Mafia 67 - Abandoned!

[Samruc]

Vote: undo

For trying to make me change this vote simply by his name

[Samruc]

Nice to see the game catching some speed. Nothing superscummy so far, but I found some highlights from Mr. Albert B. Rampage:

I encourage everyone to vote Tar as well, as he has effectively proven himself to be scum with the latest of his ramblings.

Okay? That was a bit quick, from those few posts.

Followed by:

Your certainty on the subject worries me.

Unvote Vote: ABR

Agree with this post.

^

Scummy as hell.

Did you really think this would help your position? Calling people scummy because they attack you is not a defense.

Bah I refuse to comment further on the subject. In Fonz's words, lalalala

Even better... Do you suggest we all should argue this way? A simple answer do much more for the discussion, and for your own sake.

O.K. I think this is a joke gone too far.

Actually, I don't think people are joke-voting any more. Your behaviour is the one that strikes me as the most scummy so far, so:

Unvote, vote: Albert B. Rampage

for his frantic finger-pointing and unresponsive attitude. Think that puts him at -7, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Samruc]

I'm sure it will get smaller eventually, if that is what you want... Otherwise there are smaller games to sign up for. Also, too big for what?

[Samruc]

Prod:

indy, zakk_status and Honary Hitchhiker. None of them has shown up yet.

[Samruc]

why are you so happy about that? what do you have against albert?

[Samruc]

If I were mafia, my partners would certainly be trying to bus me right now, and are currently on my wagon. Just a thought.

So you want us to suspect the people on your wagon... because you could be mafia!?

I'm getting cold feet about this wagon.

Unvote

Because you find someone else scummier? Because you think we are gonna lynch him? Afraid he will claim?

I'll start reading through the posts and post something soon.

Define "soon"

Major FOS: Undo

Second, why on earth would you think claiming at 5-6 votes in a 16 to lynch situation would be a good plan?

Who said claim would be a good plan? Definitely not Undo...

And Niv, who exactly is BJ? I think it would help if you wrote (more of) people´s full names.

[Samruc]

I haven't played with ABR before, but if you excuse his behaviour so far it seems you could explain away almost anything. I'm happy with my vote for now.

I guess I could check some of his earlier games, (and of course we shouldn't lynch someone purely on playstyle), but I definitely wouldn't *defend* someone purely on playstyle either.

[Samruc]

@bobbyplump: I mostly agree with Jordan. I think the SK is a given, and the bullets gotta be scum´s work... Three bullets = three family members? If that is the case, there has to be a second family somewhere, hiding or blocked. But wouldn't it be cool with just one big family, 7-8 scum vs 20+ town...

By the way, how could these speculations really help town? Do you think we should use different tactics depending on setup?

[Samruc]

^

Now that's a quick way of invalidating serious votes. If Albert is acting "inherently scummy", why wouldn't votes pile up? Albert might or might not be the play, but let's not clear people simply by the speed of their wagons.

[Samruc]

Albert, you are...

[Samruc]

So if ABR is jester and wins, the game still continues, which means we can win too, right? Otherwise there would be no point in continuing. IF he is jester, and IF we are to not let him win, we would have to live with him for the rest of this game, while he would do more and more bizarre plays, distracting us from scumhunting.

Ok, there is a risk he is jester, but I'm willing to take that risk. And I would be quite nervous about him running amuck if he is SK, which I think the style of his posts suggests.

[Samruc]

But K-Scope does have one point: We really *should* let Albert defend himself.

[Samruc]

This game is insane, couldn't imagine a 30-person game to move this quick, but that's interesting of course.

Maybe I should comment on the jester lynch: Since I said I was prepared to take the risk that Albert was Jester, shame on me... I was actually quite convinced he *was* SK. Bah. But as pointed out above, we can still win, and we probably would have gone for Albert anyway sooner or later. At least he got discussions started.

So, D3: I guess there is a lot to learn from lynching BM, and it seems like we have a scum here, unless Tar is playing us, but that's gonna be his doom tomorrow then, right? My only concern for now is that if we go fast again, we are probably gonna enter D4 with people in the game who still haven't made a single post.

Which makes me think, that while I'm probably going to vote BM, I'd like the mod to resolve the prods/replacements first. I know blahgo is away, but a couple more days won't bother me.

[Samruc]

If you come up town, how can Tar possibly not be scum?

I'm a Cop. I'm mod-confirmed sane and get exact alignments. I got a neutral result on Albert N1 (hence my early wagon on him). I targetted Battle Mage last night.

Battle Mage is Mafia.

[Samruc]

<- feels stoopid.

It might be a side effect of only having one completed (newbie) game, but I guess I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the more creative roles, as I already did that mistake with our jester. Supposedly, framing would apply until end of game? So we can't just check BM again? Also, what would have happened if the framer and the cop targets a person at the same night?

It's worth noting that Tar's result is back from N2, before this game turned into the so called 'BM show' (D1 was more or less the ABR show.) That makes it less likely a Framer would have had the time to choose BM. And I do find a bit odd that BM goes out of his way to preemptively defend Tar instead of suspecting him, which would be my reaction if someone said I was confirmed scum when I was not. This makes me consider the "gambit"-theory...

I'd *really* like to know if our claimed cops are telling the truth, but I don't want a lynch based on pure gut feelings... Those of you voting BM, what are your concrete reasons for believing Tar over BM?

[Samruc]

Since it's almost night anyway, I'm not really interrupting any discussions going off-topic here:

Blahgo, I've invested more than 500 hours in reading Harry Potter. I'm not the greatest of fans, but still, putting... that... in your pic is just evil. I thought scummers here would know not to spoil other people's fun, but apparently there are always exceptions. I can't be in a game where I can not even reread the thread, so...

I'm /out.

Now.

[Samruc]

Hi again. Sorry for being away...

I have been convinced I should return to the thread, if you'll have me. This game is probably still in bad need of replacers, without me dropping. (And I have been reading, although I haven't thought much about what's been said). I'm obviously still no fan of blahgo, but I will keep that out of thread.

I'm doing a reread, just finished D1 (I'm not doing that again...) and will probably have a catch-up post done tomorrow. I can't say anything aboute the current game-state right now, but I think we are close to hammer, and I would prefer if that did *not* happen yet. Ok?

[Samruc]

Ok, I will assume that bobbyplumps vote count was correct, since no one protested. That gives now:

BobbyPlump 10 - SirTornado, Jordan, JimmyR, HonoraryHitchhiker, Niv, Sorin, Hjallti, Tar, Khelv, Aimee

Kscope 4 - Bobbyplump, Undo, Guzame, Kscope

********

I’ll start with some observations from earlier days, and see where this will lead me.

First part of day 1 held a bandwagon against Battle Mage, who later turned out to be scum. I looked at who defended him, and found, not surprisingly The Fonz:

Basically, the 'problem' if it can even be called that, with Battle Mage is that he is a very untraditional player, and is frequently found holding a position that most scummers would regard as extremely antitown, and sincerely believing it to be in the town's interest.

This makes him hard to read, of course, because there are times when he is actually deliberately acting against the town's interests, and it is nigh-on impossible to distinguish when he is deliberately hurting the town from when he is sincere but wrong, so conventional post-based analysis doesn't really work with regard to him.
/…/
I think the best play for town on day one is basically to ignore you.

The interesting part is the next quote, which feels really suspicious in this context;

Personally, I find the most notable thing about playing with BM is not BM, but those that come out with guns blazing and attack him early on.

FoS: Aimee

. More on Aimee in my notes below.

***

End of D1 was Albert’s show, but here is one interesting post from Khelvaster:

Aimee: I really like her. First, she talks about how BM draws scum looking for a d1 quicklynch. Then, she says that lurker hunting is premature. She is urging caution repeatedly, and hasn't gone after anyone specifically. For now, I would say she is definitely town
/…/
Battle Mage provides a very, very pro-town view, when others are considering the madness of letting an SK live today. His post 29 is one of the best posts I have seen in this topic so far. He then goes even further, with a great post about how K-scope is screwing around with his logic on the SK. This causes me to

FoS: K-scope.

I am getting very pro-town vibes from BM about all this. If we both survive into an endgame, I might push to lynch him just because being pro-town is so out of character for him . Seriously though, I see almost no possible way BM could be scum. His cases against K-scope and ABR make perfect sense.

Finger of Town: BM

We already know he was wrong on BM, and I can’t help feeling his buddying up with Aimee is suspicious too, but I’m not sure who to be suspicious of… Since Khelvaster haven’t commented yet on his BM-analysis, I’m curious to hear from him. One more quote right after BM was lynched:

BM got incredibly jumpy this game, which is a scummy thing to do. If he had kept his cool, maybe we would have gone after Tar instead. Thus, BM was lynched..

Sounds like disappointed scum talking here.

FoS: Khelvaster

. Want to hear what you have to say about this.

***

Then, one from Guzame:

Vote: Tarhalindur

for trying to focus everyone's attention at BM.

You can’t be too happy about this quote in hindsight. Care to comment?

***

And one from Jordan;

@Tarhalindur: I'm not sure about BM, it's hard to get a read on a player like him. My gut says he's town for now.

This is almost exactly what The Fonz said about BM. Blaming “your gut” feels like an easy way ou. Not sure what to make of this one.

(Late edit: Noticed you were cleared by Tar. Anyway…)

Another note on Jordan:

Scum are more likely to say NKed than lynched because they've got NKing on the mind. It's a psychological scum slip.

I’m surprised then, that you didn’t comment on Sir Tornado’s slip in 336-337:
[quote="] Your win condition is different than ours. Shouldn't we NK you before you implement that plan then?
/…/
EBWOP:
I meant "Lynch" rather than NK in my last post. Was thinking about a completely different game.[/quote] In fact, I don’t think *anyone* mentioned this.

That’s what I dug up from D1-3.

********

Ok, moving on to current day then.

I think Tar was protected last night, and *is* a mod-confirmed, sane cop. I’ve believed that during all of my reread, since he pointed out *twice* during D1 that Albert would be a neutral, and everything else seems to fit as well. Nothing doubtable about his claim at all.

That’s why I find it so strange that K-Scope would be a sane cop, but not confirmed! Sure, having two sane cops is a possibility, but why would the mod be that inconsistent? I agree that K-Scope’s claim is a bit too convenient… My theory is that he is godfather, whatever he says about his joke now. What would be a better way of hiding, than getting innocent from our confirmed cop, giving us one scumbag as gambit and then go on laughing all the way till the end?

The funny thing, even if I’m wrong and Scope is a sane cop; that only makes my decision even better.

Possibilities:
1. K-Scope is GF and bussing bobby. = Bobby is scum
2. K-Scope is sane cop = Bobby is scum.
3. K-Scope is GF and lying about Bobby = We get Scope tomorrow. Still okay in my book.

Worst case; K-Scope cop, bobby = miller/framed. Hope this isn’t the case, but I think this is the most unlikely scenario, so…

Vote: bobbyplump

That makes for L-1 then.

[Samruc]

Yes, my FoS was never explained, except in my notes, and as I can't expect you to read the notes that are lying on my desk, maybe I should clarify

Seriously, I've noticed Aimee in three posts:

Firstly, it's the post I mentioned above. Battle Mage was attacked, and The Fonz and Aimee jumped to his defence. Could be a coincidence, but I decided to look for more.

Next up is this one:

Tarhalindur: Obviously I don't really see a need to doubt him at this stage - it would be categorically stupid to fake claim cop with a guilty on your scum-partner.

I most definitely don't agree. Note that this was right after Tar had cleared K-Scope, and right before Scope claimed cop with a guilty on bobbyplump. Again could be a coincidence, but as I've decided not to trust Scope, I'm interested in anything that connects to him.

One more;

The most notable way of checking KScope is by lynching bobby, unless bobby is a power-role. Since he is a townie, it`s worth it to find out KScope`s identity - he`d have to be a complete moron to do that as scum.

So either way, we get scum - bobby (through KScope`s investigation) or KScope (through his lies and claim) - here is no reason to do that as town.

vote: bobbyplumb

At least you are playing it consequently (up to this point), but I still don't agree with you. Just as my argument for Scope=GF is WIFOM, this is as well. The difference is, I'm using my argument to keep all possibilities open, while you are using yours to protect Scope.

Your latest post is another interesting addition. Since you now turned your back on Scope, (and I presume you still trust Tar), the only reason can be that you now think he is GF. Or?

My guess is that you got nervous after reading my post above.

Am I wrong?

[Samruc]

I already gave a possible scenario.

The godfather has two obvious advantages. The first one is that he knows exactly who every mafia is, and the second one is that he can't be found guilty by a cop. Assuming K-Scope is GF, and that he is now found innocent by our 99% confirmed cop, he would be in a golden position to take advantage of that by bussing one scumbuddy (and he would still have several more to bus if needed) to gain the trust of town. Some people said that bobby turning up scum would confirm K-Scope, including you, but I think that is wrong.

Still, I'm not saying I can prove this, all I say is that we would risk close to nothing by lynching bobbyplump. (A townie for a GF isn't optimal, but can't ever be considered bad either.)

When I presented this theory, you suddenly switched your vote to K-Scope. I can't help interpreting that as a way of distancing from Scope, and possibly saving bobby.

[Samruc]

Ok then, I agree with "I don't really see a need to doubt him at this stage" about Tar. I dont agree that "it would be categorically stupid to fake claim cop with a guilty on your scum-partner" since this is what I think K-Scope did. Clear?

(By the way, it was you who said "he`d have to be a complete moron to do that as scum". Now you agree with me.)

And I also think Scope shouldn't be voting himself if he is cop. Still, it *could* just be that he is annoyed at something, as he also *might* have been when he joke-claimed GF.

I think your post 890 is completely out of character, and I wonder why you so strongly attack Scope *right now*. I think something is not adding up here.

[Samruc]

K-Scope, can you post a defense please.

Second this

[Samruc]

KScope is really obvious scum.

I still get the feeling you are running this because you are afraid of the info we will get with our next lynch.

I have a question for people: if you think Scope is scum, that means he must be godfather, right? Wouldn't it be incredibly stupid for him then, to claim cop and lie, especially regarding bobby, since we would just lynch, find the lie and then go for Scope?

[Samruc]

I didn't second the ultimatum, just the demand for an explanation. With that said...

I thought this lynch was pretty straight-forward, with a claimed 'guilty' on bobby. The reason it's not that simple, is of course K-Scope himself. The only thing he has been doing for the last pages is mess with the town, and that is not what I call cop behaviour.

So, at least for now:

unvote, vote: K-Scope

(On a sidenote, I think it's replacement time soon... We're about to hit 40 pages in the near future, and that is pretty heavy. Is there a possibility of reusing the NK'ed townies?)

[Samruc]

No no, I didn't mean *I* need to be replaced. I was talking about the deadline pie had set for the prods. I'm finding this game quite interesting, otherwise I wouldn't be here

[Samruc]

I'm kind of impressed at bobby swaying half the town to his side, but he's had a lot of help from K-Scope too -- Scope, have you given up?

And I wonder where Pie is (or blahgo), shouldn't it be time now to start looking for replacements?

[Samruc]

Has anyone tried PM-ing the mods?

[Samruc]

Ok, good, I just sent a PM to Pie as well.

[Samruc]

Tar is right. I shouldn't be keeping my vote for Scope, when the only reason for that vote was trying to pressure him.

Bobby is the play, there can be no doubt about it for me.

Unvote, vote: bobbyplump

. Let's get this done.

[Samruc]

If you have claimed pro-town cop, and you have a guilty on someone else, there is absolutely no logic in self-voting.

I'm having trouble conceptualising how people can argue against this.

There is nothing to argue against:

Yes, he has claimed "pro-town cop".
Yes, he claims he has a guilty.
Yes, there is no logic in selfvoting.

[Samruc]

No, you could just as well say:

If you are scum and have claimed cop with a guilty on someone else, there is absolutely no logic in self-voting.

I find this equally true.

[Samruc]

KScope is not logical.

Then you can't expect him to behave logically

when he is a cop either

.

I repeat: Scope claimed cop, bobby's got a guilty. At worst we trade a townie for a scum (= probably GF), at best we save a cop.

Can't believe I stuck with my Scope-vote until L-1...

[Samruc]

Mod:

Two people have already offered being replacements. Check the "Mafia 67"-thread in Queue forum.

[Samruc]

A cookie for a hammer!

[Samruc]

Vote: K-Scope

He's got to be first.

***

Pie:

have you recieved the setup from blahgo? If so, try to get some replacements here

now

, before this game collapses under it's own weight...

[Samruc]

Vote: Aimee

[Samruc]

Well, I was vanilla.

I guess K-Scope or someone else of the scums could tell us?