Grand Idea uPick [Game Over]

[davesaz]

@TL how is NMSA scummy?

[davesaz]

We could get GE to L-2 or so, to make that easier.
1583 is super weak but I'll let it slide for now.

[davesaz]

I forgot just how weird games with this setup can be.
Jumping into it won't go as quickly as normal, and I do have a few RL things this weekend. Just setting expectations.
At least I'm spared the chore of correctly reading DEB and A50, that will make things much easier.

[davesaz]

I received a pm saying someone shot me.

Being informed of being shot at is not part of the role you claimed.

[davesaz]

we got the crumb we wanted, let's vote either hectic or davesaz

Are you thinking at all before you post? It seems to me that you're not.

[davesaz]

LOL

pisskop accidentally outed in the sliver chat. Gamma, pisskop asks why you targeted DEB, the friendly neighbor.

For my Desperado? I targeted him because he was what my gut was telling me to do. And like, why did he care?

You do know how the role works? You had a death wish? Or just didn't think at all?

[davesaz]

Read my posts from when I did it? Don't be dense on me ffs

Not a train of thought I'd ever entertain, but can't rule out you thinking that way.
Do you crumb and tell the mod what the crumb means? Or do you have to depend on the mod getting it?

[davesaz]

VOTE: TemporalLich
I was only going to bring this up after Hectic flipped, but since that's not happening... The only reason most of us didn't vote you was because Hectic claimed a meta clear on you.

I see plenty of "bad" in TL's ISO but I'd like to hear an explanation of how it's "scum".
I'm nowhere near done with reading in...

[davesaz]

@MOD: can the OP dead/alive lists be updated please?

[davesaz]

Not a train of thought I'd ever entertain, but can't rule out you thinking that way.
Do you crumb and tell the mod what the crumb means? Or do you have to depend on the mod getting it?

RTFF

There is an element to my question that the quoted post does not explain. I'm checking if Gamma can explain it. Thanks for interceding.

[davesaz]

Bold added by me.

~ Everyday, you may crumb an

ability

in the game thread and submit it to the mod. You will then receive that ability from the mod.

Something that I have paid a great deal of attention to in all the great/greater/greatest/grand games I've played in is the difference between ability and alignment. There is something wrong with Gamma's claimed plan...

I believe the action claimed by gobble combined with the flipped role was highly relevant.

Something

pierced a BP, and gobble's action didn't seem to have any effect. We're starting to get too many things "going wrong" to be accounted for by the claimed roles and it's bothering me.

[davesaz]

Saulus is an alignment, not an ability -- at least that's how it has always been defined in the past games alongside Judas which is also an alignment. The mod is, of course, allowed to apply judgment. It just sounds off. Of course dead is dead, so I'm not sure it matters to town's wincon.

Any thoughts on gobble trying to kill ofrhz and dying instead, despite being BP? Any thoughts on TL being so adamant that we have to lynch within the slivers?

BTW sliver achieving majority does not endgame other faction(s), in case anyone is concerned about that.

[davesaz]

Eh, maybe I'm thinking too hard and that applies to the "choose 2/3 cards discard the other" game where you can't use VT + Saulus to get town Saulus, you get Saulus vanilla instead...

[davesaz]

Still, every time I post something with two ideas, people reply to the lower importance part and ignore the higher importance.
I guess I should optimize less and just put them in two different posts.

Pedit: thanks for replying to part of the other half.

Still thinking about the gobble targets ofrhz thing. And unless Hectic is both BP and LP, there is likely an unclaimed protective. Too many loose ends.

[davesaz]

My shot did not go through and I received a pm saying someone shot me.

I shot Ofhrz.

[davesaz]

I agree, it doesn't seem possible/likely there is another cult. Plus even if there were more cult I think if multiple people draw cult they're in the same cult anyway.

[davesaz]

Cult that can't recruit are pretty much survivors, yes?

[davesaz]

ebwop lone cult

[davesaz]

VOTE: ofrhz

L-1

[davesaz]

Hectic, wanna tell us what post number you submitted?

I've thought TL was scum pretty much since I started reading.

[davesaz]

That requires one of Hectic or TL to be scum, possibly both.

How hard is the thread to search for 1-shot unlynchable 1-shot bp? Is it something Hectic would be able to find easily? Asking for the post number was a test of sorts.
Are there other alignment cards with the same role?

VOTE: TemporalLich
More likely IMO, and very possibly the last scum though I can't remember if we nailed down where all the missing kills went to.
Willing to lynch either one, as everyone else but Gamma is confirmed from my point of view.
(In Grand Idea I'm not sure confirmation is truly a thing of course, alignment changes being possible -- but occam...)

[davesaz]

That's some nice flail, but you're completely failing at logic.

[davesaz]

TL is just ignoring all logic in the mantra that he's town along with the conf. There is no attempt to problem solve there. He doesn't care who is scum as long as it isn't him, and that's a dead giveaway.

[davesaz]

If Hectic is town we don't need to. So we lynch you and see if game is over.

[davesaz]

Can't find a match for the dreaming god one as stated in the thread (there are several DG cards, one of which might warp into it if you squint really hard, but no direct matches). Don't see anything that could reasonably be interpreted as a DG effect -- town with that card should have done something visibly confirmable by now.

[davesaz]

Indigo goo card is mafia, ITA chief is 1 each mafia and town. And some of the dreaming god cards are mafia too. At least they're roles that can be searched.

[davesaz]

I can only tell you what NMSA's picks were if I ask the mod for them. Willing to do so but it won't tell you anything since I would make different choices anyway.
The actual role is Town Muscle Sliver, which was apparently already revealed, just confirming it.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Hectic

[davesaz]

@MOD: V/LA until Sunday afternoon UTC-7

[davesaz]

Well, there are 3 possibilities: (I know the 4th possibility of me being scum isn't true, ymmv)

• Gamma stayed cult somehow or maybe even chose Judas and switched to mafia? Bottom line, Gamma somehow ended up non-town...
  
• Friendly neighbor is just non-town neighborizer who had only neighborized town? I don't know if the neighborized people learn that the neighborizer was a friendly neighbor, haven't been targeted by such a role that I can remember.
  
• Rautherdir is the towniest looking scum ever.

I lean toward Gamma non-town but open to being convinced one of the other two.
Not sure on the middle one, the desperado perhaps rules out that possibility unless there is a loophole...
It being Grand Idea, I guess the thread has a plethora of other things that could cause this scenario but let's stick to high probability ones

[davesaz]

I pushed pretty hard on TL scum, two days running.
Any reason it's not just all remaining slivers are town and Gamma is the remaining non-town?

[davesaz]

Oh, that's an interesting twist theory. <thinking>

[davesaz]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[davesaz]

I also thought Gamma could still be cult.
Very confused with what DEB's role meant. Was the PM that was posted the final version post-shift or the original version?

[davesaz]

Well, there are 3 possibilities: (I know the 4th possibility of me being scum isn't true, ymmv)

• Gamma stayed cult somehow or maybe even chose Judas and switched to mafia? Bottom line, Gamma somehow ended up non-town...
  
• Friendly neighbor is just non-town neighborizer who had only neighborized town? I don't know if the neighborized people learn that the neighborizer was a friendly neighbor, haven't been targeted by such a role that I can remember.
  
• Rautherdir is the towniest looking scum ever.

I lean toward Gamma non-town but open to being convinced one of the other two.
Not sure on the middle one, the desperado perhaps rules out that possibility unless there is a loophole...
It being Grand Idea, I guess the thread has a plethora of other things that could cause this scenario but let's stick to high probability ones

Turns out #2 and #3 were both at least partly right. Who would guess?

[davesaz]

I'm not sure endgaming is the correct resolution TBH. Shouldn't that have been a night where slivers vote on who to kill / heal decided it?
The game state should have been
DEB - shifter, still town
Rautherdir - ww
Dave - town

How would a heal DEB, kill Rauth / Rauth kills Dave be resolved in this case? Don't know what the prism actually does.

[davesaz]

The mod told the Sliver thread that we needed to kill Gamma in order for slivers to win

wait hol up

Let's clarify that a bit. This was at the end when only 4 were left.
The sliver wincon was to completely dominate. We all interpreted that to mean be in the majority, but the mod corrected it to say we had to be the only ones alive to activate that wincon. We weren't explicitly told to kill Gamma, it just follows immediately from what we were told...

[davesaz]

Also fine with opening sliver PT.

[davesaz]

I very strongly felt if one of them was not Town it was Rauth, so in the end, I could've won Town the game, but that risked my win
I don't feel like I double-crossed you

Yes you did. I laid down a plan for you, dave and Gamma to follow. I said to lynch Rauth today. That would have still let you win, but you chose to backstab me and Gamma (I did a lot of solving and Gamma did a lot of action, and he could have chosen something different that could've won him the game but he stayed loyal.)

Next time don't send me the FN note cuz I won't acknowledge receiving it.

If you're talking about 1838 that was pretty vague. And after that point you were pretty even on me vs Rauth. I don't think the salt is warranted, it's more hindsight than foresight.

I kinda blame myself a bit for not doing a deeper search on friendly to find there were other possible roles that DEB could have.

[davesaz]

To repeat the mod didn't say kill gamma. It was slivers win when last ones standing.

[davesaz]

Maybe tell your recruiter to not holster next time so I don’t end up alone

i didnt?

You didn’t act N1
Afaict that was essentially holstering

Maybe he tried to recruit scum with an alive partner?