NY 120: Flash mafia 2. GAME OVER

[Battousai]

Damn, forgot to vote

vote: Vollkan

[vollkan]

The fact remains that Vollkan still tries to dismiss my claims with a chortle and a smirk. You cant sick back, wave your hand like some Jedi mind trick and expect everything to simply go away. The fact is that youre trying to smear me here and making me look bad. You claim thats the way you play, but the exact same thing can be said against me. Except im here actively trying to catch scum. I dont hold back, I dont throttle down. Vollkan just sits back and watches the townies attack each other until he and his scumbuddies come out on top. He uses his points system to hide behind.

Also, it's simply ridiculous to imply that my reasons for suspecting you are directed at your playstyle. Go to my ISO and search for + .

I have nothing to hide and always explain my actions. Vollkan says that he does what the point system he himself generates says he does. He might as well just say that he is following orders.

Which of my actions have I not explained?

Your mantra of "Vollkan was setting me up" is bullcrap. Vollkan wasn't voting you yesterday, I was still higher on his list.

I'd add to this that my reasons for pushing IS above you were entirely a consequence of his attack on me. So it makes no sense for him to accuse me of setting him up.

I don't like is ISO 47/48. In 47, he votes Oman (the currently tied with UT for head wagon) on the basis of the fact that ythill put the two leading wagons to 3-3 and he wanted Oman to respond to a question he quoted from Ythill about 15 minutes earlier. I guess in order to get him to respond. In the same post he gives Oman a boost in points as the second highest at the time was 51, thus making him the “scummiest” of his suspects.

You disagree with my reason for increasing points on Oman?

In 48, he gives MBF +4, thus making him the scummiest. He refused to vote him because he didn't know the current VC, which if he took 3 minutes, he could deduce as the last VC was a page earlier.

What's your point? I really can't see why delaying my vote by a few posts to get an official votecount and not spending my time trying to add votes up is unreasonable.

If he unvoted and switched to MBF, it would be Oman 3, UT 2, MBF 3. MBF would be tied and have a chance at lynch, so would Oman who he gladly put into the head spot. The only person in danger that Vollkan hasn't said was scummy was UT. Again. I think this was a guise to defend UT from a potential lynch.

Again, what's your point? UT wasn't my highest suspect. I also think it's bizarre that you'd make an argument which is premised on UT being scum, and yet you end up voting me

[vollkan]

EBWOP:

Points for Batt contingent on response

[mikeburnfire]

D1 VC:

RichardGHP

(5):

Porochaz,

mikeburnfire,

Oman

, Untrod Tripod, Vollkan
Untrod Tripod (5):

Luchris, RichardGHP, Fishythefish, Espeonage, Ythill

Ythill (2): Ojanen,

Parama

Porochaz

(1): Seol

If you are indeed town, and somehow knew that Fishy was town, based on how you colored him green, then you would know that there was NO SCUM on UT's wagon at the end of the day. What is your opinion of UT, and how the wagon suddenly shifted off of him and onto Richard?

MBF: Scum wouldn't do this... mantra is BS. Scum would if they knew the wagon that would replace it is town. They get bonus town points for unsuccessfully derailing a town PR lynch, and there would still be a mislynch. Win, Win.

Let's ignore the fact that I think you're absolutely wrong about this. Since Vollkan was gunning for me at the time, does this mean that you believe me to be town?

I don't see your reasoning for voting Vollkan. Could you clearly explain it to me? It had better be good enough for adding a second vote.

Right now there are two votes on me and two votes on Vollkan, both of whom I believe to be town. This is unsettling. Scum are Tripod, Stranger, and Battousai. Calling it now.

[mykonian]

votecount

mikeburnfire (2): Parama, Untrod Tripod
Vollkan (2): Internet Stranger, Battousai
Internet Stranger (1): mikeburnfire

not voting (2): Vollkan, Fishythefish

with 7 players, it is 4 to lynch

[Fishythefish]

It's completely clear to me that IS has no case against volkan. His calling the points system itself scummy is nonsense. His "NK conspiracy" attack just doesn't point to volkan more than anyone else, aside from being the bad kind of WIFOM. His attack on volkan's day 2 play is nicely summed up by volkan as a "conspiracy argument" - assigning arbitrary motivations to arbitrary actions in order to portray someone as scum. It's a nice story, but IS has given no reason to believe it other any other.

Further, it's clear to me that IS simply cannot have believed what he's been saying throughout the last two days. For whatever reason, he's wildly exaggerating (or totally fabricating) his reads. They are poorly reasoned, and he does not care to respond to criticism of them except with wild rants. This betrays a massive lack of curiosity as to who is actually scum.

That's what I'm sure of. And given that, I think IS is scum. He could be town. Town who has taken tunnelling and elevated it to an artform, where he picks a random target and will not rest or speak sense until they have been lynched. But I doubt it. I've never seen a townie so tunnelled who can see their tunnellee flip town and move on to the next without batting an eyelid.

Fishy, I had a scumread on Luchris yesterday, obviously. The fact that he came up innocent and Ythill's death cemented my suspicions of Vollkan.

What about the scumread on volkan? Had you looked at his play at all before today?

@Everyone: what is your read on IS?

[Battousai]

Vollkan- It's more to the fact that it seems like you added points to Oman so you can be consistent (between votes/points) and vote him. I don't know why you gave him points, as all you wanted was a response.

Vollkan- It just seems off. You could have easily found the VC. You didn't. That leads me to believe that you didn't want to vote, but still wanted to say MBF is scummy. This also leads me to believe that you didn't want the vote count to change from Oman 4, UT 2, MBF 2 to Oman 3, MBF 3, UT 2. Why? MBF was in the lead with points, followed by Oman (who you had no qualms putting into the lead with votes). The only reason would be that you either a) wanted Oman lynched regardless of your points, or B) you were trying to protect UT and/or MBF (If MBF, making him scummy then not following up with a vote at a later day seems like distancing).

Vollkan- UT wasn't you highest suspect? Really? So, you'd vote someone at 52 points, even though you have someone else on your list that is at 54 points, but you wouldn't want to danger someone who has 50 points (aka null). Is 2 points really that important, and I still don't see why you didn't vote MBF based on your townie point system. And why am I voting you over UT? Well, you are the one making all these connections to UT. I ISO'd you, not UT. Why do you want me to shift my attention to UT over you?

MBF- I slipped up. I accidentally had fishy in my dead pile. Now that fishy isn't confirmed, my opinion is a bit different, but not by much. A switch from an unconfirmed wagon (lead predominately by all town, which is now all town -1 unconfirmed) would suggest that the scum preferred a Richard lynch. Now, I've played with Richard before, and not to be mean, but he tends to be a bit VI and fake claims as town (see last will mafia 2 for what I'm saying) and scum would probably prefer not to lynch him and lynch another townie if they had a choice on D1. Richard could have easily been lynched later, whereas it seems UT hasn't been able to be lynched since then. I would guess that this points to UT being scum.

MBF- Since Volkan "gunned" for you, very weakly, I'd say connection wise, you'd be up there behind UT as a possible partner. My case on Vollkan... have you full read my posts? It falls back onto the fact that he has voted consistantly for the benefit of another player. Town doesn't do that unless they think the person is obvtown. I haven't seen that, since this goes back since D1 and he still hasn't called UT obvtown (in fact he has him up a bit in points, which I see as distancing).

Fishy- I don't find tunnelling all that scummy. I find it actually comes from town moreso, and that scum typically are more dynamic to avoid being locked into actions.

Everyone- Don't dismiss my case on Vollkan because of IS's theory. Look at it independantly. IS could be right in thinking Vollkan is scum, even if you think his reasoning is flawed.

FTR- Scum team of Volkan and UT, with a possible third with MBF.

[Fishythefish]

@mod:

UT and Parama prods please.

@Batt: I am certainly guilty of not paying enough attention to what you said because of your fellow wagonner. I will correct this soon.

[Internet Stranger]

My point remains the same. Vollkan is filthy scum. He has been skimming around on the outskirts, trying to stay low key and under the radar. Even his lurking is calculated. Dont you see that even now under these circumstances he still does the same?
He has been doing this all game. He has been gaming his underhanded points system to suit his and the scum's needs.

He has been secretly and deceptive been manipulative this whole time. Trying to set me up was the clincher for me. Its so clear to see it now too.

My vote isnt changing, I got me a Vollkan scum right here.

[Parama]

JUST LYNCH SOMEONE.

This game is way too slow-paced. It's pretty obvious FMPOV that:
1. MBF is scum
2. UT is town
3. IS is scum, which makes Batt scum by association.
I'm leaving my vote where it is unless a Batt or IS wagon gets to L-1.

Vollkan and Fishy need to vote. I don't care that it's probably lylo - YOU NEED TO VOTE.

[Battousai]

Parama- How am I scum by association? I believe Vollkan is scum. IS believes Vollkan is scum for different reasons. Other than that, I see no association. MBF thinks IS is scum. Does that mean Vollkan is scum by association? Also, if I'm scum by association with IS, how come you would hammer me when you have MBF as stand alone scum? Wouldn't you prefer to lynch IS and then MBF? Also, all I've seen from you is about voting. I haven't seen much in the way of discussion from you. Look at my case, is it feesible? Look at D1 vote count, wouldn't you think 1 scum would be on the Richard wagon, especially if the runner up wagon is scum?

Looking at the vote count:

mikeburnfire (2): Parama, Untrod Tripod
Vollkan (2): Internet Stranger, Battousai
Internet Stranger (1): mikeburnfire

If we ignore the 1 vote (due to it being very difficult for 3 scum to quicklynch). We have two wagons at 2 votes. There have not been a quicklynch, therefore I would speculate that fishy and vollkan are not scum TOGETHER. Since I believe Vollkan to be scum, fishy is town.

Also, I am very, very certain that there is at least 1 scum amoung MBF, UT, and Vollkan due to D1 wagon. If none of them were scum, from an outside POV, that would mean that one scum would be on each of the 3 smaller wagons (and town ran up two townies without much scum help (only 1 scum amoung 2 town wagons). So, what is more likely is that scum voted Richard.

Fishy, I ask you to hammer right now (and by that put someone at L-1). Put either MBF or Vollkan at L-1, thus confirming that they are scum if they aren't hammered. Please read my case and decide.

[vollkan]

Vollkan- It's more to the fact that it seems like you added points to Oman so you can be consistent (between votes/points) and vote him. I don't know why you gave him points, as all you wanted was a response.

Not true at all.

In ISO 46, I asked Oman to respond to a point that Ythill had made against Oman, which Oman had not yet addressed. In ISO 47, 14 minutes later, I put two points on him.

The reason I did this is a simple matter of policy/theory. As you can see from this google search, when I see something that is prima facie scummy but which I want a person to address, I apply points before they answer. The reason for this is that it's clearly bad policy to ignore something I think is scummy and then possibly allow people to avoid it by me omitting to follow up, should they not address it (or, if I am skimming, as is not infrequent, if I forget that the issue was important to me).

Vollkan- It just seems off. You could have easily found the VC. You didn't. That leads me to believe that you didn't want to vote, but still wanted to say MBF is scummy. This also leads me to believe that you didn't want the vote count to change from Oman 4, UT 2, MBF 2 to Oman 3, MBF 3, UT 2. Why? MBF was in the lead with points, followed by Oman (who you had no qualms putting into the lead with votes). The only reason would be that you either a) wanted Oman lynched regardless of your points, or B) you were trying to protect UT and/or MBF (If MBF, making him scummy then not following up with a vote at a later day seems like distancing).

You haven't challenged the validity of the reason I gave, other than asserting that you don't believe it. Again, I couldn't see the harm in delaying.

There's not much more I can, since your argument is premised on me not having the motivation that I had.

[quote="Batt"}
Vollkan- UT wasn't you highest suspect? Really? So, you'd vote someone at 52 points, even though you have someone else on your list that is at 54 points, but you wouldn't want to danger someone who has 50 points (aka null). Is 2 points really that important, and I still don't see why you didn't vote MBF based on your townie point system. [/quote]

I've explained why I didn't vote MBF that day already.

As for the 2 points: A points system isn't much use if I decide the points don't matter. As I've explained in my argument with IS, it's meant to function as a precommitment tool. If it becomes subject to my own discretion, it becomes non-existent.

And why am I voting you over UT? Well, you are the one making all these connections to UT. I ISO'd you, not UT. Why do you want me to shift my attention to UT over you?

That's not what I asked you to do.

I asked why you were suspecting me based on an argument which assumed UT was scum.

[Fishythefish]

Let's hypothesise volkanscum. Then let's put ourselves in his hyposhoes at the time of post 768. Your points system reads thus:

Player	Points
mikeburnfire	66
Espeonage	52
Ythill Jdodge	54
Parama	50
Luchris	58
Untrod Tripod	50
Internet Stranger Seol Budja	60
Fishythefish	50

The votecount reads thus:

votecount

mikeburnfire (2): Parama, Untrod Tripod
Vollkan (1): Internet Stranger

not voting (4): Battousai, Vollkan, mikeburnfire, Fishythefish

with 7 players, it is 4 to lynch

So, what do you do if mbf is town and Parama OR UT is? You vote mbf, backed up by the Points System, and let your scumbuddy hammer. Or you sit tight for a bit, and then vote mbf. The last thing you do in the whole world is to counterattack IS to the extent that he leapfrogs mbf in your suspicions.

This points

extremely

strongly to volkanscum -> mbfscum OR {Parama AND UT scum}. I'd bet the game on that - if not then volkanscum passed up an excellent chance to win the game, in return for extremely marginal benefits.

Nothing similar applies on the other wagon - there's no player with a good excuse to vote volkan here.

I judge a volkan/Parama/UT team unlikely enough that there's no way I'd vote for volkan over mbf today (partly due to any one team being unlikely compared with the large numbers of teams I'd still believe, partly because I don't really think Parama's scum, partly because I think IS is scum).

I had a post typed out about Batt's case, which I don't think is massively compelling, but it seems to have been lost in a quote/copy/past/tabs frenzy. In summary, volkan's lack of vote move isn't suspicious, because delaying the vote wouldn't advantage him as scum. The points he gave Oman were relatively weak, and this makes volkan/UT more believable.

[mikeburnfire]

blah blah blah

beating_dead_horse.gif

This game is way too slow-paced. It's pretty obvious FMPOV that:
1. MBF is scum
2. UT is town
3. IS is scum, which makes Batt scum by association.
I'm leaving my vote where it is unless a Batt or IS wagon gets to L-1.

Vollkan and Fishy need to vote. I don't care that it's probably lylo - YOU NEED TO VOTE.

1. I am not scum.
2. Do you any reason why UT is not scum? I can NOT find one, and unless you can give me a good one, kindly STFU about UT being obv town.
3. I actually agree with you on this last one, kind of. Why does IS-scum guarantee Batt-scum?
4. It's only been Day 4 for six real-life days. Stop rushing.

There have not been a quicklynch, therefore I would speculate that fishy and vollkan are not scum TOGETHER. Since I believe Vollkan to be scum, fishy is town.

...or maybe they are both town. Derp.

Fishy, I ask you to hammer right now (and by that put someone at L-1). Put either MBF or Vollkan at L-1, thus confirming that they are scum if they aren't hammered. Please read my case and decide.

"Hey, Fishy. Put MBF at L-1. If he isn't lynched, we'll lynch him!"
Wow, that's a lot of stupid in a single post. Kudos.

This points extremely strongly to volkanscum -> mbfscum OR {Parama AND UT scum}

Wow, there's a whole epidemic of stupid going around today, isn't there? Since Vollkan didn't end up voting me in the scenario that you just set up, it is proof that either vollkan is town, or we are BOTH scum.
----------------------

[Fishythefish]

This points extremely strongly to volkanscum -> mbfscum OR {Parama AND UT scum}

Wow, there's a whole epidemic of stupid going around today, isn't there? Since Vollkan didn't end up voting me in the scenario that you just set up, it is proof that either vollkan is town, or we are BOTH scum.
----------------------

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying there. What that means is "IF volkan is scum, EITHER mbf is scum OR (Parama and UT are BOTH scum)". So it's proof that either volkan is town, or you are both scum or the scumteam is precisely volkan/Parama/UT.

That doesn't say you are scum, and it most certainly doesn't say volkan is scum. It does say that if volkan is scum, you almost certainly are, making you at least as good a lynch as him.

[mikeburnfire]

It does say that if volkan is scum, you almost certainly are, making you at least as good a lynch as him.

Actually, by that logic, I am a far better lynch than Vollkan. But please don't.

-------------------------------------------

The people who say they are willing to lynch IS includes: MBF, Vollkan, Parama, and Fishy. The people who express no desire to lynch IS are IS (duh), battousai, and UT.

Scum are Tripod, Stranger, and Battousai. Calling it now.

The only reason this game is still going is because Batt joined the game recently and saw his scumpartner going after Vollkan with all his might and decided to follow him, too foolish to realize that if he would just vote MBF, IS could jump ship and win the game for scum.

/game

[Internet Stranger]

The point that is being expressed is that there is a reason why the game is deadlocked despite so many votes sitting out there.

And the reason is that Vollkan is scum. If he wasn't scum, this game would have been over already. The game is still there for the town to win, we are going to ferret out the rest of the scum by tomorrow with Vollkan's lynch. We will see who is trying to hide with him. Vollkan tried to stay aloof and hide all game, but finally got caught. The rest of you scumbags are next!

You won't escape me scum, first I lynch me a vollkan scum, then I'm conming for you!

[Fishythefish]

It does say that if volkan is scum, you almost certainly are, making you at least as good a lynch as him.

Actually, by that logic, I am a far better lynch than Vollkan. But please don't.

-------------------------------------------

The people who say they are willing to lynch IS includes: MBF, Vollkan, Parama, and Fishy. The people who express no desire to lynch IS are IS (duh), battousai, and UT.

Scum are Tripod, Stranger, and Battousai. Calling it now.

The only reason this game is still going is because Batt joined the game recently and saw his scumpartner going after Vollkan with all his might and decided to follow him, too foolish to realize that if he would just vote MBF, IS could jump ship and win the game for scum.

/game

Sorry, that was rather unclear of me. What I mean is that in (almost) any scenario we could be in, you are at least as good a lynch as volkan. Which means that overall you are a much better lynch than volkan.

@IS: the last few posts on volkan/mbf are highly relevant to anyone who is voting for volkan. What do you make of the logic that volkan would almost certainly have gone after mbf if he was scum and mbf was town?

[mikeburnfire]

@Stranger

I'm willing to bet the game on Vollkan not being scum.

What do you think of Battousai subtly attempting to lynch me and/or Vollkan regardless of alignment?

[Battousai]

The point that is being expressed is that there is a reason why the game is deadlocked despite so many votes sitting out there.

And the reason is that Vollkan is scum. If he wasn't scum, this game would have been over already. The game is still there for the town to win, we are going to ferret out the rest of the scum by tomorrow with Vollkan's lynch. We will see who is trying to hide with him. Vollkan tried to stay aloof and hide all game, but finally got caught. The rest of you scumbags are next!

You won't escape me scum, first I lynch me a vollkan scum, then I'm coming for you!

What he said, minus the Farnsworth chuckle. I could have easily won the game for scum, if I was scum, just like MBF said. I could have easily switched to a MBF wagon, then IS scum would hammer. What I don't get is, why is MBF calling us foolish scum instead of town? His whole reasoning for me being scum, it would seem, is that I don't want to vote IS. Hell, if we were both scum, I could have easily helped lynch IS scum and ride out the game for another day. Why? Scum have to get 1 mislynch. Just 1. A scum lynch would be a set back, but not a game changer.

MBF adamant idea that IS is scum, and thus, everyone who has expressed not to want him lynched is scum, plus the fact scum haven't quickhammered either of the two wagons makes me think MBF is most likely scum.


Everyone-

Also, I am very, very certain that there is at least 1 scum amoung MBF, UT, and Vollkan due to D1 wagon. If none of them were scum, from an outside POV, that would mean that one scum would be on each of the 3 smaller wagons (and town ran up two townies without much scum help (only 1 scum amoung 2 town wagons). So, what is more likely is that scum voted Richard.

What does everyone think? What would be more likely- all 3 scum were on 3 different wagons that didn't go into fruition and none on the lynching wagon, or at least one scum is on the lynching wagon? If the second is the case, would it be plausible the reason for the UT to Richard switch is that scum didn't want UT lynched?

Preview edit: What the fuck are you talking about MBF? How am I advocating a lynch on Vollkan, regardless of alignment? I've said that Vollkan is scum. Do you not comprehend that scum is an alignment? Are you that dense? Or are you trying to discredit my case against Vollkan, and any leads that brings to you? Ya, that's what I thought.

[mikeburnfire]

How am I advocating a lynch on Vollkan, regardless of alignment?

You're a fool if you truly don't see it.

Put either MBF or Vollkan at L-1, thus confirming that they are scum if they aren't hammered.

[Parama]

The point that is being expressed is that there is a reason why the game is deadlocked despite so many votes sitting out there.

And the reason is that Vollkan is scum. If he wasn't scum, this game would have been over already. The game is still there for the town to win, we are going to ferret out the rest of the scum by tomorrow with Vollkan's lynch. We will see who is trying to hide with him. Vollkan tried to stay aloof and hide all game, but finally got caught. The rest of you scumbags are next!

You won't escape me scum, first I lynch me a vollkan scum, then I'm conming for you!

rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric all the heck you do is post a bunch of empty rhetoric

[Battousai]

How am I advocating a lynch on Vollkan, regardless of alignment?

You're a fool if you truly don't see it.

Put either MBF or Vollkan at L-1, thus confirming that they are scum if they aren't hammered.

Oh, I thought you were talking about my case. This was basically alluring to the fact that scum have not quickhammered yet, thus making you someone they don't want to hammer.

Parama- Replace out if you don't intend to play. Not answering questions posed at everyone and at YOU is anti-town at best.

[mikeburnfire]

Naw, I like Parama. He's at least trying. Stranger is just repeating his forced, projected, hollow case on Vollkan. UT isn't even here. They are worse offenders.

Although, seriously Parama, I would like to see your reasoning why UT is town soon, because I don't believe you.

[Parama]

Parama- Replace out if you don't intend to play. Not answering questions posed at everyone and at YOU is anti-town at best.

Screw you. I've been playing this whole time.

Also what questions?