Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831


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Post Post #1875 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:41 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

First of all, thanks for the game, everyone! I enjoyed reading along, and I enjoyed playing during the last day.

kison, thank you for a great game. I feel you played well. I particularly liked how you started reconsidering when you weren't blocked in the night Pine was killed.

Eddie, very well played. Also, thank you for the civil way you handled my accusation of you.

Hito, it was a pleasure to see you play. I have good memories of playing with Copper, and your play here reminded me why.

---

That being said, this game had a serious problem with activity. The relative inactivity of Old Man and Momrangal was quite annoying. I replaced in with more then a week to go till deadline, but I only got a single post from Momrangal to work with. I had hoped that if she was scum, she had missed the post where Firebringer claimed not to have targetted anyone night 1, which is why I asked her for her nightchoices. There wasn't time to follow up when she didn't give them, though, and I felt dealing with the Old Man fakeclaim was higher priority. In the context of the entire game, their inactivity was relatively mild, though. Rayfrost in particular must have been a nightmare to play with. It seems to me that a geriatric game really needs clear expectations on the minimum activity that is required from players, and needs a commitment from the players to meet that requirement.

Similarly, I feel that the apathy in this town was horrible, particularly day 1. Far too many players were happy to wait till deadline without even trying to achieve a lynch. Unlike Eddie, I don't think the deadline is to blame for this, though. If this game had 2 week deadlines, we would also have seen the play pattern where nothing happened for most of the day, followed by a flurry of activity near deadline.

---

Old Man, wouldn't it have been far better to claim Vanilla Townie after Lycan had claimed even night cop? Claiming Vanilla would have been the last step in a [] gambit. It would have immediately exposed Lycan's claim as fake, thereby guaranteeing his lynch (now, you also needed Kison to track Lycan to get him lynched). Furthermore, it would have saved you from having to come up with a fake result night 3 (your claim to have been roleblocked lead Kison and Pine to join you on the rofl mislynch), and it would have gone a long way to preventing your mislynch as well (if you look at the argument I made against you, the first six points are essentially "this is why Old Man claim is fake").

I must admit that your flip came completely out of left field for me. I guess in this case to me fakeclaiming seemed so obviously beneficial from a scum perspective, and so obviously detrimental from a town perspective, that I simply didn't even realize that I might have to consider the possibility of fakeclaiming town.

---

Regarding the PGO: It is my strong belief that in the right hands, a PGO is a strong powerrole. It is an ability that has the potential to kill of mafia, and that can't be accidentally used against Vanilla Townies. The goal of the role should be to draw the nightkill. That has the risk of drawing protects as well, but it should be a net positive for the town.

@Hito: I believe I suggested a way to conftown a PGO: be targeted by a Roleblocker when there's only 1 member of the mafia left alive.

Having a PGO in a game with a Serial Killer is poor setup design, though, as it is one more way in which the SK can randomly lose. I'm surprised it's mafia that has an ability to deal with the PGO, as I would belief SK would need it more. After all, mafia can already deal with the PGO if they really want to, by sacrificing one of their members.

Did you consider making the SK bulletproof when killing? That way, there would be a whitelisted counter to the PGO (far better then the unpredictable greylisted role), while the SK has protection similar to the commuter they have now. One shot strongman would no longer be a good choice for scum power in that situation, but that's fixable.

---

One final note: at deadline, the player with the highest number of votes gets lynched. In case of a tie, the first player to that number of votes gets lynched. These rules imply that theoretically, town can win a 2v2 situation if they both vote the same mafioso immediately. I doubt that interaction was intended, as evidenced by the fact that Korts called the game, but it is something that is enabled by the rules.
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Post Post #1876 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:43 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

In post 1875, MichelSableheart wrote:Claiming Vanilla would have been the last step in a [] gambit.
*Kokusho's Gambit
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Post Post #1877 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:00 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

In post 1875, MichelSableheart wrote:@Hito: I believe I suggested a way to conftown a PGO: be targeted by a Roleblocker when there's only 1 member of the mafia left alive.
If the PGO claim was a mafia fakeclaim, they could just shoot the roleblocker, right? So even if the PGO is town, they can shoot the roleblocker (or no-kill and trust the PGO to do it's job - it depends if you're more scared that the roleblocker is gambiting and going to target elsewhere, or if you're more scared of a watcher on the roleblocker). If only the roleblocker dies at night, I don't see a way for the town to verify whether it was due to them targeting a PGO or being shot by the mafia to keep up their fake PGO.
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Post Post #1878 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:16 am

Post by Korts »

Thank you all for voicing your issues with the setup. I will take it all into consideration if and when I decide to moderate a game again. Probably next year or something.
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Post Post #1879 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:26 am

Post by Ginngie »

Thanks for the game still
Shoutout to PJ and Nahdia for making my amazing new avi :)

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Post Post #1880 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:34 am

Post by schadd_ »

In post 1873, Pine wrote:Also I cringe at “wolf” being used as a generic word for scum. I do like the notion of “deepwolfing” though. That evokes the metaphor of “wolf in sheep’s clothing” to me, and so doesn’t bother me as much.
"wolfy" sounds way better than "scummy" to me esp. since the latter is already like an insulting term people use
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Post Post #1881 (ISO) » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:58 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

In post 1877, hitogoroshi wrote:
In post 1875, MichelSableheart wrote:@Hito: I believe I suggested a way to conftown a PGO: be targeted by a Roleblocker when there's only 1 member of the mafia left alive.
If the PGO claim was a mafia fakeclaim, they could just shoot the roleblocker, right? So even if the PGO is town, they can shoot the roleblocker (or no-kill and trust the PGO to do it's job - it depends if you're more scared that the roleblocker is gambiting and going to target elsewhere, or if you're more scared of a watcher on the roleblocker). If only the roleblocker dies at night, I don't see a way for the town to verify whether it was due to them targeting a PGO or being shot by the mafia to keep up their fake PGO.
The point is that if there's only one mafia member left alive, that one mafia member has to make the kill. This means that if that one mafia member is targetted by a roleblocker, the mafia can't kill that night. So if the claimed PGO is a fakeclaiming mafia, the roleblocker won't die through a PGO ability (as that's fake) and they won't be nightkilled by mafia (as the only one who can make that kill was blocked). This means that if the roleblocker does die (no matter who the mafia targets), the PGO can't be mafia.
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Post Post #1882 (ISO) » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:13 pm

Post by Axelrod »

Well, I've got nothing bad to say about anyone. Game was obviously rough at times. Don't know why there seemed to be such hostility early on, but unfortunately that plus all the replacing really killed it for me. And it's also unfortunate
some
people can't distinguish indecisiveness from scumminess. :P

I feel like I could have got there eventually, though I might not have come around on Eddie before it was too late. He was really good. Similarly, while I was feeling pretty good about Gingee not being scum, the idea that there might be a SK in the game wasn't even on my radar for obvious reasons, so props to him as well. I had people in rough groupings when I died, and they weren't
totally
inaccurate. :wink:

Fairly certain I would have been all over Momrangel after a Town RBer claim though and I'm not sure how that one sailed through so uncontested.

No clue what Old Man was doing and was genuinely shocked to see him flip vanilla Town. For someone like me, when Townies lie like that it just totally borks my whole game. The only reason I was willing to slide on Lycan was because of how his claim kind of/sort of seemed like it could fit with Old Man's. Of course, if Old Man doesn't lie there - and draw that parallel false claim - he's got a good chance of being lynched himself, so maybe it's a wash. Don't know how it would have ultimately played out.

Still, good game. Maybe I'll try one again before two more years go by.
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Post Post #1883 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:32 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1882, Axelrod wrote:Fairly certain I would have been all over Momrangel after a Town RBer claim though and I'm not sure how that one sailed through so uncontested.
This is particularly true given Old Man fakeclaimed being roleblocked, and Momrangal claimed town roleblocker.

I was quite frankly baffled people didn't just think of the obvious (even if right for the wrong reasons) conclusion of Momrangal truthfully claiming role but not alignment.
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Post Post #1884 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Post by Ginngie »

In post 1883, mastina wrote:I was quite frankly baffled people didn't just think of the obvious (even if right for the wrong reasons) conclusion of Momrangal truthfully claiming role but not alignment.
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Post Post #1885 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:28 pm

Post by MichelSableheart »

In post 1883, mastina wrote:
In post 1882, Axelrod wrote:Fairly certain I would have been all over Momrangel after a Town RBer claim though and I'm not sure how that one sailed through so uncontested.
This is particularly true given Old Man fakeclaimed being roleblocked, and Momrangal claimed town roleblocker.

I was quite frankly baffled people didn't just think of the obvious (even if right for the wrong reasons) conclusion of Momrangal truthfully claiming role but not alignment.
In my case, it was the lack of a roleblock Night 4. If Momrangal was a scum roleblocker, Kison would have been blocked.
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Post Post #1886 (ISO) » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:41 pm

Post by MichelSableheart »

Will the private topics for this game get posted?
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Post Post #1887 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:59 am

Post by Korts »

Oh right, fair enough. Does this work for all of you, or do I need to tamper with the privacy settings some more?
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Post Post #1888 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:28 pm

Post by MichelSableheart »

It works, thank you.
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Post Post #1889 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:09 am

Post by Eddie Cane »

havent had time to read the last page,

If theres a spectator and or a mod thread could that be released too please :)
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Post Post #1890 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:02 am

Post by Korts »

No specator thread. I would post the review/mod thread, but it was opened by Nexus, and I can't modify the privacy settings. I've posted all setup and night action resolution material here already, though.
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Post Post #1891 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:33 am

Post by mastina »

In post 1890, Korts wrote:No specator thread. I would post the review/mod thread, but it was opened by Nexus, and I can't modify the privacy settings. I've posted all setup and night action resolution material here already, though.
You can ask him to release it.
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Post Post #1892 (ISO) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Post by implosion »

If you want to nominate this game or any people in it (moderator or players) for a scummy, please do!
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