NY 143: Mafia on the Gulf Coast (Game Over!)

[Tajun]

Hello all!

VOTE: Zombeh-Pug

Those things creep me right out.

[Tajun]

Wow, miss a day and a half and 6 pages in... Will be a trick to keep up with this one I see.

Amrun and Nero Cain are both tough to get reads on, but interesting to watch. The only scummy seeming thing that I have seen so far has come from Shattered Viewpoint and Mist Beauty, ala these posts.

Vote: MistBeauty

Reminds me too much of Mist7676.

Hi, everyone. Don't lynch me if you know what's good for you..

Who is Mist7676? Is this association due to the word "Mist" in our usernames, or is there anything else?

I'm actually interested in lynching you now...

Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

Both of these seem... off. Not sure why, but this seems somewhat like setting up an argument for a cross bus to me. Tough to say this early though.

I hate playing multiple games with the same people at the same time. =.=

Amrun's vote was without a doubt hypocritical, and pretty bad, but not necessarily scummy. Kiwi and isa are more scummy that Amrun in my eyes. Kiwi seems to be defending/distancing already. I'm getting a vibe that she has too much knowledge.

Vote: Princess Kiwi

pedit: Amrun, this is why I dislike many of your posts. You don't answer many claims and dismiss people as stupid. This attitude will not get you very far, and turns many people against you, needlessly.

Next person to vote Amrun needs to explain their vote, not sheeping or parroting.

This (the bolded part) feels like trying too hard to seem town to me. Not bad advise in general, but on page three, with little information, and L-8 on Amrun? Certainly suspicious in my books.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mist Beauty

[Tajun]

Yeah, I assumed it was RVS more or less. It just seemed a bit strange, as did the post by Shattered Viewpoint. Shattered viewpoint's statement seemed like the kind of thing I would say as scum, hoping people would say "Scum wouldn't say anything that bizarre, he must be town". Could just be that I am way

way

overthinking it though.

My point on post 54 is the basis of most of my suspicion for Mist Beauty, post 48 was kind of after the fact.

[Tajun]

@Tajun, I don't like seeing 4 votes on someone while others have one vote at most. Makes things easier for scum. With multiple wagons of 2,3 it's not one person that EVERYONE is staring at. Asking me to explain a vote for which there is no explanation? honestly, not much to say.

Didn't really want an explanation, just thought that it seemed a bit weird. There was also a wagon on Zombeh-pug, and I really don't see a reason to object to one player being under heightened scrutiny.

unvote Princess Kiwi

I'll get in a serious vote in once thread hits 8th page, and post my reads.

Looking forward to it, on 9 now.

Yeah, I assumed it was RVS more or less. It just seemed a bit strange, as did the post by Shattered Viewpoint.

Shattered viewpoint's statement seemed like the kind of thing I would say as scum

, hoping people would say "Scum wouldn't say anything that bizarre, he must be town". Could just be that I am way

way

overthinking it though.

My point on post 54 is the basis of most of my suspicion for Mist Beauty, post 48 was kind of after the fact.

as per what i bolded:
why did you vote Mist Beauty, then, and not Shattered Viewpoint?

Here's how I saw it while I was reading: Shattered Viewpoint's post 30 seemed off, Mist Beauty's post 54 seemed more off, and when I ISO'ed Mist Beauty I saw her counter voting the other person I thought scummy and thought that they might be a team. 54 at the time was the most scummy thing IMO, and therefore earned my vote. However, Shattered Viewpoint's second post more than makes up the slack.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

You're not off the hook that easily, post reads if nothing else. Looking forward to yours as well Mist Beauty.
@ConSpiracy: Why the town read on Furcolow?
@Sampson: Do you still feel Isa is the scummiest?
@Zombeh-Pug: Any actual content to post yet?

On the other side, Amrun and Bogre seem pretty town. Nero Cain, why did you want to PL these two? That is, is their play this game out of their meta? I suppose Bogre is lurking a bit, as you stated he might.

[Tajun]

Shattered Viewpoint is an alt of Nobody Special. He's trying a new strategy, which I've observed in [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]. This behavior is consistent with those. Efforts have been made to not tolerate his obnoxious lurking, but I'm starting to see a method to his madness and a pattern. To be sure, this behavior helps his scum meta, but standing back and watching the game while aloof from its day-to-days has some benefits for Town as well. My strategy for dealing with him is to let him go for a while and have him accumulate enough content to make a good read.

Thus far, it's 100% null, and the wagon against him is based on a "We don't like lurky assholes" policy lynch.

You have absolutely got to be fucking kidding me. We shouldn't lynch him because he is trying to build up his scum meta? No. Fuck that. There are precious few times when I would actually support a policy lynch day 1, but a person intentionally playing suboptimally in order to make it easier for him to play as scum is one of them. Fuck him, and fuck his new meta. I suggest everyone on this site policy lynches him until he realizes that this is unacceptable.

Confirm vote: Shattered Viewpoint

The reasoning on Alabaska J is overstated, as he pointed out. But I am curious about this:

We should prob be lynching one of Sampson, BV, Alabaska.

vote:Alabaska

reasons are overrated

I agree.

Why did you leave Amrun out?

Come again? You were the one with the reasoning. What are you talking about?

[Tajun]

My apologies to all town in this game.

I am indeed in this game.

I seem to have fallen behind on this game, dammit. Anyways, I just want to ask Zombie pug a question: Do you use the random.org for all 3 games that you've played before?

@Tajun: SV plays like this in both his alt and his main, through lurking. I don't think he's building a new meta specifically for scum. Also, we still have a little over a week for our lynch, I don't see why we should settle for a policy right now. Maybe if there was 3 days left and there was no way of avoiding that wagon. But not now.

Ah. Well that is different then, I was under the impression that Nobody Special was far more active (I read a couple of his games, and I don't remember that level of lurking, or anything even close to requesting to not be lynched day 1 since he is "useless then"). My apologies. Is there reason to believe that he will respond to pressure, and start playing more actively if he is the target of a major wagon? (at a meta level that is)

Wait.

Shattered Viewpoint signed up for this game before he got his role right?

So then "There are precious few times when I would actually support a policy lynch day 1, but a person intentionally playing suboptimally in order to make it easier for him to play as scum is one of them." is failing to address the fact that there is still absolutely no reason to suggest that he is scum, short of trying to get to day 2 without doing anything. I think there are players with bigger crimes though, like most of the other people with votes on them.

Okay, I'll bite. What crimes have Princess Kiwi and Super Smash Bros. Fan committed? I've thought about the arguments against them, and they seem pretty weak IMO. There are however people out there with no content whatsoever, who might need a bit of pressure to get going. Seriously, why do they play the game?

PEdit:"As this is a normal game, scum should have pre game talk. Furcolow as scum would post in the pre game talk as every scum would do and notices when the game starts when he is not allowed to post in the quicktopic any more."

But all that the mod said was that he had been informed that the game started (he didn't say when he was or anything like that). I don't really see why this makes him town.

[Tajun]

Agreed with Zombeh-Pug. Mist Beauty is massively scummy, and every time she posts she becomes more so. She waits for mastin2 to call her out before she does anything, then agrees with one of his reads (me) and attacks me. Opportunistic much? And I love her strategy, going after me after someone else comes after me first, claiming that I am trying to push an easy lynch. Then she (guess what) tries to push my easy lynch! Loving the hipocrisy Mist.

Also, unless Trumpet of Doom is the type to put two Bulletproof Townies in the game, she is confirmed scum, since

I am bulletproof

as well.

I still think that SV is (one of) her partners, and I must admit I cannot see the connection to Nero Cain that people seem to be coming up with.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mist Beauty

What exactly is the case on me? People said I was trying to push the easy SV lynch, but that was a brief misunderstanding (I thought SV was trying to build a scum meta) at about 2 in the morning. Other than that, anything at all? Mastin, you claim you thought I was scum from my first post. Reasoning please?

[Tajun]

Pug is deffiantly scum. He calls Mist caught scum but doesn't vote.

What exactly is the case on me? People said I was trying to push the easy SV lynch, but that was a brief misunderstanding (I thought SV was trying to build a scum meta) at about 2 in the morning. Other than that, anything at all? Mastin, you claim you thought I was scum from my first post. Reasoning please?

Actually, after reading your ISO you don't seem all that scummy. Don't bother asking Mastin. He's not going to respond. A. He doesn't have a case B. He's very possibly scum. And Mastin is listing you as scum and meta says he lists his scum buddies and busses them.

Hey Lowell-you don't think Tanjun is scum, but you also think one of them is lying? If whomever we lynch today flips town then are you going to vote the other one tomarrow?

No, the most likely scenario is scum gambiting on one player becoming confirmed town.

The problem? This allows Mastin to push for the next persons lynch the next day. Discounting this its possibly a town w/ a scum CC or scum w/ a town CC is both nearsighted and stupid.

And I agree with (most of) his reads.

Which reads and why do you think I'm scummy?

This is absolutely brilliant. I'm not all that scummy by virtue of my own posts. But you think Mastin is scum, and because I am one of the 5 people he thinks is scum, he is bussing me and therefore I am scum? And here I was labouring under the impression that you were one of the sane people here.

I think I have figured out why you are voting me. It's because you and Mist are scum, and you want to make sure that the town lynches me first to discredit Mastin. I'm happy with your death, as long as the two of you get taken out I come out ahead, whether I get lynched along side you or not.

Pug is deffiantly scum. He calls Mist caught scum but doesn't vote.

1: Someone failed to note the votecount.
2: Chainsaw defense of Mist noted.

Actually, after reading your ISO you don't seem all that scummy.

"Actually, you don't seem that scummy yet I'm still voting to lynch you, anyway."

This allows Mastin to push for the next persons lynch the next day. Discounting this its possibly a town w/ a scum CC or scum w/ a town CC is both nearsighted and stupid.

On the contrary. I've thought things through.

Why on earth would scum CC a bulletproof claim they knew was town, when said player was recieving heavy flak from their claim already and very possibly would be lynched without interference? They wouldn't, so that scenario is impossible.

And why would you as a town BP CC someone who is likely to get lynched without the CC? Granted, this one is more likely than the first (as there are some really stupid town players), but any intelligent player knows not to immediately counterclaim scum claiming their role when said scum is already being lynched for it.
Furthermore, there's the matter of Tajun's wording about possibly being more than one BP in the game. That kind of caution is something easily thrown in as scum, but has very little point of being said as town.


Plus they're both individually scummy.
Plust their interactions are strong evidence of a mutual bus.
Plus their gambit is drawing attention fairly successfully away from you.

Combined, it makes the logical conclusion that you are clearly all scum. You, strong PR. (Likely either rolecop or roleblocker.) Mist/Tajun, probably both goons with a slight chance of Godfather.

Why on earth wouldn't I CC as town? I'm not a NK target right now, thanks to your case on me. Wait, did I say case? Because as far as I can see, you haven't given any reasons for your suspicion. The best thing I can do with my role is make damn sure that the scum gets lynched, and that is what I did. If I was a doc, or a cop, maybe I would have been hesitant, but outing myself as BP in order to make sure scum get lynched seems like a pretty damn good trade to me. It's not like I'm going to get NK'ed for it.

As for my wording, give me a break. Your grasping at straws is noted.

[Tajun]

For what??? For calling Mist scum and not voting her? You do realize that he was already voting her, do you not?

Make a case! Everyone! If you are going to vote someone or point at them as scum, give reasons for it. Good mercy, that is mafia 101.

[Tajun]

I think he is so massively arrogant that he feels the cases make themselves, and he shouldn't have to say them. It is annoying, frustrating, and tremendously anti-town, but not inherently scummy. He is by far and away the worst offender that way, and I more or less just took out my annoyance on you.

[Tajun]

Case requested. Seriously.

[Tajun]

I suppose that I deserved that. I am rather severely annoyed with the disturbing trend of saying "Player X is scummy" and leaving it at that which has taken grip in this town however. Please do make cases, be them against myself or anyone else, if you are going to accuse them. Even if it is just "my gut tells me so". Because otherwise the town has no reason to listen to you whatsoever.

[Tajun]

... You know mastin, I like that. Usually when I am accused I get pretty angry, but I don't even know what to say to you. You're either a genius, or a crazy man who hit his head and has fallen into a perfect strategy.

How about I ask you this instead: How certain are you that I am scum? Give me a number, I'd like something to hold you to. Similarily on Mist and Nero.

[Tajun]

Seriously, do the scum in this game know how to do anything but set up false dichotomies? The classic "if you're wrong, you must be scum" theme keeps cropping up over and over again. It's a logical fallacy.

Who are you talking about here?

[Tajun]

Seriously, do the scum in this game know how to do anything but set up false dichotomies? The classic "if you're wrong, you must be scum" theme keeps cropping up over and over again. It's a logical fallacy.

Who are you talking about here?

You, 468. Your talk of a number Mastin and/or I can be "held to". Calling it a "dichotomy" isn't technically accurate, as it isn't a choice between two things, but it is very much the same concept. You're demanding certitude from people who by definition are in the dark and guessing based on a system of assumptions and inference. Quantitative analysis of individual human behavior* is pretty much the ultimate fallacy, and trying to force-fit interpretation and inference into numbers is laughable and deceitful.

*Quantitative analysis of human GROUP behavior is actually very possible, and somewhat accurate. Its accuracy only becomes statistically significant with a very large sample size, just as random rolls of a 20-sided die only become predictable at high sample sets. I think I've had this conversation a few too many times...

PE: Hey, some more self-obsessed, paranoid scum.

Actually, from the sounds of his posts, I figured he was going to say 100% on me, and I just wanted to rub it in after the game that he was super arrogant and wrong, to try to curb his ridiculous behaviour for the future. Didn't want a number from you, because you're not going around saying "Man I am a super genius, I got all five scum day one, boy you guys should feel proud to bask in the glory that is me." But it's interesting to note that you overreacted to a post that wasn't even requesting anything from you. For the record, you have been giving reasons for your posts, and don't come off as ridiculously arrogant, so I saw no reason to ask you the same question.

[Tajun]

Nero, do you honestly think Mastin and Pine are a scumteam? Really? This would be the most blatant scum buddying I have ever witnessed. I might be willing to believe one is scum, but I doubt very much that both are.

[Tajun]

So you think it is more likely that Mastin is scum if Pine flips scum than town?

Also, still waiting for any reasoning to be given for your vote on Pug, which you dropped almost immediately.

[Tajun]

Do you think Pine is scummy?

I'm not sure one way or the other. I had a pretty good town read on him before Mastin showed up, but since then he has been acting a bit haywire. I really don't think that he and Mastin are a team (masons maybe, but very unlikely scum). I don't like the fact that he ignored Mist's posting almost entirely until it was almost certain that she would be lynched, then moved her to near the top of his scum list without reasoning, smoothly enough to seem like she was there all along. He's a maybe right now, it definitely wouldn't surprise me.

[Tajun]

OH REALLY? THE ONE PLAYER WHO I SUSPECT THROUGHOUT THE GAME, GARNERING VOTES ON THIS SCUMMY WAGON JUST HAPPENS TO HAVE THE EXACT SAME ROLE, COUNTERCLAIMING BULLETPROOF TOWNIE? REALLY?!?

You suspected me throughout the game? Then why in the hell did you not say anything until Mastin went after me? Feel free to check your own ISO next time before you pull this kind of BS statement out. Speaking of which, where in the hell is your case on me??? Unless I am blind, no one has actually said why they think my posts are scummy, yourself included.

But I will answer your questions. Yes, I have a vest, I wear it only at night which leads me to believe I might be daykillable, and no, it does not last for at least 3 nights. 2 Questions for you: If you do get shot at night, do you find out about it, and will it protect you from 3rd party weapons (knives, etc.)?

No one hammer her until she answers.

[Tajun]

...I'll admit, Mist definitely seems townier here. Frankly Mist, I don't think Mastin is scum, which is why I haven't been attacking him. I'm not sure about Pine either, tbh, although I don't like either of their play town or not.

You said you disagreed with my posts, but you did not call me scum. Why not, I do not know, but the first accusation shot my way was by Mastin, and I challenge you to find a single one before that.

I have never heard of a transferrable vest, so I posted what I saw in my PM, which was that at night I put on my vest and go to bed. You are correct in that I am wearing a non-infinite vest. For my own questions, I also have no knowledge of 3rd party weapons, but I am informed if a NK attempt resolves on me and fails. The third party weapons question was a test, I was hoping that you would make something up and out yourself as a BP SK, for whom there would be no reason to include such a point.

Hmm, that's true enough.

mastin is slipping away slowly from that town-read area, but Pine is doing it as well but faster. If Mist flips town (though she certainly does not seem to be town), we lynch Tajun, and if he TOO flips town...well, let's just say mastin and Pine won't be in good positions.

If Mist and Tajun did both flip town, I would be wary of Isa based on this post. It blatantly sets up the lynches of Pine and mastin for basically being wrong.

scumpoints here.

I'm going to look for posts like this.

but, vigpool:

mastin2
bvoigt
zombiepug
shattered viewpoint
Tajun/Mist Beauty (whoever survives, or if both of us make it and we lynch scummastin, let cops confirm)

Why scumpoints here? That seemed like an exceedingly good point to me. Why do you disagree? Also, after running a mob on me for trying to get SV lynched, you are now trying to get him killed? I must admit, I don't understand you here.

[Tajun]

Either way, you're just filling up the thread with contentless, vacuous crap and distracting everyone else.

Avoiding spam is precisely the reason I am not responding to you. You've proven yourself to be epically failing by epically flailing. (Say that five times fast. ) You're really lynching yourself, and therefore, there is no need for me to intervene.

Mastin: Have you said you think we're scum-buddies? Care to provide examples and what lead you to believe that? And with that I'm off for the night, will post again tomorrow.

Where *haven't* I?

No, seriously. You've been a scumread of mine since before I even joined the game.

Mist, Nero, Tajun, Kiwi, and looking more like MacDougall with every passing second...

Yeah. This game's won.

Alright mastin, why MacDougall? I ask this in spite of the fact that you are going to ignore the question and post about how it is obvious and he is practically lynching himself, without giving a single reason, in the hopes that at some point in the future, when you are trying to railroad MacDougall, and it has become clear that I am town, one of the ACTUALLY HELPFUL people in this game will return to this post, think about it, reread your posts and realize that you haven't given any reasons whatsoever for your suspicion and will ignore you, rather than blindly following your read.

But by all means prove me wrong and give a reason for a change.

PEdit: I would be happy to switch to Nero Cain or Shattered Viewpoint, I am far less sure about you than I was two pages ago. Pine I do find a bit scummy, Mastin I do not. And I maintain that I would be utterly shocked to see that they both were. And I am certainly wary of that fact, but the simple fact remains that if I was in their position, and unaware of the fact that I was town, I might be making the same argument. I am not going to call him scum for saying something that I might well say as town.

One thing that is bothering me is that they repeatedly mentioned the possibility that one of us might be a Godfather, thus eliminating the chance to clear us via cop result, and guaranteeing our lynch. I can see no protown reason for that suspicion, it seemed tacked on merely to eliminate the possibility of clearing us without a flip, which I find extremely suspicious.

[Tajun]

Haze has posted all of 8 times, sorgster 5, and Lowell 8. A good third of the town has not weighed in on the current situation. I can't possibly fathom what makes them all town in your eyes. But thank you for answering this point.

PEdit:

But by all means prove me wrong and give a reason for a change.

That comment was directed at Mastin, who has often irked me by not posting reasoning.

[Tajun]

I should be in bed too... I'll unvote for now, and review in the morning.

UNVOTE:

[Tajun]

Alright, thought about it, and sorry Mist, I simply can't see you flipping town. Your posts in the last few days have been townier, but your previous scuminess and posting can't be ignored. And I find it highly doubtful that TOD would include two BP townies, especially wherein one has a vest and learns about nightkill attempts on him, and one does not. Post 599 strikes me as trying to scare me off the lynch, which it almost did, and that's simply not a pro-town move.

VOTE: Mist Beauty

And CS, I have a bulletproof vest. I wear it. It's what makes me bulletproof. I don't see where you get flavour out of that.

[Tajun]

Tajun.
How did he know you were wearing a vest when he doesn't?

I haven't the slightest idea, but it is a safe bet that a bulletproof townie is so because he is wearing a bulletproof vest.

I replaced in this game yesterday tajun. 5 posts seems a good amount for 1 day.

Wasn't a criticism of you, it was a questioning mastin's methodology. Basically he said MacDougall was likely scum because he thought everyone else was town, and I wanted to know how he got that from < 10 posts by some players.

@Tajun: Whaat? What about MB's early posting makes her so scummy and irredeemably scummy?

The way you jumped onto her wagon "I just can't see you flipping town" seems really suspect.\

And this vest business I'm not sure what to make of it.

And Mastin I didn't vote cause I didn't read a good part of this thread. I still haven't.

Anyways

VOTE: Tajun

She did nothing of any consequence prior to post 313, then when a wagon begins to materialize on her she agrees with everyone who has said anything positive about her all game and goes on to attack me, one of the first people to go after her, and also on mastin's list. She attacks mastin's methodology (rightly so) but says that she agrees with his reasoning about me, of which he posted none. This screams of opportunism. At that point she went crazy, posting massive amounts of reads on everyone, and insisting that I need to be lynched, with no reasoning until I demanded it of her. This reads of caught scum flailing. She claimed bulletproof and that she couldn't post anymore until deadline, a massive overreaction to a small wagon on her (2 at that point). There is no pro-town reason to do that, it is a survival move against the best interests of the town, which screams of scum/SK. Although her recent posting has been better, she has demonstrated time and time again scum motivation in her posting, and I have no reason to believe her claim, since it is unlikely that TOD would include two bulletproof townies, especially with such different role pms.

PEdit: I am a 1/2 shot bulletproof town (I'd rather not say which, unless people say that I must), it has nothing to do with nights.

[Tajun]

Most drastically of all, she has shown no interest in who is actually posting scummily, she has attacked everyone who has anything bad to say about her. I can't fathom why town would do this.

[Tajun]

Your definition of scummy players are anyone who disagrees with you. Mastin goes after you and he is scummy. Pine goes after you and he is scummy. SV switches onto you and he turns from "how is this guy the leading wagon" to scummy. I start listening to you for a minute and a half last night and suddenly I'm town, then I think better of it and am scummy again. I haven't gone after mastin because I think he is town, and you critisize me for not acting in my own best interests by trying to get my attacker lynched. Every time anyone has attacked you you have returned the favour, and I am getting more convinced by the minute that you will flip SK.

[Tajun]

Yes, you gave me the chance to switch off of you, which I fortunately rejected, and because of my not bowing to your tremendous ego you voted me again. Lets add Zombie-Pug and myself to that, and look, we're up to 5. How about bvoigt? Let's make it 6 shall we.

[Tajun]

Wow, I almost missed this.

Sooooo....

Zombiepug, Tajun, mastin (3 guaranteed scum, slam dunk/homerun/touchdown)

possible extra partners: shattered viewpoint, pine, Lowell, bvoigt

Vote Count:

Mist Beauty (9, L-2):

Zombeh-Pug

,

bvoigt

,

Lowell

, Isa,

mastin2

,

Pine

, sorgster,

Shattered Viewpoint

,

Tajun

Tajun (4, L-7): Furcolow, Sampson, ConSpiracy, Haze
Shattered Viewpoint (3, L-8): Alabaska J, Bogre, Princess Kiwi
Alabaska J (2, L-9): Amrun, PeregrineV
sorgster (1, L-10):

MacDougall

zMuffinMan

Not Voting (2): Mist Beauty, Nero Cain

11 votes are required to lynch, 6 at deadline.
If deadline were to hit right now, Mist Beauty would be lynched.

Deadline:

Wednesday, November 30, ~11:59 PM US CST (GMT-6) (

(expired on 2011-12-01 02:00:00)

)

And I am making this too easy?

Quote tags fixed. - ToD