New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Before I drop my vote I'd like to hear what Kamrun, Jason and Alice all have to say about their results from the Night.

MOD - Do we have any recovered files to reference. I'll be honest ... things are a bit hazy without past pages to refer to after this long break.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Updated Claims List –

DarthYoshi: FBI Agent
Alice: Tracker
Jason: Watcher

MOI: 2 Shot Doctor
RedFF: Bodyguard
Ghostlin: Neighborizer – N1 - ??? / N2 - ???
Kamrun: Jailkeeper / Neighbor N?

Thor/Jon: VT
DV: VT
Havingfitz: VT
Nobody Special: VT
Snake VT

Already Flipped –

IAI – Mafia Goon
ZMuffin – Vanilla Cop
RC / Camn / Palisade / Baseline – VT

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Does anyone remember what Muffin's results were?

Muffin had ‘Not Vanilla’ results on myself and IAI if I remember correctly.

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I investigated Thor/Jon, who visited no one, which at least doesn't disprove his VT claim.

Wait … you chose to track the person Muffin was supposed to confirm as Vanilla last night? Please explain your thought process there.

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I thought redFF was going to be guarding our VT Cop? WTF?

VOTE: redFF

Are you not a bodyguard or did you decide the cop didn't deserve your protection?

So despite the fact that Jason never outed his claimed second visitor and put IAI at L-1 to quick-self-hammer ending the day you feel the need to immediately vote redFF without a word from Jason or redFF?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: Night 1 is Camn (done by Con), Night 2 was Kamrun. I can declare N3 if you like, but it was successful.

Ok, thanks. I just wanted confirmation going forward.

Yes, I really want more than "Looking at logs" for the reason why redFF of all people was Jailed.

And to prod along the pokey little puppy of the thread -

VOTE: Jason

[MagnaofIllusion]

The question is: Why did scum kill muffin, considering likelihood (from their PoV) of him

being watched

/protected?

I'll most likely vote jason

as soon as he posts.

Let's play a game ... it's called "What is completely wrong with the bolded?"

You can get free internet cookies if you can provide the correct (and rather obv) answer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fact: Ghostlin is a confirmed neighborizer and is therefore (IMO) town. I have never played in a game where the person doing the neighborizing was scum, therefore...for me...Ghostlin is town. Unless Ghostlin and his selected neighbor are all scum working together on a master gambit which I doubt is the case.

Terrible terrible logic right here. Off the top of my head as to Scum Neighborizors –

iPod Mafia
JasonT’s first TV Mafia (actually had both a Town and Scum Neighborizor)
Mina’s really already over Large Normal that got wiped by the Great Crash.
Storm of Swords Mafia

All these games have happened in the last year or so with scum neighborizors. There are probably tons others I’m not directly thinking of. So your limited personal experience is a poor reason to call Ghostlin Town.

SnakePlissken and Nobody Special are two players that have been quite and have gotten some suspicion their way. Snake's play seems to match the meta I have for him in my mind when he is town and I have leaned town on him most of the game. NS....perhaps a little less of a town read than Snake but I still come into D4 seeming to recall I had a town read on him.

So did you research Snake and NS scum meta to support these stance perchance?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 1pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

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I actually didn't remember that Muffin was supposed to confirm Thor as Vanilla XP. If I did, I would have chosen someone else.

Tell me then – when did you send in your Night action choice? Was it pre or post-Great Crash?

I actually looked back at the flavor of the kills. What do you (or everyone else who hasn't chimed in on this) think about the two different kill flavors?

Could be meaningful if Normal games are forbidden from having individual kill flavors for Mafia team members, in that it says we have two discrete sources of kills (aka a Serial Killer). If there is not a direct prohibition to this it is not useful at all to determine whether a Serial Killer.

Kamrun, MOI, who did you target N1?

I targeted Deas Night 1 and if memory serves Kamrun targeted IAI both N1 and N2.

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MoI: I don't get the problem, unless you're saying Jason's town.

That post reads to me as “Faked Town Concern”. I’ll explain for the non-scum in the audience –

Here again is what you originally posted –

The question is: Why did scum kill muffin, considering likelihood (from their PoV) of him being watched/protected?

I'll most likely vote jason as soon as he posts.

The first sentence in itself is basically fluff - you want to look like you are putting in 'Town effort' but there is nothing to be gained. It questions why the Cop with the proven ability to catch ANY scum (he was able to successfully catch a Mafia Goon so no Mafia was off limits and I suspect a Serial Killer would also be found in this manner) was killed at Night. So the reason he was killed is pretty clear - muffin was a threat to whatever remaining anti-Town factions we have. But additionally it provides the reason why said kill didn’t make sense is that scum would fear killing him with the “likelihood that he was being watched/protected”. The only reason the watched would make any sense from your perspective to be in that sentence is if

YOU

thought Jason was a Town Watcher. It seems pretty unlikely that the Mafia would fear being watched by their own member

Then you follow it up with an immediate “I’m voting for Jason as soon as he posts”. Clearly this says you think he is scum who needs to die and are only waiting (another ‘Look at me I’m totes Pro-Town’ fluff) until he gives whatever information that has been requested of him.

So back to back you’ve posted statements that logically come from conflicting points of view. Which is a pretty clear sign that your posting is artificial and calculated as opposed to being from a pure Townie perspective.

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@ MOI....IMO people base their opinion on personal experience. My personal experience is that scum aren't neighborizors. Could there be cases where they are? Sure. But I'm content to consider Ghostlin town for the time being.

As for Smake and NS...I don't do meta other than what my recollections of a player are. Kind of like how I'm inclined to consider you town ATM....based on my previous experiences playing with you as town.

The bolded, in regards to my point, isn’t valid at all. Your ‘personal experience’ of never seeing a Scum Neighborizor and using it as the sole reason why you are calling Ghostlin Town reads to me as scum stretching to give Town reads (since they already know who isn't Mafia). I’ve given you 4 direct examples of games where Scum Neighborizors exist. Your response here is basically “Well I’ve never seen one so I’m just going to assume Ghostlin is Town.”

In regards to Snake and NS I feel the same way – you are giving Town reads based on half-assed meta (“I’ve only seen them as Town”) without any desire to see whether they play similarly as scum.

Both are completely lazy methods of read justification and say to me that you are fabricating your reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: I'm town, so... nah.

What a scintillating response. Yeah, not just taking your word for it.

I will explain though. It basically confirms to me that Jason is scum (well before this latest thing).

I have other thoughts which I want to share tomorrow (although they're probably nothing special). What I don't get is why people are siding with obvscum Jason against me...

Why would I express a problem with being tracked if I was going to undertake the kill?

Why haven’t you actually been posting your ‘reasons’ before this?

Why bother expressing a problem with being tracked at all if you are VT as you claimed?

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@Jason: Claim who your second result was N1 or N2 in your next post or I'm going to assume that you're confirmed scum. We've been asking for 2 in game days and you've constantly dodged the question.

He’s have already done it if he wasn’t scum. Just vote him (if you aren't already ... forget where your vote is currently).

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@MOI...kiss my arse. You find scum your way and I will find scum mine.

See … I don’t think you are ‘finding scum’. I think you are scum. So, no, I’m not going to ignore your illogical and scummy posting. Had Jason not committed to being scum with his end of Day 3 posting I would be pushing hard on you right now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because tracking me is much worse than tracking someone else.

Why the recent negativity towards me?

You need to explain why tracking you is much worse than tracking someone else. We’ve mass-claimed so all information regarding roles SHOULD be on the table.

Tracking you is no worse than tracking any other claimed VT. It confirms you actually didn’t go anywhere which helps support your VT claim and confirms you aren’t the hypo-Serial Killer we may or may not have.

The only reason I can see for you to not want to be tracked is if you lied about your role. Which at this point is much more likely to come from scum than Town. For example – a scum roleblocker doesn’t want tracked regardless of whether they are making the kill or not.

Jon, why don't you think appeals to emotion are a towntell?

Deas why don’t you think AtE are anything but Null?

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I sent mine in twice, once pre-crash and once post-crash.

Did you change your action or was it the same both times?

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Quickly, to Alice's point above, my case on DV did indeed rely on a lack of commitment and opportunism, but his balking at being tracked raised a lot of eyebrows as well, IIRC.

IIRC you were linking Deas and Kamrun together in your suspicion of Deas. Is this correct?

But if

he's bussing his buddy

, I'll happily take the assist. Besides, if anyone remembers the pre-crash game, I would have gleefully lynched DV then, too

Here is my huge problem with the bolded – why as the FBI Agent aren’t you considering that Jason might be selling out the Serial Killer? If you think Jason is a scum watcher that should be the first line of thought for you if your role is what you claim it is.

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I caught DV making a kill... I am confirmed as a watcher by Alice.

Voting/Hammering me would be uberscummy.

Or you are lying scum-bag Watcher trying to survive one more day and either framing Town or selling out the Serial Killer. Neither of which is a good reason not to hang you.

Also, why would I set up a direct one on one, as scum with so many left still in the game? knowing full well if DV flips town I am done for?

You were a dead man for facilitating your partner’s IAI self-quickhammer. Setting up a 1 v 1 that saves you one more day helps out your faction. DERP.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again HF's arguments sound logical. I need to "park" my vote somewhere, so I'll come back and read any new posts before I leave and then decide where it will go.

What specifically about Having’s arguments ‘sound logical’?

@ MoI What is your opinion of Alice?

My current read (as it has been since Day 2) is Town. I’m not thrilled with the track choice but unless Jason somehow flips Town the odds that he is a scum-Tracker are pretty slim IMO.

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I already said this--because after three consecutive one-flips, I actually am seriously doubting that there is a serial killer, and am thinking that my role is simply a red herring.

Does anyone know the standards regarding Normality for including roles that are red-herrings? I can’t see anything on the Wiki page and am by no means an expert on what knocks something out of normality these days. I remember MD threads where some people expressed that a Miller without a Cop is Bastard modding unless explicitly worded in a way to make it clear the companion role might not be in the game.

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JasonT1981 - 5 (Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVail, Jon_h61)
DeasVail - 5 (JasonT1981, Ghostlin, redFF, DarthYoshi, havingfitz)

Not Voting: (Snakeplissken, Nobody Special)

Prods have been sent to Snakeplissken and Nobody Special.

Two things I’d like to comment on here –

1. I very much dislike that the direction of the day are currently in the hands of Snake and NS, two mega-lurkers.
2. Ghostlin – look at your companions on the Deas wagon. I’m not saying Deas is Town but look at who is with you there. I’d be allergic to having fellow wagon-mates of Jason, redFF and having.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: I didn't realise at the time that saying I didn't want to be tracked may make it more likely for me to be tracked, but I knew that there was no way I was going to be visiting anybody, and a no result on me would not have made a difference as to anyone's read of me. It'd be better to have the chance to actually get a result.

Please no one hammer me before expressing intent to. I have some thoughts I want to get out there, but would rather wait until after Jason's lynch.

Why exactly are you holding back your thoughts? You do understand as a claimed VT there is no reason to show intent to hammer at this stage on you, right? It's in your best interests if you are Town to be giving your reads and thoughts at all times.

Who should Alice have been tracking then? Do think all the scum (be they Mafia or possible Serial Killer) are solely found in the claimed Powerroles?

Because I'm town and if Jason is lynched, I'll be close to confirmed.

Um,whut?

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Uhmmm.... Memory fails me, but I think it might have been the same. That being said, I don't recall Muffin saying he was going to investigate Thor. Can anyone else confirm whether Muffin said he would investigate Thor? If he did, then derp on me.

So you are unable to navigate to your ‘Sent Messages’ folder to see what you PMed to Zach?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I agree on your pt 1. As for your pt 2...convenient of you to avoid calling Deas town but apparently feel those on his wagon in some way indicate it is a mislynch. If that is not correct please explain. The jason vote on Deas is obv given they are accusing each other of lying, but Ghostlin is ~confirmed town (IMO) and I am town. And redFF if scum is more likely IMO to be the sk...so he is looking for scum as well. I see no issues with those on Deas wagon.

Where did I say I had a Town Deas read? And your attempt to discredit my reads on you and the others pushing Deas over Jason is noted.

Jason was a scum-read before today so it’s hardly a new development for me to find his wagon position suspect.

Ghostlin is Town but not for your scummy reasoning.

You can save your ‘I’m Town’ – to loosely quote Shawshank “Didn’t you hear – we’re all Innocent here in Shawshank”.

I’d like your reasoning for excluding possible Serial Killers from consideration of the merits of the make-up of a wagon re: redFF.

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Magna, I see nothing wrong with wanting intent to hammer. It is a small request if I'm about to be lynched I think. I may even fabricate a claim.

I’ll put it this way – a single indication you are changing your claim and you pretty much have my vote 100% until you are dead.

Again – why are you not sharing this information you claim to have?

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The way DV is acting, I am so very, very down for giving him rope. I think Ghostlin is absolutely right that a DV scumflip does not help Jason in the slightest--they could well be in cahoots.

Meh. I doubt very much they are partners given what I know of Jason-scum. Most likely if both are Scum Deas would be the hypo Serial Killer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

=======[] Ghostlin!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll have more time in the morning - I would really like to hear redFF's actions.

@Deas

- only other obvious style role is Roleblocker / Framer alt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's nothing I can put my finger on right this second, and I'd have to read Alice & jason in iso together, but I could see her actions as very hard bussing.

So what do you think regarding Alice’s claim –

1. That Alice made the whole ‘Tracker’ claim up and has fake her way through 5 nights of results?
2. That the Mafia have both a Watcher and a Tracker?

And please tell me that you possibly think Alice could be scum after this.

Also, MoI is almost totally scum by dint of still being alive. If there's four mafia, no SK (meaning DY is in fact a RH), then it could be Alice + MoI.

So you suspect Alice for bizzare reasons, me simply because I’m alive, and come to the conclusion that we are scum together.

Why, all of the sudden, are you so active in this game NS?

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Also, MOI, weren't you weak doc? You targeted me on N2, which means I'm not scum if you accept MOI-town premise. Who did you target on N1?

Nope, straight up regular Doc (aside from 2 shot). And once again I targeted Deas N1 as he was my strongest living Town read.

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DeasVail, for reasons that should be obvious.

Why didn’t you investigate redFF as Ghostlin requested and you agreed to?

As an aside, is anyone else surprised that MOI is still alive? I know it's a weak argument, but really, there are a bare handful of players for whom being alive this long in a game would be any sort of a scumtell, but he's in that bare handful. I mean, for fuck's sake, his title is "...was killed N1."

Let’s discuss this. I really want to see you reason this through in public. Please agree or disagree with the following statements –

1. I received significant suspicion Day 1 (and Day 2) due to my decision to hang back (preserving my ability to get both protects off) that I would be viewed as a viable mislynch to scum.
2. That strictly on Power Role claims that were made public during the full-claim (or prior) I was far from a priority target for scum.

Once you’ve addressed those we can happily discuss. Because the “Why is you alive” is an unanswerable question on my end. The only response I could possibly have regardless of my alignment is “because I am not a priority threat to scum at this point”.

Finally one more question for you – did you attack me Day 1 for questioning Jason’s early claim? I believe that is the case but without archives I can’t be certain.

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Guarded kamrun, guess i was blocked -___________-

So you’ve guarded the players that got Nightkilled twice in a row?

Why did you decide to guard Kamrun the person who blocked you from guarding Muffin?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If as a whole Town decides it needs to be either redFF or me I’ll vote for redFF. But until we get a mass consensus from that I’m dropping this vote

VOTE: Snake

After Post 189 I see no reason it isn’t a good reason. No comment about ANYTHING from yesterday?

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Everyone, top two scumreads go. Mine are DY and redFF as mentioned before.

At this point – Snake / Having (from the VT pool) and redFF / DarthYoshi from the claimed PR pool.

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And yes, my tone was hella frustrated. Your result should clear me as town, but instead you're coming up with a hyper-specific hypothetical to push my lynch. Without that hypothetical, I HAVE to be town, regardless of whether you like my crumb or not.

YOU ARE PUSHING MY LYNCH BASED ON SOMETHING THAT IS COMPLETE, 100% SPECULATION.

So you bet your boots I'm not happy about it.

Yeah, I’ll just point out that you pushing this hard that “ALICE’S RESULT SHOULD CLEAR ME 100%” is pretty rubbish for obvious reasons.

The bolded, however, I will come back to in a minute.

2. I can't comment definitively. If the "Why are you alive" question is unanswerable on your end, then "Why did the scum target X or Y" is equally unanswerable from my end. If we are going to play that game, though, camn dying N1 should be a finger in your direction because she pushed for your lynch at least as hard as I did, if not harder.

This quote is an example why the bolded above doesn’t sit well with me at all. Your entire line of suspicion today is basically 100% speculation –

1. Why is MoI alive look at his title.
2. Camn’s death points 100% to you.

Camn’s death points to that she was perceived as a threat by her killers. Your argument here dismissed any other players who were on her radar (which we unfortunately can’t really review, funny how that works huh) or the fact that muffin himself was a much bigger pusher of MoI than camn was Day 1. But certainly dismiss those elements in crafting your suspicion.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too chief. You don’t get to ascribe Nightkill WIFOM logic in a way that damns me re: camn and then turn around and dismiss the fact that me being alive doesn’t make sense (in that active power-roles are bigger targets).

This is embarrassing. I forgot about that until you posted that. I investigated DV because of the speculation from you and others about him as an SK candidate and had forgotten that Ghosty wanted to direct my action.

So you are saying that you just completely forgot that you agreed to a redFF scan (the only player, at that stage given the claims we have, that made any sense as a Serial Killer) and got distracted by end of Day talk?

There’s a level of, for lack of a better word, inherent incompetence in this explanation I am not sure I buy. I know you aren’t incompetent.

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MoI, why did you think it at all possible that I could have been killed N1?

From memory – you had fought off pretty obviously bad pushes from several players Day 1. That’s all I can directly reference from Day 1 since I didn’t start QTing my thoughts on games until AFTER this one started.

I’ll be frank – had RedCoyote not explodified himself he was my protect choice 100%. After the abrupt ending to the day with my number 1 obv-Town choice dead and my second most likely choice (Palisade) looking like prime mislynch bait Day 2 I figured you were the best shot I had for a successful protect.

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So I've got two confirmed town IMO (Ghostlin and Alice) and no one else. The next closest sure thing for me would be MOI (I think he is town...partly for his play and partly for his claim).

So sticking by your claim that Ghostlin is confirmed Town due to stupid reasons?

Ghostlin’s a Town read but this smells of continued “buddy up” to me.

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Lack of SK makes DY look worse and worse. Him not investigating me when he promised to also seems weird.
speculation: If DY is scum, he's probably going to have to fake a guilty at some point to avoid lynch. Perhaps dy didn't "investigate" me because he plans on fakeclaiming a guilty tomorrow.

Doesn’t make any sense. Hypo-scum DY has already floated the “my role is a Red Herring” excuse to make sure he never needs to come up with a Guilty result. No reason for DY to commit to what you are asserting as a ‘fake’ guilty when it means he takes the noose the next day as likely scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok now my general thoughts -

Updated Claims List

–

DarthYoshi: FBI Agent
Alice: Tracker

MOI: 2 Shot Doctor
RedFF: Bodyguard
Ghostlin: Neighborizer – N1 - camn / N2 – Kamrun / N3 - ???

Thor/Jon: VT
DV: VT
Havingfitz: VT
Nobody Special: VT
Snake VT

Already Flipped

–

IAI – Mafia Goon
Jason – Mafia Watcher
ZMuffin – Vanilla Cop
Kamrun - Jailkeeper
RC / Camn / Palisade / Baseline – VT

Alice is also pretty much confirmed Town – the only way that isn’t the case is if we have multiple scum teams somehow (in which case we’re back to the WTF happened to all the kills question which makes it completely unlikely).

DarthYoshi’s role sticks out like a sore thumb at this point given we already have two confirmed Town information roles. So it’s either a Red Herring role meant throw a monkey wrench into various actual investigation role (working like a Miller for muffin, possible decoy role for Mafia Watcher) or a fake-claim meant to extend his life-span in the game.

My number 1 take-away though revolves around the order of deaths – muffin dying before Kamrun or Alice is significant in my mind.

We know from IAI that muffin would return a non-Vanilla results. We know that muffin would catch any scum who had claimed anything but power-role.

Alice can catch any scum taking action when they logically shouldn’t be as justified by their role (including Nightkills).

Kamrun could stop a Nightkill with the right choice of target (both offensively or defensively).

So muffin dying immediately after the mass claim despite the ‘protection’ that redFF was slated to provide says to me the following –

1. Mafia were not worried about the protection. Which means very likely there is a role-blocker floating about (or redFF is Mafia).
2. muffin was perceived as the biggest threat to scum.

Looking at this I’m myself inclined to want to lynch the most suspect players inside the VT pool. And of that pool I most suspect Snake / Having / NS.

I’ll be reviewing what I can of this thread, the bits recovered from the prior thread and known end of Day wagons for some MoIputer analysis in the next few days.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– you seem to be asking a number of questions and when you receive answers nothing seems to come from them. Why is that?

sorry, I keep messing that up. I meant you voting me.

So is your stance that all the scum were voting you as opposed to Jason yesterday?

Alice, I'm not comfortable having that contribute to my read of him, as often town do weird things like this.

So what exactly is your objective standard for what is a scum-tell then? Because anything that scum do Town can also do. For example – your wagon from yesterday is not 100% scum. Town must be on there.

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@Alice

– I can’t get that download to work. I gather from the context of your posting you are pointing out something from Darth that is inconsistent with his claim. Is that correct?

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Preview edit...ffs sake MOI. How my town read on Ghost anymore buddying than yours. At least I have provided reasoning (despite your opinion of it). I don't re all your reasoning...was it gut? Cause gut it a lot weaker than what I have.

Ok let’s be clear – you assertion that scum aren’t Neighborizors has been show to be 100% completely inaccurate. Yet that is the SOLE reason you repeatedly have stated that you find Ghostlin Town. That’s absolutely you clinging to a disproven reason simply in an effort to maintain your read. Which is scummy.

Why do I find Ghostlin Town? His play screams Town.

His handling of information post-claiming of his role has been transparently Town. He’s shared information that benefits Town (for example, confirming information provided by Kamrun in the QT) but not exploded the thread with every single detail. He proactively alerted us that the Neighborhood was full.

His voting pattern has been solidy Town – he stood pretty strongly against the Palisade lynch. He also, IIRC, was on to IAI before Muffin outed him as obv-lying scum.

He points out anti-Town incorrect logic and post and explains why they are incorrect and / or scummy (this is ++ Town in my book) – for example his Post 176 properly shows that you were not thinking in any capacity regarding considering DV to possible be a Serial Killer.

If I had an actual Archive to work with I could point out more examples of his clear Town play.

So again … your stance is craptastic at best and most probably coming from a scum perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Between MOI and redFF, I'd rather lynch MOI. If we're going to try Ghostlin's hypothesis (again, I think he makes a reasonable point with it), then:
Vote: MOI.

I’d ask you to explain why but I sense the reason is that I have doubts about your alignment. I do note that your focus came right back to me after I called out how unlikely your role is in the set-up now.

As to #1: You're being reductive. There's a reason why you have that particular title. FTR, the ONLY other time I've ever used the "they're still alive" argument as a scumtell was on Vi in a mini normal some time ago, and I was right.

So your whole basis is “I was successful this one time”. Noted. Seriously, your argument is basically an off-shoot of “Burden of Proficiency”. We can debate this all you would like. I can show you any number of Large games where I was not killed as Town until very late game / not at all due to lynch. Basically your argument is WIFOM that can be spun however you chose, just like most Nightkill arguments.

As to #2: Muffin may have pushed more, but I recall camn being more persuasive at building that wagon than either me or muffin.

Funny, I don’t remember that at all. I recall that muffin was the primer mover against me and camn was basically a fluffy nuisance.

This isn't me having my cake and eating it too. I said I couldn't speak to it, and that IF--IF you wanted to play the NK motivation WIFOM game, it doesn't look good for you.

No, it quite is. You want to say “MoI is scum because he’s not been Nightkilled” which is pure Nightkill WIFOM speculation. Then when challenged on that you turn and say “Oh, well this one kill makes you look bad”. No mention of all the other kills (including Baseline who had me as solid Town) that don’t. That’s the nature of your argument … you get to cherry-pick whatever you like that supports your bullshit and ignore / handwave whatever doesn’t.

You're right, it was an egregious mistake for a player with my experience. It was incompetent. It was completely out of character for me.

That doesn't mean I'm scum.

Correct. Doesn’t mean you aren’t either. I’m looking at the rest of your play in that regard.

More to the point, though, why did you put your vote on Snake instead of red?

If

Ghosty is right, then to TownYou, red should be obvscum.

I’ve bolded the word that shows me this is one of those scummy “Why aren’t you voting Player X” arguments. I think Ghostlin is Town but that doesn’t make him infalliable. And for the record – your role is doesn’t make any sense in the Set-up either.

Basically you are buying the “redFF or MoI” argument since it artificially restricts the lynches. Convenient, huh? We probably have 3 Mafia remaining (yeah, I did forget to mention that your 4 Mafia theory makes no sense with the apparent lack of a Serial Killer in the setup). I’ll happily vote redFF if those players I consider Town (Ghostlin and Alice) both agree it should be a PoE lynch.

Otherwise I’m going to still hunt scum. Like Snake and probably yourself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Alice

- I see you vote is currently on redFF despite your push on Darth. What is your personal stance on today being a redFF versus MoI affair?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm fine with redFF being lynched today, but my stronger read is certainly on DY. I don't want it to be a redFF/MoI affair because you are pretty much town to me, so it leaves me no option for my lynch. I'd MUCH rather the day to be opened up.

Thanks, I just wanted confirmation that you were not of the “1v1” stance.

How the hell does this sort of post come from a claimed FBI agent?

I agree with that stance given that odds are favorable we don’t have a Serial Killer, especially given he agrees with the lack but still hasn’t updated his ‘possible set-ups’ to include anything other than 4 total scum. A 13-5 setup certainly isn’t out of the question.

--

I also think DY suspecting me is very wrong, but I'm not sure about him yet and will decide later. Also, I don't know how likely it is that DY and Fitz are scum together. This is because I'm thinking there's probably one scum member that didn't attack me (this could maybe be IaI, but even he "suspected" me). MoI, what do you think of this?

I’m not sure I understand your stance here Deas. Do you mean “You don’t think all the scum attacked you

at the same time

” or do you mean “You don’t think all the scum attacked you

over the course of the game

”?

If you are meaning the first I think it’s a pretty safe bet that all the Mafia were not pressing you at once. Rarely outside a MYLO / LYLO situation do you get such a concentration of scum.

The second is rather pointless as reads change over the course of the game.

Jon keeps coming up as possible scum to me, mainly because he kept throwing his vote around right after crash without actually knowing anything, but no one else seems to find him scummy, and Thor was a townread.

I don’t think you are quite reading the situation accurately. I don’t have a solid Town read on Jon. I didn’t like the slot’s play regarding Palisade and the amount of hair-splitting I believe Thor was doing. That said I don’t see Jon’s ‘being lost’ as unusual. He’s replaced into a slot without a full archive.

[MagnaofIllusion]

All your other points are hackneyed re-statements of previous suspicions, and I seriously am so over them. When I flip town, you'll see how seriously you fucked up playing your role today.

PS: Fitz is right--people, remember what DV's claimed role his--he's claimed VT. What SK or scum role, aside from goon (or another killing role like hitman) would visit a claimed VT? DV, MOI--you guys have been openly speculating on what maf PR I could be. Which of those makes sense, except goon? The only way me as scum works is if Kamrun jailed DV last night, something that there is zero indication that they did. Use your heads.

1. How quaint an Appeal to Emotion - "when I flip Town you'll be sorry!"
2. This argument that you could only be a Goon and thus your role if proven is pretty farsical.

Fact 1 - Deas has been obliquely hinting that he might be a hidden power-role. Enough so that it might make sense as a Scum Roleblocker / Rolecop / Modified Framer (to frame him to Alice's track) for you to target him.

Fact 2 - Kamrun didn't hint anywhere (including per Ghostlin the Neighborhood QT they were in) as to what he was doing with their Jail. Dismissing Deas as a possible Jail target while simultaneously saying "There was lots of speculation about him being a Serial Killer" doesn't synch.

As to you being 'over' the discussion of what was perceived as slips on your Part Day 2 that doesn't mean everyone else who is scum hunting are. You've yet to explain why you assume a 4 person scum team still with your role being a 'Red Herring'. 5 scum is just as viable as 4 yet you haven't shown any indication that you have even considered it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@having

– Please keep pointlessly pushing on Deas. Because he isn’t getting lynched today. It will make hanging you easier. I appreciate that!

I’m not in agreement with the current push on DY.

You were against the push on Jason yesterday and for lynching Palisade. I think this indicates that Darth might be the proper lynch today.

--

redff - 3 (havingfitz, Snakeplissken, Jon_h61)
DarthYoshi - 3 (Alicewondering, DeasVail, Nobody Special)
Havingfitz - 1 (redFF)
Snakeplissken - 1 (MagnaofIllusion)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 (DarthYoshi)

Not Voting: (Ghostlin)

and now he's voting DY? erm, explain please NS. They're probably buddies anyways. Would like someone else's view on this before I do anything else but would be fine with an NS lynch at this stage especially after that contradiction.

that NS contradiction bandwagon hop is actually too much, vote:ns

So explain this to me.

Right before the first post of yours we see the following – Darth has 3 votes. NS has none.

You make a fourth vote for Darth while simultaneously saying that NS is probably his buddy bussing him.

Then you turn around and take a vote off his professed buddy with 4 votes to vote for NS who had none before your move.

I want to know clearly – how does this string of events make any sense form a Town player? Be aware that my next vote is going to be based on how both you and Darth answer my outstanding questions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unfortunately we can't all have the infallible scumhunting skills that you possess MOI....they're the bessssst. Well..as long as we don't count your D1 tunneling on zmuff and the as yet tbd alignment focus on DY and Snake D2. You did get the scum on a silver platter lynches D3 @ D4 right though. Good work.

And aside from the fact I am not currently voting DV....ie not pushing his lynch atm...why is he (or red for that matter) a less attractive wagon to you than DY?

Other than doubts about his claim...which could still be proven with the right lynch or nk/s result...I do not see DY even in the same zipcode of suspicion as DV and redFF.

1. Pointless sarcasm noted. I will admit - I haven't ever really seen evidence of quality scum-hunting skills in your play in the past so that is a point in your favor.

2. So let me get this straight - you've spent pretty much your last week or so jousting with Deas for what reason? Is it because you think he's scum? Having a vote in one place doesn't absolve you from a scummy push on a different target.

3. Deas is by far a less likely scum-bag than either redFF or DarthYoshi. I thought I made that clear - the manner in which he was made the alternate wagon to Jason yesterday means he's pretty much unlikely to Mafia. And he can't be a Serial Killer unless DarthYoshi is Mafia who knew there was another killing faction after N1 and faked his innocent results this entire time. If that's the case I can't see Deas as wanting to wagon DarthYoshi as a Mafia flip removes his SK shield if there actually is one (and let's fact facts - the circumstances of the game render the possibility pretty remote).

4. I recall his line of attack on me and his general posting Day 2 were scummy. It's why I pushed him that Day (and he eventually had to claim to escape). Without a full archive it's impossible for me to re-create my suspicions from memory. But to suggest all suspicion of Darth is based solely on his claim being bad is inaccurate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, I’m at gathering my thoughts on today –

As evidenced in my last general overview I’ve separated the playerbase into two sets of player – claimed PR and claimed VT.

PowerRoles

Alice
Ghostlin’s slot
redFF
DarthYoshi

Vanilla Town

DeasVail
Jon_h61
NobodySpecial
Havingfitz
Snake

These are my lists order in rough Town to Scum read order. Again, as I said in my earlier post I would rather lynch a VT over a Power-role today. I think muffin’s death post claim first despite directed protection says that more scum are in the VTs than in the Power-roles.

I’m happy with my Snake vote currently.

--

Ghostlin, I want to see more from you. I don't believe I've seen much from you recently.

Unfortunately Ghostlin has apparently site-flaked. Expect his replacement soon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI, I get the feeling Snake is horribly lazy town, not scum.

I’ll agree he’s horribly useless regardless of his alignment.

What do you think about my “Muffin dying early means scum in VT” theory?

--

And no, it isn't farsical. I'm not dismissing DV as a jail target--of course he might have been jailed--but that it is still required for you to believe that Kamrun jailed him in order for me to be scum, and, as you said, Karmun didn't hint anywhere as to who they'd jail. So, again, for me to be scum, you have to buy into a completely unsubstantiated hypothetical.

Lack of documentation of Kamrun’s actions does not mean that we can’t draw logical conclusions. Furthermore as already discussed the possibility of Roleblocker / Modified Framer hardly means Deas has to be jailed for Alice’s result on you to be accurate.

I don't actually think it is clear at all. The way DV behaved on D1 vis-a-vis Jason read as purposely noncommittal so that he could bus him if he needed to, but didn't want to seem connected to him at all--I remember this distinctly because that was part of my original case on DV. So once the writing on the wall became clear, it would be easier to bus. Do you think that Jason WASN'T bussed?

Of course you don’t think so.

Where did I say there was no possibility that Jason was bussed? The point is not that Jason was bussed. The point is that BOTH dominant wagons yesterday were both scum. Jason was a walking deadman IMO. If he was going to be power-bussed the odds that a counter wagon would form on another Mafia member is pretty slim. Do you disagree?

Honestly the fact that your play since we have been restored can be summarized as follows –

1. Vote Deas over Jason.
2. Try your hardest to say I should be lynched for “Title WIFOM”
3. Trying hard to suggest Deas is more likely Mafia scum than others

makes me very willing to lynch you today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eh, I think it has some merit, for sure. But I think it was more of a case of Muffin being more obvtown than any other claimed PR. With Jason still unflipped, there was a chance that scum could get me mislynched. When Kamrun died, my thought was that I was less obvtown than Kamrun. Now then, let's turn to NS, who suggested early in the day that he didn't think I was necessarily obvtown. I hadn't really considered the NKs, but now, I think that this was potentially scum testing waters for my mislynch.

I see what you are saying here and don’t necessarily disagree. We really aren’t going to have any real idea til endgame what the true NK motivations were. I just can’t quite wrap my head around the Mafia leaving you (who can track ANY scum to a Nightkill target and ruin their day) alive over Muffin (who can only bust fake-claimers).

NS’s play is pretty objectively bad. Just like Snake’s. I am really feeling crippled without the ability to ISO players from prior days and look at vote-counts. I think separating the ‘wheat form the chaff” as it were in finding the scum I feel are in the VTs lies in the past posts we don’t have access to.

I commented on this yesterday, and this is not addressed to me, but I feel like I should add in here that it is HIGHLY likely mafia took a gambit here and counterwagoned DV to make it look like their alignments were opposite. It's actually genius, especially since if DV got lynched and flipped scum, it basically guaranteed that Jason was town watcher. If Jason got flipped as scum, DV would supposedly be conf-town, though that was not really true. I think I'm going to reread how that day went to see who supported which wagon and how they did it

Let’s look at how the Day went yesterday in the form of Vote-Counts –

1st vote count of day 4:

JasonT1981 - 3 (DarthYoshi, Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion)

2nd vote count of day 4:

JasonT1981 - 5 (DarthYoshi, Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVai)
DeasVail - 3 (JasonT1981, Ghostlin, redFF)

JasonT1981 - 5 (Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVail, Jon_h61)
DeasVail - 5 (JasonT1981, Ghostlin, redFF, DarthYoshi, havingfitz)

JasonT1981 - 7 (Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVail, Jon_h61, Nobody Special, Ghostlin)
DeasVail - 4 (JasonT1981, redFF, DarthYoshi, havingfitz)

For purposes of this discussion I’ve stripped out the players who were not on either wagon. If both Deas and Jason end up being Mafia scum anyone who stayed away the entire time is probably more likely to be Town IMO just from the standpoint that they didn’t ‘chose a side’ as it were. Scum would know that either flip would be ‘good’ for their cred and would be less likely to avoid taking a stance.

So the initial wagon on Jason is made up of – Darth / Alice / MoI

Kamrun joins the Jason wagon while Ghostlin and redFF form the early Deas counterwagon with Jason.

The third VC shows the wagons reaching equality at 5 votes with Darth changing from Jason to Deas and being joined by having (along with Ghostlin and redFF).

So if you are looking for the ‘scum’ who really drove the counter-wagon your pool of likely candidates is Ghostlin, redFF, Darth and having.

Now given that we at likely looking at most 5 Mafians with 2 dead (IAI and Jason) and Deas a third at most that leaves 2 others to help fuel this plan you are discussing. Do you think scum could pull it off without those two both being committed to making the counterwagon viable?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hmm. I'm thinking. I'm not entirely convinced it is a 5 person scumteam though..

If you don't think that there are 5 scum your "Jason and Deas were counter-wagons as scum" theory is really getting strained to the brink. That would require the strong 5 person counter-wagon on Deas to only be fueled by the max of 2 scum - Jason and the 4th remaining scum.

Which makes your vote on NS make no sense then as he can't be part of the 'scum team' arranging that scum-on-scum counterwagon.

I'm really not sure your theory holds up under a 4 person Mafia team.

And I have my doubts about the viability of a 4 personal Mafia team without a Serial Killer set-up wise anyway. 4 / 18 is below the general 25% threshold that balance generally indicates. It's possible if the scum team is a bit power-heavy given the flips we have seen from Town (in which case a Roleblocker for scum is pretty much required for balance reasons).

[MagnaofIllusion]

None of this matters. In a 13-player mini, the standard 3-person scumteam is below the 25% threshold too.
Plus, if anything, a SK would actually weaken the mafia because it opens up the possibility of crosskills.I feel like you should know better...and that you probably do. While I'm fine lynching red or DV (NS I'm a little less sure about, his flip-flop on me is too careless to come from him--I've gotten a decent look at his scumgame in a couple of games, and scumHim is usually more deliberate, whereas I've seen townNS be careless), this post reminded me that my vote is still where it should be.

None of this matter? No, not at all. It goes to the heart of your crediblity. Your sole basis for your Day 2 posts where you kept saying "It's 4 scum" was your 'knowledge' that there was a Serial Killer. Now that you have gone to the "Oops, my role is a Red Herring" well I would think Town would have discarded the absolute stance of "Only 4 scum" to consider other possibilities. But nope - you haven't. I'm back to my point from Day 2 ... you inadvertantly gave out your inside knowledge about the scum-team size.

So 3-13 is under the 25% barrier. True. As you SHOULD know smaller games (aka Minis) are shorter given the lesser number of players and thus there is less room for error. In Large game (like this) the days tend to last much longer so scum strength needs to be adjusted as such.

For you to suggest I'm scum for 'knowing better' when you are using an Apples to Oranges comparision is totes funny. It's flailing and it's hilarious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You also claimed FBI Agent Magua ... see our dilemma?

[MagnaofIllusion]

O HAI GUIZ

So, who wants to tell me what happened that got eaten by the Tiger Incursion? Single-file line, please.

Here's the run-down

Day 1 was long and ugly. Jason-scum claimed Watcher at like L-4. It ended when Red Coyote explodified himself via Modkill.

Day 2 Darth claimed FBI Agent after he was under pressure. Alice claimed Tracker who tracked Jason to himself. Palisade got wagonned for terrible reasons and eventually was hung.

Day 3 muffin drove a mass-claim based on his Vanilla Cop role. He caught IAI-scum fake-claiming Vanilla. Claims that came out of this for those still living (or already made)

Alice - Tracker
Darth - FBI Agent
Me - 2 Shot Doctor
redFF - Bodyguard
You - Neighborizor which Kamrun confirmed was true.
Everyone else - VT

IAI self-hammered and wrote a long piece of WIFOM appealing to the "other killing faction" or some such stuff and offering to work their kills together. Yup, only 1 kill per Night still stands. redFF was supposed to Bodygard muffin but got Jailkept and thus muffin died.

That's a short, short summary of what you missed in the Tiger Attack.

[MagnaofIllusion]

- Muffin was a cop who could return Vanilla (VT/Goon) vs non-Vanilla results

No, muffin returned Vanilla Town / Not results. IAI was a Goon who muffin got a "Not Vanilla" result on.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That first part is overly reductive and a misrep and you know it. I dare you to find ANY time I take the "absolute" stance of there being only 4 scum ever since I began saying my role was a red herring (basically, at the start of this new, post-crash thread). I say in my #146 that it is way more likely than a 14:3:1 setup, and I agree with Alice in my #157 that 14:4 is the most likely setup. Neither stances could remotely be construed as absolute.

Not a misrep at all. Why do you feel the need to sling Wikitells? Feel your position isn’t strong enough on it’s own?

The point is, of course, that Day 2 you made several slips regarding the Scum-team being a 4 player team. Statements you made that indicated you knew that to be a fact, not conjecture. It’s one of the reasons you got wagonned Day 2. Once you made your claim I decided it was possible that it was you showing your ‘inside knowledge” based on there being a Serial Killer. A 13-4-1 set-up is feasible.

Yet now that you’ve concluded your role is a Red Herring you don’t seem to consider 13-5 as a viable set-up at all. And it is just as feasible as 13-4-1, even more so given the lack of multiple Nightkills extends the game and allows for more-scum hunting.

So I’m back your Day 2 posts being slips coming from a Mafia inside perspective. Pretty simple.

What evidence is there that large games have "much" longer days than 13-player minis? I think you're just making this up.

Let me clarify my point – when I said the Days last longer I mean there are more days in the game. A Mini-game rarely lasts longer than 5 Days. Large games routinely last 8 or more days. The longer the game (which is my point) the more need for an overall stronger Mafia team on a relative basis. Just under 25% makes much more sense in a Mini environment while it doesn’t in a Large environment.

If you want I can play detective and show you a bunch of completed Large Game ratios to support my point.

If I really were flailing scum, you'd be voting me right now because Snake is getting replaced, nobody else is voting him, and I'm one of only three viable wagons right now. Get real.

Yeah, I can’t possibly think someone else is scum besides you

That being said you are correct that my vote is currently not useful with about a week to deadline.

UNVOTE: Snake
VOTE: Darth

Odds you are scum are higher than odds of NS IMO and no-one shows any interest in Snake or Having.

--

So IAI would've been N1 or N2. Did Muffin say what his other result was?

I was his other scan that turned up Not-Vanilla.

--

No, MOI, I remember us discussing the fact that he could turn vanilla on goons. He was a vanilla cop, not a vanilla townie cop, I'm pretty sure.

No, you are wrong on this. IAI claimed VT. Muffin said IAI is lying and then IAI started some bogus song and dance that he was a ‘Weak Doc” (I think that’s what he claimed) and had fake-claimed VT to test muffin. That I remember pretty clearly.

--

3) DV is far less likely to be scum? You thought you made that clear? Unfortunately we don't all value your opinion as much as you do. Too funny.

No what’s funny is your contrortions and attempts to keep DV as a viable suspect after yesterday. Odds he’s Mafia with Jason are slim. Do you think he is a Serial Killer? Yes or no?

Yet you keep him tucked on your ‘suspect list’. He’s that mislynch you, as scum, know you probably can get because his play is sub-par or he's a Serial Killer that you still know is out there and are hunting for "cred". Both possibilities point to Mafia scum Having.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mostly the thing about Magna that's bugging me is his continued missing that zMuffinMan could be used to clear VTs as being really innocent (instead of just being able to bust fakeclaims), even after that's pointed out to him.

Um because, as noted, Alice was incorrect. If we have ever get archived posts you can see that IAI claimed VT before muffin gave his results, got busted, and then back-tracked.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA this weekend staring at 1pm EDT today for Easter and regular family duties.

--

Which is what I said? He vanilla copped people, not VT cop. MOI is the one who says he was VT cop. But yeah, MOI, this is why you're wrong.

Are you really arguing the nomenclature thing here? Fact – muffin was a Vanilla Cop who could bust ANY Mafia who claimed VT. As he did with IAI. That’s what I’ve been saying for awhile and I wonder why you keep arguing with me that I’m wrong.

--

UNVOTE: Darth
VOTE: Tammy

Where was this support when I was voting Snake earlier?

Tammy’s play this game looks nothing like my previous experience with Tammy-Town.

But yeah, put some more of your valuable votes on my wagon...that makes sense...you should probably speed lynch me before I get a chance to really read the thread and make sense of it.

So instead of doing just that and taking your time reading you have been responding to every little post from an ill-informed position?

That being said it looks like there's a tracker, a neighborizer, an FBI agent (investigator?),

a watered down finder

, a jailkeeper, a bodyguard, and a two shot healer? Hmmm in a sea of VTs. Sounds a bit overpowered for town. Are roles distributed randomly here? So the vanilla cop and JK were definitely town. Still looks overpowered. At least one of those roles belong to team evil, or one of the VTs is lying *welp, not me*.

Why does the bolded appear in your list when no-one has claimed anything of the sort?

[MagnaofIllusion]

What I find odd is MoI's reaction to his suspicion. When MoI replaced into the Kirby game, and he said who would probably be scum if they remained alive for too many more days with the player list, he said that he would say the same thing about himself. So if he knows he's going to get suspicion when he remains alive for a little while, why does he seem surprised or frustrated by it? (Although he handles it a lot better than I do when it happens to me.)

First I’m going to share some history with you.

I played for over 2 years on another site before coming to MS. There I developed a strong reputation similar to here – I was almost uniformally killed N1 as Town in every game regardless of play / role / whatever simply due to rep. It, as expected, got to the point that any game I survived N1 the calls of “MoI is scum, he’s alive” came raining on Day 2, often from scum. It actually became a viable discussed strategy for scum to avoid killing me just to make that argument to push for my claim.

Suffice it to say that I stopped playing games there shortly afterwards because the investment of my time wasn’t worth it. I wasn’t going to live more than two Days regardless of alignment or play.

I understand your point regarding Kirby Mafia – I specifically made that point regarding Spyrex and PranaDevil because it was true … the playerlist in that game was significantly weaker overall and them living any amount of time was something I didn’t want escaping those who were not experienced.

I’m used to dealing with “MoI is Alive” arguments and “Burden of Proficiency” arguments here. It’s pretty common. What makes me rather peeved is when they are made completely in absence of context and facts of the game. Simply put – I find attacks based simply on the “He’s alive right now” with the playerlist as it stands (and I challenge Darth to explicitly say directly he feels I’m a better player than he is and thus it is reasonable he hasn’t been killed) and the claims that have been made.

Post 411 makes my brain hurt.

--

@MOI... post 335...you say odds DV is scum with Jason are slim...but wouldn't that be the objective of their play towards each other? Both have received a large amount of suspicion over the course of this game and anything to provide some clearance...to either of them...would be worth the bus.

This is the kind of surface thinking that doesn’t match up to actual play. Of course bussing has been a historically successful tactic. But in this game’s context bussing doesn’t make sense for scum.

By the end of Day 3 scum had already lost IAI and Jason was already outed scum. I don’t see scum gambling and offering up a partner as sacrifice in place of Jason. You can see from the reaction to Jason’s claim that even if Deas had flipped scum Jason was going down. A last ditch effort to get rid of Town / Serial Killer is overwhelmingly more likely what occurred if scum are playing to their wincon.

And I do not have DV "tucked" anywhere. He has been a suspect of mine this entire game. Here's a hypothetical for you.....if you found yourself in a 3 person LYLO with Magua and DV, who would you vote and why?

Yes, he’s been your ‘suspect’ for much of the game. That doesn’t mean that your continued efforts to keep calling him scum aren’t suspect or an effort to keep him as possible mislynch.

If we are talking hypothetical land where only Mafia is expected to exist I would have to have good reason not to look long and hard at Magua’s slot as possible Mafia.

Who would you suspect in said hypothetical circumstance?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I see Magua has recovered files. Woohoo. I might be able to do a MoiPuter run after all.

At any rate, Snakeplissken was prodded due to going over the posting time limit and the prod was acknowledged during the night cycle. Had he not responded to the prod, he would have been replaced.

Well unless you are willing to argue that Snake would have responded to a PM prod in the Night and not included a Kill this sort of puts a crimp in the “Snake as Serial Killer” argument.

UNVOTE: Tammy
VOTE: DarthYoshi

--

In the neighborhood, Magna is putting up resistance to the idea of me wanting him investigated by Yoshi. I'm not sure why, and it sorts of bugs me, but we're arguing it out.

Let’s be fair – I’m not ‘resisting’ the idea of being investigated. I’m questioning your assumptions in logic.

Good mafia claim. Bad SK claim.

Agreed. However – if it comes to it at deadline will you lynch Red?

--

There was already a mafia watcher, so DY couldn't be that. Any other alternatives?

We’ve been over this already. Roleblocker / Rolecop / Modified Framer are all possibilities.

--

That's IF you believe DY's claim, which I don't.

Well if you don’t believe his FBI Agent claim then you either think he’s Mafia (in which case we probably don’t actually have a Serial Killer) with a fake-claim or the Serial Killer himself. In either case regardless of whether you disbelieve his claim his results are valid on their face.

--

Fitz's play is interesting. He's definitely stepped up his focus and attention to detail, but a lot more of his play seems to be focused on setup speculation, which I'm not sure is *actually* all that helpful. I mean, if there's a two-flip, there's a two-flip, and we can deal with it then. For the moment, why don't we simply focus on lynching scum?

If fitz is scum this is pretty clear distancing. No clear commitment to a position on his alignment, using weasel-words (interesting, ‘not sure is actually helpful’).

I've basically suspected MOI all game. His D1 play was lurkertastic and felt much more like scum trying to pretend to scumhunt than actually being useful.

And I’ve suspect you all game for displaying ‘inside information’ tells and scummy faked scum-hunting (where you tried to link Town Kamrun and Deas to Jason while not pushing Jason and in fact Day 1 arguing against his lynch after his terribad claim).

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI's vote of me is incredibly anti-town. At the time of his vote, he moved from the leading wagon (Tammy) to a person with only ONE other vote (me) when the deadline was only three days away. It looks like an effort to divide the town than any genuine attempt to catch scum.

Oh so you mean the vote move to one of my Top scum suspects. Made right after Magua did the same thing - voting for a top suspect after Tammy's Serial Killer status was cleared up by the Mod.

But one peep here about Magua making an Anti-Town vote? Nope, not a peep. Cognitive Dissonance in full effect!

My vote is well placed.

Darth is scum.

--

@Alice

- As you can see his reasoning is pretty damn terrible.

--

Quite funny (and by that I means scummy) that suddenly in the course of a few hours a wagon on me has sprung up out of the blue so close to deadline with craptacular reasons supporting in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magua indicated a willingness when he switched votes to join a different wagon to avoid a no-lynch. He gave reasons for his vote. You did neither.

Yes, your assumption that I would not move my vote to avoid a No-lynch is both invalid and pointless in the course of directing why I am 'scum'. You made a incorrect assumption that benefited your stance and ran with it.

As to flailing scum - a typical rhetoric attack. I can point to you any number of flash wagons on Town that appeared right at deadline driven by scum. Your attempt to paint that observation as scummy is noted.

But for the record - if I was scum 'worried and flailing' I would have hopped on the next closest viable wagon. I'm not because I'm voting my top suspect and actually scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dealine is today at 6pm CST. I’ll be moving my vote today later to make sure we don’t No Lynch. This way there can be no ‘doubt’ about my intentions

--

Unrelated, Fitz blatantly admitting he wants to get rid of the SK sooner rather than later is scummy. Of course scum want the SK out of the way, the potential for crosskills lowers the chances of any individual scum faction winning the game. Obviously, he's not today's lynch, but still, FOS Fitz.

So your premise this late in the game with scum 2 members down that it’s scummy to want to eliminate as potential second kill (which we still aren’t sure about) and shows scum intent? If we do have a Serial Killer the Mafia and SK aren’t going to be looking to cross-kill. They’ll be eliminating confirmed Town PRs. So eliminating them at this stage minimizes the possible Nightkills and keeps as many confirmed Town alive for as long as possible. This statement doesn’t compute.

Dude, listen to what you're saying--I should assume that you would do something pro-town when I think you're scum and when you didn't actually say you would do said thing? You're asking me to be psychic here.

No, I’m not asking you to by Psychic. You are trying to assert scum intent by suggesting that I would not do something because I didn’t EXPLICITLY say I would. I didn’t explicitly say I wouldn’t either. I'm not some Mafia newb ... I understand that No Lynching isn't positive in the game-state we have. So you are simply mudslinging with that attack.

Or you could have done it to divide the town so close to deadline, which, based on the most recent VC, seemed to work like a charm.

Given the rapid vote swings that happened AFTER this post I think we can clearly see this is an Appeal to Fear “Oh no it’s divided the Town we are No Lynching think of the children” type statement. Scummy.

Fine.

Unvote. Vote: Jon.

3 votes down, 3 to go.

Remind me again – what was your Thor and jon read before deadline came calling?

--

Why are you concerned about pointing it out that someone else moved their vote too, but didn't get called out?

I’m concerned with finding and hanging scum. Specifically in this case pointing out yet another example of Darth’s rampant inconsistency which indicates he’s looking to find reasons to point out his ‘suspects’ are scum but not finding non-suspects scum for the exact same reason. His responses with revolve around “You didn’t say you’d move to prevent a no-lynch” further show him stretching. He’s trying to say that I’ve committed to keeping my vote on him as opposed to making sure we don’t know lynch and that’s bullshit.

Am I missing something MoI? You've been saying that DY was dropping tells that he knew the size of the scum team, but what I'm seeing is him dropping hints that there is more than one scum team, which would be consistent with his claim of FBI agent, no

I’d have to dig in the archive for it (if it is there) but at one point Darth Day 2 said, in response to me, “You calling out all four scum members” (well along these lines, not a direct quote obviously). He specifically called out a number of scum. As you can see with his further posts on the subject of set-up today – he somehow wasn’t considering a 3-1 Mafia / Serial Killer when he said that. No reason for a FBI Agent to know for certain there are 4 scum members to the Mafia team unless he’s a member of said team.

--

MOI...who did you use your protects on again?

Again it was Deas N1 and Alice N2.

--

Yes, but you're doing it in a way that seems to provide no benefit to you, which makes me assume that there is some benefit that I'm just not seeing.

I know you are all comfortable with the pretty solid Town read but if you don’t get that me continuing to questions your motives is a Town benefit I don’t know what else to say.

Jon_h61 replaced Thor665. I don't see Thor's posts as being incredibly town. I see Thor-town as being a lot more active and dynamic with his vote, whereas here Thor pretty much had his vote on town the entirety of D1 and D2, except for one vote count where he's voting Magna.

Here the point where I say his vote was on Town at that juncture also …

--

I just don't know what to do any more.

unvote

Vote: Alice

Why do I get the feeling you are trying too hard to play to your ‘Town’ meta right here that Darth has pointed out?

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

I really don't think lynching Deas over Jon or NS or fitz among the VT claims is a wise idea.

Since Darth continues to escape attention

UNVOTE: Darth
VOTE: Jon

I'll be checking in the morning before deadline but someone is going to have to do a real sell-job on how Deas can be Mafia to me ... I don't see it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do I self-hammer or not?

I'm not voting for you. I don't see you as Mafia and you can't be SK regardless of whether Darth is lying.

Self-hammer if you think your death would help Town out in the long run by exposing scum. Otherwise don't.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@ MoI I'm fairly sure he isn't the SK, but why do you say he can't be scum?

Are you paying attention to the game? Despite Alice's suggestion to the contrary yesterday did not play out as a lynch choice between two scum members.

You are 'fairly sure' he's not the SK? Darth claims he isn't. That means he's clear regardless whether Darth is lying or not.

Can we get two votes in here to hammer jon over Deas please?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's why I said that, you still haven't explained why he can't be scum?

And brilliant ... you haven't given REASON ONE why he is. Period.

Looking at your ISO you've given not reason 1 why ANYONE is scum.

Why can't you just die at this point?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Having if you are still here vote Jon ....

We can't rely on self-votes since both will wait for the other to do so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome to the game CES.

Why the Tammy vote if you haven't read the thread?

VOTE: redFF

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's a pretty good point.

UNVOTE: redFF

He's confirmed scum so there is no problem with letting CES (and Tammy also) catch-up before he is roped.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Theory point: SK could have investigation immunity when not killing.

If I've assessed the situation correctly, then I don't mind a quicklynch personally. RedFF's flip would be useful in assessing things and I'll catch up overnight.

Magua what are your thoughts on the issue?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I protected magua because I thought I could outWIFOM scum and they wouldn't risk killing me over alice. Eh fair enough If i get lynched. Who was DY gonna inspect, MoI? That's my bet for SK then.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

For those of you ruminating about redFF flipping Town let me show you the above -

That post NEVER, EVER comes from Town ...

VOTE: redFF

Yes we are NS ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record if I bite it overnight hang either having or NS and if that doesn't end the game right there hang the other ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

You won't. You're scum of some flavor. I just know it.

If I live we can certainly discuss tomorrow. I know 100% that you will be living to see Dawn since you are either scum or your regular VI self ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can I hammer?

If he isn't already throw it.

CES has already said he doesn't care and will catch up overnight.

Magua, I and our mystery guest in the QT can hash things out post-flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - As usual I'm LA this weekend for family duties.

There was significant discussion in the Neighborhood QT regarding who is the remaining scum. We should be treating today as LYLO for obvious reasons.

I'm inclined to vote one of two people at this stage with a third dark-horse candidate.

VTs

- why shouldn't you be at the top of my voting list?

[MagnaofIllusion]

2) MoI, you dodged this question earlier, so I'll ask it again: did you really think DV might get targetted for a nightkill?

Also, I can't help but note that the tracker innocent is a significant piece of evidence in favour of me being town (especially if, as implied on the first page, I was a bad tracker target.)

He was my protect option as obv-Town. I also had a gut sense he might be a Power-role based on his play Day 1 as a relative newb.

No, a negative tracker scan is Null at best assuming we have 2 scum left. Or the strong possibility of a Ninja which you I find interesting you don't even consider. The fact you were slated to be targetted by the Vanilla Cop and scum gambled (assuming they don't have a Roleblocker which I think at this point is a good chance) to kill said Cop with the threat of Bodyguard protection I see as possible evidence against you.

More when I have time ... Monday at worst.

[MagnaofIllusion]

See it's posts like this that have me doubting my earlier scum read of NS.

Please elaborate on your reasons here (regarding Post 662 originally, BTW).

--

Firstly CES – please elaborate why you find fitz scummy. I think your read is accurate but I’d love for you to elaborate on why given your slot has shown exactly zero interest in lynching him before today.

You're dodging the question in the same way as before. I don't care why you picked him; what I want to know is why it was worth using your shot at all. DV seems like a really unlikely kill.

No I’m hardly dodging the question you just don’t like the answer.

I don’t care about ‘likelyhood’ as a Doc. The heirachy of who to protect as a Doc for me is roughly –

Outted Town read important PowerRoles
Confirmed or Town read influential Townies (those actively and successfully scum-hunting)
Town read or possible Town read PowerRoles who may be Nightkilled.

Day 1 Jason was the only outed PR and I didn’t have any sort of Town read on him.
No such players in the second category since it was Day 1.
That left my Town reads as protect choices. RedCoyote exploded himself and Palisade as the leading wagon was not going to be Nightkilled. That left Deas who was my last Town read and gut PR read at my choice.

Including a Ninja just seems mean to the Tracker. Scum certainly don't seem to need one powerwise

First off – um whut? Ninja seems ‘mean’ to a tracker? I guess including a Godfather in a set-up is ‘mean’ to a Cop, right?

But as to scum ‘Not needing’ any other Powerroles let’s discuss your statement –

Town Roles

–

Vanilla Cop (which is proven to find any non-Investigation immune Mafia role via IAI)
Tracker
Jailkeeper
2 Shot Doc
FBI Agent
Neighborizor
5 VT (with 2 of the you also VT)

Versus

Serial Killer

Versus

Mafia Roles

–

Watcher
Goon
??? times 2 (assumed)

Is it your contention that the remaining scum players don’t have some other PowerRoles to offset the two Town investigation roles that could find them (Vanilla Cop directly detecting and the Tracker tracking), to offset the Jailkeeper and Doc who can prevent their kills?

"Null at best", really? Does that mean it's actually evidence against me at worst? What?

No it means your attempts to use percentages that have no relevance to the actual game (your invoking of Bayes Theory) don’t result in a ‘Town tell’ via the negative result.

If redFF had been a real bodyguard, they would have to work their way through him anyway, no?

Yes they would, and that further strengthens that the last scum are in the VT set. Scum had the choice to shoot either the Vanilla Cop who was slated to be Bodyguarded, the Jailkeeper, or the Tracker. All of which are dangerous to their long term chances at winning.

Yet the Scum chose to shoot Muffin first. Despite the planned protection (and you can argue about whether they knew at that stage that redFF was lying or not). So instead of killing the Tracker or Jailkeeper when shooting a protected Muffin (sans Strongman or other elements that we don’t know in the set-up as it stands) and having him actually protected means that they kill redFF (not a very strong player) and leave all three dangerous Town PRs alive another Night. So the inherent danger of Muffin’s role had to greatly outweight the dangers of leaving all three Town PRs alive another Night. That’s pretty clear evidence that the remaining scum are in the VT pool (to those not me, as I’m 100% sure since I know I’m Town and the rest of you are VT claims).

In fact the fact that Alice was killed last indicates that a Ninja is a strong possibility for one of the remaining scum roles.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Having’s Post 705 strikes me as “Ooops, did I kill the wrong person at Night” given the ‘Why is CES coming after me’ stance.

Nobody Special needs prodded ….

--

Don't think it needs much elaboration. It felt like a town post; doesn't get rid of my suspicions - it just didn't feel like a scum post.

Well if it’s just a matter of gut that’s fine. I thought there might be an explainable reason behind your conclusion.

What was IaI's original claim? On page 68 of pre-crash, I'm seeing MoI respond to IaI in which he states "I thought my protection on Thor was the reason for only 1 NK, and did not want to leave a trail that I was the one protecting him."

I wouldn't normally expect scum to claim to have protected their partner, especially when fake claiming.

IAI originally claimed VT in the mass-claim process Day 3. When muffin busted him on that he then tried to claim Weak Doc who protected Thor (thus confirming him as Town).

--

Why are you bringing my "slot" into this?

Why would I not? Your slot is the sum of the play of all the players who occupied it. No reason to just ignore what happened before you replaced in.

I know what question I'm asking and I assure you that it hasn't been answered.

No, again the question has been answered. You want to ask why I decided to use my limited shots Day 1 and Day 2?

Nope. That still gives the Cop plenty of viable targets and is just generally powerful enough that a GF is not that big a deal. But I would think most trackers try to catch the scum nightkill in progress and a ninja throws that straight out of the window.

Well this is pretty absurd given the presence of a Ninja simply means the Tracker can catch the 3 of the 4 expected scum making Nightkills and at least one taking other actions (which he did).

Yup. Town needs power to offset scum's inherent advantages. I see decent investigative power, some protective power (depends in part of your alignment) and some scum role-coppish power to compensate. Looks balanced to me with 2 Goons.

Yeah, that’s a pretty bad conclusion IMO. Not sure if it comes from a scum perspective or not. If I can get motivated I’ll review other completed Large Normals for comparision.

Whatever approach they took, scum wouldn't've been able to avoid shooting redFF if he had been a real bodyguard, so long term killing redFF is not at all problematic. Leaving the Tracker of Jailkeeper for one extra Night doesn't strike me as that big a deal in what was still a decently sized game, certainly not compared to the Vanilla Cop getting more innocent result on VTs.

Gut says this ‘conclusion’ you are making is more driven by avoiding suspicion of your slot (via disputing the obvious logical conclusion that both expected scum are in the VT slots) than actual logic reasoning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And that relates to my Fitzread how? It doesn't.

Actually it does. Your slot saw fit to basically ignore fitz and his scumminess right up until today. In fact Thor laid down the classic “I’ll always vote fitz because he’s always scummy to me” line distancing line as he was busy pushing horrible mislynches. That is incredibly relevant to my assessment of you and the quality of your read on fitz.

If you have a Ninja, you use the Ninja to make the kill, obviously. And I don't see how the Tracker result contributed to Jason getting lynched (although I admit it definitely could have in other circumstances).

Yes, but your argument pre-supposes that a Town Tracker is ‘always’ useless. The Ninja gets caught by the Vanilla Town Cop and lynched and suddenly he’s not able to make that kill.

Nope. There's nothing weird about the scum going after the strongest PR there.

Yes, but the Vanilla Cop is only the strongest role there if he’s capable of catching the scum. The Tracker would be a much more dangerous role if one of the remaining scum was Investigation Immune as a Godfather can still be tracked.

So once again … you arguments seem quite crafted to fit to your stance as opposed to finding your stance based on the logical course of events.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI is still dodging the DV N1 protect question.

Well at this stage the proper response is –

3 questions

1 question asked 3 times, 3 answers.

You're boring.

I’m pretty much objective Town beyond any attempt to say otherwise at this juncture.

--

Prod received. I saw daybreak, and the weekend got real crazy.

So Day broke on Friday the 20th at 11:50pm. Between that time and this post you had time to make over 30 posts on site. So why exactly was the weekend so busy that you didn’t have time to pop in here and say “Yeah, I saw the flips, have a busy weekend”?

Not really buying this excuse.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4:30 PM EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Still waiting on actual content from Nobody Special …

--

Tammy, no, I don't particularly think so. Lowell missing a nightkill is plenty plausible though. (And MoI would've known there was a missing nightkill; I'm annoyed I can't go back to look at the timing of his claim. It really does neatly explain why there's this awkward DV protect in his claim. He doesn't want to still have a doc protect left and one-shot doctor sounds really convenient, so he decides to claim 2-shot and claims to have protected DV without really thinking through whether he would've used his shot that Night.)

Don’t let the fact that I breadcrumbed Day 1 before any kills were missing my limited Doc status get in the way of your ever increasing stretching to justify a scenario where my claim is fake.

So now we have a vote down – now let us see where the chips fall.

[MagnaofIllusion]

2) Nice to see you're still dodging the DV protect question, MoI.

Keep repeating the lie about dodging enough and what? People will think you aren't scum trying to fruitlessly undermine the closest to confirmed Town?

Yup, you are boring CES.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well the weekend has come and gone without NS / Tammy quickhammering fitz. So worst case either CES or fitz is scum.

VOTE: Fitz

I’ve specifically avoided poking at either NS or you in any strong degree since the Day started to see what you both would do regarding my back and forth with CES.

Both of you pretty much have ignored it. Which is exactly the kind of behavior I’d expect from scum at a possible LYLO situation. Tammy has been engaged in the matter and if it weren’t for some absolutely odd posting in the Neighborhood QT I would not be second-guessing Magua’s Town read on her.

Add in my scum-read on you from prior days and I'm comfortable making this vote.

NS / Tammy aren’t the remaining scum together unless you are Town. And I don’t think you are.

I’ll be re-reading everyone this week.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Um do you really have to leave that vote on Fitz? I'm really doubting you right now MoI. You've just stated that you think you think that one of NS or I aren't town and you leave Fitz at L-1?

Are you absolutely convinced he's scum then?

Explain please.

Yes, I'm leaving that vote there. I've had a scum-read on fitz (as you have noted) for a significant part of the game. having's play surrounding my CES inquiry and back and forth (along with NS's BTW) fits with scum.

I know I'm Town.
You and NS had ample opportunity to quickhammer this weekend if he was Town. So you both aren't the scum-team.
That means that one of Having / CES has to be scum. It's simple POE mechanics. Scum don't pass up the chance to quick-hammer if it is provided.

Do you think having isn't scum? If not from your perspective who is the scum team and why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well let's see, in the situation that Havingfitz is town, excluding yourself and the obvious NS and I aren't partners because we were here over the weekend. If you are town then you don't know anyone else's alignments. So, NS and I aren't partners, but CES and I could be. CES and NS could be. And you leaving the vote there makes it possible for one of us to hammer.

Given that your whole paragraph here is predicated on having being Town (which is not my read) I’m not sure why you are playing ‘hypotheticalls’. If having is Town and I’m incorrect then yes, scum can hammer him unless CES is scum and the only one remaining. I’ll take the blame if that’s the case. But that’s certainly not enough for me to reverse my read.

Well obviously not me because I would have hammered, but you must be pretty convinced that none of NS/CES/ME are partnered if you're town MoI.

Um again this is predicated on fitz being Town. I’m pretty sold on that not being the case.

I just think it's a really strange chance that you are taking right now. You say you'll be re-reading everyone this week, but you leave your vote there in a place where there might not be a rest of the week.

Well perhaps given I think fitz is scum I’m looking for his partner among the rest of you. How is this difficult to process?

But also noted MoI, that right after I tell you in the neighborhood that I can't rule out a partnership with you and havingfitz and ask if you'd be willing to vote him today, you run in here and vote him.

I was reading your most recent frustrations with me as a town-tell, but now I'm not so sure.

It’s funny you write this. I specifically said in the QT before this day got rolling that I was going to be focusing on CES to see both fitz and NS’s reactions. And I did so. Then I go LA and you posted a veritable crapton of stuff basically saying I was possibly scum with everyone but yourself and pretty much waffled back and forth on everything. And yet now you seem to somehow think my suspicion of fitz is odd?

Here’s the question – do you think having is scum? Yes or no. You didn’t answer and your evasiveness is further degrading my faith in Magua’s read on you.

--

MoI: Let's assume fitz is scum.

Who's his partner?

You. Given you’ve really not mentioned him all game, specifically avoided putting him at L-1 (in what I think is a complete ‘faux Town’ play BTW) and voted me instead I think you are far and away the best bet for partner.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fascinating response that is completely useless -

Why don't you think fitz is scum? He's been on the wrong side of the vote-count for every important lynch this game (voted for Palisade, did not vote for Jason) and his play reads as scum-fitz to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So everyone who is not voting fitz and not fitz himself has posted and NOT hammered.

So the following are the ONLY situations that make sense (aside from an asshole team stringing things out) -

1. Fitz is scum, or
2. Both CES and I are scum together, or
3. We only have 1 scum left so today isn't LYLO.

Mull this over ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from today at 4:30pm EDT until Monday AM for my usual weekend family duties.

--

MoI - You get my first question. I asked this to you before in the neighborhood and you went all evadey not really answering it in a way that makes sense, so here again:

Um postgame we can hash out who went ‘evadey’ in the QT.

The fact that right after fitz got hammered your immediate response was “Lulz, kill me” and basically stating that you didn’t want to discuss anything combined with your day-posts that whole day that I have previously described as “Look at me I’m Town Town Town” doesn’t sit well with me.

MoI - You posted this in the neighborhood on 4/9 "Also - for the record I'm not 100% sold on the existence of a Serial Killer. I think Tammy is probably the best bet for scum (no matter what flavor) so that is where my vote is."

You changed your vote from me to DY on 4/11 after the mod cleared up the issue that made it more likely that I wasn't SK. However, this statement would suggest that you believed I was mafia anyway. Your change of vote from me to DY indicated that it was based on my SK status getting cleared up. If your vote on me wasn't based solely on the belief of me being SK, why would Magua's change of vote and my status of SK being rather unlikely be enough for you to change your vote from me? You had already stated in an earlier post that Snake was your top choice for mafia out of the VT's, so why didn't you keep pushing that?

So what questions are you asking here. Let’s see …

1. Let me go restore the QT to my active list and quote my response to you –

The vote and posturing was 100% pressure based. Snake had coasted far too long and I'll be frank ... the time had passed where I could keep giving him a pass and not try to dig into his alignment. Dropping a vote on him and making him my 'top suspect' was my recourse. It actually paid dividends once Magua jumped on-board with his "Snake flake" theory. Your responses and play surrounding the wagon didn't strike me as "Scum caught for the wrong reason" as Magua elaborated on.

At this stage I'm leaning on his gut regarding calling you Town a bit also.

So whether you accept what I am saying is up to you. Trying to say I avoided it not really accuratein the least.

I'm still waiting on an answer to this question as well MoI.

What answer are you waiting on? Seriously. Of course I didn’t ‘forget’ my fitz read. The question is clearly stated in such a way that only one answer comes regardless of my aligment.

So my question to you is – should I not have had more than 1 scum read?

Jason was lynched Day 4. On Day 5 the day started with Darth (who was a scum read of mine – you may want to discount it based on his later flip but I found his play suspect Day 1 and Day 2 and the Town PR spread indicated he could easily have been faking the FBI Agent as the safest information role-claim) having failed to make his agreed upon scan and another Night of 1 kill only in the books. The fact that fitz was a scum-read doesn’t obligate me to attack him only. Darth was a bigger scum read at the time.

Snake returned with yet more play that didn’t given any indication of Town perspective so I voted him as explained above. Soon after Magua replaces in and leads further pressure on the slot. Here are some of the QT posts we made back and forth after that to remind you –

Ok, feel free to think that. I'm not going to argue this with you since you can just read my response to Darth in thread when he floated the same things.

Scum is 1 of - Darth / redFF

Scum is 1 to 2 of - Snake / Having / NS with an outside shot at Jon.

Alice is as Mod confirmed Town as you can get barring some major fuckcluster where we have two Mafia factions yet have only had 1 kill a Night.

You are about 95% Town. Ghostlin's play was solid and Pro-Town and the proven claim means you are likely only scum if we are in 13-5.

So, I don't think you're mafia.

But I'm still like 25% that you're the SK. Which I do think exists.

Still, even if you're the SK, you want to help lynch the Mafia. So let's do that.

I don't see how a 5-man scumteam is balanced in 18 player. Town would lose after 4 mislynches but would have to lynch correctly 5 times to win -- 10v3 is town loses after 4 mislynches and needs 3 correct to win, so it would essentially be 10v3 but *harder*.

4-man scumteam+SK or 3-man scumteam+SK both seem possible and are what I'm looking at.

havingfitz actually fits, from the vote counts, in being a scum-member, but I totally don't get that from reading his posts. Maybe he simply is scum and I don't give him enough credit, treating him too much like a newbie. The other top scumreads tend to have problems because it involves them bussing in situations that already look bad for them -- redFF, DeasVail are both on IaI D3 in a position where it looks pretty much exactly like jason is going to get lynched D4. Really have a hard time seeing redFF in that position; maybe DeasVail could do it.

So Magua I find Town. And he has clearly no interest in pushing having as he had a Town read on the slot. But he didn’t on Darth (as much as he thought the possibility of a Scum FBI Agent was viable). So once I followed his lead to it’s conclusion on your slot I went back to my most viable candidate … Darth.

And Deas ends up taking the rope. Are you suggesting I wasn’t working in a Town fashion in working with my strongest Town read (outside of Alice, who also supported Darth as scum) to lynch Darth (incorrectly, but for valid reasons IMO).

So then Day 6 dawns and clearly redFF is the Serial Killer. Should I have not voted for him that day?

That leads us to yesterday where Having takes the rope.

I’d really like you to summarize why you find my behavior suspect. Also please keep it independent of NS’s behavior.

Still waiting on an answer for this too. Of course you don't need to answer about Fitz, but why were you voting Yoshi while saying that Having was mafia scum? Did you forget the day before you said you'd be pushing Fitz if it weren't for Jason being scum?

I think the above is answered also but let me know if you don’t feel it is.

CES's death makes it less likely to me that Nobody Special is the killer. He had every reason to keep CES alive. I stated in one of my last posts that I was suspecting him, and CES stated in one of his last posts that MoI was the last killer. Nobody Special's best chance of winning this was to leave CES alive.

CES's death makes the most sense for MoI as a killer, but I keep getting hung up on Magua's night kill. I guess from a technical standpoint it makes sense for him to night kill Magua as he was pretty much PI'd by all of us and MoI wouldn't be able to hide behind him. BUT Magua also had a town read on MoI, and with so many people suspecting MoI it seems like a dangerous thing to kill someone who had a town read on you. The safer thing I think would have been to night kill CES on the night he killed Magua then try to get NS lynched yesterday. Based on things said here and in the neighborhood, I think that would have been a plausible strategy. <-----BUT, I get tripped up on things like this all the time.

FUCK. (Someone take me back to midgame where it's nice and cozy and I'm somewhat effective.)

My question to you on this (regarding kills after the danger Powerroles were taken out) –

Does Magua dying benefit me in any way by framing anyone else? Does Magua dying hurt me?

Does CES dying benefit Nobody in any way by framing anyone else? Does CES dying hurt Nobody?

[MagnaofIllusion]

My next step, with questions removed, is to look at both your slot's ISOs in context of all the dead scum. I'll be doing that either over the weekend or after I get back from LA. I'll have questions for you both then.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've not got time for a full reply to ALL the stuff written now of course so I will make the move that is obvious

Tammy has passed hammering me. She can't be scum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

When I get back and have the full time (assuming the game isn't ended prematurely) I'll respond to Tammy's many posts and make my case for why NS is the last scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Been prodded.

Work has been busy and Team Mafia is taking most of my focus. Sorry.

NS - want to suggest I'm particularly avoiding the thread. Have at it. Would be the most relevant reason you possibly have given all game as to why I am scum (even thought it is, of course, wrong).

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4:30pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties. And specifically this weekend with a charity golf Scramble on Saturday to help with and Mother’s Day on Sunday my posting is likely to be restricted to late nights if at all.

Yes, I’ve been derelict. I’ll be working (as much as I can, anyway) over the weekend to respond to Tammy’s avalanche of posts and make a concise case on NS for scum.

I promise (and may you hang my if I don’t comply) to have it fully up by this time Tuesday at the latest!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah yeah I've been prodded.

NS do you really think I would worry about making a case on you because you were 'so Town' if I was scum? Seriously that's such an absurd statment I find it funny. Especially given Harry Potter where I was able to counterclaim your RoleName and get you lynched easily when you true claimed.

Team Mafia is more important. Tuesday isn't over. Live with disappointment today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Honestly how I wasn't lynched Day 2 I don't even know.

This game came on the tail end of a large run of scum games and by the time it started I was so sick of playing scum I decide to play "I'll lurk Day 1 like NS and Lowell".

I do sort of apologize for not giving more effort this last day ... Team Mafia is really taking up most of my focus. Sorry Zach and sorry teammates. I'm a bad MoI.

I also decided to not be an ass and post a "Nice Job for lynching Town" troll post for Tammy because she did a good job replacing that lump of a slot.

I further HATE late-game replacements. Having jon nicely crafted for a possible mislynch and that slot getting a replacement Halo is terrible.

I should have also not killed Magua. I could have ridden that Town read 1 more Day ...

Also I'd like to thank Zach for sticking me with the one actual role that was limited use No way with a Tracker around for me to fake-claim a full Doctor.

Also - redFF gets credit for the Town win for getting so easily blocked so many times. Did he really try to kill IAI Night 2?

I wouldn't feel too vindicated NS ... it took me completely ignoring the game for you to get this victory ...