Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[Nancy Drew 39]

We haven’t made our account yet, so posting under my main for now but we’re definitely interested in being town stump. I guess just use our mains temporarily.

[Nancy Drew 39]

WE'RE SUBMITTING VIGILANTE MASONS IF YOU PICK US AS TREE STUMPS. I THINK IT'S UNFAIR THAT SCUM GET A FACTIONAL NIGHTKILL, SO NOW I'M GONNA MAKE TOWN HAVE A SIMILAR MECHANIC TOO
~ KORI

Can we do that? disloyal vigilante or loya neighbourizing masons?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Reasons to vote me:
- The game can start
- I’ve already presubmitted my suggested role so Jingle’s most likely got it all planned out.
- I will be a lot more objective than usual since i don’t have to focus on how i’m perceived.
- The game can start
- Alternative is N_M
- I’m usually very active and i comment on a lot of stuff and ask questions.
- The game can start

Reasons to not:
-

Why NM and not us?

I still obviously prefer us but obviously prefer you to NM.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Omgussing is something I typically do. Did you read my tm game? I was in a game recently but not under this account where I sr everyone who either sr or voted me and I received votes from every town player but one plus one of the scum. I wound up winning that game for town.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Titus was bleeding obvtown here. I would have locktowned her had I been town.

Things didn’t necessarily go according to plan. Nom wasn’t killed to frame Moon, we thought he waq vig and would kill her for us.

We thought NM was disloyal vig and dgb was commuter doc.

Only day, we got the expected results of our NAs was the lasr one.

We didn’t expect Nom to flip vt. We didn’t think NM was hider but close to deadline consodered it worth a shot.

Oh and NK15 wasn’t either supposed to claim commuter or vote me. We all expressly told him to claim his true role of commuter enabler because we thought that was his best chance of avoiding the elim.

We probably would have had to bus him at some point if we didn’t want dgb at endgame though, so none of that was planned.

I had a great team with Gamma and an amazing hydra partner in Koba. Bioth of them were stars. Both of them were brilliant. And we also chose tye right roles, inretrospect.

When I said my head was inning, that was true. I was legit shocked that Mastina was bring sr despite the clear.

I really didn’t want to be scum here and if not stump, hopefully tpr but I felt that I had to play 3D chess in this game. One strategy just to keep NM off of me and another just to try to win. Gamma was only confitown until we flipped but his actions last day, made Mastina look more likely to be my buddy, so he was probably endgaming no matter what.

[Nancy Drew 39]

yeah this setup is ridiculously scumsided

Koba and me actually thought the exact opposite. Had NM checked me, it could have all come crashing down on us.

Nsg, commuter IC probably wasn’t optimal. Stumps failed to choose good endgame 1 shots as well and most importantly, you need to read Titus a lot better. She was so obvtown here it hurt.

We thought Norwee would doc someone and we we’re pretty damn sure it wouldn’t be either Titus or Moon. We also considered killing her instead of Titus.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I almost never townread Titus in any game no matter their allignment so that's definitely a slot i have trouble sorting for some reason.

Her reactions to the NK15 wagon spewed her town, because she clearly believed he actually was a commuter.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I have to say despite the scum sided setup town played remarkably well

Idk, I don’t think it was scumsided but what I’ve learned from this and 2 versus gales are, you need to always consider balance.

I had a rolestop but nothing else. There was nothing I could do had NM visited me. We could have no killed but that probably would have been it.

So I adamantly disagree with that.

Town also rushed miselims on Cyrys and Tea and didn’t listen to the stumps. I would have been extremely upset by that had I been town.

I don’t know why Titus had Gamma as obvtown here - other than the clear. He played really well but I probably wouldn’t have townlocked him here.

I think Cyrus was pretty much confitown due to Nom kill. Why does scum!Cyrus ever kill Nom here?

[Nancy Drew 39]

When NM said he was going to visit me, I actually asked Jingle if we could concede. I seriously thought we were fucked but Koba got me to calm down and tried to not let it affect me. When our NK on NM failed on N2, I was pretty much resigned to losing and we literally switched the NKs at the last minute and then we hit the motherload. We weren’t initially going to kill jjh but just NM and dgb.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I was so disappointed at the cyrus lim lol, anyone that has ever played with cyrus should have seen town!cyrus here! Gah!

I had no meta on him but your NK should have absolutely townspewed him. I don’t understand how no one made that connection. You really fooled me, I was certain you were vig, because you sounded just like you did in Boon uPick.

[Nancy Drew 39]

weak hider and commuter IC is also ridiculously OP in a closed setup. if the rand was different we were a lot more fucked here.

+1

It clearly wasn’t scumsuded. I had no protection agains an NM visit. I was completely helpless to do anything about it, so I think it’s pretty much ridiculous to call this game scumsided.

And once we’re flipped, suspicion immediately falls on the clears, so our could have very well fucked Gamma but he was in the best position after House flip but that wasn’t due to setup.

Also, had Gamma picked RS and we picked 1 shot vig, game would have turned out very differently.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I was so disappointed at the cyrus lim lol, anyone that has ever played with cyrus should have seen town!cyrus here! Gah!

Hey, I hard-defended cyrus! I brought up very very strong very very valid points for cyrus being town!

It's not MY fault that SOMEONE decided to, knowing Not_Mafia was in the game, place cyrus to L-1. (Again, I can take 40-60% of the blame for the loss, but how D3 ended is definitely within the other 40-60% that was absolutely NOT my fault.)

No one’s blaming you for that but this is why days should not be rushed. It’s so extremely easy for scum to look good and because the VCA looks great for them or it obviously did for us. As town, I never want to rush days unless it’s really really obvious who scum is.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Why did 3 town die in one night?
So N_M and JJH got both destroyed, but what was the third?

Because Gamma had a 1 shot vig and we killed jjh who NM hid behind and dgb was the other kill. We actually really didn’t know he was hider, we just thought our chances of durectly killing him N3 weren’t great.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Seriously, if i was a weak hider here i would probably do shit like crumbing 100% of the time, and then when outed i'd openly claim to target someone i townread but then actually target someone else (which i would also crumb).

Yeah well, when he didn’t die N2, we ultimately decided our best play was to kill both jjh, dgb and probably pray.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Anyway, I’m extremely glad it’s over. With few exceptions, I generally much prefer to play town.

When NK15 reads this thread, Gamma, Koba and me would really love to know why you claimed commuter instead of commuter enabler?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Basically, Koba, me and Gamma were extremely coordinated in our actions but NK15 was pretty much doing his own thing.

He wasn’t supposed to either claim commuter or vote us, so I really felt I had no choice but to bus after that.

He was supposed to claim enabler and hopefully survive D1.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh and by the way, on N3 if there's no scum dead, that hider hiding behind the scum rolestopper? Can trigger an automatic scum win. So even IF they hide behind the right scum, they can end up actually literally costing the town the game. If the town was expecting only 1-2 town to die in the night, they could actually literally lose the game from it being 3. So even that 41.59090909090909% chance? Not necessarily a good thing for the town!

How do we possibly win if NM had visited us? Yes, we could have no killed but I think we would have been on borrowed time and probably so was Gamma.

I agree with thr timing part of choosing our roles but I think all of us we’re in agreement that who got what role regardless of that. We knew that NK15 was never endgaming - clear or not. He’s a frequent miselim in many games.

I think NM should maybe have been disloyal vig with a 1 shot bp maybe?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also an commuting IC is just another town stump except with an vote and can be killed.
When the game is supposed to have 2 town stump to begin with, adding another one just seems silly.

+1

That’s the main reason we killed dgb because we thought NM was disloyal vig and she was commuter doc.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Mastina, I don’t want to fight with you and I wasn’t trying to insult either you or nsg but I was in a game a long while back on MU which was so unbelievably blatantly scumsided, town had a minus 0 chance of winning. Town tried to get through to the reviewers of said game but unfortunately in that specific instance - those reviewers clearly had their heads up their assess and ludicrously blamed town. Even the game mod in that particular case made a huge goof in the role pms that majorly fucked town, so while I appreciate yours and nsg’s long and valued experience as reviewers, the experience I had with that particular game on MU, didn’t exactly give me a lot of confidence that I should automatically discard my own opinion in favour of the experts and if you or nsg were to have ever reviewed that particular game, I would have been extremely shocked if you wouldn’t have rehected it. I had fun in it regardless but town had a non zero chance of winning that. Scum light have actually designed that game, that’s how ridiculously swingy it was. In short, I always trust my own assessment of things wgenever I’m at odds with any so-called “experts”. Again, not trying to be disrespectful at all but flpov, I just don’t qgree with either of you. I had no protection from NM - none. We had an RS not a jailkeep or roleblock.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also DGB basically not playing and having no WIM whatsoever is probably directly correlated with them being given an confirmed town role. They didn't really care about the game because there was no threat to them and thus it was more boring to solve too.

Loyal neighbourizer or mason is more fun but I would have had WIM but you really never want to be IC at any rate because you’re basically an just an NK waiting to happen.

Also, Pooky v FL was ridiculously townsided. Town had disloyal cop, roaming doc, ungated vig and a supersaint enabler, while we had an alien, supersaint and 2 freaking goons ffs! lolololol

And Mastina, I don’t recall you calling that extremely townsided, which it clearly was.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Still though, good game.
Even if an loss is always bitter i had fun.

Sorry I was scum, you know I really didn’t want to be. I was extremely stressed out about NM ever since he said he was going to visit me, so I kept thinking how extremely unfair it would have been had my game been done and there was not a damn thing I could do to stop it because we couldn’t self-target, jk or rb him.

@Mastina, @nsg, you can ask Jingle. I seriously considered conceding after he informed us we couldn’t self-target.

[Nancy Drew 39]

The hydra did recover after their flub.

Nancy actually scumslipped on d3

I was planning on redacting this.

Now if I ever use that phrase, “Xmas came early,” people will autoassume this and I’ve used this expression as town as well.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I inferred that was town overconfidence in the game being solved.

I have actually done this as town but this time, I accidentally posted it here instead of the scum PT.

If I get miselimed saying this as town, remember this.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also DGB basically not playing and having no WIM whatsoever is probably directly correlated with them being given an confirmed town role. They didn't really care about the game because there was no threat to them and thus it was more boring to solve too.

Loyal neighbourizer or mason is more fun but I would have had WIM but you really never want to be IC at any rate because you’re basically an just an NK waiting to happen.

Also, Pooky v FL was ridiculously townsided. Town had disloyal cop, roaming doc, ungated vig and a supersaint enabler, while we had an alien, supersaint and 2 freaking goons ffs! lolololol

And Mastina, I don’t recall you calling that extremely townsided, which it clearly was.

You are both right.

<3

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well played nancy, koba, Gamma, NK. GG.

It was a win win for you in the end, grats.

<3

Ty

You were extremely impressive.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also game not scumsided imo. We just didn't think it through fast enough. Nancy you should have let Koba play more

Exactly! I think it’s clearly not because we could protect Gamma but he neither of us had the ability to protect us. Had NM been less obvious and visited us and we didn’t no kill, I think we likely would have lost.

I think the fact that you, House, me and even flipped jjh called Titus town, ought to have been enough for Mastina, nsg and Norwee to have reconsidered that read, especially since dgb locktowned her. Only reason I say that dgb kill didn’t confitown her was because she was confirmed tpr. In Heroes Wanted, I killed the slot that locktowned me only because they we’re probably the most dangerous tpr in mafia history. With Cyrus otoh, it made no sense for scum!him to have killed nom on N1.

Titus’ reaction to NK15 wagon spewed her town. It was extremely obvious that the really believed what she was saying. Scum!Titus in my experience wouldn’t be as obviously sincere about that,

[Nancy Drew 39]

Thanks for nodding Jingle. As always it was both fun and disturbing lol.

Someone should maybe nom this for post of the year.

[Nancy Drew 39]

The fault is the overly eager and impatient voting killers over here.

+1

This pretty much happens in every game, it’s rarely wise to rush elims - practically so close to end.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also some examples of possible normal roles

Although I'm pretty disappointed with the stump roles too

They lacked imagination

Weak babysitter
Loyal friendly neighbour
Jack Of All Trades 1-shot alien 1-shot babysitter 1-shot bodyguard 1-shot checker 1 shot activated bulletproof 1-shot cop 1-shot detective 1-shot doctor 1-shot follower 1-shot friendly neighbour 1-shot fruit vendor 1-shot gunsmith 1-shot jailkeeper 1 shot motion detector 1 shot mailman 1 shot neapolitan 1 shot neighbouriser 1 shot psychologist 1 shot PT cop 1 shot roleblocker 1 shot rolecop 1 shot rolestopper 1 shot role watcher 1 shot tracker 1 shot vanilla cop 1 shot voyeur 1 shot watcher

We would have loved weak babysitter.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Hey hydra and Gamma why didn't you guys hammer me?

Precisely because of the fact stumps had an ability.
If it was a vig shot we were screwed.

+1

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think that a good chunk of this setup was defined by elitism. Sure we got unlucky with the rand of NM getting the hider. Forcing a troll to play it straight was difficult for him.

People withheld information from those they scumread, putting them behind the eightball and preventing a changing of reads. No one really second guessed their reads but for me and jjh during the day we eliminated cyrus.

No one second guessed the gamma clear.

Pushing back on someone resulted in a scumread. Making the game full of cliques.

Oh 100%

The given POE of me, Moon, Titus, House was all town and the Cyrus wagon was my attempt to work together
An attempt that was foiled by House E-1ing and inviting NM to hammer before we got any real discussion time on this development, given, although NM should not be treated as some force of nature that we can all expect to lolhammer because he is a person who simply purposefully plays in a way that is bad for town and so as a consistent theme I continue to blame NM for the loss of this game

I think I would have continued to TR Gamma tbh because he still looked very towny regardless of the clear- but I also would have completely disregarded the clears after NM flipped.

Why though?

Our flip I get but why NM’s?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Just how did you bypass the clear?

Why the no kill?

How did the dual kill happen?

We didn’t no kill, we couldn’t kill NM N2 because he hid behind Mastina, Gamma was a N3 vig.

[Nancy Drew 39]

The mod errors.

The first one: I did not make it nearly clear enough that all town power was derived from the stumps. That was a major factor in the scumsiding of the setup.

The second one: I made multitasking default in the rules and did not take that into consideration while designing the roles, having forgotten about it. The N3 vig was explicitly intended to not be able to carry out both kills, but I had completely forgotten that they could via the rules set while examining balance.

The third one: The vig itself was non normal. Technically this wasn't outside of my setup rules (I was allowed to use non normal roles) but I very much intended to use only normal roles and included that as a solution to not seeking a normalcy review in the timeframe of a UPick when I myself rarely stick to the normal guidelines and frequently forget them, as I far prefer playing in the theme sandbox to build my setups.

The fourth one: There was an actual mod error that impacted the endgame. I missed M&M unvoting prior to the second to last VC and was unaware of this. It was brought to my attention after the flip had been posted, but I failed to catch it in my hammer count because I assumed the previous VC was accurate and did my standard double and triple checks using it as a base. I do not believe this would have changed the outcome of the game, but it was a major error.

Well NK15 would have been busted even if he had claimed his actual role then. Well had Gamma killed jjh and I killed dgb N3, it wouldn’t have changed anything.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Just how did you bypass the clear?

Why the no kill?

How did the dual kill happen?

Scum had a rolestopper who targeted Gamma, thus N_M's action never happened.

The no kill was an attempt to kill N_M directly, which obviously failed.

The three kill night was a N3 scum vig on DGB, a regular scum kill on jjh, and a guilty result from N_M hiding on M&M.

NM never hid behind us though, otherwise the 3 kill would have never happened.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well, if you had actually target JJ you would have died anyway.

NM couldn’t have died N3 if he had actually targeted, so he had to have visited jjh then.

[Nancy Drew 39]

On a whole, the experiment here failed, btw. I was hoping to change the townstumps paradigm to give the players more agency in choosing the stumps, thus making it less likely to fall into a toxic shitshow when the game started. Instead, the stump selection phase seemed to just be unfun for everyone. I do think nixing the idea of a mason hood for the stumps was a positive step as it made the emphasis shift back into the main thread and away from "This game is all about two people, the rest of you are seat warmers".

I will say that I think you went about choosing stumps entirely wrongly as I touched on in the dead thread. The general consensus was to choose the stumps on the strength of their reads, but all that really accomplishes is tying the stumps' hands behind their backs. They're respected because of their reads because they understand how people interacting with them and the game in general is likely to shape the game. I would have approached the stumps in one of three ways, in descending order of preference: Someone who had the skill and talent set to keep the people in the game interacting in a wholesome way (nomnomnom is the name that comes to mind), someone likely to leverage mechanics to town's advantage (jjh), or a N0 cop shot on someone who is very hard to read (N_M, Cyrus, Kori). I think Norwee and nsg are both bad choices by all three of those criteria (as would be the Nancy/Dk hydra and mastina FWIW) and that stumping them actively prevented them from having as meaningful an impact on the game as they would have as normal players.

Why would we have been a bad choice? We would have likely chosen decent roles and I actually won as town stump before. I would have selected a loyal neighbourize and strongwilled disloyal vig for the last shot.

I probably would have made jjh and Titus tprs or maybe Moon/Mastina. I think that both dgb. and NM we’re probably not the optimal stump candidates. Definitely jjh because he’d have utilized his role correctly.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Honestly, stumping someone because they're hard to read is basically just taking them out of the game

I wouldn't have listened to a word said by any of the players you listed in that category, Jingle

Cyrus having no meta on anyone would not have made him an optimal choice. I thought nsg like Bell is extremely easy to read and therefore not the best choice.

I think the stumps ought to have been decided pre-game, by pm’d votes. That was definitely the most unfun part of this.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh, and regardless of the scumsidedness of the setup itself, I definitely think scum earned this win with good play, let me be clear on that.

<3

Especially since I felt forced to play 3 D chess because of NM role.

[Nancy Drew 39]

So my idea for a game with a self destruct mechanism is that every player has a chance to self-destruct every night, with a maximum of 1 person dying that way. Then there would be an inventor (either alignment and off the grid) who could pass out 1-shot abilities, plus a town defuser(doc). Scum get a 1 shot rewire/redirect at night and a 2 shot vig. Adds a bit of excitement, needs to be large. Is this ridiculous? If not, could someone make it?

I’d sign up for that.