Mafia 61: No Theme - Game over!

[Seol]

patrick will confirm in a moment im sure but i'm replacing spectrumvoid.

there are a hundred pages to read here, i've reads this page only. can someone summarise the important facts?

tia

[Seol]

Hi Seol. Could you claim again, please? Preferably before finishing your read.

I've barely started my read (I'm on vacation at the moment and have been out the last two days) but my role is backup roleblocker (activated). Have I claimed results yet?

[Seol]

Agree that Lowell and Scotsmany both need to die. One lynch one vig right?

vote: scotsmany

to put him at 4, ie -2.

[Seol]

well i'm still alive. lol
As is my protection target.

BM

Why did you decide against protecting an investigative role

again?

[Seol]

well i'm still alive. lol
As is my protection target.

BM

Why did you decide against protecting an investigative role

again?

lol i've been protecting investigative roles every night up until now. Amazingly, i felt there were more valuable people to be protected. Significantly people who werent high on my suspect list.

Are you counting Rand as an investigative role? Or MoS after the SK is dead? Because neither can really tell us anything useful compared to the tracker, or the other dead claimed tracker you didn't protect, or the dead claimed gunsmith you didn't protect.

It's almost as if you didn't want them alive...

[Seol]

lol i had a slight inkling this might happen. If it matters, i protected TCS last night. It was a toss up between him and Rand, but i figured Rand probably wasnt as useful anymore. I thought a Vig who i believed was more valuable than a Tracker that i really didnt believe.

That's actually a fair call (unlike some of the previous choices).

And its frigging obvious why i'm still alive-the scum know that i generally slip up as Doc where i dont know who to protect. A nice idea might have been for you to have TOLD ME who to bloody protect, after you realised that i might not get it right.

No, that wouldn't have been a nice idea at all. Directing the doc is a really bad idea.

Its also pretty damn obvious WHO the mafia member who has chosen not to NK me is, because its the one individual here who had prior knowledge of my poor play as a power role. Unfortunately, its the one player who has come in defending me

I really don't like these appeals to emotion. In case it's genuine, I'll start a Basic Advice for Power Roles thread in MD after the game and we can discuss how to make effective nightchoices.

But before you blame me for not protecting every kill on every night, you should note that Scot-SK didnt manage his NK every night. Now, this might be stupid, but i'd like to assume that it might just be because he was blocked. Maybe by a Doc.

Or it could be that he was a succession of inactive players. On that subject,

mod: could you please note the previous players in a role where someone replaced in for the dead as well as the living?

[Seol]

if its all the same, id rather you didnt start a thread about me in MD. They tend to end up as flamefest. After the game, we can discuss via pm if you like.

That's understandable, but it wasn't going to be about you, it's just inspiration to write a Mafia essay and get some discussion up. I wasn't going to mention you or this game.

I don't think I did confirm targets, they are:

Night 1: Not activated
Night 2: No choice (mod told me spectrumvoid chose to do nothing, which doesn't quite gel with what spectrumvoid said)
Night 3: Block DGB
Night 4: Block theopor
Night 5: Block Lowell

[Seol]

mod: could you please note the previous players in a role where someone replaced in for the dead as well as the living?

I've changed the layout slightly to include this information.

Thanks, much appreciated!

[Seol]

The plan looks sound to me.

[Seol]

hold on a sec. Your plan has some very definable holes. One is your misconstruing of who can actually be deemed as CONFIRMED innocents.
As far as i'm concerned, MoS is not confirmed innocent. I'm sure he'll agree, that, from a practical point of view, he could still potentially be scum. You wonder why i have issues knowing who to protect, when i'm getting fed lies?

He didn't actually call MoS confirmed. I read it as he considers MoS to be "highly likely innocent", and if I'm reading him right, although there isn't any specific rolebased information to support that, I agree with him. Sometimes you end up in situations where you can't clear everyone, and then you have to make judgments. This seems like a reasonable judgment to me.

Now, i'd also like to tackle this issue of me being a suspect. Now, i'm no more confirmed than MoS is, but even so, i'd like to think you have more sense than to Vig a claimed doc.

Are you arguing you shouldn't be a suspect because you've claimed doc?

And last but not least, why do you think Jalyn and Theo are our last two scum? Because they havent claimed? You have to be kidding me...
Why not do something really revelationary, and ask them to claim!?

Firstly they have both claimed (vanilla townie), and secondly the point of this plan is not that TCS is sure they are the last two scum, but this allows us the best chance of covering all the likely possibiities.

fyi, i believe Seol now. Either he is clever scum who bothered to read the thread and corroborate his story with others, or he is genuinely an RB. His story coincides with that of confirmed town CTD at least, so i think that is some confirmation.

That's true, I'm now at least confirmed as having targetted theopor with a non-lethal action, which is about as good a level of confirmation as we have on anyone at the moment.

[Seol]

hold on a sec. Your plan has some very definable holes. One is your misconstruing of who can actually be deemed as CONFIRMED innocents.
As far as i'm concerned, MoS is not confirmed innocent. I'm sure he'll agree, that, from a practical point of view, he could still potentially be scum. You wonder why i have issues knowing who to protect, when i'm getting fed lies?

He didn't actually call MoS confirmed. I read it as he considers MoS to be "highly likely innocent", and if I'm reading him right, although there isn't any specific rolebased information to support that, I agree with him. Sometimes you end up in situations where you can't clear everyone, and then you have to make judgments. This seems like a reasonable judgment to me.

It is just that though-a Judgement. I certainly found it confusing, and i'm sure others might have done, to find somebody who's affiliation was NOT certain, to be placed in a group which distinctly implied that they were CERTAIN town.

As this wasn't made clear, it is misrepresentation.

Do you think TCS is trying to manipulate the town?

Now, i'd also like to tackle this issue of me being a suspect. Now, i'm no more confirmed than MoS is, but even so, i'd like to think you have more sense than to Vig a claimed doc.

Are you arguing you shouldn't be a suspect because you've claimed doc?

No lol. I'm pointing out that Vigging me is idiotic. If you really felt i was scum, you would be better off tackling the issue during the day, when somebody can still talk sense into you.

We are tackling the issue during the day. We are discussing the plan. I'm happy to hear your arguments, but I don't think you appreciate what the thought process behind TCS' plan is. Either that, or you're scum flailing for a counterargument using arguments that aren't really appropriate for the situation because they're all you can think of (which, to be honest, is how I read the situation).

And last but not least, why do you think Jalyn and Theo are our last two scum? Because they havent claimed? You have to be kidding me...
Why not do something really revelationary, and ask them to claim!?

Firstly they have both claimed (vanilla townie), and secondly the point of this plan is not that TCS is sure they are the last two scum, but this allows us the best chance of covering all the likely possibiities.

As far as i'm concerned, thats not a reason atall. Its dependant on trusting all power role claims we have heard so far-which just sounds presumptious to me.

Well, we know the following for sure:

There is a vigilante, TCS has claimed vigilante and demonstrated the ability to kill, nobody has counterclaimed vigilante. That seems like a good reason to trust TCS.
Rand has claimed criminologist and a proven town tracker has tracked him targetting the dead person he claimed to target. That seems like a good reason to trust Rand.
I have claimed backup roleblocker and a proven town tracker has verified I targetted the person I claimed to with a demonstrated non-lethal ability. I think that is a good reason to trust me however you can make your own mind up about that.

MoS does not have the same level of confirmation, but I trust him vastly more than you, theopor or jalyn.

This plan is not based on strong cases against you, Jalyn or theopor. It's based on strong cases

for

everyone else. Under such circumstances, an elimination plan is solid. Of the three of you, it is sensible to kill you last.

However, I would be very interested in hearing your idea.

[Seol]

You are most probably town, but if it comes to it, you could very easily be scum. All it would require is a bit of thinking, and the ability to read the thread before claiming. Not completely impossible at least.

And Crashtextdummie proved SV targetted theopor, after spectrumvoid claimed to have targetted theopor. That's the bit that confirms my ability. That happened before I replaced in (apart that CTD's alignment was revealed after I replaced), and has nothing to do with how I handled the claim.

Apart from that you raise some perfectly valid points. I look forward to reading your case on MoS, and I've got some ideas of how to expand the plans now but again would like to hear yours first.

I will also back off and allow TCS to respond to you, although I must say I would be very surprised if he would act as a loose cannon - this is a matter of strategic planning for the whole town to discuss, not a question of convincing one individual.

[Seol]

I want to hear your case on MoS. Cause I want to hear precisely how you think that MoS claiming cop to get acfan to give up doesn't clear him. I don't care how bad of a scum acfan is, and he's the worst, you can't convince me that he thought a

scumbuddy

was really a cop. The only situation in which this would make any rational sense is if it was preplanned, or acfan is the dumbest person alive.

Cite exactly where this happened. Because, reading through, I don't see MoS doing anything like that - but then, I could have misread.

BM, please don't quote the entire post at the bottom of your posts, it's really annoying to rread and doesn't add anything. If you're responding to specific points it's fine, but otherwise either just reply or delete the original.

[Seol]

TCS: Gotcha. I disagree that MoS claimed cop to get acfan to give up (that's what made me go "huh?")- it was fortuitous bad play on acfan's part rather than planned good play on MoS's, but either way it means they're very unlikely to be on the same side.

Also your plan is pretty much the same plan that occurred to me. Any advances?

there is absolutely no difference to quoting at the bottom of the post as there is to quoting at the top. I will do whichever feels good at the time.

Quoting the entire post at the top is pointless too, but less irritating as then at least you read the comments which lead to your response before your response, rather than after. I'm not saying you

have

to do it, just that it would make your posts easier and more pleasant to read.

[Seol]

All this plan needs to work is the agreement of myself, TCS and BM, so...

vote: Jalyn

.

[Seol]

I blocked theopor.

So, lynch one and vig the other one if necessary.

vote: MoS

.

[Seol]

why did you block Theo when you knew that TCS was going to Vig him?
Wouldnt it have been wiser to block MoS, who has claimed an ability which is no longer of value to us, and who is still under suspicion?

BM

I had already decided to block one of theopor and MoS (as per the plan). Yes, on reflection it would have been wiser to block MoS, but I didn't really think about it - we're in redux now and I just want to get this finished.

[Seol]

Well, i'm still confident that MoS is our final scumbag. But IF that isnt the case, i have a good plan for tonight.
Seol, you Roleblock me. TCS you Vig Seol.
That means, if Seol is scum, either me or TCS will survive and win.
If i was scum, I wouldnt be able to kill, and so the game would end as a tie.
However, as i'm not scum, this is irrelevant.

BM

So (assuming MoS isn't scum) we get a tie by this plan as opposed to the win we get otherwise. I don't think so.

[Seol]

why did you block Theo when you knew that TCS was going to Vig him?
Wouldnt it have been wiser to block MoS, who has claimed an ability which is no longer of value to us, and who is still under suspicion?

In fact: Why didn't you know I didn't block MoS immediately? Why weren't you surprised there was a second kill?

Because you knew that the Mafia kill wasn't being prevented either way, because you were taking it.

unvote, vote: BM

[Seol]

OK.

unvote, vote: MoS

.

[Seol]

Well, shows what I know. Yay everyone else!

[Seol]

why did you block Theo when you knew that TCS was going to Vig him?
Wouldnt it have been wiser to block MoS, who has claimed an ability which is no longer of value to us, and who is still under suspicion?

In fact: Why didn't you know I didn't block MoS immediately? Why weren't you surprised there was a second kill?

Because you knew that the Mafia kill wasn't being prevented either way, because you were taking it.

unvote, vote: BM

rofl. ur dumb.

I was highly suspicious of you for - well, ages. And yes, I was wrong. To be honest I wasn't doing much more than going through the motions here.

I was surprised nobody called me on potentially being a scum roleblocker, though.

[Seol]

I was surprised nobody called me on potentially being a scum roleblocker, though.

I thought this would be the only thing MoS could try. The fact that all the dead mafiosos were turning up as "mafia" rather than "mafia goon" usually hints at a vanilla mafia though. I was expecting you to roleblock MoS as the best choice, but it turned out not to matter.

Yeah, that was just flat-out wrong, there's no reason not to block MoS there - but like I said, I just wanted the game to be over then. Reading through 96 pages and playing for three leads to disillusionment with the game and very little feeling of investment or involvement. But hey, at least I helped get the damn thing closed.

[Seol]

MoS never claimed an investigation result! He joked about it, and ac1983 misread it as a bussing attempt - it should never have been held against MoS.

[Seol]

Wow, that's incredible. acfan has got to be the worst scum ever. :\

Sorry I didn't believe you, BM, but, well, I have reason to.

Crazy that Rand made up that result. Wow.

Thats not the response i was hoping for. I was hoping for more of a 'now i realise that you aren't TOTALLY shit at scumhunting, i might pay more heed to you in the future'.

Patience, respect will come in time. You can't just demand it.

Also, sounding right often seems to be more useful than being right...