NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Shanba]

Ohey the game has started.

I dont recall feeling this much like a newbie in a very long time.

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Shanba]

I'm not especially enamoured of any of these wagons, but I'm least thrilled about the mafiassk one, I think, and I think the smelliest thing so far is seol's vote on it, so

unvote

, VOTE: Seol.

I've never been much of a fan of wagons based on disagreements in theory about how the game should be played, but I semi-expect that kind of thing to some extent from PJ, whereas I don't know as much about how Seol plays so his is a little scummier I think. Also has the bonus of already being a wagon.

[Shanba]

When did Shanba sign up for this?

spookily

like a ghost

[Shanba]

When did Shanba sign up for this?

spookily

like a ghost

Point of order: "spookily" is a how, not a when.

I demand explanation.

That's what makes it so spooky

[Shanba]

Apologies if I mischaracterised your vote PJ, it simply appeared that way from your initial post. The more nuanced case you have is more interesting, but I still am not really seeing it - I disagree with the assertion

Where I would expect MafiaSSK to simply agree that Tigris not joining a page-two bandwagon is natural or to simply respond with a continuation in a lighthearted vein, he instead takes a rather indefensible theory position. I think this reflects a scum mindset ("shoot, now I have to make this sound good") over a Town mindset ("eh, I was mostly joking and voting you for pressure").

Although, come to think of it, it's not entirely clear what MafiaSSK was even talking about with those two quotes that you mentioned, since they dont seem to bear any logical train of thought

Tigris: Vote for third vote MafiaSSK: vote you for not being on glork Tigris: But I dont like bandwagoning and I think we can get more info elsewhere MafiaSSK: bandwagons give info

It doesn't make a ton of sense that he would think that Tigris should be wagoning for information because Tigris already said she disagreed with him so that can't be the reason for the vote.

Aha! I think I have it. The only way that makes sense is if you don't read it as an explanation for the vote, but as an answer to the question why should I bandwagon. That bears up with his next post where he explains
[quote = "MafiaSSK"]Way to misrep in that second quote, not at all what I was talking about. People do break off from wagons all the time, but when they do, it's because someone has done a legitimately scummy thing that you know you'll be able to gain information from. When you do as Tigris did and just start a complete other RVS wagon, while it still has the potential to gain information, you should be going for the larger wagon because that already has the steam building up behind it.[/quote]
which is way more reasonable and sensible than "I'm voting you for not bandwagoning". I don't really like the Tigris wagon either, tbh, but it's just weak because it's the first serious vote anyone placed and that's pretty much always going to be a weak vote and I think on balance it does make her infinitesimally more likely to be scum, but seriously whatever.

On that note, why is Glork on the Tigris wagon, apparently seriously, and no one has called him out on it? Does he agree with MafiaSSK's reasoning?

I'm not enthused by Yos2's entry into the game. Both wagons are scummy, vote this other guy for defending them. Mmm. That's a little simplified of course (and I'm not sure he thinks Tigris is scummy, to be fair).

[Shanba]

It's incredibly severe in its wording for page 2 ("screams scum")

This is also odd. What does it being page 2 have to do with anything?

How often does something posted on Page 2 give that strong of scum feeling to you?

There's obviously rhetoric at play here.

But if we're being honest about things, I'd venture that a majority of players here are prone to (over)use of rhetoric.

I have NEVER overused rhetoric IN MY LIFE.

Why do you think Tigris is scum, glrok?

[Shanba]

All my friends on the Seolwagon are leaving me for the LMLwagon and I don't even really know what the LMLwagon is for!

Then again, I was never really sure why most of the people on the Seolwagon were on the Seolwagon anyway.

Since it was such a weak wagon and Seol didn't come in snarling and ripping people aside, he must be scum with a guilty conscience, right? (Note: not

entirely

serious here.)

[Shanba]

I know a couple players (e.g., Green Crayons, Shanba) have tried to separate his theory from his vote, but MafiaSSK has intertwined to the two to the point of having to argue that Tigris was "legitimately scummy."

Well, yeah, that's sorta how theory works - if you think something is theoretically scummy, then someone doing that is scummy right. And hence it's right to vote for them. If someone else is following that train of logic, even if you disagree a priori with their theorising, it doesn't make the logic itself scummy. That's kinda what I meant when I accused you of voting on a theory disagreement - you're not voting him for having bad ideas, but voting him for following through on bad ideas is effectively the same thing. Um, this is still doing your vote on him a disservice as you did make a better case on it later on.

I find myself disagreeing with much of what Yos says this game. This is a little upsetting.

I'm not comfortable with Glork's explanation of his vote on Tigris. I mean, it was roughly what I expected, but kinda... weak, I guess. I mean, not weak in the sense that the vote was weak - that's just a given that early in the game, but weak in the sense that the explanation doesn't seem to suggest that Glork is particularly motivated to hunt for scum, it just sort of is. I think the term I would use is unengaged.

Green Crayons vs LML is supremely uninteresting. I have learnt nothing about either's alignment by reading the two of them retreading the same points over and over with added vigour each time, but perhaps that's just because my eyes kept glazing over.

Why did you feel the need to make that safeguard? Are you or are you not voting Seol because you think he's scum?

Because the statement was mostly joking. I dont think its particularly scummy that he wasn't coming out all guns blazing.
I think he's more likely to be scum than anyone else. I do think the wagon on him was fairly weak (and that's potentially why it melted away so easily).

Wow. A post from CES that actually didn't contain a word about Seol. Interesting.

Is it?

[Shanba]

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

What sort of advantage do you think scum get off the early wagons? Both in general, and in particular in this game?

[Shanba]

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

What sort of advantage do you think scum get off the early wagons? Both in general, and in particular in this game?

From my experience, any time a mafia member can take heat and push it on someone else, they will do so. Sometimes, people throw shit against the wall just to see what sticks. Do you believe, Shanba, for any reason, any player should have been on three major wagons already? It's either sheeping or hiding, and either way, it's not pro-town.

I mean,

I

wouldn't be, but I'm not sure it's 100% a given that no one would. I tend to feel that it doesn't really count as hiding when you do something that people tend to think is scummy generally, like lurking, cause you know that if you lurk you're eventually going to get flak for it so it has to be a worse strategy as scum than actually contributing. Similarly, blatant and forthright wagoning... idk.

But anyway, you may have a point. Casting my mind back to space monkeys mafia 1 which I guess could be considered a bit of an experiment into how scum behave on early days, there was a ton of silly wagoning.

[Shanba]

Generally, I look at D1 voting two different ways, I look for opportunistic scum who takes advantage of the early wagons (So far, the early wagons include Tigris, MafiaSSK, Seol, Myself and, most recently, Zorblag (Far/Nat)).

What sort of advantage do you think scum get off the early wagons? Both in general, and in particular in this game?

From my experience, any time a mafia member can take heat and push it on someone else, they will do so. Sometimes, people throw shit against the wall just to see what sticks. Do you believe, Shanba, for any reason, any player should have been on three major wagons already? It's either sheeping or hiding, and either way, it's not pro-town.

What about FoSsing on a major wagon. Does that not also cover these points?

[Shanba]

Bookitty entering a game as a replacement really does give the game some of that oldies feel.

As far as the Seol vote goes, I didn't notice him the last time I looked through the thread because he hadn't done anything. That's due to lack of attention on my part. If it weren't for the replacement I'd agree that it's a more and more reasonable place to put a vote, but right now I'm tentatively chalking it up to an unimpressive start due to lack of interest in the game.

If the logic is that he's looking scummier because he's npt participating this makes sense, but I think he looked pretty scummy at a time when he

was

engaged in the game.

[Shanba]

I do.

I've seen no real reason to think PJ is scum.

[Shanba]

Bookitty's wall is the first post in the slot all game that's given me any better feelings than that creepy one where the hairs on your arms and the back of your neck stand on end.

@DrippingGoofball, I've had issues with Untrod Tripod's play, but that post is absolutely in line with what he's been saying in the game and is coming at an unsurprising time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

You know DGB like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?

I've been throwing shit at the wall? Everyone is complaining that I have too many town reads, LOL.

"Caught for the wrong reasons" strikes again.

I'm going to be charitable and assume there's something here I misunderstood. Caught for the wrong reasons?

[Shanba]

Also, a question to whoever: have any of the major wagons in this game felt like they experienced more or less resistance than they should have at the time, given the strength of the case and the strength of the cases on competing wagons? I have my thoughts, will be glad to share but don't want to taint the pool before anyone else has a chance to think about/answer this.

Considering how many people have expressed suspicion of him, and how strong the case against him is, it's been remarkably difficult to keep any momentum going on the LML wagon.

Looking back on the thread, it's also a little surprising by how strongly people were defending mafiaSSK, relative to the quality of his posting.

I don't like this post. The LML wagon hasn't had momentum because its bad, not because of some sinister scum plot, sorry. (There are, presumably, a lot of town left in a game like this. If a wagon isn't getting off the ground, then you're not just failing to convince scum, you're also failing to convince the townies. That's basically a truism. This kind of "oh x is hard to lynch" argument only makes sense to me in the context of a town that is flooded with aligned scum - a 3/7 or 2/5 type scenario.

As for the rest of the case, I simply don't agree with you that LML's scumhunting has been off or lacking. On the lacking part, there are many people with less relevant content than him in the game, and on the off part, well, I just don't see it.)

Why does mafiassk have to have been posting well in order to be defended? The wagon on him was crappy, so the wagon was called out. Heck, I don't even have any particularly strong read on him beyond that I didn't like the wagon on him. But that should be and indeed is enough to defend someone.

Bookitty's lynch me thing doesn't really sway me either way. I'm fairly certain I've said similar things as scum before. Also, VT claim. So what. It's a better lynch than PJ and a better lynch than LML. Seol's were really quite scummy.

((As a sidenote, mafia is a hard game and I don't think I would ever assign a >50% chance of being scum to anyone, like, ever. Beyond cop investigations or role information or whatnot.))

LML: Who was lurker hunting?

Is mathcam the mafiassk slot? Either way, his recent posting has seriously struck me the wrong way. He's my number 2.

[Shanba]

Also, a question to whoever: have any of the major wagons in this game felt like they experienced more or less resistance than they should have at the time, given the strength of the case and the strength of the cases on competing wagons? I have my thoughts, will be glad to share but don't want to taint the pool before anyone else has a chance to think about/answer this.

Considering how many people have expressed suspicion of him, and how strong the case against him is, it's been remarkably difficult to keep any momentum going on the LML wagon.

Looking back on the thread, it's also a little surprising by how strongly people were defending mafiaSSK, relative to the quality of his posting.

I don't like this post. The LML wagon hasn't had momentum because its bad, not because of some sinister scum plot, sorry. (There are, presumably, a lot of town left in a game like this. If a wagon isn't getting off the ground, then you're not just failing to convince scum, you're also failing to convince the townies. That's basically a truism.

I'm not sure what part of my post you're disagreeing with. A huge number of people have expressed suspicion on LML so far this game, and yet it's been remarkably hard to keep a wagon going on him despite that.

People who have expressed suspicion of LML:

VitR
Albert
Green Crayons
Dripping Goofball (never really expressed, but kept her vote on the LML wagon for a long time)
Untrod Tripod
Save the Dragons
Yosarian2
Sotty7
MBL (kind of)
PJ
BooKitty

Granted, it looks like both Albert and DGB have changed their minds since then, but that's a hell of a lot of suspicion. Nearly half the people in the game have actively expressed suspicion on him by this point.

This kind of "oh x is hard to lynch" argument only makes sense to me in the context of a town that is flooded with aligned scum - a 3/7 or 2/5 type scenario.

Eh. The thing is, if your buddy is being attacked, you're likely to express suspicion of him, maybe vote him for a bit, and then get off of him. Distancing without actually increasing odds of being lynched. Anyway, with 4 or 5 scum in a 22 person game, that's more then enough to subtly tilt the wagon towards town people.

After all, statistically speaking, scum are lynched significantly less often then random on day 1. There's a reason for that.

Well, as for which parts I disagree with, uh, I kinda wrote that in my post, so yeah.

I still largely disagree with the LML wagon, mind. And as for the latter, stats? Or is that just a random assertion?

(My own rather cynical viewpoint and part of the reason I stopped actively playing is actually that scumhunting in forum games is largely random anyway).

This question feels so manipulative. mathcam made it decently clear what he had in mind (Yos's earlier case against me). It feels like pj is using the pretense of trying to get insight into mathcam's thought processes to create content that pushes the game in a pro-scum direction.

Don't really agree with this, don't really like the PJ wagon as a whole.

Lots of people are anti-Bookitty, and I don't think the wagon is amazing, but there are no real consensus alternatives. She still would be my primary pick, note.

[Shanba]

Actually, contrary to my previous post its now LML 6 Bookitty 8. I'm sure she was closer not so long ago. If Bookitty ever turns up scum at some point, the people who unvoted and made a no lynch incredibly likely deserve to die.

[Shanba]

I am sad

Bookitty was scum after all

All you people saying she was guaranteed town or w/e can shove that in your pipe

well played scums boo town

[Shanba]

I hate to disappoint LML but I forgot I had a power role... to the extent that I didnt sent a night action in night 1

I'm just a lurky player, particularly on day 1s.