Overkill 2: A Blood-Thirsty Stallone Themed Game

[Varsoon]

Ya'll wild. I'm not worth voting just cus I played one way or another before. I'm worth voting 'cus I rolled scum. Get with it, chumps.
VOTE: RCE

[Varsoon]

God this page 1 scum theater has been great
I'm really glad I rolled with you guys as my team
Like what are the chances amirite

[Varsoon]

I ain't submitting to no robot overlord, Cerb
You should know this.

[Varsoon]

...then why'd you sign up for the game advertised as Overkill?

[Varsoon]

My crumbing skills are of the chart man. Nobody caught it last game nobody will this game.

Isn't the point of crumbs that people pick them up?
NOT THAT IT MATTERS EVEN IF YOU DO CRUMB SOMETHIN
LIKE IT'S NOT AS IF PEOPLE WILL PICK UP A GUILTY CRUMB AND ACTUALLY LYNCH ON IT
EVEN WHEN YOU EXPLICITLY. SPELL. IT. OUT.

[Varsoon]

Sorry I don't have more games where I get an N1 guilty, crumb it, then get day-shot.
It's not exactly a common thing.

[Varsoon]

I've learned my lesson, though. If I ever get a guilty in another closed setup, I'm outright claiming it instead of beating around the bush for associative tells. That game might've been won if I just claimed that guilty.

[Varsoon]

You are right, usually RR hold their votes close to the chest.
Though I think I did recently (by which I mean in the last year or so) see a game where Cerb was way more vote-happy and it tripped me up
Though, thinking back, maybe that was Cerb out of hydra?
Cerb, do you know what game I'm taking about?

My memory is garbage though, so I could just be wrong. :/

[Varsoon]

I only read your PT in games I moderate. D:
I think it might've been Overkill but I remember going "Shit that's weird Cerb is vote hopping and voting like... a normal mafiascum player."

[Varsoon]

I vomited up blood this morning!
Anyway I'll be fine, just have had a really painful cough and infection.
I dunno why people think I'm town based on what I've posted so far especially in light of BoR which was a setup with TONS OF KILLS where I intentionally kept a low profile to try to duck shots.
DrewVa--what makes me inactive garbage play here town compared to my inactive garbage play in BoR?
Also yeah I truly did forget and screw up how desperado worked like 4 times publicly in that setup so I should be ashamed of myself because it wasn't even a rhetorical ploy it was just me loud-derping.

[Varsoon]

I went doctor without insurance, just visiting cost 128 bucks.
I'll pick up my prescriptions tonight and let ya'll know the damage.
It wasn't like gallons of blood or anything and I've been coughing up blood in the morning too.
It's a really bad cough. I mean, bad enough to induce vomiting, which is pretty bad.

Anyway.

I think that it's mostly that this is a setup with a lot of potential kills in it so people don't wanna stick their neck out too far out of concern of catching a bullet. Given how A50's approached role design before, it's safe to say a lot of people are PRs that they feel could help solve the game--or they're literally a role that needs to survive--or they're scum. So it makes sense from a survival standpoint that people wanna kinda keep from dedicating to anything too hard in case they offend the wrong person and catch lead for it, but it's not like BoR where literally 2/3 the playerbase could day-shoot you so I don't agree with the hesitation to just town hard in the paint and not solvegame. I get it, like, people don't wanna die and, typically, not wanting to die is seen as a scum trait, but I disagree with it entirely. This is a Stallone game. We're meant to jump into this guns blazing, right?

[Varsoon]

I mean, shit, dude, I'm on RCE.
I'm the lead vote there.
I know I haven't doubled down on it, and my vote may be taken as some RVS nonsense but I haven't wavered for hard reason;
Dude did this wild RVS shit where he put me up onto multiple votes early while giving rationale that I caught scum-him in an earlier game (so why's that make me a good RVS candidate here?)
Dude was complicit with my bold-faced scum claiming asshatery which feels real slippery.
Dude was super eager to flop his vote around early onto obv-town Hebi in a way that doesn't sit right with me
Dude skeeved right off that wagon once it became sub-optimal to stay,
Dude is now on wisdom, who I am pretty sure is town
Dude has an ISO of joke posts and one-sentence skim
Dude where's my car
No really though I should've chosen a different means of referring to the dude.
Anyway.
I dunno how much of this is just personal beef with how that guy interfaces but I really really think I've got a good chance of being right out the woodwork there and nothing else sings to me like that lynch.
It's also gotten other votes so so so easy which feels good.
It just feels good, RR.

[Varsoon]

I realize a bunch of people posted between RR's post about conviction and my 376 there.
For the record, 376 is a response to RR.

[Varsoon]

Like the cray shit is
You're in a game with 26 people right
Right
You come in and you see Flavor Leaf has voted Varsoon but just ditched that vote to go somewhere else
Instead of voting anywhere else, you vote Varsoon to drive attention back there, specifically calling out a game that Flavor Leaf was in as well, all while guffawing about it being a vote over me having caught him in that game
Like why
Why that level of manipulative ploy and swipe at making the momentum go back towards me?
It's cus that dude knows I'm the fucking scatman.

[Varsoon]

You don't have to be my buddy to be town, you dink.

[Varsoon]

Hah
Creature's avatar
is a creature.

[Varsoon]

Well, I don't use shoes as avatar

Spoiler: Your loss

[Varsoon]

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

That’s the vote I’m most comfortable with right now.

spoonfeed me on that vote
'cus from what I've read BrightEyed just seems BushyTailed and easy.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: holy shit real talk this would be a sick af avatar

[Varsoon]

Why didn't you vote then?

[Varsoon]

Like what were you waiting for?

[Varsoon]

Like the only possible reason I can see for why you'd come around to a vote there rather than just slam it at that point in time is that RR's lighting a fire under me about conviction and it made you go "Oh yeah!"

[Varsoon]

What does creature's interest in non-posters have to do with creature's alignment?

Feels as unnecessary as bidding over 5,000 on any of the sabotages in Cutthroat Kitchen unless you're in the last round.
Nothing irks me quite like people playing that game very poorly.

[Varsoon]

Seems like there's plenty of people to pick on for having barely anything when it comes to content.
Are you aware of how heavily people meta-read creature based on activity?

[Varsoon]

...do you think a Cutthroat Kitchen themed mafia game could work?
Like everyone starts with $25,000 to spend publicly before each day phase on bids for mechanics that 'sabotage' other players
Curious how I'd flavor lynching and kills though... Hm.
Has anyone else ever done the whole 'panel of judges' lynch thing?

It's a closed theme setup, Toog. A50 can just invent roles.

[Varsoon]

I'm glad that both RR and RCE had nothing to say in response to me.
Wild.

[Varsoon]

Bujaber - FL made a good point about grabbing attention. The back and forth with Nancy was exactly that, Don't think Wisdom has anything to gain from the exchange. The pressure on Nancy is nice and Wisdom may not have set it in motion but he did jumpstart it. Sad FL called Nancy town so early.

He also shut Varsoon down which was pretty sweet.

For the record this is your best post so far

I'm havin' a laugh because
1. RCE thinks Bujaber 'shut me down', somehow? When I go to sleep, is Bujaber tucking me in? When I leave my computer to get dinner, is that Bujaber making me hungry? Aw shit I got work now gotta go clock some time for Bujaber.

2. Bujaber is complicit in taking cred for this and saying RCE's turd of a post is their 'best post so far' which is hilarious because it's an information instead of analysis post and it's incredibly weak and if this constitutes RCE's best posting, I'm havin' a laugh


Still catching up but if Bujaber develops a townread on RCE from this, doesn't look great for either slot.

[Varsoon]

Oooh no I get it now.
RCE's trying to say that FL shut me down?
Or someone else?
I'm still not shut down though
Does not make sense
RCE a scum

[Varsoon]

So I am caught up now and RCE's hard shift from garbageposting to actually trying to grapple with his wagon has me wondering if I should hit the breaks on it or not. Like, as scum, yeah, he'd have to change his approach in order to survive and I'm extremely sketched out on how quick he is willing to think I'm just town for my push and be level headed about it, but the fact I haven't seemed to have gotten under this dude's skin at all and that he's actually doing something resembling work makes me wanna shift gears, too.

RCE:

Out of the other people who are 'Varsooning' you; why aren't you pushing for more pressure there? Do you think there's scum in those players? Do you think your wagon is an easy sheep or...?

This whole thing has made me look a lot more at Bujaber, who feels less genuine than the 'leather' jacket I got from the flea market.
Like what have you gotten out of any of your interactions or questions, Buja?
VOTE: Bujaber

[Varsoon]

@Thor: Just finished a game with that dude and he sweated like no tomorrow as scum under pressure.
I'm not seeing it as much here. The play ain't great and I'm still not townreading him but I'm willing to pump the breaks to suss out things that are bothering me.

[Varsoon]

Thor cheerleading a wagon is pretty standard for him, regardless of align.
I just meant here--like that it was easy for people to quickly sheep out on a wagon on you.
What makes Majiffy likely scum there?

[Varsoon]

Wonky.
It seems like scum would be far more cognizant and thinking of mentioning pocketing/buddying than town, who'd just wanna catch scum.

[Varsoon]

Good thing that when I've got a scumread on you, you're quick to call into question my capacity to read people.

I'm stayin' parked here.
...and that jacket was cool.

[Varsoon]

I'm saying that your comment that it was his best post doesn't hold water and seems like a weird way to start walking back your vote on him.
I want to vote you because your play bothers me more than his right now.

[Varsoon]

Oh shit I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to scumread more than one person in a 26 player game on D1
Fuck me right then

[Varsoon]

It's minimum effort which, at that point, is practically required if he's actually scum.
It doesn't express much independent thought--the conclusions he's coming to in that post aren't challenging or particularly unique to RCE's PoV.
It feels like he skimmed up to that point and just recounted literally what happened.
I'm not a fan of it.
I don't get why you are.
Like yeah I can get 'encouraging better content' but it really doesn't look like that's what you were doing at all.

[Varsoon]

Oh Varsoon too

Damn I wanted to be cool and lead the charge

You can still take the reigns if you have some actual reasons to elaborate on why other folks should be voting there
This is my worst challenge when it comes to mafia
It's really hard for me to get others to see shit that I consider obvious

[Varsoon]

Massclaim
more like
assclaim

I'm baking anti-mass claim mechanics into all my future setups BRB

[Varsoon]

Massclaim
more like
assclaim

I'm baking anti-mass claim mechanics into all my future setups BRB

Why do you dislike mass claims? I agree. they should never be done until later into the game but not at all?

I admit, I was very sore about that last game as I was about being copped but mass claiming can help town when you get closer to LYLO.

Massclaim is discouraged this game 'cause scum has fakeclaims made specially for them

3- This game most certainly canNot be broken by flavor-gaming or mass claiming. (I will still advise against the practice though)

4- If you didn't get it: All anti-Town players have been provided with proper fake claims.

I wonder if those fake claims involve flavour. He says no flavour gaming but I was able to help solve Labrynth based on the fake flavour connection between scum!Chick and scum!rando in that one.

Alright I see now how claiming anything just helps scum. :/

Because I like to win because I was smart and not because of a setup being poorly designed.
Flavor gaming/mass claiming are both gimmick plays to exploit the design of a setup and, to me, are against the spirit of the game.
Like yeah I'll go along with whatever shit because it'll win but it's still garbage and I hate it.
I could go into it more but that's the simple of it.

[Varsoon]

Part of what had me cackling all throughout FFTactics was that people thought they could organize some mass-play nonsense and win
When what they should've just done was fucking caught scum.

[Varsoon]

The short answer is, of course, 'Design a game that can't be flavor-gamed or won on a massclaim'
The problem is that having enjoyable flavor often is difficult to do while avoiding flavor-gaming just winning it
The problem is that designing a role madness non-normal setup is difficult to do with massclaim in mind
It can be done and I'd argue I've done it before but
It's annoying when you DO design it right and players still try to exploit stuff like that for an advantage.

[Varsoon]

It sucks to be on the losing side of that shit, regardless of what that side is.
Honestly, it sucks to be on the winning side of that shit, too. It feels empty to me.
It's entirely divorced from why I play mafia. It's why I avoid open setups like the plague. It's why I haven't signed up for any more newbie games despite enjoying them a good deal as of late.

[Varsoon]

The irony is that what I really want to play is a mountainous game, ideally.
But a lot of players derive more engagement with the game if there are roles there
And I enjoy rendering flavor of themes I like as mafia mechanics and roles
So the challenge I give myself is attempting to render out a setup with fitting roles and flavor where the role interactions help propel a game of rhetoric rather than supersede it.

[Varsoon]

Like real talk Massclaims win games no lie
And some games are designed around the inevitability of a massclaim given role arrangements (see: any worth-a-shit designed semi-open)
But I still think that shit is really lame as fuck

[Varsoon]

@MOD: What about roles like Ninja, which are typically considered bastard due to how they influence another's role to operate on what is essentially a moderator lie?
IE: A tracker gets a MOD CONFIRMED no targets visited from a Ninja who definitely visited someone.

[Varsoon]

Just ate so so so much food. Turkey day is great, ya'll.

Anyway
RR doesn't make this play as scum, imo.
Also, Mafia is a game of rhetoric. You should expect that literally anything you post in the game thread is subject to speculation and doubt--if it bothers you that your earnest emotions can be interpreted as rhetorical posturing, maybe avoid games where that's literally a strategy.
I'm pretty much taking you both at face value regardless, for what it's worth;
Like I believe DrewVa is actually frustrated/feeling these ways
and I believe RR legitimately is finding issue with how DrewVa is playing
But like I said
I don't think either of their play is specifically attempting to manipulate others.

[Varsoon]

^ And by that, I mean dishonest manipulation. Like, yes, obviously, both are trying to convince others of their viewpoint, but neither has a dishonest viewpoint imo

P-EDIT:
Yeah I literally said on page 1 that RCE was my scum partner, guess no one takes RVS posts seriously
whoops I'm doing that trust-tell thing again

[Varsoon]

So RR is a player that I legit do have a ton of issue reading thanks to moderating a TON of their games and seeing them play both sides of the coin.
I'd actually have an absolute scumread on them for the Cerb head taking an experimental/different approach than usual given I recall that kinda being the case when Cerb was in my SaGa Frontier game (hydra'd differently, was third party) but given the town!experimentation with approach in the previous Overkill game, I can't lean too much on that meta point anymore.

I think they're town, especially given the Drixx posts and the general ethos both exude here, though that's more a gut read than something I can articulate very well.

Why, whacha think? Hard slot to parse or something else?

[Varsoon]

Yeah profii your vote is bad and you should feel bad
Anyway

Daykill : Profii

[Varsoon]

Like what posts/words?
I'll be honest, I glazed through the last 7 pages in catchup pretty hard
Don't mean any disrespect or anything on my end
Just want you to be hard aware that people will for sure misread emotion in this game and will hard misread emotional response as rhetorical manipulation.
It's probably not accurate to call it 'bullying' or something like 'emotional browbeating' but yeah.

[Varsoon]

P.edit Drixx, I think you’re being kind of mean to me here. Please stop it. Thanks.

If I'm reading correctly, the above ^ is a response to the below

I expect more activity from creature,

thor, RR

, CT.

Both Thor and RR have posted every day. Was there more you were expecting there? Were you expecting uber posting?

They both took a commanding role in overkill 1.
Granted Thor was SK so perhaps not the best comparison but I assume he was playing similar to how he would as town. I've never been SK just seems like the right way to play it.

We always take a commanding role, regardless of alignment. We don't always do it in the early parts of day one in a very large game. We also don't always ignore relatives in town for major holidays (I've had family over for a week already, for example).

Also ... we've already put out at least two solid rationales for why Hebichan and Drewva are looking quite bad from things they posted this game. I'm not sure how much more other people are "commanding" the game atm? I see a lot of people ignoring or hand waving away Hebichan's lying and by some bizarre twist of reasoning, nearly everyone seems to think Nancy's histrionics and circular reasoning are a reason to town read the Drewva hydra.

Not sure what more you want here bud. Maybe be a bit more specific?

~D

Happy Thanksgiving to all the {Insert correct terminology here}™

I don't really get what's mean about this post.

[Varsoon]

And the correct terminology is

Pilgrims

P-EDIT:
Ditto. I don't think you should stop playing games either, just be aware that people will interpret genuine expression as rhetorical manipulation a lot.
I've gotten mad frustrated with games and literally scoffed at and told to stop AtE'ing tons. It's wild out there.
I still think you should keep playin and I still value you a ton as a player <3

P-P-EDIT:
The previous was for RR, then Nancy; this Post-Preview-Edit is for RCE;
I've moderated like 90% of the games RR's played on-site, I think. I even helped build and spectated Overkill 1. If anyone's cognizant of RR's meta, it's me. A lot of stuff here points to RR's town rhetoric, but a lot of the play is very meta-contrary regardless of alignment, if that makes sense. Cerb-head already spoke towards being aware of this and seeing if people would catch on, so there's a bit of WIFOM there regardless.
Tbh, kinda hoping that they just get killed so I don't have to sort them but their play will make their alignment real evident in time--I've got em as town (possible third party) for now, but I don't see this play as coming from scum RR whatsoever.

[Varsoon]

been literally scoffed at*
monsters
People should always just trust me.

[Varsoon]

DrewVa, here's the thing;
RR was scumreading your slot for their reasons
You asked them to stop being mean, which I believe they took as 'stop pushing a scumread on me because it is mean to do so' rather than 'stop using such aggressive rhetoric it bothers me'
So Drixx, who has a huge problem with people leveraging AtE like that, doubled down on that stance.
At least that's what I've taken from it, if that makes sense.

[Varsoon]

So like, from Drixx's PoV your play is still rhetorical/game-based and him sticking to his convictions of a scumread isn't intended as disrespect
Which becomes more of an issue because he takes a harder rhetorical stance that feels like it invalidates your feelings or twists them in some way/makes you out as some emotional bully which, imo, you're not.

[Varsoon]

'Histrionics' sure is a 5 dollar word that I haven't seen used since I was in college.
I get where you're coming from but, again, I reiterate that it's not an invalid position for RR to have in context of both that post and this as a game of mafia.

Anyway surprised the thread hasn't locked yet.

[Varsoon]

Also havin a laff that profii straight ghosted.
Probably to go tell scumbuddies what to do post-flip.

[Varsoon]

I tend to infer bullying a lot harder as a situation where intimidation (and often social dynamics) are involved--but that's more from the PoV of an educator where the sort of bullying I deal with manifests as social and physical bullying.

Being like "Your rhetorical aggressiveness makes me uncomfortable to the point of wanting to replace out" comes off far less like bullying to me. It's not so much of a taking-the-ball-and-going home thing since the game can continue with a replacement and replacing out for personal reasons (such as feeling emotionally compromised from playing to wincon) are perfectly valid. I don't really see DrewVa's move to replace out as a threat so much as an actual indicator that your rhetoric is legitimately making them consider replacing out.

P-EDIT: That's what I'm saying. Profii's not confident enough to not spill the WINE.

P-P-EDIT: Day should continue but thread will lock so a flip can be posted and VC should reset.

[Varsoon]

Btw I’m about to head off but if Varsoon is not a day vig then we should lynch him - will explain when I arrive and can get access to a keyboard... 110 miles to go do couple hours

Why does my alignment change suddenly if I am a day vig or not?
I literally just lost a game with a scum day vigilante in it.

[Varsoon]

@DrewVA: How's Cheeky's suggestion of not interacting with you because you push her buttons different from your suggestion that Drixx not interact with you because Drixx pushes your buttons?

[Varsoon]

I mean, I softed cop, too, for what it's worth.
I also didn't realize you were actually softing cop.
I just shot you 'cus I thought you'd flip scum.

[Varsoon]

Wait shit, profii I think I understand.
Everyone, Profii is town~
I faked the shot.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, couldn't keep it up until a votecount.
I think we've also got literally everything we'd get out of the gambit and also Profii is for sure town.

[Varsoon]

VOTE:VARSOON

For faking day actions

Did you get any worthwhile reads out of the interactions that happened due to it?
Do you agree that me faking the vig helped us move away from the RR v DrewVa stuff which was weighing the game down?

[Varsoon]

Fwiw I didn't believe the dayvig was a thing, but that kind of solidifies my townread on Varsoon. The play started with his vote on Profii so if you look for reactions start there and not the actual shot.

Which post? I don't think I ever voted Profii.

Wisdom being scum here would not surprise me in the least. I think he’s likely bussing Majiffy.

Also wouldn’t be shocked if Goofball/Majiffy/Wisdom are a team.

Team 'minimum effort;maximum results'
Honest though you would think a scumteam here does put out less content in order to have a lower profile.
Also, given the nature of being able to be killed themselves, they probably do a lot of D1 distancing and ish like that.

[Varsoon]

I mean
Meta arguments in general are garbage and I don't like em
For me, Meta ends up informing a lot of gut stuff for a player because I get a baseline for how their posting makes me feel as either alignment
But as far as strats and rhetoric goes, most players are capable enough to shift gears.

I always think meta should be supplemental to a case rather than the foundation for a scumread.

P-EDIT: Nah but the whole thing does kinda start around Profii voting and RR calling it a bad vote.

[Varsoon]

Didn't like his play regarding RCE and voting there--doesn't feel very genuine or like Bujab is trying to figure out the game at all.
I'd probably have put my vote elsewhere but Bujaber kind of slinked away the second the focus wasn't on them, which, in this game, rings as really slimy.
It's not even as if they're V/LA due to holidays or anything, because they have posted since, but their posts were so empty and weightless; lots of promises to do stuff they haven't done, calls me a sheep of DGB but never goes full-swing with DGB criticism for the naked vote, lots of talk about stuff that has no game impact.

Basically fits exactly the MO of what I think scum would have here and I don't wanna back down from this. I think it's a good wagon.

[Varsoon]

@Davesaz: Profii's a dead man after the claim and the walkback of the claim (when they realized this) solidified them as town for me.

[Varsoon]

Anyway Varsoon, now the dust has settled what did that day vig reaction test achieve for you and how/why

You're town and we got to move away from the lame RR v DrewVa stuff that was bogging the game down.
Other stuff too but that'll be evident D2.

[Varsoon]

Yeah I'm on antibiotics right now and my cough has gotten much much better
<3

[Varsoon]

Ew. The one time I can recall someone being like "I got this scumread but I'll explain it later" was GiF in a game where I pegged him as scum for it, he replaced out, then I was promptly killed and his team went on to win.
So excuse me if I'm going to be a bit critical of this kinda shit:
VOTE: Majiffy

[Varsoon]

It was this game, found it:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=72943

I have a piece to say to this shenanigans but for now I will wait.

I'd like to see more people post. If I'm going to slam a vote, it's:
VOTE: GuyInFreezer

They're too reserved right now. I know GiF is present given posts in the thread, but their stance regarding anything is inscrutable.
The whole "but for now I will wait" does not sit well with me. Why not just wait? Why post that?

Turns out he was scum and the person who replaced him went on to end-game
So if you think my skepticism is ill-founded, I've literally lost as town to scum playing this exact way before, Irrel.

Though to be fair, Irrel wasn't scum in the game I'm quoting here, so maybe being furtive about reasons for a scumread on D1 is just garbage play and not scum play but there's literally no way for me to parse one from the other given that it's low content play.

avec plaisir

[Varsoon]

MOD: Messed up my quote tags there, oof. Can you put the 'It was this game, found it:' line outside of those tags and fix them for us?

[Varsoon]

<3
I'd still throw it for your scumteam any day, Majiffy

But yeah why so terse on the details?
Why avoid sinking your teeth into like anything this game?

[Varsoon]

^ That too

[Varsoon]

I don't believe in tells in forum mafia.

[Varsoon]

Let's say you do, somehow, have some super secret tell that keys you in to knowing 100% what someone's alignment is;
What's the point if you can't share that information in order to help town?
Withholding that info is cynical at best.

[Varsoon]

Like you understand that me going "I have a tell that informs my read. Majiffy is 100% scum."
And when pressed on it I go, "not giving up my tell!"

[Varsoon]

Like you'd understand how shit that is?

[Varsoon]

RR can probably recall this better than me but I am fairly certain I modded a game where scum made a late entry and did exactly this. We all laughed.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I also hope KC's doing okay.
I don't really know what to make of Creature's play here, though. :/

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Bujaber
Back on the track, this the anime master.
Hoes on my flick, Cowboy Bebop when I'm blastin' em

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Bujaber
Back on the track, this the anime master.
Hoes on my flick, Cowboy Bebop when I'm blastin' em

bu is town, varsoon. Dont make me worry about you.

How even though

[Varsoon]

Can anyone explain why they're voting for Chikadee?
I don't get it.

[Varsoon]

So?
There's minimum effort from tons of players and effort=/=alignment.
Seems like low hanging fruit and I wouldn't be surprised if the ease of momentum the wagon has is due to scum hopping on it.

[Varsoon]

@Pint: I don't really find that to be all that damning. It's just parroting (useless) meta and then when confronted with creature's play (which many people didn't like), they had a sour reaction.
If anything, that reads more genuine to me than not. Misguided, but genuine.
Why would scum!Chikadee want flood!posting!Creature to stop, anyway?

[Varsoon]

I think it's discrediting and that Hebi's contributed far more than other 'no content'/'empty ISO' posters, but this is one of the few games I haven't butted heads with Hebi and they generally look town to me so that probably influences my PoV.

[Varsoon]

@Nero: For real, though, thoughts on Chikadee and the Chikadee wagon and why you've decided to go against the grain there?

[Varsoon]

I mean, you said the wagon's bad but you went a bit more into why it's wrong to scumread Chickadee but
I'm interested in your read on Chickadee
And who's scum for their positions re: Chickadee

[Varsoon]

Aw bye

[Varsoon]

Nero, pls answer me.

[Varsoon]

And who's scum for their positions re: Chickadee

Why are you so interested in who I scum read off the Chick wagon when you aren't doing this yourself?

'cus you called it bad and I want to see how much depth there is to that assessment.
I'm also sticking to my guns on my Bujaber read because it feels like that's the counterwagon to Chick even though the Bujab wagon's been around since before the Chick wagon.

[Varsoon]

Like you understand that if you throw shade on a whole wagon but don't go more into who's doing what wrong for which reasons, it's basically just pointless posturing, right?
I'm trying to strike at where you might just be bullshitting. If you're bullshitting, I can slice through that. If you're real, I get to know more about your reads and it makes reading you a little easier because you're a huge question mark.
Usually, you piss me off and that lets me know you're town but you've been pretty pleasant so far.

[Varsoon]

^ EBWOP: @Nero, all of that?

[Varsoon]

Like you understand that if you throw shade on a whole wagon but don't go more into who's doing what wrong for which reasons, it's basically just pointless posturing, right?

Why do I have to think that scum are voting her? I mean, I'm gut scumreading Pint, RC, Wisdom and Alchemist. So I think its somewhat likely that scum are on the wagon but in theory, a wagon can be scum-free or town based or town led or whatever but be bad. It happens all the time, why are you pretending like this is a rare occurrence or something? You're also pooh-poohing the Chick wagon so why are you so suspicious of something you are doing?

Didn't realize you meant bad as in 'not great' rather than bad as in 'scum'.
When I do it, I know why I'm doing it. When someone else does, I sure don't.
Regardless, I've been fairly open with my criticisms of the Chick wagon, so I don't know that this even applies.

[Varsoon]

RR, can you talk shop with me sometime this game
I feel directionless and I want my Bujab lynch but it's not winning.

[Varsoon]

Yeah that's basically what I feel like but it actually feels like if I could get into things then I could give the Bujaber wagon the push it needs cus it feels like it's at tipping point right now.
You lit a fire under my ass in the past, I dunno.
I tend to get overwhelmed in these really really large games like this and there's just too much info/content/interactions to focus on them all and I tend to just shut it out.

Do you think Profii's intentionally kinda sitting at where they're at in order to not compromise being a low-pushed wagon? Like how has profii's play from your read formation until now influenced your read?
'cus on my end Bujaber's play has just kinda adhered to the problems I've had with it all along. :/

[Varsoon]

It also bugs me that Clemency came in to decry their wagon and then kinda ghosted but I guess it hasn't been that long?
Or are they posting a bunch and I just didn't realize?

[Varsoon]

I'm not wild about it and not confident that it'll flip scum.
If it happens to be the lynch, I'm alright with it as I don't think Clem's a slot I'd argue is town or even worth keeping alive and plenty of people have had interactions there so it's not the worst green flip ever, it just doesn't excite me and I tend to avoid wagons/flips that don't excite me.

P-EDIT:
@RR: I thought profii looked REALLY BAD then, too, but then profii's responses after made me pretty sure profii was town.
Would you believe me if I told you that I forgot that I even faked the vig there?

[Varsoon]

Not comfortable with Hebi just sheeping people.
Hebi, whyyy

[Varsoon]

Why tails?

[Varsoon]

inb4 Toog is a hammer-enabled role and is steaming right now
What the hell

[Varsoon]

So do you think Toog is not town, then?
Or are you just trying to inhibit town power because...?

[Varsoon]

Yay I made it

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Toogeloo
Actual factual sheeping the better logic here.

Why don't you like DGB, RCE?

I also think Bujaber's still scum and likely did a late bus of Clem when it was apparent that was the only wagon that would go through.

[Varsoon]

I also recall Toogeloo being much more of an impressive player in previous games where they were town.

[Varsoon]

@DrewVA: Go back and look at Clem's self-hammer play regarding Toog.
I also am not a fan of flavor-gaming this when the mod literally just got his setup whooped by flavor-spec and went out of his way to make this one unbreakable by it. I fully believe that Rocky would be a fake-claim or scum role.

[Varsoon]

Yeah I'm still good for a Bujaber lynch, btw.
But just doing that out the gate D2 doesn't really buy me much new info whereas Toog is a big question mark for me.

[Varsoon]

This

inb4 Toog is a hammer-enabled role and is steaming right now
What the hell

inb4 Toog is a hammer-enabled role and is steaming right now
What the hell

why do you think i went for it

[Varsoon]

Time to hold on to our butts and see if Toog is lying.
Toog, if you're town, why in the world would you EVER vote here?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational
I feel Reasonably tricked.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational
I feel Reasonably tricked.

I really wish we were scum, because I'd be so fucking proud of getting a town slot to kill themselves with a single, one sentence post.

-Cerb

I don't think you're scum.
I think you're third party.
Your play here has been reminding me really hard of how you played in SaGa Frontier.

[Varsoon]

Biggest pings for me is
1. You being a lot more jovial and less critically serious
2. You pushing Toog the way you did to vote if he were town (to save his team a mislynch?!)
3. You being really meta-aware and playing contrary to it purposefully and vocally.

[Varsoon]

@Profii: You're divorcing my posts from their context. I was trying to figure out Nero.
I never had the intention of being on the Chickadee wagon; I saw it as low hanging fruit and I wouldn't be surprised if Chickadee was heavily bussed and voted by non-town players who weren't a part of his team.

[Varsoon]

The thing that I find baffling is that town!Cerb would NEVER push for Toog to self-vote/self-explode before getting to at least L-2, because Town!Cerb would be all about those wagon interactions.
Driving Toog to do that ASAP strikes me as pressuring Toog to make a poor decision for town while also trying to keep any other (possibly poor) associatives from hitting the table.

P-EDIT: See, that's the scramble, Cerb's changing the story.

[Varsoon]

^ What Gamma said.
Coming now, it's all apologetics and posturing.

[Varsoon]

I just don't buy that this is how you handle D2 and Toog out the gate.
I sheeped you to see how you'd handle everything (and because I was interested in how a serious Toog wagon WOULD shape up) and your play around the Toog push has turned out to be unsatisfying.
I think the details of how you handled the role is far more likely to come from non-town you and positioning it in a void without the context of how you've also been playing in this game and in SaGa is intentionally turning a blind eye to the reality of the game.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, you're lowkey blatant here, DGB.

[Varsoon]

Huh.
So, like.
Do I just.
Vote you?

[Varsoon]

You guys just literally told me Toog was scum and I followed you and your hydra was just pushing a wagon on town and pressuring them to explode.
You didn't even know for sure if Toog's death would end the day.

[Varsoon]

REASSESSING INFO POST FLIP
IS LITERALLY
THE CORNERSTONE
OF HOW MAFIA WORKS

[Varsoon]

If it isn't Buj then it's RCE.
RCE's been slimy all game.

[Varsoon]

If it isn't Buj then it's RCE.
RCE's been slimy all game.

Why is it one or the other? How are they related?

They could be scum together. Outside of RR, they're my two picks for scum, though I could easily see RCE as scum openwolfing to Bujab, who's on Clem's team.

If it isn't Buj then it's RCE.
RCE's been slimy all game.

Weren't you trying to associate us as partners earlier? What changed?

You're both scum. Doesn't mean you're partners.

pint is town
cheeky is town
both gamma and nero need death

Nero's town.
Gamma's (probably) town.
I don't understand how you come to these conclusions of yours.

DID YOU KNOW?

Majiffy claimed to have a solid scum read on Chickadee due to a secret tell, yet he never voted her.

Ew. The one time I can recall someone being like "I got this scumread but I'll explain it later" was GiF in a game where I pegged him as scum for it, he replaced out, then I was promptly killed and his team went on to win.
So excuse me if I'm going to be a bit critical of this kinda shit:
VOTE: Majiffy

It was this game, found it:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=72943

I have a piece to say to this shenanigans but for now I will wait.

I'd like to see more people post. If I'm going to slam a vote, it's:
VOTE: GuyInFreezer

They're too reserved right now. I know GiF is present given posts in the thread, but their stance regarding anything is inscrutable.
The whole "but for now I will wait" does not sit well with me. Why not just wait? Why post that?

Turns out he was scum and the person who replaced him went on to end-game
So if you think my skepticism is ill-founded, I've literally lost as town to scum playing this exact way before, Irrel.

Though to be fair, Irrel wasn't scum in the game I'm quoting here, so maybe being furtive about reasons for a scumread on D1 is just garbage play and not scum play but there's literally no way for me to parse one from the other given that it's low content play.

avec plaisir

Oh, I know.
Also, thanks mod, for fixing my tags or whatever.

Anyway.

Yeah I'd be fine with a Majiffy lynch here, too.
But RR, if third party, has to go. It'll eliminate an entire killing party if he's SK. That's high value for us.

[Varsoon]

STOP STEALING MY IDEAS, TAILS

[Varsoon]

Well shit, that goes to show how much I've been following the game.
GiF also replaced out after I had him dead to rights and his replacement got townread.
Huh.

I still think you're town, Nero, didn't realize you were in the same slot.
That bothers me.

[Varsoon]

if I'm town why does that bother you?

Because I have a high confidence townread on you but not your predecessor so that creates inner conflict over what your slot's alignment is.

[Varsoon]

Where did I say your flip would have anything to do with RCE.
The post I was responding to was postulating that you might be town.

[Varsoon]

I think you're both scum.
If you're not scum, then RCE definitely is.
What about that don't you get?

[Varsoon]

We were discussing scum on the Clem wagon.
Cheeky says "I think Buj is town."
I respond that if you're not scum on the Clem wagon, then RCE definitely is.

[Varsoon]

Yeah aight suffer not the DGB to live
VOTE: DGB

[Varsoon]

VOTE: ReasonablyRational

That's all I wanted, DGB
That good good analysis and postin
Do more'a that
Make your joindate proud

[Varsoon]

Mmm?
Do I need to keep voting you to get you to keep playing?
I don't understand.

[Varsoon]

I kinda want to lynch scum, though.
But I think I get it.
VOTE: DGB

[Varsoon]

Or, ideally, third paRRty

[Varsoon]

I kinda want to lynch scum, though.
But I think I get it.
VOTE: DGB

Or, ideally, third paRRty

Why is lynching 3Ps more ideal than lynching mafia? I just want to lynch scum.

Removes extra kills from the game, which are more likely to land on town than scum by ratio alone.
The only way we get anything out of having third party around is if we leash them, but SaGa frontier is proof of the dangers of doing that
Furthermore, I am fairly certain that if RR is third party, they're also bulletproof.

[Varsoon]

Why Gamma?
I like Gamma, iirc.

[Varsoon]

Because I have a high confidence townread on you but not your predecessor so that creates inner conflict over what your slot's alignment is.

how do you plan on resolving this conflict?

Lynching DGB and hoping you get sorted overnight?
Otherwise, man, I dunno. Keep an eye on you, I suppose.

[Varsoon]

My memory is a bad one

[Varsoon]

I am using !otherscum because it will be easier to talk about !scum and !otherscum clearly. It'll be a trend that takes off - promise!

If you help me out with Varsooning in place of death tunneling then I'll back you up with !otherscum.

No no, not lynching Varsoon (even though I'm warming up to it) just use Varsooning instead of tunneling in future games.

Wait are you using 'Varsooning' to be synonymous with 'Tunneling'?
'cus if you are, fuck you
I have a handful of reads that I am SURE of and I'm going to stick on them until they are lynched or until evidence proves them innocent otherwise. That's not tunneling, it's playing the game

Lynch DGB here, though, dude's lynch helps town no matter what.

[Varsoon]

Lynch DGB here, though, dude's lynch helps town no matter what.

Either he's
1. A role that performs some sort of functionality DGB actually wants when lynched/killed
2. DGB is scum and using this to intentionally get people not to lynch his awful play especially re:Toogeloo's blowup

Seems like a win/win.

P-EDIT:
That makes sense, RCE.
Finally a post you've made that doesn't make my skin crawl.

[Varsoon]

Sorry for saying 'he' instead of 'she', just noticed your pronouns.
Anyway
You'll probably get shot at then.
VOTE: REAsonabLy RATional

[Varsoon]

Sorry for saying 'he' instead of 'she', just noticed your pronouns.
Anyway
You'll probably get shot at then.
VOTE: REAsonabLy RATional

I love you Varsoon. Between the "third paRRty" vote, and the REAL RAT here...just. Man. <3

-Cerb

<3
It aint no fun if the homies can't have none

[Varsoon]

Varsoon:

We would be well off with a heb lynch today. How many times do I have to hint at it?

Why?
Hebi's kept a low profile.
Usually they annoy me and turn out to be town.
Wait
Does that mean they're scum?

[Varsoon]

yeah
I thought about it some more
VOTE: Hebi
This is scum Hebi.

[Varsoon]

Just 'cus you're right doesn't vindicate you.

[Varsoon]

I dunno, it looks like you're pleading now instead of resigning.

[Varsoon]

If you're town, I'll apologize after you're down.
But I don't think you're town here.
Not after what you've done.

[Varsoon]

Hmm, you pushed toog too, so I'm not sure why you're trying to push it all on me.

I felt really bad about that.

Oh, no, that's not even the bad thing I am referring to.
Interesting that you took my ambiguous words and thought they applied to Toog
I mean, if you were paying attention, I've put plenty of blame for Toog on RR.

[Varsoon]

That's my point!
You always irk me.

[Varsoon]

Bake me some cinnamon rolls, I'm easy.
On the real, though, I'm voting you because you're scum.
It's that easy.

[Varsoon]

Bake me some cinnamon rolls, I'm easy.
On the real, though, I'm voting you because you're scum.
It's that easy.

Just push RR after I flip because the slot is seriously bad.

Aight.

[Varsoon]

Third-party Cerb would bring that point up.
Inb4 Cerb accuses me again of saying Third Party Cerb would WIFOM anything.

[Varsoon]

What's more damning is that Creature posted that and just ghosted.
VOTE: Creature

[Varsoon]

Why would it only be one goon per scumteam, Creature?

[Varsoon]

The scum self-votes in this game are really annoying me.
VOTE: Hebichan

[Varsoon]

...is it really a role madness game if you're a VT, though?

[Varsoon]

inb4 Cheeky Godfather

...is it really a role madness game if you're a VT, though?

TBF, token VTs in a role madness are a thing. Not that I believe Hebi but with as much modding exp. as you have I'm surprised you'd think this.

All of my games don't.
I think VT's a bum role to give someone in a game full of other roles.
Hell, even in my Varsoon Mafia game, the VT was informed that they were the only VT in setup.

[Varsoon]

Nah, it was an informed-anti-fake-claim role.

[Varsoon]

Cheeky, the only people who care about cops being on them are scum and millers.

[Varsoon]

Good, I hate being proven wrong.

[Varsoon]

At least one of those kills are scum. Personally think it's between Nero and Cheeky, but would like to know for sure.

Going into my weekend absence stretch. RR and Varsoon need to make arguments about why I should want to lynch the other person. Vote goes live on Monday.

Yeah nevermind the person who hard-faked a cop-soft and that I was aggressively pulled from the RR wagon onto someone who flipped VT.

[Varsoon]

Nero was town.
If it was between those two, it was Cheeky.

[Varsoon]

So...
Who'd you kill?

[Varsoon]

Why RCE?
Do you think your kill failed because of the global mechanic?
If so, doesn't that make RCE confirmed one way or another depending on the alignments of those that did die?

[Varsoon]

So you're saying you were redirected?

[Varsoon]

...didn't someone else already claim Rambo or something?
Or am I tripping?

On one level, I really don't think BEF gets shit all for lying to us here.

@Mod: If I had a power to investigate a player's alignment and my role was redirected, what would my result be?
If I had a power to investigate a player's alignment and someone blocked or stopped my action, what PM would I get?

Fairly certain BEF isn't lying about action usage, at least, given that they got a 'No Result' which I am fairly sure reflects that someone felt threatened by BEF's role and blocked them.
We SHOULD be looking at who BEF's scumreads were on D1.
If ya'll think that's premature and you need to lynch our cop over it, please reassess.

[Varsoon]

Oh no I was thinking of Toog who claimed Stallone and was like "HOW COULD STALLONE BE SCUM?"

[Varsoon]

I'm not really familiar with the Rambo movies.
Does someone eventually kill Rambo?

[Varsoon]

@Bujab: If it's fake, that's the whole point of the really weird 'only one person can hammer me AND it will mess up people on my wagon'. That's like a hugely survivalistic thing to claim.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

Yeah what Alchemist said pretty much seals this, then.

[Varsoon]

Hey, I was right, RCE did deserve to be lynched!
Eaaaat shiiiiiit RCE

[Varsoon]

^^^
I think Wisdom got it.
Cheeky probably was scared of that cop claim.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: RR
One SK.
One.
SK.

[Varsoon]

Awh gaddamnit cerb why you gotta go and make sense like that

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Gamma

Ugh.
I just.
I keep compromising what I WANT for what other people logic out as better lynches.
Like I wanted the RCE lynch but nooo now that guy gets to have a win.
And I wanted a Bujaber lynch but nooooo no one else gives a shit about THAT.
And I am fairly sure you're third party but nooooo

It's just BIG UGHs from me.
Like what I care about doesn't matter.

[Varsoon]

A50 be tiltin.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: DGB

I am really really cool with this.

[Varsoon]

I believe Profii for the same reasons that I believed BEF.
VOTE: GammaEmerald

[Varsoon]

Was going to blow a gasket and destroy a hundred keyboards if it had turned out that both FL and Bujaber's roles were solely designed to screw over my team and win without us.

[Varsoon]

I think everyone just rushed too much and took huge gambles in LYLO here, excluding AMZ, who wasn't as present as the other two. :/

[Varsoon]

360 headshot and aimed at the wrong person. Thank you for letting me play! Nepotism never really did anyone good.

I dunno, I thought you kept up really, really well for someone who's a first-timer on-site.
Keep at it, though maybe in simpler setups and smaller ones first and foremost.

[Varsoon]

@FL: You're a lot better than that Boonskies guy ever was, I'll say that much.

[Varsoon]

Cool your jets, Cerb, it's all G.
I think they get it.
No use being aggro now, it's over.

I don't even feel like I won, tbh.

A50, please design a smaller setup (13p to 18p range or so) that's not multiball next time, <3
Fantastic job modding this one, btw. You were on top of things and the flips/flavor was neat.
I like a good deal of your formatting, too.

[Varsoon]

Great game everyone. I had a lot of fun. Great modding. Great style, very unique game. All for it.

I actually hard disagree that this game was more about dodging bullets, while in a sense that is true, it’s up to you as a player to play in a way and play up to people to make that not happen.

I KNEW I wasn’t getting shot the majority of the time, and when I did lose my BP, I knew. freakin’ Mala and that Elite Body Guard shot.

Also, I definitely don’t know how RCEnigma lived the day they won.

I definitely shot at them.

You can't multi-task, so the shot didn't go through.
I KNOW
RIGHT

[Varsoon]

They take criticism poorly. Whatever.
Seriously, please, guys, don't escalate/fight this one out.

[Varsoon]

Town loses because everyone, as a team, collectively has made enough mistakes to bring the game to a loss.
It's really easy to point and say "In this critical moment, you messed up!" but that's natural. People make mistakes.
What's important is to learn from them and grow, rather than just getting pissed off at each other.

I was sure we'd actually lose because of my own weak play among that of other members of my team.
I felt like our number was up.

[Varsoon]

@Cerb: When people feel personally attacked, it makes it hard for them to differentiate between criticism and hate.
Trust me, I've literally been on both sides of this situation way more times in this last month than I am comfortable to admit and bans have been issued over how out of hand it's gotten.
Just chill it.
Be cool.
That goes for you, too, Nancy. It'll be alright. Cerb's frustrated with the loss. It's natural that the first thing he'd criticize is the last critical mistake town made.

[Varsoon]

Relax with all that, please.
Just because one player didn't do well doesn't mean they're unable to criticize someone else, y'know?
I'm not the best author in the world--I've written plenty of garbage. I make mistakes all the time. I can still point out flaws in big budget movie plots, though, y'know?

It's all fine. Don't take it so seriously. Yes, we all invested a shitload of time into the game, but I don't think anyone's play cheapens that more than being rude post-game does.

[Varsoon]

Like ya'll literally know each other's alignments and what you say here is from player to player.
Switch modes and switch codes.

P-EDIT:
@Cerb: Yeah, but you gotta consider how Nancy feels and the best way to package your advice and critique. Nancy just made a mistake that cost THEIR TEAM the game. If that was me, I'd be liable to feel really awful and if someone came out ragging on me for it I'd probably take it a bit personally and try to justify my play, too.

Trust me, people failing to learn and improve really, really, really frustrates me, too, but aggro isn't the way to enact change. It just fucks things up for everyone. Please take a few breaths, step away, and think through having more repose here.

[Varsoon]

Multiball is bad on all sides of the equation. It's usually so heavily prone to swing that it's baffling this game actually came down to a 3P lylo.
Nevermind how it turns scumhunting rhetoric on it's head.
Man, I hate Multiball.

[Varsoon]

@Nancy: Please stop making this personal. If Cerb's posts lack morality, let them stand as a testament to that on their own, but don't get wrapped up in making value/character judgments like that, please.

Same goes to Cerb.

[Varsoon]

Flavor, c'mon, you can tone down the bluffin'

[Varsoon]

I know you're on that trip but I think you got by here by the skin of your teeth

[Varsoon]

Yeah man I need you in my life.

[Varsoon]

<3
I think there is something to be said for re-assessing "why did I make it to lylo? Why was I left alive" but also yeah that's a huge WIFOM pit that could lead you astray.

It's easy for us to say "Oh! you should've taken more time!" because we understand the circumstances from our PoV and not yours.

I agree, if anything, this game has taught me to doubt way more in closed setups.

[Varsoon]

It was pretty obvious, from dead thread, that FL posted a ton to flood out Amz on daystart and position to vote/hammer either player.
The second he saw some doubt from DrewVa, he pounced in a way that DrewVa would have an easy time following.
That much was intentional. Yes, it was easy for US to see through, but maybe not so much for them.
/shrugs.
I'm fine with how the game shook out, though I wish everyone, myself included, had dropped better game.

[Varsoon]

I still haven't read everything did FL make a gambit on buj or did he somehow have a result on buj?

They were on the same side all along
GAMBITS
BIG GAMBITS

[Varsoon]

Also I need some fucking MS game to join and apparently mods have gone missing

Sorry, man, my last one crashed and burned so hard that I've been licking my wounds and slowly building to confidence (and free time) to put together something on the level.

Expect some really great games from me eventually.

[Varsoon]

Shit bud then I guess I gotta pinch this loaf of a setup out really fast, huh?

[Varsoon]

I'm gonna lose sleep making it but, heck, for you people
Some of my favorite people on the internet
I will do it.