Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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unvote; vote: thedragonsprincessfor expressing certainty about the non-pirate alignment of another player.
FOS: Snaps_The_Piratefor roleclaiming too early."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, not a joke vote.
unvote; vote egruntz
You may not agree with the random vote phase, but I really dislike your suggestion of a "no-lynch". Right now I can tell you at least one relevant fact I have derived from our page one discussion: Dark Ermac isn't paying close attention. Why? Because he voted for me "for voting for a pirate." I did not at any point vote for Snaps.
Just because you don't derive anything useful doesn't mean others don't or can't, and pushing for a no-lynch on day one (and your stated assumption is that there automatically WILL be one, which also tells me you haven't read many games here, if any) is in my view counterproductive and rather scummy. You're making a lot of assumptions about what will occur, and jumping to a conclusion without enough evidence.
Additionally, you're a killjoy."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I was finding it rather fast-paced and amusing, personally.egruntz wrote:You really don't get much information about each other from the start as it is, and that's what makes the beginning of this game slow and rather dull.
Do you think you can get more information from a dead body than from a live one?
What conclusion do you feel I've rushed to?egruntz wrote:@Bookitty
You're the one rushing to conclusions."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Surely. Do you think that the only use of a vote is to cause someone to be lynched?The Fonz wrote:Kitty, you're an experienced enough player. You must have noticed the 'townsperson' underneath his name, right?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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@The Fonz:
As you may have noticed, there's an entire section of this site devoted to newbie games. If you play in a regular game, you take your chances just like everyone else, in my opinion. I am happy to try to teach people, but I'm not patronising new players and condescendingly changing my playstyle and attitudes in order to shelter them from real play when they feel ready to play in a non-newbie game. It's fine if you choose to do so, but both of you are making the classic newbie mistake of overreacting to one vote as if it were the end of the world, and I'm guessing you don't regard yourself as a newbie, Fonz.
In addition, if the only reason for a vote, in your view, is to cause someone to be lynched, that's a pretty odd belief in itself. I don't agree at all, and I doubt many players who engage in scumhunting tactics would agree either.
Egruntz is not the only person with "Townsperson" under his name in this game. He is, however, the only person who came into the game and began sharply criticising other players for engaging in an activity he doesn't like or approve of, while at the same time arguing for a no-lynch, which might be a newbie mistake, as you say. By your logic, I should not have engaged him at all on this topic, for fear of provoking a "newbie meltdown", whatever that is. He didn't seem uncertain, or unsure of himself, and he deserved to be addressed on that level. Your protective attitude toward him doesn't seem to be justified, considering that he seems quite able to make articulate arguments on his own behalf.
By extension, your argument indicates that if someone engages a "Townsperson" in argument and votes for them for making something you consider a newbie mistake (and egruntz clearly still does not view his argument for no-lynch as a mistake, since he is still arguing for it), that you will view this as scummy. I don't agree with this, though obviously that's your right. Most, possibly all (some are lurking a bit still) of the players in this game (including egruntz) have demonstrated the ability to play Mafia well enough that I don't see any need to condescend to them or change my playstyle to accommodate them. It seems a little high-handed that you feel that thjs would be necessary."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I stated this:
In response to this:Bookitty wrote:In addition, if the only reason for a vote, in your view, is to cause someone to be lynched, that's a pretty odd belief in itself. I don't agree at all, and I doubt many players who engage in scumhunting tactics would agree either.
And you respond like this:The Fonz wrote:
Surely.Bookitty wrote: Surely. Do you think that the only use of a vote is to cause someone to be lynched?
You said it, therefore it's not a straw man. I didn't make it up. You said, in your own post, in direct response to what I said, "Surely."The Fonz wrote:Don't you dare try to lecture me. That's the classic strawman. You attribute to me a position I have never once advocated, (that the only reason to vote is to cause a lynch) and indeed you still feel it necessary to appeal to authority to knock down the strawman.
Is there some other meaning of surely I've missed out on somewhere?
And I wouldn't dream of trying to lecture anyone. I get that you've claimed this role, and I wouldn't try to take it away from you."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Hmmm. I don't see a reason why scum would point this out, especially since the tags got messed up in liamcool's post and it wasn't obvious.egruntz wrote:No, I'm the one that said that, not liam.
unvote"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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My reasoning is more this, CKD:
Egruntz was under a bit of pressure, at least from his own stated perspective. My vote was on him. Other votes were on Liamcool mistakenly for a quote that egruntz made. Thus the logical assumption would be that if egruntz owned up to the quote, that those votes would devolve to him, at least in my view.
Waiting a bit, lurking, might allow something else to develop to distract the town. At that time, pointing this out would perhaps be a less risky move. Our attention has been pretty well focussed on egruntz in one way or another, and that doesn't seem like a good thing for scum, nor something they would willingly bring upon themselves, as egruntz did here.
I could be wrong, but my feeling was that scum would have lurked and waited for someone else to point it out, if that was going to happen anyway. It wasn't an obvious thing, due to the tag failure, so it wouldn't have made egruntz seem any more suspicious in my eyes anyway.
Just my opinion though."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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These questions open to anyone:
Do you feel egruntz' comments more reflect on his inexperience on this particular site, or on his probable alignment?
@Disciple Slayer: Why were you voting for The Fonz, when your later post and vote argues that you agreed with his reasoning?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Liamcool, what made you think Mills might be a lyncher?
So far as I know minimally flavoured has to do with night scenes and role PMs, not the roles themselves. In a closed setup, who knows?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I don't understand the reasoning for the votes on The Fonz. He and I had what I view as an honest disagreement about how to deal with someone suggesting no-lynch on day one. I didn't get any scummy vibes from him in his arguments against me, and his vote for me was no more threatening than my vote on egruntz.
I don't have any certainty as to whether egruntz's stance on no-lynch was a true newb-tell, or a newb-scum tell, and some other things he's done seem fairly pro-town to me. I'm waiting to see more from him before I draw any conclusions in that regard.
I dislike the meta-game confrontation between Mills and Disciple Slayer. If I had to place a vote right now, I would put it on one of them. Carrying over hostility from one game to another isn't an acceptable tactic. Mills initiated that subject, but Disciple Slayer joined in with a certain fervor (possible scum distancing, I don't rule that out) and additionally voted The Fonz with reasons to come later, then shifted his vote to me with an argument that while reasonable on the surface, makes no sense given the timing of his previous vote on The Fonz. I'm not certain which I find more vote-worthy, but as I said, if I placed a vote right now, it would be on one of these two.
For everyone else, I either have a fairly pro-town read or not enough information to derive any opinion. I'm not going to list who I think is most pro-town, because in my view that's more useful to scum than to the town, but I am hoping that after the holidays we'll get a lot more input from people who haven't weighed in on the debate yet."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Well, the charitable interpretation of pushing for no-lynch is that you are new to the site and thus don't see the disadvantage of giving the scum a free nightkill without any fear of being lynched. Additionally if we all agreed to a no-lynch on day one, no productive discussion could result from bandwagons, watching who was on the lynch, who pushed against it, etc. I think this has been explained to you by more capable and experienced players than me.egruntz wrote:Why is it, that just because I think differently than you, that I'm automatically either a newbie or scum?Really.
The uncharitable explanation is that scum would benefit from a no-lynch day one. They would not run the risk of being lynched, nor have to defend their actions at a later date regarding their behaviour on the day one lynch, they would not have to make arguments that later events would prove false... in general, they'd get a nightkill for free, and so it would be a beneficial move for scum if they could persuade town to a no-lynch. That's why pushing for a no-lynch is widely regarded as a scumtell except in very specific (and not currently applicable) circumstances.
So, that's why, egruntz."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Do you really feel that we aren't getting any information out of day one so far? Is it your experience that town can ever come up with a final and positive conclusion that a certain person is mafia before that person is dead?egruntz wrote:... OR, it could just be a specific's playstyle. We aren't getting any information out of day one so far, besides "everyone bandwagon ____, he's scum for not being active!" and so and so.
As I mentioned before, it would be best to not lynch at all if we all can't come up with a final and positive conclusion that a certain person is mafia. And I don't really feel like repeating myself beyond that."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I was debating back and forth on this. But after a reread of Mills vs. Disciple Slayer in isolation, the choice became a lot simpler.
unvote; vote Disciple Slayer"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Not why I'm voting for him. I didn't like his unreasoned vote for the Fonz (reasons to come later), and then his switch to me with a well reasoned argument, but all well after the egruntz situation was more or less discussed through. Do a reread of Disciple Slayer in isolation, and you'll see why I chose to vote him over Mills. His tone and level of participation have varied widely, but neither has been good.Panzerjager wrote:FoS: everyone voting for Diciple SlayerBandwagoning and calling Mills an idiot doesn't make him scum and it seems that people are just jumping on him cause he is an easy lynch.
The fact that Mills and Disciple Slayer had such a deep hostility toward each other early on, but now seem to have forgotten all about it, makes me think they're scum distancing. So Mills has not dropped off my scumlist. Quite the reverse."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Actually, in a recently ended game that you replace-modded, Fonz, scum did suggest no-lynch day one. He turned out to be the Godfather."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I've seen scum push no-lynch day one. The same discussion came about (no scum would be this stupid!) but then the scum did a variety of other stupid things and got himself lynched. No-lynch is beneficial to scum. PUSHING no-lynch hardly ever is.
I voted for egruntz in the first place because I felt it would underscore my seriousness about not wanting this discussion to become the primary focus of day one. I did not do it because I thought he was scum. (He may be scum. But I did not have sufficient evidence then, nor do I now, to lynch him.) Nonetheless he continued to push this, and we're still discussing it. The discussion is not helpful to town, and actually provides a lot of opportunities for scum to look "pro-town" by objecting to it, while not risking much in return.
We're not going to no-lynch. Egruntz arguing for it is not pro-town, but neither is it scummy necessarily. We need to get past this.
On a reread, Mills strikes me as extremely inconsistent on the whole. I disliked his bringing up of another game in order to attack Disciple Slayer (I think I said that already), provoking a nasty interchange that really gained town nothing. Bringing up other games is bad play, and has nothing to do with a player's alignment in THIS game.
Does some role speculation. Agrees with Xylthixlm that some players are posting without giving any opinions. Argues with me that he wasn't attacking Disciple Slayer because of another game. although Mills brought up the other game as a reason to do so in the first place. Complains because I didn't address his post regarding this (short answer, I didn't believe Mills, and I wanted to see what other people thought of his self-contradiction).
Attacks CKD for "gut" voting for him, saying "I didn't particularly want to bring it up since it would probably just be viewed as OMGUS" -- why would town care about how they were viewed, if they had a valid concern? Then when CKD responds, says:
Which is oddly conciliatory considering his previous attitudes on the vote.Mills wrote:ckd, I know a lot of people have problems with gut votes, but I certainly don't. I like to make them too. Often I will give the reason and people will call me stupid and more often than not we will later find out I was correct. I know that the reasons are often a 'stretch' but I think it is important to give one anyway.
Attacks Dark Ermac for suggesting a random lynch (paraphrased heavily, but that's the gist of it). Then, when Dark Ermac is attacked for stating someone is definitely a townie, says this:
I don't think anyone except Dark Ermac can know exactly what Dark Ermac meant there. Certainly in my view the second case against DE is less of a stretch than Mills' first case, but Mills defends him here, while attacking him fairly strongly in the first, less strong case. Asks for the town's input on top suspects, without giving his own (generally this looks to me like scum looking for ideas), and now we're up to the end of the thread.Mills wrote:Don't get me wrong - I think I was the first to jump on DE for some earlier post with the same problem - but I'm just not feeling it here. I don't think he's unequivocally saying that he knows that egruntz is town. I think he is saying that he knows (for lack of a better word). It's just something deep down inside that he knows to be true (or something he thinks he knows). He's just using the wrong word but its more the fault of the English language than his own.
Something isn't adding up here. So I'm going tounvote; vote Mills."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Bringing up ongoing games is against the rules. You do note that your posts were edited to leave out those references?Mills wrote:I already said that other games have nothing to do with alignment in this game. Thanks for agreeing with me. I'm not sure how a nasty interchange is suspicious because it 'gained town nothing'. I'm not sure it lost us anything either. I don't see how either of these add up to inconsistencies either. I, however, disagree that bringing up other games is bad play and I am surprised to see you say this since they can provide a wealth of meta-information among other things.
I invite anyone to reread Mills' posts in isolation as I did and note his shifts in behaviour. I did read your posts, as should be obvious by the fact that I did a post-by-post-analysis of them. Your response here is vague, to say the least.Mills wrote:You're pushing it to call my comments 'role speculation'. Someone suggested I was a lyncher and I queried whether that were even possible. I am new to this particular site and it is hard for me to get a handle on things when the games don't stick to the forum rules. You are then incorrect on your further comments on DS. I will not bother to reiterate why - suffice to say that perhaps you should read my earlier posts more closely. As I write this, I wonder why I am bothering to reply to your post. You obviously won't read it because I can only assume you didn't read the last one.
Fair enough, but the difference in tone was notable, and I think not just to me.Mills wrote:Again, you obviously fail at reading. As I stated previously, I have no problem with gut votes but I do have a problem whenabsolutely no reasonis provided and when they are made my a player who has submitted little to no content in this thread to date (and I think ckd would agree with this assessment). Regardless, I didn't attack ckd, I just asked for his reason. He is perfectly entitled to his vote, and I didn't particularly feel that he needed to unvote it (he is welcome to put it back on if he thinks it best), I just wanted a reason!
I am noting the difference in tone between your previous, not very substantial, but sustained attack on Dark Ermac, compared with this one where you feel you know what Dark Ermac is trying to say and you are defending him. Your previous attack was not consistent with this defense. Did you think he was scum based on your previous attack? What allayed your suspicions so much that you felt you could answer for him on this more serious charge?Mills wrote:No shit. Welome to Mafia - the game where no one can know exactly what anyone else is thinking unless they are the person thinking it. Welcome to a game built on the premise of makingjudgement decisionsabout what they are thinking or implying in their posts. This is the equivalent of calling me suspicious for playing the game of Mafia.
You're claiming the position of town leader now?Mills wrote:I have made my position perfectly clear on several players (DS, DE, ckd) and will be looking to do a re-read in the near future and see if I can drum anything else up. I can't say I am surprised that you bring this up however. No one likes a town leader but someone had to get this thread back on track.
Accuse someone of being overly conciliatory, and they resort to being nasty. Never fails.Mills wrote:Don't quit your day job."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I believe this to be a typo but it still made me laugh.Phate wrote:We should not be lynching antitown players. We should be lynching protown players. I completely agree with the Fonz on this one."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I wouldn't say I am one of the better players on the site, but I would advise you to read some more games, lose some of the arrogance, and try not to take every attack personally. Angry, defensive players always make themselves look guilty, whether they are or not.Mills wrote:Yeah Bookitty, continue to make misrepresented arguments. It's A++ scum-hunting! How do I get as good at this game as you?
I realise you were just being nasty, but it deserved a serious answer."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Sadly, it's also a very common scumtell. Town tends to be calmer because they can win even if they're lynched. They have no scumbuddies to protect. Scum tends to melt down because when they die every post they have made is scoured and interpreted for connections, lack of connections, content. They're RIGHT to fear death, and they do fear it more than town.
So, why did you react so angrily and with such condescension, Mills?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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What do you think of the inconsistencies in Mills' reactions that I pointed out earlier?The Fonz wrote:
I smell a 'too defensive' argument...Bookitty wrote:Sadly, it's also a very common scumtell. Town tends to be calmer because they can win even if they're lynched. They have no scumbuddies to protect. ?
Anger, if anything, is a town tell."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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You don't find it odd that Mills attacked Dark Ermac pretty strongly on a semantics issue, and then defended him on a much more telling one?
Hmmm."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I think you've exactly done that to me for having a different opinion than you, Mills. You've insulted my playing ability on two separate occasions for having a different opinion from you, and I didn't insult you, even in return.Mills wrote:Youfind it odd because:
(i)youdon't share my opinion over DE's posts;
(ii)youconsider the second iteration to be the more telling of the two;
You're barking up a subjective tree. You can't villify people for having a different opinion. It's simply erroneous logic.
So how do you justify that behaviour? Is it simply "erroneous logic"?
And whom did I vilify, exactly? I'd like to see quotes supporting that."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Do you know what the word "vilify" means? I made a case against you, because I found some of your actions questionable. In your own misspelled words,
And yes, admitting that you're resorting to ad hominem "because I felt like it" makes your arguments seem far more reasonable. Well done.Mills wrote:Welome to Mafia
Calling someone's accusations "laughable" does not a defense make. Neither do random insults and refusing to reasonably address a case made against you. It just makes it look like you don't have an answer, which in fact may be true."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I still regard Mills as the scummiest, and his exit from the game doesn't improve that any. Additionally, his reason for leaving seems like a very weak excuse.
I feel for whoever his replacement is."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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@Xylthixlm: I did say that pushing a no-lynch is scummy. That said, I tend to think it's usually a newbtell, regardless of alignment. I got from your arguments that you disagree with that, but I don't think it's a certain tell of egruntz's scum alignment, and I'm just not going to agree with that. I voted for him to underscore my seriousness, not to indicate that I had any certainty he was scum.
As to Mills and Disciple Slayer, I wondered based on their antagonism and over-the-top theatrics at each other (based on another game, something Mills tried to deny, even though it was in his first post on the subject) if they were scum together and staging a scene. That would be a pretty big scumtell, if it were true. I still don't know if that was the case. A meta read on Mills shows that he has acted pretty anti-town even as town, though.
This is an inconsistency, though, the kind you said you didn't see. Attacking someone on a minor semantics problem, and then defending them for a major one, is an inconsistency, and one that I felt he needed to address. The Fonz said I would make a "too defensive" argument against Mills, something I didn't do, but I do think Mills' reaction to the case I made against him was extreme. I expected Mills to defend himself. I did not expect him to resort to ad hominem and then ask for replacement. I'm not certain if that's indicative of his alignment, based on my meta of him, but I am certain that the points I made against him remain unaddressed.Xylthixlm wrote:
Both are sematics issues. Scum are less likely change their minds than townies. Mills's behavior says nothing until we get more info.Bookitty wrote:You don't find it odd that Mills attacked Dark Ermac pretty strongly on a semantics issue, and then defended him on a much more telling one?
Hmmm."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Regardless of whether you agree with my case on Mills (and I do think his differing reactions are odd), at least you see the inconsistencies now, since you've addressed some of them and excused them as "Definitely a semantics issue."Xylthixlm wrote:
I don't see them.Bookitty wrote:What do you think of the inconsistencies in Mills' reactions that I pointed out earlier?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I think that if Mills truly believed that Dark Ermac was scummy in the first instance, and had real suspicions of him, then he should have seen the second one as confirmation of his previous suspicions. Instead, he decided that the second similar (and worse, in my view) "semantics" issue was not suspicious. This seems to indicate that his first suspicions were more feigned than real, since those first suspicions should have resulted in an "I've got my eye on you" attitude, even if he didn't put an IGMEOY on Dark Ermac.
What, in your view, have I done that is similar, Xylthixlm?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I found Disciple Slayer pretty scummy, for his inconsistent votes first for The Fonz and then for me (either would have been okay by itself, but the timing and the sequence of the two were really scummy).
I think it's possible Disciple Slayer and Mills were distancing. I've already made my case on Mills, and it appears to me that he replaced out of the game because he didn't want to answer any questions. (It sort of goes back to the situation with egruntz, where The Fonz suggested I was trying to provoke a newbie meltdown; but at what point is it acceptable to hold someone accountable for their behaviour? I did not think my questions were unfair or especially provoking.)
My vote will stay on Mills at least for now because I'm more convinced that he's scum, but I could easily see Disciple Slayer as his scumpartner due to the over-the-top interaction between the two of them. If my vote was not on Mills, it would be on Disciple Slayer.
@ModIs Mills being replaced?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Okay, while the site is actually functioning, I will
unvote; vote Eteocles
I very much dislike doing this without hearing from Eteocles, so
@mod:Can you please prod Eteocles? We're under deadline and one of the main suspects is not posting at all. Is it possible to get an extension on the deadline in this case, pending replacement?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I had a more pragmatic reason. I'd really rather not lynch a powerrole, and since he'll have no chance to claim, we don't know if we're doing that.
Still, if he won't be replaced and he won't answer prods, I don't see much other choice."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Okay, I have a question. I'm not investigation proof to my knowledge, so that basically means there's a Mafia roleblocker, right? Is there any other real possibility? (I don't know of any pro-town roles who could have prevented my investigation, nor any reason why they'd want to.)
I agree with the suspicions of Dark Ermac, but I was thinking there might be a Xyl/Fonz scumteam before, so I'm not sure about that since I was badly wrong about The Fonz.
Xyl really didn't address Patch (Vollkan, now), Sangy (Skruffs) or sensfan (Rishi) (there may be others that I missed, as well, and please point them out if you notice it), but that might be a factor of them not posting much. I don't really agree with Vollkan's read on the discussion between myself and Mills, but since Mills' replacement has claimed cop, it's pretty much moot at this point.
The reason I became suspicious of Xyl has to do with the timing (and weird abandonment) of his argument with me about Mills' opinion of Dark Ermac. Xyl brought up some suspicions of me regarding my argument with Mills, an argument that he could be pretty sure I'd respond to, right after egruntz's post, quoted here:
Which might have been distancing, and certainly isn't a very good case against Xylthixlm. Given what we know now about DS/Eteocles and Xyl, it might seem pretty obvious, and Xyl might have seen it as far too obvious a linkage. That would explain Xyl's arguing with me back and forth for a while, and then abruptly abandoning it with this:egruntz wrote:Here's my suspicions, in the order of greatest to least:
1. Disciple Slayer
2. Mills
3. Xylthixlm
Not much, but something. I'm still most suspicious of Disciple Slayer due to jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon. As for Mills, it's very suspicious that he leaves when we were getting on him. Not having the style to play mafia isn't a good enough reason to just run out.
As for Xylth... IDK, I don't like him ;o
No, just playing bro. Bandwagons; but no as bad as DS.
And later, this is a point in Dark Ermac's favour:Xylthixlm wrote:No, I see your point now. Thanks.
Additionally, Xylthixlm's last post was this:Xylthixlm wrote:Dark Ermac: In other words, you're afraid to tell us who you think is scummy, because doing so might make you look scummy. That's pretty scummy in itself.
Which seems odd, because he'd already taken a pretty hard look at egruntz already. I'm not sure why egruntz is included here. My guess is that Xyl was distancing.Xylthixlm wrote:I plan to take a hard look at Dark Ermac, egruntz, and Panzerjager tomorrow.
unvote; vote egruntz
Additionally, egruntz hasn't posted since January 16th.
@mod, could you please prod egruntz? Thanks!"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I think (not certain, but I think) that Panzerjager got confused and thought that a godfather would show up as "no result", rather than innocent. That's not been my experience, but he did retract his statement once he considered it. (About three minutes later.)
If I'm wrong, I suspect Panzerjager will correct me, but I thought he just made a mistake and then realised it."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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If there truly are two scum groups, then looking at how people interacted with Xyl and Egruntz won't be all that helpful. It also seems really strange, considering their behaviour looked exactly like distancing to me.
For now, I'm going to
unvote; vote OhGodMyLife"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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OhGodMyLife:
OhGodMyLife wrote:QFT. I imagine egruntz is trying to use his mind and his vote to help the town in the way he thinks is best. It just so happens he has a different view of how day one should go down from the majority here.
(followed by a vote on Xylthixlm)OhGodMyLife wrote:Xylthixlm, you've been making me uneasy lately. Could just be your playstyle, but I'd like to hear more out of you that just one liners, and you've been way too focused on the way that snaps has been writing rather than whats actually going on in the game. Also this:
really struck me the wrong way. Lets leave the stupid people alone and go after the scummy people, shall we?Xylthixlm wrote:Sufficiently bad idiots can be antitown without being scum.
These posts in particular seem to be trying to divert attention away from egruntz. Additionally, in the last one, you did the thing that made me suspicious of Xylthixlm in the first place, which is to make a very strong attack and then just abandon it and pronounce yourself "reassured".OhGodMyLife wrote:OK, Xyl, you've more than reassured me, so thank you for addressing that. The biggest reason for my vote was because I think the DS bandwagon and constant talk of egruntz' no-lynch theory were consuming too much of the town's attention and I wanted to get people to look elsewhere."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I've given my reasons for my OGML vote. (I don't remember offhand if anyone else had voted him.) The only other reason I have goes to WIFOM about the night kill and Fonz's suspicion of OGML perhaps being a reason for his death, but that depends on OGML being scum with Xylthixlm, not egruntz (assuming we're right about two scum groups) and I can't find any connections there.
I think a clearer way to say what I meant is that *I* haven't found much of use in looking at how people interacted with Xylthixlm. And I have the opposite problem with egruntz... basically all the interactions I'm looking at there can be taken as legitimate bad reaction to his horrible no-lynch plan, or defending someone who is clearly a newbie... I can't derive much from it either. Nearly all of us had one reaction or the other to egruntz, and I don't have a clear idea whether scum would distance or defend such play. If you see something different, Snaps, I'd be glad to hear it, but I'm not gleaning much I think is definitive or useful in either case personally.
Have you seen any such connections? If so, what information have you derived?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Hmmm. I would guess it was because I voted him in the first place, and because I was one of his most active and vocal critics. For instance, Skruffs, he'd have had difficulty quoting your predecessor more, because your predecessor hardly posted at all."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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According to your theory, insofar as I can follow it (and correct me if I'm wrong) I was scumbuddies with Xylthixlm, distancing with him during our argument, and then I pushed a case on egruntz that he was scumbuddies with Xyl and was trying to lynch town. But in order to know who egruntz's scumteam was targetting, I'd have to be buddies with egruntz, not Xylthixlm, and so why would I have pushed a case on my buddy when I didn't have to? If there are two scum teams, as we now believe, then they are in direct competition with each other, and they would NOT be bussing right now.
So your argument depends on me knowing that Xylthixlm was killed by one of the scumteams. He wasn't killed by his own scumteam, so you're arguing that I was scum with egruntz and bussed him, since the only way I could know that egruntz's scumteam killed Xyl is if I was on egruntz's scumteam. I don't think scum would be bussing when they know there's two scumteams and they lose if the other one has more people at the end. If there are two scumteams, then it's a safe bet that two out of the three nightkills were scum-kills and the third was ... whatever, so speculating on who might have killed who isn't proof of anything.
You have it backwards. I gave my reasons for thinking OGML might be scum with egruntz earlier, and I was looking for reasons for the nightkills. The Fonz was very combative with OGML, so perhaps that's a reason for OGML to want The Fonz dead. Therefore, it's WIFOM, as in fact I said, because it's a small additional reason why MY vote is on OGML, but it wasn't the bulk of my case against him.
Panzer, if you think I'm scum with inside knowledge about who killed who, which scumteam would that make me a member of, and why? Because your logic only makes sense if I was part of both."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I made my case on OGML without mentioning my WIFOM thoughts about The Fonz's nightkill. I don't know who killed The Fonz. I don't see a reason for a vig to do so, but I was suspicious he was scum with Xyl, as I stated previously, so I was wrong about that. I wasn't considering two scum groups at the time because there hadn't been any reason to do so. And additionally, I don't know how you can know it's two groups of three, rather than two groups of two... why are you assuming that?
Your logic is escaping me. According to you, I'm in egruntz's scumgroup, and ... so I accused him of being scum with Xyl, and pushed for his lynch, so I could bus him? WHY would I do that as scum? Would I WANT to even the odds for the other scumteam? How would that be helpful to my team in the least?
Why would scum bus one of their own when there's another scumteam in the equation? What is the advantage to doing so at this point, in your view?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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This is just ridiculous, Panzer. I was the one who brought UP the idea that egruntz and Xyl were scumbuddies. I made the case, I pushed it, and you didn't even know I had an ARGUMENT against him? Did you read anything during the last day of the game?Panzerjager wrote:The advantage is to raise one's perception as town. Bussing your teammate is a viable option because it makes you look town. It would help your team by not getting you lynched by the town because they think you are town. You weren't the only one who accused him and until you mentioned it I didn't even know you had an arguement against egruntz. Again you'd do it because it'd make you look town.
Your argument is complete nonsense, and you admit you don't even KNOW what happened yesterday. I ask you again, what is the advantage to a scum TEAM to bus one of its members as soon as it finds out there are two scumteams? How does that help a scum TEAM to win?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Okay, this was right after my case on egruntz. So... you didn't know I made an argument against him?Panzerjager wrote:I'll second that question rishi, although i think some of his analysis(in the post 427) I don't necessarily agree with, one being voting OGML.
I'm in consensus with BooKitty. I feel we had it right and we let it slip right through are fingersUnvote,Vote:Egruntz\
At this point, I think if DE is scum, there are probably 2 scum groups, Egruntz and Xyl and maybe one other, in "Group A" and DE and company in "Group B".
O RLY?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Nightkill speculation is always very WIFOMy. I made my case. I don't think it's particularly strong, but making a case, voting, and then watching reactions is about the only way to derive connections. If we have two scumgroups, you're going to have scumbuddies scrambling to defend each other and/or attack people for attacking their buddy.OhGodMyLife wrote:Bookitty, I've given you my defense to your initial post against me, and you've said yourself that the bit about Fonz's death is extremely WIFOM, so what else can I do to convince you? Have you got anything to say to my last post? You've gone on to discuss the situation several times with various people, but haven't addressed me on the topic again, yet you still keep your vote on me.
I stated already I wasn't getting much from analysing Xylthixlm (remember, I thought the Fonz might be his buddy at the time, so that's how far off I was) OR by analysing egruntz. So I made the best case I had, which was inspired by a reread of The Fonz and trying to figure out who would be motivated to kill him.
My thought process (and this should NOT be construed as confirmed fact, it's my OPINION only) was that egruntz might have looked like an easy lynch with The Fonz out of the way (Fonz was his main defender) and The Fonz was also leaning on you fairly heavily Day One, OGML. I am guessing that the scum didn't know there were two scumgroups. Thus, if you were scum with egruntz, it might have looked like a two-fer. Egruntzscum wouldn't have a reason to kill The Fonz, because The Fonz was defending him, so that makes egruntz look like town; The Fonz was leaning on you, and you weren't under much suspicion. By killing him, you'd lose your harshest critic, and egruntz would look more town because his defender flipped town.
This is speculation on my part. It's not fact. But it's some of the internal reasoning behind my vote on you. It's one vote, I'm not calling for a bandwagon. I'm not sure why you're reacting so badly to one vote, OGML, but there's my reasoning for it.
As for Panzer, this is the second time he's decided I'm scum (the first time was when the investigation on me was apparently roleblocked and he decided that meant I was the Godfather) with pretty shoddy reasoning. Since it seems pretty likely that we have two scum groups, I'm going to tentatively say that in my view he's not paying good attention to the game, rather than behaving scummily. It's possible he's scum trying to set up a fake distancing thing with me in case he gets lynched, but that doesn't seem likely to me. If Panzer is scum, I see no way in which he could be part of egruntz's scumgroup given that he agreed with my reasoning nearly immediately. And he's not choosing easy targets the way I think scum would do.
I clear Vollkan as part of egruntz's scumteam for the same reason. I think Vollkan is town anyway, but I am fairly certain he isn't scum on the same team with egruntz.
I'm suspicious of Snaps and OGML for another reason, though; the three people who voted egruntz AFTER he admitted to being scum were Korlash, Snaps, and OGML. I do NOT think scum would bus their teammate, knowing there were two scumgroups. But once he admitted it? Why not take the townie points for being in on the lynch?
Just some thoughts. And no offense taken, Skruffs."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I'm happy with my vote where it is, but I also see and agree with the logic behind a Snaps lynch for reasons I previously stated."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Have you read any of my previous posts, Rishi?Rishi wrote:
Oh... and speaking of wishy-washiness (not to mention that this post is awfully agreeable).Bookitty wrote:I'm happy with my vote where it is, but I also see and agree with the logic behind a Snaps lynch for reasons I previously stated.
What is your point with this? That I agree with and approve of lynching either of my top two suspects?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I'd like an answer to this, please, Rishi.Bookitty wrote:
Have you read any of my previous posts, Rishi?Rishi wrote:
Oh... and speaking of wishy-washiness (not to mention that this post is awfully agreeable).Bookitty wrote:I'm happy with my vote where it is, but I also see and agree with the logic behind a Snaps lynch for reasons I previously stated.
What is your point with this? That I agree with and approve of lynching either of my top two suspects?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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You're misunderstanding the point of this. I think that not voting for him before his scumclaim, and then suddenly piling on after, is a scumtell. Avoiding taking any position on a serious wagon either for or against, and then voting immediately after such a claim, seems pretty fishy. Egruntz's scumteam would have been aware that there were two scumteams; Xylthixlm's would not necessarily have been. So anyone on Egruntz's scumteam would have been really reluctant to vote him OR defend him, and would have been anxious both to avoid committing to a position on his lynch, and to be on his wagon once that lynch was inevitable, so as to distance to some extent. I do think an innocent voted that way; Korlash was the doc, and he did so.Snaps_the_Pirate wrote:Bookitty : Why do you think voting for Erguntz after he claimed is a scum tell? Don't you think an innocent might also have voted that way? Of all those who voted after his claim, why do you find me the most suspicious?
On what are you basing the idea that I find you the most suspicious of all those who voted after his claim, precisely, Snaps?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Rishi, out of curiosity, do you think it's likely I'd more likely be scum with egruntz's group or with Xylthixlm's?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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I'm still waiting for an answer to this.Bookitty wrote:Rishi, out of curiosity, do you think it's likely I'd more likely be scum with egruntz's group or with Xylthixlm's?
Additionally, I think it's interesting that Antithesis wasn't nightkilled, but two of the people Rishi said he believed were solidly town were.
Perhaps the two scumgroups each thought that the other was going to target the cop, and didn't want to waste their kill on someone the other scum would target anyway. It's possible. I think Antithesis is confirmed, because 1) the back-up cop is dead; there'd not be one if we didn't have a cop; 2) the existence of a back-up cop means that there's not likely another cop; and 3) there's no counterclaim of cop given 1) and 2).
Vollkan, what do you think of Panzerjager?
Snaps, what do you think of Rishi? (Not his predecessor; Rishi himself.)
Phate, what do you think of... well... anyone?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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All right. Looking at this game from the normal perspective of hunting scum isn't working exactly the way it should for me, so I'm going to line it out like this:
I'm certain Antithesis is town; fairly sure (but not certain) that Vollkan and Panzerjager are, as well. That leaves five suspects containing four scum (assuming two scumgroups of three, which seems a decent assumption). Phate and Liamcool are lurking. Xyzzy is lurking as well, though not as seriously as the first two. Rishi is pushing a lot of suspicions a lot of ways, but if he were lynched and came up scum, I can see a link (mentioned previously by someone else) between Rishi and Snaps. I don't see any other definite links.
@modCan we get a prod on Phate, please? Thank you."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Rishi:
The fact that you're pushing suspicions in lots of directions is a point in your favour. Your predecessor lurked until he got replaced; that's hardly winning you townie points by default.
I can see a link between you and Snaps, and so it becomes more likely to me that you are scum with him; but your own postings are the reason you haven't gotten a vote from me.
How do you feel I've defended Vollkan? Simply by stating that I think he's town?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I'm not sure of the point of these comments.Rishi wrote:Saying someone is town is a defense, of sort. Of course, no one is really attacking vollkan.
And let's be fair. My predecessor made ONE POST total. This doesn't suggest the behavior of a lurker, but of someone who never really played. It's likely he left the site shortly after signing up for this game.
Do you feel people should be attacking Vollkan? Do you feel that being active and thus on all of the lynches, including the one that hit scum, is a definitive scumtell? Is it equally telling against both Vollkan and myself?
Do you think lurking is a valid scumtell, Rishi?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I've been in the game from the start. I've made arguments against the people who were lynched. I was on the lynch because I believed they were scum. I wasn't always right about that, but I was willing to line out my suspicions and stand behind them.
Is it your experience that scum tend to be on all the wagons?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Snaps: I cannot reconcile the fact that Panzerjager was the first to suggest two scum teams, and the fact that he agreed with me and pushed egruntz's lynch, with the thought that he could be on Egruntz's team. How do you explain those facts?
Rishi: We've only lynched one scum so far; I was instrumental in that. If your best evidence against anyone is "They were on all the lynches so far", then maybe you could look at people who are defending others and trying to deflect from their lynch, rather than tunnelling on people for something that isn't even a scumtell.
Oh, and while I think of it, precisely why is Vollkan less suspicious than me on the same evidence?"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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Panzer:
Reconcile: 4. to bring into agreement or harmony;make compatible or consistent: to reconcile differing statements; to reconcile accounts."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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I support this. I don't care who goes first.vollkan wrote:****PROPOSAL****
All players submit a scumdar giving at least 2 sentences per person. I will post mine first if the majority so wills it. Otherwise, I suggest random sequencing."Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."-
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Bookitty Jack of All Trades
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