Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[liamcool]

Look, random voting is an essential part of the game and I'm going to doubt anyone's mafia playing ability who doesn't realize it. It gets discussion going and then someone says something and it gets analyzed and then someone says something else and it get's analyzed. Like now, egruntz said "hey, guys we should no lynch" everyone reacted and now The Fonz said "he is a newbie so don't pay attention" These are two of the more important pieces of evidence right now(in my opinion) and both have happened due to the random voting phase, so quit your bitching, kthnx.

Second, I hate all this random lynch talk. We are not randomly lynching anyone. We are gonna decide via deliberation and democracy, thusly forcing people to make a decision. Discussion is good. Interaction between players mean things; Making it ignorant and irresponible to end day immediately with a random or No lynch. And if it was random, I'd much rather roll an 18 sided dice and lynch the player that's number comes up. That has much more of a chance a causing interaction between players then just saying okay guys, vote no lynch. Besides no lynch can't even defend himself.

Anyway, back to important things,

Vote: The fonz

You wrote off a newbie that obviously wasn't even a newbie and then you voted someone for attacking the guy's idea, which was obviously terrible.

P.S Thinking someone is scum is not the only reason to vote for someone, don't be so naive

P.S.S I think Fonz is scum

The first PS is totally right, we might throw a vote on someone to make them have to think under pressure, although a singular vote in this game isn't really a threat at this point.

[PJ.]

You had nothing else to say about that post. I'm not posting content for the rest of the game.

[Elias_the_thief]

The Third Official Flavorless Votecount:

Snaps the pirate - 3

(Thedragonsprincess, liamcool, Disciple Slayer)

The Fonz - 3

(Sangy, OhGodMyLife, panzerjager)

OhGodMyLife - 1

(Xylthixlm)

egruntz - 1

(Bookitty)

MariucciFamily - 1

(Mills)

Bookitty - 1

(the fonz)

With 18 alive, it will take 10 to lynch.

[egruntz]

Look, random voting is an essential part of the game and I'm going to doubt anyone's mafia playing ability who doesn't realize it. It gets discussion going and then someone says something and it gets analyzed and then someone says something else and it get's analyzed. Like now, egruntz said "hey, guys we should no lynch" everyone reacted and now The Fonz said "he is a newbie so don't pay attention" These are two of the more important pieces of evidence right now(in my opinion) and both have happened due to the random voting phase, so quit your bitching, kthnx.

Second, I hate all this random lynch talk. We are not randomly lynching anyone. We are gonna decide via deliberation and democracy, thusly forcing people to make a decision. Discussion is good. Interaction between players mean things; Making it ignorant and irresponible to end day immediately with a random or No lynch. And if it was random, I'd much rather roll an 18 sided dice and lynch the player that's number comes up. That has much more of a chance a causing interaction between players then just saying okay guys, vote no lynch. Besides no lynch can't even defend himself.

Anyway, back to important things,

Vote: The fonz

You wrote off a newbie that obviously wasn't even a newbie and then you voted someone for attacking the guy's idea, which was obviously terrible.

P.S Thinking someone is scum is not the only reason to vote for someone, don't be so naive

P.S.S I think Fonz is scum

Surely. To vote and cause lynching for one just based on opinion of their character is just as "naive". Sure random voting helps stir up discussion, but otherwise I see no use for it, and personally think it's not needed.

First gather information,

then

vote or lay a FOS on someone.
That's how I'd do it.

P.S.
Isn't it Post-Post-Script (P.P.S.) after the first Post-Script?

[liamcool]

You had nothing else to say about that post. I'm not posting content for the rest of the game.

Jaysus, go jump off a cliff, talk about overreacting.

And no, I don't have anything else to say now. A lot of my posts are stream of consciousness, "post the first point that comes to your head" style.

[Mills]

I'm not sure whether to vote for Disciple Slayer for saying something I found completely ridiculous in an earlier game (ie. he's either scum which is bad for us or he's a liability in general as town which is bad for us) or to vote for Dark Ermac for saying

"Consider it this way.In any mafia game where the mafia aren't retarded, there's going to be a townie lynched on the first day. We might as well random vote rather than not vote at all."

which suggests that he is happy with a completely random lynching on Day One (ie. he's either scum which is bad for us or he's a liability in general as town which is bad for us).

Oh, the great quandaries of Mafia!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I be most likely ta be voting for disciple slayer this round.

He has been lurking and bandwagoning. Both very common mafia tells. He has not contributed to the discustion at all. He has two posts in this thread, both are bandwagon votes with no statement. Of course, this early in the game you could make the argument that he was just casting out some random votes to get discussion going. However, other than a few bandwagon votes, he has done nothing else to further discussion. Now that the game has started in ernest, it is time for him to start sharing his thoughts. There is no reason for an innocent to lurk.

[Disciple Slayer]

UNVOTE

VOTE: THE FONZ

More bandwagoning. Reasons to be given after Christmas.

[The Fonz]

Look, random voting is an essential part of the game and I'm going to doubt anyone's mafia playing ability who doesn't realize it.

Hi. I'm the Fonz. I believe random voting to be stupid and pointless. Pleased to meet you.

Like now, egruntz said "hey, guys we should no lynch" everyone reacted and now The Fonz said "he is a newbie so don't pay attention" These are two of the more important pieces of evidence right now(in my opinion) and both have happened due to the random voting phase, so quit your bitching, kthnx.

Jumping on a newbie simply for being a newbie is scummy. Do you disagree?

Anyway, back to important things,

Vote: The fonz

You wrote off a newbie that obviously wasn't even a newbie and then you voted someone for attacking the guy's idea, which was obviously terrible.

How was he 'not even a newbie?' He suggested a day one no-lynch. THAT'S, LIKE, THE VIRTUAL DEFINITION OF NEWBIE. Pretty much the first thing you learn in newbie games is why we don't no-lynch d1. If you don't know that, you're clearly a newbie.

Kitty, you're an experienced enough player. You must have noticed the 'townsperson' underneath his name, right?

Surely. Do you think that the only use of a vote is to cause someone to be lynched?

Surely. Do you think the best way to explain how mafia works around here to a n00b is to vote them? Or were you hoping to provoke a newbie meltdown? You know better than that.

Unvote, Vote: The Fonz

Fonz, surely you noticed that though it says townsperson under his name, he's talking like, and now told us, that he's played a lot on other sites. That was a pretty shaky reason to go after Bookitty.

And that matters how? He's new to the site, he's making all the classic newb mistakes which everyone knows aren't scumtells, BooKitty jumped on that.

[Bookitty]

@The Fonz:

As you may have noticed, there's an entire section of this site devoted to newbie games. If you play in a regular game, you take your chances just like everyone else, in my opinion. I am happy to try to teach people, but I'm not patronising new players and condescendingly changing my playstyle and attitudes in order to shelter them from real play when they feel ready to play in a non-newbie game. It's fine if you choose to do so, but both of you are making the classic newbie mistake of overreacting to one vote as if it were the end of the world, and I'm guessing you don't regard yourself as a newbie, Fonz.

In addition, if the only reason for a vote, in your view, is to cause someone to be lynched, that's a pretty odd belief in itself. I don't agree at all, and I doubt many players who engage in scumhunting tactics would agree either.

Egruntz is not the only person with "Townsperson" under his name in this game. He is, however, the only person who came into the game and began sharply criticising other players for engaging in an activity he doesn't like or approve of, while at the same time arguing for a no-lynch, which might be a newbie mistake, as you say. By your logic, I should not have engaged him at all on this topic, for fear of provoking a "newbie meltdown", whatever that is. He didn't seem uncertain, or unsure of himself, and he deserved to be addressed on that level. Your protective attitude toward him doesn't seem to be justified, considering that he seems quite able to make articulate arguments on his own behalf.

By extension, your argument indicates that if someone engages a "Townsperson" in argument and votes for them for making something you consider a newbie mistake (and egruntz clearly still does not view his argument for no-lynch as a mistake, since he is still arguing for it), that you will view this as scummy. I don't agree with this, though obviously that's your right. Most, possibly all (some are lurking a bit still) of the players in this game (including egruntz) have demonstrated the ability to play Mafia well enough that I don't see any need to condescend to them or change my playstyle to accommodate them. It seems a little high-handed that you feel that thjs would be necessary.

[Xylthixlm]

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of

our own people

. If we skip the first round and only lose one of

the town

instead of two, then we can keep

the town

living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect

the town.

Someone is trying too hard to appear protown.

Unvote, Vote liamcool

[The Fonz]

@The Fonz:

As you may have noticed, there's an entire section of this site devoted to newbie games. If you play in a regular game, you take your chances just like everyone else, in my opinion. I am happy to try to teach people, but I'm not patronising new players and condescendingly changing my playstyle and attitudes in order to shelter them from real play when they feel ready to play in a non-newbie game. It's fine if you choose to do so, but both of you are making the classic newbie mistake of overreacting to one vote as if it were the end of the world, and I'm guessing you don't regard yourself as a newbie, Fonz.

How Iam

I

overreacting? I placed one vote, same as you did. Is it your position that people should NOT vote when they find something scummy?

In addition, if the only reason for a vote, in your view, is to cause someone to be lynched, that's a pretty odd belief in itself. I don't agree at all, and I doubt many players who engage in scumhunting tactics would agree either.

Don't you dare try to lecture me. That's the classic strawman. You attribute to me a position I have never once advocated, (that the only reason to vote is to cause a lynch) and indeed you still feel it necessary to appeal to authority to knock down the strawman.

Egruntz is not the only person with "Townsperson" under his name in this game.

Yes, but he's the one you've opportunistically jumped upon. You're attacking a newb for dropping newb tells. That's scummy.

He is, however, the only person who came into the game and began sharply criticising other players for engaging in an activity he doesn't like or approve of, while at the same time arguing for a no-lynch, which might be a newbie mistake, as you say.

Yes, and his posts reek of newbie-not-really-understanding-what's-going- on. Not scum.

By your logic, I should not have engaged him at all on this topic, for fear of provoking a "newbie meltdown", whatever that is. He didn't seem uncertain, or unsure of himself, and he deserved to be addressed on that level. Your protective attitude toward him doesn't seem to be justified, considering that he seems quite able to make articulate arguments on his own behalf.

Well, certainly, I feel like the default setting for

pro-town

vets encountering such behaviour is explanation of how the day works, why people random vote, and so on, rather than attack.

By extension, your argument indicates that if someone engages a "Townsperson" in argument and votes for them for making something you consider a newbie mistake (and egruntz clearly still does not view his argument for no-lynch as a mistake, since he is still arguing for it),

Of course he's still arguing it, BECAUSE NO-ONE HAS EXPLAINED why it is pretty much universally considered a bad idea to no-lynch day one, and all the kind of things we take for granted as being obvious round here which he obviously hasn't encountered playing elsewhere (see: considering D1 no-lynches to somehow be the norm).

I've seen far too many D1s end in exactly that kind of 'newbie meltdown' because a hurt, confused newbie ends up lashing out, not understanding why it is everyone jumped on them for (from their perspective) no reason in the first place, then having more people piling on due to an 'OMGUS' reaction, and so on. And then some vet goes 'oh, in retrospect, we should have spotted the 'townsperson' tag and gone into 'talk to the n00b' mode. Woops.'

@ Egruntz: the reason that day one no-lynches are considered bad by everyone round here is that the lynch is the one kill that is under town's control [well, excepting potential vigs], and provides us with evidence in the form of a voting record and people's comments to go with later.

You may well argue that a lynch based on very little information is more likely to hit town than scum, and you'd be right. But a scum nightkill is CERTAIN to hit town rather than scum, so lynching is the only way for town to win. Not to mention that one dead scum does more harm to the mafia than one dead townie does to the protown side.

In addition, if a town player is lynched, you can then look back at the record: who appeared to genuinely convinced of the lynchee's scumminess, who appeared to hide behind someone else's argument, who defended him, and so on. You have genuine information to go on.

No-lynch, and you're in the exact same uninformed position you start the game in, with one more town player dead. Hence, it is always in the town's interests to lynch day one.

[Bookitty]

I stated this:

In addition, if the only reason for a vote, in your view, is to cause someone to be lynched, that's a pretty odd belief in itself. I don't agree at all, and I doubt many players who engage in scumhunting tactics would agree either.

In response to this:

Surely. Do you think that the only use of a vote is to cause someone to be lynched?

Surely.

And you respond like this:

Don't you dare try to lecture me. That's the classic strawman. You attribute to me a position I have never once advocated, (that the only reason to vote is to cause a lynch) and indeed you still feel it necessary to appeal to authority to knock down the strawman.

You said it, therefore it's not a straw man. I didn't make it up. You said, in your own post, in direct response to what I said, "Surely."

Is there some other meaning of surely I've missed out on somewhere?

And I wouldn't dream of trying to lecture anyone. I get that you've claimed this role, and I wouldn't try to take it away from you.

[curiouskarmadog]

Back from the holidays..updating games…

What the hell is going on? Wonderful way to start off the game, guys!

I, personally, find the first day to be completely useless. It's happened many times: tons of discussion, just to get back where we started, and in the end we all just vote for no lynching.

On the first day, I think it'd be best to not lynch at all. If we just take out a random guess, we could end up hurting ourselves in the process.

I'm not voting for it just yet, to see if any discussion can be born from this; but seriously, stop voting randomly for idiotic reasons.

Wow, what a scummy first post. I for one am not going to be voting for a no lynch. I think this post can be excused because he is a “townsperson” but interested in seeing what develops from this one.

I've always found it better to have no lynching occur on the first day. As I've said, it there's been plenty occasions where the first day would occur for weeks, and nothing gets accomplished. You really don't get much information about each other from the start as it is, and that's what makes the beginning of this game slow and rather dull.

@Bookitty
You're the one rushing to conclusions. I've said one thing so far, a common one at that, and you've already gone and voted for me. There's nothing scummy about my post, heck I didn't even except anyone to lay a FOS on me because of it.

However, I'm still all for no lynching.

There is a ton of information on Day 1...you might not use it until later Days..the fact that you want to give the mafia a free shot at us screams scum or maybe just new. So what happens if we all vote no lynch right now? The day ends, mafia gets a kill, then Day 2 starts with little information we are in the same position as Day 1, but less someone.

Quit pushing bad play.

Unvote, Vote: The Fonz

Fonz, surely you noticed that though it says townsperson under his name, he's talking like, and now told us, that he's played a lot on other sites. That was a pretty shaky reason to go after Bookitty.

QFT

Well, obviously you think I'm scum, since you voted for me. If not, then what a poor reason to vote for someone. All that I've said is that it'd be best to skip the lynch for the first day. Surely you shouldn't vote for me, just for stating my opinions?

That right there shows horrible quality in a mafia player.

so you think she is a bad mafia player for voting for you for "poor" reasons, yet you have not attacked anyone who is voting just to band wagon...comments?

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of

our own people

. If we skip the first round and only lose one of

the town

instead of two, then we can keep

the town

living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect

the town.

Someone is trying too hard to appear protown.

Unvote, Vote liamcool

wow did catch this the first time I read it….lol

I agree here,

vote liamcool

However,

FoS Fonz

for reasons already stated

Egruntz, how do you purpose we “gather” information day 1 with out random votes or even an FoS? Also, please provide topics that can be discussed that do not involve vote conversation. I dont care if states he has played on other sites, he is demostrating poor logic. Does that mean scum?...have to wait and see. I am interested to hear his responses.

[egruntz]

Erhm, exactly my point. If we choose to lynch someone randomly, with the odds of 3-4/18 being mafia, there's a pretty good chance that we'll lynch one of

our own people

. If we skip the first round and only lose one of

the town

instead of two, then we can keep

the town

living longer.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vote or lynch randomly. It'll most likely effect

the town.

Someone is trying too hard to appear protown.

Unvote, Vote liamcool

No, I'm the one that said that, not liam.

[Bookitty]

No, I'm the one that said that, not liam.

Hmmm. I don't see a reason why scum would point this out, especially since the tags got messed up in liamcool's post and it wasn't obvious.

unvote

[curiouskarmadog]

guess that is why I didnt catch this the first time I read it..should of went back to check

unvote

although I dont agree with Bookitty, if it was going to be discovered anyway, why wouldnt someone who is scum (or town) bring it to light?

egruntz, care to address my other questions though?

[Xylthixlm]

No, I'm the one that said that, not liam.

Oops! Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

Unvote, Vote egruntz

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pointless argument.

[Bookitty]

My reasoning is more this, CKD:

Egruntz was under a bit of pressure, at least from his own stated perspective. My vote was on him. Other votes were on Liamcool mistakenly for a quote that egruntz made. Thus the logical assumption would be that if egruntz owned up to the quote, that those votes would devolve to him, at least in my view.

Waiting a bit, lurking, might allow something else to develop to distract the town. At that time, pointing this out would perhaps be a less risky move. Our attention has been pretty well focussed on egruntz in one way or another, and that doesn't seem like a good thing for scum, nor something they would willingly bring upon themselves, as egruntz did here.

I could be wrong, but my feeling was that scum would have lurked and waited for someone else to point it out, if that was going to happen anyway. It wasn't an obvious thing, due to the tag failure, so it wouldn't have made egruntz seem any more suspicious in my eyes anyway.

Just my opinion though.

[Xylthixlm]

egruntz is trying very hard to be helpful to the town.

[Mills]

Unvote

Vote: Disciple Slayer

the Village Idiot

I refer you to his generally unhelpful posts in this thread and this game (

EDITTED OUT

) where he manages to also be a retard. Also he seems to be lynched a lot on Day One so let's not break the trend!

[OhGodMyLife]

Unvote

Vote: Disciple Slayer

the Village Idiot

I refer you to his generally unhelpful posts in this thread and this game (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6636) where he manages to also be a retard. Also he seems to be lynched a lot on Day One so let's not break the trend!

Mills, this is generally unhelpful. Maybe you want to give DS a chance to speak for himself here, as he said he will as soon as he's back after Christmas, rather than just urging his lynch for meta reasons before he's really even done anything.

egruntz I'm leaning much more towards being pro-town, based on his being quickly forthcoming on the issue of the misquoting, although he is still very wrong about wanting a no lynch today. It seems like the majority of the town knows this though, so we're not in danger of actually voting for that.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Unvote

Vote: Disciple Slayer

the Village Idiot

I refer you to his generally unhelpful posts in this thread and this game (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6636) where he manages to also be a retard. Also he seems to be lynched a lot on Day One so let's not break the trend!

I agree with Mills that Disciple Slayer is being unhelpful, and that pointless bandwagon votes without contributing discussion is pretty scummy looking. However, his scumminess seems to me to be way too obvious. What mafia would give such blatent tells? On the other hand, what townie would? If I were to hazard a geuss right now, I would say that Disciple Slayer is a mafia attempting to hide in plain sight. Perhaps, he thinks that such obvious tells would incline us to belive that he is not mafia after all. I will be reserving my vote until after Disciple Slayer attempts to explain himself.
Dispite my own suspicions of Disciple Slayer, I find Mills post suspicious, especially his last sentence. I don't have anything against meta gaming, but I feel its wrong to lynch players solely on past games. To me this looks like a mafia attempt to start an easy bandwagon.

egruntz is trying very hard to be helpful to the town.

Sometimes a player that appears to be trying too hard to help the town, actually

is

trying to help the town. I get the feeling this is the case with Egruntz. There has been much make of his seeming "newness", yet he tells us he has played before. Mafia playing up newbie tells to gain a bit of FoI is ploy that has been used before.

Currently my highest suspicions are Disciple Slayer and Egruntz. We have a few lurkers as well, and they always have my suspicion. However, I am willing to give a few more days before calling them out, as this is a busy time of year and I'd like to give them the benifit of the doubt.

[Mills]

@ Snaps

I'm quoting this from the other game I'm in since I like the way I put it there.

EDITTED OUT

I feel like we have an exception in this game. *shrug*

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Forgot to include my thoughts on Bookitty and The Fonz.

They seemed to have taken opposite sides on the "Egruntz" issue. Sometimes when two players take opposing veiws other players assume that one MUST be a mafia and one MUST be innocent. What is usally the case, however, is that both are innocent with differing ideas, or they turn out to both be mafia trying to polarize the townies. In my opinion, day one is too early to try this gambit, even for experienced players, as they would not yet had a chance to talk and work out a plan.