NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER
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Muffin Mafia Scum
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In post 228, goodmorning wrote:In post 223, Aneninen wrote:Unfortunately, I have no real reads yet. Mostly because of Csareo, who has been drawing away the focus of the game.
You don't think the way people focus on him and what they say is indicative?
@Muffin: It's not explicitly non-Normal.
Do you want to start making relevant posts anytime soon?
I'm sorry, did you miss the part where I was on Vacation with Limited Access for the last week? Did you miss the part where I'm going to catch up on 10 pages on the plane? How about you cut me some slack, OK Chief?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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I think I"m voting Csareo's slot. UNVOTE:
Well when the thread was locked I was about to say that Csareo was town, but that I think he needs vigged to keep the noise:signal ratio down because holy shit. We'll see who the replacement becomes but I might still be in favour of that slot being vigged for info re: TSO's alignment..
Outing the existence of neighbourhoods is a pro-town move IMO.
Town reads:
Thor
Tiershift
I don't really have any scum reads yet due to lots of noise in this thread. The interaction between Cho and TSO bears further scrutiny.
VOTE: choOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Whatever I'm keeping the vote on Cho currently.
In post 278, T S O wrote:Why are you voting me?
In post 279, Cho wrote:Because TierShift wants to. Because I want to. I thought I made that clear.
In post 280, T S O wrote:So, you're voting me because you like voting me and you like mimicking TierShift?
In post 281, T S O wrote:If you give me stupid answers, you'll get a stupid question back.
I do not accept #279 as an explanation. Why are you voting me?
In post 282, Cho wrote:Because TierShift wants to. Because I want to. I thought I made that clear.
In post 285, Cho wrote:What the f***!?
In post 286, Cho wrote:Reasoning, please.
Cho, why do you expect reasoning from TSO despite being unwilling to provide your own? We both know "sheeping tiershift" isn't a real reason.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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I think Csareo's slot is town. I think Csareo the player needed to get vigged because Csareo the player was lynchbait and needs to go play a bunch of games in the Newbie Queue to figure out how to things work. In absence of some vigilante having a better target, I think Csareo would have been an excellent shot. If he gets replaced by some other VI like ZZZX then I might still think that.In post 312, T S O wrote:In post 303, Muffin wrote:I think I"m voting Csareo's slot. UNVOTE: We'll see who the replacement becomes but I might still be in favour of that slot being vigged for info re: TSO's alignment..
It seems off to me that you want the slot vigged to death but you're unvoting it at the same time. Do you not think it's worthy of a lynch, but worthy of a vig?
I'm not saying that D1 of a Large I'm calling your alignment based on what he would flip. I still think he's town but if I was wrong I might look at your early interactions with him as experienced scum crushing a weaker scumbuddy before he can give the rest of the team away, Fate-style.Also, what assumptions can you make about me from a town/scumflip or that slot?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Did I discard it? I'm pretty sure I said I thought it was Boonskies that outed it originally. Either way, it's not like scum have never made pro-town moves like outing a private QT in order to appear pro-town before. It's a pro-town move to do that but don't expect me to just give you a pass when I see something worthy of further scrutiny.In post 316, Cho wrote:And I'm not sure how to take you discarding the neighborhood-outing towntell entirely once called out on it. Is it scum trying to maintain consistency and avoid potentially being called out for flipflopping? Not sure.
So you're just trolling then? How about you don't. This thread is long enough already.In post 320, Cho wrote:Of course I'm sheeping TierShift. What are you talking about?
285 and 286. It's kind of ridiculous to think that was seriously me asking for a reason. After that exchange, there were so many excuses to vote me.
T S O wrote:Oooh, I'm the experienced scum in this scenario. That made me feel irrationally proud of myself.
Therefore I clearly cannot choose the wine in front ofT S O wrote:But I don't actually bus as scum in general - I've done it once so far, excluding deadline busses, as far as I remember. It's kinda a point of pride for me.me!One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 330, T S O wrote:Well, it's great that you want to vote me even more now. Maybe you're actually going to- wait, you're already voting me.
The whole point of my answer, though, is that I can actually back up my meta of voteparking - not with examples, but with actual quotes of me saying I votepark. It's a recurrent habit, but it -is- my playstyle.
Knowing your own meta makes that meta useless. That is not a valid defence.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 346, Garmr wrote:I'm going to be honest I'm lost now and don't know what to think.
UNVOTE: toby
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In post 366, PeregrineV wrote:I'll probably be catching up today. Anything I should look for?
In post 374, PeregrineV wrote:In post 370, Thor665 wrote:I don't think you get to naked vote at this stage of the game - reads and thoughts please.
It's not naked, it's more an acceptance that Izraeil probably knows better than I at this point, and last time I thought they were scum, ignored them, and we lost.
Of course, an actual read will give me a better idea. Is there a reason you think he is particularly town?
Holy shit this is scumposting.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: PerVOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 494, PeregrineV wrote:In post 485, Muffin wrote:PerV, why are you voting Scripten but not pursuing him at all? You're "scumhunting" elsewhere instead of where your vote (and ostensibly your top scumread) is. Why is that?
It was a sheeping of Izreal, who I determined was town from a single/couple of posts based on a recently completed newbie game and I decided to place a vote while I caught up.
So you still think Scripten is scum? yes/noOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 500, PeregrineV wrote:In post 499, TobyLoby wrote:Why yes?
I'm actually working on my reads right now, but let's add in all the attention the 2 votes he has has garnered. It earned him a Thor townread, a Muffin inquisition of my vote, an Egg agreement with Izreal of the Scripten vote, and a TobyLoby questioning of the vote. Considering no one but Thor ever squeaked about Scripten prior to his 2 votes, I find all the sudden attention to be interest arousing.
This is specious logic and you know it.
I'm questioning your vote because it was a shitty vote, and the implication that I'm scum defending my buddy Scripten is just a transparent attempt to fling shit at the wall and see what sticks.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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The simple facts are:- by your own statement you couldn't have had a scumread on scripten when you voted because you hadn't read the game and you parked your vote there while you caught up
Then, after catching up you:
- didn't try to convince anyone else to join you on that wagon
- didn't show any reasoning as to why Scripten is scum
- didn't post any analysis of Scripten's posts to highlight scum motivation for his posts
Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:
- tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
- posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote
I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.
pedit I don't have a read on aninen i will iso them and get back to youOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 521, Muffin wrote:The simple facts are:- by your own statement you couldn't have had a scumread on scripten when you voted because you hadn't read the game and you parked your vote there while you caught up
Then, after catching up you:
- didn't try to convince anyone else to join you on that wagon
- didn't show any reasoning as to why Scripten is scum
- didn't post any analysis of Scripten's posts to highlight scum motivation for his posts
Then, when called on your shitty vote by me you:
- tried to paint my attack on your shitty vote as a chainsaw defense of scripten
- posted a big giant reads list stretching something scripten wrote to fit your pre-existing vote
I'm not sure how any of those things come from a town frame of mind.
All this @peregrineOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 516, T S O wrote:What's your read on Aneninen?
Having done a brief read-through of Aneninen's iso I didn't really get any pings. I find him pretty annoying with the stupid pigeon shit, always trying to be funny and ingratiating, but then wondering why people think he's a VI and worrying about getting WOTC'd later. Judging by his join date, it's an attempt to fit in (if he's not an alt) and the pigeon crap points to him being a high-schooler who thinks it's funny.
As for his alignment in this game? I don't think I could call him scum (though I'd like to), but he's not really townie either. I have trouble reading newbies, because a lot of his content is pretty hollow and seems like it won't go anywhere, but then I remember that I'm not super pro at this game either, and when I was a newbie I had no fucking idea what I was doing.
Still, I'd gladly YOLO-hammer him though, if he was at L-1.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 534, T S O wrote:If you don't like Aneninen, try using your vote. I hear all the cool kids are doing it these days.
Well I would, but my vote's on my top scumread atm.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Specious logic again.In post 544, PeregrineV wrote:A vote on him for "town cred" can only be town cred if Scripten is scum.
Because you're voting him?Why would I?
No, that's not how it works. The onus is on you to explain why someone is scum. I myself have him pretty null, but you voted for no reason and then stretched the facts to justify your vote instead of just finding someone scummier to vote. That's not a natural progression that I'd expect from a town player.At this point I'm arguing I don't have a town read on him, he gave me early scumvibes, and I find the interest in him interesting in and of itself. You tell me why he's town and maybe we'll debate the finer points.
If you aren't scumreading him why are you still parking your vote there? Why not vote one of the other players you're attacking?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Because if you actually go into depth, any rational player would realize that your argument falls on its ass if your definition of "town cred" is different from his. I'm done debating semantics with you on this point. Your logic is faulty and you know it.
Yes, you need a safe place to park it so you can pretend to be scumhunting. I understand.My vote is staying there because why not?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 567, Thor665 wrote:
I am voting him.
You should do it too and be more useful.
My bad I thought you were still voting TSO.
I voted PerV like 8 pages ago.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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i mean it's pretty obvious that if scripten meant "trying to look town by doing lazy scumhunting" rather than "he's bussing me and we're scumbros" then everything is copacetic
i disagree with that description of Iz's post; but that doesn't mean i need to scumread scripten for it. the "leading" cho wagon wasn't much of a wagon at all so attacking someone for being like the 4th person onto a wagon in a 21p large is pretty meh.
the problem with the meta on this site is that a lot of people are too fucking rigid, god damn open your minds, not all scum or town play will fit into your pre-existing mental schemaOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 587, Scripten wrote:So ready to vote PereV
Just Dew It®One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 594, PeregrineV wrote:In post 582, Muffin wrote:scripten's a big boy, he doesn't need me to defend him despite your burning desire to argue with me about scripten's motives
ask him yourself, perv
Yet you are defending him.
The question is out there from both me and Axle. We'll see what he says.
i know, i need to stop arguing with my scumreadsOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 702, Izariael wrote:Does anyone object to doing this?
Given they've already been exposed, I definitely agree that the pro town move is to lat out who is in which neighborhood.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 896, goodmorning wrote:like, i'm not exactly convinced pere's not scum but i find you quite a lot more so
Hi
I would like you to explain this vote. "Gut" or "I don't know" is not a sufficient explanation for a 35+ page read.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 924, Aneninen wrote:Walls with zillions of post-links haven't been popular either. And I hate long-long-long quote-walls. Besides, there are players here who haven't been doing anything useful and you call a readlist which was a result of ISO-ing everyone? Hmmm...
I'm telling for the last time: ask a question (eg. why do you have a xxx-read on yyy?) and I'll answer. If not, I'll finish this conversation because we're getting nowhere.
My advice would be to just make a wall of quotes and then put them in spoiler tags. You can PM me if you need help with it.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 927, goodmorning wrote:On Thor is mostly a tone-based read as I think I've made clear.
Is that the best you can come up with?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 945, goodmorning wrote:Were you expecting Thor to fuck up bad?
I was expecting something better than "tone" which is basically just a gut read. If you can't come up with more than a "tone" read ( ) from 35 pages, then maybe there's a better place for your vote, hey?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 954, goodmorning wrote:And no, it's not a gut read. It's a(n admittedly limited) meta read.
Please link me to games where this meta of "tone difference" is displayed in town vs. scum.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 957, goodmorning wrote:You are totally welcome to read the post wherein I linked 2 games.
Hey, thanks for being caustic.
I skimmed your iso and only found #555 which links 4 games, none of which support your assertion that Thor is scum, because he was not a player in any of those.
I'm willing to work with you, but I need you to link me games that support your meta read on Thor. Otherwise your "read" isn't much of one.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.
Don't misconstrue things please.
Attacking a really weak case on someone does not equate to "hard defending" that player.
You can consider yourself an ally of convenience if you like.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1069, Egg wrote:In post 739, davesaz wrote:Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.
Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.
(*) Scum and other factions <if any>
^this kind of looks like being too careful not to slip knowledge of how many factions there are.
Even when looked at in context of two other players arguing back and forth about multiball?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Dear PereV,
It seems the entirety of your scumread on Thor revolves around setup speculation. I myself am undecided on him. Frankly I think too much of this game revolves around Thor. Can you link to posts of his, other than setup spec, that demonstrates scum mentality?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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What would give you that idea?In post 1608, AxleGreaser wrote:It seems to me you you ought have scum read on me, unless I mistake your post.
Not really.If so wanna talk about it?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:@Muffin. What was your problem with my TSO vote?
I didn't like the way you seemingly developed a scumread on TSO because he was aggro on you.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1589, Garmr wrote:In post 1585, AxleGreaser wrote:In post 1584, Garmr wrote:But I don't see tso as scum
So you can explain how it is plausible he has his read on Aneninen?
because I also have similar problem with your read on Aneninen, but find TSO scummier, so I started with him.
Bang this just hit me.
I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding. What I find wrong is how your attacking the Aneninen, wagon and trying to disassemble it with out once saying Aneninen, is town. Sure you said here are some of annienens town games but not even once in the slightest have you said Aneninen to say what you think his alignment is Hell. When you presented Aneninen, town game to me you didn't even say this is why Aneninen, is town/scum because of this game and that one match up(they don't). Your like here's some Aneninen games I can't be bothered pointing out the points to show why they can be referenced with this game.You been passively defending annienen as well.
I think you did this subconsciously as he is either your scum buddy or your trying to buddy him. Your also reluctant to share your reads other than tso and you been playing a mediator role the whole game when it doesn't involve a scum read like you want to get in on the action yet not get to heavily involved.
come on people read through his iso Aneninen is mentioned over 100 times but not his alinement.
UNVOTE: Aneninen
VOTE: Axlegreaser
Why does this make an axlegreaser vote more palatable to you than an aneninen vote? It seems to me this ought to reinforce your scum read on aneninen the scum bro, should it not?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1644, AxleGreaser wrote:Warning: Csareo vanished in a puff of mod logic we wont be talking about, so mainly ignore that it didn't happen
Why don't you think a player slot should be judged by all who played it?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1687, AxleGreaser wrote:Would you like to ask me about something else at this time?
My read on the situation is similar to his, unless something changes one of Him or Thor seems like likely lynch.
For some reason inexplicable to me other people don't have a problem with TSOs play enough to vote him yet.
I guess this one is me dodging at this time.
Simple question. Is PereV town or scum?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1710, PeregrineV wrote:Still can't see what everyone is so enamored of. I want his gift for all my scumgames.
Vote: Scripten
Why haven't you been able to articulate why Scripten is scum?
The only thing I can see is the "town cred" thing from like 65 pages ago. Which posts, specifically, demonstrate scum motivation from scripten?One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1917, Slandaar wrote:...
GM thinks rolefishing is scummy, now think about this response;
In post 1802, goodmorning wrote:It's terribly transparent,trying to lynch a PR.trying to rolefish.Your answer is too simple- it doesn't take consequences into account.
GM is scum. She is thinking on different levels when it suits her.
The End.
Can you explain this a little more please? The struck-through text confuses me.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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In post 1969, Aneninen wrote:
In post 1965, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1961, Aneninen wrote:
The 1917, vote for GoodMorning is terrible, as for its reasoning. Everyone: check that out, also the #s of the posts!!!
Whats terrible about it?
I've highlighted them, see below. (As far as I know he didn't have a game with Csareo before. TSO had. Why don't you scumread him too?)
Also, the quotes you'd made proved nothing.
In post 1917, Slandaar wrote:I think Thor and PV are both town.
Lets lynch someone else.
Vote: GoodMorning
GM is good as scum so she hasn't made any huge mistakes or slips and this makes it hard to make an argument against her but her tone doesn't feel right and she never seems to have much point to what she says.
But seriously;The way she acted during Csareo's time was incredibly scummy.She asked him multitudes of questions and argued lots of what he said becauseit was easy.It looks good when you argue with someone like Csareo because you will always win and thus come out looking good but at the same time she wasn't pushing the wagon or really doing anything with the questions she asked or points she disputed.You can see this later where she never again questions anyone to such an extent, take Thor she never questions him.
You need to explain why the parts you underlined are scummy, or you will never get anyone to join this wagon you want to start.
Also,
In post 1965, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1961, Aneninen wrote:
(By the way, did he want to derail the PeregrineV wagon in 1932? We should remember that later!)
Yep I want to derail PV wagon.
Derail? Isn't that word used for a scum-action? To derail a wagon of a scumbuddy?
Words have fluid meanings that differ from person to person. You will not ever catch scum in this manner outside of the newbie queue.
FWIW I find your case on Slandaar to be very lacking.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Muffin Mafia Scum
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In post 1976, Slandaar wrote:In post 1972, Muffin wrote:Can you explain this a little more please? The struck-through text confuses me.
The point I was making there is she was calling rolefishing scummy but saying scum wouldn't try to lynch claimed PR's because it's too obvious but rolefishing is also very obvious. So saying one is scummy and one isn't is terrible as they are essentially the same argument.
okOne's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Muffin Mafia Scum
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Muffin Mafia Scum
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So why aren't you voting Aneninen? I'd get on that wagon. I'm not comfortable calling goodmorning scum at this point, though.
I think your argument is logical but predicated on internal consistencies that may or may not exist. Townies do scummy/irrational shit all the time.One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.-
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Muffin Mafia Scum
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