Mainstream Mafia II: D&D Edition [FIN]

[zoraster]

hello there. i wish the game didn't start without a notification PM, but here we are.

Everyone who posted earlier than me is slightly suspect.

[zoraster]

VOTE: Untrod Tripod for Governor.

Having a 1-shot governor be able to stop a lynch out of 40 people is fine, pro-information, and voting no governor gets nothing.

[zoraster]

Everyone who posted earlier than me is slightly suspect.

Any logic to this?

I got my PM, said "oh hey, this will be fun when it starts" and then left it to chkflip to tell me when it started because I had nothing to do, no reason to engage with the game.

On the other hand, someone who gets a scum PM has a scum PT and is engaged with the game and waiting for it to start and thus noticed when the nonsense begins. Obviously plenty of people will see it in the Large Theme list and what not, but all equal, anyone who posted before chkflip deigned to tell us the game started gets a mild mark against them.

[zoraster]

Or you could be excited to play? That seems like an obvious oversight my dude.

It's not an oversight. Sorry this struck a chord with you. I guess we'll revisit this as soon as I can place a real vote.

[zoraster]

hello there. i wish the game didn't start without a notification PM, but here we are.

Everyone who posted earlier than me is slightly suspect.

VOTE: Untrod Tripod for Governor.

Having a 1-shot governor be able to stop a lynch out of 40 people is fine, pro-information, and voting no governor gets nothing.

the vote here feels like he's tryna pocket ut.

The gov is just going to cause a lot of drama down the line, so let's just not. You get more information off a lynch then a governor.
Like, not really sure why you want shit because "voting to not get shit gets nothing" when nothing is very clearly better then shit

honestly just feels super agenda driven tbh, along with what was said prior.

We have 40 players, most of whom have power roles of some sort. I figure it's not the known 1-shot governor that's going to cause "drama," and frankly if the mod is spending up to 9 days of our time doing this, there's probably some town reason we'd want to figure out someone to pick. I'm not going to speculate on what that is, but avoiding the game mechanic is essentially trying to argue the game is poorly designed. Maybe it is, but I'm going to play the game in front of me.

I don't really care if it's UT or someone else, but the process of selecting the person and the interaction of what happens after

is

information that I'm interested in.

--

this feels like a forced/weak attempt to start playing the game.

well shiver me timbers. You've found me out. I was trying to play the game.

[zoraster]

I don't really know what Cephrir is doing but I'm enjoying it so:

VOTE: Cephrir

[zoraster]

VOTE: Formerfish

[zoraster]

I don’t lie, I just claim things that aren’t my role genuinely.

But I am unrecruitable town, not giving more than that right now

I'm torn between wanting to PL you and wishing I'd done this first.

Let's vote No Governor because I have a mild preference for picking someone, but a strong aversion to expending the amount of characters and energy it would require to pick a candidate and try to talk enough people into going through with it.

VOTE: No Governor

Still VLA until Tuesday morning.

You know what? this is as good a reason as any. I'm tired of this nonsense, I don't think we're going to get 21 on anyone, and if we're going to no governor, we might as well do this before I totally lose interest in this game.

VOTE: No Governor

[zoraster]

Or you could be excited to play? That seems like an obvious oversight my dude.

It's not an oversight. Sorry this struck a chord with you. I guess we'll revisit this as soon as I can place a real vote.

And lo, as it was foretold, so it came to pass:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[zoraster]

Or you could be excited to play? That seems like an obvious oversight my dude.

It's not an oversight. Sorry this struck a chord with you. I guess we'll revisit this as soon as I can place a real vote.

And lo, as it was foretold, so it came to pass:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Wow, are we treating the start like RVS or is that a shot across his bow?

The latter.

[zoraster]

Tbh the quicker we can lynch today the better, so yeah I’m all for using his likely scum ability for good

We just need to stop this 10 different wagon nonsense and consolidate

And Amrun wagon still needs to die

So (a) the quicker the better, (b) everyone needs to get on a big wagon and (c) Oh but not the Amrun wagon?

[zoraster]

VOTE: Creature

What in the world is this crap?

[zoraster]

Creature: I've calmed down
Also Creature: 5/8 posts on this page. (I guess out of 9 with this post)

[zoraster]

VOTE: Drew

I think Fonz has it right. Getting rid of a PGO claim today makes the game easier in the future, particularly because the power of the PGO in a setup like this (if it's accurate and Cobble sided) is it helps set up a landmine for cult, but now that it's announced, they'd be stupid to target him, and now we're left with someone who necessarily needs to either be lynched at some point or left to the end of the game. And having read his posts, even if he's town why would I trust him as a maybe-town champion for lylo? It's possible there exist powerrole ways to neutralize him, but I don't think we need or should speculate on that.

And with all that said, I think he's more likely than most to flip scum. I think he gambled on an early roleclaim here, but he did so in a way to basically assure that

despite claiming

no one wonders why he wasn't removed from the game. Since this is role madness with no vanilla townies, this is pretty much the best he can do. Claim a slightly negative town utility role that would never be nightkilled (never any "why are you still around" questions) but hope it makes people read him as town.

I'm not sure how much credence I give to the "slip" (out of what? 30? town roles in the game you'd expect some not to have digested the town name in the role PM and just registered "town" in their heads), but it's certainly plausible.

---
The vork wagon, on the other hand seems highly suspect. Scum aren't going to stick their necks out to try to get the governor power established. While I'm sure scum would love to own the governor power, I'm willing to bet 30 chkflip nickels that the vast majority of scum quietly tried to make their way onto a wagon, either on the no governor wagon or whatever other wagon popped up (mena or whoever). I really doubt they'd spend their time tilting at windmills trying to get themselves elected.

[zoraster]

I'm of the "its not a slip" camp and I think Drews "I'm prob better off dead" sounds towny although I guess you could argue that its LAMIST. I'd be ok with ending the day b/c its already 190 (close enough) pages and night is already 3 days and it would give the stragglers a chance to catchup. Barring some unforeseen Suprise Drew is going to remain unconfirmed and is going to make a good hedge for scum and be a distraction/red herring for town. So TSE can hammer if he so wishes.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that Zor is constantly voting with UT so maybe some hard buddying going on there or something.

Is that the direction it's gone? I think I "buddied" him for Governor, but he "buddied" me for Cephrir for Gov and Creature for lynch. Anyway, my vote post on Drew actually began before UT's vote came through as it took me a while to write.

[zoraster]

I'm of the "its not a slip" camp and I think Drews "I'm prob better off dead" sounds towny although I guess you could argue that its LAMIST. I'd be ok with ending the day b/c its already 190 (close enough) pages and night is already 3 days and it would give the stragglers a chance to catchup. Barring some unforeseen Suprise Drew is going to remain unconfirmed and is going to make a good hedge for scum and be a distraction/red herring for town. So TSE can hammer if he so wishes.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that Zor is constantly voting with UT so maybe some hard buddying going on there or something.

Is that the direction it's gone? I think I "buddied" him for Governor, but he "buddied" me for Cephrir for Gov and

Creature for lynch

. Anyway, my vote post on Drew actually began before UT's vote came through as it took me a while to write.

vote Creature

VOTE: Creature

What in the world is this crap?

vote Creature

sure let's do it

you and UT also voted Creature together

@Zor

highlighted for your pleasure.

[zoraster]

If we're going to try to start a cw at this point, btw, my money's on Zor. His treatment of UT doesn't read as natural, he's done fuckall with regards to following up on his "early posting AI" and his pl push on creat was easily the worst of the bunch.

I think my post on my current vote is pretty clear. It's not like I have a ton of posts; it shouldn't be that hard to not misrepresent my stuff. I was also serious about my vote on Gamma.

In any event, the Creature "PL push" was in exasperation. To be clear, "hyperposting" is one thing, but he had at one point twice as many posts as any other player in the game and had posted, and had just posted 18, 22, and 15times on subsequent pages (that's 55 out of 75 posts!). It needed to be called out and stopped, and if it didn't stop, it needed to be removed. And I find it pretty disingenuous to cast that in some sort of negative light just because it's convenient for you now because I don't think it was

at all

unclear what was going on there.

[zoraster]

maybe I don't understand what "following up on his early posting AI" means?

[zoraster]

You mean the post I explained here?

Also, how much stock do you really expect me to put in something like that anyway? It's not null, but it's not exactly going to control my actions entirely (because there had been way too many people who had posted for all to be scum for one thing and for another, there's been roughly 160 pages since then.) Plus, some people felt it was "angelshooting" and while I don't entirely agree, it's also not necessarily a comment I find entirely wrong either.

[zoraster]

Can someone explain the TSE hate please?

It's not like he came out of left field with the execute, and it feels like people are trying to blame him for their own wrong read on Drew (mine included). Pre-flip I was just grateful to have the day done so we could get some info, which we have now. But I don't think that info makes TSE look worse.

[zoraster]

chkflip says he uses NAR, which has Hide before recruit. I wasn't culted, but if I was, I don't think it'd affect Alisae's hiding.

[zoraster]

I don't really want to do a vanity vote here, but all of TSE, Vork and Virgo/Titus seem like pretty dumb lynches to me.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Still scumming about.

My first instinct says your impression is wrong

Boy, almost came close to asserting something there.

[zoraster]

So is that a no on takers for a UT lynch then?

I'm listening...

[zoraster]

I don't really want to do a vanity vote here, but all of TSE, Vork and Virgo/Titus seem like pretty dumb lynches to me.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Still scumming about.

My first instinct says your impression is wrong

Boy, almost came close to asserting something there.

“Almost came close to asserting something” are you blind to the fact I have been voting TSE for a non-policy reason that I’ve had since D1? Or that I took a stance on Vork vs Drew D1? Or that I had a distinct idea of what I felt about the three people who made solid effort to get the Governor? I think it’s a straight up misdirect to say I’ve been “not asserting” this game.

[zoraster]

So is that a no on takers for a UT lynch then?

I'm listening...

He’s basically not done anything despite imo having gone to greater lengths to be around and look like he’s doing stuff than other slots

Seems overly/unnecessarily defensive too considering he hasn’t really been pushed and isn’t being voted

Seems to be considerably harder to get any sort of vote going on him while every other wagon I’ve lightly fished around on has been easy to get maybe 5ish votes on

That last part you believe to be because of scum assistance on any non-scum vote?

[zoraster]

but what does it all mean???

edit: plz keep pushing it it's worked super well for the past 200 or so pages when the other people I've called out on their bullshit have tried it

I don’t think anyone has meaningfully pushed you yet?

fuck off with this. you've fished for votes on me multiple times.

oh no. not fishing for votes on UT. how

dare

he?

[zoraster]

It really is one of the posts of the year.

[zoraster]

he says literally within 4 hours of voting for a non-leading wagon at the time.

[zoraster]

Glad to see someone posted 27 times in a row. Basically masturbation on a page.

Anyway, Elements is a better lynch than Vork, TSE or Titus in my mind, so let's go with that.

VOTE: Elements

[zoraster]

We've yet to flip any scum though and all you've done is vote for town

uh. what?

[zoraster]

sorry ceph covered it

[zoraster]

this is role madness in a 40p game and I have to believe there are SOME town killing roles out there, and TSE would be a much better vig target than he is a lynch target. I don't anticipate him flipping scum, really, but he is (particularly in this mood) fairly anti-town.

In my eyes, with the exception of deadline pressure, I don't think his power really ever should be used -- not just "leashed." Using it allows for more people to get to stay off our lynch of the day and even more importantly to avoid end-of-wagon pressure to get on it or give a reason why they're off it.

[zoraster]

our "town killing roles" didn't trim any deadwood last night. why would you expect them to tonight?

there are myriad reasons we didn't get a town kill last night that I'll let you fill in yourself.

[zoraster]

this is role madness in a 40p game and I have to believe there are SOME town killing roles out there, and TSE would be a much better vig target than he is a lynch target. I don't anticipate him flipping scum, really, but he is (particularly in this mood) fairly anti-town.

In my eyes, with the exception of deadline pressure, I don't think his power really ever should be used -- not just "leashed." Using it allows for more people to get to stay off our lynch of the day and even more importantly to avoid end-of-wagon pressure to get on it or give a reason why they're off it.

He should execute today at least to prove he isn't lying about it being ungated or scum with Elements.

actually this is a pretty good idea.

[zoraster]

just we don't need to do it at minimum numbers.

[zoraster]

also, my character is like 10x better b/c she's has a pet otter.

go on...

[zoraster]

UNVOTE:

[zoraster]

er

UNVOTE:

[zoraster]

That is not how thread mods work truesoul

Then how am I suppose to respond?

click on each post you want to respond to. then click Now you can respond to many posts in one post!

[zoraster]

Uh. Why am I voting vork? I've never voted vork in this game and my last voting action was to unvote Elements.

VOTE: Titus

[zoraster]

Vork has his VLA on until the 28th.

[zoraster]

welp.

[zoraster]

I was wondering why I'm still alive.

VOTE: insidejob

[zoraster]

@Elements

who did you shoot?

[zoraster]

Elements either didn't see or ignored my question. @

Elements

: who did you kill last night? This isn't trivial.

[zoraster]

also i'm not aasimar or cult.

[zoraster]

VOTE: Wooper

[zoraster]

dammit

[zoraster]

i want to know about Element's gosh darn kill, and i'd like no one to answer for him.

[zoraster]

I'm actually very confused by all this for reasons and have asked the mod to clarify some stuff but for now:

I'm a cobble aligned vigilante.
Flavor wise, I am a mercenary from the organisation of the flaming fist.

Why didn’t you shoot last night?

There was no one I wanted to shoot

Menalque was sacrificed to Orcus N2! They were Margaret Krimsen: Ascension-Aligned Lover Turned Cultist

[zoraster]

Thank you, thank you.

Also reading about Flaming Fist makes me question why they'd sacrifice to Orcus.

[zoraster]

“Killed” is, I think, Elements.

why do you believe this.

[zoraster]

Just to remind you:

I killed creature

Creature was sacrificed to Orcus N3! They were Quickdraw Daniels: Cobble-Aligned Super Saint

[zoraster]

Why are you so hung up on Elements and his kill, Zoraster? I’m not sure what distinction you’re trying to make about the Creature kill and Elements.

I understand your confusion, gobble. I'm trying to get a clear picture of what the claims are here. Depending on what the mod tells me I might have more to add, but regardless SOMETHING is off as we're living in a world where Elements either is lying or some very unlikely stuff is happening.

Namely, Elements claims he killed Creature, which has an Orcus flavor. But he ALSO has claimed he did not shoot N2 (or N1? I'm not sure about that), but Menalque had an Orcus flavor as well. So as I see it EITHER (a) TWO people shot Creature -- one Orcus flavor and one so far unascertained Elements flavor and for some reason Elements kill went after and thus did not register despite NAR explicitly saying this doesn't happen["Killing doesn't stop the actions of the dead player. (Imagine that all kills happen at the end of the night, and everyone pulls the trigger simultaneously.) " OR (b) Elements is lying about being the Creature kill OR (c) and this is perhaps the thing I think most likely, Elements is lying about the Menalque kill for some reason because it's a scum kill flavor that's hard to explain away but my continued push to get him to claim his target despite his obvious attempts to fade into the background made him believe that I know the information anyway and he needs to claim accurately and explain it away.

Anyway, I am not arguing we need to lynch Elements today, but I am saying something is going on and it's not something that needs to be hidden by town. If Elements is SK, then gate him, use him, lose him later. If he was lying about the Creature kill instead, he's probably scum who doesn't have access to another killing role all the time or knows something happened last night that he doesn't understand.

[zoraster]

the mod has clarified what I needed clarified. I am no longer confused. I think it's almost certainly C. Likely SK.

[zoraster]

I take it you asked if there were overlapping kills would the type of death be explicit about that. In other heavy flavor games that has been the case. Ok. So we give Elements a pool of people to kill and if he doesn’t kill within that pool, we kill him.

no, actually. Though that'd be a good question to ask I'm not sure if he'd tell me and although the NAR thing was obvious to me, also the fact that why would TWO people kill creature on the same night when one is already pretty iffy? The mod question is something different altogether. Basically I found out that my role had failed last night, which actually makes things much simpler. I don't really want to go into more detail than that.

@mod

if two people kill the same person in a night, will we get two different flavor messages?

[zoraster]

wait, can someone walk me through why Amrun's result on Vorkuta couldn't have been Korina?

[zoraster]

also n2 obviously

[zoraster]

if it's a factional kill i'd just kind of assume the same flavor applies? But anyway, is there a reason we think that someone can't do both a factional kill and an action? did the mod say that it can't? I hate to retread established stuff, but I want to make sure I understand the actual meat of Amrun's stuff, particularly given I'm implicated.

[zoraster]

wait I was blocked N2 or N3? I think I was blocked N3, though i guess it could have failed for other reasons.

Also

Unvote

I think I misunderstood the basis behind this lynch. If mod confirms that Korina couldn't have done BOTH things, then I'll revote unless we want to do Elements.

[zoraster]

okay so the mod has told me two things:

1. Flavor of kills is down to who submitted first.
2. Yes, you can both do an action and kill.

[zoraster]

okay so the mod has told me two things:

1. Flavor of kills is down to who submitted first.
2. Yes, you can both do an action and kill.

This is problematic.

As in for our analysis or as a method of resolving things?

[zoraster]

okay so the mod has told me two things:

1. Flavor of kills is down to who submitted first.
2. Yes, you can both do an action and kill.

This is problematic.

As in for our analysis or as a method of resolving things?

It casts doubt that Elements is Sk and that Korina did not kill night 2.

at least from my point of view, it only makes it SLIGHTLY less likely that element is an SK. Two people shooting Creature, particularly an SK type role + a vigilante role would be very weird to me.

But for the second, yes, I think it casts doubt on Korina not killing night 2.

[zoraster]

But for the second, yes, I think it casts doubt on Korina not killing night 2.

If the first person to submit gets their kill flavor on it, doesnt it stand to reason that person also will have carried out the kill for the purposes of Amrun's role?

I would assume so? But I don't think there was an argument here that there were two kills on Vork or FF, right?

[zoraster]

But for the second, yes, I think it casts doubt on Korina not killing night 2.

If the first person to submit gets their kill flavor on it, doesnt it stand to reason that person also will have carried out the kill for the purposes of Amrun's role?

I would assume so? But I don't think there was an argument here that there were two kills on Vork or FF, right?

Then I guess I dont understand what you're saying!

There were two parts to this and they're separate.

One is the situation around Elements and the "whoever submitted first" thing could be relevant (though as I've said, unlikely) in terms of the claimed Creature Kill that turned up SK-ish flavor language that matched up with Menalque's death when Elements said he DIDN'T shoot. Because theoretically it's possible that both SK and Vigilante-Elements shot Creature but SK submitted first so the flavor was SK-ish. Again, I do not believe this to be the case, but it is possible.

The other separate point is the Amrun result, which has Korina on N2 along with (for sake of simplicity) me and Wooper. Korina gave a brownie to someone (I forget who at the moment) who confirmed it happened. So because people assumed a kill and an action COULDN'T happen on the same night, that meant either me or Wooper was the person who killed FF. But as it turns out, the mod DOES allow both an action and a kill from the same player, so Korina, confirmed scum through his death, is possibly if not likely the N2 killer too.

Does that make sense? My questions were about two different aspects of the game.

[zoraster]

no?

Amrun, could you post all the lists that you have been given, even if you think they are are redundant?

Yes but it’ll take me a minute cuz phone posting from work.

Night 1: The Fonz, Untrod Tripod, Pine, Virgo the Immaculate, gobbledygook, Pink Ball

Night 2 : Korina, EspressoPatronum, zoraster, TrueSoulEnergy, Wooper, Untrod Tripod

No, that’s not how my role works. I control it.

Night 3: Flavor Leaf, EspressoPatronum, Korina, zoraster, BBmolla, Pine

The fact of it is that it’s one true culprit and six random names. Korina’s presence, whether it’s one of the random ones or not, muddies the waters to make these lists useless.

[zoraster]

ohhhh right. okay, i stand corrected. anyway, i think the point stands

[zoraster]

the flaming black sword killer both vorkuta and formerfish. Just saying.

[zoraster]

Probably actually

[zoraster]

because of the slither language, gobble?

I'll be honest: reading all the flavor stuff makes my eyes glaze over.

[zoraster]

I killed creature

VOTE: Elements

Creature was "Sacrificed to the Orcus". That has happened to 2 other players before, and yet you claim you have NOT killed anyone on N2. It thus follows that you're either lying here (about killing Creature) or that it's actually a factional kill and someone else did the kill on N2.

Looks like selective reading here, though it's not unusual given the number of pages to read.
If there was a crosskill the first submitted one wins in terms of what flavor is reported.

Please, please, please. Let's not pretend that this is what likely happened.

[zoraster]

Uh... i didn't really enjoy being a traitor. That's basically it! I knew who the scum were so i tried to make the worst pushes in the world on them.