Mafia 108 - Mafia With The Quickness - over!

[Incognito]

I like the theory discussion.

My personal opinion on logic, gut, or whatever else you want to call it is as follows: I think the real key to becoming a good town player is to use the right combination of BOTH logic and gut and to learn when you should trust one or the other. The fact of the matter is townies can sometimes seem illogical but if you could figure out whether or not the logic being used by what you consider to be an 'illogical townie' is actually genuine, then you might be able to figure out that they're town, and you could then begin focusing your scum-hunting energy elsewhere. Some people can probably get by using ONLY one or the other, but I think most people are probably using some combination of both all the time without even realizing it.

Incog, I would definitely play a game like this again. Be sure to let me know if you ever run it again, I want a pre-in.

I don't really have any plans to run another one anytime soon because my classes are kicking into high gear, but I'm aiming to run another quick one at the start of summer once my semester draws to a close. If you're still around and I still actually do it, I'll send a PM to you and anyone else who might be interested to see if you would still like a pre-/in.

[Netlava]

I woke up a few minutes too late - otherwise, I would have claimed (obviously).

[Ellibereth]

QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/ncFRQeZ3tYD

Also I had to work at convincing Elli that we should kill Glork on night 3.
I actually wanted to kill him around night 2, but Elli said in QT that he didn't want to kill him. To this point, I still have no idea what he wanted to leave Glork alive, maybe he can share his thought process on that one.

I dunno, I thought he was fun to keep around. Lamest reason in the world, I know.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if the exchange between Elli and Neto was genuine or not regarding Elli's play style, but I found him to be far more competent at mafia than he appears.

^^ Though I was incompetent.

He's really good at acting scummily but making it seem random so you don't suspect it's actually scummy. That's why I have such a hard time reading him.

Haha, I'll take that as a compliment. I like being a paradox.
Seriously though, I act the same way in general as town but it's not really that much "on purpose" per se...

Seriously, I think we just got really lucky with how things turned out. And I have gotten way too many scum pms for my 3 months here (see wiki).

[Ellibereth]

EBWOP: Thought* I was incompetent.

[Bogre]

Told ya Zach was scum.

[Glork]

I shouldn't have tipped my hand Re: Elli, and for that I apologize. I should have either made ElliScum a huge fucking deal, or I should have kept my mouth shut so as not to tip THEM off that I was onto Elli.

I had the game figured out, though. I knew that Yos, Mae, SK, and Haylen were town for very basic, obvious reasons. Which left the two scumbags, which fit in with the larger picture in general. I guess that's why they killed me when they did.

Still, Haylen, If you're ever a Vig: Never, ever, ever vig anybody. Seriously. I still want to know what in the hell possessed you to shoot at me. (I realize that I would have died anyway, because the scums shot me, but I still want to know. I was the most blatanly obvious protown player by a MILE.)

[Glork]

I think you actually worked pretty well as an honorary scum buddy Yos

Lol. Yeah, my day 1 play was quite a spectacular success at shooting myself in the foot. I managed to take a pretty much guarenteed scum lynch and at the last second rally the troops, get everyone to follow me, and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, haha.

I'm still pissed that you pushed through that lynch, especially after I pointed out that we had moved from obvscumlynch to obvtownlynch.

My personal opinion on logic, gut, or whatever else you want to call it is as follows: I think the real key to becoming a good town player is to use the right combination of BOTH logic and gut and to learn when you should trust one or the other. The fact of the matter is townies can sometimes seem illogical but if you could figure out whether or not the logic being used by what you consider to be an 'illogical townie' is actually genuine, then you might be able to figure out that they're town, and you could then begin focusing your scum-hunting energy elsewhere. Some people can probably get by using ONLY one or the other, but I think most people are probably using some combination of both all the time without even realizing it.

This is pretty much QFT. A combinatin of gut and logic is exactly what led me to conclude that Neto was scum, Yos was town, Mae was town, Haylen was town, and SK was town. In every case, I was able to read and comprehend what they had posted, and ask myself two questions:
"Does this make sense?"
"Does this feel right?"

It is IMPOSSIBLE to rely entirely on logic or gut and expect to win. Logically, I think Mae was probably the "scummier" lynch in endgame, but if anybody had bothered to go back and look at the end of D1 (and my observations of her on D2), she should have been VERY OBVSIOULY PROTOWN. Her championing the LavaLynch didn't make sense as scum, unless she was pulling a significant gambit. And like I said, I don't think she had the experience or maliciousness to pull off such a gambit. She should never have been considered for lynch, and I'm miffed that people kept putting her up as a potential lynch candidate.


Neto, you're probably going to hate that I'm posting this, but you were the most obvious scumbag I've seen in a long time, and I honestly can't give you a concrete or "solidly logical" reason why. It was really a whole host of little things which added up.

Did you guys think the game was balanced?
Were the deadlines a little

too

quick?
Would you play in a game like this again in the future?

1) I think it's nearly impossible to say. We had a Vigilante who shot at four protown players, and two power roles dead Night One. That's atypical for a mafia game. I would say it could very well have been balanced, but that it was probably a little too swingy.
2) No, I think they were fine. We reached a natural lynch on at least one day, which is a pretty good indicator that deadlines were fine. Making days 24 hours longer might be handy to account for things like V/LA. I know that Yos's weekend away frustrated me, because I really wanted to extract some information from him, and he just wasn't going to be around.
3) Yes. Faster games are a very nice refreshment from the drudgery of current mafia pace. I think we need significantly more "fast" mafia games.

Besides, I think it's pretty well known that Camn is a good player.

...except that I have no idea who the fuck camn is (no offense, camn), and I certainly would have killed someone else (probably Mae or somesuch). I perfectly understand the reasoning behind Haylen's vig, and there were valid reasons to believe that you

could

have been scum -- especially after Neto/Zach was known. She just happened to get it wrong.

[Haylen]

Still, Haylen, If you're ever a Vig: Never, ever, ever vig anybody.

Thank's for the vote of confidence.

I don't remember why I killed you Glork. I think it was on impulse.

[Glork]

I should probably qualify that.

Don't do it ever unless you are

completely, 100% convinced

that your target is scum.

There is NO rule that says that Vigilantes must shoot every night. And free-firing Vigilantes can do more harm than good. I think this is a pretty decent example of this.

[Kmd4390]

Did you guys think the game was balanced?
Were the deadlines a little

too

quick?
Would you play in a game like this again in the future?

Balance, yes.

Deadlines, near perfect.

If I keep playing mafia, which doesn't seem likely, this is exactly the kind of game I'd look for.

---------------

Haylen, you speculated on the Camn kill and didn't think that I was scum? How?

If I was scum, pretty sure I would have killed Glork.

I'd keep him alive like I did with you in that newbie game.

partners were fingered

[Haylen]

Haylen, you speculated on the Camn kill and didn't think that I was scum? How?

Too easy. It had already been said you would be scum if she died.

[Ellibereth]

Did you guys think the game was balanced?
Were the deadlines a little too quick?
Would you play in a game like this again in the future?

1) Me = Knows nothing about balancing. I liked the settup.
2) Perfect, deadlines are way to long nowadays IMO.
3) Definitely.

[Yosarian2]

I think you actually worked pretty well as an honorary scum buddy Yos

Lol. Yeah, my day 1 play was quite a spectacular success at shooting myself in the foot. I managed to take a pretty much guarenteed scum lynch and at the last second rally the troops, get everyone to follow me, and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, haha.

I'm still pissed that you pushed through that lynch, especially after I pointed out that we had moved from obvscumlynch to obvtownlynch.

Well, you could have, like, tried to convince me that I was wrong, instead of just swearing revenge against everyone on the wagon. There were enough people on that there was still time to swing the wagon back the other way after you got online, and I would have listened to rational arguments.

(shrug) I might have done better if I'd had more time. I donno. I was trying to get the best read I could based on a very rushed read-through of the game just before deadline.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to rely entirely on logic or gut and expect to win. Logically, I think Mae was probably the "scummier" lynch in endgame, but if anybody had bothered to go back and look at the end of D1 (and my observations of her on D2), she should have been VERY OBVSIOULY PROTOWN.

I thought so at the time, but there were also things she did that looked scummy, and the end of day 1 thing "I was the first on the wagon!!" thing wouldn't have been that hard for a scum to fake; I've done it.

...except that I have no idea who the fuck camn is (no offense, camn), and I certainly would have killed someone else (probably Mae or somesuch). I perfectly understand the reasoning behind Haylen's vig, and there were valid reasons to believe that you

could

have been scum -- especially after Neto/Zach was known. She just happened to get it wrong.

Eh, I understand people could have been suspicious of me after Zach flipped scum. I would have thought the way the last day went would have pretty convincingly cleared me, though.

A claimed vig, if they're going to fire at all, should generally be the town's second lynch, and not go off wily-nilly and kill some random person that no one was suspicious of during the day. Her Gayle kill actually was very helpful to the town, for that reason; even though he was town, he certanly would have been lynched if she hadn't shot him. Shooting me, you, or Camn, when no one suspected any of us, was not.

[camn]

Hi!

That Neto vs Elli day 1 was very genuine feeling.. and once I learned the scumteam.. i thought it would be unsurmountable. >sigh<

Haylen... killing me because I am a GOOD player is a terrible reason! Boo.

1 question, though.
NETOPOLIS..
in the QT you said:

"Of the two, I would *greatly* prefer Camn."

how come?
I strive to improve my play.. how did I get to be so high on your kill list?

Oh PS
Gut >> Logic.

[Glork]

I thought so at the time, but there were also things she did that looked scummy, and the end of day 1 thing "I was the first on the wagon!!" thing wouldn't have been that hard for a scum to fake; I've done it.

I've done it, too, but that doesn't mean that everybody thinks like you do. It's just like when you said "SK acting like vig is bad play." You and I recognize these things, but a large number of players don't. You have to ask yourself, "Does it make sense for

Mae

as scum to fake championing a mislynch wagon?" No, it didn't. That's why she was protown.

I've never even read a game of Mae's, but based solely on her verbiage and posting style, I could meta that out of her. I expected it to be super easy mode for everybody else to conclude she was protown, but apparently not. That's why I'm frustrated.

[Haylen]

Ooh! Yay! Lets improve our play.

Has Haylen improved since...ever...?

[CSL]

Yeah, you have, Hayl.

[Yosarian2]

I thought so at the time, but there were also things she did that looked scummy, and the end of day 1 thing "I was the first on the wagon!!" thing wouldn't have been that hard for a scum to fake; I've done it.

I've done it, too, but that doesn't mean that everybody thinks like you do. It's just like when you said "SK acting like vig is bad play." You and I recognize these things, but a large number of players don't.

Well, sure, but at the time I was mostly trying to convince you that I personally wasn't the SK, and therefore that I wouldn't have done that as SK. Because I wouldn't have made that play, and you know I wouldn't have made that play, and I know you know I wouldn't have made that play. I couldn't quite just come out and say THAT, though, even though it's true, or I'd be accused of OMGUSing, so I made it a general argument instead. I think you got the gist of it though.

You have to ask yourself, "Does it make sense for

Mae

as scum to fake championing a mislynch wagon?" No, it didn't. That's why she was protown.

(shrug) Yeah, I agreed with that argument, and it gave her some pro-town points in my book. I just don't think it's a 100% reliable town tell, from anyone.

[Netopalis]

Camn: I actually didn't really want to kill you that night - I would have much preferred to kill KMD, as he was more of a threat. However, Zach and Ellibereth seemed convinced that the power roles would be found among the least talkative townspeople, and of the choices that they presented, I felt that you were the best choice, since you were actually somewhat of a threat, unlike Bogre. At the time, you had some light suspicion, but it wasn't as sure of a thing as a Bogre lynch would have been later on.

[camn]

Ah.
I think you would have found me to be a near-impossible lynch later on.. so it is probably good that you killed me.
I do dislike dying so early, though! THis was my ONLY GAME...!

and

Has Haylen improved since...ever...?

I agree, you totally have improved!
But we all have room to improve more. As Yosarian so elegantly displayed


BTW, When I got home and read the end of day 1, I was in SERIOUS wtf-zone. I figured Elli or Neto HAD to be the lynch.. but NO! Yos had to use his considerable muscle to totally derail everything! So sad. Then incog told me the scumlist, and I knew we were doomed.

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm still embarrassed that we got off of

two

scum wagons to lynch a power role. Probably my worst moment since getting a claimed doc lynched.

@ Haylen: Don't get so down on yourself. This game can be tricky to play, and there's always room for improvement.

[Zachrulez]

I'm still embarrassed that we got off of

two

scum wagons to lynch a power role. Probably my worst moment since getting a claimed doc lynched.

I remember that one.

I regret nothing!

[Glork]

I'm still embarrassed that we got off of

two

scum wagons to lynch a power role. Probably my worst moment since getting a claimed doc lynched.

Speak for yourself, you bum. I recall voting Zach and Neto exclusively in the last ~36 hours of the day.

[Incognito]

Yeah, I really thought town was gonna have a cakewalk and that the early bussing/distancing done by the scums would end up shooting them in the foot once the town PRs started catching up to them. Then the wagon shifted...

[camn]

I would have caught them all.

note to haylen:
benefit of camn as town ally >> threat of camn as scum enemy


PS.. did anyone other than incog see my awesome breadcrumb? GOSH!