Guns & Roses IV [Game Over]

[lilith2013]

yeah not 7, 6. your scumpool seems to be me, vecna, chkflip, maria, farside, ABR?

I really don’t know where you got this from, I even explicitly stated who I would be willing to vote for at the end of my post. Where did you get 7 from? It feels like now you’re making up a reason that you originally said 7

[lilith2013]

Why does ABR/farside tunnel = Don!town to you?

It doesn't, though Don's reaction is somewhat more townleaning.

Ah, I understand now.

Also thanks Maria, I'll give it a look later.

VOTE: SirCakez

Are you voting cakes because you have reasons to scumread him or are you sheeping ABR?

[lilith2013]

I would like to talk to anyone who is not ABR or chkflip, currently.

DC, why did you pick voting ABR over joining the existing wagon on eyestott, who was also in your scumpool?

I don't know, really. Partly because the game felt stalled and I was thinking that might be because eyestott was town and scum were fine with his lynch. Like my preferred trio there was (eyestott, knightmare, ABR) and two of those hadn't resulted in much happening re:gamestate. So it just seemed more productive to go somewhere new.

Hey DC, can we come back to this? If eyestott and knightmare wagons are on town, then wouldn’t scum be trying to keep pushing those lynches through? Iirc the Maria wagon was building already by the time you voted ABR- you didn’t think that could be a scum-driven counterwagon?

[lilith2013]

Chkflip was still scumreading votato until ABR started pushing and then was apparently totally fine with votato’s slot being on the same wagon as him and stopped pushing votato completely.

Can you explain this progression chkflip?

[lilith2013]

In a world with farside town I think my main scumreads would be:

Lilith: I've already explained how I think some of her emotions were planned/overblown you can go back and look at the case for that so I'll leave that part out. I think her taking the sidelines during the whole ABR/Don situation was her trying to fan the flames without getting involved. Her top townread farside suddenly goes to 'yeah I could vote her' while that in and of itself isn't so bad, her reasoning is because farside is tunneling people? Something her meta is known for that Lilth already knows about. Bare in mind they were basically 2 peas in a pod at one point. This is after me and Don start putting a little heat on her as well.

Vecna: I think Vecna has had a lot of his reads flip flop with bare minimum follow up. He questions Cakez recently on why Cakez is townreading him when this is 'one of his more scummy games' Along with the fact his tone changed when he was under pressure for a vote like he was appealing to Don. He got this wrong when I talked to him, but when I corrected him he went with the same excuse of 'interpret it how you want' I can also throw in some useless shading but you get the point.

After that? I'd look in: (Firebringer/Iconeum/votato) everyone else I have some degree of reason to townread.

This mischaracterizes my read on farside - I didn’t say she dropped in my reads due to tunneling but rather due to our thought processes no longer lining up, when her thoughts mirroring mine was the whole reason I was townreading her in the first place. I realized it when she started tunneling DC but I already said I think tunneling itself is just her playstyle.

[lilith2013]

I am doing my best to get this game back on a level of working together with fighting or backlash.
I know my reads are all over. I get tunnel, i move, i tunnel, i get bitchy.
I accept that, i appologize, but if we can consoliate our reads we could lynch scum.

So i read maria post and i would go with venca/knight.
I can conceed its possible lilth was buddying me as scum and im not seeing it that way.
Idk

Epwop:
Fire who are you scum reading.

Are you still scumreading maria?

[lilith2013]

I am doing my best to get this game back on a level of working together with fighting or backlash.
I know my reads are all over. I get tunnel, i move, i tunnel, i get bitchy.
I accept that, i appologize, but if we can consoliate our reads we could lynch scum.

So i read maria post and i would go with venca/knight.
I can conceed its possible lilth was buddying me as scum and im not seeing it that way.
Idk

Epwop:
Fire who are you scum reading.

Are you still scumreading maria?

No.
I can explain if you want.

Yes please

Also lil who are your top 2 scum reads?

I’ve been flip flopping on maria in my head. Like I disagree with a lot of stuff she says but I think maybe she just believes it and is wrong. Her frustration about not being able to engage with you also felt genuine. So I guess chkflip and vecna?

[lilith2013]

What's the point of this post

Happen to notice what happened after I said it?

Literally nothing?

Hey guys I have a secret scumread; my top SR is actually firebringer

Oh really? Explain?

[lilith2013]

And yeah literally nothing happened

[lilith2013]

In a world with farside town I think my main scumreads would be:

Lilith: I've already explained how I think some of her emotions were planned/overblown you can go back and look at the case for that so I'll leave that part out. I think her taking the sidelines during the whole ABR/Don situation was her trying to fan the flames without getting involved. Her top townread farside suddenly goes to 'yeah I could vote her' while that in and of itself isn't so bad, her reasoning is because farside is tunneling people? Something her meta is known for that Lilth already knows about. Bare in mind they were basically 2 peas in a pod at one point. This is after me and Don start putting a little heat on her as well.

Vecna: I think Vecna has had a lot of his reads flip flop with bare minimum follow up. He questions Cakez recently on why Cakez is townreading him when this is 'one of his more scummy games' Along with the fact his tone changed when he was under pressure for a vote like he was appealing to Don. He got this wrong when I talked to him, but when I corrected him he went with the same excuse of 'interpret it how you want' I can also throw in some useless shading but you get the point.

After that? I'd look in: (Firebringer/Iconeum/votato) everyone else I have some degree of reason to townread.

This mischaracterizes my read on farside - I didn’t say she dropped in my reads due to tunneling but rather due to our thought processes no longer lining up, when her thoughts mirroring mine was the whole reason I was townreading her in the first place. I realized it when she started tunneling DC but I already said I think tunneling itself is just her playstyle.

@Maria could you respond to this please

[lilith2013]

Lil: is there a reason your fence sitting on me and maria like that?

Ill get to the compter to give a full reason later tonight about my read change

Can you explain why you think I’m fencesitting? I feel like I’ve been clear that I’m not townreading you anymore because my reason for townreading you is gone. Maria is giving me doubts because she comes across as genuine.

Why are you asking me in particular about fencesitting? Plenty of others have said similar things (not on you/maria but fencesitty things)

[lilith2013]

I mean someone else that is not maria or venca can tell me if I'm wrong about those post from Lilith.
I don't see her taking a stand and I see her leaving options for both me and maria scum but then saying she see's we could be town but then willing to vote either of us.
If I'm wrong, some one tell me why.

I removed maria from my top lynchpool already
You’re also not in my top lynchpool
Could I be convinced to vote either? Yes, but currently I’m not prepared to.
I’m not saying I have the game solved at all and I don’t try to pin down a whole team or whatever and I’m also not even saying you’re both scum

[lilith2013]

she would love to know about our scum read on each other.

?? I’m trying to engage so I can sort both of you. How is that scummy?

[lilith2013]

Like I feel like I’m trying to be transparent about my thought processes and why my reads are changing and you call me fencesitty for it.
I try to ask questions so I can see your responses and get a better idea of how to sort both of you and you call me scummy for it.

????

[lilith2013]

I also am not sure where you see that I’m scumreading you because I’m pretty sure I just said you dropped in my townreads

[lilith2013]

Also I don’t think it’s totally out of left field that your reaction to DC being completely opposite of mine caused me to question why I was townreading you and subsequently whether I should townread you.

[lilith2013]

Spoiler: spoiling this farside post because it’s long

I also am not sure where you see that I’m scumreading you because I’m pretty sure I just said you dropped in my townreads

You’re still in my lynchpool but idk you could try to convince me on farside

Wow that was a wild read..

I don’t think DC is scum. His reactions, while not necessarily pro-town, seem genuinely frustrated and I think I would react similarly to being deathtunneled (and I think I have in the past.... like you don’t react to being deathtunneled with patience and grace unless you’re a saint, you’re obviously going to be upset about it and people who are using his reaction as a reason to scumread him are probably not thinking about how they would react to being deathtunneled or are scum).

Out of the people on the DC wagon (ABD, chkflip, vecna, farside, votato) I think there has to be 1+ scum.
- I don’t know what my ABR read is anymore because he’s being weirdly reasonable at some points but then really deathtunnely at other points.
- I think chkflip/vecna/votato votes seem opportunistic like they see ABR start to deathtunnel and go “ooh easy mislynch, I just have to let ABR do the work.”

• Votato in particular supposedly doesn’t have info on site meta and I think should have questioned the sudden change in ABR more, but at least was scumreading DC prior to ABR’s push.
  
• Chkflip was still scumreading votato until ABR started pushing and then was apparently totally fine with votato’s slot being on the same wagon as him and stopped pushing votato completely.
  
• Vecna sheeps the wagon even though he thought DC vs ABR was TvT. And there’s a weird transition back and forth in his earlier posts from being really friendly with ABR and then suspicious of him like he doesn’t want to come across as having too strong of a townread. So out of these 3 I think it might be vecna or chkflip.

- farside doesn’t want to listen to anything DC says and unfortunately I’m starting to agree with votato here that once she decides a slot is scummy she just tunnels it as if it’s confscum, which to some extent she said herself is her playstyle. The only person she didn’t do this to is ABR - why? Claims it’s because “meta” and she reread the thread but she didn’t do that for anyone else she was tunneling afaik.

I’m still good with a maria wagon

. Need to reread cakes but I’ve been townreading him up to now. Would also be down for a vecna or chkflip wagon and could be convinced on a farside vote.

yeah not 7, 6. your scumpool seems to be me, vecna, chkflip, maria, farside, ABR?

also you're OK with maria yet youre defending her and saying shes town?

Uhhh...... as I stated in my last paragraph, current lynchpool is maria, vecna, chkflip, a

nd could be convinced on farside

. Where are you seeing ABR or you in that paragraph?

I was actually questioning ABR’s reasoning which I thought was faulty logic. The ABR post may have flipped my maria read

See someone that slips in a town read to hey convince me farside is scum.
This is exactly what I see coming from a scum mind set more then town. The reason I was more suspicious of this is that ABR is a town read. But I'm curious why all you ever say is the same mind set as me, over and over as a town tell.

I mean someone else that is not maria or venca can tell me if I'm wrong about those post from Lilith.
I don't see her taking a stand and I see her leaving options for both me and maria scum but then saying she see's we could be town but then willing to vote either of us.
If I'm wrong, some one tell me why.

I removed maria from my top lynchpool already
You’re also not in my top lynchpool
Could I be convinced to vote either? Yes, but currently I’m not prepared to.
I’m not saying I have the game solved at all and I don’t try to pin down a whole team or whatever and I’m also not even saying you’re both scum

The bold above contradicts the statement made.
You have made another post that give you free reign to ride either side of the wagon. The "well she's not town, but I don't scum read her so I'm fine with that wagon"
That is many more classic line of you not figuring players out but trying to be ambious as possible in your words.

See and when I look at the meta for lilith she doesn't solely read a player as town just for being in sync with her. Like I searched many different places and I couldn't find a time that she put that as a main reason to town read someone.
(and yes that is within the rules chkflip, you can meta search a player).
So no I'm no longer sold on lilith as town. I don't see the tides changing. I don't think Cakez is scum but I don't see enough time to change this wagon around.
Sorry cakez, ABR said he would shoot venca and I can see with lilith them being scum together especially since they have barely interacted together so you are basically the goat in this game.

I don’t think you’re even reading my posts....... when I said I could be convinced to vote for you I was talking about there being 1+ scum on the DC wagon and that was my main point in the post you quoted. I don’t think it’s contradictory of me to say you’re not a scumread and also not a townread so therefore I could be convinced to vote you since you were on the wagon I think has scum.

The basis of my strongest reads when I played before was actually usually based on how in tune I feel with someone’s perspective. Unfortunately I just never paid attention to it before because when I last played mafia,

4 years ago

, I thought the best way to catch scum was to question their logic. I happen to be very different than I was 4 years ago (I mean that’s like 15% of my life that I’ve been gone from this site) so I imagine a lot about my play is going to be different and meta probably isn’t going to work that well until I’ve played more games. Behaving differently after 4 years is not a scumtell.

If you’ve chosen me as your next tunnel target I’m just not going to engage any further. Like at this point I think you’ve decided I must be scummy and will basically take anything I say and twist my words to paint me more negatively.

[lilith2013]

Why are you on this wagon now when you thought it was a wagon on town before?

[lilith2013]

claiming them town till you realize you cant ride their coat tails once their being scum read.

What does that mean? If you’re referring to yourself I don’t think anyone was SRing you when I said this stuff?

I’d said by that point I was flip flopping on maria because her posts felt genuine, so there I was trying to engage in good faith and hear her thoughts so I could try to see where she was coming from. I think my initial scumread was based mostly on her scumread of me being based on misreps but if she was actually believing what she was saying, then I don’t know if it makes sense to scumread her just for that. Asking her for her reasons on scumreading you was also a way to figure out what my read on her was, if that makes sense. I think it came across differently than how I intended but a lot of the time I ask for people’s reads/opinions on other people to also get a better read on the person I’m asking.

Also I appreciate the lack of tunneling here.

[lilith2013]

@DC

Why are you on this wagon now when you thought it was a wagon on town before?

[lilith2013]

Maria vote Knightmare with us?

Also weird callout of maria when she’s not in thread. Why are you asking specifically maria?

[lilith2013]

@DC

Why are you on this wagon now when you thought it was a wagon on town before?

I’ve been saying for ages that I think one scum in Knightmare/eyestott is likely, and I prefer it to cakez

That’s basically it

Also someone(?) said that Maria could have been a counterwagon to scum!eyestott/Knightmare

That was me and I’m surprised you hadn’t thought of that pre-ABR push

[lilith2013]

lilith you changed your avatar :O

yep! new avatar to go with the new me

[lilith2013]

oh god. if you don't think you can handle it, don't play? super scummy that you show up to defend yourself as soon as the finger is on you. that said, i still think there are better wagons than knightmare.

I did not expect it to go to 90 pages day 1. It's not like I cannot handle it, is there a compulsive need for people to make 1000 posts or they're automatically scum?
I'm not a shit poster and I'm not going to contribute to blowing up the thread for no reason.
And what is it with the defending? Town shouldn't defend themselves?

That’s not at all what votato said - I believe he meant it’s suspicious that you’re absent from the thread for alllllll these pages but as soon as a wagon starts on you you’re back in the thread

[lilith2013]

@votato who are these better wagons

[lilith2013]

Fuck it

VOTE: knightmare

[lilith2013]

@votato who was/were your preferred wagon(s) over knightmare at the end of D1?

[lilith2013]

VOTE: vecna

Rereading interactions with ABR and the inconsistency in tone vs read still bothers me

[lilith2013]

Gun claims: Abr, you and DC.

at this time, it's literally in town's best interest for a town gun to CC and figure out the scum among these claims.
otherwise, these 3 are conftown and should be treated as such

Agree with this

Vecna flailing trying to pin scumreads on two uncced guns is hilarious

[lilith2013]

@DC how does you shooting someone who doesn’t die softclear them? This assumes that scum only take guns, right?

[lilith2013]

Lilith why aren’t you voting farside today?

? Why should I be voting her? Vecna is still my top SR and I don’t see a farside/vecna team

[lilith2013]

Lilith why aren’t you voting farside today?

? Why should I be voting her? Vecna is still my top SR and I don’t see a farside/vecna team

Are you not scumreading farside after yesterday?

Idk what this is supposed to mean? No, she was basically a null read for me.. but again, I don’t see farside/vecna team so I don’t think she is scum. Are you scumreading her?

[lilith2013]

Why are you still scumreading me lilith?

Already talked about it. In fact I actually asked you about it and you basically told me to go away.

Progression on ABR comes across as contrived. You said he wasn’t a strong townread but your tone when interacting with him indicated he was a strong townread. Then your tone went back to being suspicious of him when you said he was your strongest townread. ToDay you’ve been trying to FoS two uncced guns, one of whom happens to be ABR who was previously your strongest townread.

[lilith2013]

Lilith why aren’t you voting farside today?

? Why should I be voting her? Vecna is still my top SR and I don’t see a farside/vecna team

Are you not scumreading farside after yesterday?

Idk what this is supposed to mean? No, she was basically a null read for me.. but again, I don’t see farside/vecna team so I don’t think she is scum. Are you scumreading her?

Maybe

Why don’t you think vecna/farside makes sense as a team?

I can’t find the posts now but she was basically telling ABR to shoot vecna for the last bit of D1 and also told you something like “she would pay you money to shoot vecna.” Idk if I see scum egging on two town guns to shoot scumbuddy?

[lilith2013]

I think farside is much more likely to understand my flipflopping though

?? farside has been trying to convince you that uncced guns are ICs.

Did you just scumclaim buddies with farside..?

[lilith2013]

except you definitely arent town.

preferred lynches are lilith and chkflip.

?? Why are you calling vecna scum but he’s not in your lynch pool?

[lilith2013]

Can both of you stop, this isn’t helping us at all

[lilith2013]

Remember how Maria scumread me based on my interaction with CHKflip? and my vote there? and subsequent unvote?

That was pretty unremarkable to pretty much everyone.

Im theorizing her attention was drawn to it because it was the first vote for her scumbuddy in the entire game

Wtf

I was going to say that wasn’t the first vote on chkflip.... but farside and I were both pushing chkflip hard during D1 and Maria also came out with scumreads on the two of us

what

[lilith2013]

Shit if this is true then vecna might actually be town

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE:

[lilith2013]

Wait no

ABR and votato also voted chkflip

[lilith2013]

Like there was an entire wagon on chkflip before you voted him

[lilith2013]

That was a roller coaster

[lilith2013]

Just start at D2, you can always go back to read more of D1 if needed.

Here's a TLDR of D1 stuff I think you may have missed:
- competing eyestott + maria wagons
- ABR vs DC 1v1
- competing cakes + maria wagons
- deadline lynch of knightmare

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE:
Something is really bothering me let me fully catch up then I'll explain

VOTE: Vecna

Why unvote vecna just to revote him?

[lilith2013]

Well my paranoia was infound but my vote states.

Paranoia re: what?

[lilith2013]

Okay, but you’re not giving me an actual solve, you’re giving me who might be in it and who’s conditional on being in it

Which 3 names right now do you think are most likely to end the game if we lynched/shot them all back to back?

Maria, Farside and one of stotts/votato

But I say that having no proper read on lilith whatsoever

I dont ever admit this, but my solve feels like shit this game

So yeah, im sure we'll see each other in the god thread soon and we can discuss where this all went wrong

What happened to your maria/chkflip theory?

[lilith2013]

I wanna hear what everyone else thinks vecna’s alignment is

Am I tunnelling here or is he as scummy as I think?

Scummy

When he came up with the maria/chkflip theory I had a moment of doubt but his theory wasn’t actually valid so I’m still scumreading vecna

The funny part is, if you hadnt pulled those lines about the masculinities and shit this game probably wouldve gone totally different and been so simple.

Because understandably you really want the game to have me as scum now

“Those lines”

You mean those very factual points about how players disproportionately sheep the shoutiest/loudest players, who are disproportionately men, who are disproportionately overconfident in their reads even when wrong and who are disproportionately likely to stick to their tunnel and not reconsider in light of additional evidence

Yes, I’m sure gender has absolutely nothing to do with it

It just felt very opportunistic and manipulative to me to get out from under that deathtunnel

And it has coloured my view of you ever since, and probably resulted me being in this shit position.

Normally as town im never in this position of weaksauce and weakness, only when I get distracted by a tunnel that ends up being wrong.

How would you react to being tunneled by ABR?

[lilith2013]

Okay I thought I revoted vecna but apparently I forgot to do that

VOTE: vecna

[lilith2013]

He said that Lilith has been tunnelling him but I haven’t checked to see if it’s true yet

I’m scumreading him because he does scummy things like talk to ABR in a tone that doesn’t match the strength of his read and he calls it tunneling

[lilith2013]

I think it’s vecna/chkflip/?

[lilith2013]

What’s the case on eyestott?

[lilith2013]

Jesus I think that’s L-1, can you unvote or else scum are going to hammer me and I think that’s game over

[lilith2013]

I don’t actually see anyone giving reasoning for voting me. Can anyone currently on my wagon give me something I can engage with?

[lilith2013]

I still think bussing Vecna might have been a possibility, @ABR why don’t you think that’s possible?

Regardless of wagon alignment scum need to be on the wagon today, don’t they? (At least 1)

[lilith2013]

@Vecna when I’ve tried to explain my scumread on you your response is just “stop tunneling” and tbh I don’t feel like trying to explain myself further to a brick wall. I don’t think it’s tunneling when there are blatant discrepancies between your

words

and your

actions

and you still haven’t given me a good answer for why.

[lilith2013]

@Vecna once again, here’s a TLDR:

1) when your words indicated that ABR was not a strong townread, your actions indicated he was a strong townread (feels like buddying)
2) when your words indicated that ABR was your strongest townread, your actions indicated that you were still suspicious of him
3) when your words indicated that you thought ABR vs DC was TvT, your actions indicated that you wanted DC dead even though you thought he was town

[lilith2013]

Hey Lilith how would you feel about voting for eyestott?

He wasn’t in my initial lynchpool tbh. I think I missed why everyone is scumreading him?

[lilith2013]

lets hammer lilith imo

Scum probably all 3 picked gun, killed FB/something smat/farside.

Lilith is scum fore sure.

I’m really fucking not, go take your shitty reads elsewhere ABR

[lilith2013]

Oops sorry i accidentally multiquoted

[lilith2013]

I don’t actually see anyone giving reasoning for voting me. Can anyone currently on my wagon give me something I can engage with?

[lilith2013]

I don’t actually see anyone giving reasoning for voting me. Can anyone currently on my wagon give me something I can engage with?

I just quoted for you my reasoning though

I don’t understand why you’re voting me instead of maria since she seems to be your strongest scumread. Is it because DC won’t wagon her with you?

Vecna/chkflip I disagree with because I still think scum have to be on any wagon. Chkflip defending scum!vecna isn’t towny and Vecna’s reads re:chkflip are all over the place while afaik chkflip’s read on Vecna has not change at all over the course of this game.

[lilith2013]

I don’t actually see anyone giving reasoning for voting me. Can anyone currently on my wagon give me something I can engage with?

Did you see my big post?

Do you agree on my reasoning for towncasing Votato?

Can you see where im coming from saying Farside is showing a lot of conviction in how she is pushing me?

Because its all out there, and youre not interacting with any of it.

You only come out here to demand attention when youre about to get hammered, while theres a lot of people actually putting in strong effort to narrow down on a proper lynch.

-------------------------------------

And yes, I can see where youre comnig from with the ABR thing. I probably acted dodgy as fuck around that. But I honestly feel ive done SO BLOODY MUCH afterwards to try and change people their opinion, and its all falling on quite deaf ears except for a select individuals.

I mean I was literally asleep while I was being wagoned, not my fault I woke up to being at L-1

I’ll go reread whatever post this is

[lilith2013]

I was initially going to use this to confbias farside + stotts + lilith together, but now im gonna approach it from a different angle (while still explaining why I thought it linked Farside + lilith together

Do you want my new top secret solve for this game?

Continued in the quote. Yes im going there

Spoiler:

The scum team is Maria + Chkflip

And one out of (Farside + lilith + Stotts)

and I really dont want it to be stotts so my townreads on D1 at least were good

Chkflip was also extremely humble and weird and understanding of my vote there, even after I gave him a weak piece of shit explanation

calling it like "the most accurate someone has ever described changes in my play"

Going on how he was going to be all nice and cuddly and friendly this game and that that was the change I had spotted

And then he proceeds to play exactly as the way he has done so far. Which seems very towny, but not exactly friendly or non-aggresive if you will.

Remember how Maria scumread me based on my interaction with CHKflip? and my vote there? and subsequent unvote?

That was pretty unremarkable to pretty much everyone.

Im theorizing her attention was drawn to it because it was the first vote for her scumbuddy in the entire game

Wtf

I was going to say that wasn’t the first vote on chkflip.... but farside and I were both pushing chkflip hard during D1 and Maria also came out with scumreads on the two of us

what

Intermission/discussion: So I did one of my *lightbulb* derps here. The people that are now town to me all responded with

But lilith took it very serious, and even unvoted me. That was the only shit that gave her pause and made her interact wtih me and the "case"

Initially I was going to look at this from the scum perspective, that wants to exploit this, by encouraging it somewhat, while still being the voice of reason that gently just corrects me where needed. I thought this would fit quite well with FArside + lilith + Stotts, wanting me to push that logic for after I flip. Maybe if it was given enough attention, it would start living its own life and people would buy into it, right?

The other alternative.....is that I actually nailed it, and she felt the need to comment because her entire just was just cast in a net with accurate reason. I know, youre all probably doing the thing again.....but why would she bite on this little conspiracy theory? I think one of these two explenations is quite plausible. #2 probably more than #1

Yeah I had a moment of “what if all my reads are wrong and this maria/chkflip theory breaks the game wide open?” That would have meant by necessity you were town.

continuing

Spoiler:

goddamn this case is sure threading that fine line between mouth diarrhea and utter brilliance

Good luck still scumreading me after this piece of prose while still being able to look at yourself in the mirror

UNVOTE:

Interesting.

Editing out a lot of my posts because quoting is a lot of work. You can reread it in thread if u feel theyre relevant

Wait no

ABR and votato also voted chkflip

Like there was an entire wagon on chkflip before you voted him

That was a roller coaster

Well, to be fair, I do tend to come up with all them wild conspiracy theories where my brain finds patterns everywhere and then refuses to see any other truth

Interesting.

Interesting.

So lilith continues to take the case seriously. She's searching for answers, and finds some easy way to gently discredit it. She swoops the "main argument" that chkflip had already been voted earlier. There even was an entire wagon on chkflip. She still ignores the fact that Maria voted for most of those people, which included her and Farside. Shading 3 of the people attacking chkflip.

When it becomes an entire wagon of people, maria shading/voting all those people isn’t necessarily related to chkflip. When it was just 1 person, yes. When it was 3 people, I could still see it. But a whole wagon of people corresponding to votes makes a really weak correlation. Maria could have voted for everyone in the game and she still would have voted for all the people on the chkflip wagon. You even said yourself that including me and farside in this theory weakens the case.

Then in come DC and Vokuto and redicule people calling my case interesting. Lilith realizes noone is actually taking it seriously, and completely stops engaging the idea.

She never talks to me again, never mentions me again, untill the big wagon on me starts. Here she just comes in, votes, and claims im scum and need to die.

I wasn’t online to do any of those things and I revoted you the next time I was back in the thread. I actually thought I revoted you before when I said “no chkflip actually had a whole wagon on him” but I guess I forgot to.

Never any thoughts back to this earlier interaction. If she actually was town taking me serious there, why not at least go over the fact that that was some pretty creative shit scum dont pull off that easily? Why suddenly forgot you called me town for it earlier (even though you feel you removed some part of the main argument).

Farside also called this vote out as bussing, and it does look weak, as a hop on.

It might not mean shit, but it sure feels very iffy. Iffy in a, this was done to me, but the reasoning and progression dont feel genuine.

Yeah cause I still think you’re scum. Apparently when I try to explain my progressions I get called fencesitty for it so I’m just not doing that anymore.

[lilith2013]

Wow the deathtunnel by ABR

[lilith2013]

lilith has offered zero game solves. I don't buy anything she says.

I’m still at vecna/chkflip/(one of maria/eyestott/votato) and I said as much yesterday. You still haven’t answered me about why scum wouldn’t have been on vecna’s wagon.

Her "fuck it" knightmare vote yesterday is scummy.

Really? Deadline lynch vote is scummy?

I can’t really argue with the other two things because from the reasoning you’re using, I am scum by PoE. I just think the reasoning is wrong (ie you’re building your PoE around a town!vecna wagon being driven by scum when I think it could just be bussing).

[lilith2013]

Sorry idk where that came from - I meant why wouldn’t scum have been bussing?

[lilith2013]

I just think the reasoning is wrong (ie you’re building your PoE around a town!vecna wagon being driven by scum when I think it could just be bussing).

[lilith2013]

Why is that?

[lilith2013]

Also I think scum were probably later on the wagon, which doesn’t require a planned bus.

[lilith2013]

Also I think scum were probably later on the wagon, which doesn’t require a planned bus.

If theyre later in the wagon maria is town.

Chlflp votato eyestot are gonna kill among the conftown.

Okay you’re right, I wasn’t taking into account the nightkills. So that leaves maria/farside/eyestott/votato

[lilith2013]

I have some RL and work stuff happening atm and haven’t checked in on any of my games since yesterday. farside accusing me of “actively lurking” is way off base and patently untrue, and idk how she comes to that conclusion or what information she is using to infer that I am.

New theory is farside/votato given they were on both wagons today. 3rd is maybe eyestott. Can’t post again until after work today.

[lilith2013]

What with the rl stuff happening, and SS flipping town and people ignoring me when I try to engage with them, I’ve been feeling really demotivated since the day started. Unfortunately I think we lose if I get lynched today - if I’m interpreting the rules correctly, if scum still have guns left they can kill off the rest of the roses faster than we can lynch them, if we mislynch today. So if yall can give me some time to get my head on straight I’ll reread the game and try to contribute more. It’s going to take some time so I’d appreciate a bit of patience here.

[lilith2013]

? Are you talking about me? I’m referring to something DC said:

It’s strongly optimal for scum to take all guns for the extra kill potential

Also we had 2 scum-kills N1 which means as few as 1 gun used. Even if 1 scum picked rose as in previous games, they could still have another gun they haven’t used.

[lilith2013]

I responded to a bunch of Vecna posts explaining why I was scumreading him and also responding to his case post on me and never got a response

Farside has been announcing how strongly she scumreads me but hasn’t actually engaged with me at all since D1. Like her posts about scumreading me are directed towards other people and she’s not actually talking to me. In all of her other pushes this game she has had back and forths with the person she was pushing but she’s barely spoken to me D2 even though I’m apparently her strongest scumread.

[lilith2013]

okay, are you scumreading him?

[lilith2013]

? I put farside/votato/maybe eyestott as my latest theory based on D2 wagons

[lilith2013]

? I put farside/votato/maybe eyestott as my latest theory based on D2 wagons

Youre not voting, pushing, or building cases on them or trying to read them at all

tbh when I posted that I thought I was at L-1 and was just trying to get out a final theory before someone hammered me. Like I said, I'm going to reread and will post more after

I responded to a bunch of Vecna posts explaining why I was scumreading him and also responding to his case post on me and never got a response

Farside has been announcing how strongly she scumreads me but hasn’t actually engaged with me at all since D1. Like her posts about scumreading me are directed towards other people and she’s not actually talking to me. In all of her other pushes this game she has had back and forths with the person she was pushing but she’s barely spoken to me D2 even though I’m apparently her strongest scumread.

And every time I engage with you, some how you magically aren't here to talk back.

Can you show me where you tried to engage with me that I didn't respond? Afaik I have responded to every post you have made directed to me

But sure, lets pretend it's a thing that isn't false for a moment.
You basically look to use anyone to butter up to to jump on a wagon. You never even engaged with S_S after your supposed scum read on him from the beginning.

Not true - I tried to articulate later why I was scumreading him and after that he bumped into my null pile because he started doing some of the things I would expect from him as town.

You dropped any scum read that didn't pan out and let others fight while doing nothing to continue it. You were willing to vote a player you called town based on them having a similar mind set but one read that you disagreed with was a good enough reason to be "convinced" to vote them.

Already said this was because you were basically null but you were on the DC wagon

You basically are floating by with no really push on anyone most of this game.

I'll be the first to admit I'm bad at this game, but I feel like I started a lot of the wagons D1...

? I put farside/votato/maybe eyestott as my latest theory based on D2 wagons

Oh and you can explain why votato and I look like scum together with all my pushing on him day 1.
*eats popcorn*

you were the one who sheeped me onto votato wagon....
you defended him from chkflip at the beginning of the game until you could no longer use the defense "he's a newb"
the two of you joined both wagons D2 but were not the first ones on them
I'm sure I can find other stuff if I reread your ISO

pedit: alright whatever. Apparently I don't even get a chance to reread the game and try to change your mind. If I'm going to be lynched regardless then just do it now before I force myself to reread 120 pages

[lilith2013]

Lilith is scum guys. Can we end today please.

Then why say this?

[lilith2013]

Sounds like you've made up your mind

[lilith2013]

Not going to do a large quote wall war here.
I hammered and tunnelled votato to death and ignoring all that just to claim you (lilth) started it, is not exactly a point in favor of me scum with him.

you dropped it around the time that other wagons started forming, I'm saying it's not out of the question for that to be a SvS since it stopped so suddenly

If i seriously need to quite the number of time lilth called me town this game to dispute her null comment let me know.

So now it's scummy for reads to change? I've already explained myself to death on why this happened

Those with reading issue

Already said this was because you were basically null but you were on the DC wagon

That was a comment lilith just said. Now go back to end of day 1 and see how many times she says town read on me but doesnt like my vote on DC and could be convinced to vote me.

By the time I was saying I didn't like your vote on the wagon, I was also already saying you were no longer a townread. Those things aren't contradictory.

I will happily quote myself all day long so people can see you are misrepping my reads and my supposed lack of engagement with you.

I didn’t say she dropped in my reads due to tunneling but rather due to our thought processes no longer lining up, when her thoughts mirroring mine was the whole reason I was townreading her in the first place. I realized it when she started tunneling DC but I already said I think tunneling itself is just her playstyle.

Can you explain why you think I’m fencesitting? I feel like I’ve been clear that I’m not townreading you anymore because my reason for townreading you is gone.

she would love to know about our scum read on each other.

?? I’m trying to engage so I can sort both of you. How is that scummy?

Like I feel like I’m trying to be transparent about my thought processes and why my reads are changing and you call me fencesitty for it.
I try to ask questions so I can see your responses and get a better idea of how to sort both of you and you call me scummy for it.

????

I also am not sure where you see that I’m scumreading you because I’m pretty sure I just said you dropped in my townreads

Also I don’t think it’s totally out of left field that your reaction to DC being completely opposite of mine caused me to question why I was townreading you and subsequently whether I should townread you.

Spoiler: spoiling this farside post because it’s long

I also am not sure where you see that I’m scumreading you because I’m pretty sure I just said you dropped in my townreads

You’re still in my lynchpool but idk you could try to convince me on farside

Wow that was a wild read..

I don’t think DC is scum. His reactions, while not necessarily pro-town, seem genuinely frustrated and I think I would react similarly to being deathtunneled (and I think I have in the past.... like you don’t react to being deathtunneled with patience and grace unless you’re a saint, you’re obviously going to be upset about it and people who are using his reaction as a reason to scumread him are probably not thinking about how they would react to being deathtunneled or are scum).

Out of the people on the DC wagon (ABD, chkflip, vecna, farside, votato) I think there has to be 1+ scum.
- I don’t know what my ABR read is anymore because he’s being weirdly reasonable at some points but then really deathtunnely at other points.
- I think chkflip/vecna/votato votes seem opportunistic like they see ABR start to deathtunnel and go “ooh easy mislynch, I just have to let ABR do the work.”

• Votato in particular supposedly doesn’t have info on site meta and I think should have questioned the sudden change in ABR more, but at least was scumreading DC prior to ABR’s push.
  
• Chkflip was still scumreading votato until ABR started pushing and then was apparently totally fine with votato’s slot being on the same wagon as him and stopped pushing votato completely.
  
• Vecna sheeps the wagon even though he thought DC vs ABR was TvT. And there’s a weird transition back and forth in his earlier posts from being really friendly with ABR and then suspicious of him like he doesn’t want to come across as having too strong of a townread. So out of these 3 I think it might be vecna or chkflip.

- farside doesn’t want to listen to anything DC says and unfortunately I’m starting to agree with votato here that once she decides a slot is scummy she just tunnels it as if it’s confscum, which to some extent she said herself is her playstyle. The only person she didn’t do this to is ABR - why? Claims it’s because “meta” and she reread the thread but she didn’t do that for anyone else she was tunneling afaik.

I’m still good with a maria wagon

. Need to reread cakes but I’ve been townreading him up to now. Would also be down for a vecna or chkflip wagon and could be convinced on a farside vote.

yeah not 7, 6. your scumpool seems to be me, vecna, chkflip, maria, farside, ABR?

also you're OK with maria yet youre defending her and saying shes town?

Uhhh...... as I stated in my last paragraph, current lynchpool is maria, vecna, chkflip, a

nd could be convinced on farside

. Where are you seeing ABR or you in that paragraph?

I was actually questioning ABR’s reasoning which I thought was faulty logic. The ABR post may have flipped my maria read

See someone that slips in a town read to hey convince me farside is scum.
This is exactly what I see coming from a scum mind set more then town. The reason I was more suspicious of this is that ABR is a town read. But I'm curious why all you ever say is the same mind set as me, over and over as a town tell.

I mean someone else that is not maria or venca can tell me if I'm wrong about those post from Lilith.
I don't see her taking a stand and I see her leaving options for both me and maria scum but then saying she see's we could be town but then willing to vote either of us.
If I'm wrong, some one tell me why.

I removed maria from my top lynchpool already
You’re also not in my top lynchpool
Could I be convinced to vote either? Yes, but currently I’m not prepared to.
I’m not saying I have the game solved at all and I don’t try to pin down a whole team or whatever and I’m also not even saying you’re both scum

The bold above contradicts the statement made.
You have made another post that give you free reign to ride either side of the wagon. The "well she's not town, but I don't scum read her so I'm fine with that wagon"
That is many more classic line of you not figuring players out but trying to be ambious as possible in your words.

See and when I look at the meta for lilith she doesn't solely read a player as town just for being in sync with her. Like I searched many different places and I couldn't find a time that she put that as a main reason to town read someone.
(and yes that is within the rules chkflip, you can meta search a player).
So no I'm no longer sold on lilith as town. I don't see the tides changing. I don't think Cakez is scum but I don't see enough time to change this wagon around.
Sorry cakez, ABR said he would shoot venca and I can see with lilith them being scum together especially since they have barely interacted together so you are basically the goat in this game.

I don’t think you’re even reading my posts....... when I said I could be convinced to vote for you I was talking about there being 1+ scum on the DC wagon and that was my main point in the post you quoted. I don’t think it’s contradictory of me to say you’re not a scumread and also not a townread so therefore I could be convinced to vote you since you were on the wagon I think has scum.

[lilith2013]

Please tell me where I said I'm townreading you but could vote you at the same time.

[lilith2013]

Okay in retrospect I wasn't as clear as I thought I was about no longer townreading you when I said I could be convinced to vote you. By the time I posted 1882 I was no longer townreading you though.

[lilith2013]

Who was scumreading you at the time? I don’t recall anyone else scumreading you other than maybe votato but that started before the ABR stuff

[lilith2013]

Then says she isnt scum reading either Maria or me but would lynch either.

How is this different from you saying “these are the people I have no read or scum read on” and lynching within those?

[lilith2013]

Yeah sorry 120 pages takes a while to read

[lilith2013]

Okay I only made it through about 60 pages but here's what I have so far:

Independently I would say eyestott and votato are the scummiest. They tend to join wagons late; eyestott seems almost afraid to place his vote as if he doesn't want to rock the boat and basically doesn't vote anyone who isn't already being wagoned; votato seems to be following most of the major wagons D1. A point in votato's favor is that he was trying to push farside when she was fairly townread. On the flip side, he's on the cakes counterwagon to an all-town wagon on maria at end of D1, the DC wagon, and the D2 vecna wagon. eyestott ends up on the knightmare lynch but only because his vote was already there from before; however, he put the original vote on knightmare only after someone else voted there and then seems to have dropped the push once others said knightmare was too scummy to be scum (this might have overlapped with his RL absence from the thread though). eyestott is also on the D2 vecna wagon. So overall I think they are about equal but not necessarily on the same team.

disclaimer: shitty wagon analysis incoming
eyestott vs maria wagons: if eyestott is scum and maria is the town counterwagon, then that implicates vecna I think
maria vs cakes wagons: if maria is scum and cakes is the town counterwagon, then that implicates votato, chkflip, and/or farside
votato D1 wagon: I think at least 1 scum is on this wagon (farside or chkflip)
DC D1 wagon: I also think at least 1 scum is on this wagon (chkflip, vecna, votato, farside)
ABR D1 wagon: also probable for at least 1 scum to be on this wagon (vecna, farside, chkflip). farside, vecna, and chkflip probably more so because they are on both the ABR wagon and the DC wagon.
vecna D2 wagon: at least 1 scum on this wagon regardless of vecna alignment; at least 2 scum if vecna is town. (maria, farside, eyestott, votato)
eyestott D2 wagon: likely at least 1 scum on this wagon regardless of eyestott alignment (vecna, maria)
lilith D2 wagon: at least 1 but probably 2 scum on this wagon (farside, chkflip, votato, vecna)

I think that leaves me with {eyestott, vecna, farside/chkflip} or {maria, farside/chkflip, votato} or smaller chance of {maria, eyestott, farside/votato} if both the eyestott/maria wagons are on scum (I think this is less likely because their wagons got derailed by DC who is conftown)

I feel like people have been saying that Maria/farside doesn't make sense because of D1 but actually Maria pushed farside really hard on D1, dropped it, and basically hasn't engaged with farside since. Even though farside was originally one of her top scumreads at the beginning of the day, Maria has said pretty much nothing about that slot after that. farside was also scumreading Maria based on their D1 interactions but in D2 does not seem to be pushing her at all or considering Maria to be part of any possible scum team to the point that it seems like she is now townreading Maria. Also at the end of D1 I was trying to question Maria and farside kind of chainsaw defended her by attacking me for it.

On reread I'm actually feeling more confident in a Maria/farside team due to the lack of interaction/disconnect in reads vs tone D2 so I'm leaning towards {maria, farside, votato/eyestott} or {eyestott, vecna, farside/chkflip} as secondary team

[lilith2013]

I mean it’s not that wagon in particular but that you seem to just follow whatever major wagon is happening at the time

[lilith2013]

- 4th on the chkflip wagon
- 4th on the DC wagon
- sheeped ABR onto the Cakes wagon
- 5th on the vecna wagon
- 4th on my wagon

Nobody is wagoning farside today
Vecna is not being wagoned anymore
Eyestott is the only D2 wagon that you haven't joined
You put vecna at L-1 10 minutes after eyestott voted

Now I think I'm talking myself into an eyestott + votato pairing

[lilith2013]

This is before the DC vs ABR screamfest

I'm leaning towards Don c, lilith, and chk being scum.

This is after the screamfest in which you were on the DC wagon (btw, you unvoted DC in 1851)

DC's reads have consistently been similar to mine, which is hard to scumread for.

How do you go so quickly from "scumreading DC" until 1851 to "DC's reads have been similar to mine so I can't scumread him" in 1885?

[lilith2013]

I don't think this addresses my problem with your progression on DC, which is that you're on his wagon and advocating for his lynch and then once other people start to push back, you just come in with this post out of nowhere as if you had been townreading him all along - which, if you had, 1) why were you voting him for so long? and 2) also contradicts your earlier statements that you were scumreading him.

Also it's not particularly the sheeping that I see as problematic, but rather the timing of your joining major wagons - in the middle of all the wagons I pointed out, which comes across that you're hesitant to put your vote down on major wagons. I think opposing major wagons also falls into this category? Like in your D1 play it seems like you're afraid to join wagons that you think will come to fruition. Knightmare, maria, and eyestott wagons, which are the ones you say you opposed, were all viable lynches at end of day 1. Also I think maria and eyestott might be your buddies in which case it makes sense that you'd be hesitant to join a wagon on them.

[lilith2013]

Chkflip also announced L-2 when we were actually at L-1 on D1 and someone hammered thinking it was L-1 :/

[lilith2013]

(Votato, Lilith +1 vecna/chkflip) if this flips town

If it’s scum then idk tbh, maybe still votato bussing for the cred?

see? DC has decided Im scum and no matter what will be pushing for my lynch. no need for scum to even shoot here because the confbias is so bad that the gamesolving is gone. DC will be alive tomorrow 100%.

... if you’re scum you have a lot of incentive to get on that wagon, regardless of eyestott alignment

[lilith2013]

That is it. Whereas she changed her views depending on what others are saying. She did it again just now.

Literally any time my reads change you call it scummy. I reread the game and put effort into figuring out what teams made sense, it is not scummy for my reads to have changed. I’ll gladly case you on D3.

[lilith2013]

As always, Don and Maria are on the low info lurker lynch that ends in a oops I hammered again.

Chkflip is also on this wagon?

[lilith2013]

And was also on the knightmare wagon

[lilith2013]

Vig votato or chkflip

[lilith2013]

And was also on the knightmare wagon

He's easy to lynch. Maria and you will be hard to lynch. We tried every day multiple times and you both ways wiggle away.

Don’t lump me in with maria, I’ve only had one wagon on me all game

[lilith2013]

{maria, eyestott, farside/votato}

- 4th on the chkflip wagon
- 4th on the DC wagon
- sheeped ABR onto the Cakes wagon
- 5th on the vecna wagon
- 4th on my wagon

Nobody is wagoning farside today
Vecna is not being wagoned anymore
Eyestott is the only D2 wagon that you haven't joined
You put vecna at L-1 10 minutes after eyestott voted

Now I think I'm talking myself into an eyestott + votato pairing

fucking called the scumteam

[lilith2013]

Also I think maria and eyestott might be your buddies

[lilith2013]

that was @votato yesterday^

[lilith2013]

VOTE: Lilith

That's all I need to hear I suppose. Although having to convince ABR will prove to be...yeah

why not votato?

Because the scumteam is maria/votato

@lilith what night rose are you claiming?

N3.

Maria and votato knew ABR was scumreading me hard yesterday and were probably counting on that to get them to the finish line if I turned out to be N3, that's 100% why they left me alive last night.

[lilith2013]

oh my lord I don't think I've ever sweat so much in a game

I'm fine with the scum PT being released, just wanna point out this little gem:

On the flip side, if lilith tried to get me to join this game with her specifically so that she could see if she could still read me, only to roll scum and immediately tunnel me, I'd be surprised.

Surprise!

[lilith2013]

I was 1000% sure I was going to be lynched on both D2 and D3 and I still have no idea how I lived

[lilith2013]

<3 to maria and eyestott

I enjoyed playing with everyone, sorry if I was an asshole to any of you in the process

[lilith2013]

there was in fact a hypothetical world in which I shot icon who was the last person to be townreading me and tried to pin it on you in my D4 case, but then I said to myself "this is more work for me to make arguments about" and just shot you instead

[lilith2013]

Lilith ;(

Sorry cakes if it’s any consolation, I complained a lot in the scum PT about how I didn’t want to play scum and lie to you and SS

[lilith2013]

I think I just have to enter every game scumreading you now

Even when we hydra?

[lilith2013]

Thanks for nodding, fakegod

[lilith2013]

yup
could be a secret Alisae game
ya never know

[lilith2013]

I told eyestott to claim rose because we didn't care about lynching in the guns, we wanted to take roses down. Getting into a cc fight with the town guns would be a detour from killing roses.