ny 157 ENDGAME RIP 2 KEVIN COSTNER (secret waterworld flavor

[Furry]

/confirm

We should massclaim.

[Furry]

We should massclaim.

this is literally a terrible idea

Why?

Everything points to it being a great idea. Have you read the sample scum PMs that basically say "you shoud massclaim day one"?

[Furry]

explain how its a good idea at all?

Reading the sample PMs there are four scum with passive daytalk. That balances at about a 24-28 player game depending on how much reviewers value daytalk. We have way less then that so it suggests that we have a very large amount of power and thats assuming that scum have few to no PRs. If they have two... it would probably take at least six town PRs to balance, and an all vanilla scum setup would probably take three depending on strength.

Second, im not vanilla which is why im proposing this. I have one of the roles that gets much stronger if a massclaim happens. By much stronger I mean it goes from weak to exceedingly dangerous for scum. When you couple that we probably have a lot of roles to work with with my role actually being better post massclaim. I think a quick massclaim to start this game is the best way to go about things.

[Furry]

Ok we are for sure massclaiming now.

inte or shamrock should start since both are scummy. I claim LAST. Popcorn and move on. We scumhunt while its going on.

[Furry]

I do not like the idea of mass-claiming

Learn to like it hun. Two PRs have already claimed. Its happening.

Vote Shamrock

I could also endorse inte wagon, maybe IAI wagon.

kondi, peta, me and sal are town.

[Furry]

Orrrrr maybe there would turn out to be no dayvig in the setup?

Whats your point behind this?

Massclaim seems like a pretty good way of getting our cop/watcher killed if he exists. I guess it could be useful to, say, if there are two bookies in the setup kill them both since probably one is town and one is scum, but that seems like a pretty big gamble that the setup is built this way and it's probably not worth it imo

Massclaim is ultra useful since we have a claimed day vig. Thats a confirmed town role.

DMS needs to read and stop claiming out of turn.

[Furry]

Day vig is mod confirmed town role. They are both taking a shot today, but not right now.

We need to finish this massclaim first.

[Furry]

*sigh*

OAFE... hun I love your enthusiasm but you are wrong about so much please just step back for a second.

First - BOTH of the dayvigs are proving themselves today. The kill does not end the day so there is no problem with both shooting and confirming themselves as town.

Second - As I am a PR who gets better after a massclaim, we are massclaiming. If someone refuses to massclaim, we can just shoot them. Thats the benifit of the day vig

Third - You do not shoot anyone who has not claimed unless they are refusing to claim.

Here is the plan of attack for today
1) We finish a massclaim. inte is up
2) Both the vigs shoot
3) If a vig doesnt shoot, we lynch them
4) If both vigs shoot, we basically get three lynches, two confirmed town, and me being a huge thorn in the scums side.

Shamrock can become maybe town which kondi drops into for a really bad last couple pages.

Lynch list is inte and DV now

Vote DV

[Furry]

Stop breaking my rules. You didnt let either of them claim.

Vote OAFE

He repetedly called for a vig of a player who had not claimed. There is zero town motivation to do something like that.

inte and OAFE need to claim in their next posts.

@inte - There are two, maybe three roles that get better after a massclaim. It shouldnt be that hard to figure out what I might be. Use your head here hun, im not incompetent and have figured out that the massclaim, now especially since we have two mod confirmed town, is a good thing.

[Furry]

if she can't explain why its a good idea then how the fuck can we trust her motives are true? regardless if i understand why its a good idea, if she is just parroting the strategy for town-points ya'll are letting yourself get fucked

Massclaim. If you dont like what I have at the end of it you are fully free to call me scum and try to lynch me for it. Over half the game has claimed/softclaimed so we are going through with it. The amount of claims that are non-VT make me all the more strong, me claiming last makes it even stronger. Im not trying to get mad at you hun, but just because you dont understand me because you are convinced massclaim is bad because 'it is' or something doesnt mean I am wrong.

Also if saying massclaim is good for town points, it means massclaim is good right? So you refusing to massclaim is scummy?

Eh heck with it. I will claim to prove why massclaim is good

Im a role cop. Problem is I get vanilla results on goon or VT. Thats why I want a massclaim, since I can start clearing or catching claimed PRs. We have two cleared players, and each night im left alive it clears another player or I catch scum. That means scum need to shut me down immediately or im just going to keep clearing town or catching scum. The reason I didnt want to claim is because it didnt make what to claim obvious for scum, but at this point there are enough that have claimed PR or breadcrumbed it hard enough that if they arent a PR they are scum. I am stronger after a claim because I for sure clear/catch a player each action I sumbit. Before I have a high chance of just hitting VT and thats a useless result for me.

We can just lynch OAFE now for pushing through a vig without a claim hard, which there is zero town motivation to do since there are a handful of confirmable town roles.

[Furry]

As I said, there was no reason to mass claim, if we get results tonight then we can have the exact same situation tomorrow where people have to claim truthful or get lynched, accept they wouldn't have known that, and they wouldn't have perfect information on their shots tonight. Day 2 was the day to massclaim as I've said many times now.

Incorrect.

I need to debate if you still die or not due to the way you went about the whole day vig thing which was almost as anti-town as you could have. Looking back you did allude to a PR though that would benifit from early claim, and im not sure why scum rolecop would favor D2 massclaim that strongly. Massclaim will finish now.

Vote IAI

Code: Select all

1. scooby
3. splitfarvle
4. i am innocent
5. furry - role cop
6. nobody special
8. onceandforever - role cop
9. salamence20 - day vig
10. petapan
11. code_x
12. thetrollie
13. inte
14. natalie - day vig
15. hayker
16. kondi - vanilla
17. drmyshotgun

Eyes on the three or four that are really obviously one of VT or PR.

[Furry]

inte. I could live with IAI if he shows up first though.

If inte is like this 100% of the time, it would mean he is a decent lynch 100% of the time. Thems the breaks.

[Furry]

@scooby - Why is massclaim scummy? Thats one that no one ever answers apart from "because it is", so I would like to see how you think it would be when we already have two confirmed town and a third of the game hardclaimed.

[Furry]

Pretty much all the games are designed to not be broken by D1 massclaim... show me one where it has worked

No they arent. They are designed to play out fair over a large number of samples, some games town can gain an upperhand with an early massclaim because there are a few too many powers for scum to deal with early on.

For one where it works... go look at any power heavy game. Almost all of those are town massclaim++

Furry is scum because he is not follloiwing the logical reasoing a town PR would have. (staying alive for ffs)

Ummm.. hun? You dont understand what you are supposed to do as town do you?

Staying alive is not the goal. The goal is catching scum. My role is better if we force a masclaim, and so is OAFE is he is town. It can tell us instantly if a claimer is lying about theirs or not. Right now most results for us are useless, and a claim makes us more likely to obtain a useable result.

With two confirmed town, we also would either tie up and scum RBer or possibly draw the kill away from confirmed town if there is no other way to deal with us for scum.

Its the right move whether you think it is or not. The only way its a remotely neutral move is if OAFE is scum or scum have a pair of RBers and we have no other active PRs. Even then its still slightly pro-town.

[Furry]

Im done posting until mod does something about the way these last few pages have been going. If he isnt going to im done. inte/peta/scooby all should be on a tight leash or just flat out force replaced.

[Furry]

For whoever was talking about it, the 'town or scum' roles is another reason that massclaim is good with my role. It shows me what slots are 100% useless to actually target, as it tells me nothing about alignment.

[Furry]

We need to finish massclaiming ASAP.

Then lynch one of IAI, scooby, maybe DMS, maybe Trollie.

[Furry]

nope

massclaim is still the right solution as it rapidly increases the strength of just about every role we could feasably have at this point. Just because very few actually realize that in the current site meta of PR heavy games its a good thing doesnt mean that it isnt a good thing. Really with two confirmed town already putting everything out there early will just ratchet up the strength of just about every town PR there is.

No one has ever said why its bad, just that they think its bad because 'it is'.

[Furry]

actually massclaim is terrible because it tells the scum exactly who to shoot (no protective roles) and potentially also who to roleblock, if they have one (and with already five confirmed/claimed power roles we can be pretty fucking sure they do).

and just to let you know your role (if you were town) is actually completely awful for a massclaim. oh no, now the scum know there are two role cops, so they've just

claim their role

. woops, role cops no longer useful.

Thats actually what im aiming for. Role cop is not the strongest thing in the world but has potential to catch scum and clear other claimed only town PRs. Forcing out other roles is going to mean scum cant kill/block all of us, and there will be shots that get off. Scum claiming their role is also good because it makes all the claimed town PRs all that more likely to actually be town, creating an even larger group of confirmed town. Compounding that is that there is a high chance of scum PRs that we can pick up, and therefore can be caught, making scum have to suddenly deal with PR threats and with confirmed town threats.

Unless scum team is something like all RBers, massclaim is good. I would be stunned if scum had enough power to easily deal with a massclaim without letting at least a few PRs off the hook for a night, or being forced to leave both vigs alive for another day.

[Furry]

@IAI - If you need me to be explicit

1) You vote kondi for doing something that is pro-town in getting the vigs to claim early. The earlier they claim the more we can streamline what we actually do here.
2) You take an "im not moving" stance while ignoring what are some semi-serious votes going around, and completely ignoring anything related to who actually should be vigged.
3) You actually show no interest in lynching me until it appears to become an option. Why would town care at all if they think its an option or not and want to see some support? Scum I can see being afraid of going for a power player.

1st underlined: How does a rolecop differ between vanilla town/vanilla goon. Or Town Neighborizer/Scum Neighborizer. Or Town Roleblocker/Scum Roleblocker. Or dare I say, Town RoleCop/Scum Rolecop. IT DOESN'T. So clearing other claimed town PR's IS NOT TRUE.

Other PRs hun. I didnt think that I would need to hold your hand but apparently I do if you are going to try and make anything I say into a scumtell. That part of why I want a claim. Those roles get caught if they claim through standard actions, so if they get claimed scum are caught or its a real claim that I know not to touch.

2nd underlined: But Scum can pick the most important roles to kill/block. With no information, they are purely guessing and more powers (particularly the better powers) are likely to go through.

Most important role is day vig. If massclaim buys them a few days its worth it. You know... 100% confirmed town roles that we are keeping alive with threats of other stuff?

3rd underlined: See the 1st underlined. The setup is as it is to devalue a rolecop. Make it easier for scum to fake claim....for instance, I could see a Scum Rolecop asking for a mass claim under the pretense that he is a Town Rolecop. The only person he'd have to worry about is the cop, and with no protective roles, heck you, I mean he/she could snuff them out pretty easy, don't you think???

Even if you want to aruge all scum are town/scum roles, the only way rolecop is weak is if they all claim it AND there are not town only roles.

[Furry]

1) You vote kondi for doing something that is pro-town in getting the vigs to claim early. The earlier they claim the more we can streamline what we actually do here.
2) You take an "im not moving" stance while ignoring what are some semi-serious votes going around, and completely ignoring anything related to who actually should be vigged.
3) You actually show no interest in lynching me until it appears to become an option. Why would town care at all if they think its an option or not and want to see some support? Scum I can see being afraid of going for a power player.

1) Read my line above and answer the same question too. Specifically, how it is pro-town what was done.
1 continued) The later they claim, the closer to endgame they make it (this is good to have confirmed town at the endgame). Also, their shots wouldn't have been so random. Which is also good/protown. You can claim all you want that "is pro-town in getting the vigs to claim early", but that doesn't make it true.
2) Mine was a very serious vote. Scum is pushing for the massclaim and/or vigs to be outted. At least one of you or kondi are scum, that I am confident of.
2 continued) Caught a lie in there (actually two). I wanted kondi vig'd (see 34), but I also mentioned that if Salamence did not fire a shot, that Natalie should shoot him (see 166). So saying I completely ignored it is yet another lie to chalk up to you.
3) No, I supported your lynch when two people claimed rolecop and one of them was you. I already expressed my doubts of two town rolecops, so the fact you went first gives more credence to the counterclaim by the real town rolecop imo. But nice try.

1) Vigs shooting day one is pro-town because there are two of them. It creates a pair of players scum need to kill as they are confirmed town to couple with players who have active roles. I dont like how early they shot, but it doesnt make what kondi did anti-town. If the vigs are out, scum have to choose between killing confirmed town and threat town. Have you ever been scum when trying to choose between which of those to kill? It makes things very difficult.
2) You never answered why kondi is scum for that push so... im waiting there. You also are mixing up scumhunting with setup work. You talked about the obvious way for roles to prove themselves but did nothing to try and catch scum. Since when is saying "the vig shoots to prove itself" scumhunting? Thats like arguing a cop guilty claim is scumhunting.
3) Ok so you are voting me because there are two claimed rolecops, NOT because of massclaim. Good to know I guess but that doesnt fit in with anything else you say.

100% AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.

And you and kondi with your mass claiming and fake day vig killed them off. There is 0 chance with no protective roles that they make it to the end game. So why do you keep saying it is pro-town to out them D1, forcing random shots with little information prior to them getting snuffed out?!?!?

I cant believe you dont understand basics of mafia this much. If they are revealed early it puts immediate pressure on scum to have to deal with them. If they are revealed, they get killed over PRs. With PRs out too, scum either have to deal with a bunch of players running around threatening to confirm others or letting confirmed town live. When massclaim boosts the strength of some roles (mine) I am fine letting scum choose what they want to deal with.

Town only roles will get snuffed out with no protection. I only hope the more I say it the more you either agree or just confirm you are Scum already.

You are wrong is all I can say. If you refuse to see that you are right, I cant help you. Who cares if town roles that arent the vigs die? It leaves confirmed town in the game. I would be thrilled to see a dead anything but a vig tomorrow.

Furry, will you lynch Kondi? He has claimed VT and you already said that was your preference D1?

No... im not moving my vote from you. Kondi is probably town either way.

[Furry]

honestly i think he'd be a smart enough player that he could possibly fake that or simply not have known the setup rules but still be scum

Its either faked or he is not actually reading my posts.

[Furry]

vote scooby

Thinking he is the fourth scum in his group. IAI is good pick too, the "only three scum" is horribly faked. NS/Tammy/inte/rofl... something like that should clean it up.

hayker is probably town and just the easy wagon. Ive seen town say stuff like that way more than scum say stuff like that.

[Furry]

You are dying after me so...

lol

nervous scum

lol?

Yeah see I can make useless posts too.

Seriously though, hayker wagon just looks all types of ugly. His push on inte is a town push because while he disagrees with my theory he is making a very good point against another who disagrees with it. The "Furry is scummy" post also is written from what I think almost any town would think at that point in time. He is almost for sure town.

Im not voting him, I dont care if it gets me lynched im not voting a strong town read.

[Furry]

wait....

The main case on Hayker is the "lynch furry if he isnt killed tonight" right? Something along those lines yes?

[Furry]

I actually want scooby to answer that one first.

[Furry]

furry saying x-x-x scumteam doesn't mean there can't be more x's, i'm reading the thread i know there are four scum.

He is only searching for three scum though. There is a difference between calling three people scum and looking for exactly three.

[Furry]

furry saying x-x-x scumteam doesn't mean there can't be more x's, i'm reading the thread i know there are four scum.

He is only searching for three scum though. There is a difference between calling three people scum and looking for exactly three.

what? how does me naming three people as scum at all mean that i am only searching for three scum?

You arent. He isnt bothering to look for a fourth shown by his list of suspect post.

Plus im pretty sure I have him caught right now once he responds. So thats a plus.

[Furry]

Just to make sure, you are lynching scooby after I flip town right? Dont lynch Hayker because scooby-scum is more evidence for him being town, scooby goes right after I do.

[Furry]

Wait for scooby to make his response to me. Im pretty sure he is scum from something else I havent mentioned but want to see if he digs himself a deeper hole first.

[Furry]

Wait for scooby to make his response to me. Im pretty sure he is scum from something else I havent mentioned but want to see if he digs himself a deeper hole first.

trying to bait scooby into a scummy response so you can call it scummy.

thats scummy.

I have a case on him already that is more than what I said, im just looking to see if he validates it moreso or not before I bring it out.

@Tammy - There isnt much to defend Hayker with, and I stand a better chance at defending him if I can prove scooby is more likely to be scum in the way that I will once he responds to me. Most of my defense of Hayker rides on something related to that, and that I like the way he approached the inte play early on.

[Furry]

Wait thats your case? Ok does someone have a legtimate case on Hayker?

The RVS vote... is apparently scummy? His point on inte is a very good one. He actually says he thinks kondi is town in that one post, says he is dumb regardless of alignment but opens with calling him town. Fourth post is a little meh but its not that ugly. His recent post you even agree isnt a scumtell.

Basically you are voting him because you... actually im not sure.

One of the big things that I saw the wagon was built off of was the seeming to line up a lynch of me for later in the game. Which Hayker is not the only offender, or even the most direct offender of.

Crux of the scooby case comes down to this one

we should lynch Furry tomorrow if he isnt killed tonight.

This is textbook lining up lynches. I really am not too sure you can give a better example from a game given how explicit it is. When Hayker gets railed on for something like this and no one actually even notices that scooby does it, that reads heavily with scooby being scum since its more likely to just be ignored by partners.

His entire case on me is that there arent two town rolecops. He is only looking for three scum. He is more or less BSing his case on Hayker since he voted him before half those posts were made. scooby is scum here.

Hayker has so far raised a very good point on inte, shown why kondi is town, and despite taking an odd stance on me, actually has shown where his logic comes from and it looks like a town train of thought.

@mod

- Can you warn scooby over civility again?

[Furry]

@Tammy - There isnt much to defend Hayker with, and I stand a better chance at defending him if I can prove scooby is more likely to be scum in the way that I will once he responds to me. Most of my defense of Hayker rides on something related to that, and that I like the way he approached the inte play early on.

What do you think about the fact that he voted inte in the first of his four content posts and has not moved his vote off of him or taken into consideration anything else that has happened in the thread? Or that he hasn't bothered to come back to the game since Tuesday?

inte is a great vote still. Apart from him always being a good vote because he is going to hurt the town even if he is town, he is legitimately scummy.

Hayker is going to flip town here, almost for sure

vote codex

Because he might be lynchable and is not Hayker

[Furry]

OAFE investigates Hayker tonight to prove that he is town. Since he will either get a town or RBed result, you lynch one of inte/rofl... vig another one. Not as sure on scooby anymore, he may just be scummy insufferable town and not scum.

rofl is still a very decent bet for scum as well since he actually wont scumhunt this game but instead is leading the "no massclaim" distraction talk which is what it is.

codex im torn on. He really is not paying that much attention to the game, but that tends to be a town tell.

inte/IAI/rofl I would say first tier... second DMS/scooby. I think those five net you three scum.

Vote rofl

I know im getting lynched, but this way its obvious what I think. Any vig should shoot him tonight. Go look at how he plays as town, this isnt it. He actually makes cases even though he does opearte on gut heavily. This one he is not only avoiding cases, but he is actually not commenting on other cases and threw down a vote on Hayker when the entire case on Hayker appeared to hinge on me actually being scum.

Either he gets vigged tonight or lynched tomorrow outside of a cop guilty.

[Furry]

cop =/= rolecop

codex last post is really bad though. I would lynch (in order) rofl, codex, inte. Im not voing hayker today period, will let this go to no lynch before I do that.