NY 150: Mob Money Mafia GAME OVER


User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #850 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:38 am

Post by mastin2 »

Dammit, this is why I hate lylo. This is Sexy Sedilla all over again. :P (Woulda been far better had Oversoul lived rather than TS, too.)

Mod: When is deadline?


I'm going to need that extra time.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #851 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:00 am

Post by mastin2 »

(Speaking of Oversoul, happy scumday, bud.)

Ah, heck. Let's do it from the beginning. (Of the relaunch, anyway.) It's only 35 pages, and considering this is the only game I'm in which is in lylo (I really wanted that win. :( ), I've got the time to do it. Let's roll.
TS wrote:VOTE: Sly

let's roll. I've still got my eye on you Mastin.
Immediately sets his eye on Sly, along with me as well.

Sly wrote:8. Because of #3, I believe the odds are raised that either Pine or Bunny is scum. However, if I recall correctly, Pine had given me town vibes and my vote was on Bunny pretty much out of PoE.
Immediately guns for BL. Despite this, does not gun for either neighbor.

TS wrote:I bold stuff all the time, amigo.
Am I the third mafiosi?


No-one can really comment on BB yet. He's right to be confused. He read zilch of the game beforehand. I think a townie would be just as paranoid at having zero information
This, however, is borderline scumslip from TS. Three scum is almost certainly the number which was in the QT. And he opens with a defense of BBMolla. But on the other hand...
Let it be, BB. If he truly believes you to be scum you'll hardly be able to convince him now will you?
...This is a little too blatant to be typical scum interactions. Rather, it reads as someone who is talking to someone they believe to be town.

mcqueen wrote:•SlySly - Leaning Scum - Null - I can't remember SlySly hardly at all, but I thought he did something that came off as scummy to me, but nothing that ever made me say, "Oh look! That dude [SlySly] is definitely, 100%, scum!"
•BBmolla - Null - Obviously, he just replaced in, so there's not much I can say about him, at the moment.
•Pine - Null - He did some townie things, some scummy things, and some null things, along with the unknown pairing of the neighbor group (town-town or town-scum), leaves me with a null on him.
•Elmo TeH AzN - Null - Don't remember him too good, producing the null.
•Bunnylover - Null - Leaning Town - I saw him as town, but the possibility of a town-scum neighbor group is still in the air, producing the null.
Again, note that mcqueen died as soon as the scum could freely kill someone. He gunned for Sly, and of the neighbors, he was going town on BL.

Kise wrote:I voted Bunny for her quick town call on Pine in the QT (pre-game).
Again, Kise also gunned for BL.

PM wrote:I can recall thinking that Mcqueen, TwistedSpoon Pine and Mastin were town, and after reading I'm going to put chkflip on that list as well. (This is his town play.)
Again, PM was NK'd, and if memory serves, that Pine read held the entire game. He thought Pine was being stupid, dense, and an idiot (callsigns of his scumplay, mind you), but town for the whole game.

Kise-BBMolla interactions on Page 3 kinda make me feel like they did have a QT together.

PM wrote:Twisted was town for his laid back attitude and I don't know, just the way he spoke and scumhunted rang off as extremely town.

Mcqueen was town for reasons I forget but I remember him being really, really freaking obvious town.

Mastin was a town lean because the whole "i'm gonna catch the whole scum team d1 with my crazy analysis" is what he does as town, although I've never actually seen his scum play.

Chkflip is town. Too lazy to explain that.

Nacho was kind of town but he also had a few sketchy posts, memory says he was a leaning tow as well though.

Oh, and I think I had a scum read on Kise as well but I don't remember why. That's all for now.


TS wrote:My thoughts from before are still the same. Andy, Nacho, pine, Queen, PM, and Oversoul still site on my very town pile.
Others like BL and mastin aren't as town for one reason or another, but certainly shouldn't be lynched today.

Everyone else was overall null with slight suspicions on DG and sly. Perhaps Kise too my head tells me, though I can't honesty recall why.
Here's an important one. TS had his eye on me and BL, but Pine was town, and more importantly, Kise wasn't.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
T-Bone
T-Bone
He/Him
A Cut Above
User avatar
User avatar
T-Bone
He/Him
A Cut Above
A Cut Above
Posts: 9041
Joined: February 18, 2011
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Shrug City
Contact:

Post Post #852 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:20 am

Post by T-Bone »

Deadline is in 5 days Mastin.
My Top 40 Alt Songs of the Year!

"Playing in a Newbie game doesn't count" ~ PenguinPower, Feb 2019
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #853 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:31 am

Post by mastin2 »

(Oh, hey. It's Nacho's scumday as well. Heh. Happy scumday to you as well, buddy. Who woulda thought that the two people I seem to have the easiest time hydra'ing with have the exact same scumday? :P)

TS, to Sly wrote:Dude, you just don't vote a climaed cop


This is also important from TS.

In fact, it's VERY important.

TS tells chkflip to abandon Lowell (town), and pursue his own scumreads (BBMolla), even if TS disagrees with them. If that's a bus, it's done in the most roundabout clever way possible, and quite frankly, could be the deciding factor alone by itself.

Yes, it was used to throw suspicion onto chkflip, but still, it's not at all anything resembling a chainsaw defense of BBMolla.

T-Bone wrote:SlySly - 1 (Twistedspoon)
Damon Gant - 3 (Kise, SlySly, Mcqueen)
Pizzadudes7 - 2 (Nacho, BBmolla)
Lowell - 5 (Projectmatt, Damon, mastin, kondi, Chkflip)
And this itself is pretty telling. TS's opinion to pursue your own scumreads even if they're in the minority is backed up by his vote: SlySly, despite Lowell being the easier wagon.

Not only that, but at a time where the game was stalling and few people were active, TS was talking, actively contributing. Pine (who is fairly active on-site when he needs to be) was pretty much absent, only contributing to the apathy rather than (as TS was trying to do) stop it dead in its tracks.

And again, his pursuing of chkflip doesn't read as him setting up a mislynch--it reads as someone having seen something which looks incredibly suspicious, and following through on it, continuing his inquiries and generating content. Furthermore, it again is backed up by his pattern: attacking people who aren't popular targets. Quite the opposite, chkflip was almost universally seen as town, and TS continued his barrage against chkflip despite that.

PM pursued BBMolla here, and also pursued TS.

Kise wrote:I'd vote Sly next since Andy isn't bringing up the obvious thing here - Sly pushing a vote on the claimed cop. But, like others have said, not sure if scum would keep pushing to eliminate a cop like this. I've had a lot of experience with scum gambits but I can't figure out an angle Slyscum would be using here, so I don't think he's a baddie.
Of note, Kise is avoiding the Sly wagon.

Kondi wrote:That nasty GF tell.
Side-note, I asked the mod way back when what the difference between a Town Traitor (SlySly) and Mafia Traitor (Kise) was; he said it was investigations, and I got the impression that SlySly was the investigation-immune one.

Of note, BL also addressed Sly in a way which doesn't look like it'd be that of a buddy. (Obviously.)

Lowell - 9 (Projectmatt, Damon, mastin, Chkflip, Kondi, Mcqueen, Oversoul, Nacho, Twistedspoon)
Note, however, that in order for TS to be town, this had to be a completely town wagon. (Yup. REALLY Sexy Sedilla aaaaaall over again. :P)

BBMolla wrote:VOTE: Pine
Out of the blue, BBMolla votes for Pine. No previous hint of suspicion, no reason as to why, nothing suggesting BBMolla would have ever had a scumread on Pine, until this point right there. That REEKS of a coordinated bus overnight, exactly as one would expect with planning from a QT overnight.

Pine wrote:So hey. T-Bone did not inform me this had been resumed. Nor did he prod me. At all. My first indication that this was still on was the Neighborhood QT going active.

Vote: Bunnylover
Pine's going to hate me for this, because he disagreed with DRey's point using this before strongly, but guess what this is nearly identical to?

Pine said almost the EXACT same thing in DC Universe Mafia, and was scum there. This REEKS of BS in hindsight, especially given light of it having happened with Pine as scum having done something nearly identical.

TS wrote:I'm happy with a BB lynch though. I never was a fan of Chimera and he's done little yesterday to convince me otherwise.
His lurking at the end of yesterday and convenient pop-up today is duly noted

VOTE: BB
And TS's opening to the day is much better, voting for BBMolla immediately.

BBMolla wrote:Yay reactions.

UNVOTE:
Note that as soon as he could, he got off of Pine as well.

BBMolla wrote:Pine literally had zero posts yesterday. I had not seen Pine post in this game. At all. Mind explaining to me why he was "almost certainly town"? There's no possible way you should expect me to get a townread on someone off of zero posts.
Yet the inverse is also true--there's nothing to suggest that Pine would be scum off of zero posts, especially if his story of not being informed was true--making the vote stick out even more.

And to top it all off...

TS sheeping Nacho is awful as well.
...Casting suspicion TS's way. It COULD be a bus, but my gut says it's not the way he'd be distancing from TS as his buddy.

Pine wrote:I am a Town Neighbor. I'm neighbored with Bunnylover. Given site meta, I am quite certain that Bunny is scum. This is supported by the fact that Bunny treated me in our QT as if I were already confirmed Town even before the game started. That is not a Town reaction, Town Neighbors should be suspicious as fuck of their neighbors, especially in a two person 'hood.

Other than Bunny, my biggest suspect was Damon, but that's clearly a dead line of inquiry. I recall having strong Town reads on all participants in the Palisade hydra, except possibly Nacho. Haven't caught up yet, I'll get around to it soon. Bunny needs to die.
Again, keep this in mind.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #854 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:33 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 852, T-Bone wrote:Deadline is in 5 days Mastin.
So deadline's theoretically on Sunday, but that means that real deadline's on Friday, given my lack of access on weekends. And given how I don't want to risk not being available on Friday (it could happen), that really means my deadline should be Thursday, heck, maybe even Wednesday.

Crud. Not as much time as I was hoping for. :/
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #855 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:07 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 252, Pine wrote:Very unlikely, particularly as Bunny has NOT acted in the manner I would expect from an experienced player getting a Town Neighbor PM.

In post 253, Oversoul wrote:
In post 245, BBmolla wrote:Pine literally had zero posts yesterday. I had not seen Pine post in this game. At all. Mind explaining to me why he was "almost certainly town"? There's no possible way you should expect me to get a townread on someone off of zero posts.


This looks like bullshit.

You do realize we had like 20 something pages to go off with the other thread right? You are speaking as if the other thread never existed and it was impossible for Nacho to get a read on Pine from it.

Ya.

No.

VOTE: BBmolla

I am trusting Pine, but I believe he is telling the truth about Bunny who is also another good lynch.
Pine quote, important to note how he now treats the neighborhood. Oversoul Quote, shows BBMolla suspicion.

TS wrote:This really doesn't feel like town BB to me

"but pine did this too...." just isn't the town arguments that are characteristic of the BB i've played with.
Admittedly he's had about half as much info to analyse as the rest of us, but that's no reason to keep him alve for that sake.
And his Nacho vote is a horrible omgus.... on Nacho of all people...
The only thing working against TS in here is the fact that he didn't actually vote for BBMolla; the rest is all in his favor. It looks like someone who has begun to second-guess their initial townread, rather than a scumbuddy reluctant to bus.

Also, note the nearly identical ways BBMolla treats Oversoul and Twistedspoon; the two posts are nearly identical, as you would expect from scum addressing two separate townies.

T-Bone wrote:BBmolla - 6 (Nacho, Twistedspoon, Oversoul, Chkflip, Mcqueen, Mastin)
Note also that BBMolla got to L-2 on day two, but managed to escape unharmed for literally days upon days. But it gets better.

BBMolla wrote:Scum tell your buddies to hop on so I can claim.
Another gem in hindsight. This is exactly what he'd ask of his scumbuddies to do. Kise isn't on the wagon, and if TS is town, that'd mean another buddy is off the wagon. He wanted to be lynched, with his scumbuddy on the wagon. Heck, knowing BBMolla from GvE, CvL, he very well might have self-hammered had he gotten to L-1 to end the day early and rob us of our momentum, spiraling us further into apathy while giving us a false sense of security.

Kise wrote:You don't understand the suspicion on you? You don't have to agree with it but you're coming off as if you're townier than thou, when you're not.

Why don't you just claim now? I don't think it'd be considered premature.

Oh, hi Sly.
Kise definitely knew BBMolla was scum, because here, he was basically saying bluntly, "MAN UP, YOU COWARD!" He mighta known that Sly was scum as well, given his comment there, and might have been asking Sly to do something.

Pine wrote:This is totes scumMolla. Like, so hard it's giving me a boner from how obvious it is. With the sputtering, and brashness, and the daring us to make him claim? BL trying to cover for his mate just makes it clearer.

Vote: BBMolla

Back to L-2.
Note that Pine does pretty much exactly what BBMolla wanted at that point--getting himself closer to a lynch, and forming distancing immediately between Pine and BBMolla for instant towncred. Again, there was clearly a plan to get BBMolla lynched at some point or another. Through our paranoia, incompetence, and apathy, it took a lot longer than what the scum had planned, but the evidence looks quite strong that BBMolla meant to die, as he did in GvE, CvL.

Pine wrote:This is so scum too. And false as well. You were ridiculously wrong about Masons, and Nacho did not claim OR softclaim Mason. The conversation arose from my claim about Neighbors, then people being idiots about how two Town Neighbors were basically Masons.

BL, BB, Slysly. Lynch to victory.
And if Pine knew Sly was scum, then this was a good way to double-distance. With Kise and himself in the clear, he could get away with doing pretty much anything he'd like and not get called out for it, coasting by on the towncred of both his neighbor claim and his distancing.

Then again...

TS wrote:I still prefer your lynch greatly to nacho's though.
TS was again distancing from BBMolla without applying pressure, in the way scum would. (But again, I can still see it as town, not convinced one way or the other, despite leaning scum.)

Oversoul wrote:Pine, wouldn't it be more efficient for the scum to just leave you both alive with the WIFOM surronding both of you (if you are both town) since one of you will inevitably die?
Guess what happened? :P

BL wrote:The only problem with scum doing that is not everyone believe in the Town v Scum neighbor in this situation, I think only 1 or 2 people agree with it. Therefore all they will gain is killing that person, the situation on the other person won't change.
But more importantly...

[quote="kondi]Actually, VOTE: Pine, because HIS reasoning for BB attacking is crap. Specifically here:[/quote] Pointing to 291. He's right, overall, when I look at it--Pine's reasons for attacking BBMolla look incredibly fake, and the feeling is of course quite mutual, with BBMolla's attack on Pine looking just as faked.

TS continues his suspicion on chkflip, pointing out the same pattern from chkflip as on day one: going after a lesser scumread rather than the greater and more consistent scumread on BBMolla. Again, this directs attention BBMolla's way, and would not be a smart move as a scum player.

TS wrote:It's just that all of Chkflip's suspects so far have flipped town (except for Bb who i think will not) and I have a feeling pine will do likewise.
There's also this. He was basically stating a very reasonable and understandable perspective: that chkflip was soft-bussing BBMolla, distancing between them and trying to earn towncred while simultaneously trying to keep him alive. And from a town's perspective, that's incredibly easy to see in said situation. (It's one of the things which was my undoing in GvE,CvL after all.) From a scum's perspective, it doesn't come out nearly as naturally.

Keep in mind also that TS is on BBMolla by this point.

mcqueen wrote:Vote Pine.
Again, keep in mind, mcqueen,
the person considered a Village Idiot more often than not
was the nightkill N2. Yes, he was considered widely town for his antics, but that alone would not have justified his nightkill. There HAD to be a reason, and Pine was the player he most consistently pushed for all of day two.

And note Sly's reaction. Again, he takes Pine's side in the argument.

TS wrote:I don't mind sacrificing my towncred with seemingly inert questions and badgering when I think I'm getting somewhere. If I wanted to look town I'd have stopped pestering you long ago, but that's only half of the game.
TS bluntly says that he's willing to sacrifice being seen as town for the sake of actually scumhunting, which he was doing when pursuing his chkflip read.

Oversoul wrote:I can't make my mind up on Pine or Bunny.


Note These as well.

Pine wrote:Oversoul, didn't you know? Sly's scum.

This game is depressingly easy. BL, Slysly, BB, kondi. One of those is a derpfuck, the other three are our scumteam.
The same scumslip as TS. (Come to think of it, he showed it before as well.) Knowing that one scum (Sly) didn't have access to the QT, thinking there's only three scum when the numbers suggest four is a pretty strong scumslip. Add to that his immediate correction, and it looks like he might have figured out that the scum have a traitor as well.

mcqueen wrote:Nah, just a noob Pine slip.
And again, mcqueen's right in here, in that Pine's quite capable of faking being stupid as scum.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #856 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:09 am

Post by mastin2 »

Mod:
Could you fix the broken quote tag below
But more importantly...
This? Forgot the closing " after kondi.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #857 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:40 am

Post by mastin2 »

BL wrote:At the moment my mind is set on Pine, Oversoul, and Sly.
Pine - He's trying to do everything in his power to get me lynched based on meta. Wouldn't be so bad, but his whole case is based on meta which I just can't believe town would risk. But this may just be OMGUS, trying to figure out exactly what it is.
Sly - Sly and the whole Nacho thing is just weird. No one can call Nacho softclaiming, but he is strong-ho about it.


Nacho hammers home BBMolla. Note again that he's right: BBMolla voted for Pine for no reason and then backed down immediately after that.

PM wrote:Pine,
how confident are you that Bunnylover is scum, and what do you plan to do if Bunny is town?

Twistedspoon,
your jumping on BBmolla's wagon was insanely, insanely awkward but I'll disregard that given you towntold a bit before.


Pine wrote:@Projectmatt: I was ~80% (<--Made up number) certain that BL was scum based simply on the "2 Neighbors = 1 Town/1 scum" paradigm right from receiving my role PM. Then he tried to buddy up to me in the pregame, treating me as if he already knew I was Town when every indication would have been, were he Town, that I were scum. Then he scummed up the pre-crash. I'm absolutely convinced that he's scum, and absolutely nothing he's said has made me question that conviction. I have no plans for him flipping Town. I suppose I'd cross that bridge when I get there, and probably get lynched for my trouble. Wouldn't blame you much for doing it, either, given my insistence on pushing the setup spec angle on BL. Like I said, not worried about it.

PE: Yeah, Nacho, I'm pretty sure you're talking to a wall there. Sly's the only one who buys his bullshit, and I don't think he can be logicked out of this. He's pot-committed.
Extremely relevent, and also has a piece on Sly.

mcqueen wrote:He should have easily known that mafia wouldn't be targeting him Night 1, with a claimed cop out there. That's what disproved his argument, against my theory, that Pine exposed Bunnylover, tried to get him mislynched, so when Bunnylover flipped town, he could say, "Well, I guess we have a town-town neighbor group, after all." I did not like his very flawed argument, so I called him out on the flaws, and voted him. He needs to die.
Again, this is exactly the kind of argument which I feel has merit, but is the sort of thing which would make Pine scream, "YOU'RE RIGHT FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS, MAN!"

Pine wrote:@391: Actually, I hadn't read the new pages of D1 then, and didn't know that Damon had claimed. Hell, I still haven't read them. I'm using a modified replacement strategy. It's not like you ever learn much by reading what came before, and this strategy has never failed me. True story.
...Which he kinda does. :P

Also note BBMolla's awkward and forced distancing here.

Matt wrote:Pine - I forgot to ask, is it possible to paraphrase or quote things from the QT or is that against the guidelines? I can't find anything regarding it in the game rules. I think it would be a gigantic help if you could paraphrase some of the things Bunny said, but yeah


TS wrote:I know it looked odd, but Bb lurked hard and I've already said why else I found him scum

I don't care how it looks when I'm adamant someone is mafiosi. It was hardly a wagon with only nacho on anyways.
Again, note the contrast in TS's style to Pine's. Pine is overall fairly concerned about himself, trying to stay alive and get others lynched, in stark contrast to his original gambit. TS is perfectly willing to take the criticism, if it means that he can nail the scum because of it.

410 is worth a look.

Kise wrote:What do we get from that, as any alignment Bunny would flip? It lost steam and I'm more convinced Pine is just tunneling. Can you also explain why the wagons suck?
But note here, that Kise wants to derail the neighbor wagons, and defends Pine.

There's some distancing on page 17 as well, and again, it looks forced between Pine and BBMolla.

Note that knox had BL suspicion.

BL wrote:You didn't suspect me.
The first post (after T-Dog) was you calling me scum, not suspecting me as scum, but calling me scum.
You then posted (I still haven't posted), this is my interpretation of your next post, that you are not willing to change your mind about this read and that we should keep it "real".
I then post what I posted in the thread. The reason it gives me the benefit of the doubt is because nothing I said had any affect on you thinking I was scum. You already decided on the fact I was scum.
Your response was that I was trying to play a game. You state that meta states 1 member of a neighborhood will be scum. Its not you, so it must be me. You do not want to engage in any QT conversation with me unless I am cop confirmed innocent.

Please be free to correct me if I over-assumed anything or am lying about what happened in this quicktopic, which you won't because its the truth. I believe this is a pretty good accurate summary of what happened.


Pine wrote:Arright, so your argument then is to lynch me because I've annoyed and mocked you. I could forgive it if you thought there was a Town/Scum Neighbor dichotomy and had concluded that I was the Scum Neighbor, but you're just a butthurt ten-year-old.

McQueen has absolutely no credibility in my eyes anymore, and I will be making every effort not to engage in his ego-stroking until he grows the fuck up.
Remember when I said Pine'd be screaming "RIGHT FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS!"?

Yeah, this is when he does it. :P Of particular note is that, again, mcqueen died night 2. If you don't think that's important, you're crazy. :P

Sly wrote:With that said, I would vote her before Pine at this point, though Pine's townieness has slipped a bit today.
Again, Sly sided with Pine.

Also relevent.

TS wrote:If BL didn't always play a defensive game then I'd be more tempted to see BL scum.
I'm not saying she can't be, it's just that I know she plays a similar, quiet, defensive game as town.

I'm preferring a BB, sly lynch
Again, TS pushed all the right people, in a way which looks natural.

kondi wrote:- TS's response in #30 to BB's #29 makes me feel like they couldn't be partners.
- TS's reaction to the Cop claim in #139 feels very town. The fact that this has happened with TS before strengthens that read.
I can also buy this.

Oversoul wrote:Because Pine v. BL is distracting as all hell and will not end until one of them is either lynched or killed and at this point I think it is safer to remove the distractions as early as possible to have an easier late game.
And this opinion makes him a serious threat.

Another important fact--Nacho believed Pine was town, far more so than BL, and again, died after Oversoul did.

BL wrote:Yeah I didn't want to go into a 1 v 1. I'm town, don't know his alignment. If I am wrong about his alignment then I know I will be lynched. Then the question of where my suspicion is coming from comes to mind. Do I think Pine is scum because he is tunneling me which is clouding my mind or is Pine scum because the way he is doing it comes from scum.


I'm giving you what you want and you decline it?
I think it was Oversoul who said it, we need to get rid of the neighbor distraction.
Pine has 2 votes, I have 7 now. Lynch me.


Sly wrote:If you actually had 7, I'd hammer you. Self voting is not a pro-town maneuver.
Again, Sly calls BL scum over Pine, but tries to avoid pushing that lynch through.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
Twistedspoon
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6093
Joined: January 3, 2011

Post Post #858 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:44 am

Post by Twistedspoon »

In post 851, mastin2 wrote:
TS wrote:I bold stuff all the time, amigo.
Am I the third mafiosi?


No-one can really comment on BB yet. He's right to be confused. He read zilch of the game beforehand. I think a townie would be just as paranoid at having zero information
This, however, is borderline scumslip from TS. Three scum is almost certainly the number which was in the QT. And he opens with a defense of BBMolla. But on the other hand...
Let it be, BB. If he truly believes you to be scum you'll hardly be able to convince him now will you?
...This is a little too blatant to be typical scum interactions. Rather, it reads as someone who is talking to someone they believe to be town.

Just want to say that in context it isn't a scumslip at all. The person I was replying too was asserting that BB was mafiosi at that point and I was offering the other side to the argument "I think a townie would..."

weird how in retrospect I was defending the new Rep BB at one point though. I only seem to recall the parts where I was trying to lynch him.
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good

"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #859 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:07 am

Post by mastin2 »

For the record--I'm getting paranoid about TS. He's been hanging around the forum, as if he's waiting for me to cast a vote, so that he can finish it off.

PM wrote:Basically, Pine's case on Bunny Lover is unverifable awkward setup speculation that holds no water whatsoever and no, I can easily see both of them being town. (Although BL's self vote is just ..sigh). I would STRONGLY suggest not lynching Pine. BL is an OK wagon I guess but I wouldn't be surprised if he flips town and Pine is town as well.

Twisted Spoon should stop coasting, it's really, really annoying and makes me want to second guess my town read on him.
This doesn't exactly hep it, either.

Pine wrote:If BL is a Townie, then the logic of scum shooting one of us to cast suspicion on the other still makes sense. BL shouldn't be trying to fatalistically "get it over with" he should be trying to absorb a NK.

This is a pity play on BL's part, and an ATE to the max.
But again, there's this.

Pine wrote:Are you really this dense, or do you just play it on TV?

If one or both of us are Town, we wouldn't have fakeclaimed Neighbors. Therefore, we are either both scum, or both actual Neighbors. Therefore, you're suggesting that we're both scum, and I'm pushing my buddy's death, when said death would result in a flip that would get me lynched too.

You try and sound logical with the reference to Occam, but you haven't actually applied any reasoning to the situation. Go back to your hole, or do something productive.
And this response to Andy was horribad.

Also relevent.

And note again, two town neighbors in this game with our already-flipped power is a little overpowered, since again, they can act as masons if they don't cast suspicion towards each other, and as Pine was so adamant about, standard site meta suggests that there'd be one scum and one town.

Pine wrote:I have never wavered in thinking you're scum. No idea how you twisted that into anything different.

Neighbors are not always going to be Town/Scum. But most of the time, they are. Hence my initial suspicions. Then your pre-game behavior, reaction to being suspected, later odd actions, and most recently your "woe is me" massive AtE and self-vote locked me in. If you're NOT scum, you need to go back to Newbie games.

And your proposed "wouldn't scum always claim Neighbor" scenario is moronic. The problem is that when the loser of the double bus flipped, they'd flip as a non-neighbor, bringing their buddy down with them. It's like scum fakeclaiming Masons together - it can be effective, but only if they never get killed. They irrevocably lock themselves together. That's why Andycya deserves chiding, for not thinking through his suggestion. Besides, they could simply double bus the life out of one another to a very similar effect.
(Also, note the irony in the suggestion of a double-bus, considering that's EXACTLY what it looks like Pine and BBMolla actually WERE doing.)

Sly wrote:One more vote and I will hammer.
Again, note Sly's refusal to join the BL lynch, despite pushing BL as scum for so long. Why the hesitation to lynch BL, especially when he was one of the main alternatives? The only answer I can think of is to protect Pine. It just doesn't make sense any other way.

And once people switch over to him, it seems like he's beginning to get worried.

Sly wrote:Mastin, ask your confirmed vanilla self if you'd rather lynch a useless neighbor or a power role.

UNVOTE: Nacho

VOTE: Bunnylover

Now that the idiocy has went this far, do you want to lynch me or force scum to kill me?
Only now does he switch, when his life is in firm danger. (Also, note this is where he began to call me a VT. A claim I confirmed that day.)

BBMolla wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sly

I prefer this over BL and I want to avoid a NL.
Again, protection of the neighborhood. It's as if the scum didn't want it to be broken, as if they WANTED to keep it in tact for as long as humanly possible.

Sly wrote:Mastin, you and super sleuth mcqueen continue leading the idiot wagon to a scum win.
This was basically Sly signalling the scum to "KILL MASTIN AND MCQUEEN".

T-Bone wrote:SlySly - 8(Knox, Mcqueen, Kise, Mastin, Bunnylover, Pine, Kondi, BBmolla)
Again, this is one of the main things which gives me pause about Pine being scum.
For Pine to be scum, ALL other scum must have been on SlySly, since BBMolla was the hammer, Kise was on there before that, and Pine was also present.
Simultaneously, it'd require the Lowell lynch to ALL be town, with TS as the hammer.

Whereas if my TS paranoia is justified (he's still there...watching...waiting...not saying anything......), then it's a far more reasonable two scum on the Sly lynch and one scum on the Lowell lynch.

But again.

TS wrote:Post coming today. I do hope so. I can't blame anyone for lynching me whilst I have a post in the making so I'll try to get one up. No excuse for my neglect of the game though.
Look at TS's willingness to accept the possibility he'll get lynched. A kinda sorta type of apathy, where he doesn't really mind if he's the one to go, having been lynched for his neglect--it's an extremely natural reaction, and something I'd expect to see from town.

Andy, are you a Miller?
There's also his whole Miller Gambit, by asking Andy about it to get reactions--and as it so happened, he was right, so this again looks fairly good for TS. Not only does the gambit not seem like something scum would do, but the fact that it ended up being RIGHT suggests that TS probably didn't think of it in a mafia QT.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
Twistedspoon
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6093
Joined: January 3, 2011

Post Post #860 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:14 am

Post by Twistedspoon »

In post 859, mastin2 wrote:For the record--I'm getting paranoid about TS. He's been hanging around the forum, as if he's waiting for me to cast a vote, so that he can finish it off.

I'm waiting for pine and his views. I'm happy to comment on your thoughts where you want them, but I'd rather wait until your thought stream is out before i interrupt anymore

I see your case on pine but... I don't want to judge until i hear his responses himself. It's he who needs to speak right now I feel.
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good

"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #861 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:17 am

Post by mastin2 »

Pine wrote:@Mastin & Nacho: Of those on your list (we disagree about BL, but I'll let it slide for now) I have the strongest scumread on BB, followed closely (and rising) by Chkflip (for his really scummy actions late yesterday).

Unvote
Vote: BBMolla
Ironicly enough, this is exactly what TS had been pushing for some time before.

I liked TS's way better. :P

But more important.

I've been going by 5-pages-at-a-time, but guess what I found?

Pine wrote:Ehhh...that's faulty logic. I know that when I'm scum, I often pick people I don't think are going to accrue Doctors or Watchers, and I almost always pick targets that are going to make Town go "Huh?" Well, unless I have an agenda. But that's the problem with NK WIFOM.
This goldmine, which is quite frankly post-worthy by itself. He points out the flaw in going after the dead peoples' reads. (Also sort-of suggests that he doesn't want me reading mcqueen.) Beyond that, it also says that he wants people to go "Huh?" to the nightkills. Guess what we all did in response to the PM nightkill? Or in TS's case, to the BL nightkill? (I of course saw it coming.) And to some extent, the Oversoul nightkill. And of course, the mcqueen nightkill. All of which fit the modus operandi which he describes.

And beyond that--he DOES have an agenda in this game as scum: a showdown between the Palisade hydra. The idea was probably sparked by me, actually, suggesting the town bloc. After that, Pine probably got it into his head that he could narrow the game down to be just members of the Palisade hydra, but was forced to take out Oversoul and Nacho along the way, as they were threats--but after that, he wanted to get rid of all the players not members of the Palisade hydra, to play a Palisade endgame. It's the perfect Pine move, and it's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect of him. More than that, he's the only one who could really get away with it. TS certainly couldn't, and I have trouble thinking the thought of a Palisade endgame crossing his mind. It'd be less satisfying for him, because quite frankly, he hasn't been part of the Palisade hydra in over a year and probably feels far less attatched to it than any of the others, so making an endgame of it wouldn't have much of a point.

Like I said, this is pretty much one of the most condemning posts in the game, since it's painting out the exact canvas which has transpired.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #862 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:46 am

Post by mastin2 »

BL wrote:@TS: I'm more then sure I expressed my read on SlySly before any kind of wagon formed on him and was early on his wagon. How was I ridding it?
As for the QT, we did post. Me just saying its possible to talk, and Pine saying that 1 scum were down 2 to go and something else that wasn't important. I think it was that talking probably won't happening.


Nacho, on Sly's VT result on me wrote:What is the point of a traitor rolecop that can't find scum?
If he could find scum, and he claimed mastin was vanilla, that either 1) sets up a 1v1 between him and a scumbuddy, or 2) fucks up any fakeclaims mastin was planning in the future. That doesn't make any sense at all, coming from a traitor perspective.
Relevent.

Note also The Pine-BBMolla interaction starting here. In particular, this.
Actually, I'd love that. Why am I scum, BB? I just read your entire ISO, and couldn't find a single reason you've posted, discounting your rant post-crash about how I didn't post at all on D1.


Oversoul wrote:Yes it was a code. It was Nacho-scum attacking town twisted spoon (I inverted to throw off people) for attacking Andy-scum.

I'm still not certain whether this is a scum move of trying to white knight a person who has been getting pressure (Andy) or if it defending a buddy, but quick defense looked suspicious in my mind.
Note the TS townread.

Matt wrote:Hi Pine

A few questions -

After Sly's scumflip do you have as much as a confident read on BL? You seem to have gone down quite a bit on your tunneling of her
Extremely important post by Matt.

Pine wrote:@Matt: Sly flipping Traitor has zero effect on my confidence in BLscum, for obvious reasons that Oversoul mentioned. However, I'm not pushing hard on him right now because I'm having independent, errant doubts about BL. The net result is still BL=scum, but I'm very concerned about confirmation bias.

Besides, if BL is scum, he's basically a goon. I have other strong scumreads, and it's very likely they'll flip scum PR. Also, we've already identified BL as a prime candidate. He's not going anywhere
And this to me seems like a scumtastic response.

Side-note. Another thing to keep in mind: TS was rather consistently near the bottom of my townlist, and in fact was in my suspects. While Pine was as well, if my memory serves, TS was there longer and more consistently, meaning keeping me alive in endgame against Pine (who, again, I stated to be mason-like with BL) would only be a liability against him--especially when you account for Sly's rolecop on me and how many players used it to clear me. Nacho among 'em.

BL wrote:I would be more inclined to vote Pine over BBMolla unless something smacks me in the face with why BB is scum.
Important.

TS wrote:I agree with Bl somewhat (though I still find pine rather townish)
Also important, though.

However,
T-Bone wrote:Bunnylover - 1 (Twistedspoon)
Again, this...is less than good for TS, especially after the above.

BL wrote:@Mastin:
Agree with the lack of power in town.
With 2 of my scum read flipping town, I'm willing to believe Pine is town.
While in the previous day, it had begun to form, by this point from BL, this is what solidified those thinking that the neighborhood was all-town to be in the majority.


Pine wrote:Still pretty sure that BB is scum, but Knox probably is too, so I'll back your play Mastin.

Vote: Knox
Again, a knox mislynch would do nothing but good for Pine, as it'd land them in mylo, where Pine could easily back out of his bus on BBMolla, or push it through all the way if need be--he does, after all, keep BBMolla in his sights that day.

Pine wrote:BL and I were able to narrow down the two remaining scum to {BB, Knox, Matt}. Matt is the least likely of the three, but we have the ability to just lynch all three of them for the win.

Unvote
Vote: Matt
And here's the critical play--again, Pine really doesn't care who he lynches, and is riding the free towncred. BBMolla is expendable, because he can lynch both Matt and knox, getting away with it, and that'd give him a free ride into lylo and beyond, to victory. I'd further speculate that by this point, Pine would know he'd be bringing TS and I into lylo, getting rid of BL once it was convenient to do so. He couldn't do that until a day before lylo, because if one of the "masons" was nightkilled, and then the other lived...it'd be rather incriminating for the living one to have dodged the nightkill.

Again, BBmolla's vote looks incredibly fake, as does Pine's response to it. (On the other hand, TS had a nearly identical response as well. :P)

Nacho wrote:What drunk me was trying to say is that you're pushing a lynch on old reasoning that didn't work, and you're acting like it's an obvious lynch to make. Why do you expect Pine will get lynched based off this, or even that he will come any closer to being lynched?
Again, this was a good point by Nacho.

But...

Nacho wrote:TS, why did you pop in to do absolutely nothing?
It's hard to ignore this when Nacho died that very night.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #863 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:24 am

Post by mastin2 »

Matt wrote:although i have to wonder if a mastin/nacho/pine wagon is really an all town wagon
Very, VERY important quote, here.

Also note that again, if Pine lynched matt/knox and then the other, win right then and there.

Also note This.

Pine wrote:Today we hand BBMolla. Tomorrow we hang ProjectMatt. The next day, we hang Knox.
Again, this looks like opening with a bus, especially since Pine doesn't actually vote for BBMolla in said post, and how come BBMolla was consistently at the top?. He doesn't vote until after I call for a change in the order, at which he is absolutely fine switching over to matt without skipping a heartbeat.

However, in Pine's favor, TS was around on the forum but was not playing in this game at all. (He was playing chess at the time. Yes, I stalked him. :P)

BL wrote:What was the reason for eliminating TwistedSpoon as scum?
Also important.

However,
Pine wrote:I don't remember, I just remember that it was pretty clear. The Palisade team is all-Town, possible exception of Mastin. Beginning to suspect him for being so damned agreeable.
Here he is already setting me up as being scum (despite the clear evidence against it), and leaves open the TS door because there's no reasoning on him being town.

Again, this is where I call Pine out on not putting his money where his mouth is, and again, his weak-as-hell response was this:
Pine wrote:Thought I already had, actually.

Unvote
Vote: BB
And after this, PM (who participated in the BBMolla lynch) ends up dead.
BL (who also participated in the BBMolla lynch) also ends up dead eventually--and I don't think this is coincidence. It's as if the members of that wagon were being picked off, to leave TS open and exposed. Again, the person who has more to benefit from this is Pine. (That said, I can see it as being TS, eliminating people he sees as being seen likely as town for being on that lynch.)

TS wrote:Pine is almost conf. town after BB interactions and everything else
Again, if TS is scum, keeping Pine around (as opposed to BL) is almost completely suicidal.
Whereas if TS is town, Pine keeping HIM around is an easy key to a quick victory.


Also note that I think Pine has a kinda sorta "audience for one" view of lylo--you need only target one person and get them on your side in order to win. You can see evidence of this not only in today (via him immediately gunning for me, playing to TS's favor), but also yesterday, again with the target of TS:
Pine wrote:This was the only post in the QT last night. BL didn't respond. It's actually rekindling some BL suspicion, as I suspect I may have been the bodyguarded target last night.
So again, the neighbors are not confirmed town to him, anymore, and beyond that, this is playing to TS, since TS said Pine was town but clearly wasn't as sold on BL being town. In other words, Pine was saying everything he needed to get on TS's good side, here, and it also shows some backtracking from Pine, via him going back on the neighbors-confirmed-town stance. Furthermore, if the neighbors aren't confirmed town, and BL's a dead confirmed town neighbor, where does that leave Pine?

It leaves him as having exposed himself, via all the hard attacks he made for the neighborhood having one scum in it.

BL wrote:Matt protect Mastin/Myself (60%/40%). Edit: After reading Mastin ISO, I'm 90% sure Matt protected Mastin due to Mastin last post.
I don't think Matt would have picked anyone else other myself and Mastin, the only other person I would consider would be Pine but looking at his interaction the past two days I doubt Matt would protect you.

Truthfully with 5 alive ruling out Mastin as somewhat obvious town and Pine and I as Neighbors who should be Masons it leaves Twistedspoon and Knox replacement.
Vote will be placed on Knox replacement so far.
This quote leans both ways, though. Clearly, BL thought I was town. But BL was hinting at some Pine suspicion, not really considering that Matt could protect Pine. But on the other hand, BL was clearly for the "lynch knox/TS, and if they flip town, lynch the other", giving TS motive to kill BL as well.

TS wrote:forgive me if I fail to recall this, but why are you masons now?
Again, TS is clearly expressing suspicion, and mainly towards BL.

Pine wrote:Because of the Traitor flips. Scum Neighbor in a 2-Neighbor setup is a negative utility to scum, like Miller or similar is for Town. Traitors are also somewhat negative utility. The scum setup is probably 2 Traitor PRs and 2 Goons, so having one of those goons further disadvantaged would be unreasonable for scum.

Ergo, BL and I are pretty close to Masons.
And again, Pine's quick to respond to TS. But beyond that, what happened to BL suspicion having been somewhat rekindled, if--again, as he states here--they're supposed to be confirmed-town?

Split wrote:So it seems mastin is might be confirmed town due to Sly's investigation. I would say that his playing seems off sometimes, with flipflopping on some players without providing reasoning. Generally pro-town though.

I can't find much in Twistedspoon's post history to take issue with.

Pine seems town, so I'd vote BL over him. Also, with how many town PR's there have been, I want to vote BL as the scum part of the neighborhood.
If you order this, it basically goes Mastin>TS>Pine>BL as the strength of his reads, towniest to scummiest.

Pine wrote:It makes zero sense for scum to kill Matt. He was obvious mislynch fodder, and probably would have gone next.
A reminder: Pine ADMITTED that as scum, he'd make kills which make the town go, "...Huh?", and what kill would do that moreso than Matt's? There pretty much wouldn't be any. It fits perfectly into his kill pattern.

And again, BL was primed for a mislynch. BL hammered split, without a second's hesitation, reeking of scum. TS was clearly suspicious, and I clearly was worried I'd just lost to a BL-Pine scumteam.

The ONLY player defended BL as town at that point?

Pine wrote:Obviously. Which is why Bunny's hammer is obviously not a scumhammer.
Pine.

And again. No matter how many times I run over the scenario...Pine has the least to lose by killing BL, and probably the most to gain. It fits perfectly into his pattern, and more than that, it fits Pine's ego to want a Mastin-TS-Pine endgame, where he can come up victorious.

TS as scum could gun for BL. BL would gun back, but TS would have a shot, and mastin-paranoia would still be viable. If I died, it's even worse, as he's got both neighbors thinking that the other is town, against him.
TS as scum can't as realistically hope to win against me and Pine. Pine sits in the nearly-confirmed pile, and I do as well--so despite BL's suspicion on him, shooting BL is still shooting himself in the foot.

Pine as scum can gun for anyone. Shoot me, and BL-TS fight is a guaranteed victory. Shoot TS, and Pine can possibly team up with BL to get me lynched. Shoot BL, eliminate a variable which could act against expectations (such as expressing Pine suspicion), and it sets up a TS-me fight, perfect because I've been suspicious of TS a lot of the game, expressed extreme suspicion at his absence two days ago, and as you're clearly seeing here, am very concerned that I'm making the wrong call about. And more than that, because TS sees Pine as close-to-confirmed-town, it sets TS up against me.

So basically, in any scenario, Pine has the upper hand. But the BL kill gives him the best shot (as it eliminates the largest variable, the neighbor partner) and also gets what he wants: a personal victory against the entire Palisade hydra.

TS wrote:I don't believe in voting blocs anyways. In retrospect it was a good idea for me to have declined that invitation
But this is actually false; TS accepted the invitation into the bloc, and actually was part of it for a while.

But again...

Pine wrote:What the fuck are you talking about, Mastin? Stating all of that and leaving it open-ended, not saying who it was, looks like you want one of the two of us to walk into some kind of trap, or one of us to jump to a conclusion, because you were just ambiguous enough to apply it to either.

Leaning strongl to Mastinscum now.
This was quite the scummy response as well.

Then again, TS was basically sheeping Pine with regards to the above. And he's wishy-washy, in that he was sheeping Pine, but now is also slightly sheeping me by saying that I brought up some very good points against Pine.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #864 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:37 am

Post by mastin2 »

Should be leaving, now, but I can give you my overall impression--

Many pieces of information scattered throughout the thread subtly suggest that TS is the last scum. There's enough evidence to create a picture against him, and the scum thought process IS there, but it's incredibly weak. If TS has been playing a scum game, it's been a very strong scum game, with very few gaps in it. He's almost completely dodged mention by any of the scum, but that's a double-edged sword, and I can't really make a call one way or the other with it. His reads overall have been solid, but he sometimes goes about it in a weird way. But in general, overall, with his way of interacting, his far more natural tone when posting, his easy-to-follow thought process which generally makes a lot more sense as town than as scum...

...He looks like if he were scum, he'd have earned the win.

Pine on the other hand...while the pieces of information suggesting TS is scum are scattered, for Pine, they form a rather clear picture from start to finish. While I'm deathly afraid some confirmation bias plays into that, I still feel like it overall makes the most sense--the pieces suggesting Pine are town are the ones scattered all over the place, rather than the pieces suggesting he is scum. There have been plenty of smaller towntells, but none of them which can't be faked, compared to plenty of things which overall feel like they're classic Pine-scum plays. While by no means a weak scum player, Pine's play this game if scum looks like it's been a little lacking. The best thing in his favor is the BBMolla stunt. He's been consistently the focus of the scum (again, double-edged sword) with two of the three flipped defending him hardcore (and also trying to keep BL alive, which by proxy defends him), but the third would have to be powerbussing him, and have it be mutual. His reads haven't really appeared that solid, his play has seemed somewhat opportunistic, he's been pushing all the wrong people, and in general, his tone (especially in the afforementioned BBMolla fight) comes across as incredibly artificial and forced, as if he's going through the motions without actually believing much of what he says. His play makes picture-perfect sense as scum, and I can follow it start to finish. The kills fit his modus operandi, and he has the motive for each and every one of them. All in all, his play just feels like it's scum-play.

But it's not as clear-cut as I once thought it was. If I had to give it percentages, it'd be between 75/25 and 60/40.

Yet when it comes down to it...I think that part of the choice in the end will be who I'd lose to. And in that contest, it's no contest at all. If I lose to TS, I'll have felt slightly bad in having made the wrong call and been fooled by his tactics...but not too bad, as TS clearly has been playing strong, and looking pro-town overall. If I lose to Pine, then considering that's where my instincts are going, I'd feel horrible. The whole dead QT would rally against me for not having followed through with it. (Okay, so they'll do that if I vote for Pine and TS is the last scum, anyway, but they'd do it MORE so if TS is town and Pine is scum. :P) And above all else, if Pine is scum, he'd be able to gloat at that one final victory.


I've run out of time, but I'll review the evidence tomorrow. Maybe cast my vote then as well.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
Pine
Pine
In Your Head
User avatar
User avatar
Pine
In Your Head
In Your Head
Posts: 16763
Joined: February 27, 2011
Location: Upstate New York

Post Post #865 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:51 pm

Post by Pine »

Holy Christ, Mastin. I'm not bothering to read all that. You've fallen into your default "OhshitshitshitI'mabouttobelynched" wild flailing mode. The only part I'm going to bother responding to is the only part I cared to read, 841. You state yourself as confirmed Town, when you were nothing of the fucking sort.

You're trying to seriously say that in a Traitor/Traitor/Goon/Other scumteam, the other is a Neighbor, further inhibiting the scumteam? No. Mastin's reticence to drop a vote indicates to me that he doesn't want to confirm TS as Town to me, and wants to hammer as soon as one of us votes the other.

I doubt I could be convinced of TS scum at this point. If he is, he deserves to win, and Mastin's ridiculous behavior the last day justifies the loss.

Vote: Mastin
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

Act 3, Scene 1 of
Julius Caesar
, by W. Shakespeare
Twistedspoon
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6093
Joined: January 3, 2011

Post Post #866 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:19 pm

Post by Twistedspoon »

VOTE: Mastin

you should really read Mastin's posts Pine. I love them to pieces. I mean then again you'd probably hate them. But I love them. :D

I knew It was a good idea to keep you both to Lylo. You're the best <3

(If It's any consolation I'd have felt slightly better about hammering pine with you after all the work you put into today, Mastin ^^)

Hey Emerl!

oh yeah before I forget: http://quicktopic.com/47/H/M3BEbw5FfGzg

Is there a dead qt? I'll enjoy reading that ^^
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good

"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape
Twistedspoon
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6093
Joined: January 3, 2011

Post Post #867 (ISO) » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:25 pm

Post by Twistedspoon »

ftr, Mastin you had me thinking Pine was actually scum and myself town at one point. It's that good

In post 853, mastin2 wrote:This is also important from TS.

In fact, it's VERY important.

TS tells chkflip to abandon Lowell (town), and pursue his own scumreads (BBMolla), even if TS disagrees with them. If that's a bus, it's done in the most roundabout clever way possible, and quite frankly, could be the deciding factor alone by itself.

I remember this part. I loved how well I tried to put myself into a townie mindset. Scum just doesn't come naturally to me anymore (except for teh lurking u_u )

when I bus I don't do it for credit
I do it to discredit

that way they can't been seen as a bus and only therefore become a sort of reverse psychology bus.
weird huh?
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good

"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape
User avatar
Pine
Pine
In Your Head
User avatar
User avatar
Pine
In Your Head
In Your Head
Posts: 16763
Joined: February 27, 2011
Location: Upstate New York

Post Post #868 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:24 am

Post by Pine »

Dammit Mastin, why do you have to throw off scumtells in LyLo >_>

I was ridiculously obvTown, but attacking both of us without committing was terribad

Game was tainted with all of the modkills. That's not to diminish TS's victory, he ha us fairly in LyLo, but modkills should not have been made. Replacements needed to be found, kills were unfair to both sides
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

Act 3, Scene 1 of
Julius Caesar
, by W. Shakespeare
Twistedspoon
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6093
Joined: January 3, 2011

Post Post #869 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:00 am

Post by Twistedspoon »

it was really about who I brought to Lylo

Pine was pretty sure I was town and from meta I can never win against BL. Plus i needed the wifom aspect to incriminate pine, as he'd lived so long as an obvtown (to me) and had BL be NK'd before him. I'd set it up to have pine's survival prey on Mastin's paranoia whilst also making mastin seem suspect in allowing him to live so long as I killed PM instead (who to be fair was rather suspicious of me).
I think killing McQueen and the others early on also set up pine well too, but as long as I continued to proclaim how townie I found him I didn't have to worry about his own survival

modkills are never fun but I felt they were perhaps necessary to provide momentum. The game was going nowhere. I support the mod's decision really.
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good

"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape
User avatar
Pine
Pine
In Your Head
User avatar
User avatar
Pine
In Your Head
In Your Head
Posts: 16763
Joined: February 27, 2011
Location: Upstate New York

Post Post #870 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:20 am

Post by Pine »

Psh, you would :)

Props to you for the setup. You made the right choices, and you, at least, deserved the win.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

Act 3, Scene 1 of
Julius Caesar
, by W. Shakespeare
Twistedspoon
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Twistedspoon
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6093
Joined: January 3, 2011

Post Post #871 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:26 am

Post by Twistedspoon »

A 3:1 tradeoff isn't a bad tradeoff at all though for town in terms of modkills but I digress
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Test everything, but hold fast onto what is good

"Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick"
~Screwtape
User avatar
T-Bone
T-Bone
He/Him
A Cut Above
User avatar
User avatar
T-Bone
He/Him
A Cut Above
A Cut Above
Posts: 9041
Joined: February 18, 2011
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Shrug City
Contact:

Post Post #872 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:52 am

Post by T-Bone »

That's a lynch!

Mastin - Vanilla Townie
- Lynched Day 8

Pine - Town Neighbor
- Endgamed Day 8

Twistedspoon - Mafia Godfather
- Winner Day 8

Graveyard QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/akuebParGjnS

Mafia QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/M3BEbw5FfGzg

Neighborhood QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/48iNHJrZkABY


Mcqueen - Vanilla Townie
You are a vanilla townie and have no special powers. Of course you always have your voice and your vote. You win when all Anti-Town forces eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Lowell - Vanilla Townie
You are a vanilla townie and have no special powers. Of course you always have your voice and your vote. You win when all Anti-Town forces eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Kondi2424 - Vanilla Townie
You are a vanilla townie and have no special powers. Of course you always have your voice and your vote. You win when all Anti-Town forces eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Mastin2 - Vanilla Townie
You are a vanilla townie and have no special powers. Of course you always have your voice and your vote. You win when all Anti-Town forces eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Oversoul - Vanilla Townie
You are a vanilla townie and have no special powers. Of course you always have your voice and your vote. You win when all Anti-Town forces eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Chkflip - Vanilla Townie
You are a vanilla townie and have no special powers. Of course you always have your voice and your vote. You win when all Anti-Town forces eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Damon Gant - Town Cop
You are a Cop. Each night you may investigate a player. You will get a result of either "Guilty" or "Not Guilty" from your investigation. You win when all Anti-Town forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Andycyca - Town Miller
You are a Miller. Upon being investigated by an investigation role you will turn up as a member of the mafia to the investigator. You win when all Anti-Town forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Projectmatt - Town Bodyguard
You are a Bodyguard. Each night you may guard another player. If that player is targeted for a kill you will step in front and take the kill instead. You win when all Anti-Town forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


Nachomamma8 - Town Bodyguard
You are a Bodyguard. Each night you may guard another player. If that player is targeted for a kill you will step in front and take the kill instead. You win when all Anti-Town forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Splitfarvle - Town Tracker
You are a Tracker. Each night you may target another player to see what night action they do, if any. You will not be given information as to what the action might have been. You win when all Anti-Town forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Pine - Town Neighbor
You are a Neighor. You belong to the neighborhood consisting of yourself and Bunnylover. You may talk to each other during the night phase only. You are not sure of his alignment. You win when all Anti-Town Forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Your QT is - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/48iNHJrZkABY

Bunnylover - Town Neighbor
You are a Neighor. You belong to the neighborhood consisting of yourself and Pine. You may talk to each other during the night phase only. You are not sure of his alignment. You win when all Anti-Town Forces are eliminated.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Your QT is - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/48iNHJrZkABY




Twistedspoon - Mafia Godfather
You are the Godfather. As the Godfather, each night you may choose to blend with the town to appear innocent in any investigations, or hide in a safehouse and become bulletproof for the night. You may not use both at the same time.

Additionally the Mafia have a faction kill. Each night one member of the Mafia may target another player to kill them.

Additionally you know that there are two traitors among the town. Once per night you may elect to recruit one of those players back into the mafia. You can decide to recruit Traitor Alpha or Beta. If you have multiple players in the Mafia faction alive, you can do this and use the mafia faction kill. If only one member of the Mafia faction is alive, recruiting a traitor will forgo the Mafia faction kill.

You win when the mafia (including unrecruited Traitors) equal or outnumber the town, and nothing can prevent this majority.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Your Mafia QT is - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/M3BEbw5FfGzg

BBmolla - Mafia Goon
You are a Mafia Goon. You have no individual night ability.

However the Mafia have a faction kill. Each night one member of the Mafia may target another player to kill them.

Additionally you know that there are three traitors among the town. Once per night you may elect to recruit one of those players back into the mafia. You can decide to recruit Traitor Alpha or Beta. If you have multiple players in the Mafia faction alive, you can do this and use the mafia faction kill. If only one member of the Mafia faction is alive, recruiting a traitor will forgo the Mafia faction kill.

You win when the mafia (including unrecruited Traitors) equal or outnumber the town, and nothing can prevent this majority.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888

Your Mafia QT is - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/M3BEbw5FfGzg


Kise - Mafia Traitor Jailkeeper
You are a Traitor for the mafia. You've successfully inflitrated the town. Until you are recruited back to the mafia faction, you will appear as town to any investigations. You know that C-Worl and Chimera are the Mafia faction. You are also a Jailkeeper. Each night you may target a player to put them in jail. This will both protect them from any kills, but also roleblock them from taking any action during the night.

The mafia are able to recall you at any time during a night phase. Should this happen your role will change to Mafia Jailkeeper, and you will no longer investigate as a member of the town.

You win when the mafia equal or outnumber the town, and nothing can prevent this majority.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888


SlySly - Mafia Traitor Rolecop
You are a Traitor for the mafia. You've successfully inflitrated the town. Until you are recruited back to the mafia faction, you will appear as town to any investigations. You know that C-Worl and Chimera are the Mafia faction. You are also a Rolecop. Each night you may target a player and learn the name of their role. You will not be told of their alignment.

The mafia are able to recall you at any time during a night phase. Should this happen your role will change to Mafia Rolecop, and you will no longer investigate as a member of the town.

You win when the mafia equal or outnumber the town, and nothing can prevent this majority.

Please reply to this PM to confirm that you received your role. You may also ask any questions about your role at this time.

The game thread can be found here - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=20888
My Top 40 Alt Songs of the Year!

"Playing in a Newbie game doesn't count" ~ PenguinPower, Feb 2019
User avatar
mcqueen
mcqueen
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
mcqueen
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3627
Joined: September 16, 2011

Post Post #873 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:31 am

Post by mcqueen »

I WAS RIGHT ABOUT THE TOWN-TOWN NEIGHBOR GROUP AFTER ALL. COME AT ME NOW, PINE.

Btw, mastin2, you did a terrible job at evaluating my push against Pine. I did so early on, but then I held my theory of a town-town neighbor group, so even when I wanted to lynch Pine, I didn't say a whole lot. Note how I never drove his case to the ground, I only drove until I crashed in Russia (
Dead QucikTopic reference
).
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley
Contact:

Post Post #874 (ISO) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:03 am

Post by mastin2 »

Pine wrote:Dammit Mastin, why do you have to throw off scumtells in LyLo >_>
Do you know how many people think they can read me but actually turn out to be really bad at it?

A lot.

Oversoul's done it, Nacho did it (until POE made him realize he was wrong), and now you've done it. If you thought that me
being careful in
lylo
was a scumtell, you obviously don't know me nearly as well as you think you do. :P Yes, I was being noncommittal, and for dang-good reason. Had I opened up the day as I originally thought I was going to (by voting you), it would have been an immediate loss rather than an eventual one. :P When I did reading, though, I had some immediate pause about TS. A few things caught my eye, and I was still thinking things through last night. Would I still have voted you? In the end, probably, yes. But I would have done so only after having done my research, checked the facts, double-checked things, check my Thoghts While Isolated as both town and scum, review things with that in mind, and make the conclusion that either you had been set up since the very beginning (mcqueen and beyond) and TS playing a strong game aside from the lurking...or that you were playing a typical Pine scumgame, and that TS was what he appeared to be, legitimate town.

Again, I did exactly what I needed to do: I opened thinking I was going after you, Pine, but rather than recklessly charging into things, I looked, thought things through, and began to second-guess my original assumptions. Exactly, y'know, what I SHOULD have been doing. Again, it likely would have led to the same result, because again, TS did play an amazingly strong game aside from lurking, but still...in what realm is me being cautious in lylo a scumtell? In Sexy Sedilla, I voted at 5 am on the day of the deadline, having pulled an all-nighter, and in the end, it was still 51/49 Zephr/Oversoul with no clear winner, without me having finished, and with the ultimate deciding factor (if memory serves) being who I'd have less shame in having lost to. What that means is that I took the whole day to decide, I was doing research, I was reading page after page, and ultimately the all-nighter, AGONIZING over the decision, showing EXTREME caution and REALLY not wanting to screw it up for the town. (Mind you, I went into that day thinking I'd be the mislynch, since I entered a 1V1 with someone who flipped town, and had been insisting strongly that I'd be willing to lynch myself if he flipped town, and was dumbfounded that Zephr and Oversoul crossvoted.)

I wasn't "attacking" both of you. I was analyzing. And I wasn't talking to either of you. I was really talking to the graveyard/myself, because again, I figured that when it came down to it, my vote would be the deciding factor one way or another. You two crossvote, I'd have the hammer. Neither of you vote, my vote either ends the game if I choose wrong, or begins the 1V1 (in which the true fighting begins, and THEN I begin talking to the confirmed town). I didn't think that the scum would make it easy on me and vote me. And as it turned out, I was right about that. (But I was wrong about my vote being the deciding factor.)

Again, if you looked at Sexy Sedilla, you'd know that I did pretty much the exact same thing there. I abandoned my QT, and was posting pretty much entirely in-thread, dumping wall after wall, going over the result of my analysis time after time, trying to get a solid idea on which way to go. Same thing was happening here. Same exact tone, same exact everything. This is just how I play lylo. You've not seen it often, because it doesn't come up often. But when I do, I know that a lot rests on my shoulders, that my actions have the weight of the entire game on them, that my decision could make the difference between a win and a loss.

Oversoul, dead QT wrote:I feel like Mastin is exhibiting knowledge that a townie shouldn't have.
AKA, I
asked the mod and
he responded to my PMs
. Any one of you could have done the same and gotten the exact same info that I got.

Also, on the modkills--Kise was seen as obv-town for so much of the game that his modkill probably actually INCREASED our chances of winning. Granted, we lost two obv-town (Andy and chkflip) from it, along with some third player I forget, but short of Kise's replacement being a complete VI and blowing his towncred, he never woulda died otherwise, meaning we would have lost a lot faster than we did.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
Locked

Return to “Completed Large Normal Games”