NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER


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Post Post #1175 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:43 am

Post by TierShift »

In post 1033, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1029, Muffin wrote:
In post 1022, Thor665 wrote:Muffin - Not fond of hard Thor defense. Call it mildly mild on the scum side.

Don't misconstrue things please.

Attacking a really weak case on someone does not equate to "hard defending" that player.

You can consider yourself an ally of convenience if you like.

Nah. I'll agree Goodmorning's play is weaksauce, but you're attacking her logic here. There is nothing inherently scummy in having gut reads - town do it all the time, and you have not shown that Goodmorning wouldn't or doesn't do that.
You're thumping on her really aggressively for what is play that is easily either suck town or kinda weak scum, and it's your big push.

Now, maybe you're trying to read her, and that's your deal, but it does come off as weirdly defensive towards me, which makes me feel the potential of buddying and I think that leaves you deserving of a call out.
Heck, take me out of the equation and 'oddly aggressive attack on gut read' becomes your play and that's worth a narrowed set of eyes all by itself.
I do not disagree that Goodmorning is being bad - she assuredly is, and she's even playing it up like she has a plan (and well she might, but I bet it's pretty weaksauce once we see it and won't justify the lackluster play). That said - the level of your attack on it is not in proper relation to the level of her crime. So it's weird, and I find you scummy for it.

Explain this. He was pushing gm for a real reason for the scumread on you, remarking he didn't find gut/tone strong enough 35 pages in. That's not discrediting, nor is it buddying you. Explain how it is buddying.
This reeks of bullshit.
In post 1059, T S O wrote:If you want a way to alleviate my boredom, how about a nice QUICKWAGON on Aneninen!

I don't think he's scum tbh. He looks like a newb being genuinely annoyed. His reads and remarks are weird as fuck but not really scummy. looks like a designated mislynch.
In post 1063, Nero Cain wrote:I'm asking you a very simple question Thor. I see no reason why you are acting out.

hey I agree
In post 1069, Egg wrote:
In post 739, davesaz wrote:Scum will have knowledge of all neighborhoods they have a member in. Town does not have general neighborhood knowledge, unless we reveal the neighborhoods before any of us are eliminated. The only knowledge that scum* gain from reveals is any neighborhoods they don't have members in. It doesn't seem to help scum.

Things which reduce the gap between what scum know and what town know is good for town.

(*) Scum and other factions <if any>


^this kind of looks like being too careful not to slip knowledge of how many factions there are.

agreed.
In post 1072, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1064, Thor665 wrote:And I told you I was buddying you - so you should react to that or not.

vote:Thor

:D
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Post Post #1176 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:45 am

Post by TierShift »

In post 1081, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1073, T S O wrote:

Axle wrote:
Its RVS, making up bullshit is fun?

WHy is it scummy?


It's not scummy?
I just disagree with it. That was why I SAID that I didn't agree with anything Aneninen had said.


So why are you pissing my time down the drain, and not even trying to answer the actual question?

In post 1074, T S O wrote:Don't get me wrong, though, he's done plenty of scummy shit.


I aksed you too.
AXLE:
" I will expect you to show me the stuff that you saw back then that is so bad(disgreed with) (
not just that it is unarguably bad
)
but that you conclude for it to be that bad Aneninen must be or is quite likely to be scum, because as town he would not be that bad."


VOTE: TSO
While I am still willing to lynch Scripten today, and for counter wagon (size) purposes consider me on that wagon
However right at this moment I have new more important wagon that i would prefer over take the Scripten wagon...

Stop pissing in my pocket.

I asked you a question, "show me the stuff, to bad to be towny hence must be scummy?"
Then
You showed it to me and claimed it was too bad to be town.

Now you claim its not that at all, you just disagree with it.

Are you even playing mafia?

I tend to agree with your post, but I do not see what the vote is for.
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Post Post #1177 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:51 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1168, Nero Cain wrote:@tiershift-if boon claimed what would you learn?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1178 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:52 am

Post by TierShift »

oh the explanation comes the following post
In post 1082, AxleGreaser wrote:TLDR:
basically i think TSO is lying, and scum because of that.
he has no scum read on Aneninen, especially not one based on actually reading the thread.
He was asked to show me posts that were so bad they cant come from a town Anenenen
he did
no he claims he didnt.

If nothing else LAL.

He did claim reasons for scumread earlier, so this is basically moot. He just didn't readily reprovide them.
In post 1105, Scripten wrote:
In post 1093, Egg wrote:Scripten, why do you think knowing neighborhoods will be more useful later than now?


I can't give you any real specifics. I've never played with neighborhoods before. However, more information for town is usually a good thing. I also can't see the reveal being particularly anti-town, either. Unless scum get their own neighborhood (which seems like it'd be a little game breaking), they'll probably tell their team all about the composition of their individual hoods, anyway. While this may not cover every hood in the game, it would still be more information than town will have.

Current Events

Thor v. Nero Cain looks weird. I'm not sure I'm following what Thor was doing where he told Nero that he was buddying him, and I'm not sure why Nero took what Thor said as reason to vote him. (Yes, I realize that buddying is a scum tactic. I don't think it follows that claiming to be buddying someone is also a scum tactic.)

Axle's posts are really hard to read. Like.... super hard to understand. I don't think this is a scumtell, but it's definitely an annoying trait for any alignment. TSO doesn't read as scum to me, though I don't think his push on Aneninen is strong enough to justify a counter-wagon.

Another empty post by scripten. This happens too often. I've played with town-him before, in which he very clearly stated opinions, took sides and was very proactive.
In post 1108, Egg wrote:
I once played a hard boiled setup and told the mod that the thread title was offensive.

So you went to a chamber to cry?

In post 838, TierShift wrote:
In post 831, Thor665 wrote:My Neighborhood is me, Pere, and Egg.

Shit. I found egg slipping knowledge of the neighbourhood in , which is why I posted . There defnitely hadn't been enough info to conclude you were in a neighbourhood, so I hoped egg wasn't in your neighbourhood and scumslipped.


That was a crumb, not a slip. Same with another post or two before that where I mentioned both Thor and Pere together.

Well, it would have been a slip if you hadn't been in a neighbourhood with them.
In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:At p20. Two things.

Csareo was scumhunting derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

please enlighten me.
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Post Post #1179 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:01 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1105, Scripten wrote:Thor v. Nero Cain looks weird. I'm not sure I'm following what Thor was doing where he told Nero that he was buddying him, and I'm not sure why Nero took what Thor said as reason to vote him. (Yes, I realize that buddying is a scum tactic. I don't think it follows that claiming to be buddying someone is also a scum tactic.)

Well, I don't really see a reason that Thor would not elaborate on why I'm townish. Explain the town motivation there?

In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:Vote: PeregrineV because holy shit was #385 bad.

What about it was bad?

all caught up.

dislike tier's asking boon to claim.
dislike gamr for similar reason. His "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly. Scum already know if its mb or not.
still dislike the toby slot. Her claim that I was being "iffy" on my Csaro read and was scummy for that while being iffy herself is highly hypocritical. I also dislike fon'z "catchup" post being a bandwagon hop onto PV.
hephaestus, dave and muffin are my other scum reads.
maaayyyybbbeeee Thor. I'm pretty unsure on him.
maaayyybbbe scripten

Thor; give me a TL:DR on your PV case.

I'd also help you guys pl TSO. *hint hint*
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1180 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:12 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1107, Thor665 wrote:Which part confuses you? I've explained it to others and had them agree what you did was scummy - so clearly the basic explanation exists and is cohesive. So where does it lose you?


Give it to me so that a 6-year old can understand it.
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Post Post #1181 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:15 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1107, Thor665 wrote:It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.

Why is it scummy again?


It did suggest inside knowledge. You didn't "willing to bet there is an SK" or anything of the sort. You used vocabulary that indicated one thing, and are now arguing that you meant something else. Was there an SK mention in your Nero conversation that I missed?
No?
Then why should I "know" that you meant that and not the mafiascum definition of multiball.

That is why the original statement is scummy, and you trying to act like I'm the idiot is also scummy.
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Post Post #1182 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:25 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1107, Thor665 wrote:How about this - why don't you explain what my town response should have been to Nero after he commented that his clearing made sense as long as it wasn't multiball (which, incidentally, also shows he was using multiball to reference SKs). What was my town response supposed to be if I thought that it wasn't certain we lacked multiscum or SK? Or, explain why, as town, I should ave been convinced that there was no reason to consider this in scumhunting? Or show why it's scummy if I choose to do so? Or...y'know, anything, besides the empty stuff you have said.


Nero was using multiball to refernce SKs?
()
Nero:
baring multiball, I'd know his alignment and thus would have no need to be wishy washy.

How would Nero the SK know anyone's alignment?
Sounds like he means multiple scum teams, where scumteam A would have to search for scumteam B.

As for what your response should have been? Whatever you want.

The short is, if you suspect Nero, then you suspect him, and say why he is scummy.
If you think he is not scummy, then you accept his premise for now. Say so or not.
If you think he is null, you could say nothing, or explain that should the game be multi-ball, then you will get back to him (kind of like I did).

Saying
In post 261, Thor665 wrote:Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption
gets a "If this game turns out to be multi-ball, Thor should get a closer look." from me.

And earns me 7 or 8 votes. :lol:
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Post Post #1183 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:28 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1108, Egg wrote:Pere looks like a scum fuck to me.


Well, you frankly haven't done a drop of scumhunting, so you'll understand if I assign your opinion it's due consideration. Image
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Post Post #1184 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:43 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 1166, TierShift wrote:Pere, where you not caught up at the point of making the readslist?


I was caught up when I made the readslist. The only thing added that was not on the readslist () was increased suspicion of Scripten while I was making the reads list because his vote caused such a backlash yet no one could explain why he was town().
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Post Post #1185 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:49 am

Post by TierShift »

In post 1177, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1168, Nero Cain wrote:@tiershift-if boon claimed what would you learn?

Oh, missed this.

I just HATE softclaiming that serves no purpose.

There are three options:
1. Softclaiming (or fullclaiming) does not hurt town, or the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. In this case, you can do something useful with your (soft)claim, such as semi-confirm multiball. In that case, explain to others why your role confirms that. If you can't do that without fullclaiming, fullclaim.
2. Softclaiming (or fullclaiming) does hurt town, or the drawbacks outweigh the benefits. But your role does prove something. In this case, shut your fucking mouth.
3. Your role doesn't prove a fucking thing. You should shut up.

Boon made me think option #1 was the case. He made me think his role confirmed multiball to him and that sharing would confirm it to others.

As you see, none of the options include softclaiming, not convincing town, and then shutting up about it. So I pushed boonskiies to complete #1.

Then he backpedaled and said it was #3.

Not conforming to the 3 options (as in super softclaiming and not doing anything else) is scummy as fuck.
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Post Post #1186 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:50 am

Post by Nero Cain »

Thor thinks I'm an sk but calls me townish? the fuck.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1187 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:51 am

Post by TierShift »

In post 1184, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1166, TierShift wrote:Pere, where you not caught up at the point of making the readslist?


I was caught up when I made the readslist. The only thing added that was not on the readslist () was increased suspicion of Scripten while I was making the reads list because his vote caused such a backlash yet no one could explain why he was town().

Okay, then I'm interested in thor's explanation to his assertion that you were not caught up.
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Post Post #1188 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:52 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote:
Well, I don't really see a reason that Thor would not elaborate on why I'm townish. Explain the town motivation there?


I think he was going for a reaction test. Like I said, I'm not wholly following what Thor has been doing.

In post 1179, Nero Cain wrote:
dislike gamr for similar reason. His "If it is multiball all you had to do was wait one day and you could of keeped it hidden from scum." is p silly.
Scum already know if its mb or not.



How do you know this? (Bolded)

In post 1178, TierShift wrote:
Another empty post by scripten. This happens too often. I've played with town-him before, in which he very clearly stated opinions, took sides and was very proactive.


I can't really deny that I haven't been as proactive as I usually am. The large game isn't giving me the same level of reads that I can normally get, and engaging every single player is a lot more difficult. I do plan on talking directly to more players now that I have more time.

In post 1178, TierShift wrote:
In post 1119, The Fonz wrote:At p20. Two things.

Csareo was
scumhunting
derpily. One of those last two words is alignment relevant.

please enlighten me.


Bolded. Not necessarily in agreement, though.
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Post Post #1189 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:56 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1188, Scripten wrote:How do you know this? (Bolded)

I don't know this 'cause I'm not scum but scum already know the size of their team so they'd have to be pretty big idiots to not know.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1190 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:57 am

Post by Egg »

In post 1174, Nero Cain wrote:Do you think Gamr is town?


As of right now, yes.
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Post Post #1191 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:10 am

Post by TierShift »

In post 1144, T S O wrote:If anyone wants to talk about why Aneninen is scum, I'm open to that.

Yeah. Go ahead. Don't use 'I disagree with that' or 'I can't believe a twon player to be this bad'. I'll be happy to evaluate your other arguments.
In post 1156, T S O wrote:Aneninen, your vote is shit with no reasoning. You're still fucking scum and whether or not I get magically lynched on this derpwagon, you're going to get hung eventually. Don't worry about that.

In post 1157, T S O wrote:Axle, you literally make. no. goddamn. sense. and I'm not wasting my time trying to talk to you. I do not care what you think of me - stop talking to me. This will just prevent the big blow-up I'll eventually have where I rant about how shitty and irrational your play is.

Stop. You're no better than anyone here. Keep that in mind.
In post 1159, T S O wrote:Do I really have to make a wall detailing why he's wrong? Do I? Raging is so much easier than that and it makes me feel better to boot.

Also, I cannot even read his posts or my eyes burn - making a wallpost about him is like mutilating yourself while learning a language or something.

In post 1160, T S O wrote:Actually, you know what - it's the weekend, I don't have a huge amount on.

Give me two days.

Don't.

All this doesn't make anyone want to lynch anen more.
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Post Post #1192 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:21 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1185, TierShift wrote:I just HATE softclaiming that serves no purpose.

*shrugz*

I agree that soft claiming for the sake of soft claiming is p bad but I also don't think having him full claim helps the town in anyway.

I also think he'd be much less likely to do that as scum.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1193 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:22 am

Post by TierShift »

I've seen scum softclaim, not getting confronted, and getting advantages out of it before.
Granted, I don't think boonskiies could pull that off.
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Post Post #1194 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:24 am

Post by Nero Cain »

So....if you don't think he could pull that off why ask him to fullclaim?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1195 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:28 am

Post by TierShift »

because I was working under assumption #1
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Post Post #1196 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:33 am

Post by Nero Cain »

So the timeline is:

-thinks Boon is scum, softclaiming
-asks him to fullclaim
-decides that Boon couldn't pull that off as scum

???
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1197 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:36 am

Post by TierShift »

well, that too.

I just find softclaiming a scummy atrocity.

So in some ways, asking for a fullclaim after a softclaim is apolicy of mine, regardless of how highly I regard said player.
Now that I think of it, there possibly could be daytalk, completely eliminating player skill from this.
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Post Post #1198 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:38 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In what other games have you used this policy?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1199 (ISO) » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:41 am

Post by TierShift »

I have not called it a policy, but I'm pretty sure I've pushed for a fullclaim with a lousy softclaim at least once and probably only once before. No idea where. At all. It was quite recent, though.
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