Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[DemonHybrid]

I agree.

It makes the game un-enjoyable if you have someone screaming in your face for 5 posts in a row.

[Fate]

As you said, it got you to shut down as scum in Gorrad's and roll over.

Here it got you to fight for your life.

Aka it revealed your alignment to me (and I had I be town, I would've read you as such)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fate continues to harbor delusions that he was the driving force in Gorrads ... cute

[Yaw]

Oh, don't get me wrong, Reck played a very good game here. I think defending Dramonic all the way like that was a bit on the reckless side, but it's hard to complain when it worked. On the whole, his play reminded me quite a bit of Antrax, which is some pretty high praise.

The issue is two-fold. First, Antrax never needed capslock to express anger, while being very effective at getting it across. Word choice is sufficient. So if capslock is unnecessary to express the ideas and emotions you want, and makes it harder for others to read, why use it?

Second, it's one of those tactics that works (and I'm not trying to claim it's illegitimate to use here -- success in winning speaks for itself), but has the side-effect of getting other players to participate less. I happen to think that games are more fun when everyone feels they can participate, which includes having a reasonable number of posts to read through each day, none of which are too difficult to get through. In addition, when everyone is participating and up-to-date, that favours the town. So over the past while we've been seeing players use tactics (whether intentionally or not) that favour scum play, including spamming, wallposting, and capslockraging, in that these make other players not want to read the thread, and make relevant information harder to get out of the thread in a timely manner when they do. These are legitimate tactics, but it then becomes incumbent on the town to start pushing back in-game, to make clear that they want a more pro-town meta, and they're willing to lynch to get it. That said, I'm not sure how many players are willing to use their votes in this way.

[Fate]

Fate continues to harbor delusions that he was the driving force in Gorrads ... cute

I don't remember you being killed by scum, am I remembering things right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fate continues to harbor delusions that he was the driving force in Gorrads ... cute

I don't remember you being killed by scum, am I remembering things right?

You remember wrong ... I got killed by both scum factions in one Night ....

Anything you can do I can do better ....

[xRECKONERx]

Oh, don't get me wrong, Reck played a very good game here. I think defending Dramonic all the way like that was a bit on the reckless side, but it's hard to complain when it worked. On the whole, his play reminded me quite a bit of Antrax, which is some pretty high praise.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

The issue is two-fold. First, Antrax never needed capslock to express anger, while being very effective at getting it across. Word choice is sufficient. So if capslock is unnecessary to express the ideas and emotions you want, and makes it harder for others to read, why use it?

This is my style. It always has been, pretty much in every game I've played in the past year. I like for the games to be fun, punchy, and fast-paced, and caps locking gives it that style sometimes. I agree, it becomes a bit too much when it's wall post after wall posts of caps lock, but for quick bursts of WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK ARE YOU DOING, GODDAMMIT I think it's fine to use. I have no problem reading caps lock, as my eyes and brain don't suddenly shut off when someone holds the shift key, so I'm not sure why it becomes "harder" for other people to read.

Second, it's one of those tactics that works (and I'm not trying to claim it's illegitimate to use here -- success in winning speaks for itself), but has the side-effect of getting other players to participate less.

I disagree. I've played in plenty of games where people participated. Perhaps it gets CERTAIN players to participate less, but on the whole, I haven't seen this much aversion to the capslock stuff in a long time.

I happen to think that games are more fun when everyone feels they can participate, which includes having a reasonable number of posts to read through each day, none of which are too difficult to get through.

In the same respect, I fucking hate wall posts, but if I'm in a game where there IS wall posting, I suck it up and wade through it, because I would expect the same in response to my posts. Also, the whole "reasonable number of posts" thing is a double-sided issue: time-length of games versus number of posts for games. Personally, I'd prefer quickfire, heavy hitting bursts of posting rather than people doing long and laborious wallposts once ever 48-72 hours and dragging the day on for three weeks to a month.

In addition, when everyone is participating and up-to-date, that favours the town. So over the past while we've been seeing players use tactics (whether intentionally or not) that favour scum play, including spamming, wallposting, and capslockraging, in that these make other players not want to read the thread, and make relevant information harder to get out of the thread in a timely manner when they do.

Then, I'm sorry, but they need to replace out or be lynched. And I'm not sure where the middle ground is, here: spamming + capslockraging is one side of the coin, and wallposting + lurking is the other.

These are legitimate tactics, but it then becomes incumbent on the town to start pushing back in-game, to make clear that they want a more pro-town meta, and they're willing to lynch to get it. That said, I'm not sure how many players are willing to use their votes in this way.

I guess this it where it comes down to tomayto-tomahto. I don't mind capslock posting, and am more likely to focus on the ones who are posting frequently and in such a manner... however, if a player is only posting once every couple of days and is basically doing "catchup" posts every few days, not only do I lose interest in the game, but I'm more likely to ignore that player when trying to find scum. Capslock raging can lose a game for scum, just as easily as it can win it.

[Fate]

Fate continues to harbor delusions that he was the driving force in Gorrads ... cute

I don't remember you being killed by scum, am I remembering things right?

You remember wrong ... I got killed by both scum factions in one Night ....

Anything you can do I can do better ....

I was killed first and caught the entire Grey scumteam.

So.... yep.

[Fate]

You were probably killed just ofr having a provable role.

I drew it as a VT

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was killed first and caught the entire Grey scumteam.

So.... yep.

Lulz. You mean the Grey Scumteam that you needed me to actually put Stels down for his obv-fake claim, right? The Stels you jumped back on after I wouldn't let go? Yeah.

Also wasn't I the one who actually pegged people from the other team like KDM, instead of calling him obv-Town all game? That's right I was.

But you can continue to think whatever goes on up in Fate-land inside your noggin. Just keep in mind it doesn't actually represent reality.

[Umbrage]

I stopped by to see how the game ended... looks like GreyICE fucked things up pretty well. I'm not surprised. On the other hand, I had Reck pegged from the get-go. Huh. How perfect.

[dramonic]

You never left the AIM debate Umbrage <_<

[EmpTyger]

And I'm not sure where the middle ground is, here: spamming + capslockraging is one side of the coin, and wallposting + lurking is the other.

This gets to the crux of the matter. But the important bit with any behavior is context. *Why* someone does something has to be considered alongside *what* they do. I think it’s a mistake to consider all forms of raging equivalent. In some scenarios, it could be what’s most appropriate. In others, it will be lynchworthy.

And to clarify: I do think “enjoyable”, “fun”, “antisocial”, etc. are far too subjective to be a criteria on what playstyles are acceptable. Regardless, though: when the mod says where the line is, that must be respected by the players. (Of course, it’s the mod’s responsibility to not muddy that line. If SensFan was saying one line by PM to Reckoner and acting on another in thread… well, no wonder there was a mess. No better if he was consistently saying the same thing privately and publically, but yet allowing Reckoner to do whatever he wanted regardless.)


Kise:
Huh. Well, if Reckoner really didn’t talk to you… Was it dramonic or Nero? Or did you exaggerate as some kind of weird gambit? Or just make it up?


LlamaF:
I guess, from my point of view, I felt there wasn’t so much a lack of evidence against Reckoner, as much as a lack of willingness to analyze that evidence. There would have been the same problem against Nero- or, as actually happened, with dramonic.

Although I think part of our disagreement is that you and I may have fundamentally different approaches to play. Some kind of deductive/inductive schism, I think. It’s probably getting a bit tangential to discuss here, though. PM, if you want to continue?


silavor:
It’s how you would have done it, versus what you would have done. Especially having seen what you did in N1061.


Llamarble:
No, it was something from earlier- I had already eliminated you/dramonic D6. Ah well.


DH:

Vote counts coming from two different mods crushed my will to do VCA rather quickly.

That’s only the half of it. SensFan’s votecounts weren’t exactly frequent or accurate.


SensFan:
Sorry if I’m coming across hard on you. Chalk it up to some vestigial enmity towards inattentive or flaky NY mods.

[Umbrage]

You never left the AIM debate Umbrage <_<

Didn't have to.

[vezokpiraka]

Who won?

[xRECKONERx]

(Of course, it’s the mod’s responsibility to not muddy that line. If SensFan was saying one line by PM to Reckoner and acting on another in thread… well, no wonder there was a mess. No better if he was consistently saying the same thing privately and publically, but yet allowing Reckoner to do whatever he wanted regardless.)

Stuff like this:
6:21:14 PM senspizzaline: I don't mind the aggressive/yelling, or even the calling people idiots. I do all of that.
6:22:50 PM Will Hare: I'll agree to tone down the insults a bit too.
6:22:55 PM Will Hare: But the profanity is going to remain >.>
6:23:02 PM senspizzaline: That's more than fine

[Tragedy]

Who won?

Werewolves scum.

[Fate]

Fate Reckn Dram n Mastin

[vezokpiraka]

LOL.

I am glad you guys won. Town was way to stupid in this game.

[DemonHybrid]

LOL.

I am glad you guys won. Town was way to stupid in this game.

Go away.

[Kise]

No complaints. Well deserved victory. I was fixated on my own townread of dram to change my mind about his pair. The only times I had a feeling were werewolf55's nag about it taking months when, for the town, it would only take 2 lynches to defeat scum, and Reck making it a point at the beginning of the game to show he was "clueless" about no night phases. But by day 3, I was gunning for others. I told LF it may be reck & grey, but never had dramscum on the mind. HE did however. :-{........ sup PO, Espy?

Actually, I didn't "pretend" to be clueless about the night phases. I just hadn't read my role PM thoroughly enough yet. And that whole AIM convo thing? I never lied - that seriously never happened.

I know. >.>

[Baby Spice]

Congrats guys.

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/ir8E69NAgze

[EmpTyger]

Mariyta:
(Forgot to include you in my postgame rundown, and not even sure you're still reading, but)
This is the third Large game we've played, and in each of them, you seem to have a problem being motivated to play through to the end. Might I suggest you reconsider whether this size game is appropriate for you?


Reckoner:
Afterthought: this is an interesting counterpoint to Robot Chicken Mafia. Though I admittedly had a much easier setup to help me there.


SensFan:
I think most of this you've probably learned already, but rather than leaving with just passive-aggressive digs, let me be direct and constructive.

A mod's responsibility is to the players. Not to their own ego.

* There is no shame in using a backupmod. There's a reason why backupmods are required. A successfully modded game isn't one that you didn't need help with;

a successfully modded game is one that ran smoothly for the players

.

* A ruleset is an incredible tool to help the moderator to control the game. It allows a mod to straightforwardly sets out what players should expect. Don't squander this resource either. Don't have rules for the sake of having rules. (ie, the deadline rule) Don't make players have to guess at the expectation. (ie, civility). The mod should be clearing up any misunderstandings directly and completely. Players shouldn't have to make guesses based on secondhand reports, or make inferences based on edits. You're the mod. You clear up ambiguities.

* Replacements are a tricky business, and mostly beyond the scope of this. But again, remember: however you are handling inactivity, the principle should be so that the players have a successful game. Consider your replacement policy within the context of the entire game, not in the abstract.

[vezokpiraka]

Mariyta:
(Forgot to include you in my postgame rundown, and not even sure you're still reading, but)
This is the third Large game we've played, and in each of them, you seem to have a problem being motivated to play through to the end. Might I suggest you reconsider whether this size game is appropriate for you?


Reckoner:
Afterthought: this is an interesting counterpoint to Robot Chicken Mafia. Though I admittedly had a much easier setup to help me there.


SensFan:
I think most of this you've probably learned already, but rather than leaving with just passive-aggressive digs, let me be direct and constructive.

A mod's responsibility is to the players. Not to their own ego.

* There is no shame in using a backupmod. There's a reason why backupmods are required. A successfully modded game isn't one that you didn't need help with;

a successfully modded game is one that ran smoothly for the players

.

* A ruleset is an incredible tool to help the moderator to control the game. It allows a mod to straightforwardly sets out what players should expect. Don't squander this resource either. Don't have rules for the sake of having rules. (ie, the deadline rule) Don't make players have to guess at the expectation. (ie, civility). The mod should be clearing up any misunderstandings directly and completely. Players shouldn't have to make guesses based on secondhand reports, or make inferences based on edits. You're the mod. You clear up ambiguities.

* Replacements are a tricky business, and mostly beyond the scope of this. But again, remember: however you are handling inactivity, the principle should be so that the players have a successful game. Consider your replacement policy within the context of the entire game, not in the abstract.

You said nothing about me:(

[Espeonage]

Well played Reck.