New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!

[Persivul]

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

[Persivul]

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

Oh you...

...sob? ...mf?

You're not busing Ircher hard, are you?

I never play larges. What are the typical ratios?

[Persivul]

BUSSED SO HARD!

That should be your tag line. Want me to petition the title fairy?

[Persivul]

I would love you too, it would be great. Awesome job in that game by the way.
Also, back to this game. Why am I scum?

ETL, if she's town, has good reads in my limited experience with her, so partial sheep, partial RVS (when I replace in I allow myself an RVS vote even though RVS is over).

[Persivul]

Support shotty here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7931675

[Persivul]

Fair enough, but trust me on this Ircher is scum

Why...I find it hard to believe you found scum so early.

[Persivul]

I was in shotty's most recent scum game, and this doesn't feel the same. In that game, he largely commented on other player's posts about other players, i.e. tried to appear active without really pushing anyone. In this game he's pushing.

[Persivul]

I'm going to throw this out there and let it marinate. See how well it ages.

magna is scum.

Something about his ISO bothers me. He wrote a lot to just agree with two short posts voting for TBG. He's written a lot about a LOT, but somehow not much. Could be this is just the way he is, but he's looking a little "coachy" to me.

Something that pinged me on magna:

26 - to zakk: "Of course it isn’t real.

Have you ever played with Shotty before?

"

44 - "@zakk – Hey answer my question …"

232 - "@zakk – Answer my question from 26 in your next post or I’m voting you and channeling Kuribo to get your lynch pushed through today."

The question seems clearly rhetorical to me. If I were zakk I likely wouldn't have addressed it either. 232 is way overblown.

[Persivul]

VOTE: magna

[Persivul]

SethYazura, one of the players in the game.

[Persivul]

I'm wondering how people have opinions on Nos when she's said maybe 15 words.

[Persivul]

Spoiler: NY 195 - D1 Copper ISO MAY 21

1. 29 - Willing to be lynched if I'm scum -

I think this is a somewhat risky statement to make. As either alignment, it strongly suggests both Copper & I are not both anti-town. I'm leaning town here though. -

+1 Point

2. 159 -

In the @Titus section: a) No, but I would change as soon as I got a scumread. Maybe unvote if the RVSed player is town imo. b) Ok. c) His anakysis was valid imo. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I get probably town reads from this post. It seems like a decent response to me. -

+2 Points

3. 169 - Votes Nos in 167 because of attacking me for statistics not town mindset -

I dunno.... I feel that of all the things Copper could have chosen, this just feels.... Well, this just feels nitpickey. Not sure if this is town or scum really...... -

0 Points

4. 179 -

When I look at the last few posts of Copper, I can't but help think that Copper is very skilled in rhetoric. He's like Cassius who turned the crowd against Brutus in the William Shakespearean play

The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

. I just cannot help thinking he's trying to manipulate people with his rhetorical skills. -

0 Points

5. 318 - Coming around on a scumread on me -

I fundamentally disagree with your approach here, and it really reads more as "I should change my read, so I can lynch him if necessary." Srry, but that's the motive I saw there. -

-2 Points

6.

It perplexes me as to why Copper decided to keep his vote on Nosferatu. Has Nos really struck your radar so much? If so, I think you need to expound on your earlier explanation for voting Nos. -

-1 Point

Total Score: 0 points
Average Score: 0 (0 / 6)
Final Score: -0.5 (In range of -6 to 6; includes bias score of -0.5)

I mean... what?

What's there not to get?

The

reasons

for the numbers.

Why

is the particular post positive or negative?

Why

is the particular post weighted at 1, or 2, or 3?

The numbers aren't that important for you guys as it will be for me later.

What will you get from them later? Also, how do you know that you'll get something from them later? I just checked a handful of your games and don't see you using this system. Can you point to a game where you've used it?

It looks like this is just a way of pretending to analyze without really doing so.

VOTE: Ircher

On an unrelated note, I was concerned with the way ETL and Titus fell into an easy early alliance. Good to see that breaking up.

[Persivul]

On an unrelated note, I was concerned with the way ETL and Titus fell into an easy early alliance. Good to see that breaking up.

What if they are both town, wouldn't that be bad?

No. You don't need a buddy to scum hunt. You can vote the same as another player while still being cautious of them.

[Persivul]

Hmmm, I disagree, town blocks are one of the more effective ways to win games but if this is your philosophy I'm fine with your answer.

I agree that town blocks can be effective. Key words were

easy early

alliance. I don't see this as a town block. No way they had enough information to get such a strong read at that point, as evidenced by it now breaking up.

[Persivul]

heur only has 4 more posts than cy. If you don't like the cy wagon because the flip wouldn't tell us much, why do you want a heur wagon?

[Persivul]

You posted that you didn't care about this game. I, rightly, gave you shit for it.

^ This

[Persivul]

I disagree that his posted scumread not resulting in immediate action at this point in time is indicative of association. I agree with the logic, just not the circumstances. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a defense though, since it wasn't really active. Your conclusion here seems to be that because he wasn't actively attacking him, he was defending him, but I don't think that's a good conclusion to come to. Like, I get your logic on this - applying the same principle as lying by omission, defense by lack of offense, but you can't apply that here. It's not like people only have one scumread at a time.

I don't actually have reads on either ircher or copper.

I am bad at reading newbies.

p-edit: buncha posts.

ircher's

newbietown AF

imo.

You went from being bad at reading newbies to being able to identify someone as newbtown AF in a couple hours.

[Persivul]

Yeah, the stats thing is what you're voting him for AFTER saying he was newbtown for the same thing. You haven't really pushed Ircher as scum individually. You only tried to link him through me, which suggests a motive to just throw shade at me.

IIRC you two were buddies for awhile, then ETL was the one to back away. What motive does scum!ETL have to do that? It's D1. There are plenty of other lynch targets.

[Persivul]

and? I maintain I'm not great at pinning newbies. they haven't acclimated to ms yet and they are difficult to read difinitively. that doesn't mean I'm going to completely ignore them and not try to read them as best I can...?

No, but it does mean that you shouldn't be confident enough to call them newbtown as fuck.

[Persivul]

You should totally vote TBG

then. Let's give scum a shit sand which.

Why wouldn't you see that as scum motivated ETL? Do you think Kill is town?

VOTE: TBG

Cy wagon regrettably is dead.

@ETL, that's what I thought. You never had an independent scumread on Ircher.

So, basically you attempted to say I was scum with Ircher (who you had as obvtown as fuck) for defending him. That doesn't make sense at all. It's as if you had a checklist. Titus defends someone = they are buddies, but you were townreading Ircher.

When it gets highlighted your read depends on Ircher scum, you jump over to Ircher.

The read on TBG is stale. He began giving reasons with reads long ago

, even though they are not good reasons.

That still doesn't explain why you'd follow me and KTS, when you aren't townreading either of us.


@Kill/Magna, you down for an ETL wagon? Magna, if not, vote TBG?

TBG's last post was 616. You were still pushing him in 684 and 687. Yet, you say the scum read on him is stale because he began giving reasons long ago. That just doesn't add up.

VOTE: Titus

[Persivul]

So you think ETL is scummy for voting a person she had previously pushed, and who you also scum read, just because she didn't update her reasons. I'm not buying it.

[Persivul]

And I'm gathering that

trajectory

is the buzz word of the game...

[Persivul]

But again Titus, you and ETL were buddies at first. There are plenty of people for scum!ETL to mislynch. So, why does she turn on you? What's her motivation? Don't scum want allies?

[Persivul]

You should totally vote TBG then. Let's give scum a shit sand which.

When you posted this, did you think you had presented sufficient evidence for people to vote TBG, or were you just hoping for blind followers?

[Persivul]

Okay-looking answer.

Is it?

If she's saying that enough evidence had been given at that point for a person to reasonably vote TBG, then she doesn't have reason to scum read ETL for voting TBG. You don't need to regurgitate everyone's previously given reasons in order to vote.

OTOH, if there wasn't enough evidence given, but rather it's just a case of both Titus and Kill having the read without having given sufficient evidence, then:
- if they don't have evidence, what is the read based on?
- if they do have sufficient evidence, why aren't they sharing it?
- this is the second instance today of Titus looking for a buddy.

[Persivul]

I quoted the evidence Kill gave. HA has given evidence. I have in my ISO. I have work so I cannot put it together immediately.

You don't need to repeat it, at least not for my sake. The point is: if all this evidence had come out at that point, why do you fault ETL for then voting TBG? You say it's because ETL's previous given reason of lack of content was no longer applicable. But, you're now saying that plenty of evidence is out there. It makes no sense to expect town to necessarily regurgitate the already given evidence in order to vote someone, especially someone they previously scum read and voted.

And regarding previous games, I'm trying to decide if you're acting the same as you did in our last game, in which we were scum together. I'm also trying to decide if ETL looks like she did in my last game with her, in which she was scum and I was town.

[Persivul]

fos pers I've come full circle on him. He now looks quiet and opportunistic, compared to what I was seeing early. In fact, he reads like scum who through good fortune earned some townpoints early and has been trying to coast on it ever since. I've seen pers do more than this, and given that this is a pretty dynamic game with lots of lolcharacters, I'm suspicious why I haven't seen it here.

Because it's a large, and you're comparing to minis. I find larges overwhelming. I believe this is only my second. The previous was The Dating Game. Check it and you'll see I wasn't very active until the numbers had reduced.

[Persivul]

Sure, larges are overwhelming, and I'll take your word on your meta. Still, when I start to receive townvibes I go guns-blazing crazy, not hide in a shell. seems a little like you're cashing out while ahead, is the point.

I'm working on sorting Titus and ETL, which is likely much more important for the game than pushing some of the other people being pushed. For instance, I've had a scum read on Seth for some time, but that's something that can be pushed anytime. OTOH, in the dating game, I ended up in lylo with Titus, we were both town, but I scum read her. We won, but in spite of me. I'd prefer to sort such players earlier to the extent possible.

What's your take on these two?

[Persivul]

ETL > titus

And that means?

[Persivul]

@Pers, why did you ignore 845?

Because I thought it was bad and didn't warrant a response, but if you insist:

@Pers, Why should I suppose ETL scumreads TBG for the same reasons I do, when we rarely agree on anything?

Hopefully because your evidence has some objective basis which anyone could agree to. Are you now saying that you don't really have any evidence, just gut feelings or something, and you and kill are banding together based on nothing solid?

You cheered us starting to disagree but you expect groupthink there?

It's not groupthink if there's real evidence.

Second, ETL usually explains her votes and here she didn't. Why should I give ETL benefit of the doubt when scumreading her?

Because you would give others the benefit of the doubt, making it null wrt ETL, or anyone for that matter.

[Persivul]

Nah, you are straining hard. You're going to get hemmoroids.

Actually you're projecting.

Yeah, anyone could agree to objective evidence. It hasn't happened with ETL

So, anyone could agree to objective evidence...except ETL. You contradict yourself in the space of two sentences.

Again, each and every time you attempt to make some dig at the evidence against TBG in here.

No, I haven't done that at all. I'll take your word that there's evidence...but that means your argument that ETL had no basis for a TBG vote is incorrect. That doesn't bother me by itself. It's more that you won't let it go that's concerning.

You don't really state a townread on him either.

I don't really care about him right now.

Since you think you have ETL's reasoning figured out, why do you think she voted there?

Uh, maybe because she had a scum read on him some time ago, and you've presented additional evidence against him, and there was a wagon building on him? Why is that unreasonable?

[Persivul]

Pers hard defends ETL, saying she could have been following me, despite both of us knowing that is likely bullshit.

Calling you out on a bad charge against ETL is not a defense of ETL. I'm suspicious of ETL as well. See 750 and 766. I haven't done more with it because she's been gone today, but you're here.

[Persivul]

For someone who is suspicious of ETL, why did you interrupt my questioning of them?

1. Nothing prevented you from continuing your questioning. It always strikes me as disingenuous when people act as if there aren't multiple conversations going on in the thread.

2. Your line of questioning was bad and made me suspicious of you. You buddied up to ETL early, but then when she charged you with coaching, you turned on her, on a weak charge. If someone else did that, wouldn't you find it suspicious and consider pursuing it?

[Persivul]

This is bad. Just terrible. Of course people can be held up to scrutiny for votes with little or no reasoning. Suggesting that a lack of reasons in ETL’s personal ISO for the Brawl vote should be excused because others have listed valid reasons doesn’t make sense.

In general? Sure. But if I say hey here's a good wagon, then scum read people who join it, that's suspect. But, I'm getting over it. I was hoping to get more pressure on Titus to see her reaction. In a game in which we were both scum, she took pressure D1 and played poorly, just going after someone for suggesting a PL, and she got lynched. Here, she's misrepping me, and I find that concerning, but otherwise she looks pretty confident, which again I didn't see in her scum D1 play.

Especially in light of the circumstances where ETL was calling Titus scum. Why would Town ETL sheep her scum read Titus’s reasoning on a player?

Yes, that concerns me. Further, I have two games with ETL. She was scum in one and town in the other, and her tone here is closer to the scum game then the town game. But, it's not a black or white thing.

[Persivul]

Wait Oceanwind is a Pers alt?

No, I was scum with Oceanwind and Ranger. Titus pushed Ocean D1, but I got Titus lynched instead.

[Persivul]

Yeah, at first I didn't like how she turned on me for what I thought were reasonable points, but considering that game I can see where town!Titus would remember that game and scum read me here.

[Persivul]

You can trust shotty on that, he's an expert on bussing...

[Persivul]

BUSSED SO HARD!!!

[Persivul]

What do you think about zakk?

[Persivul]

No sir, I don't like it.

Why not?

[Persivul]

I agree that there's some suspicious stuff there, and particularly early. Plus, he has a different tone from our last game in which he was town. He's more measured in this game. But reviewing his ISO overall, I think it looks town. He's looking at different people, and generally the correct people. When challenged, he explains, but doesn't get defensive.

[Persivul]

33 pages and I didn't make an impression...

[Persivul]

33 pages and I didn't make an impression...

who are you again?

Nice...

[Persivul]

Oh yuk zakk, I start town reading you for being your own person and you get all conciliatory with Titus.

[Persivul]

Expedience's response is underrated, I didn't see a slight reaction to it and thus I didn't notice until Zakk quoted that, gave me quite a good laugh.

You know that your last few posts sound like scum struggling to participate, right?

[Persivul]

I wouldn't mind lynching ETL or Nosferatu.

[Persivul]

Egg, brawl, ircher, me, and Persivul should all vote together in a block. Expedience and projectmatt are also invited.

Thoughts?

What do you think about voting ETL?

Regarding ETL:
210 - sounds fake to me. She ISOd 4 people, makes no mention (town or scum) of what she found on the other three. In 609 she said she chose "the first 4 alphabetically. I usually copy the list into excel and type notes but I get bored quickly." So, she supposedly also ISOd Aneninen, copper, and cy. Searching her ISO, Aneninen isn't even mentioned. copper is a significant part of the discussion, but she makes no mention of what she learned on ISO, and says "I don't actually have reads on either ircher or copper. I am bad at reading newbies." After checking his games she should have some idea on him. With cy, she criticizes the wagon on him as lazy, but again makes no mention of meta.

270 - "p-edit i'm actually kind of town reading magnus but i'm wary because i get the feeling he's incredibly skilled at being scum."

282 - "I don't actually have reads on either ircher or copper. I am bad at reading newbies." 325 - "ircher's newbietown AF imo." 330 - "i didn't say he was obvtown. i said he looked super newbtown." She went from bad at being newbies, to knowing what looks newbtown AF or super newbtown.

387 - "how is cy the top wagon with only 2 posts?" is disingenuous, or shows she's not reading. zakk clearly explained that he saw the Ircher wagon as a trap for lazy scum to jump onto, and some people accepted that reasoning. She can disagree with it, but asking how it came to be is bad when it was spelled out clearly.

464 - Titus seems to be rebuffing a buddying attempt, but ETL charges her with coaching

468 - "Titus I suspect you and Ircher are both scum together, and of the two, you are the more dangerous. I'm happy to vote Ircher as well if it comes to that - he certainly seems like someone you've been trying to keep alive." But earlier, Ircher was newbtown AF and super newbtown.

Will continue if you need more. Plus, I've played twice with ETL. She was town once and scum once. Her tone as town was ruder and more aggressive. This game is more like her scum game. She eventually became obnoxious in that one as well, but she kept her cool on D1 for the most part.

[Persivul]

I probably might be off for saying this as I don't have much ground for saying much lol, but for what people are saying (with her fearmongering and being a hypocrite and all). I'll try to do an ISO of her later, but until then.

VOTE: Titus

I am only semi-useless now yaaaaaaaay!

Titus is a bad lynch for today.

But, she would be an excellent choice for a cop tonight.

[Persivul]

Wow, anen, can you ask more questions?

[Persivul]

Wait aren't you voting Titus?

If I am it's pretty old.

[Persivul]

OK
VOTE: ETL

[Persivul]

Why do you say that? I'm legit curious.

She's taking a leadership role. If town - and if her reads are good - that's a good thing, so she's a bad lynch target. BUT, if she's scum, the leadership role makes her that much more dangerous, so she's a good cop target.

[Persivul]

Mod! Can't we have some extention? We've got an empty slot!

That and a potential wagon is being derailed by a VLA.

[Persivul]

also anen is scum. he slipped but I'm mobile so find it yourself.

I can roll with this. I don't like how he painted my last post as a Beetlejuice tell when persivul just ninjad me.

I agree with this. I didn't push your immediate post because it was

too

immediate. Just seemed like coincidence.

[Persivul]

also anen is scum. he slipped but I'm mobile so find it yourself.

Yeah, because supposed scum slips are just such an accurate way of finding scum.

[Persivul]

Meh, just lynch me. I've never seen so much misrepping in a single game.

[Persivul]

I'm also getting strong scumvibes from pers, who seems to show up every so often and do just enough to stay out of the limelight.

First, it's odd that Mr. 23 posts would get scumvibes from Mr. 56 posts on that basis.

Second, my posts keep me in the limelight, as I've challenged both Titus and ETL. If I wanted to stay under the radar there are much better targets.

[Persivul]

Just read TBG's ISO. He looks pretty clean to me.

[Persivul]

So you don’t know where you vote was? And why did it take actual prompting from Titus to actually move

I don't know if it's larges in general or this game in particular, but no wagon has come close yet to actually putting pressure on someone, so my vote didn't concern me that much. In minis or micros I usually make sure to have it where I want it.

[Persivul]

So wait … it’s a Large game where more votes are required to get strong wagons going. And you’ve parked your wagon much of the day because “no good wagons are forming”?

Aside from RVS, I voted you in 283, ircher in 491, Titus in 792, and ETL in 1326.

You voted brawl in 232, KTS in 596, then back to brawl in 797.

So if you think vote parking is bad, look in the mirror.

[Persivul]

I was pooping. And then I went to bed cuz I was exhausted.

Wow, that must have been an impressive poop to leave you exhausted like that.

[Persivul]

I mean I guess it can't do that much harm?
Its Me, copper223, Persivul, and MagnaofIllusion.

Thank you. This helps tremendously. It also reaffirms that my reads list is indeed viable.

If you mean viable because I'm the scum in the group, you should push me for lynch today, right? If I flip red, that comes close to clearing the other three.

[Persivul]

Your stance is questionable and your attempt to play the deflect game upon being called on it is scummy.

So vote me.

Town!magna would vote me as a scum read.

Scum!magna, not so much. The hood is now known and the idea (which I agree with) that it probably contains 1 scum is out there. Liger is being town read. So, killing me would tkae it down to you and copper.

[Persivul]

Persivul, you don't think Ircher seemed pressured by his wagon? Or what about the two VT claims we've had already?

Looked at ircher's ISO. It was weird in the beginning. I liked his reads list (aside from it hurting my eyes in the sand colored skin) and what he did after that - all up until 1189. That's a vote for brawl, with posts before and after saying he liked brawl's content.

Regarding VT claims, I've seen town do it enough that it doesn't bother me.

[Persivul]

Your wagon becomes more viable than Brawl's? In a heartbeat.

Brawl's wagon isn't that big. You and Titus moving to me would probably make mine more viable.

Likewise you aren't voting me as Town!Pers would be voting me since I am scum pushing on him while scum!Pers not so much as it narrows it down to himself and Copper. /sarcasm

VOTE: Magna

Your post is just setting up a no-win situation - if I don't jump off Brawl I'm scum afraid to narrow down the Neighborhood and if I do I'm just caving to pressure and scum for it. Scummy.

It's only no-win if I'm town, and you seem to know I'm town.

If I'm scum and you lynch me, that's a scum down and the three other neighbors looking very townie. How is that not a win?

[Persivul]

Yup. I am. If the votes go there, I am down. I am voting the largest wagon of my scumreads.

If I flip red, that pretty much clears the others in the hood, so my lynch is more valuable.

It's interesting that you've been a leader - and you and magna are the first two on the brawl wagon - but now you guys act like you're at the mercy of others. If you really think I'm scum, rally the wagon. Mod said he's giving us an extension, so there's time.

[Persivul]

I want Titus to be town. she LOOKS town but I don't trust my gut there.

With the revelation of the existence and composition of the hood, town!Titus would have been all over me.

[Persivul]

zakk, can you vote magna?

[Persivul]

liger is clearly town. one thing that hits me the wrong way:

liger says there's a neighborhood
titus says omg who b i bet theres at least one scum
liger says pers and magna
pers votes magna

Not a good look for pers there.

Why not? Do you disagree with the theory that there's probably one scum in the neighborhood?

[Persivul]

zakk, can you vote magna?

i could, but i don't really want to

much prefer ETL because her reads are shite and it seems they are intentionally so

Yeah, but now that the hood is out me v. magna makes sense.

Titus' reads are also shite but i am not sure if that's just her being wrong or not

Same boat I was in, but her reluctance to wagon me is moving her into the scum zone.

[Persivul]

since you realized it was not to your townie-image benefit to be scumreading more than one person in there, suddenly you're not scumreading copper any more

No, she was off copper before the hood was known. But yeah, she's probably scum. Titus and magna apparently want to scum read me enough to discredit me...but they don't really want to see me flip. That's scum.

[Persivul]

why is it you vs. magna?

i had it as liger being town, and you being town, and it being between seth and magna.

but you're saying it's you vs. magna.
implying that you know one of you two is scum.

Seriously? I'm included because I'm the one Titus scum read that's in the hood, so if I do get lynched, my flip will show that Titus is likely scum, or at best she's town with bad reads and shouldn't be a leader.

[Persivul]

I think Persivul is scum in the neighborhood.

Cool - vote me. Don't let Titus and Magna off the hook by saying my wagon isn't viable.

[Persivul]

also anen is scum. he slipped but I'm mobile so find it yourself.

Yeah, because supposed scum slips are just such an accurate way of finding scum.

I feel like I'm missing something here

I'm saying that supposed scum slips usually aren't really slips, but rather a way to push a townie who just worded something awkwardly.

[Persivul]

That's odd considering that you later conceded that it really wasn't a slip, rather it was just the wording.

[Persivul]

That's odd considering that you later conceded that it really wasn't a slip, rather it was just the wording.

Correct. Not "trying to push a townie who just worded something awkwardly". You immediately tried floating that without bothering to look into what actually occurred or my actual thinking on the situation. In fact, you didn't even question me about it, like Titus did. It looks to me like you are intentionally trying to make anything stick, and that's just not town-motivated.

It looks to me like you and Titus are both scum who did a little distancing earlier.

[Persivul]

Yes and yes. Are you bothering to read mine? Yesterday someone pointed out I was vote parking. Today you're accusing me of jumping on every bandwagon possible. You're just making shit up.

[Persivul]

Egg, brawl, ircher, me, and Persivul should all vote together in a block. Expedience and projectmatt are also invited.

Thoughts?

What do you think about voting ETL?

Regarding ETL:
210 - sounds fake to me. She ISOd 4 people, makes no mention (town or scum) of what she found on the other three. In 609 she said she chose "the first 4 alphabetically. I usually copy the list into excel and type notes but I get bored quickly." So, she supposedly also ISOd Aneninen, copper, and cy. Searching her ISO, Aneninen isn't even mentioned. copper is a significant part of the discussion, but she makes no mention of what she learned on ISO, and says "I don't actually have reads on either ircher or copper. I am bad at reading newbies." After checking his games she should have some idea on him. With cy, she criticizes the wagon on him as lazy, but again makes no mention of meta.

270 - "p-edit i'm actually kind of town reading magnus but i'm wary because i get the feeling he's incredibly skilled at being scum."

282 - "I don't actually have reads on either ircher or copper. I am bad at reading newbies." 325 - "ircher's newbietown AF imo." 330 - "i didn't say he was obvtown. i said he looked super newbtown." She went from bad at being newbies, to knowing what looks newbtown AF or super newbtown.

387 - "how is cy the top wagon with only 2 posts?" is disingenuous, or shows she's not reading. zakk clearly explained that he saw the Ircher wagon as a trap for lazy scum to jump onto, and some people accepted that reasoning. She can disagree with it, but asking how it came to be is bad when it was spelled out clearly.

464 - Titus seems to be rebuffing a buddying attempt, but ETL charges her with coaching

468 - "Titus I suspect you and Ircher are both scum together, and of the two, you are the more dangerous. I'm happy to vote Ircher as well if it comes to that - he certainly seems like someone you've been trying to keep alive." But earlier, Ircher was newbtown AF and super newbtown.

Will continue if you need more. Plus, I've played twice with ETL. She was town once and scum once. Her tone as town was ruder and more aggressive. This game is more like her scum game. She eventually became obnoxious in that one as well, but she kept her cool on D1 for the most part.

^Me bothering to read your ISO.

[Persivul]

And just for the record, are you arguing that you are vote parking or that you are hopping on bandwagons?

Wow, you're really not reading the thread. I've already given my vote record.

[Persivul]

I do. Which makes me wonder why you did this only after someone outed the neighborhood and said there's likely scum in it, even though you knew about the neighborhood the whole time.

My initial thought, and supported by the wiki, was that there was likely a scum in the hood. My plan was to observe the other participants without interacting with them much and decide which was most likely to be scum. I didn't want them to be on guard with me in the hood. Then, in the hood thread, talk about other people and form some associatives.

When the new guy just came on and said he was in a hood - and I wonder why he did that - the plan changed.

[Persivul]

you know, that sort of makes sense to me. the vote still looks impulsive though, as if you're trying to get your vote in before others start looking at you.

Huh? I'm actively challenging people to look at me. I think the worst case for town is if Titus et. al. are able to keep me in the

scummy but not today's lynch

slot.

[Persivul]

I didn't want them to be on guard with me in the hood.

^ Not town thinking.

Why not?

[Persivul]

Oh I definitely think Persivul is the scum in the hood, with a small chance of it being Magna instead, but I feel more town from Magna than from Pers. Copper and Liger are good town reads for me at the moment.

Titus, who's your second choice for scum in the hood?

[Persivul]

Because mafia are concerned about other people being wary of them. Town are actively hunting.

Hunting is getting information. It's easier to get information from someone who's relaxed than from someone who's on guard.

[Persivul]

What? who's your first?

I am. That's just her way of copping out from answering the question.

[Persivul]

Oh is that your professional opinion based on your extensive experience with Titus and her methods and all the games you've played where people behaved the same way?

No, it was just really fucking obvious to anyone who was reading along.

[Persivul]

And this is why you are scum. There’s been a reason I’ve been pressing Copper so hard – the quicker I can sort whether he is scum before the hood opens the better off it is for my ability to parse his neighborhood activity and reads.

The part you're missing is that your pressure on Copper is likely to

affect

his neighborhood activity and reads. Someone who thinks they're being scum read might simply minimize hood activity in order to avoid giving associatives. OTOH, someone who thinks they're safe with the neighbors is more likely to open up and give more information. So, it's better to sort the person through their interaction with other people, rather than pressing them yourself.

[Persivul]

Magna vs Persivul is clearly town vs town. They aren't afraid of being in a smaller scum pool. So it looks like if there is exactly one scum neighbor, it's Copper.

Why not liger? He came in, outed the hood, got in step with Titus and ETL, and hasn't done anything else.

[Persivul]

And the bolded, which you are floating as what scum would do, is exactly what you've done most of the day ... minimize your interactions to miminize associations.

Apples and oranges. It's not like I was going to interact significantly with all 20 other people today anyway.

But, with your vote on me, I'm not as concerned about you.

[Persivul]

Magna vs Persivul is clearly town vs town. They aren't afraid of being in a smaller scum pool. So it looks like if there is exactly one scum neighbor, it's Copper.

This is an interesting way to phrase it, what happens when there isn't exactly 1 instead?

^Note that that's a quote of Egg, not me.

[Persivul]

@Persivul
Why are you so eager to flip if you aren't even sure that Titus/ETL are scum and pushing on you?

First, it was partially a test. Scum!Titus should have been all over me with news of the hood. Instead she just hangs on the TBG wagon.

Second, when is town ever sure? Right now I would say:

ETL - scum
Titus - probably scum, possibly bad town, but as she's taken a leadership role the latter is still pretty damaging
copper/liger - one of these is scum

[Persivul]

@copper:

but if pers is town is town then I feel even more confident in ETL scum

This is why I'm cool with a lynch. I think there are clear associatives to be drawn.

[Persivul]

So which one is it Persy?

Just a mistake. The more recent should read town!Titus. A you said yourself: "The only way for it to be strategically advantageous to lynch outside the hood is if you're supposing 6 scum in the game." So, I'm as strong a scumread as any you have, and I'm in the hood. You should have been on me. And no, you haven't been pushing me all game. You put an OMGUS scum read on me after I started questioning you, but you haven't pushed at all. Just the opposite - you've fought to stay on TBG and NOT push me.

[Persivul]

Persivul is scum for repeatedly taking things out of context and straining to firm arguments. He's white knighting/hard defending ETL at the moment which is awkward as crap. For instance, he's been focused on having it be ok for ETL to jump on my wagon with no reason that fits the current game state. Just reread the last few pages and you'll get the idea.

This is your first reason given for scum reading me - hard defending ETL. You now have ETL as a full town read...

[Persivul]

@zakk: OMG, you're going to one of my newbie games from a year ago and saying that's my definitive town meta.

Are you scum, or just a fucking idiot?

[Persivul]

Yeah, in my last game with him (in which I actually was scum) he was one of the better townies - when he was active, which was sporadic. He was way better than this.

[Persivul]

ALSO: if you were town you probably wouldn't have bothered to check the links
because hypothetical town-you would know that no matter what the links held, they wouldn't be relevant if it was related to me thinking you are scum.

That is possibly the furthest reach I've heard in my time on this site.

[Persivul]

Everything makes more sense when you assume Titus is town and notice pers is scum.

This is completely incorrect. You're not looking at the big picture at all. Scum!Pers would have joined with or avoided town!Titus, then NK'd her.

[Persivul]

I was townreading Persivul before, what made me rethink the read was him asking people to vote him. That seemed to me like a scum WIFOM play about making himself look tough and unafraid of votes.

I never developed a taste for wifom. I actually am unafraid of votes. TBG's wagon had stalled, but nothing else was building, and he would have ended up as the default deadline lynch. If TBG is town, I don't think his flip would have done anything. He just seemed to accumulate votes over time without much of a case ever being stated. I believe my flip will be much more informative, as people are needing to give reasons to switch to me late in phase, and those reasons are weak.

[Persivul]

Faked scumreads have no nuance to them, because they're made up and you already know alignments. Real scumreads come in varying levels of certainty. The fact that you think me, zakk, pers, and shotty have the same chance of being Scum comes from a Scum perspective. A Town player is making their best guesses, and is naturally more or less sure on slots as they do scummy/townie things. I have never, ever met a Town player who had the same level of confidence in 4 different lynches.

This bears repeating.

[Persivul]

You and Pers have attempted to do a rhetorical damned if you do damned if you don't. If I am voting you, your buddy argues that I'm not pushing him. I vote him, you argue that my belief it's genuine. I already highlighted that before. I can be equally confident in two scumreads and only have one vote.

This results from you supposedly having four or five people as equal scum reads. If you had varying levels of uncertainty, as is usual with town, you would want to lynch the one you're least unsure of, and so you'd have a valid reason not to flip-flop when challenged.

Speaking of which...if TBG and I were scum partners, why would I try to draw the wagon off of him and onto myself? The only reason would be that I'm a goon and he's a PR. Town!titus would have spotted that easily and and given it as reason not to switch. But, you just gave viability as a reason, and eventually did switch.

[Persivul]

If you were really trying to dispute this you’d have brought up the much better point that the first link isn’t even to a game but to GTKAS for Zakk himself. That’s what someone who actually was criticially assessing zakk’s post would do. Because it is garbage to say “This is Town Pers” and to link to non-game thread.

But you just try to laugh it off as if meta from a year ago somehow isn’t valid. People are bringing up meta for me from 5 to 6 years ago on a regular basis.

This is the kind of crap that is passing for analysis in this game.

Titus came in forming alliances and setting herself up as a leader. I pressured her, earning myself a scum read. The correct question to be asking yourself is: who has more motivation to do that: scum!pers, or town!pers?

[Persivul]

1. i don't see how titus has done that.

She's currently negotiating an alliance with nahdia as one example.

2. you seemed fine with being in my "alliance", why are you making it sound like it was a bad thing taht Titus did it?

Again, what is scum!pers's motivation to poke the bear? You quote my post, then pick at the details while avoiding what's really important. In your case, I don't know if that's scummy or confbias.

[Persivul]

2. what "important" stuff did i miss? seems like a pissing match between you and someone else again.

You missed the big picture again - why would scum!pers choose to go up against town!Titus on D1? It makes absolutely no sense. You waved it off as wifom, which can be applied to 90% of this game.

[Persivul]

if that's all you found worth responding to then i will wrap the noose around your fucking neck myself

There would be plenty more there to respond to -

if I were trying to get out of the lynch

. I've stated that I'm not and given the reasons for it. I'm thinking your town for that last outburst. You'll be humbled town when I flip, but still probably town.

[Persivul]

I don't get the reasoning there - usually people claim because they are indeed trying to escape lynching. But I'm just a neighbor. I wouldn't offer myself up for information if I had a real PR.

[Persivul]

That trend didn't get to me.

[Persivul]

I know I've tried his approach when I was frustrated town of telling the accuser that the stuff he was accusing me of was never going to be part of my scum game (spoiler: they never believe it so you might as well drop that line of argument if you're town Persi.).

I'm not saying it in expectation of saving myself. I put myself in this position. Avoiding lynch today would have been child's play. I'm saying that for purposes of analysis after the flip. Not everyone looks correctly at motivations, but there are a couple of good players in this game who know how to - and if they're on my lynch, people need to wonder why.

[Persivul]

ALSO: if you were town you probably wouldn't have bothered to check the links
because hypothetical town-you would know that no matter what the links held, they wouldn't be relevant if it was related to me thinking you are scum.

That is possibly the furthest reach I've heard in my time on this site.

actually it's an excellent point.

no, sounds like a pretty fucking terrible point to me. If I'm town or scum, I'm looking at the game they linked because perhaps A. there's an extenuating circumstance that makes this game and that game different, and B. I want to see if he's even correct in asserting the two games are noticeably different in the first place.

Personally I'm not concerned with zakk saying it at this point. I am concerned that ETL endorsed it though.

[Persivul]

See you keep going at this point again and again and I’ll point to your early encouraging of ETL and Titus being at odds as scum!Pers motivation. I’m currently Town to Townish reading both. You threw shade at their early interactions that looked like they were willing to work together.

Strong Town players working together is a bad, bad thing for scum.

And when they started to conflict you worked to drive the wedge in deeper to keep them on opposite sides of the fence, as it were.

Yes, and a strong scum player creating or infiltrating a town block is a bad, bad thing for town. That was and is my concern. Blocks that form organically over a period of days are good. Blocks that form out of little or nothing over a period of pages are suspicious. Strong town leadership can be a good thing, but leaders need to be vetted.

[Persivul]

I might just not want to be lynch Persivul cause he is in my neighborhood.

With me dead and Magna VLA, you'll get to know copper really well.

[Persivul]

PARANOIA~~~~~

Fake town slip much?

[Persivul]

Shaziro is using pretty standard newbie analysis and is probably town.

[Persivul]

Reads on my current wagon:

ETL - scummy
Lowell - I've gone back and forth on this slot - null
Magna - null
Titus - another back and forth, but currently scummy
copper - lean town - what was your intent in naming the hood in 181?
zakk - lean town
Expedience - town
shaz - town

[Persivul]

PARANOIA~~~~~

Fake town slip much?

I seriously can't wait to quote this in end-game. You are annoying me.

Die, scum, die.

It's my experience. In fact I was recently in a long mylo in which the scum noted his supposed paranoia a couple times (hi cakez!).

[Persivul]

p-edit: If you are actually town, I honestly don't even know what to say, other than, learn to play better. Your reads are all fucking backwards and wrong.

Likewise. I'm flipping green.

[Persivul]

Which is why I say, if you are town, you really need to rethink your process because it's not working.

Right back at you!

[Persivul]

Totally missed the point. I've been doing all the things you are NOT doing, exactly the things you SHOULD be doing - actual discussion, real analysis, transparency. NOT jumping on anything that could possibly give you a reason to scumread someone.

I disagree with the accuracy of your self assessment, but even if it's true - those things have you about to lynch town, so if you're town, those apparently AREN'T the things you should be doing...or you're doing them wrong. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - scum!pers has no motivation to take on town!ETL or town!Titus. In Blitz 1 I took on Titus, but that was because a partner was in serious trouble. In this game, I started after you guys well before anyone was even remotely in danger. If me and TBG were scum, I would have just pushed some other townie. I certainly wouldn't have taken his place. This isn't rocket science.

[Persivul]

Re: kill, it seemed to me he was saying the Nos post was null, while the zakk response was trying to appear townie.

[Persivul]

Except we were townreading you early on

What is scum!pers's motivation to turn on people who are town reading him?

[Persivul]

i think per is town. will ISO to see if it does match his town game which im extremely familiar with and can pinpoint. if i say hes town, dont fuck with him again

It's amazing that people think a person has a single town game. My town game changes based on my mood, the size of the game, my role, the playerlist... Meta is useful if you accept its limitations. Saying you can "pinpoint" indicates you don't consider the limitations.

[Persivul]

Can you two please avoid the personal attacks? I think y'all might do well to do what ETL and Titus set up early game, take a break and come back with some kind of safe word to avoid things getting too heated?

PROVIDE CONTENT OR SHUAFH SHSSSSSSSSSSSSS

PERSIVUKL IS SCUM LYNCH HIM IMMEXIATLEY!!1! VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: PURSIVL!1!1

Vote me or unvote me as you like, but don't put this up, then say I'm town, then say when the vote counts that you didn't think it would.

[Persivul]

@Titus:

Reads on my current wagon:

ETL - scummy
Lowell - I've gone back and forth on this slot - null
Magna - null

Titus - another back and forth, but currently scummy

copper - lean town - what was your intent in naming the hood in 181?
zakk - lean town
Expedience - town
shaz - town

Yes, my position on you has changed. It may again. Unlike you, I don't have 5 equal scum reads - go figure!

[Persivul]

Or maybe you could just answer?

[Persivul]

Actuallyyy I didn't realize it was just a day

That's because it isn't. It's 2 days 3 hours.

[Persivul]

VOTE: ETL

[Persivul]

You didn't actually - you avoided saying Titus was scum or I was scum outright as much as you possibly could until asked directly. It wasn't difficult to notice, because I thought your instant townread and white knighting in the beginning was weird from the get go, so I watched your read on me. You flirted around it, not really trying to come right out and say it, until you were forced to.

Genuine reads take time to develop.

Also, "I wouldn't do that as scum!" is just about the most WIFOM defense you could possibly offer, and you should try something else. I'm ignoring pretty much any statement that contains any variation of "would scum!pers do this?"

It's not offered as a defense.

Judging motivations is the essence of town play. You know that, and so does Titus. I don't bring it up to save myself. I bring it up so people remember it after my flip. I understand some people not getting it, but there are some others who definitely should have.

[Persivul]

WTF shotty are you trying to out-troll the troll?

[Persivul]

Look at his history - one newbie game. Isn't really surprising.

[Persivul]

Also, Persivul is town that wagon is trash tier.

Who specifically on the wagon is scummy?

[Persivul]

not to mention looking at the vc now this wagon is uncontested.

UUUGH!!!!

in any case the fact that it's uncontested still stands so now I dunno wtf to do. we do t have time for anything

Yep, my wagon's been building for days now, and there hasn't been a counter wagon. Scum tend to push a CW when one of their own is taking heat.

[Persivul]

I don't know how I feel about this, but I believe this makes the player at L-1 again.
I think someone should declare intent and he should claim.

What is this, like the fourth person to ask for a claim when I already have?

[Persivul]

Persivul full claim please

You guys stop cluttering the thread with nonsense and wait for the important information, thanks.

Another one? WTF?

[Persivul]

I don't get the reasoning there - usually people claim because they are indeed trying to escape lynching. But I'm just a neighbor. I wouldn't offer myself up for information if I had a real PR.

[Persivul]

Are you just purposely being stupid?

[Persivul]

Of course not. The wagon is the main point of the exercise. When I did reads at L-3, I figured one scum would be in the final 3.

Why did you do the unvote/vote? WHy did you want to strategically change your position in the final VC?

[Persivul]

1 day, 10 hours. Who will hammer the obvious townie...

[Persivul]

To good players I am.

[Persivul]

I'm going to be lynched. The question is just who is going to hammer.

[Persivul]

kts flash wagon anyone?

No. KTS is bizarre and no one would miss him, but if he's lynched last minute and flips green town gets no information from it, and then the scum on my wagon continue to push me as a distraction tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Copping a newbie at this point of the game is terrible. Investigations should be on more experienced players.

[Persivul]

Investigations should be on the people who would reveal the most if their alignment is known.

No, investigations should be on people who could do most damage as scum and who are best able to appear townie as scum. That's experienced people. Newbies can be sorted later.

[Persivul]

Yes, vets can be more dangerous when scum, but if someone is scummy, I'd rather them checked, than potentially lynch them due to them acting scummy and turn out town.

So you investigate a scummy newbie. The scummy newbie comes back as town. The newbie gets wagoned. As cop, you out yourself just to save one scummy newbie early in a large.

That's really bad.

[Persivul]

@ Kop: Yes, it's bad. Newbies should be sortable as scum or just bad town by D3, and you shouldn't be lynching newbies on D1 or D2 anyway.

[Persivul]

Sort of back.

Can someone summarize the most important things which have happened on the last about 25 pages?

I called BS on the TBG wagon and told Titus that, since I'm an equal scum read of hers, to wagon me. I'm town but offering myself up for info. There hasn't been a CW.

[Persivul]

because I don't need to because he's being lynched? If someone wants to VCA later, by all means consider me on there, but I don't vote people who I know for sure will be lynched without my direct involvement.

Wow, I don't believe you just came out and said that.

[Persivul]

If that's a lynch, guess what - I'm still town.

[Persivul]

idk. Titus said I was at L-2 and there's been 2 votes since, but I haven't verified.