NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

[Shiro]

Oh and I am saying this because a while ago u said the reason was how I worded it. And how it was made in a way to pass the responsibility to others. Something u did in a much bigger deegre by abstaining to vote.

I guess the reason changed though.

[TierShift]

Shiro is accusatory

I hope that's a word.

[Slandaar]

Oh and I am saying this because a while ago u said the reason was how I worded it. And how it was made in a way to pass the responsibility to others. Something u did in a much bigger deegre by abstaining to vote.

I guess the reason changed though.

No, I just tried a different way of explaining it because clearly the other way was not understood. I would have voted Anen obviously if I needed to and as is evidenced I was around at deadline to vote if required.

Everything you have said you have said today not yesterday when the vote happened.

This is how things actually happened:

Shiro PV is town
Hrm Thor Why do you think PV wouldn't do this as scum?
I Iso'ed Anen a bunch now he is town.
Vote PV.

Why PV over Anen? no reason. No reason at all. It all goes back to passing the responsibility to Thor.

[Shiro]

Would have voted Anen =/= Did anything about him getting lynched over my Pere town read.

Also no those two are not the same. In fact they are oppisite.

If I votes pere with no reason how can the reason be to pass responsibility to Thor ?

You either though My vote was scummy cause it was without a reason
Or
You though it was scummy cause the reason behind it was to pass responsibility to Thor.

You just stated u thought both. How ?

Also I did say how and more than one person said they can see the progression. Muffin who is now confirmed town included.

[Slandaar]

If I votes pere with no reason how can the reason be to pass responsibility to Thor ?

Passing responsibility is the actual reason - you threw the responsibility toward Thor and then voted PV. It isn't the reason you provided for voting PV as you didn't provide one.

They are not mutually exclusive.

[Slandaar]

Also I did say how and more than one person said they can see the progression. Muffin who is now confirmed town included.

I can see the progression too on your Anen read. I don't see how this matters though. The progression on your PV read was?

[Slandaar]

PV is town don't like the wagon -> Thor why would PV do X as scum? Thor replies -> Shiro votes PV.

[Slandaar]

Shiro votes PV not because of Thor's reply but because Anen is town. Doesn't make any sense.

[Izariael]

I worded that badly I knew it wasn't the sole reason, still, all your scumreads voted PV. It's quite an easy way to play - accuse those who voted the mislynch.

Thor's vote being scummy is because? I shall look into the others votes later.

Thor vote is scummy for never being re-evaluated. I think that there should have been a shift in the dynamic between Thor and Peregrine after the 500-600 post mark, where it became clear that they were both pushing reads about two very distinct and different ideas. I didn't see that from Thor. I did, however, see it somewhat from Pere (though FAR FAR later than it should have been, imo... 2200). Pere was interested in pushing for Scripten lynch, but there was never enough traction to build the wagon.

Fun note: I enjoyed this fun tidbit that Thor used against Pere. I didn't think anything of it then, but it now seems incredibly a propos given how he defended himself against Muffin:

So I should add 'lying to butter up a case' to your scumtells then
You're trying to defend yourself in a pedantic manner.
It looks scummy to me.

Thor also brought meta into the PeregrineV read with 848 and 853, saying that it suggested AGAINST Town!Peregrine, despite me saying earlier in the day that I had just recently played with Town!Peregrine and was seeing similarities to his play there:

PeregrineV's sheep on my vote was unexpected and unusual, but it's kind of the only red flag I've seen from him. PeregrineV's play here seems consistent with what I've seen from Town!Peregrine, so I don't really have a scum read on his slot at this time. I think Peregrine has a tendency to appear pretty scummy as town, so my past experience with him has me trying to look past my initial misgivings of his play and look for alternative motivations that could come from town. I'm still undecided on how I feel about him, but it's definitely not a "he must be scum" feeling.

I brought up the meta thing again in my 1569 post, because it was what little I could contribute to trying to derail Pere wagon. I was having wicked-ass internet and power failures through from post 800-ish through to the end of Day 1.

[Izariael]

Shiro votes PV not because of Thor's reply but because Anen is town. Doesn't make any sense.

There were (arguably) two other wagons besides Anen with enough traction to make a lynch possible: Pere and Thor. She chose Pere. I figured this is because she kept saying the Thor wagon was horrible and because

she townread Thor more than she townread Pere

, as suggested by 2420 and 2462. It makes sense to me still in that respect when I look at it.

[Shiro]

Again more than one person can see the reason for the switch. The reason was there you just dont find it reasonable.

So again you either think the reason was BS thus the vote was weak with no reason and scummy
Or
The vote was made in a way to pass responsibility thus scummy. That in itself is a reason

Both cant mutualy exist


And there is none . I was under the impression a lynch had to happen.(since apperently I should have abstained) Pere was the one I felt more comfortable voting because after the progression on Anen read happened my town read on him was stronger.

And again how is it worse than you abstaining from voting. Saying you would have voted is empty since it never happened. You never tried to push an alternative.

[Slandaar]

The PV progression explanation did a good job of showing the issue.

Here lets do the progression side by side.

Anen -> Scum -> ISOed a bunch: town ------------------------------->
------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Anen is town so I will Vote PV
PV -> Town -> Thor why would PV do X as scum? -> Thor Replies ->

Was there a point to asking Thor the question? what is Shiro's response to Thor's reply? (there isn't one - responsibility is passed to Thor) This progression is wrong. I mean we are assuming PV is still town based on this lack of response and no mention of it so why Anen over PV? Anen being town is not a reason.

[Flubbernugget]

no one actually reads Axle walls, yaknow.

Ftfy.

iza is town. he is. thor, look elsewhere.

You're town reading him after that post you didn't read? Because it was mostly stuff that was rehashed.

[Thor665]

You refused to do so, and continue to do so.

This is what is scummy. The bolded thing. Someone asks you to prove your point, and

you ask them to prove the counter point

.

"Someone asks me to prove my point isn't scummy and I ask them to prove it's scummy first".

I don't think that's weird at all, and certainly not scummy.

Thor, scum on your wagon is probably dave.

Why Dave?

I find it dishonest of you to act like a number of name mentions qualifies the same as degree of mention.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that this is the statement that Muffin says shifts the goalposts from quantity to quality

That shifted the goalposts? (though, hey, at least you and I agree that Goodmorning was the insane one)
Okay - can you define 'degree' as you think i used it here?

Because I'm pretty sure 'degree of mention' is not longhand for 'quality' especially since I note that it is not 'number of name mentions'.

iza is town. he is. thor, look elsewhere.

Is this read for the wall/effort=town or anything else?
Because earlier he did a cop out on the case and now he's champion of the case, and I can't read the shift as easily as you apparently do.

You've clearly missed the entire point of the issue if you think

Thor's factual accuracy

is what I have issue with. Yes, his stumbling over getting his story straight led to the events at hand, but the accuracy of the statement has no bearing on his reluctance to clarify and his insistence of making others bring the harvest to him when he's sowed no seeds. Thor is a clever player. I'm sure that he will make the facts work for him regardless of his alignment, and so I don't think factual accuracy is a strong scum measure for Thor. Nor on anyone really. Being wrong doesn't make you scum. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I was scumreading him for being factually incorrect, but no. That's not what it's based on.

So I'm good enough scum to twist any fact to my favor.
That said, I'm going to avoid doing so for a long time because...I will...spend time...haha! I have wasted town's time by letting them focus on me being scum longer rather than dismissing the case asap and working a mislynch!
???

She made it perfectly clear why she voted PV over Anen. What she didn't make clear is why she voted PV over Thor.

So you're agreeing with me now that her unexplained Pere vote was weird and needed question (albeit for different reasoning) or are you just randmly attacking my name in a generic sense?

I worded that badly I knew it wasn't the sole reason, still, all your scumreads voted PV. It's quite an easy way to play - accuse those who voted the mislynch.

I actually find that perfectly acceptable and normal Day 2 play. You don't?

[Flubbernugget]

The real question is why the fonz is defending all of Thor's derp.

OH HAI disguised OMGUS.

It's because the case on Thor looks exactly like cases on me when I'm town.

I didn't realize I was voting for you.

[Flubbernugget]

Maybe Fonz is buddying Thor because he borrowed Thor's goalposts.

[Shiro]

Again you are providing reason behind the vote.

You stated the vote was with no reason.

And again How is it worse from u abstaining to vote or attempting to push any other lynch to protect pere.

You say I am scum for voting while passing responsibility to Thor.
You abstained and passed responsibility for the lynch to others.

So by your logic are u scum ?

[davesaz]

Oh and I am saying this because a while ago u said the reason was how I worded it. And how it was made in a way to pass the responsibility to others. Something u did in a much bigger deegre by abstaining to vote.

I guess the reason changed though.

No, I just tried a different way of explaining it because clearly the other way was not understood. I would have voted Anen obviously if I needed to and as is evidenced I was around at deadline to vote if required.

Everything you have said you have said today not yesterday when the vote happened.

This is how things actually happened:

Shiro PV is town
Hrm Thor Why do you think PV wouldn't do this as scum?
I Iso'ed Anen a bunch now he is town.
Vote PV.

Why PV over Anen? no reason. No reason at all. It all goes back to passing the responsibility to Thor.

The usual reason that town vote a wagon is

needing to avoid a no-lynch

. Because the situations where no-lynch helps town are slim to none. Town often vote a less scummy player in order to avoid a no-lynch. For this reason, I do not use "strength of read" as the determining factor in interpreting someone else's vote, especially early game.

Note: I have not looked at whether "avoid no-lynch" is the reason in this case. I have not looked at placement. If someone feels these factors are actually relevant (cough Thor cough Slandaar cough) then

provide the evidence yourself

.

[Thor665]

I have not looked at whether "avoid no-lynch" is the reason in this case. I have not looked at placement. If someone feels these factors are actually relevant (cough Thor cough Slandaar cough) then provide the evidence yourself.

Read the game - Shiro later clarified that the vote was made to 'avoid no lynch' but did not do so initially.
Why are you even asking this?

[davesaz]

That said, I'm going to avoid doing so for a long time because...I will...spend time...haha! I have wasted town's time by letting them focus on me being scum longer rather than dismissing the case asap and working a mislynch!
???

If you have the oft-stated "I'm Thor and nobody is going to lynch me haha" attitude, then doing this as scum looks pretty realistic to me. It is far easier to bait people into attacking you so you can twist their words to discredit them, or break the communication path by shifting your stance, than it is to manufacture a case which doesn't match the evidence.

Pedit: It is not unusual for town to avoid saying at the time that they are only voting to avoid a no-lynch. Precisely because the scum can latch onto that kind of statement to press a bogus case for a mislynch.

[Thor665]

If you have the oft-stated "I'm Thor and nobody is going to lynch me haha" attitude, then doing this as scum looks pretty realistic to me. It is far easier to bait people into attacking you so you can twist their words to discredit them, or break the communication path by shifting your stance, than it is to manufacture a case which doesn't match the evidence.

That's not legit though - all I am asking from them is to state their issue. When I am attacked for something that i cannot conceive of as scummy my first instinct isn't 'well let me explain that for you a whole bunch' my first instinct is 'why do you find this scummy?'

Like, say I attacked you for your use of 'oft-stated' and was like, ha! He used oft-stated! Total scum move, why would you even do that!
Now, I suppose your first instinct *could* be - well, allow me to explain why 'oft-stated' is in my vocabulary and why I use it.
But I know I, and probably some others, would tend to respond with 'how is that at all scummy?'
And if the reply was 'defend your use of it, I don't need to explain!' we would not decide that we should bend first.

Pedit: It is not unusual for town to avoid saying at the time that they are only voting to avoid a no-lynch. Precisely because the scum can latch onto that kind of statement to press a bogus case for a mislynch.

[davesaz]

I have not looked at whether "avoid no-lynch" is the reason in this case. I have not looked at placement. If someone feels these factors are actually relevant (cough Thor cough Slandaar cough) then provide the evidence yourself.

Read the game - Shiro later clarified that the vote was made to 'avoid no lynch' but did not do so initially.
Why are you even asking this?

I don't think I was asking anything. I was stating that I have not looked and do not plan to. If someone wants to prove a case, then prove it. With quotes and stuff, not with "read the thread" or "prove I'm wrong".

If I later have reason to think Shiro is scum, then I'll do the work to prove my case, but I don't see the need to disprove someone else's case on a 3rd party.

P-edit. Simplified example: You make a case. I say I don't understand, please provide your evidence. You say you don't understand why I don't understand. That's scummy -- town would provide the evidence right there. I go ahead and explain what I don't understand. You attack the reason I don't understand instead of explaining what you mean. That's even more scummy. And this goes on for days.

[Thor665]

@Dave - like, here's my conversation with Muffin as I perceived it at the time;

1. I state I find Shiro scummy for the vote switch between Pere and Anen considering how much he talked about each.
2. Muffin asks me to defend that stance.
3. I ask him to look at the posts and tell me if he feels it was a legit switch.
4. He says he counted the number of times each name was mentioned and Pere was mentioned more - and apparently didn't care that, blatantly, there was more Anen conversation than Pere conversation.
5. He then asks me to defend my stance again.
6. At this point he has looked at the posts (by his own admission) and chosen to use an odd metric (number of times a name was mentioned) instead of "oh - look, he posted a whole lot about Anen and almost nothing about Pere" which is the actual situation.
7. I point out that I find his metric dumb.
8. He responds by posting all the comments and noting the size of the posts - that said he is including in the Pere quotes huge sections not discussing Pere, which make them appear larger.
9. At this point I am starting to believe he isn't reading anything and is attacking me weirdly.
10. I point out that the post size compare he did is not legit due to the padding.
11. He claims I am moving the goalposts to quality and again is demanding that I back up my case.
12. I claim I never moved the goalposts and ask him how he came to the conclusion I did.
13. He claims I am moving the goalposts to quality and again is demanding that I back up my case.
14. Other people agree with him.
15. I point out what is obvious if you read the posts - that Shiro talked about Anen far more than Pere and did an unexplained vote move.
16. Everyone claims that my delay in pointing out something that is obvious to anyone who reads the posts is scummy and that muffin's name count thing was somehow a legit reaction because saying "amount they were discussed" is somehow a vague statement that apparently can mean "amount a given word appears in an Iso as opposed to amount of words spent on a given subject"

And here we are.
Where do you think my above narrative differs from reality?.

[Flubbernugget]

/confirm as town 3-shot reviver

Let's hope for a good time!

Thor, scum on your wagon is probably dave.

Flubber, you've been pushing for dave all this time, haven't you? Can you maybe give me a rundown on why you think he's scum?

His votes are consistently shit.

He was also providing analysis in a way that allowed him to stay under the radar and not directly talk to him.

That being said his most recent posts are generating dicussion so he does get a few town points there. So we'll see where his more recent interactions take him.

[Flubbernugget]

Just reminding everyone that I totally wasn't stalking Tier's ISO and now is the perfect time to realize he hasn't revived anyone and needs to be LaL'd.