Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Things I don't like:
Matt_S's removal of FOS to stop bandwagonning.
Battlemage's post 92 feel like a slip up to me. Vote stands.
Nemesis pushing the BM wagon for the OMGUS reason, not the "I don't believe his miller claim" reason.
Everyone attacking Rosso for saying something that he would say.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Let me respond:
Nemesis, you were pushing it earlier, which was what I was referring to.
Matt_S: The fact you used an FOS to do it was very sketchy. You weren't even really committed to the wagon. And your response about "not wanting to be connected" isn't helping.
Unvote, Vote Matt_S
Normally I don't like to cut established players slack for meta reasons, especially those based on what I deem bad play, but Matt_S is acting far too concerned about his every precise move. It seems kinda sketchy. And the over reacting scum tell rearing it's head.
Actually voting without reason is constructive as it's easy to spot trends. FOSing without reason is a lot more low key and inciting.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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I agree here, especially since he was one of the lurkers I noticed should start posting. Looks to me like an I'm here, I said something that pertains to the game, vote someone, go find other people to yell at.Rosso Carne wrote:TheSweatpantsNinja wrote:Unvote, vote oEJo.
Thoughts on the cult? BM's miller claim? Rosso Carne's excessive knowledge on the cult or lack thereof?
I feel like pressuring lurkers is something that needs to happen in this game. 30 people will make it very easy for people to skate through the game.vote:ninja
do NOT like posts like this.
Unvote, Vote ninjaAway Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Yeah, typically the flavor differences I've seen in generic games are
Straight up hand gun, Tommy gun / any automatic: Mafia
Most non-gun deaths: SK, very rarely body guard (typically involves the works professionally done if its body guard)
Poison: Can be cult depending on scenario
Snipe / Shotgun: Pro-town killing group, snipe can be other sometimes.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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0, its purpose has been served (AKA vig should not kill someone unless they have logical reason to believe they are scum).
I'm in the process of looking at everyone's posts. So far I'm not liking WhoMe? on top of the 2 people I already said (3 with watching BM to ensure claim). I'll look closer later to see exactly what it is I don't like.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Thats actually about 66% correct. There's an option C that he had some kind of role on top of miller thats exactly the same as option B otherwise.WhoMe? wrote:so basically either
BM is lying scum and is claiming miller to avoid investigations
or
BM is telling the truth, he's basically vanilla, but there's always going to be that uncertainty about him, and scum will try to play on that to get him lynched at a crucial moment
Am I missing something or is this the situation? If this is the case I may switch my vote to BM, because I don't see much of a down side.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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WTF, CKD, who mentioned a lyncher?
Miller have approximately 0% connection with lynchers. A miller is simply a pro-town player that shows up anti-town to cops. A lyncher wins if a specific person is lynched (not sure how it's chosen, never played a lyncher game or wanted it in a set up b/c IMO roles like that are pretty awful). No connection what so ever.
Millers know they are millers more often than not from what I have seen recently, however when I started playing it was common not to tell them.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Pretty much.curiouskarmadog wrote:the first game I played in where there was a Miller...he was the target of a Lyncher...I thought that was how it was always played out. If you find a Miller, then there was also a Lyncher..I guess I am wrong here and it was just specific to that game?Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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I agree it takes big balls to run that. However, I have lost enough times to these bluffs that I have realized there is only a certain extent you can let them fly before you rescind the get out of jail free pass, and BM's claim seemed really forced to me and his behavior since then has not convinced me otherwise.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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I am voting you because I believe you fall under option A, rather than B or C. The 66% wasn't referring to your case, but instead the fact WhoMe? had found 2/3 of the realistic possibilities.Battle Mage wrote:
This is a surprisingly perceptive post. It isnt especially a town-tell, but it shows me that you are thinking objectively at least. Of course, it also raises the question of, Why the hell are you voting for me, if you think this is a possibility?armlx wrote:
Thats actually about 66% correct. There's an option C that he had some kind of role on top of miller thats exactly the same as option B otherwise.WhoMe? wrote:so basically either
BM is lying scum and is claiming miller to avoid investigations
or
BM is telling the truth, he's basically vanilla, but there's always going to be that uncertainty about him, and scum will try to play on that to get him lynched at a crucial moment
Am I missing something or is this the situation? If this is the case I may switch my vote to BM, because I don't see much of a down side.
Im seeing hypocrisy here....
BM
There is the possibility you are town, and I've considered it. However, there are two things I also considered.
First, I believe that the estimated gain from lynching you is higher than the estimated loss. The gain from lynching you as lying scum is far greater than the loss from lynching you as town miller and visa versa, less gain for you living as town miller compared to loss of you living as mafia with claim.
Second, given your behavior I'm leaning that you are more likely scum safe claiming based on a metagame. I've never been more than about 75% certain throughout the game, but its enough given the first point.
The auto-clear thing is in regards to miller being unclearable by cop. B/c you claimed miller should not mean we accept you as town, as there's no realistic way to assure you are.
If someone who legitimately is a lot scummier than you are shows up, I'm willing to lynch them over you. However, at this point in time you are definitely the best lynch, and thus my vote stands until it is needed elsewhere.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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It's not like you can't change your mind and unvote later. Make some kind of note about who you think is scumm.Charity wrote:I really don't know who to vote for. It's kinda hard to decide.
This applies for everyone else who hasn't said much as well.
Don't think I've stated this so far, but my top 4 are (from least good to best lynch):
Sweatpants Ninja
Nanosauramo
Incognito
Battlemage
Incognito did one of the things I attacked BM for (BM is still up like 3 to 1 though, including the claim), and there for is scummier than the people I attacked for not doing things.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Imat? Seems like a newbie who hasn't become acquainted with the random voting phase.
I forgot to mention in my last post that Incongito also lurked before coming back to hop on the wagon. He's the only person so far that's close enough to overcome Battlemage as a legitimate lynch choice IMO. The other 2 are more FOS worthy, with definite potential for pressuring.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Can you please quantify said vote hopping? From my cursory reread, I'm seeing 2 random votes and 2 non-randoms, which is exactly the same as most people. Can you fill in the blanks as to how his actions were vote hopping, especially before his Charity vote which I can see as justifiable.Lloyd wrote:Lloyd wrote:I voted for VanDamien because he has been vote-hopping throughout today.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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I didn't realize he replaced in just looking at his posts. His first vote was towards the end of the random process, and his second looked random at first glance. I can see where you are coming from now that I realized that, but I still tink my top 4 are scummier.Lloyd wrote:armlx, I disagree with your assessment of "which is exactly the same as most people".
Looking at the vote count archive, Van Damien vote-hopped throughout the first 175 posts, more than anyone else.
If someone else vote-hopped with the same frequency, then I missed it.
When I filter the game by his posts ("Display posts ... by ..." at bottom of this web page), Van Damien seems to be jumping from one player to the next.
Even though he's currently voting for Charity, he's made two recent posts wanting to vote for thenextepsiode next.
You currently have your top 4 suspects, and I have my top suspect, and they aren't the same people. We probably won't agree / be on the same bandwagon until a deadline appears and one of us change our minds.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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I'm not convinced you don't have an additional role. I'm just more convinced its more probably that you don't or (specifically) are scum. The scum thing mainly comes from your first interaction with Nemesis, which I felt was absurd yet phrase well enough to garner support from less logical people and mainly following the oEJo started wagon, which is what the top 3 scummy people on my list did (You, oEJo, Incognito). Also the circumstances of your claim seem odd to me, but I'm going to have to think how to exactly qualify what I mean by this.
Scum safe claim of miller: How many people doubted you besides me? One, two? You see my point? (By safe claim I don't mean a mod granted one, but a role people believe to be confirmed as pro-town ie. scum claiming doctor + people not dying one night and no counterclaim). As for WIFOM being a null-tell.... I'm not so sure on that, though your claim is only a WIFOM on the metagame level.
I'm not auto accepting you as scum. I unvoted you after real discussion started and actually scummy people started to appear and revoted after you pinged my scumdar on top of my early suspicions. Just based on this, I'ld probably have you top 3 on my scuminess list with Incognito and oEJo, but combined with the miller claim I'm willing to put you ahead of them.
I'm fairly sure I enumerated my reasons why you were scummy in the post I voted you BTW. If they weren't clear enough, I'm sorry to cause confusion which prevented you from responding in a more apt manner to my points.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Yes, he is still a good choice for the lynch. He is still acting scummy on top of the claim. Other people could become better choices however, and definitely had he not acted just as scummy as those people have so far I would be 100% in favor of putting off his lynch for a later day under the understanding it has to happen eventually. However, like I said, it's pretty much to the point where I'ld be voting him regardless of calling his WIFOM.Incognito wrote: armlx, I've got a few questions for you related to your stance on Battle Mage. Your stance seems to be that because Battle Mage has claimed the role of Miller and we have no verifiable, fool-proof way of determining whether or not he's telling the truth, he should be lynched at some point in the game. Let's suppose Battle Mage does an exceptionally good job at what he has listed as one of his interests in his profile: scum hunting. Do you think he still would be a good candidate for the lynch?
*Bonus point* Why or why not?Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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He is? From what I had heard about him second hand he seemed like a far too well respected player for me to assume he would get repeatedly wagoned for being scummy.Khelvaster wrote:FoS: Armlix
Battle Mage is scummy in all his games. He tends to be a lightning rod for scum to start BWs on.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Incognito: Sorry, I didn't see that due to my simul post. I thought it was already there and I had read it already when checking the thread later.
What I mean is if the town came to an understanding that BM should not be allowed to live to the end game (as it just leads to really awkward scenarios any way you look at it) I would be willing to go after other people.
As for why he won't die, lets assume BM is town. Why would scum kill someone that the town will always doubt at least a little bit? He wouldn't die as scum either, as every scum group would think the same thing. More or less, either way he lives unless the town decides he should die, whether it be vig or lynch.
BM:
I'm not just condemning you for the Nemesis thing. You also followed oEJo's terrible logic bandwagon, as did Incognito. Notice who my top 3 scummy people are? Yeah, you 3.
Also, Nemesis is hardly a new player. Look at his join date, he's been around twice as long as you.
Imat:
So you are saying that because the odds of someone we are lynching are slanted towards them being town, we shouldn't push for their lynch? Isn't this always true (between 2/3 and 3/4 are pro-town in most games). My point is while BM claiming miller still means he is more likely to be pro-town, he is less likely to be pro-town than a random player, and even less likely given his behavior. If this isn't what you meant, feel free to clarify so I can respond to the correct question.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Imat:
I've already said I accept that BM could be the miller. However, while you feel he has answered questions, I feel he has only answered the irrelevant meta based ones while avoiding answering issues about his behavior in game. While you say his behavior isn't super scummy, the thing so far it relatively is the scummiest in game by a fair amount.
As for questions, feel free to ask more or point out the ones I have missed (as Incognito did) and I will answer them. I think I have answered all the ones so far and am just waiting on responses from those who asked them and other people to respond to continue those lines of discussion.
Also, 1 more question to BM and a statement
Look at your vote on Imat. At least to me, this seems like exactly like what you are trying to do. Set up someone who is clearly new and doesn't understand the specific style of play (ie random votes) here with arguments that only apply to those who choose to buck the current system knowingly.Battle Mage wrote:
especially in a game like this, were i scum, id much rather set up some newer players by drawing them into the limelight.
Now the question: Don't you think newer players would be more willing to accept an experienced player making a miller claim, where as experienced players would be more likely to consider and call a bluff as I have?Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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BM: Fair point on the experience player thing. However, again, what worries me is no one doubts you. I'm sorry my logic is circular here, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.
Edit in same post: Hmm, thought of good way to explain it.
Doubt:
Town: Lynched
Scum: Lynched
Same both ways.
No Doubt:
Town: Possible NK, possible live with attempt to make people doubt you
Scum: Less possible NK (via other killing group), claim you were let live to sow doubt when questioned.
Possible WIFOM both ways, probably resulting in you being lynched IMO.
Wagon: The wagon I'm referring to is the one on TNE, on the bottom of page 9 and top of page 10. Posts 215, 232, 233.
Imat vote: My point was Imat's play was clearly a new play mistake, and you attacking him for it with a vote seemed a lot like what you were describing where you draw out a dumb newbie mistake as a scum tell. Same with the TNE issue.
Newbs and miller claims: I'ld expect newbs to follow what a good player claims to be the meta choice as opposed to attacking him for it, where as experienced players are more likely to consider every possibility.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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New post for new topic branch:
Incognito is now second on my list to lynch again maybe over taking BM based on later actions. I just realized his vote on TNE was long enough (chronologically) after BM's for him to take into account one of the stronger players had signed onto the band wagon. I missed this as I read both posts at the same time every other time and didn't look at IRL time stamps, just relative in game ones. My suspicions increase 10 fold if BM turns out not mafia, and probably decrease if he does turn out mafia. If the town can agree to eventually off BM or as previously stated Incognito does something dumb, I will vote him.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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367 reworded:
The issue is regardless of BM being pro-town, mafia, whether we do/don't trust him, it all ends the same: his lynch. If we trust him now his lynch ends as a WIFOM choice, which could be awkward.
So, show of hands: Who thinks BM needs to be lynched, not necessarily today, but before the end game approaches.
BTWFOS Incognito. Just to make it easier to see on later review.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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I'm actually fairly sure you haven't posted anything about that. Please link/quote/give post #.Battle Mage wrote:Armlx, can you not read. Ive already pointed out why such a discussion now only benefits the mafia, as it allows and encourages them to invoke such a WIFOM situation. I dont see why you are still pushing this.
FoS: Armlx
If anything, my discussion is eliminating the WIFOM by dealing with it before it becomes a series of WIFOMs within WIFOMs. I'm even presenting the correct solution to said WIFOM.
All in all, this post borders on "Stop saying bad things about me or I'll OMGUS you".Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Again, I stated why he won't be killed last page. Please check that out before saying that.GSGold wrote:
He's probablyarmlx wrote:So, show of hands: Who thinks BM needs to be lynched, not necessarily today, but before the end game approaches.goingto be killed, due to his experience, but the fact you want him dead so intently is suspect, especially after his rational responses.
All of your posts seem to be leaning towards "let's hurry up and kill BM somehow". I agree with Khelvaster, BM has been a contributing, pro-town player, and you seem completely persistent in attempts to get him killed.All in all, this post borders on "Stop saying bad things about me or I'll OMGUS you".
Also, I believe you are putting words in my mouth. While I will not deny being a proponent of "Lets kill BM somehow", my stance is completely lacking in the "hurry up and do it" department. All I want is a town agreement he can not live beyond day 7ish (depending on how close to lynch or lose that is) so that the potential threat is nipped in the bud.
Also, I agree he has been contributing, however whether his contributions have been pro-town is where we disagree. If BM hadn't been so scummy after his claim, its very, very likely I would not be voting him. However, outside of his claim, he is either the 1st or second scummiest person, and when compounded with the claim.....Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Thank you for referencing that. I didn't remember that part of the post.Battle Mage wrote:
Armlx- here's that post you wanted. Tip number 1 for future games as scum-dont tell lies that are so easily traceable.Battle Mage wrote:
You are being hypocritical here. On the one hand, you say that i will live to endgame because people doubt me, and yet, it is you making this mistake, not everyone else. You are CAUSING the problems that you are so worried about. Odds on i wont survive till endgame anyway, as one of the more experienced players, i may get NKed despite my claim. But if i do, be glad because i might be the difference between victory and defeat.armlx wrote:Incognito: Sorry, I didn't see that due to my simul post. I thought it was already there and I had read it already when checking the thread later.
What I mean is if the town came to an understanding that BM should not be allowed to live to the end game (as it just leads to really awkward scenarios any way you look at it) I would be willing to go after other people.
As for why he won't die, lets assume BM is town. Why would scum kill someone that the town will always doubt at least a little bit? He wouldn't die as scum either, as every scum group would think the same thing.
Ah good, we appear to be getting somewhere. Please can you link me to this, or explain more fully?Armlx wrote: BM:
I'm not just condemning you for the Nemesis thing. You also followed oEJo's terrible logic bandwagon, as did Incognito. Notice who my top 3 scummy people are? Yeah, you 3.
BM
Your logic is absolutely terrible btw. I suspect we'll be having words at the end of the game.
BM
However, again, like I said, I am hardly causing the problems. I'm simply trying to resolve them before they occur.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Face palm. Logic 1, Me 0.Battle Mage wrote:you make it more likely that the scum wont NK me, and instead, are more likely to hit our power roles.
I still stand by the fact I'd rather get this sorted out before it becomes a series of WIFOMs (is this a gambit? If it was why didn't the scum kill him? etc.....) that becomes really awkward.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Fair enough. This discussion isn't going to be any more productive than it already has been. I still think your actions are scummy enough to justify a vote however.Battle Mage wrote:its going to be WIFOM anyway. The only thing this will achieve is bring YOU into the discussion, as obviously any WIFOM concerning my death or lack of is now going to tie directly to you. Just stop this discussion now, and lets move on please.
BM
However, onward in the name of progress.
Unvote, Vote Incognito
Opportunistic wagoning, barning strong player logic, etc. See my previous posts on him.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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Congrats for saying one of the things I've been saying for 6 pages, only I believe BM has been legitimately scummy. Only you seem to have this idea that the mafia have no clue what they are doing and don't realize this as well. Seems like it would be obv to me. There was no ruining done.Khelvaster wrote: Killa Seven, you went ahead and ruined it. If we treated him like 100% town, I was hoping that the scum would NK him. As it is, he's a lynch canidate merely because of his claim, and he casts doubt on himself, so he'll probably live to the endgame if we don't lynch him. I think he's town, so I don't care, but I know that a lot of people doubt this.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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It is just how he is, but its always worth pursuing slightly further. Thats what I meant by my post (its Rosso being Rosso and Rosso being scummy, more info will determine which is more accurate).Matt_S wrote: Has anybody played in a game where Rosso Carne was town? I'm getting the feeling this is just how he is.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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Khelvaster: To swap roles for a minute here, I'm going to defend BM. BM merely said he is more likely to slip up and make a dumb scum mistake, not break under pressure. The first and second are very different, which I can attest to as I haven't really done the second since my first couple games but some how manage to do the first way too often.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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"Slip up" vs "crack" and/or "break". Your post fails.Khelvaster wrote:armlx wrote:Khelvaster: To swap roles for a minute here, I'm going to defend BM. BM merely said he is more likely to slip up and make a dumb scum mistake, not break under pressure. The first and second are very different, which I can attest to as I haven't really done the second since my first couple games but some how manage to do the first way too often.
Ok, crack, not break. That's a sematic difference. Your defence fails.Battle Mage wrote: I have a feeling if anyone is going to crack under pressure-it be him.Away Wednesday the 24th through the 31st-
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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armlx Most JDTay-like
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