Mafia 58: Ready Salted - Game over!

[The Fonz]

Right, gonna do read thrus of those three guys ASAP. Will get back once done.

[The Fonz]

OK, my read on the three. Basically, at this point, I'd be happy with a K-Scope or a N9V lynch- both seem pretty likely scum to me. I'm currently leaning toward a N9V lynch, which is where my vote currently happens to be. I'm

really

not feeling a theopor lynch right now- he seems to have been doing far more to help the town than the other two.

Regarding N9V: I do feel like he has something of a point early on regarding OverTheUnder. His first eleven posts give me not that much reason to suspect him. But from his twelfth post on, there's an awful lot I don't like.

[quote]Also, one more thing. If I was in the mafia, I would've killed OverTheUnder Night1, for hammering their GodFather[/quote]

I don't see why it makes any particular sense to NK the hammerer, precisely because hammering too early looks scummy. Also seems WIFOM-y to me: 'Oh, if i

were

scum, I'd act completely different to how they did.'

We then have the vote hop, followed by:



[quote="~N9V~"][quote="Lowell"]

Moving on...

[quote="~N9V~"]OverTheUnder, if he isn't scum, then I can almost garuntee that you are lynched tommorow, but it is to late now *prays that livingod is scum*. [/quote]

Does this post look strange to anyone else? Not only is he trying the whole "two for one" lynch, he throws in the gratuitous line telling us

he wants livingod to be scum.

Methinks he doth protest too much.[/quote]

Hmm, Lowell, wouldn't you want who we lynched to be scum, or would you perfer to lynch a villager?[/quote]

Finding that comment gratuitous (ie- trying to appear town, 'Oh, I do so hope the guy we lynched is scum' without saying owt) is far from implying a desire to lynch Town. Looks very much deflection from here.

Then he claims Lowell was 'second on my radar this whole game' having not once mentioned Lowell prior to that apart from to vote on him.

Then a couple posts with not much content, a kinda non-defence defence, followed by posting that he doesn't like a BM post without expanding on it/explaining why it might be scummy.

After that, he just goes on about how he always looks scummy, which is more non-defence defence. Doesn't explain the pro-town rationale behind his actions, just says he always acts scummy.

On K-Scope: Again, nothing that suspect early. His hard pressing of the guy who did in fact come up scum, yet at the same time, showing a desire to allow him to claim, paint him in a positive light.

His 6th post:

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]

Vote: Battle Mage

Seems obvious[/quote]

Again, the vote is the first time he mentions someone whose scumminess 'seems obvious.' Well, sorry Scope, the rest of us aren't pyschic. You gotta post your reasoning, if town. This is the first of five straight posts of two lines or fewer.

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I like it how people suspect me but misserably fail in explaining why. Doesn't seem like the townie way to me.[/quote]

The irony here is palpable.

Then follows another six posts, the longest of which is two lines.

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I've got nothing to defend myself against since there aren't any points presented against me in the first place[/quote]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]

I don't think there isn't more explanation needed. You knew where I stood with my opinion.

[/quote]

Claims that no real case has been made against him, so dismisses it outta hand. Well, several people seem convinced a case exists, and it's hugely unlikely they're

all

scum. So at least one townie thinks you have a serious case to answer.

Then plenty more with little content, though he does at least do us the favour of suggesting a possible scum partnership. Mind you, he states that BM and Cheesefan are likely scum in one post, then in the very next drops Cheesefan and suggests it is Panzerjager who are scum with Twito and BM.

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="theopor_COD"]Well you switched to a pointless vote.[/quote]I was unaware of the fact that if we didn't reach a majority, there would be held a no lynch.[/quote]

Claim of stupidity for a fairly scummy action. Might buy it if that were the entirety of the case against him. In combination with the rest of his actions, I'm inclined not to.


[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote]Claiming vanilla, in my opinion, is something you should never do. [/quote]Funny how you're asking citizens to lie. Doesn't suprise me if you are scum as well.[/quote]

Either very stupid or very scummy. Saying you shouldn't claim townie is in no way the same thing as saying you should lie. It is possible to not claim.

Followed by the self-vote, which I'm really not convinced has any benefit to town. Again, stupid or scummy.
_____________________

The biggest problem I find myself with here, is that I find both of these two very scummy indeed, yet it strikes me as unlikely (though not impossible) that the two of them are scum together.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: I realise I said that post would contain my read on all three. If anyone feels my giving a similar treatment to the one given the other two to Theopor, I'd be happy to provide one tomorrow- it's late here, and I thought my views on those I'd actually consider lynching more valuable atm.

[The Fonz]

Yes, because the slip is explainable. Remember before the slip I had theopor down the list rather than higher. After the slip I pushed him up - but then the explanation made sense to me. In the end I will continue to push the players I genuinely think are scum, and not the player who may or may not have made a slip. He can be caught later if it was a genuine slip.

My vote will either be 9V who I think I was voting pre-crash anyway, or Scotmany12.

I'm inclined to agree with you, at least for now, re: Theopor.

Now, as to your own voting intentions: you seem convinced Scot is scum. Having done a readthru of you, I've yet to see a convincing case against him, he has no other votes, and the deadline is nearing. If you really want a Scotmany lynch, I suggest you make a detailed case against him

right now

, otherwise the deadline will hit without time for a decent bandwagon to build, and if one does build, he'll have precious little time to defend himself.

My own vote today will not leave N9V except possibly for Scope, but if the next post of yours is anything but a detailed case against Scot or a vote for one of the three current bandwagons, I'll be extremely suspicious.

[The Fonz]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I'm willing to change my vote to N9 if it doesn't result into another no lynch. I do not support a theo lynch, because I'd rather keep my vote on myself then.

to reply to a few question marks from Fonz:

[quote]Claims that no real case has been made against him, so dismisses it outta hand. Well, several people seem convinced a case exists, and it's hugely unlikely they're all scum. So at least one townie thinks you have a serious case to answer.[/quote]

From what I've understood, people suspect me because they think I would've bussed the mafia godfather so heavily.

BM suspects me because I called him scum right on the start of day 2 because of holding back on the livingod lynch, although he will not admit it anyway.[quote]

What? That doesn't make any sense.



[quote][quote]
Then plenty more with little content, though he does at least do us the favour of suggesting a possible scum partnership. Mind you, he states that BM and Cheesefan are likely scum in one post, then in the very next drops Cheesefan and suggests it is Panzerjager who are scum with Twito and BM.
[/quote]That's because Cheesefan was replaced and then killed. I didn't notice he got replaced nor did I knew that his replacement got killed. I've noted Panzer after that because of some scummy posts at that time.[/quote]

Fair enough, that makes sense.

[The Fonz]

I really don't understand how anyone town can think lynching themselves helps the town. Surely no lynch should always be preferable to lynching someone you know is town?

[The Fonz]

I really don't understand how anyone town can think lynching themselves helps the town. Surely no lynch should always be preferable to lynching someone you know is town?

No because people have been pushing my wagon as they have Scope and N9V, we will learn something from someone being lynched than a no lynch. The only people who benefit from a no lynch are the scum. We've had 49 pages and managed to lynch only one person a Godfather for heavens sake! We have no real voting patterns to look back at.

The difference is - if we lynch a townie, we have deaths at dawn to cope with as well. A no lynch is preferable in that situation, because even the death of a lurker will provide info now.

That said:
1. A pushed self lynch can be a scum gambit
2. A no lynch means no scum dies either
3. Any of the current bandwagons could be scum, thus we need to take the chance.

We have to take the risk and lynch someone rather than no lynch. The worst case scenario will be lynching a cop or a doc.

Hmmmm.... maybe I could see a

late

self-hammer here. But all three have expressed willingness to self-vote here, and to my mind that's certainly not something that a powerrole would do. So expressing a willingness to self-lynch just doesn't help the town. Also, of course, deprives us of the views of each on the others to an extent.

Still, I very much doubt all three are scum, so perhaps it's moot right now.

[The Fonz]

Sorry for the double post, I missed a few things on my readthru of the overnight action, which I think might be pertinent:

How about a push on Blagho.

unvote, vote Blagho

icions about OTU/Blahgo, but I definitely think N9V is more likely scum right now, and I also doubt you have time to put together a wagon to gather the required votes for lynch.

I am happier with a ~9V~ lynch than a Theopor_cod one, despite

Theopor's apparent lack of interest in the game.

Vote ~9V~

You still speak of his 'apparent lack of interest in the game'

after

he's posted such an indepth analysis of the voting record?

Vote count please

.

[The Fonz]

Aaargh, I think my messing up of the tagging there has me voting Blahgo.

Unvote, vote N9V

[The Fonz]

There are four people on bandwagons which are none of theo, Scope and N9V. Seven if we include the Theo wagon, which I really don't think is going anywhere. I strongly suggest that those on bandwagons other than scope and N9V shift their votes sharpish to whichever one seems scummiest.

[The Fonz]

Just a quick reminder for anyone- N9V has already claimed.

[The Fonz]

Well, I thought blahgo looked suspicious yesterday, but on an overnight re-reading, despite his not entirely helpful latter behaviour, I just can't see the case for accusing him on the basis of that hammer vote.

Think about it. Livingod was the Godfather. GFs are usually investigation-immune. It's absolutely in the scum's interest to have him claim powerrole there (probably cop as there could be multiple cops in a game of this size) if not counterclaimed, he's pretty safe, and indeed will come up innocent if investigated. If counterclaimed, it shows up a real powerrole. Win-win, compared to him getting quicklynched. If killing him without giving him the chance to claim is a scum action, it's a very very stupid one. I'm pretty sure it was simply the action of a newbish townie, rather than scum.

As for those I suspect: I still think N9V is scum, for the reasons outlined yesterday.

However, I'd like to float another possibility that seems to have slid under the radar so far: Rand Althor as scum.

My main basis for this is the huge, steaming pile of WIFOM that was his first post the morning after Lowell was offed:

I'm thinking that the mafia was trying to discredit the people on the Lowell lynch by killing him.

He's posted a lot, without providing much real content. (I suppose that might be newbishness/playstyle, but it's worth noting) .He voted K-scope for 'causing a no-lynch' when it would apparently have been a no-lynch either way.

I also don't like the way he day two was voting Lowell, switched to N9V, then immediately back to Lowell after Lowell's very next post. Plus the fact he said on day two:

There is a very good case against ~N9V~. He has made some really bad posts.

Unvote Lowell;Vote: N9V.

Then conspicuously votes for both K-Scope and Theo (and places a heavy FOS on Kardkraizee, who of course came up town- in isolation, it actually makes sense, but in combination with the other votes...) never once voting for N9V, despite the fact that he said there was a very good case on N9V the day before, and never posted any reasoning for why he no longer seemed as suspicious. Seems like an opportunistic scum to me.

[The Fonz]

Well, there wasn't ever any real pressure on him I don't think, all I could find was a KC FOS (which he counter-FOSed in a very OMGUS way).

As for the livingod lynch- gun to my head, I'd say there was probably one scum on the lynch. It doesn't make sense for the scum to actually lynch the GF, but at the same time for all of them to stay off is probably too incriminating. Though I can't rule out them deliberately setting up the roleclaim, as outlined above, then being thwarted by OTU's quick hammer.

What I would be wary of is anyone suggesting that most of the remaining scum likely acted in the opposite way to how they themselves did w/r/t that wagon.

[The Fonz]

If you think OTU/Blahgo are scum, it means you think my analysis re: the first post is incorrect. Can you please explain why? Scum playing WIFOM?

[The Fonz]

Fonz. I tend to think with eleven people on the Livingod wagon some of em must have been bussing, surely one or two. Out of that wagon it's worth looking at them in particular. It's not that I don't think it's possible that OTU may be town, I can just see him hammering here aswell as possibly waiting for a claim. He didn't post nothing else of note Day One and may have come back and seen his scum partner at lynch -1 and thought best to hammer to look good when he came back Godfather.

I'd agree that, simply numbers wise, getting eleven townies on a wagon like that seems unlikely. But if OTU was scum hammering, it was clearly a mistake, as I can't see the logic- giving the opportunity to claim makes OTU himself look town, and at worst it outs a power role (working on the hypothesis that town wouldn't lynch an uncounterclaimed powerrole day one). Three of the last four on were proven townie, and I think the last one on was as well. That's why, if I had to guess, I'd say only one, and therefore at this point those not on the wagon are better bets.

Purely on the voting record, I'd guess that the third and fourth votes on a scum wagon are least likely to be scum- those are the votes that made livingod from a guy who has one or two votes on him, to a guy on whom there is a noticeable wagon, marking him out as one of the lynch candidates candidate for lynch.

Of those on the wagon, N9V remains my main suspect, with Amb following (tried to distance early, then couldn't unvote because he knew it would damn him when LG came up scum?)

If you think OTU is likely to be innocent townie, what do you make of Chibo's post just before the hammer?

Silly rule.. having to post.

What is there to do ? We have no leads...

All we can do is vote someone off for silly reasons like the above. Oh, your asking for people to follow this vote so we can get on with the game... SCUM.

Funny thing is, i fully expect someone to suspect me now, it seems to be happening to eveyone in this topic and it's getting us absolutely nowhere. Just vote for 1 person so we can get on with the game.

I'm not sure right now, I'll have to do a reread of the events immediately preceding the lynch (last time i looked over that, I focussed on OTU). My initial reaction is that I could see that cutting either way- the town doesn't want a quicklynch, and encouraging one is something I'd find scummy, yet a protecting the Godfather motive is entirely plausible too.

On a related note, I do find your characterising Jalyn as 'unhelpful' a little strange. She had a candidate for scum who she was pretty vociferous in pressuring- you. Either you think her arguments against you were misplaced but fairly reasonable, in which case she ought to look town to you, or they come across as fallacious railroading, in which case the word is not 'unhelpful' but 'scummy.' She's not refraining from the debate, as she set out her case against you pretty clearly yesterday imho, which was a productive thing to do in terms of generating a read on the both of you.

Stating that the arguments that were made yesterday still stand, and inform your thinking today is something both you (re: Rand) and I (re: N9V) have done, so your suggestion that it is 'unhelpful' only in the case of Jalyn strikes me as a little off.

[The Fonz]

Vote ~N9V~

if this is what you wan, then I guess that I'm obliged by the town to do this. But you will see your error at the end of this day.

Bah, it's far too early for self-voting to be in the interests of the town, if you indeed are. How's about you post your own suspicions?

[The Fonz]

fyi, i have been told by a reliable source, that investigated GF's come up as: Townie. To this end, i find it highly illogical that a godfather would claim a power role, when he could still be proved a liar.

I thought cop investigations came up Innocent or Guilty?

Also, i have to echo Theos sentiments-if you had reread, how come you didnt pick up on the Rand Althor wagon we had yesterday?
I havent looked at his posts in particular of late, but when i last did, he struck me as very scummy. i'll reread him and then make a decision on him.
BM

Simple- this game is looooong. My reading during the day of day three focussed on those in danger of lynch, and then my re-read centred mainly on a) OverTheUnder and b) The events surrounding the Lowell lynch.

Also, the Rand Althor 'wagon' yesterday had more than one vote on it at precisely one vote count. You switch onto him before VC 24, then have switched back to your earlier K-Scope vote by the time of VC 25, due to K-Scope saying he didn't really mind being lynched. That's not really much of a wagon at all.

[The Fonz]

Actually, I'm giving alot of info to the town, they will find out that i am town, and that everyone who has defended me, is also town. The Fonz, I've alrady posted my suspicions.

This is just out of this world scummy. Even if you are town, it's ENTIRELY possible one or more scum are defending you, so as not to be in on a townie lynch, or to be seen disagreeing with their scumbuddies.

Vote: N9V

[The Fonz]

you obviously havent been cop much
Cops get a specific role when they investigate someone. just getting an affiliation is a Tracker.
if i remember rightly, the wagon had 4 or 5 people on it, and was one of the largest at the time.
BM

You remember wrongly. Look at the voting record. Theo posted it late on Day III.

And a tracker doesn't get innocent/guilty, he gets if the investigatee performed a night action, and on whom.

The Cop can investigate a player each night and find out whether they are on the Scum or Pro-Town side.

[The Fonz]

No. That's not true, he doesn't say a no lynch is preferable. I do.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: Can anyone comment on BM's cop comments? I've never, ever played in or modded a game where the Cop's results were anything but plain innocent/guilty.

[The Fonz]

Why Panzer do you have reason to believe he is not scum?

Rolefishing?

[The Fonz]

QFT. However DOS is pretty likely to be town imo, due to my analysis yesterday.

Well, I had DoS pegged as pretty town before that, so he probably gets the benefit of the doubt for now. *Sighs* seems to me pretty much everyone bar Kelly has done something pretty scummy at some point, and apparently she never looks scummy. Bah.

Sticking with N9V for now. He's clearly given up on even pretending to help the town. I mean, 'everyone who is attacking me is doing it because they're scum, and everyone who defends me is doing it because I'm town?' WTF? The only people who know you're town, if indeed you are, are scum, and possibly a power role here or there.

[The Fonz]

OK, so you're convinced that Blahgo is scum. That's something we can work with. I have presented a reason I find compelling for thinking OTU and therefore Blahgo innocent, could you please take a look at it, and tell me where you think I'm going wrong?

[The Fonz]

Bah, I never said that whoever attacked me is scum

THis is true. N9V never implied this. Reading such a thing into his posts is scummy. FOS whoever said that

Actually, I'm giving alot of info to the town, they will find out that i am town, and that everyone who has defended me, is also town.

Why Panzer do you have reason to believe he is not scum?

Hmm could it be because I'm not scum? That would be a pretty good damn answer.

Nope, it's not a good answer. 'Because I don't look scummy' is a good answer, but he's already intimated he does believe himself to look scummy. Defending him because he

is

town is the action of a scummer.

His scumlist consists of DoS, OTU/Blahgo and K-Scope. Guess who all three have been pretty consistently voting for? OTU, in particular, was on the N9V bandwagon when most people were pursuing Lowell, so it's not like he didn't have an easier town option to pursue if, indeed, he were scum.

Also, Amb, on your re-read, did the following:

~N9V~ wrote:
He was second on my radar this whole game.

Not register on your scumdar? I find it very disconcerting that he was on N9V's radar the whole time, yet N9V didn't actually mention him before then.

[The Fonz]

Bah, I never said that whoever attacked me is scum

THis is true. N9V never implied this. Reading such a thing into his posts is scummy. FOS whoever said that

Actually, I'm giving alot of info to the town, they will find out that i am town, and that everyone who has defended me, is also town.

No, this does not imply his attackers are scum, it implies that his defenders are not scum. This may or may not be correct, but it certainly doesnt implicate his attackers. Some of his attackers can easily be town as well.

Why do you quote every part of my post, APART from the bit where I actually explain how he seems to be pointing the finger at the people who are going after him the hardest? The part you quote there is the 'He's saying everyone who defends him is town' part of the argument. The bit after that was explaining why he does, indeed, seem to be implying that those who are attacking him are scum. Obviously someone on his wagon has to be town, considering he got to eight votes yesterday.

Also, Amb, on your re-read, did the following:

~N9V~ wrote:
He was second on my radar this whole game.

Not register on your scumdar? I find it very disconcerting that he was on N9V's radar the whole time, yet N9V didn't actually mention him before then.

Why would I? I have blatantly done the same thing myself.

OK, fair enough. Being a hypocrite looks even worse.

[The Fonz]

Bah, I never said that whoever attacked me is scum

THis is true. N9V never implied this. Reading such a thing into his posts is scummy. FOS whoever said that

Actually, I'm giving alot of info to the town, they will find out that i am town, and that everyone who has defended me, is also town.

No, this does not imply his attackers are scum, it implies that his defenders are not scum. This may or may not be correct, but it certainly doesnt implicate his attackers. Some of his attackers can easily be town as well.

Exactly. Why would scum defend me? Most likely, the scum are trying to push my lynch. As I said earlier, the mafia is running this game. We need to lynch another one today, or at leasthave our cop come out tommorow with their results, that is if he or the doctor isn't dead.

a) Because you're scum
or
b) To avoid taking the heat when you come up town.

And something else obvious comes to mind- if we

need

to lynch mafia today, and we're supposed to believe you're town, why the hell are you voting yourself?

Any chance of an answer on the OTU thing?

[The Fonz]

We seem to be stalling. Definitely like to hear from Blahgo and Rand here.

[The Fonz]

Prods

on rand and Blahgo perhaps, CDB?

[The Fonz]

I'm a little suspicious of anyone saying we should lynch X 'for information' because then, if he does get lynched, half the bandwagon will say they did it for information, and we don't actually get any.

[The Fonz]

Well, I thought blahgo looked suspicious yesterday, but on an overnight re-reading, despite his not entirely helpful latter behaviour, I just can't see the case for accusing him on the basis of that hammer vote.

Think about it. Livingod was the Godfather. GFs are usually investigation-immune. It's absolutely in the scum's interest to have him claim powerrole there (probably cop as there could be multiple cops in a game of this size) if not counterclaimed, he's pretty safe, and indeed will come up innocent if investigated. If counterclaimed, it shows up a real powerrole. Win-win, compared to him getting quicklynched. If killing him without giving him the chance to claim is a scum action, it's a very very stupid one. I'm pretty sure it was simply the action of a newbish townie, rather than scum.

Fonz I just want to float another theory with the hammer of Livingod with you. Eleven people on the wagon - 3 proved town near the end of the wagon. Now you say OTU would not hammer his Godfather so as the GF could claim power role. However would it not make sense for OTU to hammer here incase Livingod was killed prior to OTU. If Livingod for instance was killed the following night then OTU is going to look pretty scummy for avoiding the wagon, bit like Chibo/Jalyn does for his post just prior to the hammer vote. Anyway I'd actually like everyone to post opinions on the Livingod wagon - because he's the one known scum we've got and we found in him in like 8 pages and have taken another 46 to get nowhere.

That doesn't make too much sense to me. Had livingod claimed, he wasn't going to get nightkilled- the scum obviously wouldn't have done it, and who's going to vig a claimed powerrole? On top of it not making sense, a claimed power role is a likely doc protect.

If he subsequently gets lynched, (not that likely in the next few days, at least, since he comes up innocent to sane cop investigations) OTU-scum could have fallen back on the very reasonable defence that it was in the town's interests that livingod was given the chance to claim before being lynched.

[The Fonz]

Fonz to be fair I think there's arguments for OTU being scum or town based on his behaviour day one. Somebody on that wagon I think was scum but I also think scum avoided it, I'd be very surprised if none of em were on it, being how quickly it occured, compared to the speed of any other daytime progress. Blagho however needs to pipe up and at least post some thoughts, which he hasn't done since replacing in.

There are, but right now I find the Town ones more compelling. I find it perturbing how you seem to be suggesting that both OTU and Chibo were scummy, for acting in essentially opposite manners in the same situation.

Let me ask you this: what would you have done in that situation, both as townie not knowing LG's alignment and as scum knowing the bandwagonee is the GF?

[The Fonz]

Fonz to be fair I think there's arguments for OTU being scum or town based on his behaviour day one. Somebody on that wagon I think was scum but I also think scum avoided it, I'd be very surprised if none of em were on it, being how quickly it occured, compared to the speed of any other daytime progress. Blagho however needs to pipe up and at least post some thoughts, which he hasn't done since replacing in.

There are, but right now I find the Town ones more compelling. I find it perturbing how you seem to be suggesting that both OTU and Chibo were scummy, for acting in essentially opposite manners in the same situation.

Let me ask you this: what would you have done in that situation, both as townie not knowing LG's alignment and as scum knowing the bandwagonee is the GF?

Fonz. All I need to say is that OTU hammered without much thought, as a townie I'd have waited for a claim not gone straight ahead and done so. The evidence against Livingod was hardly damning.

As little sense as it makes for a townie to quickhammer there, it makes even less sense for a scum to quickhammer the GF. I can buy OTU being a naive enough townie to quicklynch without thinking it through. I can't buy a scummer doing it as a well thought-out tactic, and I can't buy a scummer doing it thoughtlessly either. Hence, I'm strongly inclined to believe OTU was an overeager townie.

Analysing the livingod wagon is difficult, since normally town actions like avoiding a quicklynch can be seen as having scummy motives, whilst normally scummy ones seem unlikely to have come from scum toward the godfather.

Chibo looks scummy for his two posts - the first one is just prior to OTU's hammer. Both look scummy for different reasons and looking at the Livingod wagon both to me stand out and I'd expect one of them to be likely scum, hence why both are in my possible scums with Rand.

Well, Chibo doesn't exactly cover himself in glory, but at least this:

All we can do is vote someone off for silly reasons like the above. Oh, your asking for people to follow this vote so we can get on with the game... SCUM.

Sounds like counselling against a quicklynch, and suggesting pushing for such was scummy. You've said yourself you didn't think the evidence against livingod was compelling at that point.

I'd agree that he barely provided any content, but then, he did have to be replaced. I think there's much more to be gained from assessing Jalyn herself, than on harping back on two posts (really, one) that could be explained either way. There had, after all, only been four posts from that role in total before Jalyn took it over. She herself has made around 30.

Jalyn or Blagho's play since then hasn't really swayed me otherwise.

I'd add that I wouldn't expect them both to be scum

but you never know and if we look at the Livingod wagon then Scotmany pings my scumdar aswell.

You see, this is an important clarification. After all, you did say earlier that:

This post ought to be pinned on to everyone's forehead.

Scum - Rand, Jalyn, OTU/Blahgo.

N9V just strikes me as a foolish townie.

Which sounded to me like you were fairly confident the three of them comprised the scumgroup. Did you not mean it that way, or have you changed your mind?

I'd be happy lynching either of them or Rand. N9V needs to stop feeling sorry for himself if he's town and unvote.

I'd agree. For all that I don't find your reasoning particularly convincing, having it out in the open is to the town's benefit. I'd like N9V to do likewise.

@N9V: Care to explain the reasoning behind your Rand vote?

[The Fonz]

It's only halfway to lynch in my book?

[The Fonz]

Hmmm, I can see the logic in Rand not revealing his last investigation. If it's another innocent (or indeed, another guilty if that's what he got on the two dead innocents) we can't know if he's naive/paranoid, so it's no use to us. Then again, it doesn't exactly hurt, so RA, I think you might as well. I can't see any reason why he'd be withholding a guilty at this point, if he's telling the truth.

I'd agree that the investigatees being dead is mildly suspect, but that still doesn't mean a claimed cop lynch today is anything close to a good idea.

[The Fonz]

A living innocent doesn't actually tell us anything (due to possible naivete), unless RA's PM tells him he's sure of his sanity. Still, like i said above, I can't see how it hurts.

[The Fonz]

An innocent from Amb, KC? I assume that's a typo.

Yes, sane cops are more common than naive/paranoid (we don't know what kinda investigation RA might have gotten on those confirmed innocents) but if we can't assume innocence/guilt off an investigation (and we can't, until Rand gets an investigation that points the other way) it's not terribly useful. Also, sane cops may be far more represented in the cop population as a whole, but that doesn't mean that the same is true of that sample of cops which gets three results the same in a row- because that sample contains a proportion of the sane cop total equal to the probability of hitting three innocents in a row, and all the naive cops.

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: You're also ignoring the relative payoffs. It's a much worse scenario for town to wrongly assume innocence off a naive cop investigation, than it is to not assume innocence off a sane cop investigation.

[The Fonz]

Don't you find his choicesfishy? There all dead.

And another thing, why wouldn't he choose me, Amb, and Lowell(which he did)we were the three most suspicious. Meh,I guess I'mdead now.

Unvote

Also, I think he should say who his last choice was. Honostly, I doubt he's the real cop. He won't share this bit of info, because he doesn't want to say the wrong thing for the wrong person.

Well, his initial suspicion focussed on a trio containing RW (along with cheesefan, and I can't remember off the top of my head who the third one was) so RW makes sense as an initial investigatee, then Lowell was the obvious choice night two. Don't get me wrong, picking two dead people does make sense for scum, since he'd want to avoid confirming any innocents in case of no counterclaim, or declaring his scumbuddies innocent in case there was one.

The bottom line is, there's not really anything we can do about it today. That's not nearly enough suspicion to justify lynching a claimed cop in the absence of a counterclaim (which I don't advocate, incidentally, as multiple cops seems entirely possible).

[The Fonz]

i dont understand this post. why would he be naive? It makes little sense considering his post. If he had a guilty on 1 of the confirmed innocents, I THINK HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO...

Yes, but obviously he wouldn't have a a guilty on one of the confirmed innocents, unless he's a random cop or there's some kinda scum power role distorting his findings. He'd either have it on both (insane or paranoid) or neither (sane or naive).

Also, why the hell wouldn't he be naive? If he's only got innocent results thus far, it's entirely possible.

[The Fonz]

Why the hell wouldn't there be an insane cop? Your logic is just ridiculous. Mods don't go around advertising all the power roles within their games, would they now?

[The Fonz]

no-but your assumption that such a rare role is likely to exist in this game, is insane. The fact is, insane cop is a VERY rare role, but you seem to be of the opinion that there is a good chance of it being here.
I simply want to know why you are so sure.
BM

Why the hell wouldn't there be an insane cop? Your logic is just ridiculous. Mods don't go around advertising all the power roles within their games, would they now?

I'm not assuming it's 'likely.' I'm assuming it's possible. The role is not

that

rare. It's a mistake to rule anything out until it is impossible. RA has not yet claimed to have a guilty, until he does we cannot assume he is non-naive. We can now rule out insane/paranoid, since he appears to be saying that his investigations came up innocent (note, not 'townie').

You want to know why I'm so sure that anything that hasn't been ruled out is a possibility? You are the one who appears sure that RA is sane. I am not assuming anything until I have evidence. It is likely that Rand is sane. It is not certain.

Rand, does your PM tell you you're definitely sane?

[The Fonz]

I would like to know, BM, why you think I'm scum, when after 2 days, you kept on saying that I was obviously a protown player?

Halle-freaking-lujah! A worthwhile contribution!

[The Fonz]

He's already given it. Theo.

[The Fonz]

OK, that's your right, but think about it for a second. Do you so strongly believe that Rand is scum that it's worth lynching a claimed Cop today?

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: I'd much rather wait until he gets a guilty, then lynch that player by way of test.

[The Fonz]

Panzer, let me put it this way- is there any reason not to hold off until we get a guilty off RA? If he announces a guilty on an innocent, he's put himself in the firing line. If he's scum and throws a scumbuddy under the bus, well, that's fine by me.

[The Fonz]

This isn't the first time I've thought this, but: what's your point, BM?

[The Fonz]

For starters, IH, you're the second person to ask for the night three investigation after it's been given. People who are town ought to pay more attention. If you're scum, of course, by all means continue skimming.

Secondly, I can't see how what I've been doing, in particular, constitutes trying to discredit Rand, especially when several people are openly disbelieving his claim. If he gets a guilty, we can pretty much confirm him either way.

Lastly, if you're so desperate to find out N9V's alignment, and think that N9V's being scum would point to Panzer being his buddy, why do you want to lynch panzer and not N9V? If you think two people are likely scumbuddies, is the best move not to lynch the one whose death will give the most information?

Regarding BM, his return to the N9V wagon isn't that suspicious, since he'd been there all day until switching to Rand, but I find the fact that he was on N9V early today suspicious in itself, given that he didn't seem particularly confident of N9V's scumminess yesterday:

If it comes down to deadline, and it looks like its a choice of N9V and Theo, i will have to choose the latter. Dont get me wrong, i dont think either of them are scum.

we really need a lynch today. i doubt N9V is scum-i just hope im wrong!
Unvote, Vote: N9V

Then his first vote today:

Ive also decided im going to give up attacking K-Scope. He's still scum, but a lynch of him is obviously not going to happen, so there is little point me trying.
Im also wary of how N9V has managed to survive 3 days of near-lynches because of a deadline. I have a feeling his scumbuddies mightnt have felt like bussing him.
in which case: Vote: N9V

It's the start of the day, there's plenty of time to get a wagon going on anyone. If you're a town player who's really convinced someone is scum, it's your duty to make the case as many times as is necessary. Plus, I don't personally feel a wagon stalling is a particularly great reason to vote for someone (though I do think we have plenty on N9V beyond that, which still makes him the play for today).

[The Fonz]

Care to explain your behaviour vis-a-vis N9V, BM?

[The Fonz]

Well, for starters, if you didn't think N9V was scummy, why were you voting him all day? Why did you switch back to him after Rand claimed? What changed from here:

this does seem to fit, with your gameplay and with my own suspicions.
I am inclined to believe the claim, but i wouldnt go as far to say you are confirmed.
In the meantime, i guess im back onto my N9V vote. I presumed from your vote that you didnt have a confirmed innocent on him

Vote: N9V

Kelly, would you like to outline your suspicions of Jalyn?
BM

Wellthe mafia will probably target the confirmed innocent, but the innocent is Theo.

just because Lowell was townie, does not mean that anyone who has a large wagon at deadline is...
However, i see your point about others being significantly scummier.

Unvote

I should add that whilst i believe Rands claim atm, and we certainly shouldnt lynch him today, he is far from confirmed.
BM

BM, that makes no sense because the last person who barely avoided a lynch due to deadline was Vanilla freakin' townie. That was Lowell. Which is why I seriously doubt N9V is scum. The guys who we should be worried about is Theo and K-scope, seeing those are the people who had their wagons completely derailed, K-scope's by Theo and people I can't remember and Theo's by Kelly Chen.

Is that Panzer post really enough to sway a vote?

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: There should be a 'To here' before the second quotation.

[The Fonz]

Wrong again.

[The Fonz]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote="IH"]But Kscope, I don't suspect N9V at the moment enough to lynch him. Lynching him would be like lynching someone for information.[/quote]Technicly, lynching anyone is for information, mainly on the part of whether they are town or scum, but also if their actions can be explained in a good or bad way. It isn't any different as Panzer.

[/quote]

Not really, the point of lynching is it is basically the only way (excepting vigs, and I really don't think we have one here) town can get rid of scum, which is the point of the game.

[The Fonz]

Fair enough, that's a decent point. If you don't lynch the scummiest, you either no lynch (which most people agree is bad) or lynch someone less scummy (which is just stupid).

[The Fonz]

Everyone on the N9V lynch I want you to comment on what we wil learn from lynching him for information.

I'm not on the N9V lynch for information (I think I earlier explained my thinking on that). I'm on it because I think he's scum. His actions have been consistent in doing just about everything possible to ensure that the town

doesn't

get any information from his lynch.

[The Fonz]

He is aimless, unlike in Maf 57. In that he had a goal, in this he simply looks like chicken with it's head cut off.

He got lynched day two there, it's not that surprising he's playing differently here.

[The Fonz]

A read of 57 confirms what Panzer is saying:

[quote="9NV]You know what? Fuck it! Unvote: ShadowLurker Vote: ~N9V~ I'm not gonna get any answers, and I have no need for this bullshit![/quote]

Seem familiar?

[The Fonz]

Oh, hang on, wait a second! It was Panzer who said he was playing differently in the first place. When I suggest a reason for playing differently, Panzer says no, he's consistent!

[The Fonz]

We need a blahgo replacement in the worst way.

[The Fonz]

theopor_COD, I just glance over scotmany's early game posts, if nothing else (for example this one) and find it highly unlikely that he's scum with livingod.

.

Please, please explain

why

. That particular post doesn't appear to suggest a livingod-scot combo being unlikely to me.

[The Fonz]

I don't think a new wagon is necessarily a bad idea, but it would have to get started right now. I'm sticking by the N9V lynch- I can't see any way in which his behaviour helps the town, or for that matter, differs from how he acted as scum in M57.

[The Fonz]

Votecount please

Just like to say at this point, I

could

possibly support a Panzer lynch. I don't like his desperate attempts to discredit rand, that bit where he FOSed N9V then three posts later said 'Dammit, stop voting N9V!' the cop directing, and so on, does make him look like he's not on the town's side. I still strongly prefer an N9V lynch however.

[The Fonz]

Alright Amb, if you truly think I am blatantly scum, then get people to lynch me. Why are you having so much trouble lynching me? Cause maybe everything you are saying is wrong. So if you ever convince people to lynch me, then do it. Lynch the hell out of me. At least the next day the town will get rid of you.

To be fair, the pair of you have been going at it like Stags since forever, and neither one of you is particularly close to getting the other lynched.

[The Fonz]

My target was a innocent. Shall I reveal?

hell no. any protecting roles are already stretched between you and Theo. i dont suggest you claim the innocent unless you have to...


BM

Huh? More confirmed innocents = good. The doc can only protect one anyway. More innocents, the harder job the scum have second-guessing the doc.

[The Fonz]

The killing of DoS was an odd one aswell.

How so?

[The Fonz]

Well, I do find Scot's day one actions rather dodgy:

My vote for him has nothing to do with his vote on livingod. If you want any justification for my vote, its that I was suspicous at him ever sinced he made a vote for DoS for bandwagoning, when he did the same thing. Still, I consider it mostly an instinct vote.

Attacked someone attacking Livingod, but claimed it was nothing to do with them voting Livingod.

Can I have the reason for voting for livingod. I want to know why you people think he is scum.

If someone provides a well though out, decent reason for why livingod should be lynched, then I am listening.

Despite what KC might claim, I think this pair of posts hints, as Theo suggested, of trying to derail the livingod wagon, yet leaving options open for switching to a GF lynch if the momentum on him became unstoppable.

Then we have day two and on, and the Amb catfight. Now, I'm really not sure what to make of this. Overnight, I was ruminating on the possibility of both-scum- after all, their constant attacking of one another kept either from having to particularly contribute to discussion of anyone else, their arguments against one another weren't particularly good (hence, not likely to

actually

get the other lynched), and if ever one did get lynched, the other looks town as a result.

To be honest, I kinda had 'a plague on both your houses' in mind with regard to those two. I don't find Scot's arguments with regard to Amb any better or worse than Amb's arguments relating to Scot, and we know the latter to be town now.

I don't think a Scot lynch would be the worst move in the world, but I think I'd still rather see a Panzer or BattleMage lynch today.

[The Fonz]

OK, the case on Panzer, from the top:

Day one, puts FOS on the following-

Twito (twice), Theo, BM (twice) Scotmany, K-Scope,

Puts votes on Chibo, then Riverwind, then Twito.

That's six different people. Anyone but livingod, perhaps?

Riverwind, Scotmany is decidedly town. I wouldn't have jumped on the Livingod wagon either and I'm not jumping on the scope wagon because I don't see why.

I don't see the case on Scope or Livingod.

Defends Livingod.

Then later calls a truce with, I think, Twito, who he 'thinks' is scum, in order to push the lynch of Riverwind, who we now know is townie. The whole Twito truce thing I find disturbing, doesn't really state reasons for why he now finds Twito town.

Then goes after Lowell, then Amb, then back to Lowell. Then to IH, then back to Lowell.

Honestly BM is the hardest player to place in this game, except for maybe Twito. I have play 3 or 4 games with him and he plays terribly in everyone and he died in everyone and was town. No offense to BM, but I believe he is just a bad player. I wouldn't mind lynching him for reason of "boy who cryed wolf", but it could just be BM being plain bad at mafia.

This is a bit more that concerns me, his play with regard to BM is noteworthy. Day one, two FOS (one 'strong'), no votes, even though Panzer obviously doesn't midn throwing his vote around. Now this bit about how he thinks BM might just be a bad player (actually, of course, if you're hard to read, you're probably not that bad a player after all). It's kinda hard to put my finger on this- it's like he's projecting a negative attitude towards BM, hence distancing, but excusing it by BM's playstyle so he doesn't have to actually push for his lynch. THere's more of the same in the next few posts, actually, kinda AdHom attacks on BM as a mafia player.

He attacks Lowell using this argument:

OverTheUnder, He made 8 votes in 10 post. Gave little to no reasoning on 4 or 5 of them and then used OMGUS to vote Twito.

Which is rather hypocritical.

Goes to N9V, then tries to go back to Lowell, messes up the coding.

I agree, don't instruct the vig. It's not very town and not very sly.

Further hypocrisy, given that he spends an inordinate amount of time later trying to direct the cop.

Attacks K-Scope based on spurious 'no-lynch' reasoning, then unvotes him in the next post. Goes to Scot, then back to Scope, mainly on the basis of ties to Theo. Unvotes, votes Theo, though puts Major FOS on Scope and Scot. Can you say 'keeping your options open?' This appears to be a recurring theme.

Wahoo! Actually find someone he DOESN'T find scummy. (Jalyn). This might be worth noting.

Comes under attack for jumping around more than House Of Pain, his defence is:

Notice who I have jumped around on. All people that I feel are scum. Scope, scot, and you so I don't feel that jumping around between three people that I think is are scum is scummy.

Except that's he's also jumped around on Theo and Lowell in the past. He was also all over the place D1 (notably, except on LivinGod) so the claim that he's jumping around at this particular point for specific reasons seems hollow.

Starts consistently pushing Theo at this point. Has he somehow forgotten Scope and Scot? I thought he was jumping around between the two of them (plus Lowell) because they were exceptionally scummy?

Then publishes a list of who he finds town and scum. The 'scum' and 'scummish' categories between them have seven people in them.

The 'Town' list includes only IH and himself. He voted IH the previous day, and I can't find any post explaining where his suspicion there has gone.

Puts an FOS on everyone on the Rand Wagon, shows particular suspicion of Amb and Theo.

Then an FOS on N9V and Theo, and, oh look, a minor FOS on Battle Mage.

Then three posts after the FOS on N9V, we have:

Damnit, stop voting N9V.

Theo and K-Scope, who Panzer seems to have rediscovered, are now the 'people we have to be worried about.'

Which brings us pretty close to the here and now. Strongly disbelieves Rand's claim (having FOSed EVERYONE on his wagon before he claimed).

Calls Amb and DoS scum in consecutive posts.

then vote me Amb scum.

DoS, what have you contributed to this game? You are posting because you simply are getting heat. If no one mentioned your name we'd never here from you. You only post to lynch townies and defend you and your scum group.

Then puts an FOS on IH for suggesting Panzer himself is a better lynch than N9V. The same IH, remember, who he'd earlier said he found the towniest player in the game.

He directs the cop, first to investigate him, then Battle Mage. Votes Scot, then Amb, then KC.

Finally, we have this:

He is aimless, unlike in Maf 57. In that he had a goal, in this he simply looks like chicken with it's head cut off.

I've played 4 games with him. He is consistent.

Contradicts himself.

I think those he's never voted or FOSed comes to me, TCS, and Rand. Though he did say he didn't buy Rand's cop claim 'for a second.' He's gone aggressively after every single dead player,

except the one who actually turned out to be scum.

@BM: I'm afraid going over Panzer has taken me forever. I'll have to analyse you later. Suffice to say, it'll be shorter than this. I do suspect you both for things you've done yourself and possible Panzer ties.

[The Fonz]

Did you not? I guess I'm sorry if that's true, I just did a re-read of you specifically, and posts like this:

I don't see the case on Scope or Livingod.

Didn't look like they came from after Livingod died. Why would you say you 'don't' see the case on someone dead, rather than that you 'didn't?' Weird.

[The Fonz]

Gonna answer a couple of the points from the earlier post now, I think.

very difference. Directing the cop is not anti town. Directing who dies is.

Not really. Directing the cop helps the scum with their NKs.

On the BM bit, BM is a terrible player. Ask anyone in scumchat. He is hard to read cause acts super scummy all the time so I tend to leave BM until we absolutely need to lynch him.

Oh, I know what kind of player BM is. But if you want to leave him until absolutely necessary, why did you keep banging on about how bad he is, and why did you FOS him on three separate occasions? You appeared to be attacking him, without really making much reference to the thigns he was actually doing in this game. And not voting him. Hence, I get the impression you two might be scumbuddies. Your attacks on him seem somehow less... sincere than those on others.

On the N9V bit, I said he is consistently the way I described. That means he never changes his attitude. And I was right about N9V BTW.

Oh, I know what he's like. But your defence of him seemed to be based around how he was

not

acting like that in this particular game. Which wasn't true. Plus, y'know, the whole FOS: N9V to 'Everyone stop voting N9V!' in the span of three posts.

Because of the K-Scope bit.

I was adding to my "Twito is leading the town like sheep" kick that I was on at the time. And speaking of that. Why not a Twito lynch?

That truce worn off now, then? My personal answer to that would be 'because he's not you, and he's not Battle Mage either.'

[The Fonz]

Whilst I'm at-it, my readthru of Battle Mage:

[quote="Battle Mage"]i am aware and suspicious of the wagon that seems to have built on top of me, after my vote on DOS. On the other hand, the same seems to be the case with the wagon on Livingod, so im not really sure which side is right. For the moment i will stay where i am, but dont think your behaviour has escaped my attention. [/quote]

I don't quite understand this, but it sounds like a subtle defence of livingodfather.

[quote="Battle Mage"]well i think im gonna stick with my current vote. Although Livingod HAS been acting suspicious, and has been slandering me publically in other games, i'm not going to drop to his level. I still maintain that the only way such a wagon could have developed unopposed, is with Mafia consent. Im not sure just how many wagonners are Mafia, but i am absolutely positive that there is at least 2 hiding out in there![/quote]

Finds livingodfather suspicious, doesn't vote for him. Rather like Panzer has done with BM, in fact.

[quote="Battle Mage"]Well i gotta agree that Livingod has been acting a bit scummy in this game, but im equally wary of the fact that such a large majority is already wagonning him. Really, there is such little challenge there, im wondering-if he is Mafia-WTF are the rest of em!?

Unvote

[/quote]

Bet-hedging. 'I find LGF a bit scummy, but i don't like the wagon.'

[quote="Battle Mage"][quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"][quote]Makes me suspect that Livingod's waggon is in fact scum-filled.[/quote]pfff... you're just trying to save him by saying this, hoping people will hop off.

Vote stays. We should hammer him.[/quote]

what would i have to gain by that?
Im supposed to be trying to find out the Mafia here, and if ur gonna convince me to vote Livingod, ur gonna have to work alot harder.
After all-just because hes getting wagonned, doesnt mean he is Mafia.


[/quote]

Think K-Scope has a point here... more defence of LGF from BM.

FOS on Panzer, saying

[quote="Battle Mage"]actually Lowell has a good case on Panzer. When you look at his posts in isolation, he is looking pretty scummy.
[/quote]

But hmmm, no vote, how utterly unsurprising. THen the big 'BM is terrible!' 'No really, Im quite good at this lol,' argument, when they appear to be at loggerheads without actually pointing out anything actually scummy in this game by the other. THen eventually, BM moves away again.

Attacks OTU in defence of N9V. Says he finds

Panzer

and N9V town.

Pushes K-Scope for a while, then to Lowell.

Starts off on K-Scope day three. Stays there a good while. Goes to Rand, then back to K-Scope. Then we get to the part, with his interactions with N9V, that I covered here.

Basically, his continued insistence that he felt N9V was town as he pushed him to lynch. Methinks the GentleMage doth protest too much.

That brings us pretty much up to date, I think.

[The Fonz]

Right, I think that last little exchange was a case in point. They distance, without making a case against one another.

Vote: Panzer
FOS: BM

[The Fonz]

Maybe, but a self voter should always be lynched.

QFT.

[The Fonz]

Maybe, but a self voter should always be lynched.

I'd probably want too see a vountcount before I vote Panzer.

I'd probably want to see that readthrough you promised, too.

[The Fonz]

Thirteen alive, four scum, if Panzer were right. One lynch and one nightkill would take us to 11/4. Mislynch and nightkill then would put us at 9/4, and at LyLo.

All of this is irrelevant, however, as Panzer is full of crap.

[The Fonz]

Amb/KScope/Rand/Theo. Four. I know logic's not your strong suit, but

counting?

[The Fonz]

Amb, Kscope, Rand, and Theo

are all still alive all after having significant doubt placed on them during the day.

The second list, the one with Kelly, I thought he was implying Scope and Amb were Town who'd been conned into going along. I suppose your reading could work (though that'd be even more ridiculous).

[The Fonz]

I'll have to add my voice to those getting increasingly frustrated with YB. I mean, he replaced in overnight, it's generally good manners when doing so to be at the least well-advanced with your readthru before day starts. He's been posting in other games as well, so he's clearly not had access problems or excessive workload issues or anything like that.

[The Fonz]

Can you just post some general thoughts? We don't necessarily need a full PBP. But right now, it looks like you're trying to avoid having to contribute at all.

[The Fonz]

Panzer
Battle Mage
Not really anyone close to those two right now.

[The Fonz]

I would vote Yogurt here, since I think it's long overdue he actually gave us some arguments to work with. However, with Panzer being the other wagon, and my being pretty darn convinced of the scumminess of Panzer and BM, it would be an empty threat, and likely seen as such. Still,

FOS: Yogurt

. You said you were doing a readthrough and an analysis of one aspect of the game, then you pop up and say you're now re-reading another aspect. Give us what you've got on the bits you have analysed, NOW, and then you can add to it later.

Frankly, YB, having seen how active you're being in other games, I think it's a huge slap in the face to all of those playing in this one not to give it the same consideration. If you're in too many games to keep up, ask for replacement in a couple. It's not fair, and frankly rude.

[The Fonz]

You see 'YogurtBandit' listed as the most recent poster in this section quite frequently, then every time you click the link you find the post was in mafia 64.

[The Fonz]

Vote: IH

TCS isn't lying. I targetted Amb last night. My role is Night Watchman. I pick another player, and I get to see who targetted them that night. I think you can ascertain my result from the vote.

Previous results:

N1 yb targetted Kelly
N2 Al targetted
N3 I targetted blahgo
N4 I targetted Rand, got Amb

[The Fonz]

EBWODP: N2, Al targetted KC again.

[The Fonz]

Because, as I said at the time, I couldn't see OverTheUnder hammering the GF there without offering the opportunity to claim if he were scum, so I thought he was very likely town, and I subscribe to the theory that scum will often try to NK inactive/lurky townies, so as not to give any leads. Hence, blahgo.

[The Fonz]

Fonz/TCS we've had 5 nights by my reckoning it's now day 6.

Yes? We both reported five nights worth of results.

[The Fonz]

My counting is bad but not that bad . . .

Vote: IH

TCS isn't lying. I targetted Amb last night. My role is Night Watchman. I pick another player, and I get to see who targetted them that night. I think you can ascertain my result from the vote.

Previous results:

N1 yb targetted Kelly
N2 Al targetted
N3 I targetted blahgo
N4 I targetted Rand, got Amb

N1 - Sv killed
N2 - Lowell killed
N3 - Riverwind killed
N4 - DOS killed
N5 - Amb killed

You should have 5 results not four.

I have five results. Kelly twice, blahgo, Rand, Amb.

The reason I watched Amb was simple enough. Rand was likely to be (and presumably was) doc-protected: Theo had claimed townie. Amb had an innocent on him, but could still be a powerrole- he seemed the likely target (I, of course, knew him to be even more likely to be a powerrole, since he'd targetted Rand the night before, and Rand hadn't died).

[The Fonz]

Yeah, but Rand wasn't killed the night before because DoS was targeted. The scum doesn't have your info anyway. They would have no way of knowing that you're a power role.

Why does whether the scum know I'm a power role matter? The scum presumably guessed (correctly) that he would be doc-protected.

By the way--why would you be called the "Night Watchman" instead of just "Watcher"? I don't have an unusual role name.

Watcher = weak tracker who finds out whether the target performed a night action, but not upon whom it was performed.

Night Watchman= my role.

[The Fonz]

I think a watcher is implausible from a game-balance standpoint. That's 3 investigative roles.

Two of which only find scum if the one correct player is targetted (the killer for the tracker; the killee for the Watchman), and one of whom had two mafia roles dedicated to screwing up his results.

[The Fonz]

I also have been a watcher of the type I described in another game. I referred to this role as night watchman, surprisingly enough, because that's what my role pm said.

[The Fonz]

Dear God BM, if you think Rand might be naive (I don't particularly- that would render the framer pointless, unless there's another cop) and I might have a useful result, why are you voting me when my result is testable?

Oh, and TCS cannot be scum if I am not.

[The Fonz]

Well, this may be obvious (but apparently maybe not), but Fonz' ability, if legit, is so useful to us that I don't think we can consider lynching him today.

He can single-handedly get both Rand and TCS into tomorrow by threatening to randomly watch one of them. And if Fonz is scum we could get a hint at this since his own survival into tomorrow would be rather fishy.

That's exactly what I'll do, Kelly. I'll flip a coin between Rand and TCS, and watch one or other. That assumes I survive today, of course.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, I think five's likely. Though the scum had some notable power too. It's not the mod's fault the GF got himself lynched D1 and Yogurt read 'mafia framer' as 'jester.'

[The Fonz]

The only way that tracking me results in a confirmation, TCS, is if Rand dies and you track me to yourself. If you track me to dead Rand that doesn't prove anything, if I die it doesn't matter, and if you die you can't share your result. Whereas if we're assuming there are at most two scum left, and one is IH (and in the theoretical case where it isn't, it HAS to be me) tracking one of the others to no action confirms them.

[The Fonz]

I've prodded IH. I'm going to rely on you guys to tell me when other people need prodding.

Rand and Panzer haven't posted in a while.

[The Fonz]

Whereas if we're assuming there are at most two scum left, and one is IH (and in the theoretical case where it isn't, it HAS to be me) tracking one of the others to no action confirms them.

D'oh. I've just realised, of course, that we can't assume for a second there are only two scum left, in fact it's unlikely. Bah. Just try to nab someone in the act.

[The Fonz]

That's a lynch.

[The Fonz]

Battle Mage = Stoofer alt?

I am very disappointed in you Stoofer.

That would be, like, the biggest real life bus I'd ever seen.

[The Fonz]

Well, no __________ sherlock.

[The Fonz]

I hope to god TCS didn't track Fonz.

What does it matter? Who do you

think

performed the night kill?

[The Fonz]

I find it amusing that Battle Mage is defending my decision to modkill Panzerjagger while he is attacking it. If I hadn't modkilled Panzerjagger, Battle Mage would have won and Panzerjagger would have lost.

Anyway, this game proves the accuracy of a point I made some time ago: if Battle Mage has not been lynched by day 3, he is Scum.

The mod giveth, and the mod taketh away. Had you not modkilled Twito, we wouldn't have gotten close.