Mafia 58: Ready Salted - Game over!

[Kelly Chen]

I greet you all.

Let us win this time. Mafia wins are inexcusable!

I will have a random vote for you shortly :wink:

[Kelly Chen]

vote: yellowbounder

, I am having trouble reading him.

[Kelly Chen]

I've played like 20 games, you can have a look at those already...

[Kelly Chen]

Guys I replaced "Wartys Neryon"

A vote for him is a vote for me, i.e. bad.

[Kelly Chen]

No Lynch is not never good. Its actually a very good play on day 1 when a deadline is looming and no particular player appears scummier than others. There is no point in risking outing town roles or lynching poorly in that situation. Of course it has to be a last ditch thing, not the first point of call.

If nobody looks scummier than anyone else then the town has done a lousy job, or the deadline is too soon.

You won't find many takers for the idea that a D1 no lynch is better than a random lynch. When deadline comes around the town should scramble to reach a decision. It forces people to take positions.

No lynch is good e.g. when there's just one scum group, it's lynch or lose, and there's an even number of players alive.

unvote yellowbounder

, I think he is awol.

[Kelly Chen]

Question for: theopor_COD

What did you find interesting about this game's start?

[Kelly Chen]

FOS: Amb

vote: Livingod

[Kelly Chen]

Don't ask, just find the scum! Is DoS the scum?

[Kelly Chen]

The backtracking charge does not stand up to any scrutiny. Look at DoS' posts for yourself.

[Kelly Chen]

I am inclined to agree with Twito, we are wagoning scum. I would guess that none of his scumpartners are voting him right now. They need to throw him under the bus right now so that they look better later. I hate to give advice to the scum but it's undeniable.

[Kelly Chen]

unvote vote Kelly

Oh crap!!

[Kelly Chen]

VOTE: DragonsofSummer

Because everything is based on a lot of speculation, I'll vote for DragonsofSummer because he suggested a nolynch.

What post led you to believe this?

Just a hunch but I think this guy might be scum too, delurking in order to save his scumbuddy (whose posts are the only ones he's read)

[Kelly Chen]

The way it works is somebody finds someone better to lynch.

Maybe e.g. you guys want to run up phita23 instead.

[Kelly Chen]

Listen to your heart

[Kelly Chen]

Not only did we get a GF, they killed someone I had no read on and who was late on the bandwagon. Lucky us.

Good night on the whole only one down, no serial.

First of all I'm amazed Livingod was a Godfather, complete shambles from his point of view, I'd also be inclined to think a few of his buddies gave him up and jumped on the lynch, just to make themselves look slightly more innocent. However I also think some of those not voting him look pretty sus aswell.

Having looked at the previous day's voting Rand Althor, Scotmany, Phita and Battle Mage worry me the most.

I find it rather suspicious that this is your first contribution, having stayed completely out of the spotlight while the LG wagon went down. You didn't even vote.

However, even if you're scum, I'm pretty sure you put some fellow scum on your list. And it's not a bad list.

I do not really think Battle Mage or Scotmany are scum. They both seem too obvious (if you interpret them as defending LG, which in Scotmany's case seems pretty iffy to me).

There's a lot of reason to think a number of people are town imho, so our position should be pretty good.

vote: phita23

for voting DoS for seemingly false reasons. Explain yourself pls.

Comment on Battle Mage:

Well i gotta agree that Livingod has been acting a bit scummy in this game, but im equally wary of the fact that such a large majority is already wagonning him. Really, there is such little challenge there, im wondering-if he is Mafia-WTF are the rest of em!?
Unvote

Here he's unvoting DoS, not LG. So not even obvious defense here. A little weird I suppose.

[Kelly Chen]

omg, setting up for future suspicion on people for voting someone you were also suspicious of.

unvote, vote: theopor_COD

Question for phita23 stands though.

[Kelly Chen]

It's true that Twito was late on LG, but reading his posts I am inclined to believe that Twito was just being a good townie. Notice that he didn't just hop onto LG, there was clear reason that made him confident about it.

There should be more votes on theopor_COD.

Let me do a post by post recap...

Jan 29:

Hello everyone.

Interesting start.

Feb 1:

Question for: theopor_COD

What did you find interesting about this game's start?

Just seems to have provoked plenty of reaction early. Looking at other games this one seems to be lively.

Note lack of content. Note several days' separation.

Feb 8:

Good night on the whole only one down, no serial.

First of all I'm amazed Livingod was a Godfather, complete shambles from his point of view, I'd also be inclined to think a few of his buddies gave him up and jumped on the lynch, just to make themselves look slightly more innocent. However I also think some of those not voting him look pretty sus aswell.

Having looked at the previous day's voting Rand Althor, Scotmany, Phita and Battle Mage worry me the most.

This post from Scot one reason why

Right now, the only vote that I am even considering is the one that my gut is telling me. Even though I know that you will all most likely attack me for this vote simply because I have a gut feeling, I feel it is the right thing to do.
Vote: Twito
I guess I just don't trust you.

However, if more information comes of on livingod being scum, then I am willing to switch.

Just seems like he knows Livingod is scum and votes Twito (due to his gut feeling) but also uses the old willing to switch line if it appears Living appears doomed. As such Vote Scotmany12

Note 1. noting town's good luck, 2. setup speculation (no SK), 3. wishy washy paragraph of suspicions before getting down to it (these are basic scumtells related to looking for stuff to post without actually helping the town or making commitments).

I admit I did #1 myself.

In my humble opinion this case against Scotmany sucks, although it doesn't necessarily mean theopor_COD is scummy. "I'm willing to switch" strikes me more as something that would be said by scum looking to move

to a townie

, not fellow scum. I'd expect scum looking to switch to scum to say "I do think LG is fairly scummy" not "I need to see the case," since this latter just invites more discussion on LG.

Also, there's nothing wrong with voting on gut; his Twito vote certainly wasn't out of nowhere (look at his earlier posts); and so it seems to me unnecessary to look at this Twito vote as a move to save LG or whatever might supposedly help scum.

Feb 8 (response to me saying he was suspicious for not posting day 1):

Apologies for not being much help for the first few days, one I can't get on every day, two the speed of the lynch was quicker than lightning, the guy didn't even have the chance to offer a claim.

making excuses

Feb 8:

Unvote, Vote Battle Mage

If he's not mafia then I think Cheesefan and Kaleidoscope most definately are.

WTF is this???? This is why I first voted theopor_COD, what is this stuff here --^^^ ??

He was also asked about this by Cheesefan, and he hasn't answered.

As before, I find the above scummy because Battle Mage was one of theopor_COD's suspects. And if Cheesefan and Kaleidoscope's pursuit seems scummy to theopor_COD, why in the hell would he want to go along with them?

My theory is that theopor_COD wanted to gently hop from Scotmany to (the more popular) Battle Mage and felt he needed to say something while doing so. What a sneaky guy eh!

Feb 8:

Well BM deffently deserves a fos:BM, theopor_COD can you give a reason why I worry you?

Just the vote for Riverwind on page five, sometime after the no lynch discussion had expired.

Mind I worry myself most of the time.

As for Scott I think your half hearted vote for Twito same page and then the I'll vote for Livingod if it becomes evident he's for the lynch quote.

Possible scumminess in seeming to undermine his own suggestion that RA was scummy (e.g. "You just worry me because of something that sounds lame now that I say it out loud, and hey I worry myself LOL").

Feb 10:

Um, I honestly had no idea whether or not Livingod was scum or not. I would really like to here why you think I knew that livingod was scum.

Just a gut instinct I guess, your post reeks of wanting to vote Livingod but not because he's your Godfather.

Feb 10:

So as i see it theoper. You are voting for me because of my gut instinct on twito. However, you are voting off of a gut instinct too. Hypocritical, are we?

I wasn't the one who made out I was voting someone on a gut instinct, but would happily jump to another if he looked like being lynched.

I find this response awfully scummy, as Scotmany didn't say anything remotely similar to being happy to jump to LG if it looked like he'd be lynched.

confirm vote theopor_COD

[Kelly Chen]

[Kelly Chen]

Don't worry about whether you look scummy, just lynch the scum. That is your mission as protown.

[Kelly Chen]

I'd like to know WHO on his wagon theopor_COD thinks might be scum. If he's just assuming there must be scum on him because of the sheer number, it's quite useless to point out...

[Kelly Chen]

Twito is this your case against DoS?

Looking back I really don't see what DoS wasn't commenting on that he could've been.

I'm inclined to vote Amb for his case against Twito.

I agree with Twito's suspicion of OverTheUnder for this post, which I could definitely see as scum trying to look like they're joining a wagon for a good reason. But I could see it as lazy/busy town piggybacking also. And hey, I think the case against theopor_COD is so obvious it barely needs to be laid out.

phita23 doesn't look any better, but he's probably awol.

I want Rand Althor to comment on the theopor_COD wagon darn it!

And I want theopor_COD himself to pick out some scum suspects from it.

Chibo's vote for theopor_COD ("Need to get on with the game") is a little fishy. Though that's such an overtly bad reason...

[Kelly Chen]

Ok.

unvote, vote: OverTheUnder

[Kelly Chen]

Hi all.

We'll start with a

vote scotmany

.

You guys let him off the mat too easily.

I want to know why you think he should still be on the mat...

[Kelly Chen]

Scotmany and Riverwind got townie points on this page.

I hope Chibo gets vigged. OTU did post some stuff, good enough stuff I think.

unvote, vote: Amb

Definitely more likely scum than Kaleidoscope.

[Kelly Chen]

I agree completely with COD here. I don't see how Kelly says he got townie points and this page when he basically told everyone voting on someone who only has 1 or 2 votes to wagon COD or OverTheUnder. I don't see why we should stop voting for who we feel is scummy. But hey I feel my vote should be switched.

Vote:Riverwind

It'll help if we use our votes to create some pressure. I'm not really frustrated with anyone currently voting an oddball though.

Ok, my suspicsion of Twito has decreased due to COD acting exetremely protown. Twito I still have my eye on you. My eyes are also on BM and Chibo. At this point Chibo should be vigged for their is no reason to keep a lurker in the game.

I don't think COD is acting extremely protown at all. His last three posts poked at three different people (and rather uselessly I thought), all harder targets than Chibo, where his vote still is.

Your mileage may vary, but Scotmany's Amb vote is one of the most not-scummy posts I've seen. It's beyond me what COD disliked about that post.

[Kelly Chen]

In response to Kelly Chen -

I found Scot's vote scummy because firstly he was voting Chibo, his post 325 was pretty emphatic

Vote: Chibo

Think about it. Why else would you not want to post unless you are scum?

Then next time he posts he quickly changes votes to Amb, what made him change his mind about Chibo so much? Is that too difficult to understand why I found it slightly scummy, Kelly?

Maybe he didn't change his mind about Chibo...

You also said that there were more "obvious" people to vote than Amb. It's not clear to me that this is the same issue you describe here. Is it?

Chibo mind needs to put in an appearance it's been a week, instead of Vigging him can't we just lynch him. And yep my vote is still on him, mainly because I think he's the scummiest out there, appearing or not.

We'll get less information from lynching him, since he probably won't fight back, and he probably won't be defended.

I have the impression that you're doing the safe thing in continuing to vote for Chibo, but if one of your jabs at another player takes hold, you will gleefully move your vote.

As for the case against Amb, I don't see it so much, Amb has pointed out why he found Twito and OtH scummy in this post

FOS River

for being Livingod's first vote (and for saying "My heart scares me. It has evil ideas" :p)

Minor FOS OverTheUnder

for being the hammering vote (A reluctant scum perhaps?)

Vote Twito

for "The wagon on livingod lacking speed just proves that it's on scum."
1. Potentially sounds like inside knowledge
2. He was late on the bandwagon himself. Does his statement apply equally to him?
3. Besideswhich there wasn't evidence of any description. Someone had to be lynched and we got lucky. The lack of speed on any bandwagon can be attributed to 'Town' players who don't honestly know if the target is scum.

This post sucks though. How can every single one of his suspicions be based on the thought that scum bussed each other.

It's not as if he's just started to suspect him, there's also a case for voting UndertheOver for hammering the Godfather as ~n9v~ points out here, although again I'm not convinced on an OtH vote.

Actually,

Vote: OverTheUnder

for the uncalled-for hammer on livingod. I beleive he is scum, hammering the Godfather, because he knew that he was already screwed. So he decided to make it look like he was town.

This reasoning is awful too, other than the "uncalled-for hammer" charge.

Anyway I just don't really like Scot's quick change based on Amb's post, especially as Amb has already pointed out his feelings on UtO and Twito. You Kelly seem to be defending Scot a fair bit aswell, anything in it?

I'm not saying Amb is scummy for saying he's willing to move to Twito. I didn't find that post of Amb's scummy. I just don't find anything scummy about Scotmany's vote; I think it was quite positive especially considering that the Chibo wagon is proving useless.

I'm defending Scotmany because I think the case against him is dumb.

Another thing worth pointing out to Kelly, you seemed to be convinced on Phita, has anything changed since Lowell replaced?

Not really. Lowell is the one who wants to go after Scotmany again.

Elsewhere I can't for the life of me see how Riverwind has gained any townie points, all he seems to have done is posted irrelevant drivel and this post just reeks.

ok, all the people on the little one votes should switch to a meaningful bandwagon or at least a possible one.

I don't think that post reeks. I feel like I know where he's coming from with that.

His posts have a lot of drivel, but I don't think it's scummy. It's not like he's flying under the radar, or trying to look more useful than he is.

[Kelly Chen]

Anyway if we're looking back at the previous lynch, what do you make of the Cheesefan/Battle Mage argument?

I think both Cheesefan and BM are probably town. So I've kind of ignored that argument.

I'll have to look back and see what the case against Kaleidoscope is supposed to be.

A brand new theopor wagon would be exciting however.

[Kelly Chen]

Wow, who said that? Was it livingod?

Kaleidoscope does not seem scummy to me btw.

[Kelly Chen]

Also, one more thing. If I was in the mafia, I would've killed OverTheUnder Night1, for hammering their GodFather. But no, they hammered spectrumvoid who did what? Put him at -1 to lynch, which I guess is a pretty good reason. Heh, guess I should've looked all the way back on that one, before I started typing this one.

I find this kind of talk extremely scummy.

Although I can hardly imagine that the scum group is collectively so stupid as to NK someone for this reason...

But if thats not enough, I strongly beleive that he is scum, that if we lynch him and I am wrong, then you can lynch me the next day.

This is not helpful

Or if I'm right, I pray the doctor in this game will save me!

Please do not direct the doctor. That is also not helpful.

[Kelly Chen]

Okay I guess no one's buying the theo thing... yet.

unvote, vote Kaleidoscope

for the sheer thrill of aggression.

Does Lowell not realize theo already got up to 8 votes?

Yeah okay, that sounds better.

unvote, vote AMB

Yeah this after a vote for Kaleidoscope. Looking for the more viable wagon.

I have my eye on Lowell but the vote stays on Amb.

Much happier with OTU right now.

[Kelly Chen]

^-- where did this guy come from??

[Kelly Chen]

Well to be fair it seems he did FOS him earlier.

[Kelly Chen]

I had to be sure to post that asap or the ^---- arrow wouldn't work right.

[Kelly Chen]

Quick question

Livingod clearly needs to die. He posted after DoS made the semi-scummy post without saying anything about it, then after Sham notices he votes along.

SCUM

SCUM = VOTE

UNVOTE VOTE: livingod

This is clearly a counterwagon. Livingod was at three. DoS was at 4.

I'm not sure what you're getting at or commenting on here.

[Kelly Chen]

I also had the thought that Lowell might be playing lowelly.

I've only played with him in Switch Mafia, where I'm pretty sure I would've thought he was scum if I hadn't been scum myself.

[Kelly Chen]

Sorry for my inactivity. I'm really having trouble making myself think about my games. Things will get better once I get home internet, mid next week (I hope).

If anyone wants to ask my thoughts on anything in particular, I'll give at least a half-assed answer on Monday.

[Kelly Chen]

I find myself remembering Switch Mafia from about here, the only other game I've played with Lowell. He was kinda scummy town.

Looking over Lowell's posts here though, nothing even strikes me as that scummy. phita's post was kinda scummy, but not enough to stop me from betting that Lowell is town. The vote hopping doesn't strike me as very suspicious I must say; someone needs to make the argument that he tried to make it look like it wasn't vote hopping or something. The argument that he didn't explain his votes (I believe I read that charge somewhere) actually makes vote-hopping look

less

scummy I believe. I hope I'm not attacking a strawman here.

Let's see. IH also asks what I think of BM thinking that scum are after him. That seems pretty ludicrous iirc. Glancing back at the vote counts there are only a few people voting for BM, like Cheesefan a couple weeks ago, Riverwind, Kaleidoscope, Rand Althor. I think there is scum in this foursome, I doubt somewhat that BM is scum, but I think if scum are voting BM they merely hope he's an easy lynch. He might be.

Lowell asks who's the scummiest on his wagon. This will require another post I think as I'm running out of time to write this. Let me just paste:

Lowell- 7 (Twito, Rand Althor, panzerjager, ~N9V~, Amb, Cheesefan, DragonsofSummer)

Relying just on my memory I believe the most likely to be scum are RA, ~N9V~, Amb, possibly panzerjager. Really can't remember much about panzerjager. I had the impression that Cheesefan is town. Twito seems town to me, but circumstances also suggest he is town (I'd say the same about DoS; I seem to recall some sentiment that he might be scum anyway, but I'm not familiar with the cause of this atm).

Another post will have to do better justice to this question.

[Kelly Chen]

al_ko, why did you FOS me?

[Kelly Chen]

Posting to say I'm here, don't need replacement, and should participate better in the future.

The thing is that I frequently glance at this game, view all posts by the people being run up today, and feel really ambivalent about lynching any of them.

I'm keeping my vote on Amb right now, as I feel he's a better lynch than Lowell. I'm not sure about say N9V or Panzerjager.

I hope to read all this stuff tomorrow and make a better post.

[Kelly Chen]

I concur with IH

Fos: Jalyn
Fos: Panzerjager

People behaving oddly wrt Lowell is more a reason to vote them, not him.

I will probably be switching to N9V.

EWP: actually

unvote vote N9V

.

I still say Chibo/mole/Jalyn is a decent vig choice. maybe theopor_COD. I got to remember to look and see who contributed to letting all the air out of his wagon.

can we lynch Chibo? He really isn't playing at all so would it be wise to lynch him if he isn't really playing? He is like a silent vanilla townie.

wtf?

[Kelly Chen]

I do not like theopor_COD's weak criticism of me and IH (people he fairly rarely comments on), citing a general principle that vigs shouldn't be directed, when in my mind it isn't clear why in this game the vig shouldn't be directed, especially by "experienced" players.

Unless of course theopor_COD would like to say explicitly that he suspects one or both of us as being scum. But I have a feeling he won't be doing that unless there's already a wagon going.


It also occurred to me just now that yellowbounder/alko is pretty likely to be scum. (Had to check who alko replaced.)


What do you guys think? al_ko + theopor_COD scum? Who are the rest?

[Kelly Chen]

And why wouldn't you be scum, eh? You seem to have convinced a lot of ppl that your townie, I'm not convinced, mind I'd have to re-read it all to get a better opinion and being as we're one day away from a deadline I'd be happier lynching Lowell or ~n9v~. Although it's noticable that Amb has gone silent.

Also I don't think anyone should be directing the vig unless they have

hard solid evidence of which you have none

! Your last post to me indicates experienced players have a right to direct a vig, well those

experienced players have as much chance of being scum as town

, let the vig make his own mind up, especially being as it's only day 2.

That you still view the game in this light makes me feel you are mostly uninterested in committing to an opinion that someone is probably town. I.e. you want to keep all your lynch options open.

I will consider you less dangerous if you say who you think is town. And not something like "he's either scum or scummy newbie town but I lean towards town"

*

. Tell us a couple of bandwagons that you wouldn't be joining any time soon.

Anyway, my point isn't that I think experienced players have a right to direct a vig, it's that I feel you want to throw dirt at me and IH without actually claiming to suspect us.

*

references:

Okay well Cheesefan has offered a reasonable defence still suspect him, I'm pretty happy with a lynch of Lowell, I've already expressed my opinions on him.
unvote, vote Lowell

Good reasoning. As such unvote. You seem to have cleared a few things up for me.

Lowell, although I thought he acted scummy at first has brought up some decent reasons for his actions so I'm happier about him.

Anyway ~n9v~ is either scum or a scummy townie, I'd lean more to a scummy newbie townie.

We will probably learn more from lynching Lowell, yeh I know it's bandwagon hop

By the way, I believe we learn jack from lynching town.

[Kelly Chen]

Due to the lack of time and unusual lack of interest in consolidating votes, I guess we should lynch N9V and think about nabbing theopor_COD tomorrow.

Your absolutely certain Lowell's town then?

No. I'm not sure what this is a response to. When I said I think we learn jack by lynching town, this was a reference to you suggesting we lynch Lowell because it would be informative.

If this is a reference to me asking you to name some people you think are town, then I think you are twisting my meaning.

[Kelly Chen]

vote: Kaleidoscope

[Kelly Chen]

Hint: There is a clue on this page.

Also, I went ahead and read through all his posts. He could be scum. We'll see.

FOS Rand Althor

for the theory that scum attempted to discredit {Twito, ~N9V~, Cheesefan, Jalyn, theopor_COD, Amb, Rand Althor, Battle Mage} by killing Lowell. That's not a very intuitive theory to me. I think it's much more likely that scum just decided it wasn't worth it to keep trying to get Lowell lynched.

[Kelly Chen]

unvote

because I can't keep up atm and don't want a lynch yet.

kard will probably be modkilled so I'ma ignore him. I'm not even going to be nice to him.

or hell.

vote: N9V

[Kelly Chen]

I'm guessing now a ranger is a kardkraizee alt, since I'm pretty sure now a ranger has done similar crap.

Search is disabled atm so I can't grab evidence for this.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm guessing now a ranger is a kardkraizee alt, since I'm pretty sure now a ranger has done similar crap.
Search is disabled atm so I can't grab evidence for this.

Ah so now a ranger is also kardkraizee? Or was should I say.

Is that allowed having two usernames?

It's allowed, but I consider it evidence in this case that he only has them to wreak havoc.

[Kelly Chen]

A few comments as I read. I might be repeating myself.

[quote="scotmany12"]Maybe it was the mafia, and they killed lowell knowing that scope might possibly be the prime suspect. They could be setting him up.[/quote]
How does this work? And how does this work more than, say, killing an innocent N9V would?

I have searched my heart and come to a reasonably positive opinion of refusing to vote Lowell even at the expense of NL.

[quote="Panzerjager"]I screwed up my vote in my second to last post. I posted "Unvote:Lowell" and I meant to Unvote and vote Lowell. Still there is no excuse for Kaleidoscope to push for the no lynch. Vote:Kaleidoscope[/quote]

FOS: Panzerjager

you opportunistic liar (possibly)

Perhaps it would be useful to look over every post that has voted Kaleidoscope and see who looked like they were trying to come up with some BS justification in their own words or something. For example, I don't like Panzerjager's vote much, but Battle Mage's seems better:

[quote="BM"]what K-scope did yesterday was completely idiotic. As it turns out, we had a lucky escape, and it turns out your mistake hasnt been costly. In fact, i dont believe that this act yesterday was especially scummy. However, throughout the whole of yesterday i had my vote on you, and if i remember correctly, for very good reason.
Vote Kaleidoscope
-2 lynch if Rand was correct. Time to claim?[/quote]

[quote="theopor_COD"]Two things.

One Kscope's vote was scummy but it wouldn't have affected the lynch either way as he has pointed out, Lowell still wouldn't have had a majority.

Two If he's scum it's a pretty stupid move to kill Lowell thus drawing this kind of attention on himself.

Now I'm not clearing him, but this wagon seems to have developed without much thought. I don't think we should clear ~n9v~ either.[/quote]
Thinking theopor_COD is not scum with Kaleidoscope. I do not understand point two.

Town points for scotmany and OTU, maybe Rand Althor. Can't remember precisely why atm, but felt I should mention it.

[quote="theopor_COD"][quote="Rand Althor"][quote="kardkraizee"]because everyone else is[/quote]FoS:The hell out of you for this.[/quote]Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place but this a bit of pot calling the kettle black. Yeh Kard's vote is scummy but not much more than yours.

Whatever Scope voted it would be a no lynch at that time.

[quote="Rand Althor"]Forgot to Vote: K-Scope no reason for going for a no lynch.[/quote]
And then you want an alternative wagon setup aswell, why not bring up some targets of your own.

[quote="Rand Althor"]Agreed please don't hammer K-Scope. I'd also like to hear other targets for the lynch today.[/quote][/quote]
Hmm, interesting. My mind tends to see theopor_COD throwing some harmless dirt at scumpal Rand Althor, in defense of townies Kaleidoscope and kardkraizee/Cheesefan.

[quote="theopor_COD"]Rand - not a good one, it would have been no lynch whatever.[/quote]
Okay. This (with underlined section above) starts to look like some unnatural degree of defense to me. It is factually true that Kaleidoscope couldn't single-handedly make the difference. That should hardly clear him entirely.

[quote="theopor_COD"]Erm what are we going to do about Kard? Is he any help alive.[/quote]
dude wtf.

[quote="theopor_COD"]Therefore to summarise I don't really like a few of the early votes on this wagon seems they're trying to set ppl up for an easy lynch, me included due to my wishy washy voting re - lowell yesterday. And I don't like the last few votes on the Scope wagon because they appear to be easy wagon votes,

mind like Kardkraizee you can't tell if their newbies or scum.

[/quote]
This looks like total bs to me. Is that what newb scum does, is throw together a townie PM?

[quote]Anyway -

Vote Twito

as I see him as the main mover in setting up Scope.[/quote]
Twito was the first vote. How does this work?

[quote="DragonsofSummer"]That the scum would have killed Lowell to throw suspicion onto K-scope isn't something I had thought of (obviously since I didn't understand Lowell's death) and and with that to foil against the case against him I will unvote.[/quote]
How does this theory work?

[quote="Kaleidoscope"]I've also said Twito and Cheesefan are likely scum in my eyes as well.[/quote]
to which:
[quote="theopor_COD"]Cheesefan is now Kardkraizee so that rules that one out.[/quote]
So theopor_COD has come around. Kardkraizee is definitely town. But we still get:
[quote="theopor_COD"]kard - you mafia? playing us for fools posting that PM.

now a ranger - you playing? No don't think so, so leave.[/quote]
Pretty sure theopor_COD would've loved a kardkraizee lynch. (Why then say Cheesefan is ruled out as scum? Maybe this makes sense in the context of the small tiff with Kaleidoscope (theopor_COD had thrown some dirt at Kaleidoscope asking him to provide some other suspicions beyond BM).)

[quote="Panzerjager"]Well, that was stupid and pisses me off. I will withdraw from explanation at the moment. Thank you CDB for modkill though. Very appreciated. I understand COD, agruement and my vote was based on me thinking he could have lynched if my vote had counted. I will Unvote. I also agree that we should keep eyes on Twito if he ever comes back with good internet.[/quote]
This blips slightly for me.

[quote="Amb"]How did we end up with no lynch? I will be looking carefully at Panzerjager, scotmany12, KaleiÐoscøpe and al_kohaulec to make sure they werent one of the rabid 'never no lynch' people from earlier (or was that the mcdonalds game, apologies if it was).

I do not like this statement by DOS: "I am fairly baffled why Lowell was killed. To me it would make more sense to let him stay alive and keep the suspicion of the town on him. " ... It sounds a bit distancey.[/quote]
Amb.townpoints+=3; for these observations. Need to take another look at him.

[quote="N9V"]Heh, I'm not enjoying this huge wagon jump onto me, andmight i add, that is exactly what my role said... Does that count as quoting the role PM? Because I didn't say it.

Also, for you who put a vote on me now, I would thin kit would be very scummy to do so.

[/quote]
What? Why? Because you've claimed townie?

I'm not sure whether I think this N9V post is scummy or not.

[quote="theopor_COD"]I'm with ~n9v~ he acts scummy but he's town I reckon,

and being as we've lost one townie today through Kard's stupiditiy and one last night in Lowell we need to avoid the easy scummy newbie lynch.

[/quote]
Uh? Not sure what theopor_COD is doing in this post. Underlined section is a lot of unnecessary wordage I think, beefing up what is just a waffly comment of "N9V acts scummy but he's town I reckon!"

Not sure whether I think N9V post 917 is scummy.

I don't find BM post 920 scummy but I have trouble agreeing with it.

So in conclusion

unvote, vote: theopor_COD

I hope to find time to look over the whole game by player.

[Kelly Chen]

What I don't understand is how killing Lowell sets up Kaleidoscope.

[Kelly Chen]

I want to point out that a townie claim shouldn't be accepted from theopor_COD.

Nobody needs to ask me why I say that, right?

[Kelly Chen]

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

So you have. Well, can you explain your apparent skepticism at kardkraizee's quoted role PM?

Battle Mage makes me sad.

[Kelly Chen]

Is that four people in a row able to believe theopor_COD was on a joking spree?

"Kard - are you for real?"

"Erm what are we going to do about Kard? Is he any help alive."

"mind like Kardkraizee you can't tell if their newbies or scum."

"kard - you mafia? playing us for fools posting that PM."

Definitely committing Amb and Panzerjager's posts here to memory. I get a "yeah he's scummy, def vote him maybe, but-- hey look over there!" potential from both.

Panzerjager, can you clarify why scum Theo would suggest scum Kaleidoscope (or vice versa) and why Kaleidoscope's actions are more damning than theopor_COD's?

Amb, why do you have to wait for a general consensus to decide whether theopor_COD "made a joke"?

I will take a special look at Amb's thoughts on scotmany however.

[Kelly Chen]

Some responses.

826 KC presses against a Lowell lynch, maybe some insider knowledge. Prefers a ~n9v~ today and one on me tomorrow, which she is avidly pushing.

How come only my position on Lowell might be insider knowledge?

827 - riverwind as usual posts nothing of content

Well, he basically FOSed you and told Lowell not to waste his vote.

829 - Amb votes Lowell

830 - BM votes Lowell - both these votes seem genuine to me

Damn. Amb's vote had no commentary.

833 - Jalyn seems genuine, Scot then attacks her for it, whilst the

previous post he didn't make any difference to the wagons

, seems contradictory to me.

Underlined seems false. The attack doesn't seem contradictory to me. Scotmany said he preferred to vote Amb, but if the town were choosing between N9V and Lowell, it should be N9V. Jalyn said she was not getting off "the high bandwagon." Scotmany attacked her for suggesting that was the only reason behind her vote choice.

836 - Scope unvotes BM, throws pointless vote on ~n9v~ prior to deadline. This vote wouldn't have affected the lynch, which seems to be the main basis for the seven votes thereafter, however when I first viewed the thread I tended to miss Scope's insistence that against a Lowell lynch, thus again meaning a possible insider information tell.

FOS Scope

You know it's not a scum tell every time someone picks out a protown player without using ESP.

837 - Twito calls Scope out for stopping a lynch, my first reaction to this was bollocks as it wouldn't have been a lynch whatever, the previous voters IH and Scot are also applicable here, but Twito seems insistent on painting Scope as scum.

The only reason it was bollocks is that Scope was voting BM, not Lowell. Take a look at the VC in 835. It looks like Lowell is the only one with a prayer of being lynched.

841 - Twito back on the attack, votes Scope straight away, my thinking here is why on earth would Scope if he's scum have Lowell killed just after pretty much revealing he thought he was town. I can't see Scope or a scum group killing Lowell basically, maybe that's my poor logic and someone else can help.

A reasonable question.

842 - KC votes Scope no reason. Seems an easy vote she doesn't note that Scope's vote would have led to a lynch then in 847 she elaborates a little more, without this being revealed I assume it's the fact that Scope preferred the no lynch to Lowell lynch. Forgive me if i'm wrong here.

I think he may have said as much.

I was alright with voting Scope due to his seemingly useless deadline vote (I had not noticed he hadn't been voting Lowell). The main reason I voted Scope was to give momentum to Twito's vote.

849 - DoS as far as I can tell doesn't see it, but votes Scope anyway, his vote is pretty contradictory aswell with the "I don't see why scum have killed Lowell" - Infact don't like this vote out of the wagon the most so another

FOS DoS

Why do you think this vote ("I am fairly baffled why Lowell was killed. To me it would make more sense to let him stay alive and keep the suspicion of the town on him.") is contradictory?

852 - Twito makes reference to maybe a Vig killing Lowell, this I could possibly understand but it's interesting to note, no-one else comments on it.

I think the suggestion is incredibly unlikely.

Scot implies it's the mafia trying to set up Scope which was my first thought when I viewed the thread, since I've re-read it I'm not so sure.

Man, I don't understand how that can be your first thought.

855 - Panzer's vote is somewhat scummy again using the no lynch as an argument for a Scope vote, no one brings up the possible insider info on Lowell's death as a possible theory.

It's a possible theory but it shouldn't be the best one. When someone does something that helps town or hurts scum the first thought should be "indicates town" not "omg inside knowledge".

863 - Scope pipes up, firstly didn't realise we needed a majority, seems genuine, thing is even if Scope votes Lowell it's no lynch. Not overly keen on his second reason that he didn't like a Lowell lynch period this again tells me he knew something solid about Lowell pre-lynch.

And so he keeps talking about it to bring suspicion on himself.

Bit of chat around Kard's vote, he then replies in 873 because everyone else is, now I'm thinking what the fuck, has this guy not read any of the previous 35 pages before replacing in, yeh i'm pretty pissed of about it. RA FOS's kard for doing so, which seems slightly scummy to me, because he's pretty much doing likewise and

although KC argues he has a reason in her long post, the reason as I've pointed out is flawed.

I don't know what you're referring to here. I don't think I commented on RA FOSing kardkraizee.

883 - River seems eager to board the Scope wagon which is still at -2. Votes ~n9v~ seems the easy alternative to me.

I would rather say that if Scope is scum, River looks like he doesn't really want to vote him and so could be scum with him.

884 I'm still shocked by Kard and dissapointed, more wondering here if he'll get modkilled which he does eventually.

I believe this is a lie and you should try explaining again. Your post 884 seems to clearly suggest that Kard should die

because he's no help alive

.

886 - Scope seems to have continued insider knowledge

If this is true then Scope would have to be stupid. What could he possibly gain by shouting I TOTALLY KNEW THAT DEAD GUY WAS TOWN! ?

893 - KC another to unvote Scope, votes ~n9v~ doesn't make any other comment. Is it because the flaw in your plan has failed?

What was the flaw in my plan that had failed?

896 - I'm commenting on Scope's theory that Cheesefan is scum, add that Kard is now Cheesefan and has quoted his PM, so guess Cheese isn't scum, fact that Scope doesn't realise Cheese has been replaced is worrying.

It is fascinating that you claim that in post 896 you realized that kardkraizee had posted

your

role pm and so "guessed" he wasn't scum and then went on to ask him whether he was mafia.

901 - This post is after some interaction between Now a Ranger and Kard, now I was unaware they were alts and the same one, so i'm pretty much even more peeved that Now a Ranger has posted in a game, he's not playing, the Kard are you mafia thing is a jokey throwaway comment, yeh I can see it being taken in the wrong context but ppl have taken it to mean too much KC especially. I don't know how many games Kard has played so although he strikes you as a newbie idiot, I'm just keeping an open mind with the little comment. In hindsight I shouldn't have said it.

But no matter how newb and idiot kard is, he has a copy of your role pm.

915 - My post is not a defence of ~n9v~

it's more a look at the people who seem to be using him as an easy place to leave their vote. Which by reckoning is DoS, OtU, KC.

Yes it certainly is not much of a defense of N9V, it just looks like it's supposed to sound like it is. You give that post too much credit with that underlined stuff as post 915 was almost totally fluff.

KC first states she would refuse to vote Lowell even at the expense off a no lynch, why may I add, surely a lynch would give us more info than a no lynch?

No, I didn't say that. I'm saying I can understand Scope feeling that way.

Then attacks Panzer for his so called lack of vote on Lowell.

I mainly attacked Panzer for his vote of Scope. I am not at all sure he was lying about his supposed screw up.

And also argues that it's not neccessary for people to come up with any bullshit reasons for voting for Scope.

Wth man. I didn't say this. But even so, of course it is "not necessary" to do something as ridiculously scummy as concoct BS reasons to vote Scope.

The thing to remember the main argument against the Scope wagon was flawed, his lack of vote for Lowell wouldn't have made one iota of difference, therefore I think we should be looking at the people on the Scope wagon. Christ there was seven ppl on it your not telling me all were lynch hungry townies.

I agree with this. This at least was the value of the Scope wagon.

Say's she doesn't understand point two well simply I can't understand if Scope's scum that they'd decide to kill Lowell why is that difficult to understand.

Because everyone would accuse Scope of inside knowledge or what?

Say's that Scot,

RA

and OtU get

town points

. Kelly please point these out because so far this page I can't see much from em. OtU has done nothing aside from attack Kard and vote ~n9v~. RA has hopped on the Scope wagon and then jumped off when it was pointed out that Scope's vote was irrelevant. Scot just doesn't appear to be helping with his continued vendetta against Amb. So please point out there town points for me will you.

It's just vibes.

Scotmany's 851: Aggression towards me (though could be parroting IH), leaves Scope vote possibility open but prefers to put a first vote on Amb. 853 is kind of scummy. In truth not too many town points for these, but I like that he seems to know where he stands. (I do intend to look at him again, though.)

OTU's 871 just gives me good vibes. It's very much not an "under the radar" type post.

Rand Althor's response to me 858 I liked. Struck me as genuine at a first glance.

The next line say's I'm throwing needless dirt at my

scumbuddy Rand

this despite the previous line saying Rand got town points, make your mind up!!

If I did that you'd say I had inside information. I can't make my mind up because it's two different pieces of information, they tell me different things, I don't have ESP. If you demand my opinion right now, I am certainly not ready to lynch him.

Accuses me of a natural defence of Scope, not at all what I'm doing is trying to figure out why Scope has seven votes before many ppl have posted, not a defence more that I'm looking for reasons and keeping an open mind unlike a lot of people.

Un

natural defense because you keep pushing that Scope's vote wasn't decisive, as though that totally exempts him from having some responsibility to get us a lynch.

Attacks me for attacking Kard, which seems to be her main reason for wanting me lynched now.

Yes, because you should have realized he was town.

Accuses my whole argument of being total bullshit, thing is no one else has even bothered to look for an alternative argument to the Scope must scum, everyone's so damn happy to just go along with it, Kelly included.

What I called total BS was the suggestion that one can't tell whether a newb like Kard is scum or just a newb.

Though when I read that section again, I see your point is more about the votes for Scope, not Kard's alignment. So to that extent I take back the "total bs" charge.

There's some more points she raises but it still the same, just trying to accuse me of basically trying to look for alternative lynches. Hell I don't if Scope's scummy, I just don't like the way he got 7 votes before I posted anything that seemed more scummy to me,

After the part of my post where I questioned your Twito vote, my points against you are that I believe you wanted to suggest a kardkraizee lynch (inexplicably), and that your post 915 looks like fluff.

As for a vote well I'd prefer that everyone takes a look at Kelly so far this game, instead of viewing her so pro-town which seems to be the general consensus, yeh there's a bit of OMGUS in that but she seems to be overly picking me on.

What for finding a wagon on Scope suspicious and then finding a replacement a complete retard and waste of time.

If everyone could post an opinion on KC that would be nice, if your all in agreement with her then fine she's a good player, I like her, just think she may well be scum herself.

Kelly is town. Underlined synopsis of my points against you is hilarious.

[Kelly Chen]

Fewer scum groups -> Fewer total scum.

I'd say we're looking for 3 or 4 more mafia, and no SK (no evidence for one). If this town is weak (it seems it might be) then 3 is quite possible.

One fourth of 20 is 5.

I really don't understand why IH mentioned scum power roles but not town power roles.

[Kelly Chen]

No, I was referring to 985.

[Kelly Chen]

Vote count for my own sake

~N9V~- 4 (Riverwind23, DragonsofSummer, OverTheUnder, alko)
theopor_COD- 3 (Kelly Chen, Jalyn, panzerjager)
KaleiÐoscøpe- 2 (Twito, Battle Mage)
Amb- 1 (scotmany12)
Battle Mage- 1 (KaleiÐoscøpe)
scotmany12- 1 (Amb)
Panzer - 1 (IH)
RA - 1 (theopor_COD)

Not voting : Rand Althor, ~N9V~


I'm not too persuaded on Scope being scum. theopor_COD's recent posts are at least useful. But the inability of his wagon to gain steam is just astonishing.

I made my first big post against theopor_COD in 220. Riverwind FOSs him, acknowledging this might bite him in the butt. theopor_COD votes me. Twito posts
[quote="Twito"]My suspects for scum, remember this after we lynch t_COD:
Riverwind is scum with theopor_COD.
Kaleidoscope is scummy.
Riverwind is scum with Cheesefan.[/quote]
and votes theo. DoS votes theo 226. scotmany 228.

Here theopor_COD comments that he thinks scum are happily joining the bandwagon. If I'm not mistaken there are just four people. Me, Twito, DoS, scotmany. Riverwind declined.

Battle Mage joins 234. Twito tells Riverwind this is his chance to bus his scumbuddy. Chibo/mole/Jalyn joins 240. Scope points out that he pushed LG (in response to Twito's suspicions) and joins theo 245. Townie Cheesefan joins 246.

Battle Mage unvotes 247 because Scope and Cheesefan are on the wagon.

Riverwind calls Twito a jerk but gives in to the pressure to vote theo 251. Says theopor is scummier than BM. Battle Mage remarks on this saying the third musketeer joined the wagon.

Seriously, Battle Mage is probably town! What can he gain from agitating Riverwind over this.

OTU joins the wagon 257. I must say that if OTU were scum, this is the post I would expect from him.

Ah, Twito didn't like that vote either 258.

DoS tells Riverwind he needs to unvote first if he wants to vote theopor. Weird. Enough to convince me that there is at least one townie between DoS and Riverwind to be sure.

Rand Althor votes BM 277 because of his reasoning for getting off of theopor.

theopor_COD posts a defense and unvotes me 281. Without waiting for commentary, Riverwind corrects his mistake of not unvoting, and votes theopor correctly. This suggests to me that Riverwind isn't scum with theopor_COD.

N9V says he wants a claim before he hammers. Riverwind agrees a claim would be nice. Of course he's already claimed. Hrm. Not sure what to think of this.

Twito gets off 287 because the wagon is "too happy." Good point though that N9V and Riverwind look a bit scummy here.

N9V casts random vote for OTU instead. Because of the LG hammer.

Amb moves from Twito to OTU.

Amb says theopor case is not particularly strong 296.

OTU explains 298 why he voted theo, and also points out that N9V could be scum with him.

299 yellowbounder posts this bullshit out of nowhere in response to N9V's vote for OTU
[quote="yb"]This is one of those really annoying WIFOM arugments, not to mention it fails to take into the possibility that OverTheUnder could have just been a townie hammering a godfather.

A Finger of Suspision maybe, but as I've been told, you can't second guess a WIFOM arugment.[/quote]
Ok, actually that's not bullshit but pretty reasonable. But I notice a total failure to comment on other recent events.

Scotmany unvotes with no other direction in 304, apparently satisfied with theopor's defense.

308 theopor_COD answers my request to pick out some scum from his wagon, listing Chibo and Scope as the worst, followed by Riverwind, OTU, and N9V. Votes Chibo.

ah 315 RA says theopor_COD is the wrong lynch, BM better.

N9V 321 is scummy. Asks theopor "why you think I am scum" when he was the last name theopor listed in 308.

hm, I'm the next one to get off of theopor in favor of OTU.

Scotmany moves to Chibo.

Panzerjager's first post is 328. Damn, that is kind of a scummy post. He expresses some suspicion of theopor, Twito, Chibo (vote goes here), Riverwind, BM. Calls me, Amb, and DoS town although says my townness is limited by my interactions with Twito.

Lowell comes in 333 with a scotmany vote, and let me guess, everything went to hell from here.

Trying to decide where to end this post, but maybe I'll keep going awhile. Battle Mage continues being misguided town on this page (14). IH repl water_foul.

Panzerjager agrees 350 with Lowell that Scotmany was let off the mat too easily. That's interesting since he didn't list Scotmany earlier. Says he prefers to keep voting Chibo, though. Two possible scenarios suggested here: 1. Panzerjager is scum happy to consider voting townie Scotmany with townie Lowell, and 2. Panzerjager is scum with Scotmany and wants to say he's suspicious but instead keeps his vote on Chibo. I think #1 would be more likely.

351 is Amb's "I'll join Twito wagon if it appears" that Scotmany (and also OTU) thought was scummy 358 and which fact theopor found scummy 364. Of these three posts I only found theopor's scummy (maybe OTU's too though), although I did not agree with the suspicion of Amb either.

I should say that e.g. Amb and Panzer's idea to vote Twito strikes me as extremely dumb. I was not going to mention it at all for this reason, but I may as well.

theopor 353 is useless dirt thrown at Panzer ("Seems a lot of scum to me, you got some insider information").

367 is vote count listing theopor still as leader with 6 votes. Riverwind (who is voting theopor) asks people to move to wagons that might actually work. I really don't see Riverwind making this comment if he's scum voting a townie.

Panzer 371 is interesting. Strongly agrees with theopor, and disagrees with my opinion that Scotmany and Riverwind got town points on this page. Moves from Chibo to Riverwind. I really don't find this post scummy. Says his suspicion of Twito declines due to theopor_COD acting "extremely protown." Says his eyes are still on BM and Chibo.

375 theopor reminds me that I really wasn't pro-Lowell this whole game.

Scope shows up, still wants BM lynch. Riverwind agrees, says the BM argument has been made at least by others, votes BM. Riverwind here is getting off of the big theopor wagon if I'm not mistaken.

theopor 384 seems ambivalent about BM being scum. Interested to see if theopor ever waffled on this later. He does conclude "I'm not sure he's either scum or he's a townie trying to defend what he thinks is another townie."

385 is Panzer's highly scummy "can we please lynch Chibo because he's like a silent vanilla townie" comment. Other suspects are BM and Riverwind.

Twito 386 is good, I note in particular underscoring theopor's observation that Scope was happy for a BM lynch but not voting him. Missed that. Twito also didn't like Panzer 385.

yellowbounder votes Scope 393, Amb tosses vote on 394 (no commentary), theopor in 396. Hm.

397 N9V says he'll reread but he's not moving his vote (from OTU I believe).

Riverwind 398 is interesting. His thoughts on the game after a reread. Notably, says there was no real case against theopor_COD. And that scotmany was not livingod's cheerleader. Scope is not worth a vote. FOSs Panzer and BM.

399 OTU asks Amb for reasoning. Pretty easy thing for OTU to do. I must say I am not liking OTU as much during this reread.

400 DoS joins Scope wagon "in light of all the information at hand." Alarm bells there.

403 Panzer dislikes wagon on Scope due to speed, but agrees he's scummy. So he

unvotes

and FOSs him. Panzer wasn't voting Scope was he? I'm pretty sure he was voting Chibo. Did Panzer ever suspect Scope? Is the purpose of Panzer's unvote that he might be considering voting for Scope? Serious

FOS: Panzerjager

for this post.

EDIT AFTER WRITING EVERYTHING: It must be noted that Panzer relentlessly did not want to vote Scope after this.

404 Amb is highly defensive in response to OTU's question. Other than that it is a reasonable response.

406 OTU pushes back. Clear suspicion of Amb. Not finding this suspicious of OTU.

Scope 410 is a response to yellowbounder's pbpa and vote for him. This post (Scope's) seems to be pure bullcrap, saying there was no reasoning given, FOSing yellowbounder, and reiterating his lame ass opinion that BM needs to die for protecting LG.

Lowell 413 takes on theopor and (still) scotmany. His case against theopor seems to be totally independent of prior events. Interesting that.

theopor's response is ok.

Chibo/mole 416 votes yellowbounder due to not knowing "where he stands on anything"! This seems quite strange considering yb's vote.

Scotmany's defense 418 against Lowell is fine.

theopor 419 responds that Lowell is full of shit and is just trying to save Scope. Huh.

421 another bullshit post from Scope, saying just that he likes how those suspecting him "miserably fail in explaining why. Doesn't seem like the townie way to me." This is how scum talk. And his vote is still on BM.

Amb 424 asks mole for more explanation of the yb vote. Because Amb likes his Scope stance. Notes that he even likes Twito more due to Scope.

hmm, 430 I (me) do not think Scope is scummy. I guess the difference is that I'm meticulously reading through things right now and I feel like Scope is more useless than average.

Scope 446, responding to attacks from Twito, is ok. This goes into the next page and is still ok.

Panzer shows up 464. Says he agrees with scotmany that it was just luck that livingod was scum. Doesn't see anything scummy about Scope except recent discussion, interesting. Says "He is using craplogic to defend crap logic and doing a bad job at trying to make BM seem scummy. I don't believe stupid is a voteable offense."

And once again Panzer unvotes and FOSs Twito. I don't think Panzer was voting at all here?

465 Riverwind wants to know what Twito would do if Scope came up town, and what Twito thinks about scotmany's failure to vote livingod. Neutral feeling here.

Panzer 468 tells Riverwind that Scotmany is def town, he wouldn't have voted LG either. Won't vote scope either. I will give Panzer town points for this post.

Panzer 475, after a reread of Scope I guess, ends up voting Twito. Scope doesn't vote on evidence. His vote for BM is reasonable. Makes the argument that Scope had no reason to bus LG.

479 Twito clarifies a lynch order of Lowell > Panzer > Scope > Riverwind.

Panzer says he's willing to call a truce in order to lynch Riverwind. Not happy with Lowell either. I think Panzer has some consistency to his opinions which suggests some protownness.

485 theopor says Lowell is scum, that much is obvious. 486 Panzer thanks him for that one line of OMGUS.

Amb 497 notes that Twito and Panzer have quickly changed to a cooperative stance with each other. In 499 it is fascinating that Panzer says that Twito is "presumably town."

500 OTU attacked Amb for 497! I guess. And votes Amb. Honestly scummy.

501 N9V posts long nonsense post. His case against OTU is ridiculous.

502 Panzer is already done with Lowell push and goes to OTU.

I'm stopping here at post 506 (OTU) because I'm feeling tired and am finding it hard to decide what I think of this post. Esp e.g. "I'm pretty sure that the only reason SpectrumVoid was lynched was to frame me."

Conclusions are going to have to wait. I'll say I think a little better of theopor and also Panzer. I think worse of OTU. Possibly Scope. I don't know what I think of Amb. I don't like Chibo/mole. From this section, I don't know what I think of N9V. BM, scotmany, and DoS I don't think are scum. Riverwind could be scum. yellowbounder/alko could be scum. Rand Althor I suppose.

I suspect I will end up advocating the lynch of someone who relatively hasn't said that much.

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly's pbpa is very informative, but doesnt reach a strong conclusion.

Well, I regret that I didn't take notes first and then write an essay. But I tried to put my thoughts into those notes so that it isn't just a summary of what happened. You could go through those posts, looking at mine, and decide if you agree/disagree with me for instance.

[Kelly Chen]

It's important to read your predecessor's posts when you're scum so you can see if they claimed anything you should know about.

heheheh

BM I suggest looking at some of my posts, especially after kardkraizee replaced in.

[Kelly Chen]

I believe I will say something on this game tonight.

[Kelly Chen]

Eh, I guess I'll look to contribute sthg tomorrow or Saturday. It's getting late.

I'm interested to take a look at everything posted so far by e.g. scotmany, Amb, Scope, N9V, Panzerjager, Rand Althor, Riverwind. Maybe OTU. There's obviously got to be scum in this group, and I want to be precise about who I think it might be and who it probably isn't.

At this point in time I am not thinking Panzerjager is scum. Though I am scratching my head at that last post.

[Kelly Chen]

Because it sounds like you're making a case, or at least a significant point, about the mere fact that theopor_COD claimed townie, or his behavior since claiming. It has been brought up, the fact that he claimed townie, to make a specific point involving his reactions to kardkraizee, but your previous post reads like you didn't grasp what that point was, but are still trying to use it.

[Kelly Chen]

I will be posting in this game soon.

[Kelly Chen]

Does anyone happen to remember how it was clear that N9V was directing those obscenities at IH?

I remember being confused since N9V quoted himself in that message.

[Kelly Chen]

unvote, vote: N9V

I think there is more reason to guess Scope is town than N9V. I'm not really excited about lynching either. But I don't want a NL and apparently a theopor_COD lynch is just not happening.

[Kelly Chen]

Kaleidoscope- 5 (Twito, Kaleidoscope, Battle Mage, ~N9V~, blahgo)
~N9V~- 4 (The Fonz, DragonsofSummer, KC, Amb)
theopor_COD- 3 (Jalyn, Rand Althor, Riverwind23)
Amb- 2 (scotmany12, panzerjager)
panzerjager- 1 (IH)
blahgo- 1 (theopor_COD)

Not voting: no one


And we've got what, six hours left?

[Kelly Chen]

I will post some suspects within twelve hours. And vote somebody.

[Kelly Chen]

On mafiascum cops almost always get guilty/not guilty, unless they're role cops.

In other news, I fell asleep instead of reading the game. Really thought I wouldn't do that after saying I'd be posting. Damn.

[Kelly Chen]

Occurs to me it's pretty obvious we don't have a vig.

[Kelly Chen]

Huh, the Fonz seems townie enough that I will stop suspecting yb/alko for the moment.

let's

vote: Rand Althor

for now.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm just putting it out there. It's consistent with what little I remember about all this.

I am reading every new post, but I'm just lost atm.

But I had a look at the OP and I was surprised that the huge category of "people that haven't really said anything and are thus generally scummier than those who are" doesn't really exist like I thought it did.

Alive (15/20)
2. yellowbounder al_kohaulec The Fonz : I was a bit suspicious of the yb+alko performance, but the Fonz' posts look promising.

3. Twito : based on D1 must be assumed to be town until something else comes up.

4. Frustian water_foul IH : I remember him as town except for the part where he brought up scum power for some reason.

5. Rand Althor : I had a couple of positive impressions of him but it really wasn't much at all.

6. Shamrock Panzerjager : I don't think Panzer's scum. I've never seen him as scum though...

7. DragonsofSummer : Not likely to be scum due to D1. I can't remember much else about him probably because I'm not actively considering him.

8. Amb : Could be scum. Occasionally has made me think otherwise though.

10. Battle Mage : I don't think BM's scum. But again I've never seen him as scum.

12. Chibo mole Jalyn : If theopor_COD is town, I can definitely see a scum Jalyn. Chibo+mole never earned any points of course. I noticed in this suspicion list by Jalyn:
[quote="Jalyn 1189"]The Iffy Folk:
blahgo - Mostly from what I remember of day 2. I really didn't like how that went down, will need to see how blahgo reacts to things, I suppose.
Battle Mage - I almost never think that he's protown
Twito - See Battle Mage
K-scope - I'm seeing those ties to theoper_COD as well.
Riverwind23 - Seems very quick to vote without providing much reason
scotmany12 - See BM, Twito.

No real read on:
The Fonz
Rand Althor
Panzerjager
DragonsofSummer
N9V~

Feels town:
Kelly Chen - Of course, based on the posts themselves, I have a feeling that I'd have a hard time ever not finding Kelly Chen townish.[/quote]
There are three people here that she says she generally finds to be scum, without stating outright that she thinks they're scum in this game.

It's like, so if a few of us decide to put votes on e.g. Twito, Jalyn might (or might not) be right there with us because she generally thinks Twito's scum.

13. OverTheUnder blahgo - I don't remember much, but this seems like possible scum.

15. KaleiÐoscøpe - Iffy. Today I'm glancing over his early posts and thinking town, although in the past I've interpreted scumminess to be there.

16. scotmany12 - can't remember. Quickly rereading some of his posts now, I think he is town.

17. Wartys Neryon Kelly Chen - I'm still alive.

19. ~N9V~ - I don't see a lot of good here.

20. theopor_COD - In a logical world I think he is obvious scum. At the moment he is helping to provide information however.

[Kelly Chen]

I'd like to know why Rand picked Riverwind especially.

If you have a living innocent I think you should reveal it, personally, as I don't want to gamble on having a doctor.

unvote

[Kelly Chen]

@Fonz

I don't agree that the possibility of naivete means that an innocent from Amb means nothing. Naive cops aren't half as common as sane ones.

@Amb

I strongly disagree with the suggestion that another cop should investigate Rand Althor. Not soon anyway.

I also don't understand how your post is a reply to the quoted text.

[Kelly Chen]

vote: Jalyn

[Kelly Chen]

I might have to do that.

In short: chibo, mole, Jalyn.

[Kelly Chen]

Panzer if he's scum (you are saying Rand would be scum, right? not just a joker?) then he wouldn't really have to guess alignment. There's probably only one scum group.

He also revealed that he investigd theopor_COD.

[Kelly Chen]

I also would not be excited about a Panzerjager investigation. I don't think he'd be playing like he has been if scum. And if he is scum I'd rather let him keep dancing until he slips up or something.

I wouldn't understand lynching BM over N9V.

[Kelly Chen]

Anyone know any completed games where scotmany or Amb were scum?

I currently cannot see voting for scotmany.

[Kelly Chen]

theopor_COD, I just glance over scotmany's early game posts, if nothing else (for example this one) and find it highly unlikely that he's scum with livingod.

Admittedly I am not paying close attention in this game. But I have a strong impression that scotmany is not scum. And I will at least repeat this whenever I see his name back on the table.

Now I would/will still be interested to look over a game where he was scum.

[Kelly Chen]

Can I have the reason for voting for livingod. I want to know why you people think he is scum.

Hell of a tactic for defending somebody, asking people to elaborate on why they're voting him.

Also scotmany's vote for Twito, which might be seen as a defense of livingod, comes when Twito's wagon is tied for 3rd largest (that is possibly wrong, I just glanced at the VC), and Twito is someone that scotmany had already been confrontational with, for good reason, at the beginning of the game. scotmany does not even particularly make a case against Twito; it is hard for me to see this as a defense of livingod.

scotmany's vote for theopor_COD (his post 11) seems totally reasonable.

Went ahead and

unvoted

him, why? Not a ton of reason. theopor_COD did offer an explanation. Twito unvoted after that.

Next scotmany votes Chibo. Good call. His reasoning seems silly and distinctly not scummy to me:

Think about it. Why else would you not want to post unless you are scum?

Two days later moves vote to Amb for post 351. It's easy to see why, though he doesn't elaborate at the time.

And he spends most the rest of his time voting Amb. As far as I can see.

I'll have more thoughts later. Conclusion for this post is that I do not see the scum agenda.

[Kelly Chen]

Dropping in.

Ok, I admit that I have yet to read the entirety of this thread. I read through about 35 pages, read the last three or four pages, reviewed the votecounts, and read posts in isolation for six of the remaining players. I will finish at some point when I've got the stomach for it. Here's the Cliffs version of my mental notes.

1. I think there is one scum group.
2. I think this scumgroup consists (at least) of: Theopor_COD, Twito, scotmany12, and ~N9V~.
3. If they are not all scum, at least two of them are.

Why? Scotmany's posts reek of scum. Frankly I'm shocked he hasn't been lynched yet. Twito's wild accusations are pure Twito, but not one has been spot on. Theopor_COD has been scummy all game. Now it looks like he's trying to salvage by making a bid for lead scumhunter. ~N9v~ is lurkerscum, has posted nothing useful. He seems to always be holding back his vote only to either cast it in useless places.

Oy. I don't like your list very much either, other than N9V which I think is reasonable.

theopor_COD has a claimed innocent investigation on him. But if you missed that then I can't blame you for finding him scummy.

Twito's accusations have never been spot on? I regard him as highly responsible for getting the godfather lynched.

Scotmany... Well, I've said what I think there.

[Kelly Chen]

Twito's actions wrt livingod do not look like bussing to me. There was a case against him.

It

is

possible that Twito bussed livingod, but I don't see any reason to think that is more likely. As far as Twito's other bets being off... I kind of expect that from him I'm afraid.

[Kelly Chen]

Of the leaders I favor N9V, but I feel bad about it because I haven't looked into him that closely.

I do feel presently that Jalyn is the most likely to come up scum.

I think Twito would be a ghastly lynch.

[Kelly Chen]

I don't see anything in Jalyn's posts that leads me to believe she's mafia. Her cases have all been pretty legit.

Well, you have Chibo and you have mole before her. Jalyn went after Lowell, who was town. And now that theopor_COD is probably town, Jalyn's efforts against him don't look particularly good to me. Gut at work here to some extent.

[Kelly Chen]

unvote, vote: N9V

[Kelly Chen]

At some point today I think.

[Kelly Chen]

Yeah I don't think DoS is that odd.

I don't see a reason to be confident that we have a doctor, and so I think we're better off learning cop results as we get them.

[Kelly Chen]

Well lets just say he wasn't an overly active player similar to Riverwind. None of the big guns have been taken out like a Kelly Chen/IH type of player.

I had a hunch I might get NKed since I stopped going after you. I guess I'm not scary enough these days.

BTW the reason I don't think DoS is that odd is because he didn't seem likely to be aligned with livingod.

[Kelly Chen]

No sex jokes please.

[Kelly Chen]

Who's "they" that could have been doc fishing?

My comment was a response to BM talking about the doc being spread thin.

[Kelly Chen]

Amb, K-scope, Kelly Chen, pay attention to Rand and Theo.

Confirm Vote:Panzerjager

You know what, I did have that thought. What if this is a vanilla game and the scum are trying out an awesome gambit.

Voting yourself eh? I didn't really think you were scum, but you really want us to see it for ourselves then huh?

[Kelly Chen]

vote: Yogurt

I do plan to

re

read and determine whether I shall use my THREE-SHOT DAYVIG* on Yogurt, Fonz, and TCS.

* - I may or may not have such an ability.

[Kelly Chen]

Guess who's rereading this game right now.

So this game maybe had 4 scum, since the town seems weak. Say it's four. Godfather is dead. Three scum left with 13 alive, we should be able to mislynch three times and still win.

So far I just reread scotmany. I like this guy as town though still.

Maybe I'll try to whip up a "not partners" diagram like I did for another game...

[Kelly Chen]

Panzerjager is an interesting read. He has had a lot of wrong suspicions it seems, but from his posts and thought processes I mostly feel he's town.

I think Panzerjager is absolutely not the lynch for today.


I don't know how to summarize my thoughts on scotmany. My notes on him are very short so I'll just copy/paste them:

scotmany:
most recently targeted Yogurt (criticism of Jalyn seems off), Panzer (jumpy), Amb (sticks to it despite innocent) and TCS.
These suspicions are pretty decent.

still suspicious of Amb and floats the bizarre suggestion that Rand could be naive.

scotmany refused to vote N9V. good.

he preferred to defend OTU due to him hammering. But he goes after TCS later (see above).

64th jun 1: scotmany wanted to lynch Amb, N9V, and Panzer. Bad perhaps in hindsight

may 29: his scum are Amb, DOS, BM, Panzer, Jalyn "on the outside." that is such a poor list.

prior to this I see Amb, N9V, Theo. Rand.
agreed with Panzer that Amb is scum.
"wow, way to quote your fucking role PM" to kardkraizee.
scotmany argued that N9V was scummier than Lowell. (both confd town though.)
unvoted theopor for little reason really. [which I see as a positive]
early votes are twito, refusal to vote livingod.


From the scotmany's suspicions I guess he doesn't look that good. But I still get a town feel from his thoughts and could not vote him today.

[Kelly Chen]

Read IH and OTU/blahgo/TCS.

I get a town feel from IH's thoughts but I feel I could be underestimating him. His scum picks don't look that fantastic.

I presently don't want to lynch IH.


OTU/blahgo/TCS... I have to retract my suspicion of that trio. I don't think OTU was very scummy at all. blahgo's couple of posts didn't seem scummy. And even TCS I am not finding to be that scummy. It really seems that he put effort into reading this game.

That TCS has not altered his scotmany and esp. Twito suspicions looks decent to me for some reason, particularly as I think his campaign against Twito can come to absolutely nothing and therefore might be based on an actual conviction. But then on the other hand that sort of thing can be a strategy to avoid having to take any more sides for the day.

But anyway I don't currently want to lynch TCS. I'm starting to realize I might have to revise earlier conclusions as I go through everybody...

[Kelly Chen]

I will have zilch to do at work tomorrow and will continue reading this game.

I have doubts after rereading Jalyn but I might have to chalk them up to her being a decent player. I still think Yogurt is a better lynch than Panzer.

[Kelly Chen]

Amb, I'm skeptical that you've found scum in this since why would scum accidentally send a PM to your name. Or during day at all?

[Kelly Chen]

hmm, but TCS would've gotten that info from the mod. Question is whether Amb would've thought to protect Cheesefan. If I were doc I totally would've considered protecting Cheesefan.

LOL at "failed to send in a choice" as a tracker result.

I have the thought that IH is scum due to that comment about there being scum power roles.

I guess there's another scum in Kscope, BM or even scotmany.

[Kelly Chen]

Panzer why are you voting TCS?

[Kelly Chen]

oh LOL. TCS is blahgo. He didn't track blahgo.

[Kelly Chen]

First off fonz, I was asking questions as I was rereading. I saw his third investigation.

Also, I'm going to come right out and say it. I don't think that lynching N9V is the play for today, but I think Rand invesgating him will tell us a great deal I think.

First off, if we're going to direct an investigation, this would be the time to do it. We need a lynch, and some extra info would be nice. We've probably still got a doc, so targetting rand will be useless. So scum can try to kill rand, but he still comes back with alignment info. Scum can kill N9V, but they just accomplish what we/I want. Granted, Rand should investigate whoever, but I'd say that N9V would not be a bad choice, and I would not mention it if I really was interested in N9V's input at this point.

Look who knows there's a framer

[Kelly Chen]

Can hardly follow when we have a tracker with a result...

[Kelly Chen]

Yes and yes. What's the confusion?

[Kelly Chen]

Why target blahgo?

[Kelly Chen]

ugh, investigated.

I have some inclination to believe Fonz... However I'm concerned that he may be scum selling out IH. I'm now like 90% sure IH is scum.

YB and alko targeting me strikes me as probable... blahgo seems like an out-of-nowhere choice until explained...

It is a bit odd that Fonz started targeting Amb the same night mafia decided to kill him. I really suck at finding "doc tells" but I wonder if anyone else saw them.

EWP: theopor, Fonz implied that he watched Amb and saw IH.

[Kelly Chen]

Watcher works more like a doc than a cop. You pick somebody you think might get knocked off and hope you catch the perp.

[Kelly Chen]

I think "Night Watchman" is more of a traditional role name, with "Watcher" being a shortened version I've only seen in the past year I'd guess.

I wouldn't put it past CDB to have made this game unbalanced in favor of town. However, we don't know what powers scum might still have... Presumably not a RB though.

It is interesting, maybe, how IH argued against 5 scum around page 40. I don't know if he really wanted town to believe there were only 4 scum or if that was misdirection or what.

EWP
I am guessing Fonz took that definition of Watcher from the wiki. I'm not sure where else he's heard of "Night Watchman" though? The wiki speaks of "Neighborhood Watch." These days his role is indeed what would be often called "Watcher."

Neighborhood_Watch

[Kelly Chen]

It comes from him saying "I think you can ascertain my result from the vote" after voting IH and with Amb dead overnight.

Notice he calls the four results "previous results."

[Kelly Chen]

Well, this may be obvious (but apparently maybe not), but Fonz' ability, if legit, is so useful to us that I don't think we can consider lynching him today.

He can single-handedly get both Rand and TCS into tomorrow by threatening to randomly watch one of them. And if Fonz is scum we could get a hint at this since his own survival into tomorrow would be rather fishy.

Assuming Fonz as town and IH as dead scum, we have 5 confirmed town and 4 unconfirmed. I would float the idea that Rand and TCS should target randomly among BM, Panzer, scot, and Kscope.

However, if we guess there are two scum in that group (and I would) then we can already go back and look and see who is un/likely to be scum with each other. I plan to look into that todayish...

I actually think all four of the unconfirmed should claim today. I can't imagine we have anyone that needs to be protected substantially more than Rand or TCS.

Thoughts on this BM?

[Kelly Chen]

Sorry what? yb (as in yellowbounder) is indeed a predecessor of Fonz.

I am assuming that when he targeted blahgo, Rand had not claimed yet. I will have to look into that. Assuming that to be the case, when he watched Rand he would've seen Amb acting on but not killing Rand. So within the story it makes sense that Fonz targeted Amb.

What is odd is that mafia also went for Amb that night. I don't off the top of my head remember when Rand revealed that Amb was innocent though.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm saying at least 5, based on how much power the town has. I can't really think of what kind of ridiculous power 4 scum would have to have for this to be balanced.

It really hurts my brain though to try to see two scum among Panzer, BM, scotmany, and Kscope.

[Kelly Chen]

scotmany could use prod.

[Kelly Chen]

Battle Mage = Stoofer alt?

I am very disappointed in you Stoofer.

[Kelly Chen]

I hope to god TCS didn't track Fonz.

[Kelly Chen]

Have to remember to check who Fonz went after and go back and reread IH remembering that he was not scum.

I wish I had used my triple daykill move since it would've killed two scum for a tracker.

[Kelly Chen]

This is surely lylo; maybe we want to be a little careful with our votes.

I think Sunday I will have time to look into this again.

I'm nervous that it seems theopor_COD will have to be replaced by god knows who, unless this game ends really swiftly.

[Kelly Chen]

Reading Fonz' posts I feel he was really going for Panzer while trying to appear to strongly suspect BM as well.

I do need to reread Panzer, but I don't have the impression that he has been such a bad player that scum could afford to dump him for brownie points.

Atm not likely to vote Panzer. I have gradually been getting used to the idea that I might be wrong about scotmany being town.

In all my partial rereads I think I've actually never tried rereading BM, so that should be interesting.

I don't have much to say about Scope at the moment... theopor's thoughts ring true to me, but it'd be better to get these impressions first-hand...

[Kelly Chen]

Reading BM I am not overly convinced that he's got a scum agenda. His early posts do strike me as quite awful. But he has said plenty of small things that do not seem right to me if he's scum.

A small thing: On page 79 BM bothers to post "woah. didn't Fonz say that he saw IH commit a kill? Well i think him coming up VANILLA puts pay to that." And Fonz replied to this saying no shit. I'm having trouble imagining BM saying this as scum, even planning ahead of time to say this as scum. And I can't explain why, but I don't see Fonz responding that way to BM (or at all) if they were partners.

Note Scope and (especially) BM disinclined to believe Fonz' claim. Note also Panzer voting TCS apparently as a response to his claimed result on Fonz. That would be pretty ballsy of Panzer if he knew Fonz was scum, wouldn't it?

I believe the TCS-tracking-Fonz episode has distracted us from page 75. This page seems incredibly damning to scotmany. Amb claimed he'd gotten a PM from scotmany, which scotmany denied. Amb said he'd sent a screenshot to the mod; scotmany still denied. Before the mod could say anything one way or another, scotmany hammered and ended the day.

And then Amb turned up dead. I could see this as a frame job of scotmany, but why bother? It seems more likely to me that the scum expected Amb to be practically confirmed when a lynched scotmany came up scum.

It's also interesting to see that Fonz didn't claim he watched Amb for this reason; he watched Amb because he previously watched Rand.

Basically I believe scotmany needs to be lynched for LAL if nothing else, even if the other details are inconclusive...

And I'm really starting to think he might be the only scum left. Shorting scum a member in exchange for a framer seems like a decision someone might make (although I would really disagree with it).

I'll continue reading...

[Kelly Chen]

I have to shrug at it (Fonz' response). I would suggest that the effect of it was to undermine me, primarily. Also the more I defend scotmany (as scum) the more useful I might be in the future as a lynch target, if scotmany were to die.

I just read Kscope and scotmany again. I also glanced at scotmany in Mafia 62, but I don't feel I got much out of that.

At this point Kscope feels somewhat town. I feel he's given us rather little to work with, but he's pretty bold about it. There are definitely moments where he seems town, and no particular reason (other than some probably bad suspicions) to think he's scum.

I think in general scotmany strikes me as a little more aggressive, shows a little more initiative, than I would expect from scum, and than I believe I see in Mafia 62.

On Panzer I don't think I saw the case at all. Pretty good feel from him. I am willing to bet the game on him being town, really.

(Side note: Panzer invited an investigation on himself and on BM.)

Now scotmany... Due to the LAL thing, I feel we are going to look very, very stupid if we lose the game because we didn't lynch him. Amb was town and he claimed he sent off a screenshot.

EDIT: saw theopor_COD's last post as I finish this.

I was a little worried that scotmany's Panzer vote here was misdirection (under the assumption that he himself would not be credible to us, or that Panzer could be lynched and make scotmany look better), but it doesn't seem that scotmany going after Panzer is quite a new thing.

I don't think I see what you're saying, theopor, about scotmany "after prompting is now suspicious of BM".

[Kelly Chen]

BM I'd love your thoughts on Panzer and scotmany. TIA

[Kelly Chen]

If Panzer is scum by process of elimination, then I need to know who his partner is, particularly since it's possible we've only got one more scum.

[Kelly Chen]

Lack of Panzer post is distressing.

[Kelly Chen]

scotmany, would you agree that you (you personally) must be very sure there are two more scum, for it to make sense for you to want to vote Panzer by process of elimination?

[Kelly Chen]

I'm glad to hear it and eagerly await your output.

[Kelly Chen]

What's the problem Panzer?

[Kelly Chen]

Well, I'll assume that's the best answer I'll get...

vote: scotmany

[Kelly Chen]

If I don't vote you I run the risk of looking extremely stupid if you endgame me. Maybe Amb did totally lie and bluff and

try to bring the mod into it

but that is not the safe bet.

Panzer looks town because of the way scum seemed to aggressively go after him. As far as just his overall play, the traits that I found to be town about you Panzer seems to have had in higher doses. It is really hard for me to imagine scum playing like Panzer did.

[Kelly Chen]

Comments

The idea that Scope's behavior wrt livingod was bussing seems like a lot of WIFOM to me. It did ring bells for me when Scope suggested livingod should claim, which could look like a tip for livingod if Scope hadn't already decided to ditch him. I don't think I see it.

Day 2 begins. K-Scope starts by joining a BW on me, with absolutely no explanation. Presumably looking for a scapegoat after the day before.

I think it was clear he had a reason, and in time it was clear what the reason was.

Post 245-K-Scope again deliberately refrains from recognising the concept of bussing-suggesting that his pressure on Livingod confirmed him as protown. In the same post, he BW’s Theo, with, wait for it, NO reason given. :p

BTW, I don't find it scummy when no reason is given for a vote, especially if a reason can be imagined... On the contrary I find your same-page same-person vote in 234 to be rather scummy.

I don't get anything town or scum from Scope's vote or comment here.

Post 446, K-Scope proves that OMGUS really is his sole purpose in this game.

Well, I'm not sure what's going on. If I read Scope's earliest posts wrt Twito, I can take Scope as not especially suspecting Twito so much as attacking him for his reason for suspecting him. However if I go with that, it is distressing that I don't feel I can tell when Scope's votes are serious.

I am looking at Scope's 15 (where he asks Twito to admit that he is scum with yellowbounder and BM), 27 (where he says all he's attacked are livingod, BM, and Twito), and 32 (where he says the scum are BM, Twito, and Cheesefan). Cheesefan is back in e.g. his post 40.

It's interesting that 27 doesn't include yellowbounder.

The scum list in 32 seems pretty poor to me; the case against Twito was what, that he was hypocritical in his suspicions of Scope? And how likely is it that Cheesefan would be scum with BM?

Post 448, K-Scope hints that the mafia shouldn’t be seeking a second scum-lynch in a row. This seems to be consistent with the above picture.

I don't understand this point at all.

Next morning, Lowell has been killed. A whole host of reasons link this to K-Scope. Perhaps his reason for not joining the Lowell wagon was that he couldn’t validate with enough reason-making NKing him the optimum choice. Or, more likely, his scumbuddies were pissed off that he cost them a lynch, and killed Lowell anyway.

I can't explain that NK at all. I guess scum felt that it would be effective in setting somebody up, but I don't know who.

Post 846-Al_Ko (scum) lies to protect K-Scope, from a reasonably quick wagon at the start of the day. Later he changes his tune completely, and puts further pressure on K-Scope. Note, no vote yet though.

How did alko lie? I think alko asking this question is more likely if Scope is town than if he's scum.

Something else of note, is that Scotmany also comes to K-Scopes defence, stating that the scum are trying to set him up.

Yes, I think that could well be a slip of scotmany's. I've made the error myself as scum of trying to let the town in on the kill rationale.

Again Al_Ko scum tries to subtly derail the K-Scope wagon.

Huh? alko is explaining to scotmany what the argument against Scope was. ...I guess you mean 860. Hm. That's a bit of an obvious defense I think... I find it easier to think that Alko posted that bit of drivel just to get a post in...

K-Scopes response to his BW is that he DIDN’T REALISE THAT IF WE DIDN’T GET A MAJORITY, WE WOULDN’T LYNCH. I mean, COME ON! K-Scope had been playing Mafia here for longer than me, and I think a newb who has been here a week realises what happens at a deadline.
Oh and he OMGUS votes me. Lol

Actually it is often the case that there is reduced majority to lynch at deadline.

Post 886-K-Scope backtracks, stating that he voluntarily took us to No-Lynch bcause he didn’t want to hammer Lowell.

That post doesn't seem to say that.

Interesting to note here that with 7 votes on him (prev page VC), no scum there except possibly BM and Panzer.

8 posts later, he changes his story again, back to the ‘I don’t know how a deadline works’ BS.

Actually in 894 the fact that he points out he didn't know how it worked is the expected response to theopor_COD criticizing the uselessness of his vote, so at least Scope was consistent.

K-Scope then changes his 3rd suspect from Cheesefan to Panzer.
Post 1007 by Panzer is an absolute gem. If you don’t reread anything else, you should read that.

Ok this is what it says:

Theo, I never unvoted K-scope so that is false information. I also don't see where you get K-scope is town, I am suspicious of you and think you re misinterpreting things. I believe his talk on the LG wagon was a distancing tactic and a fall back plan if he couldn't misdirect the lynch. An oppurtunity never arrived. Yes, this falls under ballsy. Notice how he immediately jumped on BM and ignored Scotmany when they were doing the exact same thing and scotmany was being far more scummy about it and far more hardcore about it. He still hasn't gotten off BM's case and has not mentioned scotmany in any of his post although a lot of us feel Scotmany is scum. He also really hasn't posted anything of content just hating BM and trying to direct attention toward N9V when he was under fire. The fact you put this guy in your definite town group is absurd. He has been completely and utterly unhelpful to the town. Right now I am thinking you, K-scope, and Scot are all scum partners. I would like a Unvote, Vote:Theo, Major FoS: K-Scope and Scotmany

So what do you feel we should take from this BM? I at least would think that Scope-Panzer is an unlikely scum pair.

Page 44-Al Ko again provides an excuse for K-Scopes actions on the previous day, using a WIFOM argument.

I don't think that was really a WIFOM argument, that Scope could just have not posted to get a no lynch.

I think alko's defense of Scope seems awfully blatant if they're partners, considering how lazily alko seemed to play...

Ah here’s the bit where we lost a lot of posts due to the site going down.

Theo BWs K-Scope, before K-Scope selfvotes, with the ‘giving up’ scumtell.

In this case I didn't take this as a scumtell.

Anyway, what's with your 1101 vote for Rand instead of Scope?

Just as the K-Scope bandwagon increases to the point of being the dominant one, Al Ko requests replacement. I don’t blame him. If I was Al Ko at that point, already a GF down, and with another buddy about to be lynched, its not looking good.
Of course its possible that this is merely a coincidence. But I don’t think so.

Hmm, the douchebag scumtell seems a little uncharitable; I'd be more inclined to blame it on the poor health of the game.

Post 1171 is a good one to reference aswell. K-Scopes bandwagon is still growing at this point, and Al Ko (despite having just requested replacement) takes one more stab at derailing the wagon. I recommend you read the post for yourself. Basically he tried his hardest to derail the Scope wagon, while pushing a lynch on N9V.

I read this post and come to the opposite conclusion. If you're quitting the game out of disillusionment why would you blatantly defend your scumpal whom you're already leaving for dead in quitting.

Perhaps another possibility is that the framer had targeted Scope, and so the scum hoped to waste a different lynch on him as well as a cop investigation. This is still a pretty iffy interpretation though...

Interesting to note that Jalyn lumps scotmany with BM and Twito as someone that she never feels is protown. The straightforward interpretation is that she wanted to keep her options open on scotmany, which should not make sense if they're partners.

The Fonz replaces Al Ko, and seems to take a slightly different stance towards him. Of the 3 lynch candidates for the day, Fonz comments in favour of Theo, and casts suspicion onto K-Scope and N9V. Possibly a towntell for K-Scope, only it should be noted, that despite picking apart K-Scopes posts, Fonz never votes for him. Rather he joins the N9V wagon, thus ensuring that K-Scope was not lynched.
No Lynch occurs.

I don't think this is really a town tell for Scope; Fonz seemed to take the possibly profitable position of suspecting Scope, but simultaneously say he prefers to lynch N9V.

Fonz 1195 is very weird, telling Amb that if his next post does not contain a case against scotmany, he will be very suspicious. Fonz says he hasn't seen a case against scotmany.

1592-K-Scope once again shows his opportunism, and evident desperation to get some mislynches.

This isn't really helpful... He says we need to "get over this talking and lynch a bitch" to avoid another NL. To be scummy I'd expect he would try to accomplish the "mislynch" in a way that could draw less attention to himself.

Interesting to see Amb's argument here (p65) that Panzer is scum with scotmany.

Post 1636-Scope makes some unfathomable comment about me and Kelly. I think he’s trying to infer that we are both scum, but I guess he’ll have to explain that himself.

Wtf? How do you get that out of "LOL, it seems today is "Help your fellow mafiate" day"?

I'm not saying I understand it either, but I don't see where you get your explanation.

Then Fonz appears, to say that he would accept a Scot-lynch, but would prefer a Panzer/BM lynch. Completely ignored K-Scope who was his top suspect not long before.

I can take this post (1710) as a defense of scotmany.

And then he responds to you to post several screenfuls of PBPA against Panzer. At the end he apologizes for not having enough stamina left to analyze BM. Looks bad for BM. Did Fonz ever get back to this task...? Looks like 1717 is that analysis, and it doesn't seem to suspect BM too heavily. I believe you didn't respond to it at all; in the post where you could have, you instead argued with Panzer.

K-Scope then pops up to try and derail the growing Panzer wagon. YB doesn’t vote Panzer immediately, which he did do with N9V. Could indicate that either YB actually learnt from his mistakes, or perhaps that he doesn’t want to bus another buddy.

I'm not willing to take much from YB's actions...

1760: BM defends Yogurt by saying he thinks we're past the point of lynching lurkers. 1767: Asks for a prod on YB, in order to know whether it's deliberate lurking.

1787 interesting that scotmany is ok with putting Yogurt as his top suspicion.

1804: Fonz is reluctant to bus YB when Panzer still seems like a viable lynch. That makes no f$%ing sense if he's scum with Panzer.

Fonz shouldn't be blind to the fact that YB was playing like total crap; the fact that he had a framing ability couldn't offset this.

1810: scotmany rather scummily says:
"Panzer is frightening me right now. I'm really not sure if he is a frustrated townie or a mafia trying to pull a gambit."

1835: BM finally gives in a little bit to the YB wagon:
"thats exactly what you said in your last post...
I know i haven't got around to my analysis yet, but you appear to have enough time to post random fluff.
will a pressure vote help?
Vote: YB"

You kind of reek during this wagon BM.

Meanwhile K-Scope continues to lurk, and is one of the only players not to comment atall on YB-scum. When he does show up, it is only to try pathetically to derail the YB wagon, and lynch me instead.

In fact his effort is so pathetic one wonders why, if he were scum, he wouldn't just take some credit for bussing YB.

Post 1888-K-Scope admits again that his sole purpose in the game (aside from BWing relentlessly) is to play for consistency points.

I do not understand post 1888.

Only when The Fonz claims, does K-Scope react, and when I say react, I mean vote for him immediately. Lol
This could well be because he didn’t think Fonz would be believed-as at the time, Kelly had already voiced doubts over it.

Well, I had just asked him why he targeted blahgo. Your interpretation is possible though.

Page 78-IH gets lynched. In K-Scopes favour, he didn’t join the wagon on IH, keeping his vote on Fonz. Of course, he only posted twice during the course of the day, so its possible that he didn’t notice.
Both myself and K-Scope hop onto the Fonz wagon, the latter with no reason given, though to be fair, it was pretty obvious.
However, in post 1970, he again makes it clear that he wants to get the lynch over with quickly. Sound familiar? It’s the exact same thing he said when bussing Livingod!

So you think that when Scope busses his scum partners he makes a point of wanting to get the lynch over with quickly? You don't think that he expressed a similar attitude for other lynches?

Post 1979-K-Scope clearly doesn’t care who dies as long as it isn’t him.

His stances here do not seem that much less complicated than yours. I do not really know how you feel about Panzer and scotmany.

Post 2017- K-Scope reiterates this selfish view, expressing the benefits of another mislynch, which pretty much confirms my view that we are in LyLo.
In the next post he changes his view, in an attempt to fit in with the views of Theo (confirmed town). Not only that, but his arguments backing his views are gradually making less and less sense. Lol

Not really a change of view since it doesn't involve moving his vote from BM... Rather it is more reason to keep it there.

Post 2032 pretty much sums K-Scope up. His case on me amounts to 2 words: “Defended Godfather”. I explained why this reason is total BS 2 posts afterwards fyi.

Well, I agree with this. It may be a valid reason but I think it is a shallow reading of

everything

you've done.

Then the funny part. He accuses me of ‘Stalling, so I can fit in with the views of others’. Hilariously ironic, seeing as he just did the same thing with Theo.

It may be funny but irony isn't a scumtell.

Interesting that he considers me to be the scummiest person, yet he is happy to lynch Scot today, when we are at LyLo. This too wreaks of scumminess.

Perhaps, but I don't think BM is likely to receive many votes.

I may need a translator for post 2050, but I think K-Scope is saying that he doesn’t want to elaborate on his suspicions…

I think he is saying that it wouldn't even be highly useful for us to know why he suspects people.

Although, it would make me feel better about Scope if I felt his thought process was more transparent.

His reasoning for choosing Scot-scum over Panzer-scum in post 2060 is BS.

It's not BS, although it sounds simplistic.

Anyway, that’s my analysis of K-Scope. I’ll admit, there are some weaknesses in there. I’d like to think I’ve done a fairly balanced analysis of him. However, I’m ever confident that he is scum. That’s not to say he’s the only player I’m suspicious of. However, we are almost certainly at LyLo today, and letting K-Scope survive would be idiotic…

Thanks for this analysis.

Something else i will note however, is K-Scopes attitude towards Panzer and Scot. I'm finding it very hard to see which of those 2 could be his scumbuddy. Still, i guess we'll deal with that tomorrow.

Meditate on post 2060, as well as my bolded line above.

[Kelly Chen]

In conclusion...

After all that I'm pretty torn as to what we should do if we lynch scotmany as

town

, and the game isn't over.

[Kelly Chen]

Feel free to lay a vote down Panzer

[Kelly Chen]

Why would that be good for the town? Are you so convinced there's just one scum left?

[Kelly Chen]

@#$%
go town

[Kelly Chen]

Good job theopor. I'm really not sure I would've made the right decision.

[Kelly Chen]

LOL

In Mafia 59, Battle Mage was town and was double-scum-killed Night 6.

I feel that I did a decent job in this game other than slacking off for long periods of time. By all rights theopor_COD and scotmany

should

have been scum. And my earlier protown read on scotmany was actually correct. I feel BM was the only scum that totally escaped me...

Thanks for taking over this game, Stoofer.