NY 143: Mafia on the Gulf Coast (Game Over!)

[Princess Kiwi]

This is my first large game, so I'm going to ask: what's PLing? o.O

And:

Vote: ConSpiracy

haven't we played together before?

[Princess Kiwi]

I thought we had, your name seems familiar for some reason.

Open game 334?

[Princess Kiwi]

EBWOP: oooh I see PLing now.

@ nero:why should we PL those players? why choose Lowell, third from your list, instead of starting at the top with furcolow?

@ mb- not really, name just siunded familiar and I was trying to figure out why :p

[Princess Kiwi]

EBWOP: sounded* -_-

[Princess Kiwi]

I'll start off with this:

I don't take any tells from RVS except VCA to use later in the game. Vote hopping in RVS isn't necessarily scummy itself, as I know when I was scum I laid down one RVS vote and went straight into the game after that.

On another note, ISA:

The first thing you do is go out of your way to say that you have a townread on Amrum, and then vote for Pine who is attacking Amrum. Then you go at him and flat out tell him to drop that case. It's RVS, of course a case isn't going to be valid. It's not like with page 1 we actually have anything to work with.

Then there's the WINFOM already.

But hey, listen to this -

if breaking free from the RVS is a scumtell, why would anyone do it?

I mean, it's obvious that town does it as well. I hope I don't need to give examples for you to realize that. Surely Amrun would have played enough games to note such a trend of everyone not following the RVS to be scum, no?
The reason it is a towntell is because it ISN'T something scum would do,

Amrum wouldn't do that as scum, it's a towntell. It isn't something scum would do because scum don't want to seem scummy. Amrum obviously has enough experience to know this. -That is the definition of WINFOM IMO.

I'm wondering if this is scum buddying scum. On another note, it could be scum buddying town for towncred.

Also,

Amrum seems to have early connections with three players now:

Jumping on a PL of Lowell, 1st connection, 2nd connection the minor bussing of Pine (which, I will be keeping an eye out to see where this goes), and Isa's defense of Amrum.

Very interesting so far.

Question for Pine:

From your POV, which of Amrum's actions are scummiest: the RVS vote hopping, or his PLing?

Also, why not question Nero Cain for setting up a 4 player PL list as well? Is it just scummy that Amrum jumped on that list?

@ ConSpiracy: Your only reason for voting Amrum is that you 'love his defense', which is obvious sarcasm since you voted him. Why not question him further, or question Isa for defending Amrum, or even say why you 'love' his defense? Why not

back up your vote

?

[Princess Kiwi]

Did I say I found it scummy Nero? Nope. I questionned Pine for not going after the PL, rather than just those who jumped it. But to answer your question, suggesting a PL D1 in itself can be scummy, especially when it's a list like that. It's basically setting up an easy lynch for D1, and going on to say: but it was a PL! Everyone was for it! ...just a rather opportunistic of a thing to do.

@ Pine- So your original case was rather weak, you are now going for Amrum based off of her reactions? Care to provide quotes as to the 'serious threat'? And why no case on Isa for her defense of Amrum?

[Princess Kiwi]

I'll respond to the first part of that tomorrow when I re-read.

Second part, I have to disagree. At first I thought scum wouldn't interact with scum so strongly in the beginning, but I learned the hard way that wasn't the case. D1 my first game ever as scum was terrible, scum-buddy came in with the same kind of case you did with Amrum, and I over-reacted which caused me to get lynched. Hence why I'm considering your bussing Amrum. If that's the case, why not buddy your scum-partner as a means of being cleared by WIFOM when they turn scum? It's already worked with you, if Amrum= scum, Isa must be town (based off of that logic). I'm not clearing anyone for buddying or bussing, because I learned the hard way that wasn't always the case.

[Princess Kiwi]

Have I defended Amrum? No. I've questionned your attacks with Amrum to see where you're coming from and how strongly you feel about it, and what lengths you're willing to go through to pursue this.

Not only that, but I've made note how Amrum was pro-PL and jumped on PL wagon, and how Isa defended Amrum, and how you've bussed Amrum, both of which evolve around Amrum being scum. If Amrum isn't scum, then neither things are valid. You twist my words and turn them against me, when I start questionning you.

That

is what I have done. I've provided an unbiased opinion while at the same time taking both sides into consideration.

[Princess Kiwi]

I think Amrum

could

be scum. I'm not positive, hence why I'm not voting yet. I'm wanting to see how all of this plays out, although I'm not sure that'll happen now that people are aware I'm looking for reactions.

What do

you

think about this Nero? You haven't given any content on the Amrum-Isa/ Amrum-Pine thing yet.

[Princess Kiwi]

....Amazing how you have nothing else to say.

[Princess Kiwi]

Perhaps give content as to why you're voting Amrum, rather than wasting D1?

I'm not necessarily newbie, I'm just use to smaller games and therefore value D1 a little more than most perhaps.

Also, Nero, I've noticed that you have a tendacy to set up lynches now that I think about it. First attempt was the PL, now the opportunistic Amrum lynch. Interesting.

And how are they stupid, when I am simply tossing out ideas and trying to generate discussion when we have...3 pages to go on?

How is my questionning scummy? I'm simply trying to generate discussion ^ as pointed out above, and trying to scumhunt.

[Princess Kiwi]

Now I see where you're coming from, though I kind of stated already that it was entirely based off of the possibility of you being scum.

I'd also stated that I was simply going off of 3 pages of data and just tossing out ideas, so meh. Kind of a moot point anyway.

Which makes me a little curious to Mist: you were so gun-ho about your last vote, but now all of a sudden you've switched your attention entirely to me? What happened to:

I'm actually interested in lynching you now...
Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

? What made you drop that so suddenly, when you had been so frank about it before? Soft bussing then dropping off before it could go anywhere? Because that was literally your previous post before you jumped on me.

And...less scumhunting how? I'm not trying to dismantle arguments, simply pick them apart and make it harder for people to lie about them, which is why I'm questionning everyone instead of say just you for example.

[Princess Kiwi]

So...why pick Amrun for being a woman rather than the other female players in this game?

And why are you so gun-ho on a PL D1, and so gun-ho to get into the night phase?

And who would be your ideal lynch D2, since you're setting up lynches?

[Princess Kiwi]

BEWOP: I would also like to state that...looking from the online list, Lowell isn't online yet. Probably won't post until morning at least, so I dunno if that'll do any good.

[Princess Kiwi]

Sorry, I'm use to playing with aggressive players who often resort to personal attacks. Which is perhaps why I'm trying to be so unbiased about everything :p

And...I do find you scummy for flat out setting up lynches.

Regardless if you believe a player to be useless, that is one more number that we have against scum. Even if they don't vote and post minimum content, it'll mean one more townie scum has to lynch to win. Whereas if we get rid of players without caring their alignment as you are proposing, not only do scum get a free kill, but they also get a NK...so by N2 they could have a possibility of 2 dead townies. Which is why I think your actions are scummy, for not caring his alignment and wanting to push through to night phase.

[Princess Kiwi]

Hmmm, could've sworn I'd taken my RVS vote off. Guess not:

unvote: ConSpiracy

[Princess Kiwi]

I realize that you've been here longer than me, I was also saying I don't necessarily agree with your POV. Can't we leave it at that?

And

now

I understand where you're coming from, basing your vote off the idea that they will probably get lynched eventually.

Although I will ask you this, since you're oh so experienced: How much

do

you value D1, just so I have an idea? Or D2?

[Princess Kiwi]

You still never answered my next question:

Who would your D2 lynch most likely be, especially if Lowell flips townie?

[Princess Kiwi]

Oh, forgot about that.

What happens if all of your PLs turn out to be townies, plus the NKs? That's 8/25 slots gone in a 4 day period. How long do you plan on keeping up with this PL strategy? Also, it doesn't generate any scum-hunting to lynch simply based off of PL.

And yeah...I'm not the one setting up lynches, Nero is the one asking people to join him.

[Princess Kiwi]

Again, tossing out ideas there.

You're already -trying- to set up 2 lynches. I'm just trying to see where you would go from there if they turned out townie. To see how much thought you've given this.

[Princess Kiwi]

Dang, a page and a half in the time I was at school. *sigh*

Mist

: Sorry to hear about your cat, I know what that's like. But I'm still going to question what I see scummy.

Also, you failed to answer my very direct question in #59, and I'll bring it up again:

I'm actually interested in lynching you now...
Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

What happened to this? You were so gun-ho about this for...............one post.....then you came back and jumped on my wagon. Then, when people start getting town-reads on me (though it's sort of flip-flopping as I can see), you move to the Amrun wagon. What happened to your original post above? You were only interested in it for one post then completely shifted gear, without pursuing it any further.

Doesn't make the things she's posting correct.

I will flat out admit that at multiple points in the game, I'll just toss out ideas. They're just ideas portraying my line of thought, placing weak pressure if you will. Not all of it will be correct, and again...it's just ideas. Speculation.

In general, policy lynches are a bad idea, ESPECIALLY if they stifle conversation. However, perhaps a significant wagon on Lowell will force him to post content.

It seems to have worked, he is at least posting.

why are you even CONSIDERING a policy lynch (i hope i find out you are joking later on). as tempting as stringing up Lowell is day one, we can't learn diddly from it. who knows, he could become confirmed town later in the game and we won't have to worry about it.

I have to agree with you on this. Regardless as to whether or not you like a player, simply lynching them D1 (especially if they are town aligned), with so few posts, won't reveal any information and it's a free kill for scum.

why bring this up? what do you make of "early connections" by themselves?

Nothing by themselves, but they make for interesting speculation. Something to point out now if one of them flips scum later. Again, I'll restate that I was throwing out ideas.

@ Lowell...your vote makes no sense. I've already explained how I was trying to see how far/ dedicated Nero was willing to go with his PLs.

Princess Kiwi sure likes to make assumptions. If you thought Pine was bussing Amrun and I was buddying Amrun...why not vote Amrun? Also, in response to #38 - it's WIFOM, deal with it, but I believe it to be true,

Yes, they're just assumptions. Weak attempts at pressure, speculation. And I didn't vote Amrun, as previously stated, because those speculations are based off of Amrun being scum. I said Pine could be bussing Amrun, and you could be buddying Amrun. I never said 100%, hence why I didn't vote. I don't like to place a solid vote outside of RVS without having enough information. If I vote, it's to lynch someone.

Early scum reads are Kiwi, Isa, Amrun(but I always find her derpy and scummy so prob wrong)

It's interesting how you mention me in this now, yet you hadn't mentioned anything scummy about me before. What are your reasons for thinking I'm scummy?

To everyone having scum reads on me and Amrun, do you base them off her vote hopping and me defending it?

Originally that was my 'case' if it could be called that. Now I'm not so sure, Amrun seems to be trying to blow it off, while at the same point hasn't done much scum-hunting since, only blowing off things and resorting to small insults. That is most suspicious to me, but again, it's only a small suspicion.

I will say this, I have a fair town tell on Pine so far (due to his attempts at scum-hunting), leaning more town on Isa as she tries to scumhunt, and neutral on Nero. However, I'm starting to have a scum-read on Mist due to her wagon hopping (as pointed out before), and ignoring my very obvious question which I expect an answer to.

@ Pere- any specific reason for hopping on my wagon? Excellent content behind the vote.

[Princess Kiwi]

*headbang* Out of context. Note the word 'if' in there.

[Princess Kiwi]

Perhaps I should have said Context Clues rather than out of context.

Yes, I am arguing that a

PL

on Lowell won't reveal information D1 and would be a free kill for scum. I am not arguing that a well thought out case-oriented lynch on Lowell won't reveal information, and would be a free kill.

Yes, I added 'if' town. Because 1, I obviously don't know. 2, if you haven't noticed, I've been against a PL Lowell D1 from the start. I don't agree with PLs because lynching someone simply based off of PL, could be lynching a townie. If you actually have a case against Lowell that would be a different thing.

No, I don't know if he is town. I am simply against a PL of Lowell because he could be town and that would be a free kill.

And it wasn't strange....it was

RVS

. Look at my post with that vote. And that was an unvote that was quoted, which I'd unvoted after a vote count because it wasn't RVS anymore.

[Princess Kiwi]

Amrun- I've never played with Lowell before, so I don't know any of his meta. So I can't go by his scum or town meta.

Pine- this is your first mention that you think I could be scum- I'm curious as to your case on me if you built up a case on Amrun based off of reactions.

Pere- Yes, I unvoted my RVS because I have a tendacy to forget where they're at. Not only that, but it's completely unnecessary for my vote to remain on one person the entire time. And I have clearly been scumhunting, I just haven't found a

solid enough

reason to vote for someone. Would you like meta to prove I don't place weak votes without a case? I can pull it up.

And 2- you're puting words in my mouth. Also, you're making comparisons based entirely off of your assumption of my being scum-buddy with ConSpiracy, speculating just like I have. I didn't see a reason why I should keep my RVS, I can pull up where other people have removed their RVS in this game. My not voting isn't suspicious IMO.

And Shakespeare FTW, awesome Pine.

[Princess Kiwi]

@ Mist- what exactly were your reasons for voting SV? You never answered my question even though I have asked it, very directly, twice. You seem to ignore the question each time I ask it. Why were you so gun-ho on SV, then your next post you switch to my wagon, and now that people are suspecting you, you unvote me? Seems a little strange.

Also, I'll answer your questions tomorrow when I get off work...long day today and I get out early tomorrow, so I'll post then. I just wanted to re-ask that question before I left.

Also, Black Friday week coming up (and since I work at wal-mart, that actually takes up a lot of my time), so I dunno how much I'll be on this week. Not enough for a V/LA, but I

may

be a little lurky, working 40 hours and school. But I should be able to post in the beginning of this week, just not so much the end.

[Princess Kiwi]

Okay, catch up post coming up in a few. Quiet a bit to say. And ...walls are kind of my thing. It gets me lynched a lot, so I'll try and shorten it down from now on >.<

[Princess Kiwi]

Zombie:

Post #154. Why the vote on Amrun with no explanation? And- I find it strange that you turn the argument of being aggressive straight back onto Haze, when that was pretty aggressive yourself. I believe Haze may have been trying to ask: why bother stating that you used a die roll in the first place? That kind of takes the 'random' out of the vote, and makes it seem like you're trying to be careful...

Amrun:

158: This post is very suspicious. You haven't done any scum hunting at all this game, just defending yourself from Pine and attacking Pine as well, and pushing a PL of Lowell. 8 pages of content and virtually no scumhunting, just pushing for a Lowell lynch? That's worthy of a

FOS

.

Post 159 seems pro-town in my eyes, asking for players to stop the insults, placing a vote, and using a 'case' to back it up, while keeping it short and concise...something I have issues doing no matter what my alliance is :p

Furcolow:

Post 166: What about his opening was 'terrible?' Kind of need more reasoning than that to want to lynch a person, or at least convince others why you want to lynch that person . Really having a hard time with the last statement, because whenever I have a player going after me for

that

particular reason 'I'm too lazy to read them! Get her out!', it usually turns into: "She's on the right track, use the walls as a reason to get her out." Or trying to set up an easy lynch.

1.If Kiwi is scum, though, 2.so is Sampson. 3.I would be looking into Isa too from that post he made, I feel like he is scum with one of them.

1. Trying to wiggle yourself into my lynch without any real evidence, giving yourself the ability to say 'I suspected her from the beginning'. 2.Then setting up a Sampson lynch based off of meta, without giving reasons why. 3. Keeping your options open to Isa without explaning your reads on why you think he's scum, nor specifying which post you're referring to. Obviously trying to seem like you're scumhunting without providing actual content.

HOS

I found a better candidate then all of them, though:

Proof that you're trying to set up lynches. I wonder what your 'scumdar' looks like three pages from now? I'll have to remember this post later.

Also...going off topic with mod during day phase isn't suspicious in itself, sorry.

Post 167 &168- if you want to lynch Alabaska, why not keep your vote on him?

172- then why don't you pressure him?

Post 174- there's the pressure. What happened to Alabaska though? Jumping from lynchee to lynchee.

ConSpiracy:

Post 179- I see, though it would have been nice to have content behind the vote rather than just a vote by itself. Also, if it's classic newbscum post, why not at least place a FOS or IGMEOU?

Alabaska:

Post 180: Quoting the same thing everybody else quotes is an easy way to jump on a growing wagon. Seems really opportunistic of you. The FOS seems protown though, so kind of neutral. I'm going to re-ask this as well because I want an answer from

conspiracy

how is this post not scumhunting?

In reference to ConSpiracy's 179.

i feel only mafia bring up "wanting to survive" as being a scumtell.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Scum are more worried about being lynched than townies, especially in larger games. Of course nobody likes to get lynched, but it's not only mafia who bring up the 'wanting to survive'. I've done it in other games as townie as well.

Pine:

Basically what I understand, your issue with me is that you think I was trying to 'dismantle' your attacks against Amrun. I'm going to state this again: I was questioning your attacks to not only see how far you would be willing to go with it, but I was also curious about your case against Amrun. How much thought you'd put into it, if it was more of a pressure thing. I think I've proven in this thread that I question everything I see, and poke holes in cases to see how far people are willing to go with them. Doesn't mean I'm scum, just means I'm scumhunting.

Now that you've gotten through the small wall, these players need to pay attention to the following:

Amrun:

Suspicions? Do you honestly see Lowell as scummy, or are you just pushing for a PL along with Nero?

Nero:

Same question as Amrun.

Lowell:

More content, and I expect answers to my previous questions. Explain your scumdar with actual reasons please.

Mist:

I expect answers to my questions in my previous actual post. You ignored them the first time, I'm going to keep asking until you answer. Also it's page 8.

Furcolow:

Try adding actual content and placing actual pressure on people you want to pressure?

That's about it so far. Suspicions lie with Lowell, Furcolow, and Mist thus far. Town reads are Pine, ConSpiracy, Haze. Neutral on the rest.


I'm going to wait for responses before placing any votes.

[Princess Kiwi]

No, I was saying 'wanting to survive'

is

a nulltell, it can come from both townies and scum.

[Princess Kiwi]

Well yeah, I said that nobody wants to get lynched because soooomebody (Alabaska) brought up the 'point' that it's more likely to come from scum than town, or at least scum are more likely to use it than town. Read the whole posts please.

[Princess Kiwi]

Scum are more worried about being lynched than townies, especially in larger games.

No, I was saying 'wanting to survive'

is

a nulltell, it can come from both townies and scum.

Huh? These two statements look contradictory to me.

Not really, I said scum are

more

worried about being lynched than townies, though townies are obviously worried as well.

As far as Alabaska 202...- I kind of said the same thing you said, just in different context:

or at least scum are more likely to use it than town.

That's in the same quote you posted :p Says the same thing.


I'm going to stop my replies where I'm at and point something out while I'm still thinking about it:

woah content from lowell? oddly enough, my meta-related gut tells me this means he's scum, but i'll ignore that for now and just agree.

I actually do think Lowell is playing to his scum meta, for the record.

Do these two quotes look almost exactly the same, or is it just me? Using the same reason of meta, without providing any backing, as a means for a 'case' on Lowell.

back to content:

That being said, my suspicions so far reside with Mistbeauty and Shattered viewpoint. SV places a 'random' lynch on Mistbeauty, then unvotes in literally the next post, saying that he's useless D1 and doesn't offer any content, despite...6 pages of content at the time. To me it seems like an opt out of having to post anything that might tie him to a scum-buddy, or to get away with posting enough content to avoid prod-dodge, but at the same time not providing anything to get reads on him. Like he's trying to buy himself a night. That being said, Mistbeauty's original vote on him was like: "I want to lynch him now!", and then Mistbeauty went on and changed her vote in literally the next post, to the next big wagon.

Mist:

I will be interested to see what you have to say.

In the mean time, I think this is the most suspicious behavior thus far and is worth voting on.

Therefore,

VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint


Also,

Amrun:

Really? As far as I can see, the only thing you have done is defend yourself against Pine, attack Lowell for PL reasons and say 'he's scum because of his meta!', misrep what I said, and go back to Lowell again. You have a lot of filler posts with no real content, and I fail to see the scumhunting. You're at the top of my scumdar, right underneath SV and Mistbeauty. ABJ to follow probably.

[Princess Kiwi]

I don't see it that way, because I've been lynched as town for seeming 'too worried'...then again, scum were on that wagon as well, so meh. Kind of a moot point I'm making I guess, but it's pretty noticeable IMO from both sides, depending upon the player/ situation.

[Princess Kiwi]

Of course. As scum, I try to get past suspicions by blowing them off and say I'd rather be scumhunting then defending myself. As town, not only do I scumhunt but I also defend myself, which is in part where the walls come in play.

[Princess Kiwi]

any content to why you think he's scum Nero?

[Princess Kiwi]

I'm going to step in and say this- I have a slight town read on Nero, but I'm not going to say why. It's a pretty obvious post for those who want to look it up, but if he's town I'm not going to draw attention to the post, because it would only be beneficial for scum. But my I have a slight town read on Nero, and I'm pretty sure he isn't SK or Vigilante based off of this post. Sorry for being so vague, but it's a gut kind of thing that I can't really get much in depth about...especially not with scum reading this >.<

On another note, I have a test tomorrow so this will be my last post for the night.

[Princess Kiwi]

Sorry guys-

@ mod-

declaring V/LA until Thursday night

Sick + work + school = too much. Also, work is getting stressful the closer it gets to black friday >.<

Will be back Thursday night, but after thursday I won't be on again until Sundayish due to black friday madness at work.

Noted. - ToD

[Princess Kiwi]

Oh wow there has been a ton of posting since I went V/LA....uuum -

@ mod-

I'm extending my V/LA until Sunday, way too much to catch up on in one night and sick and black friday in just a few hours, and I have Monday completely off so I should have a vote up by Monday night, as well as reads. Sorry guys!

Noted. - ToD

[Princess Kiwi]

Will make a post in a couple hours after I've read the thread again and jotted my reads down. I'll probably read and re-read a couple of times in between, so it may take a while, but I will get it up tonight.

[Princess Kiwi]

I've been making a post for the past three hours now, which explains my lurkingdome, and I'm only half way through. I'm trying to pay attention to the minor details as well, and I'll trim it up tomorrow. I know I said I would vote/ post tonight, but the post is at least making progress, so I'll post it tomorrow. Sorry guys, but from reading the past few posts from MB, they do seem genuine to me, though I haven't read anything that lead up to this. It's just so much different than her original: blahIdon'tcareI'mnotansweringanything attitude she held in the first 10 pages. Seems like she's actually trying to scum-hunt now, but that's just my opinion. Don't know if it counts for much or not, but my two cents.

[Princess Kiwi]

Mastin: Have you said you think we're scum-buddies? Care to provide examples and what lead you to believe that? And with that I'm off for the night, will post again tomorrow.

[Princess Kiwi]

I know I promised a post tonight, but I was expecting to have the whole day off. Work called me in from 4-11PM tonight, so it'll be tomorrow since they can't call me in tomorrow. Sorry!