Starcraft Mafia: Legacy of the Void [Game Over]

[Cerberus v666]

Yo. Why so shitposty everyone? Like, even though I hate RVS, you guys didn't even really bother with that and just said 97% nonsense.

[Cerberus v666]

Shiro, ND, other people who know me: is this a voting game? Like, a game where I should actually vote D1? :p

And ya Shiro! My gf found me one on discord, and it's so adorable I had to share it.

I ALSO HAVE A TITLE NOW!

ANYWAYS.

FL: Yeah, it's basically what you said. Those first 5 pages are ones where, if I were to do a PBP analysis of any of the slots, I'd just ignore because I don't see anything except that they're willing to shitpost with one another, which isn't AI.

[Cerberus v666]

I almost feel ignored by cerb but looking at the post count I can see how I might have been drowned out to him.

On my earlier read today I saw you had responded to my post, but did forget about it by the time I responded now.

You're welcome to explain the shadowless thing in a way that resonates with me, knowing as you should that gut reads don't actually sway me in any way?

[Cerberus v666]

Heyo everyone

Hi Shadow!

Yo Ved! Nice to see someone i know here. Anyone I should keep a look out?

Im sad i missed day start, i cant find scum page 1 again

@Vedith: What's the history between you and shadowless that led to the second half of the above post?

@Alchemist: I see the LAMIST point.

Tone reads are pretty much gut as far as I'm concerned unless you can better articulate it...and usually that requires counterpoints, like "heres a time they, as town(or even someone else, aa town) said something similar, and it comes across aa townie, while this comes across as scummy because of differences x y z.

[Cerberus v666]

@Vedith: What's the history between you and shadowless that led to the second half of the above post?

Uhh I don't know I played 1 game with him.
I'm just famous.

Hmm. So either their impact in that one game wasn't as noticed by you as they expected it to be, or it was an independent reference to a game you weren't involved in.
@shadow: which is it?

[Cerberus v666]

I solve through shitposting. Cerb scum btw.

Why?

Liking RCE and Alchemist.

~BC

Ehh don't feel as strongly about it with the way that FL framed it. So I understand Cerb as a mechanical player and this would only be my second game with him but here it seems like it was just a weak attempt to break up the social play and have those slots change tempo.

Compared to his RR early game in OK2 where he actually used RVS to analyze and force the game to his strengths. He isn't bringing the game to him in the same way.

It was so weak that it makes me think traitor with 1 scum in the block that was forming or scum with a partner in the block that was forming.

I'm quite impressed that with your one game of experience with me you've managed to perfectly determine what is and isn't normal play for me, while simultaneously attributing to me a line of play that indicates I would be concerned about shitposting, and try to break up said shitposting through means that are *outside* of my normal play.

....


/s, if necessary.

Generally speaking, I find FL's vote swap extremely suspect. A VC shows up, with two people at 3/3, and the momentum HUGELY shifts within like 6 posts to being 5:2? That...that's the sort of thing I deliberately set up by making vote counts tied, just to see who blinks and tries to push momentum somewhere.

@Liger: In that last game A50 was slotted as town by me, at least, because of his D1 play, and because the role felt....a bit unwieldy for scum to have to deal with in that game. His blowup actually felt super out of character to me.

@Shadowless: How could you possibly think that days were only three "RL" days long here? :-/ And if you did think that, and thus thought that things were that fast paced, why would a claim at l-4 be reasonable when in a game as fast paced as that, momentum could easily move elsewhere?

-Cerb

[Cerberus v666]

I see Chennis as always mislynch bait, and while seeing him that way, I’ve called him out correctly as town in every game I’ve been in with him.

I’m not at that point yet, but I’m not against it yet eithe

At the point where hes taken too long to become town to you, so you're okay with lynching him, or at the point where he's not town yet, but you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until you figure him out?

[Cerberus v666]

@liger: I feel you on the...listlessness of things today. I'm definitely not helping, but I'm also not feeling particularly inspired by the things that have been posted lately. Well. It's a bit better the last few posts, but yeah. I'm very adrift in the game right now, and have basically no idea where I actually want to focus my attention, or even if I want to focus my attention on this at all right now.

Help?

[Cerberus v666]

More votes on this ^

Nah you are the scum here tryin got go for the easy target

You are not helping yourself by self labeling yourself as an easy target.

I also am scum reading alchemist.

Anyone else scum reading alchemist?

No, not really.

I mean, I am lurking to the maximum degree. Can't deny the truth

Shiro, please give me your synopsis on what has happened this day phase so far.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm incredibly demotivated right now.

I'm following along, but I'm not grokking anything, or even really putting the effort in to understand. I don't even know why I'm posting this, just sorta feels like something you should all be aware of and maybe someone can help?

[Cerberus v666]

I definitely known what you mean. Usually when I get like that I have to either see something I passionately scumread or get into an intense debate.

That said Cerb is scum.

<3

Is this an attempt to get me to intensely debate something?

Because unfortunately I don't think it would work since I feel like literally everyone who knows me should be scumreading me right now, given that I'm like...so far out of my EVERY GAME range, that I could see scumminess being assumed.

[Cerberus v666]

Can I get a quick recap of what actual effects the movement/player list order had in the previous games?

Not how it worked...but like, what it enabled. Was it like people could only target within a certain range or something? What things interacted with it?

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah some roles could target players next to them in the order. One role could shoot down my interceptors that carried out my nightkill if I had to pass over them to get to my target.

Okay. And initial position in the order mattered how?

[Cerberus v666]

I think Cerb’s town too, though.

I’m not sold on Chennis yet, which is weird, because I usually am, so that and the fact they are the bottom of the Player Order, I’d be okay going Chennis.

Liger’s done nothing to make me change my mind on him, unless I missed some big thing. I haven’t caught up in depth, just quick skim.

If initial position didn't matter historically, why does Chennis being at the bottom matter right now FL?

[Cerberus v666]

I'm trying to figure out why FL bothered mentioning that, obviously.

[Cerberus v666]

@whoever said something about why I wasn't asking good mech questions that I meant to respond to yesterday:

I asked good mech questions on D1 of anime upick, that were based on something other than the publicly known(channels/drop/whatever people were dumb enough to claim D1) mechanics?

I find that very unlikely.

If you're talking about late in the game, sure. That's where mechanical play shines. You have enough information to gauge the likelihood that things work together in a certain way, and to put together plans to get the winrate up to 100% with some strong reads based on flips and interactions.

@A50: Do you see the concern I have about FL? With regards to the wagon swinginess? Is something like that too blatant a move for scum!FL to make?

[Cerberus v666]

What do you mean my wagon swinginess?

I’ve literally only pushed Liger and Shadow this game.

1)(to answer your other post) SK is not the same as groupscum, though I do understand that you had extra information in that game that allowed you to plot with groupscum. I've also been operation at like 5% of my normal mafia acumen since before that game, so I honestly can't recall what about your play that game really...earmarked it as scum.
2)I need to look back to see who it was, but someone was brought up to 3 votes with someone else(not liger or shadow, I don't think?) and you didn't *push* the wagon, but you did swap from one of the 3 wagons to the other 3 wagon, making it 4, and it was basically a huge momentum shift that happened where instead of the wagons being 3:3 they were like 6:2. That is, as I said, the sort of thing that I try to prompt when I do actually use my vote, to see where people are moving momentum to/from.

Makes sense?

[Cerberus v666]

Before I’ve easily been able to identify town mislynch bait Chennis.

Easily identify? Last time you said this I don't think you set a time for when you expected to be able to identify them.

Historically, when were you able to confidently identify town!mislynchbait Chennis?

-Cerb

[Cerberus v666]

We’ve actually only ever played in games from the beginning together as T/T, so if something feels vastly different, I think it’s okay for me to assume something’s up, especially nice din with how the current wagons are

Noted.

How comfortable are you with dying tonight/tomorrow if you're wrong, because I hold you to a fairly high standard?

[Cerberus v666]

I'm fairly annoyed by the lack of VC's between post 200 and 400. Chennisden says "All these wagons suck", but I don't know what the actual wagons he's referring to are. If it's the same wagons as when he agreed with FL that both wagons were on scum, then I feel that progression demands a lot more explanation than has been shared here so far.

[Cerberus v666]

None of these wagons are any good

If this is what you were referring to Cerb the wagons were shadow/Liger/Chenn

Chen was on Liger at the time and shadow lost steam from his claim.

So that was the same wagons that he said were likely s/s. Shadow *sorta* makes sense given the discussion about the ability to resolve the bp claim,but the liger progression doesn't.

@Chenn: What prompted you to decide that liger was no longer a good wagon?

[Cerberus v666]

None of these wagons are any good

If this is what you were referring to Cerb the wagons were shadow/Liger/Chenn

Chen was on Liger at the time and shadow lost steam from his claim.

So that was the same wagons that he said were likely s/s. Shadow *sorta* makes sense given the discussion about the ability to resolve the bp claim,but the liger progression doesn't.

@Chenn: What prompted you to decide that liger was no longer a good wagon?

VOTE: Chennisden

An answer is required!

[Cerberus v666]

None of these wagons are any good

If this is what you were referring to Cerb the wagons were shadow/Liger/Chenn

Chen was on Liger at the time and shadow lost steam from his claim.

So that was the same wagons that he said were likely s/s. Shadow *sorta* makes sense given the discussion about the ability to resolve the bp claim,but the liger progression doesn't.

@Chenn: What prompted you to decide that liger was no longer a good wagon?

VOTE: Chennisden

An answer is required!

Because Liger no longer seemed scummy? What do you expect me to say?

Why? Point to specific posts. Tell me x,y,z seemed to come from town for a,b,c, reasons.

@Buttercup: explain the chennis unvote on a post about why you think shiro is town.

@A50: Chennis wagon isn't meta based, it's play this game based. Why aren't you there?

[Cerberus v666]

Mm. I don't get that from Wisdoms posting? How is he scumreading chennis?

[Cerberus v666]

Are you scumreading Chennis wisdom?

[Cerberus v666]

Please don't hammer before Cerb realizes I voted Chenn before he did. It's imperative he does this today or it will be stamped in his mind that I wasn't on the wagon.

O.o?

I'm confused by this. Explain?

[Cerberus v666]

Let chennisden claim first

Surely you can make deadline

There are three of you

I agree with this, however, I do have to ask:

Is there a claim that chennisden could make which would move them from "yeah whatever I won't fight this" to "NO NO NO THEY'RE FUCKING TOWN LEAVE THEM THE FUCK ALONE"?

Don't say what that claim is, of course....I"m just curious if such a claim exists in your universe.

[Cerberus v666]

Any interested in an alchemist flashwagon?

idk, lemme iso?

[Cerberus v666]

Any interested in an alchemist flashwagon?

idk, lemme iso?

though tbf inmy experience EOD1 flashwagons have had a much higher than rand chance of hitting scum. Purely anecdotal ofc.

[Cerberus v666]

Please don't hammer before Cerb realizes I voted Chenn before he did. It's imperative he does this today or it will be stamped in his mind that I wasn't on the wagon.

O.o?

I'm confused by this. Explain?

Well, I don't understand your confusion, so I'm going to try to cover all possibilities.

If you're asking why I think you're not aware where my vote is then it's because of this:

@A50: Chennis wagon isn't meta based, it's play this game based. Why aren't you there?

If you're asking why I need you to know where I stand, it's because I don't want you rethinking your read on me later on the game when it matters most. It's best to have you confident enough in my alignment now that I won't be a likely mislynch later on when paranoia hits (if I live that long)

In short, if you want to lynch me let's do it today or tomorrow at the very latest. If not then let scum finish me off but do not mislynch me in LyLo or the day before.

Was the VC i was looking at before to determine that you weren't on Chennis wrong then? >< My confusion came from looking at the most recent VC and seeing you were clearly there on the wagon before me, so I was confused by why you'd think I wouldn't realize that.

Why are you so concerned about my read on your slot? I mean, I have a pretty good record at nailing you as town when you are, though I do also have a record of being wishy-washy and not trusting myself later on and...yeah. Alright. I see your concern.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't mind soft claiming to save Chen. I am the even night variant of his role hence I believe them to be town.

its pretty common to have a town odd night and scum even night of something though (or vice versa)

why do you think that makes him town

Yeah. I was just about to say that should actually make you think him more, not less, likely to be scum? ><

[Cerberus v666]

Scum could have also done whatever that thing is that makes someone investigate as guilty, since it was announced that wisdom would be checked last night...but still weird as fuck that the two investigations don't match up.

What, exactly, did you check for liger? I don't think we can be coy about this, because this is a path that can lead to like 3 consecutive mislynches if scum fucked with just one of your guys results and you're all town.

[Cerberus v666]

Eh. Easiest resolution is lynching the pseudo-guilty that's also a slot that did questionable things in their claim.

Town flip, we lynch alchemist tomorrow barring a gf flip.
Scum flip, we lynch liger tomorrow barring some explanation I can't imagine right now.
VOTE: Wisdom

-Cerb

[Cerberus v666]

Eh. Easiest resolution is lynching the pseudo-guilty that's also a slot that did questionable things in their claim.

Town flip, we lynch alchemist tomorrow barring a gf flip.
Scum flip, we lynch liger tomorrow barring some explanation I can't imagine right now.
VOTE: Wisdom

-Cerb

You’ve got your gf and some other explanation clauses mixed up.

Right. >< Sorry. Point still stands.

[Cerberus v666]

I am getting cold feet on Cerb. His vote on you is fishy as fuck. He generally analysis situation and the like. This instant, yea I guess lynch this is off putting.

Volxen still has a good chance of being scum.

I mean. I did analyze the situation? There's very few explanations for this scenario. Getting a wisdom flip identifies which situation we're in.

[Cerberus v666]

@A50: a bus driver was only an option if the swapped slots were wisdom and a vig. You're right that I should have specifically considered that as well, but it was exactly as likely as any of the other scum roles(lawyer or modified framer) that would have caused the conflicting results. The end result, that there was a way to manipulate either liger or alchemists results, was the same in all cases.

Alchemist21 obviously wasn't shot because of moongrasses claim. Why moongrass wasn't shot I have no fucking clue, but if he lives past N4 he should be revisited, don't even think about lynching till then as scum likely have to sort him for us at some point.

FL shot is similar to alch not getting shot? Nk protection fear perhaps?

Assumptions we can work with today:
alchemist21 is town, unless urap2 flips as scum at some point(only way alchemist21 as scum bussing wisdom and giving us a clear really works is if it's a fake clear in a target rich field)
A50 is town
Urap2 is town

2-3 scum in the pool below(leaning towards 3; 1x split commuter, 2x masons, 1x investigative joat, 1x vig(because gunsmith+cop joat, with masons, is only really plausible in a game where fale guilties are possible, and a miller mason does not count as enough of a false guilty imo, as it's self balancing in a way; that set of prs versus a team with a goon calls for more members; an sk variant, such as arsonist, is also an option in place of the larger scum team,(note the game guarantees there are no straight sks here), and yes, a lyncher with a town target could also work to explain the balance/goon on the scum team)

Liger_Zero
Shiro
popsofctown
RCEnigma
Iconeum
Volxen MJL Combo Pack
Moongrass
Hydra TBD

I'll be figuring these out, starting with liger, asap. Been very overgamed prior to this, so no in depth thoughts yet, but liger has definitely been the most "solvey" imo, and without yesterdays events would be probtown. Actually, in light of those I don't really get why alchemist21 wouldn't have copped him? Mmm nm, bus driver +vig swap explains results, therefore a vig could have been reasonably expected to shoot liger last night, therefore bad check. Okay. Follows. If we're in that universe, weird that the likely vig didn't shoot him though.

Shiro is a black box. Tunnel while being ignored is standard any!shiro play. Liger lynch *possibly* resolves? Need to consider more.

And my time to solve just ran out. Will revisit...tomorrow?

[Cerberus v666]

Oh right, i noticed movement happened in the player order between D1 and D2. Have not checked today yet. If someone could compile what happened it could be helpful.

[Cerberus v666]

To whoever it was who found my post underwhelming: No fucking shit, I say in the past that I ran out of time for solving, NOT that I was done with what I had to contribute. I know many of you like to try to solve games based on whether someone gives you butterflies or not, but I prefer just a smidge more substance behind the conclusions I arrive at, and getting to that substance requires a measured, logical process.

With that said, I'll be working for the next 8 hours, dnding for the 4 after that, but I'll try to work my way down the playerlist as I had started during this time.

[Cerberus v666]

If I am wrong on Iconeum. Its Hydra TBD.

Other one would be Cerberus.

I think I have made my peace, let me know when you guys want to end the day.

Intent to hammer.

2 hours(4 p.m. MST), if there's more conversation that needs to happen, let me know so I can hold off on it.

Are you saying you want someone to threaten the hammer before you claim?

He kinda already scoffed at the idea of claiming, which I read as basically saying that obviously he's a VT because he fake claimed cop and what sort of other PR would fake claim cop(other than a PGO, maybe, but then that's asking a protective to get killed when they try to save you).

[Cerberus v666]

He kinda already scoffed at the idea of claiming, which I read as basically saying that obviously he's a VT because he fake claimed cop and what sort of other PR would fake claim cop

This

Liger, please repeat if you haven't already: Guaranteed town to you, outside of the mechanical clears? Scum reads are Icon>Me=Hydra TBD? Is that correct?

[Cerberus v666]

I actually have no idea how to read shiro, after having played many games with him...so yeah. :-/

@pop: was that a request for me to wait on hammering until you finish ISOING?

[Cerberus v666]

I actually think we should still lynch me today, as Alchemist and Almost was saying that having me continue to be around the topic of me faking cop to save a buddy will continue to resurface unless we just quash that now so it won't bog down the game later.

I want to talk to Iconeum some more before we do that though.

This is a sentiment that I agree with(that the noise surrounding this singular event could easily grown to dominate the entire game, and thus it needs to be resolved in some fashion sooner rather than later).

In unrelated news, moongrass is also like 90% town, because in my opinion their claim is certainly true, the only question is the alignment of their claimed role...and a scum moongrass along with a flipped town counterpart would have meant scum could have freely shot alchemist21 last night with little concern about protection existing on them. Since they did not shoot there, but instead at someone who was unlikely to be protected due to their miller claim, indicates to me that there was concern about moongrass protecting their preferred target.

With that said, a small amount of doubt exists because scum!moongrass could have easily gotten away with commuting alchemist21 and thereby preventing any possible investigations under the guise of protecting them, but I don't believe moongrass' position in the game has been threatened enough/they have been under sufficient suspicion that scum!moongrass would wish to draw that scrutiny in their direction.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm beginning to regret not hammering Liger when the opportunity presented itself; it's looking more and more like I'll have to find the time to finish my analysis. *sigh*(Just to clarify, the main problem with the analysis thing right now is the fact that I can't ISO etc and take notes etc from bed, and with my current back problems spending my evenings *largely* in bed is the best option after I spend an entire day sitting at a desk at work, so it's making it a bit hard to get these things done.)

Icon/Urap/liger/volxen: Why are any of you town? Can any of you point me to any single point that will help me sort you?

[Cerberus v666]

Icon/Urap/liger/volxen: Why are any of you town?

well alch has an inno on me, so I've got that going for me ;P

lol, yes, urap should be pop! <3

[Cerberus v666]

Alright, today is simple enough at work. Gonna be effective here!

I don't think anyone actually responded to my earlier inquiry as to why any of them(that is, the people who have been the top lynch candidates) were likely town. Just asked for a single *thing* that could be tanglibly pointed to as "Yeah, this makes sense, they're probably town", preferably on the same level as my reasoning for why moongrass is likely town.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: popsofctown

My first lolhammer!!!

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb doiesnt lolhammer

he is probably scum with Liger

Vote:Liger

Now for fucks sake can we lynch scum?

True.

You know it.

I know it.

I know you know it.

Why does scum!me ever do that?

Cerb doiesnt lolhammer he is probably scum with Liger

Vote:Liger

Now for fucks sake can we lynch scum?

Why vote for Liger then? Yes, there is still the issue of his fakeclaim, but Cerb's quickhammer is even worse than that.

- Volxen

Cerb doiesnt lolhammer he is probably scum with Liger

Vote:Liger

Now for fucks sake can we lynch scum?

So why aren't you voting CERB then?

Valid questions above.

Basically I think Cerb was frustrated with how long yesterday was going because he was scum so he quickhammered but the ideal of that being scum action in of itself is one I am not sure about. We didn't have much time but Cerberus said he regrets about not hammering me and the reasoning behind that I think tells me he is more likely scum. I don't think town him would think its better to do quicker lynches and he seemed to be a proponent for reasons I don't think are true or are misleading.

Long days are actually pretty good for me as either alignment; lots of time for town to get bored and demotivated when I'm scum, lots of time to analyze things as town.

I'd like more elaboration on this rather elaborate "the quickhammer wasn't scum indicative but actually it was" thing.

[Cerberus v666]

Mwhahahaha!!!


VOTE: Cerb[/|vote]

Spoiler: YOU'VE TRIGGERED MY TRAP CARD!!

Krazy note -- I broke Cerb's tags here deliberately so that the scrubber does something I want it to do, but this vote still counts

[Cerberus v666]

At least we get a scum lynch.

Tomorrow I want to examine Hydra TBD. They would be my number one suspect of bussing in this situation.

But...do you?

Do you really?

Do you think I ever...ever...EVER...let myself be lynched like this if it didn't hurt you more than us????

[Cerberus v666]

I'm a little disappointed in you liger. So little imagination.

[Cerberus v666]

You can ask anyone who knows me how likely it is that I haven't been intimately involved in every moment of this.

You'll see.

[Cerberus v666]

I really was thinking of quitting this game as well. That role is really really horrible.
Not only do we not get to lynch a scum, we got punished basically for lynching him.

Cerb still has a vote. Had us waste a lynch, and can play around all day just throwing around stuff to throw us around.

I think the play is to completely ignore him including what he votes because nothing he says is going to really help us with regards to what he does.

I did tell you that you weren't being imaginative enough, and that I never play the way I have in this game as scum...so obviously something was up.

Really, I'm just disappointed in all of you who should have realized this, it was an easy wasted lynch to avoid.

*yawns* Good for my team though.

Don't mind me. I'll be here...always...just...waiting.

VOTE: Cerberus v666

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb, is Volxen scum with you?

In a way, everyone is scum with me now.

You can't stop me.

I am inevitable...

[Cerberus v666]

In case anyone was wondering, I'm a VT.

A little offended you all forgot about me.

[Cerberus v666]

I wonder if since Cerb is Over Powered that the rest of the scum team would then be goons?

I mean, I think I'm pretty balanced, in a void.

Unkillable, conditionally, but also don't count as someone town needs to lynch.

Best case scenario I make town waste a lynch on me, and then get to keep voting with my team and killing for them.

Worst case scenario town lynches me last and I'm never shot at, and I am effectively a goon with NU.

*shrug*

Any OP'ness of me comes entirely from people not thinking critically about what was going on...and lots of you have played with me and should have been able to recognize something was off. A quick lynch on me should *never* have happened.

For shame town. For shame.

<3

Hey A50, let's talk, conftown to confscum(speaking of which, good job on crumbing/claiming mason stuff, if you hadn't I would have had to consider counterclaiming you and seeing if I could get town to mislynch a mason WOULD HAVE BEEN HILARIOUS), I think it'll be fun. Maybe we can put together an epic battle between whoever you end up claiming as and whoever I end up fake claiming as. <3

[Cerberus v666]

I mean, I think I'm pretty balanced, in a void.

Unkillable, conditionally, but also don't count as someone town needs to lynch.

Best case scenario I make town waste a lynch on me, and then get to keep voting with my team and killing for them.

Worst case scenario town lynches me last and I'm never shot at, and I am effectively a goon with NU.

*shrug*

Any OP'ness of me comes entirely from people not thinking critically about what was going on...and lots of you have played with me and should have been able to recognize something was off. A quick lynch on me should *never* have happened.

For shame town. For shame.

In case it wasn't clear, that's the universe we're in.

The one you gifted to me.

So I should probably just thank you, instead of making fun of you.

[Cerberus v666]

How do you all go hours with just 4 posts to page 100

Dead game, obviously.

I killed it.

Complete demoralization! Ultimate gridlock achieved!

[Cerberus v666]

You know, being open scum when you want to be lazy is really hard. Like, I'm sitting here weighing my every interaction with everyone, trying to decide if I want to try to frame someone, if I'd rather clear my teammates, or hell, do the opposite and just like hard claim my team and laugh because nobody will believe me, but...I'M JUST TOO DAMN LAZY to actually read up on all you people to figure out how to properly manipulate each of you.

><

Best role ever, and it comes at a time in my mafia career when I'm fucking over it.

[Cerberus v666]

Consider this: If scum left Moon alive, we could skip the day by lynching Cerberus to block him. Moon gets to roleblock one person and assuming he is wrong that clears one extra player from being scum. If he roleblocked successfully, which I think scum also feared not just another inno, then the game is over.

The game is basically over and scum are hoping that Almost pushes Shiro for a lynch. That is basically their only hope right now.

Mechanically it would have been better to just let moongrass do his thing, no kill that night, and let the fake guilty+moongrass wifom carry us to endgame.

Nice try though. <3

[Cerberus v666]

Well, probable fake guilty, given that there are more town than scum. He might have got it right though!

[Cerberus v666]

I don't lie about mechanics yo. *shrug*

7 alive. You lynch me today to block me, my team holsters, moon has like an 75% chance of getting a fake guilty, ez mislynch. The math works out!

[Cerberus v666]

You have done a terrible job WIFOMing and misleading the town. F-

Haven't tried to. I'm only commenting here because the logic used holds true no matter who else is on my team, so it's basically useless mech talk that is only happening because I can't resist correcting people who are wrong about mechanical choices.

Anyways. Back procedure time, wish me luck all. <3

[Cerberus v666]

GG yo.

Fun role, kinda sad that it's like...specifically one whose utilization flies in the face of my strengths as scum. Usually pretty confident in being able to solo end game if necessary, so having to rely on the team to endgame while knowing that my best mechanical utility was being lynched...was hard.

I wasn't lying about the moongrass thing, objectively speaking that's almost certainly what we should have done, but I didn't think town would actually consider lynching me again to try to turn moongrass into a cop, so I didn't even consider that line since it relies on town making that choice. I *should*, however, have been less concerned with moongrass than I was before, once I realized he was just a blocker, and didnt have any protective aspects. Given that he had already went after Volxen, it was very unlikely he'd do so again, just...because people don't like doing that, so he was essentially not a threat as far as guiltying them was concerned.

[Cerberus v666]

Subject: Legacy of the Void -- Dead PT

it's angleshooting and technically bad faith but it's not against the rules so I'd suggest we just sit here and sneer at them for it

it's also correct lmao

That's the thing: he doesn't know that he's right. He could be wrong as far as he knows. And yeah, he could be because it's not an accurate thing. But since we know he's right, it looks uncool, but I think it's cool.

So on the topic of Liger_Zero's login time check thing:

1) Yeah, pretty shitty thing to do and I am going to sneer at him for it.
2) We only talked in the discord, and Volxen posted our night actions, so any reason they had for checking the game during the night was not related to their alignment. *shrug*

Re: My role: As I said, it was fairly balanced, and moderately swingy.

Scum had a decent bit of luck with the kill targets preventing the vigs, but the vigs could easily have been aimed at town, making the main benefit of them the clear that RCE could have received.

Some degree of redirection should have been included in the scum team, and/or the gunsmith should have only triggered on bullet killing powers, so...only triggers on those that RCE has vended, or RCE himself. Masons+2x cop+gun vendor that's *VERY* difficult to argue is scum...is a lot of clears for town to have mechanically, without any actual means of defending against any of them except a one shot godfather.

Overall though, in spite of these balance questions, the game was almost wholly via dayplay, and large D1 play at that. The guilties came at the slots they did because our teams D1 was pretty atrocious. I love you guys, and don't mean to offend, but it was just low activity from half the team, which never really got better, a "suspect" slip from another member that wisdom did his best to handle, but is hard to fix, and me...trying to be so far out of my town range that I could guarantee getting lynched whenever I wanted, while also being terrible at controlling associatives etc, because I never plan to die as scum, unless it's as the last lynch.

We could have done better at ensuring liger was lynched, but given pops role I think that's excusable...though volxen was pretty adamant that if we didn't get the liger lynch that day, it wouldn't be happening, and they were right.

Not really sure what else we could have done the last two day phases though(other than my stated moongrass NK line) for day play to redeem the hydra and volxen slots.

[Cerberus v666]

tbf

the fakeclaim thing was my idea in the first place, I think you were going to give full fakeclaims until I suggested flavor fakeclaims

What did I fake claim?

I’m happy our early townblock was accurate. I really felt like it was.

Your early townblock was literally "people who are posting", which included me.

So, that all comes back to the teams general lack of thread presence.

[Cerberus v666]

Ehh, Alchemist had a scum immune to GS check (Hydra, before promotion), a scum with one-shot immune to cop check (Volxen), a town miller (Boon), a town gunsmith miller (A50), and someone who turns literally anyone into gunsmith millers day 3 (RCE). There was also a risk of town utilities working against each other if RCE had checked the alienized target n1 (which was impossible in this iteration since you guys lynched Zeratul), or if the Even night RB had hit him.

I think if I added a scum roleblock shot I would have needed to make Amon not immune to lynch in lylo/mylo or something

The other question is whether the VT count or Vorazun (even night roleblocker) could have changed, as those were some of the late adjustments in the design process (I added Vorazun because mastina was worried Cerb's role was too strong, and then added two more vts to give the setup a bit more stability. I think both were good calls.) I do think this game ended up being pretty close toward the mid section so I don't think the setup was particularly townsided. I think your suicidal lynch would have been a lot better on a stronger power role, and you might have been better off holding. Lynching pops --> committing to fast bus I think overall was not strategically optimal. I also think the fakeclaims needed a bit more work.

I'm inclined to say there's a strong correlation to there being no mod-provided fakeclaims and this being the first scum loss in the Starcraft series. This game does reinforce my sense that my mod-provided fakeclaims are a bit too strong, although I guess partly I'm trying to encourage scum to get more aggressive in shaping their own fakeclaims. I'll have to keep thinking about how I set that up.

That being said town did have a lot of power. It very nearly was a sweep the night that Moon changed his block from Hydra to Volxen. If he'd stayed on Hydra, then Nero ends up with a dayvig shot and scum don't get that kill off. But to be honest, before the pops lynch and the bus, I thought scum had this game.

The way the bus on my slot was handled was suboptimal, yes, though I think any position of pushing my slot by volxen would have been viewed as scummy by the only person who seemed to care about that, liger, given they had a pretty severe tunnel on that slot for a good portion of the game.

It may have been optimal for me to fight the lynch really hard and try to direct it towards one of my teammates(hydra, for example), while having both volxen and hydra stay off my wagon. I don't think there was any real good town options to push a mislynch on organically, except perhaps liger, on that day at least.

With regards to the investigative/clears: gunsmith immune scum is fine, sure; miller/gunsmith miller were meaningless because they were also masons; one shot godfather is super weak and probably has even less of an effect on balance here than the mason millers did; RCE never made anyone a gunsmith miller until D3 at the earliest, when the JOAT would obviously have used both their investigatives by that point, so...also not relevant for practical balance purposes.

tbf

the fakeclaim thing was my idea in the first place, I think you were going to give full fakeclaims until I suggested flavor fakeclaims

Scum should *always* have mod provided full fake claims in theme games. Shame on you Ank. Like seriously, it's too easy/dumb for people to get caught because they have purely unsafe claims(like in this case, a mod provided claim that directly overlapped with an existing town role...one that was likely to become confirmed as town via mechanically catching scum).

[Cerberus v666]

So on the topic of Liger_Zero's login time check thing:1) Yeah, pretty shitty thing to do and I am going to sneer at him for it.2) We only talked in the discord, and Volxen posted our night actions, so any reason they had for checking the game during the night was not related to their alignment. *shrug*

Right for the wrong reasons. I will take it.

It wasn't even the wrong reason? It was like, literal air. Right for the wrong reasons would have been if it was an actual reason to think something, but it isn't.

[Cerberus v666]

Not really. When people log on they usually post somewhere. The hydra would come online and do nothing even though he had a total of 30 posts in the game. Simple posts like "I am catching up" would have alleviated that but I don't think that was "hot air", I was just wrong he was posting in the scum PT.

Do you really think the hydra would just come online at several crucial times and just not post if that was a town!slot?

Yes?

I mean.

People read games without posting all the time.

*shrug*

Perhaps you expect too much of people. I've come to learn that people are lazy and bad at mafia, and that lurking is pretty much 90% of every game.

[Cerberus v666]

Not a hydra. You log onto your hydra to post. Not read games.

NO no no. People log into their hydra to READ THE GAME THEIR HYDRA IS IN.

I mean, literally don't have any way to access my hydra games on my main because I never bookmark anything, and if I have to navigate through the site to find the game I'm just not going to do it.

[Cerberus v666]

Never seen anyone do that.

In your set of N=1, that is, you? Since....I mean, why would you have intimate knowledge of how anyone else navigates the website to read hydra games?

[Cerberus v666]

Never seen anyone do that.

In your set of N=1, that is, you? Since....I mean, why would you have intimate knowledge of how anyone else navigates the website to read hydra games?

I seen hydras from other sites. I figured people use them about the same as anyone. Its a secondary account. Why would you log onto it for any other purposes then to be playing your game its in. Which Hydra was specifically not doing by posting. Which told me he was online for other purposes then playing the game. And since the hydra was in 0 other games. I thought, yeah that's scum.

Hydra was scum for other reasons. This just pushed me over the line from "leaning scum" to "definitely scum"

I get that point...but for some reason you're differentiating between "playing the game" and "reading the game".

The night login thing was silly, and I don't even care about, because they could just as easily have been reading the game to catch up as posting in a scum PT...so that whole tell is just really dumb, and easily defended against.

The idea that someone can only ever log into their hydra account to post in a game, and not even log in to just read, though? That's just wrong. Like, so wrong.

pedit: Not upset, you're just objectively wrong about the assertion you're making, and I generally don't let people just...be wrong about things.

Reason why I brought up the whole moongrass kill/not kill reasoning thing.

[Cerberus v666]

Not a hydra. You log onto your hydra to post. Not read games.

eh I'd say people also sometimes log on to their hydra because they think *they might post* but sometimes they log on to the wrong account

I feel like there's players in this game that pretty regularly log onto their hydras to post to the wrong game and only catch themselves before they do so some of the time

Sure, but Hydra defense of my point was not townie either

A townie defense didn't exist, liger, because your point didn't exist.

Like, if a town slot had absolutely no idea why they showed up as logging in during the night(which hydra didn't??) they would have said the same thing.

[Cerberus v666]

Didn't know why they showed as logged in? What pipe are you smoking?

As in, they had no recollection of loggin in during the night. Read the scum discord when it is opened up, but yeah. They claimed ignorance to us too.

So yeah, that was a legit, actual, real defense, unless they were lying to their teammates.

So.

A townie defense of the circumstances in question did not exist.

No, I'm not claiming tha thydra was in any way townie, because they weren't.

I do think, however, that I might have to not play games with you because having to change the settings on your MS profile in order to not have to deal with baseless accusations...is really dumb. Dunno, but yeah. Kinda a stupid thing to have to concern yourself with.

[Cerberus v666]

@Liger: The context is irrelevant. The point is that you're placing lots of emphasis on activity, and it's dumb, and I personally find it distasteful, and feel that in order to play with you and not have to deal with this, given that my own regular habits would force me to deal with your accusations on this subject, I would have to change my settings, and I'll be damned if another person is allowed to exert influence like that over me. Same reason why I won't be avoiding games with you, but I will mock you and anyone else who listens to you on that subject endlessly in any game where it comes up.

Shadows claim was incredibly fumbled. I have no words really.

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerb: Why was I left alive? Not that I mind, but why kill FL and not me?

FL was killed for reasons wholly unrelated to the mason soft claim.

You were left alive because youhad shown willingness tk listen to volxen, as well as expressed a townread on them.

[Cerberus v666]

@Liger: I wouldn't, though I do active lurk all the time. I'm a compulsive refresher, and am basically always up to date in my games, but I'll choose to not post plenty of times(largely because I know I can absolute explode the post count of a game if I responded with all my thoughts as I read).

And it being unavoidable is even more distasteful.

[Cerberus v666]

this really doesn't seem any different than saying X has been posting elsewhere on the site but is actively avoiding the game. Doesn't seem out there or new, except for i guess the viewing of profile to see that the person has been online. I don't know if i have seen that before, but still in the same position as seeing a person has been posting elsewhere.

not seeing what is so wrong about that.

also shiro was town and i am shocked. shocked.

The thing is, fb, that when someone is posting *nowhere* that's actually used as an argument *against* activity questions, whereas in this case just checking login and assuming it means active lurking is both something that can't be defended against, and is easily completely meaningless.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, i get your point FB. I guess it just feels so egregious because it's based on something you can't actually control if you choose to login, and because other, similar pushes are based on an action taken, rather than the absence of any action, which you then attach meaning to.

Like, do we really want to oush people to never read their games unless they're prepared to make posts as well? Because that's what this does.

And just another point...I've definitely noted such things myself, and used it as another data point...but I've never used it as part of a case against someone. Bringing it to the thread is definitely ageist the spirit of the rules.

[Cerberus v666]

Also I was lying about having all the control during the game. I was running in two scum games,and had made the choice early on to be super lynchbait this game since ky role allowed it, so I wouldn't be overwhelmed. Volxen did most strategizing, with moderate commentary from myself and wisdom while he was alive. Hsd some good plans, but just didn't have enough in thread presence/charisma to get the pushes through.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, i get your point FB. I guess it just feels so egregious because it's based on something you can't actually control if you choose to login, and because other, similar pushes are based on an action taken, rather than the absence of any action, which you then attach meaning to.

Like, do we really want to oush people to never read their games unless they're prepared to make posts as well? Because that's what this does.

And just another point...I've definitely noted such things myself, and used it as another data point...but I've never used it as part of a case against someone. Bringing it to the thread is definitely ageist the spirit of the rules.

I mean the game isn't locked from you viewing it offline....and liger couldn't see offline reading.

Agreed. But this, again, requires a rather ridiculous departure from what is likely the normal behavior of people to...log into their account, to avoid this particular brand of angleshooting.

Not logging in means site navigation, which is just another barrier to play.

And then if you do run into something you want to reply to, now theres that delay between deciding to post and being able to post. Not a huge thing, but it can definitely mess with how organic your posting is as any alignment.

[Cerberus v666]

I basically ignored PPG, fyi.<3

Couldnt be bothered with checking which head was which ppg. And without that context and with three heada to track the ebb and flow of. It just wasn't worth.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra wasn't even on our team then.

Like, I was salivating at the easy mislynch.
Imagine my...well, I don't want to say dismay, but...dismay, to discover my easy mislynch was on my team.><

[Cerberus v666]

I've had traitors on my team twice now. And both time's they've made themselves incredibly easy lynches.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra wasn't even on our team then.

Like, I was salivating at the easy mislynch.
Imagine my...well, I don't want to say dismay, but...dismay, to discover my easy mislynch was on my team.><

Liger was right about it being your call to kill me. I didn’t see that. You were the only one I probably would have defended had it come down to it. Volxen i’d Have eventually given in and lynched

Yeah. As someone who was meant to be lynched, there was only downside potential from keeping you alive. :p

I mean, a case could have been made after you defended me and I flipped scum that you were scum, but by its very nature my role defeated any such poison pill maneuver.