KTaNE [game over!]

[Menalque]

Non-consecutive night babysitter

doesn't that act as a vig most of the time

why aren't you vigging anything

Have I seemed a likely NK target on any night since like, N1?

[Menalque]

largely for postgame credit i'm gonna call ~1 scum in {frogster, VP, andante, bell} for this thing

This is a crumb

[Menalque]

As it is exactly the same as this post: Subject: Micro 909: 09:12 (Game Over!)

largely for postgame credit i'm gonna call ~1 scum in {emps,hh} for this thing

Emps. Real vote please.

-X

I legitimately don't know what you mean

I'm asking emps to place a real vote?
-X

[Menalque]

This is my crumbing meta, you’re just not familiar with it, CSF

I can go back and find examples from my past games if needed

[Menalque]

As for actions:

N1 sat on GL (Awks)

N3 sat on Baltar (Also awks, but in fairness I originally had Andres pencilled in until I realised he was defuser)

N5 sat on Andante

[Menalque]

VOTE: Mena


4 protectives with a backup protective in a game where scum dont even have 1 NK a night is yea no way.

If you flip me today, which would be exceptionally dumb given that again, my actions/play make considerably more sense from the lens of someone who has a PR and which I tied myself into a VERY specific claim for on D1 if I’m scum (which — why? Why would I do that especially after other protective claims? If scum I’d crumb multiple things and then not claim the protective when this many have flipped)

[Menalque]

Oh, I didn’t finish that thought — meant to end saying, if you do flip me today, remember how pooky immediately jumped on the opportunity despite the reasons above being enough for him to be able to see that I make much more sense as town than scum here

[Menalque]

I doubt there are 4 protectives

I actually speculated upon frog flip that datisi leaned heavily towards making this a protective heavy PR game, but gating them up

If I have time over the weekend I can try to find the game I think might have inspired him, it’s kind of reminiscent of a mini-normal I think we played ages ago

[Menalque]

Ooooh

VOTE: CSF

Lol my reads were dogshit this game

But okay, trading 1 for 1 is not so bad

[Menalque]

Once I flip then CSF tomorrow, andante doesn’t get touched the rest of the game, and poooky the day after CSF

[Menalque]

I’m assuming that scum plan is mislim me, use a NK, kill defuser which gives them 7 going into tomorrow

And then hope that pooky can win in 4p mylo (if he gets off two more kills) or 3p (if they’re low on NKs or there’s another protective somewhere)

[Menalque]

csf doesn't counterclaim as scum here that's absurd

I don’t see how CSF’s claim comes from town

No NK outside of titus

No way scum tried to kill me when I’m this mislimmable

I know I was on andy and Andy makes sense as a NK target due to the PR claim

No reason for scum to try to conserve NKs (that we know they have) atp due to Baltar being outed and it being unlikely they can get the defuse wincon anymore

[Menalque]

I will say this — if CSF is town then it’s probably pooky and ceph but game is over if scum just failed to NK and CSF did JK me last night

In any case, highest win% move is to lim CSF after me

[Menalque]

It would be nice if anyone wanted to, idk, look at my trajectory or play in light of my claim but that would be too much to hope for I guess

[Menalque]

Don’t think there’s really any way for me to jolt people into doing that without screaming at them, which I’m not willing to do so I guess just — work on your confbias in future games if you lim me today without looking back at my trajectory over the game

[Menalque]

Can people at least confirm that after I flip town, CSF goes tomorrow?

Unless someone wants to try and argue how CSF claiming to JK me fits with my (confirmed true post-flip) claim of being on Andy, and how that couples with no NK last night

[Menalque]

Who did you think was an obvious N1 kill who wasn’t defuser?

At the time I was unsure if the game was stacked with protectives or not, so I chose not to target Andres because I was having doubts about if he was real after the fire!flip

So I decided to sit on someone I thought was town, and who I believed I’d be able to synergise well with later in the game, and who would always be a solid N1 kill for scum if town

[Menalque]

can we just lim misty and let the prot claims sort themselves out tonight? like, we all agree Misty is maf, so we just lim misty. that easy

How do the protectiveclaims sort themselves?

Misty could be scum, but atp it should be basically confirmed that there’s scum in (me, CSF)

That’s a better % chance of hitting than flipping misty which is (2/9)

[Menalque]

I need to go back and count but p sure scum should have had 4 NKs throughout the game either way — either 1 from start, 2 from baltar, 1 from GL or 1 from two town defuses, no?

By the time that VPB posted that he knew he was likely going down, so I’m not putting a lot of stock in it as an actual slip, because I think scum were going for the 4 defuse wincon or at least leaving that open, which probably meant conserving some of the NKs from earlier on

[Menalque]

Oh, actually pooky is right, yeah

It’s (1/2) to flip in me/CSF
It’s (1/7) to flip misty

For any town player considering where to flip today

Unless, again, anyone has a good explanation for how CSF can be town with me and I don’t think there is one — the “scum we’re out of NKs” argument doesn’t add up for me with Baltar having defused twice already, where if scum had kept killing it would have been obvious very fast what was going on, and I think Baltar obviously didn’t want to die (based on play) instead of not caring (if it was just a matter of grab as many NKs from the defuses as possible)

[Menalque]

Ah right, so scum had 3 maybe 4 but probably 3

Hmm

[Menalque]

Why didn’t you claim lazy when you claimed CSF?

[Menalque]

I mean, obviously I’m thinking about it or I wouldn’t be asking?

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Because if misty is town, then it’s weird for scum you to derail that mislim into me when that then sets you up for dying tomorrow

Oh, but then again, I wonder if your ability to win the 1v1 based on claim becomes much weaker tomorrow because people would ask why you didn’t counterclaim immediately and then I become less viable as a mislim

Whereas misty will always be there with plenty of people wanting to kill her, so maybe it does make sense for scum!you

[Menalque]

But on D2 after fire flipped town, you *still* thought Andres was town???

That was after everyone in the hood had claimed he was insanely town, and I came round to the “i think dats has stacked the game with protectives for most of town power” way of thinking

[Menalque]

Momentum is not a good thing in and of itself

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For fuck’s sake

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THINK for a hot second

If misty!town — I’m not convinced of that, but if — then tomorrow is quite possibly lylo with a potential 1v1 happening where I know both that I’m town and that I probably lose said 1v1 which is GG

Does anyone really think that misty is getting away today through some magical leap? The only way misty isn’t limmed today is probably if we lim in me/CSF which then, again probably but this is why to not rush, nets a 100% scum lim tomorrow (if I go first today)

[Menalque]

Momentum is not a good thing in and of itself

I wasn’t saying it was.
If anything it’s just me being intellectually lazy and not wanting to have to deal with this madness and just defaulting to previous patterns. Because I can’t cope.

Okay, but unfortunately there is a very good chance town loses if we don’t try to resolve some of this pre-lylo to work out what the best potential form of that would be

I want to go back and look at the SM flip again and what was happening around that

I also need to go through CSF again because she’s been one of my strongest TRs most of the game and I think the claim means she has to be scum but if GL is town then maybe scum are out of NKs and then JK can conbine with the babysit and the lack of NK

[Menalque]

I wonder what kind of OP role Misty has.

Yes, I’m clearly doing this because misty is a N6 super vig who gets to target 8 players on N6 and that’s why I’m so desperate to not rush into her lim

Bravo CSF, your genius insight foils me once again

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I really do think the nominating defuser thing is a scum slip. See 5344.

I’m probably being very paranoid here but why is the post tag broken

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THIS IS GENIUS

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i can't possibly imagine scum!CSF making 5344

that is a work of art

You utter troll

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Ah, mena. Bad cat.
Oog.

If it’s cross posting from scum PT that’s always been a legit thing to point out afaik and not considered as oog influence

If it can be caused by something else then I have no idea what, or if it’s no longer acceptable to point out broken tags due to cross posting then uh *shrug* my bad

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1.) Just seeming like scum and 2.) Having terrible associatives with the flipped scum.

(1) can we get a “CONFIRMATION BIAS” a little louder from the back please! (2) if you would apply an ounce of critical reasoning to this you would see that it’s not true

[Menalque]

Misty, what do you think of the whole CSF thing? Definite scum CC or am I discounting the possibility of a fucky NA situation due to scum being low on kills

It just seems very unlikely to me that scum wouldn’t have been saving kills for post Baltar flip

[Menalque]

Ah, mena. Bad cat.
Oog.

If it’s cross posting from scum PT that’s always been a legit thing to point out afaik and not considered as oog influence

If it can be caused by something else then I have no idea what, or if it’s no longer acceptable to point out broken tags due to cross posting then uh *shrug* my bad

I did this once and they flipped town actually it was a convoluted reason. I thought they fixed it though. It’s been brought up in the past, I clearly remember those that could do something about it being informed.

Okay I’ll drop it and you can explain postgame

[Menalque]

Misty, what do you think of the whole CSF thing? Definite scum CC or am I discounting the possibility of a fucky NA situation due to scum being low on kills

It just seems very unlikely to me that scum wouldn’t have been saving kills for post Baltar flip

i think the analysis of "4 protectives would not exist in a setup with limited scum kills" is accurate

and i think jailkeeper doesn't match the power level as well

Why? That seems like exactly the trolly shit I can see dats enjoying, and as I mentioned I actually played a game with him that leant in that direction and could have served as inspiration for the setup power

Also why on jk? If she’s lazy then she’s essentially named townie by the lategame, and I don’t think JK is that much stronger than doc/babysitter (probably more than bodyguard)

[Menalque]

Actually, yeah — CSF, claim your targets for N1-N4

[Menalque]

Huh

I thought you were a real 2020 join date

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Andy
Dwlee
Enchant
Bell

^ i feel good about all this being town


Mistyx, GL, Ceph, CSF <— this is the problematic section for me as it stands

\/ feel good abou this being scum

Pooky

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Bell, can you please ask CSF to name all her targets?

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I was a player called Remembrance before. Took long (4-5 year?) hiatus during undergrad. Returned as bell when covid hit.

Oh, gotcha. Was just wondering if you were someone I’d played with before under a different name but who’d transitioned to a new account for whatever reason

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CSF, what does town possibly stand to lose from you claiming targets?

[Menalque]

something something DGB, something soemthing true claims take a second fakeclaims take forever

[Menalque]

You know that you don’t need the post id number right?

You just do

Code: Select all

[post]NUMBER OF POST HERE[/post]

and it will auto fill the first “[post]” tag with the absolute/forum #id for the post

[Menalque]

Okay, CSF scum

CSF, if you’re town, then you need to fucking think about things regarding how you play in the postgame, but that’s a conversation for us to have there if it needs to be had

[Menalque]

Namely: doing petty bullshit like refusing to claim targets because you have a SR on the person who is asking you to do so is not alright as town unless you’re trying to obfuscate whether you have shots left — which you’re clearly not, because you’re not claiming a shot limit

[Menalque]

something something DGB, something soemthing true claims take a second fakeclaims take forever

I claimed like right away after you said you were protective though

Yes but claiming a role is one thing and claiming a convincing set of targets that make sense with your thought process for each night in the game is another entirely

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Note: as soon as I was asked I posted mine and have had 0 problem explaining immediately why I went for each target each night when asked for clarification or further information

[Menalque]

Your inability/unwillingness to do so is Not A Good Look

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I want people to remember this tomorrow post my flip when deciding what to do and when there is probably some ridiculous move led by pooky to lim misty > CSF

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In the meantime I’m going to try to sleep a few more hours, I fell asleep super early and woke up in the middle of the night but I just started yawning again

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lol I think I know where this is going, and I'll solve this right now, I hardclaim VT, I was trying to draw a night kill

jhc

[Menalque]

Andante

Lying about having a PR to draw the NK — eh, pretty fair, can work out decently

Lying about having results to influence the lim — not cool, liable to v often end in disaster and broadly disrespectful to your fellow players

[Menalque]

Okay, before we lim misty I wanna talk about pooky. Does anyone read him as town, if so why?

Here’s his basic trajectory re: Baltar
D1: v sus
N1: has the opportunity to kill Baltar, talks about doing it, then just kinda backs down and chills out and is happy to go along with it when the mood from the other three of us is more towards letting Baltar solve
D2: uh I don’t remember súper well but not worried about Baltar really i think?
N2: Baltar gets picked as defuser
D3: I say “we probably need to kill baltar to be safe” and pooky hard shoots that idea down, goes in to bat and provides reasons why Baltar probably isn’t scum and we should keep letting him defuse
N3: Andres dies
D4: pooky suggests VPB town and probably only scum if SM scum and he’s bussing, soft defending VPB and just going along with the maj take
EoD4: SM town
D5: mood of game clearly towards limming VPB, pooky reverses again and is now down for it

[Menalque]

Now, lets look at my rough trajectory and how it’s different

D1: not really engaged with VPB, neutral, looking elsewhere
N1: push to not have VPB killed due to general mechanics and SH inspo for setup (yes, this looks kinda bad)
D2: soften on Baltar — note in my PT tells me that I liked how cooperative he was on N1 and even as I was aware that wasn’t a good basis for a TR, slipped into it anyway as he continued to be reasonable and helpful fmpov
N2: baltar is defuser
D3: suggest we need to kill him, not because of a shift in my read but bc he’s been defuser twice and I feel like we can’t risk him being scum
N3: Andres dies, scum confirmed in dwlee/strange/VPB — decide to trust my reads (lol) where I don’t like how absent SM has been, dwlee soft angling against me, and decide to trust (lol) my positive feelings on Baltar
D4: defense baltar, back limming the other two
N4: SM has flipped town
D5: Baltar clearly the more popular lim — choose to stick to my read and defend him while going after dwlee, until he makes an awful fakeclaim that’s not believable with what he posted on N1

[Menalque]

Question for anyone thinking I’m scum: why do I tie myself to my buddy on D5 when he’s so clearly going down anyway? If I’m hard committing to this, and willing to fake a PR claim (which you must believe me willing to do bc you think that’s what I’m doing today) then why not claim yesterday and claim a result to help Baltar survive, if I’m already hard committing to him?

Why hammer him at end of day when it weakens my possible defense of “sorry was stuck in a bad tunnel on dwlee”/try to maintain consistency there?

For today for those saying I make sense as scum with misty — if that were the team, and I’d just seen myself get shit for trying to save my buddy baltar, why in fuck would I not be all guns blazing for misty today when it would be that team comp’s ONLY hope of winning?

[Menalque]

I've skimmed through the thread and I have gathered CSF/Mena CC each other,

Not exactly, we kind of do and at a minimum if CSF is real then my protecc didn’t go off on Andy last night which means that scum didn’t use a NK (unless it was on me and uh, lol to that theory)

Re: the CSF tinfoil. I think it’s reasonable as an inference and probably does give slightly +odds of scum but I also know that in my case it’s just me being a dumbass who p much always skims setups

If you still think I’m scum GL, then I’d love you to try and answer the questions posed in the posts directly above yours when you have some time.

I also would very much like to talk about pooky and get some answers on that, specifically the fact that while my positioning on Baltar may have been ~bad~, sure, it’s not *strategic* for shit whereas pooky’s positioning is *very strategic*

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

[Menalque]

HEAL: dwlee

[Menalque]

Hey tweet, u town?

Hey titus, how you been?

Tweet is Mistyx. Shortly followed up by doing a similar thing to Titus. Possible self-consciousness that he just had a weird interaction with a partner and should do the same to a townie?

How about dragging your head out of the tunnel that is your ass and responding to ANY OF THE POINTS I MADE ABOUT WHY I’M NOT SCUM

[Menalque]

Jesús Christ dwlee, have you heard of the concept of reading posts in their totality to get a view on mindset instead of cherrypicking quotes and then speculating about why they were made or is that a concept that eludes you?

[Menalque]

IF I AM SCUM

Then I have to have decided to: crumb only one role, and it’s one that happens to fit with what we know about setup balance

Not bothered to crumb any other possible fakeclaims for lategame me as scum, when there’s no reason not to have other available backup claims as more setup info is revealed

Taken positioning on Baltar that as various points *just makes me look bad and does not help me longer term*

Decided that despite being willing to try hardish this game, as I am today, that I would wait until AFTER incriminating myself through partner interactions to do so, instead of, oh, idk, claiming a PR result to try and defend or hardbus, either of which would have given me better optics for today

There’s also my actions that make considerably more sense viewed through the lens of being a town PR: hammering fire on D1, deciding to just rofl your case because I foolishly somehow assumed that a modicum of critical thought would be applied in this game and that my PR along with early crumb would make me very obvious town

[Menalque]

Okay, before we lim misty I wanna talk about pooky. Does anyone read him as town, if so why?

Here’s his basic trajectory re: Baltar
D1: v sus
N1: has the opportunity to kill Baltar, talks about doing it, then just kinda backs down and chills out and is happy to go along with it when the mood from the other three of us is more towards letting Baltar solve
D2: uh I don’t remember súper well but not worried about Baltar really i think?
N2: Baltar gets picked as defuser
D3: I say “we probably need to kill baltar to be safe” and pooky hard shoots that idea down, goes in to bat and provides reasons why Baltar probably isn’t scum and we should keep letting him defuse
N3: Andres dies
D4: pooky suggests VPB town and probably only scum if SM scum and he’s bussing, soft defending VPB and just going along with the maj take
EoD4: SM town
D5: mood of game clearly towards limming VPB, pooky reverses again and is now down for it

Question for anyone thinking I’m scum: why do I tie myself to my buddy on D5 when he’s so clearly going down anyway? If I’m hard committing to this, and willing to fake a PR claim (which you must believe me willing to do bc you think that’s what I’m doing today) then why not claim yesterday and claim a result to help Baltar survive, if I’m already hard committing to him?

Why hammer him at end of day when it weakens my possible defense of “sorry was stuck in a bad tunnel on dwlee”/try to maintain consistency there?

For today for those saying I make sense as scum with misty — if that were the team, and I’d just seen myself get shit for trying to save my buddy baltar, why in fuck would I not be all guns blazing for misty today when it would be that team comp’s ONLY hope of winning?

All of this

[Menalque]

Andante

Lying about having a PR to draw the NK — eh, pretty fair, can work out decently

Lying about having results to influence the lim — not cool, liable to v often end in disaster and broadly disrespectful to your fellow players

Want to tell me what “results” I gave that actually influenced anything? After I said something about strange not doing a NK, the way strange responded was extremely towny to me. I purposely didn’t hard clear, and guess what, yall still limmed Strange anyways… Dwlee thing? votes were already going to VP anyways, I didn’t change that. So want to tell me how I lied about stuff to influence a lim? At no point what I did was a liability, and I’m even coming clean now to help in the solving part… so no… nothing I did was disrespectful to my fellow players.

We can talk about it in post

[Menalque]

im really obviously town and also like the only person defending you like dude

Being the only person defending me has come from scum as often as it’s come from town when I’ve been in a position where I needed defending

[Menalque]

I have nothing to say other than it would be lovely if in future you (collective) could address the multiple points on why I don't make sense as scum before limming me, instead of looking at them after the fact and going "oh yeah, he had a point actually"

[Menalque]

Andy
Dwlee
Enchant
Bell

^ i feel good about all this being town


Mistyx, GL, Ceph, CSF <— this is the problematic section for me as it stands

\/ feel good abou this being scum

Pooky

im really obviously town and also like the only person defending you like dude

Cephrir has been killed night 6. he was a

DATS Inc. vanilla employee

.

Spoiler:

welcome,

Cephrir

! you are a

DATS Inc. vanilla employee

, a part of this game's uninformed majority.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win conditions:

~ you win when all GB Inc. infiltrators are dead and at least one DATS Inc. employee is alive.
~ alternatively, you win when DATS Inc. employees act as successful bomb defusers 8 times.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

the sun rises. it is now day 7.

yes, this is a kill I would make as scum

[Menalque]

anyway, I guess I do have something to say

Pooky -> GL -> Bell -> Enchant -> CSF -> Dwlee99 -> Andante

is the order I'd suggest limming in once I flip town. pooky is still the most likely scum by a long shot imo, and I hope that y'all will give some consideration to my point on how his trajectory on VPB is actually awful once you look at it in contrast with a town trajectory (i.e. mine)

GL is normally very reasonable and is being distinctly non-reasonable/uninterested in trying to unconfbias which is why he's the second in the list

honestly everyone else I TR, but I think I have the least good actual reasons for townreading Enchant or Bell if by some miracle the game isn't over after pooky/GL lims. could probably reverse those two as well, but it's tricky. I would have put Enchant as a lim ahead of Bell, but something about Bell's "giant arrow" comment really rubs me the wrong way and made me flip them back

final shoutout: if dwlee does flip scum and the whole thing with VPB was elaborate theatre then, honestly, kudos

[Menalque]

give me a second to grab my charger and order food, then I can respond @GL

[Menalque]

okay, so I'm not gonna quote, I'm just gonna run through the points:

The Crumb

1671 is a crumb because it is an exact quote (with names changed, obviously) of ducky in this post from a game of 9:12 that Datisi ran back in late 2019 into 2020. ducky's role that game? babysitter. this is an established crumbing meta that I have, and I can find other games where I crumbed in the same way if you'd like. off the top of my head, Pokemon u-pick from 2019 is one of them.

that should also answer your other question -- how can you know that my other posts

aren't

hidden crumbs? well, simply put, you can run them through the search function. I wouldn't try to rely on anything not crumbed D1, so there's not actually that many to do. you can also, if worried, look at them for other forms of crumbing like first letters of words or allusions to pop culture, but you won't find anything because there's nothing there.

Baltar

I've already gone into this and would refer you back to 5447, but essentially -- it makes very little sense for me to take the approach I did if I'm Baltar's partner. Either I would have committed to bussing him -- and for actual reasons, I might add, not just "I'm worried because he's been defuser twice" -- or I would have hard committed on defending him throughout. one thing I don't tend to do with my partners is position myself so that I neither get credit for bussing if they're going down, nor have any chance of the WIFOMy "so wrong he couldn't be this blatant about it" approach.

WIM

Simply put, I'm a lot busier than I used to be. I'm trying to juggle a social life, 5 hours of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, reading, and teaching 19 hours of class plus prep. I just don't have the same time that I used to, and frankly D2/D3 were kinda boring and I didn't feel I had much to say when I was around. The reason I' able to post now is I just tested positive for covid (sarcastic "woo!") so I'm now isolating in my room the next few days.

Misc

But he wasn't unclaimed? I hammered BECAUSE of the claim, as I believed andres and was sceptical at the time of there being more protectives than the two. Fire was consistently a scum read for me, so I thought he was just trying to copy andres to save himself.

Taking cases seriously has, I'm not sure ever been a thing I've done unless I've felt it necessary, and again, I assumed that in this game a lot more credence would be given to both my role/crumb and the way that fits with how I've been looking at the game/the actions I've taken. I don't think I'm obvtown like I used to be when I'd have about 800 posts at this point and probably would have flown off the handle at dwlee for continuing to push me in this way, but my argument is rather than being obviously town, I think I've done things that would be pretty clear and avoidable misplays for me as scum/neglected to do things that would have been greatly to my benefit, and unless you think I wouldn't have realised those at the time, I think that's pretty strong evidence for why I'm town here

[Menalque]

okay, so I'm not gonna quote, I'm just gonna run through the points:

The Crumb

1671 is a crumb because it is an exact quote (with names changed, obviously) of ducky in this post from a game of 9:12 that Datisi ran back in late 2019 into 2020. ducky's role that game? babysitter. this is an established crumbing meta that I have, and I can find other games where I crumbed in the same way if you'd like. off the top of my head, Pokemon u-pick from 2019 is one of them.

that should also answer your other question -- how can you know that my other posts

aren't

hidden crumbs? well, simply put, you can run them through the search function. I wouldn't try to rely on anything not crumbed D1, so there's not actually that many to do. you can also, if worried, look at them for other forms of crumbing like first letters of words or allusions to pop culture, but you won't find anything because there's nothing there.

Baltar

I've already gone into this and would refer you back to 5447, but essentially -- it makes very little sense for me to take the approach I did if I'm Baltar's partner. Either I would have committed to bussing him -- and for actual reasons, I might add, not just "I'm worried because he's been defuser twice" -- or I would have hard committed on defending him throughout. one thing I don't tend to do with my partners is position myself so that I neither get credit for bussing if they're going down, nor have any chance of the WIFOMy "so wrong he couldn't be this blatant about it" approach.

WIM

Simply put, I'm a lot busier than I used to be. I'm trying to juggle a social life, 5 hours of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, reading, and teaching 19 hours of class plus prep. I just don't have the same time that I used to, and frankly D2/D3 were kinda boring and I didn't feel I had much to say when I was around. The reason I' able to post now is I just tested positive for covid (sarcastic "woo!") so I'm now isolating in my room the next few days.

Misc

But he wasn't unclaimed? I hammered BECAUSE of the claim, as I believed andres and was sceptical at the time of there being more protectives than the two. Fire was consistently a scum read for me, so I thought he was just trying to copy andres to save himself.

Taking cases seriously has, I'm not sure ever been a thing I've done unless I've felt it necessary, and again, I assumed that in this game a lot more credence would be given to both my role/crumb and the way that fits with how I've been looking at the game/the actions I've taken. I don't think I'm obvtown like I used to be when I'd have about 800 posts at this point and probably would have flown off the handle at dwlee for continuing to push me in this way, but my argument is rather than being obviously town, I think I've done things that would be pretty clear and avoidable misplays for me as scum/neglected to do things that would have been greatly to my benefit, and unless you think I wouldn't have realised those at the time, I think that's pretty strong evidence for why I'm town here

[Menalque]

I have nothing to say other than it would be lovely if in future you (collective) could address the multiple points on why I don't make sense as scum before limming me, instead of looking at them after the fact and going "oh yeah, he had a point actually"

You defended baltar. You defended misty and appeared to be arguing at a more urgent tone than someone coming off a scum elim would be by pushing other eliminations. It’s just a burden of proficiency. One mistake is fine. Two major ones with obvious intentionality to both I just think, probably scum. It depends on the player.
But you are one where I think it’s valid.
I suppose the fact you didn’t concede points heavily away from you being scum. But I am not negotiating with the past. I wanna be clear you can’t really change my mind here. Just give us who are scum if you have an idea.

I never concede, so that should be very null for me. I probably wouldn't make any effort at all if I were scum though.

And I mean, I see what your argument is but I think there's some huge holes -- I defended Baltar

when he was clearly going down

. I pushed for a misty lim for most of the game and then when the tide started swinging there I started arguing for a pooky lim -- if I'm final scum, who

knows

my buddy is going down, how does it make sense to reverse stance there and try to save her?

For me to be scum, I have to have been acting against my own longterm interests, when it would have been clear to me from D5 that I was going to have to be the one to try and endgame. I think my play could make sense as scum who was willing to get their hands dirty and burn themselves for the team, but I don't think it makes any sense as scum who is trying to win in final 3.

[Menalque]

Also: if pooky is scum, then it's only one mistake-mistake, and the second is a case of bad timing.

[Menalque]

and also I still fail to see why scum!Pooky wouldn't have just blown me up on N4. Scum has been really hurting for NKs/explosions, it would have been easy for him to say "GL isn't townie, I'm not going to help defuse" and not face any major consequences, especially once I claimed VT in the hood. why keep me alive instead?

I think intentionally killing anyone is going to bring heat, and I stand by the fact that you weren't nearly suspected enough at that point for it to be something he could get away with openly. And if he did it quietly, probably knowing at that point that he was going to have to try and endgame, then it would heavily close the pool after his buddies died.

[Menalque]

I hope you understand why you kinda have to die even if you're town here though

this argument is never true, and if I can find the time/energy I'll try to look for the NSG post where she explains why far more eloquently than I could

[Menalque]

Baltar had a tremendous number of associatives and everything up to that point, showed he was a fighter with high activity.
It was not good for the scum team that he didn’t manage 2-miselims to his one.

I don't see the relevance of this to my argument?

[Menalque]

HEAL: bell
HEAL: andante
HEAL: enchant

VOTE: pooky

seeing as I know the game is not gonna end, and there seems to be moderate consensus that pooky is susp provided I'm not scum, could we at least do me the solid of not picking him for the expert squad tonight

[Menalque]

give me a minute, my Taco Bell just got here

[Menalque]

hmm hmmm hmm

that crumb is a lot better than I had realized

why is Enchant town in your book Menalque? and Andante your strongest TR? I TR Andante but I don't think she's the slot I'd bet the game on being town, her associatives with a lot of the flipped scum aren't especially clearing IMO

yes, that much is evident from the way you were posting about it originally lol

I've just.... really jived with Enchant's posting throughout the game? idk, that may not be a good thing given how miscalibrated I was on Baltar for a while, but uhhh, it is how it is. to put it this way: I'm open to being wrong on Enchant and that I've just been completely duped, but I strongly feel that the slot is towny.

Andante is town for mostly two reasons, and sort of a third. Firstly, I'm trusting the reads from the first neighbourhood that have all been town so far and seemed totally convinced of Andy town. Secondly, the whole fake JOAT claim to try and ensure that dwlee lived and baltar died, plus to save strange. I find that an almost bizarre and unnecessarily attention-drawing play for scum!Andy, and in such a way that would go directly against her wincon. The third, semi-reason is that past!mena seemed to think she was town, but I didn't write down why and now I don't remember. so it may have been heavily based on reason one and it's a tautology, but I'm willing to roll with prior!me's reads a bit

Sure. @the concede thing. I feel you might be saltier too.

eh, maybe, but I'd like to think the salt is something that mostly goes on my food nowadays

To the crumb thing, look at this post where scum had crumbed joat super early and I lost because I put too much stock in it: viewtopic.php?p=13243775#p13243775

okay, sure, I'm not saying don't lim me purely bc of the claim. I'm barely even saying don't lim me, although I'd prefer to do pooky first. I'm saying that the claim is (1) an excellent fit with the setup, that I seemingly happened to chance onto if scum (2) the only crumb I set up, despite the fact that for scum!me having contingency claims would be a good idea (3) is highly consistent with other actions I've taken and the way I've played the game (e.g. hammering fire immediately, not bothering to take your case seriously at all because I thought the claim would be a get-out-of-jail free card)

Further arguing with a dead cat: Misty had an ability that secures 3 eliminations and had by far the most powerful role in the scum team, I hope.

either you're seriously misunderstanding what misty's role was, or I am, and I don't

think

it's me

could we at least do me the solid of not picking him for the expert squad tonight

I don't see how being on the "expert squad" actually matters atp

experts can kill defuser, if defuser is towny then we want that to not happen easily

i lowkey actually do think maybe he just waves a white flag here and concedes if he's actually lone!scum which is kind of gross but he has mentioned playing against wincon on purpose multiple times in the past

uh, pooky, I've never conceded a game in my life when playing solo on mena -- I think I've agreed to concede for the sake of hydra partners once or twice. I'm also not sure I've talked about playing against wincon in the past, although I've certainly said that "I hope town loses" or stuff to that effect when very salty. do you have, uh,

any

receipts of me doing that, because it sounds a loooooot like you're just making shit up from here

like the thing with him pushing me is.

I can totally see him actually being paranoid of me if he's like town cuz dude is fucking terrified of scum!me since I've like eaten him multiple times.

and like I don't think it actually makes sense for him to do this shit!push on me as like cornered scum cuz the odds scum!him actually flips me here is pretty fucking low and like after I flip town where the fuck is he going to go? try to get 2 more misflips?

seems like a tall fucking task ngl

(1) it's not a shitpush

(2) I'm not terrified of scum!you, although I do respect your abilities as a scum player

(3) I'm aware that I probably don't get you flipped today -- my main aim is to try and make sure that if I am flipped today that you go tomorrow. if I'm wrong on you you can call me a poopoo head in the dead thread and we can try to work out the final scum together

at the same time, I still think CSF's case on the scum team all not understanding the nomination of experts vs defusers is weirdly compelling

did Menalque ever explain the "I wanna be defuser" comment?

I didn't! the answer is that I p much always skim setups initially and got mixed up about it!

I know it's not a good look given how the flipped scum also all did that, but it's one of those unfortunate coincidences

[Menalque]

question: does anyone else think I'm shitpushing pooky as they read my posts here?

[Menalque]

As for actions:

N1 sat on GL (Awks)

N3 sat on Baltar (Also awks, but in fairness I originally had Andres pencilled in until I realised he was defuser)

N5 sat on Andante

@bell

[Menalque]

it was mostly that I thought he's generally a solid NK target and someone I wanted to play with/hoped that I'd be able to work with later on in the game

plus I couldn't target catboi as he was defuser, and after the fire flip I wasn't sure if andres was town or had fakeclaimed

[Menalque]

looking back at notes, I also considered frog but, and I wish I could quote here, said something along the lines of "I think he's town but based on d1 I think it might be overall better for the game if he dies" and uh, well

what do you mean? oh, I didn't think I was gonna got shot n1 or any other night so I've been using my babysit purely as a slightly risky protecc

[Menalque]

I did not crumb the checks, just the role. I kinda meant to but because I haven't been around a load I generally didn't decide who I was gonna be on until during night each time

how would it have verified andres as being the doc?

[Menalque]

I, for one, am glad Dunn is not here because he always wishes to kill me regardless of my alignment

[Menalque]

*pats head*

[Menalque]

you're trying and that's the important bit

[Menalque]

also fuckin' dad-eeeeeeeeee

[Menalque]

You could arguably use it to identify town by seeing if nobody died that night.

Also, just a neat thought but what if you were a scum babysitter that could take someone with you if the town blew you up.

er, maybe? but I'll be honest, even with you saying that right here I'm still not sure how that would work

also, that is a neat thought! just sadly not a reality that we live in

***

kinda might as well, yeah

[Menalque]

prettttty sure everyone just claims vanilla from here though

[Menalque]

uh, pooky, I've never conceded a game in my life when playing solo on mena -- I think I've agreed to concede for the sake of hydra partners once or twice. I'm also not sure I've talked about playing against wincon in the past, although I've certainly said that "I hope town loses" or stuff to that effect when very salty. do you have, uh, any receipts of me doing that, because it sounds a loooooot like you're just making shit up from here

the last time I played vs scum!you was Tarot and you basically told Gamma to concede afair

No, that was our slot who told Gamma to concede, and it was out of consideration for skitt because we were playing in a hydra.

I feel like the only person who would kill Cephrir here is Menalque. Does anyone have a refutation of that?

uh. whut lol

I mean I have the sarky refutation of "well clearly someone would because they did" but mostly I have no idea of what logic you're following to think that I and only I would kill ceph?

[Menalque]

and if I'd killed you as scum then my defence would have been "that's way too blatant a kill for me to make, therefore I'm town"

if I were scum I could spin it either way, and yes, I have made kills on people who townread me before when I've been scum but generally speaking not when they are the only person who doesn't want me dead. I would have been about 500% better off if I were scum killing you, then appealing to reason to everyone else, and hoping that ceph would back me up

or do you disagree with that assessment?

[Menalque]

you're confbiasing so hard, dwlee

what do you expect town!me to do? go "that's a kill I'd make as scum" in response to seeing the ceph flip?

[Menalque]

I'm still not sure if anyone has said why they think pooky is town btw, or if anyone has said that

[Menalque]

any scum that is not me distinctly benefits from you staying alive because they are aware that you are horrendously tunnelled on me

ceph was a broadly towny slot who I think only I was expressing any doubts about in the first place?

[Menalque]

let me try to put it this way:

if I am scum, let's say that I score a relatively arbitrary number of made-up "survival points" based on my night kills. if I kill you, the person most deadset on my death, I gain +10 survival points. if I kill ceph, I get to make the WIFOM argument that it hurts my chances of winning, and I gain +5 points.

but for

any other player

they gain let's say +20 survival points for killing any player that is not dwlee because they know that dwlee is highly likely to continue to tunnel me to death on D7. therefore any scum that is not me has at least as much motivation to kill ceph or andante or bell or CSF last night, because all of those are very likely to lead to the promising scenario of you murdering me today. does that make sense?

[Menalque]

or phased slightly differently: you're putting way too much emphasis on the fact that it

was ceph

when the actually relevant point is that it was

not dwlee

who was night killed

[Menalque]

I'll consider it

tis all I ask of ye

anyway, I guess I do have something to say

Pooky -> GL -> Bell -> Enchant -> CSF -> Dwlee99 -> Andante

Did you already explain why Enchant is so high up?

---

How do you crumb as scum?

And tbh, I'm still confused why you would think GuiltyLion or VPB were going to be nightkilled. GuiltyLion wasn't even townread enough Day 1 to be healed as one of

eight

experts

and in a hypothetical world where VPB was town, he was never going to be nightkilled, because scum wanted him alive for the WIFOM (since he had defused 2 bombs).

I did, although it can basically be summarised as "gut", see 5583. I'm gonna try to re-read there today bc I realised that part of the reason I liked their posting was bc they seemed to have the same takes as me re: stuff like "Baltar is town" which, depending on their progression around it, may not be as towny as I thought at the time

uh, full disclosure I often don't crumb as scum, but when I do I do it the same way I do as town -- normally by finding the same role and then quoting a post that's similar to the way I normally speak exactly from someone who had that role. sometimes I will crumb in other ways like first or third letter of words or whatever, but that's normally too much work for me and I think easier to spot because it often leads to unnatural sounding sentences (at least from me)

GL I feel like I've explained multiple times already? I'm not the best at choosing NK targets, but a lot of how I choose is based on my own opinions and who I would pick if I were scum. meaning no disrespect to anybody else, GL is absolutely in the best 3 town players in this PL for me. the other two are pooky and catboi. catboi I couldn't protect because he was defuser, and pooky I had reservations on being town. GL seemed decently town, a high threat to scum if allowed to live, and as a bonus is someone I like and wanted to play with later. GL and I haven't actually had many games together where we've both been town, but I always had the impression that we'd probably jam well together if we did (and maybe we did roll town together once and it went okay, but not sure on that)

VPB uh, yeah, bad protecc -- he seemed town to me at that point, I was kinda into the "well scum made him defuser to try and get him killed bc of paranoia and so now they've failed they might just shoot him" but the bigger reason is that I initially tried to protect andres, then realised that he was defuser when very hungover and on my way to the bus station to travel to Valencia, and panicked and just went for the first person who came to mind

Also Mena, I feel like your read on VP is all over the place:

<...>
My current reads:

town: Andante, Greeting, Andres, GL, Bell, CSF, Ceph

null: VP Baltar
<...>

you were nullreading him coming into Day 2 (although I distinctly recall you saying he was towny in the PT later... maybe during Day 5? I'll see if I can dig up the post later)

My current reads (update):

town: Andante, Greeting, Andres, GL, Bell, CSF, Ceph, VP Baltar, enchant
<...>

what happened between these two posts?

I feel like your arguments "why would I do xyz was scum here?" aren't that convincing because for a large part of the game, it did feel like you were trying to just divert from scum lims and it just didn't swing in your favor.

between those two I talked with greeting who said they thought enchant was town. I had been equivocating on the slot because I felt like I liked the posting but couldn't actually attribute any reasons for why it was explicitly town posting. similar thing with Baltar, where I thought his posting was

technically

null but I

liked

it anyway. greeting saying that they thought enchant was town made me feel more confident in trusting those feelings even if I couldn't articulate the reasons, and so I kinda said fuck it on baltar. this is also all my best remembrance, CSF, which is imperfect

okay, re: the "why would I do xyz" arguments, I think you're skipping over a large part of the context of that argument. you're right -- there's been two points in the game where I explicitly pushed against a scum lim, once in favour of what would have v likely been a town lim, one time against what I still think is quite likely another scum lim but sure, against limming the scum that we now have flipped. my point is more this: were misty/VPB likely to get away or endgame in the long term of the game in your opinion? VPB was guaranteed dead even if dwlee went through first. the idea that misty wouldn't have gone before Elo is ridiculous imo. that means that there were 3 scum left, including me, and I was the

only viable endgaming scum

I can be accused of plenty of things as scum: bad tone, lack of WIM, questionable night kills. but one thing I absolutely don't think anyone can accuse me of is not playing strategically to try and win the game (maybe slight exception in cases where the game is already clearly lost and I've gotten overly salty about it in the past). you can look at my past scum PTs -- even from N1, I'm normally trying to plot out a route to winning in elo, whether that be 7p, 5p, or 3p. my argument is this: as the only scum player of the hypothetical team you're talking about who

could have reasonably won the game for scum

why would my play be to openly protect my partners and pray that the WIFOM of "why would I openly try to protect my partners" is enough to carry me through to 3p where I'm going to magically convince someone not to lim me and flip town instead. especially when, despite having had this argument in games before where I've been misflipped, I

still got misflipped in those games and know that the argument of "why would I give myself bad optics" is often unconvincing

. it would be a

hell of a lot easier

for scum!mena who is trying to win to just bus the fuck out of baltar and then to keep up my bus stance on misty -- who I'd been advocating for limming for the vast majority of the game

[Menalque]

tl;dr

if:

(1) to believe I am scum with the revealed scum team thus far you have to believe that I have been playing at least the last two days in a way that is not conducive to scum winning the game

and

(2) I play to win the game as scum, even when the odds are against me

then

(3) it therefore follows logically that I am not scum

[Menalque]

I'm really confused by what scum were doing on N2

so scum's swapping role hasn't flipped yet

why swap misty into the experts is what I'm not getting, if they were already going to swap VPB into the defuser role? was it to give misty more towncred short term after VPB doesn't blow up? because that seems wildly short sighted given that they then used VPB to blow up andres -- why not put misty in again there

[Menalque]

having no idea what mala was informed of also makes me uncomfortable

[Menalque]

really wish I could remember who CSF is an alt of >.>

[Menalque]

err, actually I'd quite like to talk to/about CSF as well

do you think it's a fair assessment of your post? like does it affect your read of Bell?

I don't think it's a fair assessment. I don't even particularly know what it means. But it was also Friday, and after putting like 30 mins into trying to sort generally where my feelings on the game were at, I wanted to go drink some beer and chill, not get into a back and forth with someone right then.

As far as how I feel about Bell, I don't know if it was a bad faith bit of shading or not. I guess I'll see what he does with it or if he wants to explain further.

I thought it was scummy to post a readslist and not want to talk about it, since that's the primary reason for posting one. Your explanation for not wanting to get into a back and forth right away is plausible though I'm not sure i believe it. Since it doesn't really move the needle for me, let's just move on.

Your scumpool is alarming.

The one point you made against me that was valid was that I have not engaged a lot with you, which is probably true. But everything else I didn't think was fair.

There's Strange who is kind of just always LHF, because he struggles with expressing himself. Idk if you've played with him before and I won't hold this point against you if you haven't, but this scumread doesn't sway my opinion of you.

There's Titus, who I think was sick or something, and confidently asserted that she sometimes takes a backseat day 1. Why would she lie about something that can be so easily fact checked?

For Mala - idk how to read Koba and admittedly, the longer Mala goes without posting, the more concerned I get. The time I played with town Mala years ago, I vaguely recall her being obvtown. But she also has a busy/stressful job, so imo give her a couple more RL days to get into the game.

Overall, it gave me the impression that you went like: "hmm I have CSF and Strange in here and I should probably have a couple more scumreads, why not throw Titus and Mala in here?"

The other problem I have with your readslist is that I'm not sure everything tracks - fire is town because you vibe with his reads. But fire's scumpool {MT, Menalque, Andres} doesn't overlap with your scumpool here, so I'm not sure how that ended up being town for you

Not really. My point is that your assessment is not only wrong, but hypocritical. I'm trying to get you to realize that your subjective experience of my play and your ability to remember it doesn't actually say anything about my alignment.

I can't remember a stance you actually took before you started this dumb fight, but does that mean you haven't taken stances? Probably not! It probably means I need to go do some reading.

Yes, I post more than you. So what? I'm also voting, trying to figure out what I think is best on the mechs, pushing people to talk to me about things I think actually could be AI, and generally being pretty transparent about my reads on situations. This is all pretty clear in my ISO, which you insinuate you have actually read, so your accusation of active lurking rings pretty hollow. There are definitely people you could point to in this game who ARE active lurking (Titus, kittens), but I don't expect you to acknowledge that because it kind of pops your balloon.

I acknowledge this post, but I doubt going back and forth on this further will produce any useful info or be fun to read for everyone else.

Bell is probably just scum.

Highly unlikely at this point.

I don't know about "highly unlikely" but I am trending in that direction after the posts I just read on this page

Why were you scumreading him in the first place?

He had a reason to scumread VP, but didn't want to support his elim. Felt partner-y

Ik pooky said that's the opposite of what scum Bell would do in that situation, but that's what I felt at the time

yeah that's fair

I was also peeved that when VP was coming under pressure, and it looked like we may finally get a serious wagon going, he came in was like "no but LUKE"

Ok, I'm caught up!

Basic feelings on that catch up is the fire wagon feels lazy/possibly got some scum pushing it/hopping on. Bell I kind of think is confbiased town. Don't love that this is kind of just chugging along. I don't think fire's readslist is bad, and the complaint over formatting is What's the scum motivation for formatting it in a way you don't like?

Other things: I kinda liked a few points from CSF on andres, so maybe I'm wrong on her. I hated pretty much all of andres' catch up. Alot of it was kind of pointless. The heals are weird. And it seems like he is puffing up Frogster tinfoil until frog wraps him in the shiney.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: andres

Don't think strange really looks better, but an andres wagon might actually happen today and I'd prefer that over fire.

VOTE: Andres

I wanna know why VP lived in hood 2... that's what I'm curious about...

We basically thought it was more likely VP was put there by scum for us to kill a townie and get another NK

More likely than scum!vp putting himself in there to wifom us since that's a huge risk with me and pooky in the thread

so, CSF, couple of questions about your D1 into N1 into start of D2:

you started off pushing on VPB/engaging with him quite a lot. this is most clearly seen in 1380 above. I believe you were voting him at that point, but you then make 1381 and sort of forget about him. however, you make it clear that he's still presumably a strong scumread for you because you're willing to SR Bell for being potentially partner-y with him based on 1395 and 1399.

however: you then pretty much complete stop talking or thinking about VPB for the next ~450 posts. you don't read him, talk about him, engage with him in any way really. when he votes andres in 1847 you then... also vote andres on the next page without ever mentioning that your VPB read has changed or what changed it from being a primary scumread who you were voting until around 100 pages before when you switched to fire.

none of that is super concerning; maybe you just changed your mind on VPB and didn't mention it, which isn't great, but okay. but then you mention at the start of D2 that VPB is more likely town for risking entering a thread with you and pooky. and pooky -- sure, definitely talked a lot about wanting to kill him. but you'd just been supporting his push for the end of day, so why should he feel threatened by having you there?

[Menalque]

I'm still not sure if anyone has said why they think pooky is town btw, or if anyone has said that

would still truly love people to answer this

[Menalque]

I’m going to though and then I’m probably following Mena’s elimination list to the letter if they flip town.

This is okay with me, I'd obviously prefer not to be limmed and I don't think it's necessary, but I can live with it.

If I am going that way though, then I'd like to be as sure as possible on who's town for the remaining days, because for instance I'm currently not sure if that initial list is the same one I'd like to stick to. I want to talk to CSF, GL, and enchant more. I feel happier about you, I think.

I would be shocked if dwlee or Andy are maf. And I want to talk about pooky in case it's also not him. Town should win this even with my mislim, but I don't want to leave a pool to be followed if it might lead to turbolimming into elo.

[Menalque]

You could check if town made the same mistake. I don't think anyone else did

yes, there's nowhere else that town have made the same mista-

i thought there was this collective agreement that defusers would blow up people we weren't townreading.

also, yes, I do have a NA tonight but it seems redundant probably? the only way to maybe get use out of it would be to say I'm going to 50/50 toss a coin between targeting the scummiest player and the towniest one, making scum either risk limming themselves by killing me or going for a double whammy

[Menalque]

for the last post: inb4 tmi, I mean that if CSF town then obviously from her own perspective town just made the same mistake

[Menalque]

- you didn't quote the posts where I really started thinking Andres was scum. I basically saw something shinier and moved there.

yeah, I know, but I guess I just found it odd that you sort of completely let the thread drop only to then vote alongside him? I'll reread again though

[Menalque]

I mean, I still think you're significantly more likely town than not CSF, but I want to work out any weird shit from you before I bin you with dwlee and Andy and start trying to sort between the other three

Bell will get the same thing if I find anything that seems off when I go through his ISO but I feel better from talking to him today, even if I disagree with his reasoning for wanting my lim first

[Menalque]

I think I did mean bomb defuser but I'm not sure

I mostly meant "I want to be picked to do stuff with the bomb because it seems like a really cool bit of the setup to me"

honestly biggest regret this game is not even that I prob get limmed for bad optics around scum, but not looking towny enough to get picked to do bomb stuff on other nights. I'm gutted

[Menalque]

CSF, not asking you to out but just want to make sure I'm not going crazy -- you are an alt of someone I know, right?

[Menalque]

I also felt VPB wasn't going anywhere as a wagon

why not try to get it going yourself?

[Menalque]

I feel like the only person who would kill Cephrir here is Menalque. Does anyone have a refutation of that?

I'm growing more and more tempted to switch to Enchant

what were you thinking of saying to this btw?

but yeah Menalque much like you are constantly asking about Pooky, I would really love like a truly convincing case from somebody why Andante is town. The best point in her favor is all the fake JOAT claim stuff, she claimed accurate results and used it to help town lim scum rather than secure a miselim so I get the idea that it's ~ probably ~ ++town, but I don't think it's impossible to come from scum?

The main thing holding me back is I feel like her read on Dwlee pivoted from scum to town very suddenly, she claimed it was a result that caused this - which we now know it wasn't - and then all her post-N4 VPB interactions looked to me like distancing where her primary goal was to look unaligned with him. A lot of her early game reads were very wack to me and she has been constantly trying to throw suspicion on me throughout the game

Andy is on the list, but I want to go through Bell's posting first

I think that aside from the JOAT thing, stock should be put into several flipped town (greeting, catboi, andres) who I think have generally good reads all being very sure of Andy town. my reads go up and down, and Andy is someone I struggle to be super confident on from the little I have played with her (she gives me the same kinda chaos vibe that Noraa always would, which I sometimes want to just kill but that's mostly because I struggle with sorting it) and so I want to outsource this somewhat to those people who were very confident in it

[Menalque]

I mean, technically everyone is on the list, but Andy and dwlee have got the lowest priority

also, just in terms of numbers:

8 alive today. scum probably have another nk by now? so let's say that the nk goes through. that means 6 tomorrow, maybe 5 if like, GL is town but gets made defuser because that's probably too risky to allow.

that means only 2 more lims before endgame I think, after today? so the key from today is trying to get a pool of 3 that is as sure as possible to contain the final scum

[Menalque]

VOTE: Dwlee

dwlee and strange have to be the next 2 flips. no reason to ever not flip both

and I need Dwlee flipped before Mistyx cause there's a strong thing catboi pointed out that they're not partners, which I'd agree with

VOTE: Dwlee

dwlee and strange have to be the next 2 flips. no reason to ever not flip both

Flipping Morning Tweet would give a lot of context to the game at that point.

i'm tryinggggggggggggggg

we have to flip Dwlee

VOTE: Dwlee

my reads change too much for me to be town, and at this point no one even thinks I have a decent read.

Dwlee for sure has to go tomorrow after this flips town

VOTE: Dwlee

I've decided I'm not gonna encourage the likely town lim, and instead I'll be voting mafia, also yeah, asking me for a claim here? lmao right... not gonna happen

no. I TR nothing about Dwlee. Dwlee has only significantly changed their playstyle after pooky and I were like "dwlee has done 0 solving"

oh I hope strange flips town

Just got here.

Oh I will.

I'm fairly certain you flip town lol but these people...

These are all the Andante posts on Dwlee/Strange immediately prior to Strange flip

then the next day, she comes in voting VPB and saying she has a town result on Dwlee

now that we know she's a VT

Why did her read change??????

hm. okay, I guess I would like Andy to expand on this, yeah

CSF, not asking you to out but just want to make sure I'm not going crazy -- you are an alt of someone I know, right?

Yes but I haven't played on my main in years. This kitty account is my main now :3

I also felt VPB wasn't going anywhere as a wagon

why not try to get it going yourself?

I think I did try ;_;

okay, thank god I'm not going crazy. I think I did think you were someone who you're not for a sec, tho

and for the second thing... um, would you mind showing me the posts where you think you did this? because I don't really see it from your ISO

[Menalque]

Bell, could you break down what Titus' argument for andante!scum was? in as much detail as possible please

[Menalque]

Sure, we have time

[Menalque]

enchant, who do you think is the final scum?

[Menalque]

and why, ideally, but I'll settle for the answer to the first question

[Menalque]

Andante and Bell for same reason, they blew Titus who blatant town.

why not me or pooky?

[Menalque]

Spoiler: posts from pooky iso page 1 that i want to talk more about but don’t have the wim to rn

I do think Tweetie is more on the hedgy side but she's one of those players that becomes more readable the later into a game it gets because she has absolutely terrible endurance as scum so it's p obvious later if she's a baddie.

She's absolutely a monster if she replaces into a game that has flips to work with because she's relentless but I can see her getting confused in a large theme that moves along fairly quickly. She hasn't done anything that makes me think she's town but I tend to give her a longer leash than most because like if she's town then she will be pretty useful later and if she's bad she'll be like obviously bad.

oh you're here

nice

VOTE: VPB

give me one reason you're town here

oh you're here

nice

VOTE: VPB

give me one reason you're town here

I haven't called you a moron yet. So, ya know, I'm trying!

that's actually not town indicative for you tho lol

usually you've already annoyed me by now :<

GL still lines up with my impression of him as scum

can you elaborate on this? what is setting off your bat sensors?

"you can't townread cephrir for being the only one to think about this because i did too. but i didn't really since it was a half baked idea"

plz tell me what is wrong with my characterization or what the town motivation is

Lol, Greeting can certainly townread you for it. Just wasn't your idea. Credit where it's due.

Maybe you came to the conclusion independently, idk. Just saying you definitely weren't the first person to bring it up. I think greeting is more town than you, so I'd prefer they have all the information when making their decision on reads. That's my motivation.

This is a perspective slip because of what's unsaid here.

from VPB!town's POV - he should be townreading cephrir for having the same thought process as he does - unless he wants to claim that Cephrir is just plagiarizing him 800 posts later or w/e but that's clearly not his intent as he didn't even state things in the way Cephrir did.

Instead he seems peeved that Cephrir is getting town-read for a post that he already made - the goal isn't actually because he thinks Cephrir is scum - he just wants his own town cred for "saying something similar" which is kind of ????

Like this game isn't about seeing who can score the most town!points for statements about game state - this game is about sorting between bad guys and good guys. VP's entire conversation with Cephrir isn't about sorting Cephrir - it's about saying oh it's unfair Ceph is getting credit for something that I already said sort of kind of - which is not a town mindset.

I'm gonna check something cuz I pretty much never remember VPB!town making a readlist on day one.

do you have an example of a completed town game I can check this against dude?

you've been playing for 13 years and you can't link me a single game where you made a readlist on d1 as town?

actually the fact you haven't told me to fuck off yet is kind of hilariously +scum for you

I kind of want CSF/Andante/Catboi/Me for my bomb team

Frogster/Greeting/Cephrir/Titus for the other team?

I have no issues with letting VPB defuse every bomb if these scumfucks keep putting him up to defuse bombs


HEAL: vpb

Between her and Andres it seems obvious they are switching in widely suspected players on purpose but I don't understand what the goal is

I think if they pick a widely suspected town player for the defuser - we can just blow that person up and POE narrows for them and they don't really get anywhere.

If they pick themselves for defuser - they run a risk of blowing themselves up.

So the least bad move they have is to target the same townread player - make the bombs stack up on them hoping we break, while using the swap to target people that are suspected in order to set up future mislims

this setup is absolutely brutal for scum - instead of having nightkills they basically squeeze their own POE lol

VOTE: mala

speed~run~hype

we shouldn't lim VPB because scum are going to try to blow him up anyway(if they don't try to blow him up thats basically a scumclaim)

no point doing their dirty work for them make him eat a bullet for someone else.

like game this out

if our policy is to blow up VPB if he gets a bomb

then scum will always make VPB the defuser if VPB is town

so when that happens booom time

and voila we solve the VPB issue without losing a lim

there's literally no point to divert and get paranoid of VPB atp - we're just playing into the scum wifom.

I investigated VPB he's a dirty scumfuck

actually i was just thinking if we put 3 defusals on VPB and he gets a fourth defusal done

he's basically an IC

or if we policy blow him up at 4th defusal, we have 0 chance of losing

if VPB is town, we reset to 0 defusals for scum and we get three more defusals with no worries.

if VPB is scum, we just policy bomb everyone and dare the scumbags to try to win

that is meant in a humorous way and not an obscene or mean way

love you dwlee(even if you r scumbaggo)

I was super confident in my strange read, but the way strange said what they said, I kinda doubt that read I had. Dwlee/Pooky interactions feel odd but idk what I think about it, and uhh yeah! Mala ISO is just.. lol nope it's just prodging tbh

dwlee just trying to make me look bad when they inevitably flip scum

Dwlee just desperately flailing at the air here

probly 4 of these 5:

Dwlee99
Enchant
Titus
Mala
Strange

Pooky, why did you agree to save VP? after saying how he was for sure scum D1?

well everyone else thought he was town and I didn't want to get blamed if he blew up and was town cuz then i'm dead next

also he yelled at me and I'm susceptible to AtE >.>

Mostly I don't think VPB has the guts to put himself into a bomb squad when I'm swearing up and down that I want to murder him and he knows I almost never change my mind because I'm stubborn as hell and tend to death-tunnel - I think it's more likely that scum set him up to make me want to blow him up and then I get elimmed on the day after for blowing him up.

mala scum just lolcatting at us

i think game is pretty much wrapped

it literally makes 0 sense to execute VPB.

if we execute VPB!Town, we basically lost a lim for nothing.

if we are playing in the VPB!scum world, then scum are going for some weird af wifom game where they are trying to win via VPB defusals.

in which case they will put up VPB to defuse the bomb.

in which case we can just blow him up and we keep our lim and scum waste a night.

blowing up VPB town is a lot better than limming VPB town

in other words blowing up VPB is preferable to limming VPB regardless of VPB alignment

and if scum are trying to win via vpb defusing shit, they have to put up VPB as defuser again.

scum want us to twist ourselves into a pretzel overthinking this paranoia bullshit

and if scum are trying to win via vpb defusing shit, they have to put up VPB as defuser again.

Didn't understand logic behind this one.

if we are in the world where scum are trying to win via defusals

THEN

I'm assuming scum don't have any1 more townread than VPB because if they did

they would use that person to defuse bombs instead of stacking up on VPB.

imo we're just being led towards paranoia because if scum don't crack townblock with paranoia they get POE'd out

Broke: Koba playing a million games with me: Dwlee is impossible to read deep wolf don Corleone

Woke: Andante playing with me a few games and I'm easy to read

Dwlee flexing their deepwolf muscles on us

ngl 35% of why I think vpbaltar is town is because I think if dwlee was scum with vpb they would've tried to bus VPB for the cred so they could get the last 2 defusals needed yes I have cool thoughts because I am a cool bear.

i don't think i've ever read a dwlee scum game where they posted a single complicated thought in my life

ok dwlee show me a single post from this game that could be construed as "complicated thought"

Dwlee's scum game is like 3 inches deep

I have 175 posts in this game and they are all:
1. Andante talk to me
2. Eat hot chip
3. Be non-binary
4. Twerk
5. Lie

you forgot "push convenient wagons" buddy

and now I'm interacting and nothing is happening

cuz dlee is terrified of you

They're pretty much always where the scum aren't this game.

What does that mean?

They're voting exclusively town with brain dead vote parks and about as much flexibility as an iceberg.

and like what even is this complaint

d1 i voted vpb

i changed my mind on him in the bomb PT (so much for no flexibility)

d2 i voted for frogster because dude needed to die

d3 i voted for mala because she basically was lolcatting and not even playing the game.

she turned up and started posting after hammer already landed

what exactly are you even blaming me for

after dwlee murders me in cold blood pls do not let them get away with it tyvm

cuz dlee is a scumbag

Definitely Town:

Bell
VPB
Andy
Greeting
Cephrir (if I am wrong about anyone in this tier its Ceph but I don't think I'm wrong)

Probably Town:

Mena
CSF
Andres

Null:

GuiltyLion
MistyX
Titus
StrangeMatter

Scum:

Dwlee
Enchant

DO NOT LET DWLEE GET AWAY WITH BLOWING ME UP

DWLEE IS TRYING TO SPIN SOME WEIRD BULLSHIT SCENARIO THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN A MILLION YEARS TO EXCUSE BLOWING ME UP DO NOT BELIEVE THEM KILL THEM TOMMORROW IMMEDIATELY

They're going to have all sorts of bullshit excuses why it's fine:

"We can never trust pooky"

"He was just a VT"

"I would be sneaky about it if I was scum"

"There's no way I would openly plot to blow up Pooky and then actually do it"


This is classic refuge in audacity and every word is designed to make you think they won't do it, in fact the more brazen it is the more likely it is they get away with this shit.

dwlee can you walk me through why you told scum to make me defuser so you could blow me up?

also did you think the group you were in was all town prior to today?

think scum walked into that bomb session with the plan of blowing up Andres - when bomb expert is mafia its basically a strongman kill so this was planned out ahead of time.

I do think Dwlee made a good point that it doesn't make sense for them to bus Mala for cred and then openwolf a bomb explosion because now they can never endgame - unless SM is also scum and they're pulling a double bus. But even then it feels like a very shit exchange for them.

I don't think VPB makes sense as scum because blowing up Andres doesn't fit with that win condition

I guess it makes sense if VPB is bussing SM for towncred to get another defusal tonight

I don't think it makes sense to get cold feet on SM now because we had this same issue yesterday.

Never let VPB defuse another bomb regardless of SM flip imo.

I don't think VPB makes sense as scum because blowing up Andres doesn't fit with that win condition

why not? he's with 2 top SRs as defusers, thinks theyboth get limmed over him. yeet 2 town, then he goes. all while having 2 partners still alive. perfect plan. unless you're his buddyand know this already

no VPB gets blown up tonight or we lim him tomm

I don't get how that clears misty

like if we're at town!VPB scum!misty, why wouldnt misty just let VPB defuse and become focal point of game and misyeeted?

its better for scum to have townies be misyeeted than blown up by a bomb

[Menalque]

Spoiler: posts from pooky iso page 2 that I want to comment on when I have more wim

esp if VPB!Town already defused a bomb on night 1, then Misty!scum has a lot of incentive to let VPB!town defuse again and give them a NK and it creates town paranoia on VPB and a misyeet possible in the future

Pooky, I think you're maf with VP. which is why I'm alive

heartbreaking

HEAL: Mena

HEAL: Titus

maybe you can cheer her up in the PT

HURT: Mena

ngl this game would be better if we picked the defuser and the scum had to pick the experts

Mena do you think Dwlee is scum with VPBaltar?

Cuz I'm not sure what the point of this fight with you is if Baltar is flipping town here.

like the options are:

Dwlee town VPB scum, Dwlee thinks Mena is VPB's buddy
Dwlee scum VPB scum, Dwlee wants to chain Mena after VPB
Dwlee scum VPB town, Dwlee is pre-chaining to convince us that Dwlee is inno to win a 1v1?

I can see town Mena thinking you're scum for thinking he's scum but it's not compelling to me cuz you still need to flip Baltar scum first

notice how VP hasn’t gone back to being defuser… scum team knows he explodes if he goes back, so why wouldn’t town!vp go back to defusing???

well if VP is town he wouldn't go back to defuse either because Dwlee gets autoyeeted

I think we need to flip VP just to see where we are on the defusal meter

if dude flips scum we don't defuse any bombs no matter who shows up in the PT

i dont care if catboi comes back from the dead

I agree with not defusing anymore unless GL flips town (or I'm the defuser o3o)

I would definitely not trust you to defuse a bomb if VP flips scum :3

ok i've seen enough

VOTE: VP Baltar

yea im sure scum you would be blazing away with the machine guns and making it super obvious you are scum

you have convinced me

so you're saying if you're scum

and you have successful defusals

you would shoot up this town

to make it obvious that scum defused the bomb overnight?

just from a risk mitigation standpoint shouldn't we just flip VPB

if he's town then mafia are nowhere close to winning and we kill dwlee tomm

and if he's mafia then yah dead scum whooohoooo

I tend to play for worst case scenario

if VPB is town, we can defuse 2 more times safely so we can block the mafia bomb kill twice.

if VPB is scum, we kinda can't afford to defuse anything

does Andy!scum fake a mech clear on her scum partner Dwlee when Dwlee is already winning the 1v1

I mean you can't really think this

whats your question

if you think vp is scum why would you risk scum getting to 3/4 defuses by letting another bomb go through

because I'm not 100% sure on VP being mafia and scum

do not win at 3 even if VP is scum

also GL's first post in the hood PT felt really townie and honest to me. He didn't really feel like he was pushing for being spared - also I don't think there's any reason for Scum!GL to really expect the three of us to townread him.

look if VPB is mafia here - we simply do not defuse any more bombs period

there is no point to take that risk.

if you want to litigate whether GL is a partner we can have that discussion here in the open thread rather than execute in a closed hood.

if VPB flips scum here...

like GL is never defusing another bomb.[no1 in their right mind would let him defuse another bomb]

I am never defusing a bomb.

If the scum really r doing 4 defusal win condition it would have to be someone extremely townread as the third partner

Mena won't have enough rope for all of us

I got your back Dlee

even if VPB flips town

Bear Bros Forever

i dont understand how vpb is still alive r we being trolled

did he really die 10 pages ago but datisi wont vc cuz i wont give him a pagetop

I don't get it

you just said it's either GL/Pooky or GL/Ceph for the scum team but you're also saying that if GL flips scum then Pooky and Ceph r both town?

ok if GL/Pooky/Ceph are all town who are your scumreads then

VOTE: Mena


4 protectives with a backup protective in a game where scum dont even have 1 NK a night is yea no way.

I care about what mech makes sense to be in a game because I know mod meta is absolute and needs to make sense to pass review.

I do not give a shit about whether a PLAY makes sense for a SCUM to do.

Scum do plays that DO NOT MAKE SENSE all the time.

That is part of being scum.

If scum only did plays that makes sense they would get rekt every game.

Ceph your defense of mena is gonna look like shit tomm prepare to die dude

if you flip town I will make sure misty dies for you buddy

i hope mena paid you a retainer

i hope mena paid you a retainer

feel like two posts saying maybe we should think about all the possibilities before rushing in is maybe not worthy of these posts but ok

you're only making this worse for yourself

csf doesn't counterclaim as scum here that's absurd

mb you should be telling mena how to defend himself in the scum PT instead of here

i hope mena paid you a retainer

feel like two posts saying maybe we should think about all the possibilities before rushing in is maybe not worthy of these posts but ok

you're only making this worse for yourself

you're not going to get me killed this game scumbear

nice omgus didnt see it coming at all

its so covenient you scumread mena but when there's an actual chance of the dude dying suddenly you're bending over backwards to make a defense for him

i dont even know what your defense of mena is atp actually

there's literally no incentive for scum to be using their nightkills before VPB flips because if their nightkills go thru it literally outs VPB as a scumbag

and everything VPB said is probably just random ass anti-spew - dude knew he was on a limited timeline

i can't possibly imagine scum!CSF making 5344

that is a work of art

csf mvp

game over

lets wrap this up

im really drunk and i dont understand why misty and mena havent surrendered yet

kinda want to say fuck it and just vote mena but also feeling too cocky might not be the best play here if he actually flips town cuz I can see this shit going very sideways

like him casing me feels like a lot of effort for scum!him to be making if he's like doomed here

i lowkey actually do think maybe he just waves a white flag here and concedes if he's actually lone!scum which is kind of gross but he has mentioned playing against wincon on purpose multiple times in the past

I mean do you expect scum!mena to just concede cause that's lame

kind of yes rofl

like the thing with him pushing me is.

I can totally see him actually being paranoid of me if he's like town cuz dude is fucking terrified of scum!me since I've like eaten him multiple times.

and like I don't think it actually makes sense for him to do this shit!push on me as like cornered scum cuz the odds scum!him actually flips me here is pretty fucking low and like after I flip town where the fuck is he going to go? try to get 2 more misflips?

seems like a tall fucking task ngl

isn't that just how Enchant plays every game

that's actually a good point on scum morale lol

VOTE: Enchant

[Menalque]

Tbf even without my commentary, y’all may want to look at those two spoilers bc I think they contain some ~interesting~ reading

[Menalque]

I also really really don’t want to kill Enchant today

I’d rather do pooky but if it’s between me and enchant I think I’d prefer to go today, then do pooky tomorrow, then if we’re actually both town it probably is enchant

Need to do due diligence but I think resolving me/pooky first is a much healthier order

[Menalque]

just to touch on that point: I don't think that's comparable, actually. scum need mislims, of which I am clearly very viable. dwlee is not a viable mislim. it doesn't make a lot of sense for scum!you to get me killed via defuser if you need my lim to be a daytime one. that's quite different to me not killing dwlee if scum to avoid dying during the day.

especially when, as others have noted, you're pretty high on the suspect list after I die

[Menalque]

I'm also not gonna be embarrassed after the game either way because I'm trying my best even if that's not very good, and I can't really do anything other than try my best to make reads and accept that they will be wrong sometimes

[Menalque]

It annoys me that you think it's ok to be wrong on every single thing and still wander in here like we should listen to you for the final lim order.

It feels like a very townie thing to think since only a townie could possibly be that fucking arrogant.

But I'd like to actually win the game.

I would like to be listened to, but also even without me saying "you must do this" we've got Bell, for instance, saying that he's going to take my reads seriously after I flip town

so even without me insisting on that, I still have a certain burden to try and get my reads as good as I can if people will be following them or using them as guidance upon my townflip

attacking me isn't doing anything to make me see you as more town and I don't think your towncase is very good

(1) I haven't, actually, been wrong on everything. I've been wrong on plenty and been late/mistimed on other things, but that's different to being wrong about everything. also it's fallacious to think that because I've been wrong on other things I'm necessarily wrong on this, or that if someone has been right on other things that they will continue to be so

(2) you were previously pushing to lim me, I'm still very likely to be the lim for today which means you don't need to do it so directly, and if you're scum you also have to bear in mind how it's going to look after I flip town. I think that you going in super hard on me when several town are having doubts probably makes you look much worse tomorrow and that's why you're backing off

(3) this is probably the strongest reason for why you might be town, but I think you're strategic>annoyance. so even if, yes, you might like to kill me because I'm annoying you (which is also a weird take for any day prior to maybe yesterday, given how little we'd interacted) I don't think you would if you need me as a mislim to have a chance of winning the game, which I think you do

[Menalque]

I know you're not going to be embarrassed because you're fine with being wrong

I'm not fine with being wrong, I don't like it, but I'm also not going to torture myself over it if I think I did the best I could and it wasn't good enough -- I'm just going to try and do better next time

[Menalque]

if you think I'm town, why do you think Enchant is scum? and if Enchant isn't scum, then who would it be?

[Menalque]

I also really really don’t want to kill Enchant today

I’d rather do pooky but if it’s between me and enchant I think I’d prefer to go today, then do pooky tomorrow, then if we’re actually both town it probably is enchant

Need to do due diligence but I think resolving me/pooky first is a much healthier order

why are you so confident enchant is town?

it's not that... I'm confident that pooky is scum, but I think pooky has a much better scumgame than enchant.

so I'm much more worried that if Enchant is limmed today, then I probably go tomorrow, and pooky maybe manages to talk his way out of it in 3p

this is the other reason why I wanna be confident on everyone who isn't pooky or enchant being town, so that if y'all just lim me and pooky and the game hasn't ended then hopefully it means it is just enchant

[Menalque]

I've got commentary on the pooky quotes I put in the spoilers earlier in a word document

would y'all like me to try to brush it up into a tidier format/to write out the main arguments as narrative, or are you happy for me to just c&p the commentary under the posts ?

[Menalque]

the only allowed media is embedded content, or links to uneditable content. for example, you are not allowed to link vocaroos and pastebins in the thread.

would I be allowed to include a dropbox link to a word document? bc I put all pooky's quotes in text boxes to make commenting on them easier but now I can't copy paste them anymore

[Menalque]

actually fuck it, I wanna log off for a while, I'm gonna save a new version and just unformat the text boxes if that's possible

if y'all decide you want a condensed version as well that has more flow to it then I can do that too, but I need a break, this took like nearly 3 hours

[Menalque]

I mean I'm not asking to live to endgame but this really sounds like more of an ego thing for you than a read based on what I'm posting

which is okay! I've definitely had games before where I've been like "damn it, I'm not losing to X no matter what they do!!" so, fair

I'm not gonna get mad about it, I'm just gonna keep trying to convince you that I'm town and failing that to please try and make sure you win this after limming me

[Menalque]

it's okay dude, but please try to remember for next time we're in this situation

I can go first, but please make sure to do pooky tomorrow

also I'm juuuust about locktown on Bell as well as you atp

[Menalque]

also why do Microsoft Word macros not fucking work lol

[Menalque]

Spoiler: commentary on the pooky posts I quoted earlier

I do think Tweetie is more on the hedgy side but she's one of those players that becomes more readable the later into a game it gets because she has absolutely terrible endurance as scum so it's p obvious later if she's a baddie.

She's absolutely a monster if she replaces into a game that has flips to work with because she's relentless but I can see her getting confused in a large theme that moves along fairly quickly. She hasn't done anything that makes me think she's town but I tend to give her a longer leash than most because like if she's town then she will be pretty useful later and if she's bad she'll be like obviously bad.

Here because it’s an early defence of MT!scum that probably wasn’t strictly necessary. Could just be him being wrong, but wanted to note.

oh you're here

nice

VOTE: VPB

give me one reason you're town here

Start of the VPB push

oh you're here

nice

VOTE: VPB

give me one reason you're town here

I haven't called you a moron yet. So, ya know, I'm trying!

that's actually not town indicative for you tho lol

usually you've already annoyed me by now :<

Not really clear why pooky scumreads VPB, but that’s not super important, the more important thing is charting his progression here

GL still lines up with my impression of him as scum

can you elaborate on this? what is setting off your bat sensors?

Giving MT some softball questions to help her get into the game?

"you can't townread cephrir for being the only one to think about this because i did too. but i didn't really since it was a half baked idea"

plz tell me what is wrong with my characterization or what the town motivation is

Lol, Greeting can certainly townread you for it. Just wasn't your idea. Credit where it's due.

Maybe you came to the conclusion independently, idk. Just saying you definitely weren't the first person to bring it up. I think greeting is more town than you, so I'd prefer they have all the information when making their decision on reads. That's my motivation.

This is a perspective slip because of what's unsaid here.

from VPB!town's POV - he should be townreading cephrir for having the same thought process as he does - unless he wants to claim that Cephrir is just plagiarizing him 800 posts later or w/e but that's clearly not his intent as he didn't even state things in the way Cephrir did.

Instead he seems peeved that Cephrir is getting town-read for a post that he already made - the goal isn't actually because he thinks Cephrir is scum - he just wants his own town cred for "saying something similar" which is kind of ????

Like this game isn't about seeing who can score the most town!points for statements about game state - this game is about sorting between bad guys and good guys. VP's entire conversation with Cephrir isn't about sorting Cephrir - it's about saying oh it's unfair Ceph is getting credit for something that I already said sort of kind of - which is not a town mindset.

Okay, this is an important one. These are all really fair points on VPB being scum, especially now that VPB has uh, actually flipped scum. This is the sort of thing you would expect to be brought up again, right? Well

I'm gonna check something cuz I pretty much never remember VPB!town making a readlist on day one.

do you have an example of a completed town game I can check this against dude?

Instead, focus is more on something I think is a pretty weak reason to suspect someone. Idk, maybe this is why pooky is better at catching scum than me normally, but someone doing/not doing a readslist D1 seems like the kinda thing that could be for ~whatever~ reason and is a lot less convincing than hammering the perspective slip thing

you've been playing for 13 years and you can't link me a single game where you made a readlist on d1 as town?

More of the same

actually the fact you haven't told me to fuck off yet is kind of hilariously +scum for you

Another very personal, fairly weak, and unlikely to be convincing to anyone else reason for why VPB is scum

I kind of want CSF/Andante/Catboi/Me for my bomb team

Frogster/Greeting/Cephrir/Titus for the other team?

These two are actually a point against pooky!scum, I think – I would have expected him to want one scum in both expert teams? Whereas this would have been super, super town-stacked if it had gone through

I have no issues with letting VPB defuse every bomb if these scumfucks keep putting him up to defuse bombs


HEAL: vpb

Okay, this is the first weird bit where he’s completely forgotten about the perspective slip/VPB being scum and pooky is advocating for VPB to keep being a defuser

Between her and Andres it seems obvious they are switching in widely suspected players on purpose but I don't understand what the goal is

I think if they pick a widely suspected town player for the defuser - we can just blow that person up and POE narrows for them and they don't really get anywhere.

If they pick themselves for defuser - they run a risk of blowing themselves up.

So the least bad move they have is to target the same townread player - make the bombs stack up on them hoping we break, while using the swap to target people that are suspected in order to set up future mislims

This, in hindsight, looks bad to me – it’s a roundabout way of arguing that VPB should keep defusing. The subtext is that we shouldn’t break i.e. detonate someone/lim them so long as the defuser is townread – and who’s the defuser who’s been subbed in twice? That’s right, our flipped scum, VPB. And who is pooky now pushing as being towny despite never really having addressed why his read changed despite “others in the PT thought that we shouldn’t kill him and I was worried I’d die next if I unilaterally took him out”. Because that’s a reason to not blow him up sure – but it’s not a reason to come round to him being town and to forget the reasons he was scum to you in the first place

this setup is absolutely brutal for scum - instead of having nightkills they basically squeeze their own POE lol

This and another post seem to be griping about the setup being unfair for scum, which I think is the sort of thing that’s slightly more likely to come from scum in the abstract, and combined with the other reasons for pooky being scum is quite telling overall

VOTE: mala

speed~run~hype

Pooky immediately hops on the mala wagon, despite not having any real interest in her prior to this. In fairness, I can see town!pooky doing this too, but it would have been important for scum pooky who was probably already thinking about endgame to make sure he got on the bus for the cred

we shouldn't lim VPB because scum are going to try to blow him up anyway(if they don't try to blow him up thats basically a scumclaim)

no point doing their dirty work for them make him eat a bullet for someone else.

like game this out

if our policy is to blow up VPB if he gets a bomb

then scum will always make VPB the defuser if VPB is town

so when that happens booom time

and voila we solve the VPB issue without losing a lim

there's literally no point to divert and get paranoid of VPB atp - we're just playing into the scum wifom.

The above two go together, I think. So the reason to not have VPB limmed is because he needs to made defuser, right? Because if he’s town, scum will make him defuser and we can kill him that way. And if scum won’t make him defuser, it’s a scumclaim and we can lim him. Great!

So why is pooky voting for him to be an expert at this point? You know, one of the things that prevents him being made defuser, which is apparently how pooky wants to sovle the slot despite still never having actually explained what changed for him on why VPB was scum to town.

I investigated VPB he's a dirty scumfuck

This one is weird

actually i was just thinking if we put 3 defusals on VPB and he gets a fourth defusal done

he's basically an IC

We would have lost the game if we’d done this

or if we policy blow him up at 4th defusal, we have 0 chance of losing

if VPB is town, we reset to 0 defusals for scum and we get three more defusals with no worries.

if VPB is scum, we just policy bomb everyone and dare the scumbags to try to win

Still advocating for VPB to keep defusing despite it not being clear what makes VPB town

to pookyp

other than having been picked as defuser twice

that is meant in a humorous way and not an obscene or mean way

love you dwlee(even if you r scumbaggo)

Okay, this is the other important thing from pooky’s ISO imo, his dwlee read

I was super confident in my strange read, but the way strange said what they said, I kinda doubt that read I had. Dwlee/Pooky interactions feel odd but idk what I think about it, and uhh yeah! Mala ISO is just.. lol nope it's just prodging tbh

dwlee just trying to make me look bad when they inevitably flip scum

So there’s a lot of him talking about how dwlee is scum

Dwlee just desperately flailing at the air here

A loooooot

probly 4 of these 5:

Dwlee99
Enchant
Titus
Mala
Strange

Wanted to note this one because there is a max of 2 scum in here and I think quite likely only 1. Think that’s worth noting because pooky is happy to call out his accuracy as being super high normally. And it’s also worth noting that pooky really hard transitions on titus later, and his enchant read is never really substantiated either

Pooky, why did you agree to save VP? after saying how he was for sure scum D1?

well everyone else thought he was town and I didn't want to get blamed if he blew up and was town cuz then i'm dead next

also he yelled at me and I'm susceptible to AtE >.>

Mostly I don't think VPB has the guts to put himself into a bomb squad when I'm swearing up and down that I want to murder him and he knows I almost never change my mind because I'm stubborn as hell and tend to death-tunnel - I think it's more likely that scum set him up to make me want to blow him up and then I get elimmed on the day after for blowing him up.

Okay, this is as much of an explanation as we get for pooky shifting on VPB. And it’s, I guess, sort of plausible? But that’s not saying a huge amount for me, because

of course

it’s sort of plausible, because pooky is a good player and knows how to work a narrative. But why doesn’t this get brought up any earlier – why has all the other stuff about not killing VPB been to do with him being picked to be defuser by scum instead of actually arguing for why VPB is town based on his actions?

mala scum just lolcatting at us

i think game is pretty much wrapped

Mala scum who pooky is very confident on now despite not being a concern for nearly all the game. This is p weaksauce tho, it just caught my eye as I was going through

it literally makes 0 sense to execute VPB.

if we execute VPB!Town, we basically lost a lim for nothing.

if we are playing in the VPB!scum world, then scum are going for some weird af wifom game where they are trying to win via VPB defusals.

in which case they will put up VPB to defuse the bomb.

in which case we can just blow him up and we keep our lim and scum waste a night.

More defending VPB. But why does pooky want VPB blown up if he thinks he’s town? And why, if he thinks blowing him up is the right move, was he talking earlier about how maybe we should let VPB get 3 or possibly 4 defusals? It makes no fucking sense

blowing up VPB town is a lot better than limming VPB town

More advocacy of why VPB is not a good lim. This will also be important later

in other words blowing up VPB is preferable to limming VPB regardless of VPB alignment

and if scum are trying to win via vpb defusing shit, they have to put up VPB as defuser again.

scum want us to twist ourselves into a pretzel overthinking this paranoia bullshit

Wow, it sure seems convenient to me that we should just let VPB continue to live until he gets made defuser again!

and if scum are trying to win via vpb defusing shit, they have to put up VPB as defuser again.

Didn't understand logic behind this one.

if we are in the world where scum are trying to win via defusals

THEN

I'm assuming scum don't have any1 more townread than VPB because if they did

they would use that person to defuse bombs instead of stacking up on VPB.

imo we're just being led towards paranoia because if scum don't crack townblock with paranoia they get POE'd out

Well, no, not necessarily. Let’s think about this – it’s always kind of a risk to try and win on defuses because you might always have a catboi/frog situation. So putting your towniest member in to try and defuse might pay off, but frankly nobody was towny enough to do all 4 probably. Plus

by virtue

of being chosen, that person is probably gonna look more and more suspicious. So I think it would make a lot of sense to, say, have someone who knows they may well go down do as many defusals as they can get away with, while saving your towniest player to try and win conventionally

Broke: Koba playing a million games with me: Dwlee is impossible to read deep wolf don Corleone

Woke: Andante playing with me a few games and I'm easy to read

Dwlee flexing their deepwolf muscles on us

ngl 35% of why I think vpbaltar is town is because I think if dwlee was scum with vpb they would've tried to bus VPB for the cred so they could get the last 2 defusals needed yes I have cool thoughts because I am a cool bear.

So pooky is still thinking VPB is town at this point apparently, and he’s still very much thinking that dwlee is scum

i don't think i've ever read a dwlee scum game where they posted a single complicated thought in my life

here

ok dwlee show me a single post from this game that could be construed as "complicated thought"

and here

Dwlee's scum game is like 3 inches deep

and here too

I have 175 posts in this game and they are all:
1. Andante talk to me
2. Eat hot chip
3. Be non-binary
4. Twerk
5. Lie

you forgot "push convenient wagons" buddy

and some more pushing dwlee here as well

and now I'm interacting and nothing is happening

cuz dlee is terrified of you

uh yeah, not sure why this one is here now I’m reading through

They're pretty much always where the scum aren't this game.

What does that mean?

They're voting exclusively town with brain dead vote parks and about as much flexibility as an iceberg.

and like what even is this complaint

d1 i voted vpb

i changed my mind on him in the bomb PT (so much for no flexibility)

d2 i voted for frogster because dude needed to die

d3 i voted for mala because she basically was lolcatting and not even playing the game.

she turned up and started posting after hammer already landed

what exactly are you even blaming me for

but like… the changing of the mind isn’t really what was said. It’s duelling explanations being provided – sometimes he changed his mind because he really thought that VPB wouldn’t put himself in that position, sometimes it’s because he was worried that if he was wrong then he’d be blown up

@CSF, go look at pooky’s iso in the n1 bomb pt. you can confirm for everyone else that only at one point does he allude to actually reconsidering VPB as town, and even then it’s not for the reason he’s talked about elsewhere (that VPB would have to have huge balls to make himself defuser when pooky was in the expert group) although I’ll grant that it’s similar. It’s because he says that he thinks baltar trying to case him in the PT while he has power of life and death over him is towny

after dwlee murders me in cold blood pls do not let them get away with it tyvm

Back on that dwlee!scum hype

cuz dlee is a scumbag

And again

Definitely Town:

Bell
VPB
Andy
Greeting
Cephrir (if I am wrong about anyone in this tier its Ceph but I don't think I'm wrong)

Probably Town:

Mena
CSF
Andres

Null:

GuiltyLion
MistyX
Titus
StrangeMatter

Scum:

Dwlee
Enchant

Dwlee and enchant are at the bottom of the scumpile. Sooooo why is he not really advocating for either of their deaths? Also, titus has moved up from scum to null, along with misty and strangematter, from back in 2974. Why? Let’s look at their posts inbetween

[INSERT POSTS]

Okay, so what caused the shift here?

DO NOT LET DWLEE GET AWAY WITH BLOWING ME UP

More yelling about dwlee scum. This seems like a very strong read!

DWLEE IS TRYING TO SPIN SOME WEIRD BULLSHIT SCENARIO THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN A MILLION YEARS TO EXCUSE BLOWING ME UP DO NOT BELIEVE THEM KILL THEM TOMMORROW IMMEDIATELY

And again

They're going to have all sorts of bullshit excuses why it's fine:

"We can never trust pooky"

"He was just a VT"

"I would be sneaky about it if I was scum"

"There's no way I would openly plot to blow up Pooky and then actually do it"


This is classic refuge in audacity and every word is designed to make you think they won't do it, in fact the more brazen it is the more likely it is they get away with this shit.

Pooky super super convinced on dwlee being scum! VPB is a top townread according to his own recent post!

dwlee can you walk me through why you told scum to make me defuser so you could blow me up?

also did you think the group you were in was all town prior to today?

Uh, not sure of the context here given that pooky has never been defuser

think scum walked into that bomb session with the plan of blowing up Andres - when bomb expert is mafia its basically a strongman kill so this was planned out ahead of time.

I do think Dwlee made a good point that it doesn't make sense for them to bus Mala for cred and then openwolf a bomb explosion because now they can never endgame - unless SM is also scum and they're pulling a double bus. But even then it feels like a very shit exchange for them.

I don't think VPB makes sense as scum because blowing up Andres doesn't fit with that win condition

Okay, so VPB doesn’t make sense as scum either

I guess it makes sense if VPB is bussing SM for towncred to get another defusal tonight

This is where the VPB townread starts to get walked back

I don't think it makes sense to get cold feet on SM now because we had this same issue yesterday.

Never let VPB defuse another bomb regardless of SM flip imo.

But pooky, why does SM sacrifice herself for andres?

I don't think VPB makes sense as scum because blowing up Andres doesn't fit with that win condition

why not? he's with 2 top SRs as defusers, thinks theyboth get limmed over him. yeet 2 town, then he goes. all while having 2 partners still alive. perfect plan. unless you're his buddyand know this already

no VPB gets blown up tonight or we lim him tomm

So now we’re fully back to killing VPB. But why the fuck, if he’s scum, would scum make him defuser knowing that he’s now in the scumpool? It’s not gonna happen, and I don’t think pooky can reasonably think that. So this is essentially just saying “let’s let him live another day”

I don't get how that clears misty

Misty is now back in the suspect pool despite having been in null earlier

like if we're at town!VPB scum!misty, why wouldnt misty just let VPB defuse and become focal point of game and misyeeted?

its better for scum to have townies be misyeeted than blown up by a bomb

this seems pertinent to the discussion today – pooky fully understands why scum need to have townies reserved for mislims. But then he conflates my point about “why wouldn’t I kill dwlee who’s tunnelling me and very town?” with “why wouldn’t I put you and dwlee together and let him blow you up?” when the answer is clearly that my townflip clarifies the game and makes it harder for pooky to win

esp if VPB!Town already defused a bomb on night 1, then Misty!scum has a lot of incentive to let VPB!town defuse again and give them a NK and it creates town paranoia on VPB and a misyeet possible in the future

I think this is angling to support limming misty before dwlee/VPB – something that baltar was also trying to do, and I think it’s clear why. If misty had flipped first, it would have allowed them to argue that dwlee and VPB were

both

town, and that andres died because of the rigged bomb ability

Pooky, I think you're maf with VP. which is why I'm alive

heartbreaking

I actually included this one more because I wanted to know -- Andy, did you follow up on this?

HEAL: Mena

Worth noting this one because apparently I’m still town to pooky here

HEAL: Titus

maybe you can cheer her up in the PT

HURT: Mena

Okay, not super strong town, but you take my point

ngl this game would be better if we picked the defuser and the scum had to pick the experts

This fits into the griping about the setup being unfair/disadvantageous to scum thing I mentioned before

Mena do you think Dwlee is scum with VPBaltar?

Cuz I'm not sure what the point of this fight with you is if Baltar is flipping town here.

like the options are:

Dwlee town VPB scum, Dwlee thinks Mena is VPB's buddy
Dwlee scum VPB scum, Dwlee wants to chain Mena after VPB
Dwlee scum VPB town, Dwlee is pre-chaining to convince us that Dwlee is inno to win a 1v1?

These two posts were both good and I think read like pooky engaging with someone who he believes is town and wants to convince

I can see town Mena thinking you're scum for thinking he's scum but it's not compelling to me cuz you still need to flip Baltar scum first

A notion further supported by him talking about how he can see me as town here

notice how VP hasn’t gone back to being defuser… scum team knows he explodes if he goes back, so why wouldn’t town!vp go back to defusing???

well if VP is town he wouldn't go back to defuse either because Dwlee gets autoyeeted

But in 3912 pooky was arguing that VPB shouldn’t be limmed the previous day because he could get blown up! I don’t think there’s a significant difference between the two days, is there? Admittedly the pool was down to 50/50 by that point, but does anyone really want to argue that if baltar had been picked the night before he also wouldn’t have been blown up (maybe, maybe if it had been me/enchant/pooky but almost any other combo and it was very likely)

I think we need to flip VP just to see where we are on the defusal meter

if dude flips scum we don't defuse any bombs no matter who shows up in the PT

i dont care if catboi comes back from the dead

This is completely at odds with what pooky has argued previously about letting VPB live in order to blow him up instead

I agree with not defusing anymore unless GL flips town (or I'm the defuser o3o)

I would definitely not trust you to defuse a bomb if VP flips scum :3

Sooooo pooky is supposedly still on that dwlee scum train, or at least he’s fronting that he’s suspicious of him here

ok i've seen enough

VOTE: VP Baltar

Now follows up on the previous stuff by voting him

yea im sure scum you would be blazing away with the machine guns and making it super obvious you are scum

you have convinced me

so you're saying if you're scum

and you have successful defusals

you would shoot up this town

to make it obvious that scum defused the bomb overnight?

Pooky piling back onto VPB as scum now

just from a risk mitigation standpoint shouldn't we just flip VPB

if he's town then mafia are nowhere close to winning and we kill dwlee tomm

and if he's mafia then yah dead scum whooohoooo

More justification for it

I tend to play for worst case scenario

if VPB is town, we can defuse 2 more times safely so we can block the mafia bomb kill twice.

if VPB is scum, we kinda can't afford to defuse anything

This also seems off – like if we needed to know by limming baltar, shouldn’t we have limmed baltar on D4 instead of strange from pooky’s pov? Otherwise letting a defuse go through was doable but would perpetually put us into a state of “we should probably lim every defuser unless GL flips” which is, uh, exactly where we’ve ended up

does Andy!scum fake a mech clear on her scum partner Dwlee when Dwlee is already winning the 1v1

I mean you can't really think this

Okay yes, I was being dumb here and this is a fair point

whats your question

if you think vp is scum why would you risk scum getting to 3/4 defuses by letting another bomb go through

because I'm not 100% sure on VP being mafia and scum

do not win at 3 even if VP is scum

also GL's first post in the hood PT felt really townie and honest to me. He didn't really feel like he was pushing for being spared - also I don't think there's any reason for Scum!GL to really expect the three of us to townread him.

look if VPB is mafia here - we simply do not defuse any more bombs period

there is no point to take that risk.

if you want to litigate whether GL is a partner we can have that discussion here in the open thread rather than execute in a closed hood.

if VPB flips scum here...

like GL is never defusing another bomb.[no1 in their right mind would let him defuse another bomb]

I am never defusing a bomb.

If the scum really r doing 4 defusal win condition it would have to be someone extremely townread as the third partner

This seems to me like it’s meant to cast potential suspicion on future townread players like dwlee or andy

Reading back through the game, I’m now thinking scum never really were counting on the “win via 4 defusals” condition. I think they would have been happy to take it if it just happened, but I think more likely is that scum wanted it to *look* like that’s what they were doing while actually trying to get NKs and set up to win conventionally through elo, and by getting enough defusals to make town feel uncomfortable ever defusing, which in turn essentially gives maf a NK every night

Mena won't have enough rope for

Oh, this was in because I wasn’t sure of context from iso but it was talking about how I was gonna be on a rampage if VPB!town

I got your back Dlee

even if VPB flips town

Bear Bros Forever

This is bizarre given the longstanding expressed suspicion of dwlee throughout. Up to the point where, in 4443 he says that even with a VPB scumflip he wouldn’t trust dwlee

Why the change?

i dont understand how vpb is still alive r we being trolled

did he really die 10 pages ago but datisi wont vc cuz i wont give him a pagetop

Actually this is meh and irrelevant, was gonna say more posturing around the VPB lim but meh

I don't get it

you just said it's either GL/Pooky or GL/Ceph for the scum team but you're also saying that if GL flips scum then Pooky and Ceph r both town?

ok if GL/Pooky/Ceph are all town who are your scumreads then

Engaging with misty

VOTE: Mena


4 protectives with a backup protective in a game where scum dont even have 1 NK a night is yea no way.

So this is the reason for voting me initially, or at least the one that’s given

I care about what mech makes sense to be in a game because I know mod meta is absolute and needs to make sense to pass review.

I do not give a shit about whether a PLAY makes sense for a SCUM to do.

Scum do plays that DO NOT MAKE SENSE all the time.

That is part of being scum.

If scum only did plays that makes sense they would get rekt every game.

This

Ceph your defense of mena is gonna look like shit tomm prepare to die dude

Now ceph is scum for defending me – so pooky isn’t after misty at this point really, because for him it’s me and ceph

if you flip town I will make sure misty dies for you buddy

Still making that argument, me and ceph

i hope mena paid you a retainer

More etc

i hope mena paid you a retainer

feel like two posts saying maybe we should think about all the possibilities before rushing in is maybe not worthy of these posts but ok

you're only making this worse for yourself

And more

csf doesn't counterclaim as scum here that's absurd

mb you should be telling mena how to defend himself in the scum PT instead of here

You get the picture

i hope mena paid you a retainer

feel like two posts saying maybe we should think about all the possibilities before rushing in is maybe not worthy of these posts but ok

you're only making this worse for yourself

you're not going to get me killed this game scumbear

nice omgus didnt see it coming at all

Etc etc

its so covenient you scumread mena but when there's an actual chance of the dude dying suddenly you're bending over backwards to make a defense for him

Etc etc etc

i dont even know what your defense of mena is atp actually

Etc etc etc etc, odd callout given that pooky’s only expressed reason for me being scum really is my claiming a protective

there's literally no incentive for scum to be using their nightkills before VPB flips because if their nightkills go thru it literally outs VPB as a scumbag

and everything VPB said is probably just random ass anti-spew - dude knew he was on a limited timeline

i can't possibly imagine scum!CSF making 5344

that is a work of art

csf mvp

game over

lets wrap this up

im really drunk and i dont understand why misty and mena havent surrendered yet

Now it’s me and misty – why did he shift from ceph being scum with me to it being misty? And if I’m the common factor here, why not try to get me killed more?

Instead he just hops onto misty once the wagon goes up

kinda want to say fuck it and just vote mena but also feeling too cocky might not be the best play here if he actually flips town cuz I can see this shit going very sideways

I think this is prepping for my flip being the likely one but wanting to set up as he knows that he’s likely under fire next

like him casing me feels like a lot of effort for scum!him to be making if he's like doomed here

This is a good point but it’s one he that if he doesn’t make as scum then he looks worse for not acknowledging it imo

i lowkey actually do think maybe he just waves a white flag here and concedes if he's actually lone!scum which is kind of gross but he has mentioned playing against wincon on purpose multiple times in the past

Want to mention that this is again, pretty much just completely untrue

I mean do you expect scum!mena to just concede cause that's lame

kind of yes rofl

Also the notion that I would concede when I’ve conceded like one game ever and it was at the explicit request of my hydra partner

like the thing with him pushing me is.

I can totally see him actually being paranoid of me if he's like town cuz dude is fucking terrified of scum!me since I've like eaten him multiple times.

and like I don't think it actually makes sense for him to do this shit!push on me as like cornered scum cuz the odds scum!him actually flips me here is pretty fucking low and like after I flip town where the fuck is he going to go? try to get 2 more misflips?

seems like a tall fucking task ngl

Trying to discredit my read on him being scum, which is the same thing he did in his other posts earlier today

isn't that just how Enchant plays every game

that's actually a good point on scum morale lol

VOTE: Enchant

As I become less popular and continue to do my best to make it clear I’m town, he pivots to the other viable lim for today at that point

[Menalque]

okay, so I fucked up the formatting somewhere but in my defence there's like 6000 words in there

mostly posting bc I don't have the WIM to try and actually discern the stream of consciousness read through that's inside that spoiler down into something shorter and more coherent and better formatted overall, but something something perfect something something enemy of the good, y'know?

if I was to try to summarise the main takeaways as briefly as possible it's this:

Pooky's Baltar progression is actually really,

really

bad when you look at it close up! it doesn't make any real sense and his reasons are unconvincing for why he goes from what seems like very justified suspicion, to not killing Baltar, to actively having Baltar as a top townread, to arguing that he probably needs to die but should be limmed by delusion instead of elimination, into arguing for just regular limming of him

the other thing is that he was massively suspicious of dwlee for a large part of the game, as it turns out! he's really suspicious until the day after andres dies and then he starts walking it back, but is still saying stuff like "but even if VPB!scum dwlee still shouldn't be allowed to defuse" but imo it's never really clear why, after being so convinced that VPB is town for days and that dwlee is scum, when the tide of the game is going towards a VPB lim pooky straight on over to that and just sort of... forgets about dwlee

[Menalque]

it cannot erase for me that sequence that I just quoted

this is kinda what I meant by an ego thing, btw

not a "you needing to be right on me" thing so much as an inability to look past that just being a bad sequence when you look at me holistically

[Menalque]

normally when you're trying to kill someone you're a lot more proactive about it

also CSF was voting with you to name one

[Menalque]

and again the fact that you wanted to kill Baltar D1 is part of the problem -- you actually had pretty good reasons for it, with the perspective slip stuff, but then the reason why you stopped wanting to kill Baltar and moved away from it was.... all sorts of confused and unclear, and never really something that got a satisfactory explanation before you switched back to killing him

[Menalque]

in the n1 PT you literally told me you wanted him to live

in fact not a single fucking person in the n1 pt supported me in wanting to blow up baltar

true

that hasn't stopped you before!

but even so-- why not continue the Baltar push on D2? why completely drop it?

[Menalque]

yoink

[Menalque]

that's not really what I'm saying though

I'm saying your whole trajectory around baltar doesn't really make sense imo -- the initial scum read which seemed well-founded, sure

but after that the ways you went up and down or defended him don't seem to make a lot of sense, especially when you were doing things like saying that he shouldn't be limmed because a lim shouldn't be wasted while simultaneously voting for him to be an expert

I mean all of this is in that spoiler

[Menalque]

for the record: if we lim pooky today and the game doesn't end, I won't even try to suggest that I shouldn't be limmed tomorrow and it would fully be a scumclaim if I did so

you can quote this post and throw it back at me while voting me if I do

I will still try to sort tomorrow if I'm wrong though, but I think the game will end if we lim pooky today

[Menalque]

it cannot erase for me that sequence that I just quoted

this is kinda what I meant by an ego thing, btw

not a "you needing to be right on me" thing so much as an inability to look past that just being a bad sequence when you look at me holistically

The issue for me is that when I look at you holistically my brain puts huge weight on that one specific thing as very important. It's a dominating feature

yeah, okay, I get that too -- I don't think everything should be of equal emphasis when you're taking a holistic view

I wish I could help you to see past the hang up you have on that but I think I've already explained it and I'm not really sure what else I can do? if you want me to try to run through it again I will, but it's really just unfortunate and something I think needs to be overlooked vs everything else instead of something that should lead to all else being dismissed

I will review Pooky's progression and if both of you have equally bad progressions etc. then maybe that changes something.

once again, tis all I can ask of ye

@pooky, we can dance later dude, I need a break so I might go play some video games or read or something

[Menalque]

I will fulfill your request because I no longer find playing in this game enjoyable

I am sorry about this btw, to the extent that me pushing you is responsible

[Menalque]

if he was scum he probably would've conceded by now

I would really appreciate it if you'd stop saying this though, when again, I don't think I've ever conceded in a single game where I haven't been hydra'd with someone, I've always made town lim me when scum

okay, okay, actually going now

[Menalque]

GL, why do you think I’m wrong on pooky? Did you read the spoilered post?

[Menalque]

Pooky, I think you're maf with VP. which is why I'm alive

And Andy, what happened with this read once you’re around again?

[Menalque]

you wanna tunnel me too? lets go

VOTE: Andante

I don’t, actually, I think you’re probably town but I’d like to do my due diligence plus to try and understand why you went from agreeing with me (that pooky is scum) to not agreeing with me now

[Menalque]

Bell

Bell is not in the lim pool

[Menalque]

GL, why do you think I’m wrong on pooky? Did you read the spoilered post?

I actually haven't read the spoiler post yet lol, I'm just coasting off my prior reasoning for town!Pooky. I'll read it and give you a response in a bit but I fundamentally just don't vibe with why any of y'all think he's scum

Okay, I can wait, but I’m gonna need more than “not vibing” with him being scum

I also don’t like that he kinda half-heartedly called me town, then disappeared, only to come back today with an AtE vengeance while trying to deflect from himself

From someone else I’d even be inclined to TR it, but I’ve seen scum!him pull shit like this before

[Menalque]

Even Pooky said that it’s just because he’s annoyed with him, not because he actually thinks Bell is scum

[Menalque]

Well, yes, true, but you could have used CSF who at this point is marginally less town than Bell

[Menalque]

I think CSF is very probably town but I think I’m slightly less town on her than on you or Bell, is what I meant

I still think game most likely ends if just limming all of (me, pooky, enchant) but I have enough reservations about GL to not be sure, and I’d like to reread CSF and Andy at least once more to be sure too

[Menalque]

Do you scent any notes of burning toast?

[Menalque]

Bell, you’re very funny sometimes

[Menalque]

I don’t think mafia really were planning to win by the defuse wincon, but I think they wanted it to look that way for a while

[Menalque]

Spoiler: commentary on the pooky posts I quoted earlier

I do think Tweetie is more on the hedgy side but she's one of those players that becomes more readable the later into a game it gets because she has absolutely terrible endurance as scum so it's p obvious later if she's a baddie.

She's absolutely a monster if she replaces into a game that has flips to work with because she's relentless but I can see her getting confused in a large theme that moves along fairly quickly. She hasn't done anything that makes me think she's town but I tend to give her a longer leash than most because like if she's town then she will be pretty useful later and if she's bad she'll be like obviously bad.

Here because it’s an early defence of MT!scum that probably wasn’t strictly necessary. Could just be him being wrong, but wanted to note.

oh you're here

nice

VOTE: VPB

give me one reason you're town here

Start of the VPB push

oh you're here

nice

VOTE: VPB

give me one reason you're town here

I haven't called you a moron yet. So, ya know, I'm trying!

that's actually not town indicative for you tho lol

usually you've already annoyed me by now :<

Not really clear why pooky scumreads VPB, but that’s not super important, the more important thing is charting his progression here

GL still lines up with my impression of him as scum

can you elaborate on this? what is setting off your bat sensors?

Giving MT some softball questions to help her get into the game?

"you can't townread cephrir for being the only one to think about this because i did too. but i didn't really since it was a half baked idea"

plz tell me what is wrong with my characterization or what the town motivation is

Lol, Greeting can certainly townread you for it. Just wasn't your idea. Credit where it's due.

Maybe you came to the conclusion independently, idk. Just saying you definitely weren't the first person to bring it up. I think greeting is more town than you, so I'd prefer they have all the information when making their decision on reads. That's my motivation.

This is a perspective slip because of what's unsaid here.

from VPB!town's POV - he should be townreading cephrir for having the same thought process as he does - unless he wants to claim that Cephrir is just plagiarizing him 800 posts later or w/e but that's clearly not his intent as he didn't even state things in the way Cephrir did.

Instead he seems peeved that Cephrir is getting town-read for a post that he already made - the goal isn't actually because he thinks Cephrir is scum - he just wants his own town cred for "saying something similar" which is kind of ????

Like this game isn't about seeing who can score the most town!points for statements about game state - this game is about sorting between bad guys and good guys. VP's entire conversation with Cephrir isn't about sorting Cephrir - it's about saying oh it's unfair Ceph is getting credit for something that I already said sort of kind of - which is not a town mindset.

Okay, this is an important one. These are all really fair points on VPB being scum, especially now that VPB has uh, actually flipped scum. This is the sort of thing you would expect to be brought up again, right? Well

I'm gonna check something cuz I pretty much never remember VPB!town making a readlist on day one.

do you have an example of a completed town game I can check this against dude?

Instead, focus is more on something I think is a pretty weak reason to suspect someone. Idk, maybe this is why pooky is better at catching scum than me normally, but someone doing/not doing a readslist D1 seems like the kinda thing that could be for ~whatever~ reason and is a lot less convincing than hammering the perspective slip thing

you've been playing for 13 years and you can't link me a single game where you made a readlist on d1 as town?

More of the same

actually the fact you haven't told me to fuck off yet is kind of hilariously +scum for you

Another very personal, fairly weak, and unlikely to be convincing to anyone else reason for why VPB is scum

I kind of want CSF/Andante/Catboi/Me for my bomb team

Frogster/Greeting/Cephrir/Titus for the other team?

These two are actually a point against pooky!scum, I think – I would have expected him to want one scum in both expert teams? Whereas this would have been super, super town-stacked if it had gone through

I have no issues with letting VPB defuse every bomb if these scumfucks keep putting him up to defuse bombs


HEAL: vpb

Okay, this is the first weird bit where he’s completely forgotten about the perspective slip/VPB being scum and pooky is advocating for VPB to keep being a defuser

Between her and Andres it seems obvious they are switching in widely suspected players on purpose but I don't understand what the goal is

I think if they pick a widely suspected town player for the defuser - we can just blow that person up and POE narrows for them and they don't really get anywhere.

If they pick themselves for defuser - they run a risk of blowing themselves up.

So the least bad move they have is to target the same townread player - make the bombs stack up on them hoping we break, while using the swap to target people that are suspected in order to set up future mislims

This, in hindsight, looks bad to me – it’s a roundabout way of arguing that VPB should keep defusing. The subtext is that we shouldn’t break i.e. detonate someone/lim them so long as the defuser is townread – and who’s the defuser who’s been subbed in twice? That’s right, our flipped scum, VPB. And who is pooky now pushing as being towny despite never really having addressed why his read changed despite “others in the PT thought that we shouldn’t kill him and I was worried I’d die next if I unilaterally took him out”. Because that’s a reason to not blow him up sure – but it’s not a reason to come round to him being town and to forget the reasons he was scum to you in the first place

this setup is absolutely brutal for scum - instead of having nightkills they basically squeeze their own POE lol

This and another post seem to be griping about the setup being unfair for scum, which I think is the sort of thing that’s slightly more likely to come from scum in the abstract, and combined with the other reasons for pooky being scum is quite telling overall

VOTE: mala

speed~run~hype

Pooky immediately hops on the mala wagon, despite not having any real interest in her prior to this. In fairness, I can see town!pooky doing this too, but it would have been important for scum pooky who was probably already thinking about endgame to make sure he got on the bus for the cred

we shouldn't lim VPB because scum are going to try to blow him up anyway(if they don't try to blow him up thats basically a scumclaim)

no point doing their dirty work for them make him eat a bullet for someone else.

like game this out

if our policy is to blow up VPB if he gets a bomb

then scum will always make VPB the defuser if VPB is town

so when that happens booom time

and voila we solve the VPB issue without losing a lim

there's literally no point to divert and get paranoid of VPB atp - we're just playing into the scum wifom.

The above two go together, I think. So the reason to not have VPB limmed is because he needs to made defuser, right? Because if he’s town, scum will make him defuser and we can kill him that way. And if scum won’t make him defuser, it’s a scumclaim and we can lim him. Great!

So why is pooky voting for him to be an expert at this point? You know, one of the things that prevents him being made defuser, which is apparently how pooky wants to sovle the slot despite still never having actually explained what changed for him on why VPB was scum to town.

I investigated VPB he's a dirty scumfuck

This one is weird

actually i was just thinking if we put 3 defusals on VPB and he gets a fourth defusal done

he's basically an IC

We would have lost the game if we’d done this

or if we policy blow him up at 4th defusal, we have 0 chance of losing

if VPB is town, we reset to 0 defusals for scum and we get three more defusals with no worries.

if VPB is scum, we just policy bomb everyone and dare the scumbags to try to win

Still advocating for VPB to keep defusing despite it not being clear what makes VPB town

to pookyp

other than having been picked as defuser twice

that is meant in a humorous way and not an obscene or mean way

love you dwlee(even if you r scumbaggo)

Okay, this is the other important thing from pooky’s ISO imo, his dwlee read

I was super confident in my strange read, but the way strange said what they said, I kinda doubt that read I had. Dwlee/Pooky interactions feel odd but idk what I think about it, and uhh yeah! Mala ISO is just.. lol nope it's just prodging tbh

dwlee just trying to make me look bad when they inevitably flip scum

So there’s a lot of him talking about how dwlee is scum

Dwlee just desperately flailing at the air here

A loooooot

probly 4 of these 5:

Dwlee99
Enchant
Titus
Mala
Strange

Wanted to note this one because there is a max of 2 scum in here and I think quite likely only 1. Think that’s worth noting because pooky is happy to call out his accuracy as being super high normally. And it’s also worth noting that pooky really hard transitions on titus later, and his enchant read is never really substantiated either

Pooky, why did you agree to save VP? after saying how he was for sure scum D1?

well everyone else thought he was town and I didn't want to get blamed if he blew up and was town cuz then i'm dead next

also he yelled at me and I'm susceptible to AtE >.>

Mostly I don't think VPB has the guts to put himself into a bomb squad when I'm swearing up and down that I want to murder him and he knows I almost never change my mind because I'm stubborn as hell and tend to death-tunnel - I think it's more likely that scum set him up to make me want to blow him up and then I get elimmed on the day after for blowing him up.

Okay, this is as much of an explanation as we get for pooky shifting on VPB. And it’s, I guess, sort of plausible? But that’s not saying a huge amount for me, because

of course

it’s sort of plausible, because pooky is a good player and knows how to work a narrative. But why doesn’t this get brought up any earlier – why has all the other stuff about not killing VPB been to do with him being picked to be defuser by scum instead of actually arguing for why VPB is town based on his actions?

mala scum just lolcatting at us

i think game is pretty much wrapped

Mala scum who pooky is very confident on now despite not being a concern for nearly all the game. This is p weaksauce tho, it just caught my eye as I was going through

it literally makes 0 sense to execute VPB.

if we execute VPB!Town, we basically lost a lim for nothing.

if we are playing in the VPB!scum world, then scum are going for some weird af wifom game where they are trying to win via VPB defusals.

in which case they will put up VPB to defuse the bomb.

in which case we can just blow him up and we keep our lim and scum waste a night.

More defending VPB. But why does pooky want VPB blown up if he thinks he’s town? And why, if he thinks blowing him up is the right move, was he talking earlier about how maybe we should let VPB get 3 or possibly 4 defusals? It makes no fucking sense

blowing up VPB town is a lot better than limming VPB town

More advocacy of why VPB is not a good lim. This will also be important later

in other words blowing up VPB is preferable to limming VPB regardless of VPB alignment

and if scum are trying to win via vpb defusing shit, they have to put up VPB as defuser again.

scum want us to twist ourselves into a pretzel overthinking this paranoia bullshit

Wow, it sure seems convenient to me that we should just let VPB continue to live until he gets made defuser again!

and if scum are trying to win via vpb defusing shit, they have to put up VPB as defuser again.

Didn't understand logic behind this one.

if we are in the world where scum are trying to win via defusals

THEN

I'm assuming scum don't have any1 more townread than VPB because if they did

they would use that person to defuse bombs instead of stacking up on VPB.

imo we're just being led towards paranoia because if scum don't crack townblock with paranoia they get POE'd out

Well, no, not necessarily. Let’s think about this – it’s always kind of a risk to try and win on defuses because you might always have a catboi/frog situation. So putting your towniest member in to try and defuse might pay off, but frankly nobody was towny enough to do all 4 probably. Plus

by virtue

of being chosen, that person is probably gonna look more and more suspicious. So I think it would make a lot of sense to, say, have someone who knows they may well go down do as many defusals as they can get away with, while saving your towniest player to try and win conventionally

Broke: Koba playing a million games with me: Dwlee is impossible to read deep wolf don Corleone

Woke: Andante playing with me a few games and I'm easy to read

Dwlee flexing their deepwolf muscles on us

ngl 35% of why I think vpbaltar is town is because I think if dwlee was scum with vpb they would've tried to bus VPB for the cred so they could get the last 2 defusals needed yes I have cool thoughts because I am a cool bear.

So pooky is still thinking VPB is town at this point apparently, and he’s still very much thinking that dwlee is scum

i don't think i've ever read a dwlee scum game where they posted a single complicated thought in my life

here

ok dwlee show me a single post from this game that could be construed as "complicated thought"

and here

Dwlee's scum game is like 3 inches deep

and here too

I have 175 posts in this game and they are all:
1. Andante talk to me
2. Eat hot chip
3. Be non-binary
4. Twerk
5. Lie

you forgot "push convenient wagons" buddy

and some more pushing dwlee here as well

and now I'm interacting and nothing is happening

cuz dlee is terrified of you

uh yeah, not sure why this one is here now I’m reading through

They're pretty much always where the scum aren't this game.

What does that mean?

They're voting exclusively town with brain dead vote parks and about as much flexibility as an iceberg.

and like what even is this complaint

d1 i voted vpb

i changed my mind on him in the bomb PT (so much for no flexibility)

d2 i voted for frogster because dude needed to die

d3 i voted for mala because she basically was lolcatting and not even playing the game.

she turned up and started posting after hammer already landed

what exactly are you even blaming me for

but like… the changing of the mind isn’t really what was said. It’s duelling explanations being provided – sometimes he changed his mind because he really thought that VPB wouldn’t put himself in that position, sometimes it’s because he was worried that if he was wrong then he’d be blown up

@CSF, go look at pooky’s iso in the n1 bomb pt. you can confirm for everyone else that only at one point does he allude to actually reconsidering VPB as town, and even then it’s not for the reason he’s talked about elsewhere (that VPB would have to have huge balls to make himself defuser when pooky was in the expert group) although I’ll grant that it’s similar. It’s because he says that he thinks baltar trying to case him in the PT while he has power of life and death over him is towny

after dwlee murders me in cold blood pls do not let them get away with it tyvm

Back on that dwlee!scum hype

cuz dlee is a scumbag

And again

Definitely Town:

Bell
VPB
Andy
Greeting
Cephrir (if I am wrong about anyone in this tier its Ceph but I don't think I'm wrong)

Probably Town:

Mena
CSF
Andres

Null:

GuiltyLion
MistyX
Titus
StrangeMatter

Scum:

Dwlee
Enchant

Dwlee and enchant are at the bottom of the scumpile. Sooooo why is he not really advocating for either of their deaths? Also, titus has moved up from scum to null, along with misty and strangematter, from back in 2974. Why? Let’s look at their posts inbetween

[INSERT POSTS]

Okay, so what caused the shift here?

DO NOT LET DWLEE GET AWAY WITH BLOWING ME UP

More yelling about dwlee scum. This seems like a very strong read!

DWLEE IS TRYING TO SPIN SOME WEIRD BULLSHIT SCENARIO THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN A MILLION YEARS TO EXCUSE BLOWING ME UP DO NOT BELIEVE THEM KILL THEM TOMMORROW IMMEDIATELY

And again

They're going to have all sorts of bullshit excuses why it's fine:

"We can never trust pooky"

"He was just a VT"

"I would be sneaky about it if I was scum"

"There's no way I would openly plot to blow up Pooky and then actually do it"


This is classic refuge in audacity and every word is designed to make you think they won't do it, in fact the more brazen it is the more likely it is they get away with this shit.

Pooky super super convinced on dwlee being scum! VPB is a top townread according to his own recent post!

dwlee can you walk me through why you told scum to make me defuser so you could blow me up?

also did you think the group you were in was all town prior to today?

Uh, not sure of the context here given that pooky has never been defuser

think scum walked into that bomb session with the plan of blowing up Andres - when bomb expert is mafia its basically a strongman kill so this was planned out ahead of time.

I do think Dwlee made a good point that it doesn't make sense for them to bus Mala for cred and then openwolf a bomb explosion because now they can never endgame - unless SM is also scum and they're pulling a double bus. But even then it feels like a very shit exchange for them.

I don't think VPB makes sense as scum because blowing up Andres doesn't fit with that win condition

Okay, so VPB doesn’t make sense as scum either

I guess it makes sense if VPB is bussing SM for towncred to get another defusal tonight

This is where the VPB townread starts to get walked back

I don't think it makes sense to get cold feet on SM now because we had this same issue yesterday.

Never let VPB defuse another bomb regardless of SM flip imo.

But pooky, why does SM sacrifice herself for andres?

I don't think VPB makes sense as scum because blowing up Andres doesn't fit with that win condition

why not? he's with 2 top SRs as defusers, thinks theyboth get limmed over him. yeet 2 town, then he goes. all while having 2 partners still alive. perfect plan. unless you're his buddyand know this already

no VPB gets blown up tonight or we lim him tomm

So now we’re fully back to killing VPB. But why the fuck, if he’s scum, would scum make him defuser knowing that he’s now in the scumpool? It’s not gonna happen, and I don’t think pooky can reasonably think that. So this is essentially just saying “let’s let him live another day”

I don't get how that clears misty

Misty is now back in the suspect pool despite having been in null earlier

like if we're at town!VPB scum!misty, why wouldnt misty just let VPB defuse and become focal point of game and misyeeted?

its better for scum to have townies be misyeeted than blown up by a bomb

this seems pertinent to the discussion today – pooky fully understands why scum need to have townies reserved for mislims. But then he conflates my point about “why wouldn’t I kill dwlee who’s tunnelling me and very town?” with “why wouldn’t I put you and dwlee together and let him blow you up?” when the answer is clearly that my townflip clarifies the game and makes it harder for pooky to win

esp if VPB!Town already defused a bomb on night 1, then Misty!scum has a lot of incentive to let VPB!town defuse again and give them a NK and it creates town paranoia on VPB and a misyeet possible in the future

I think this is angling to support limming misty before dwlee/VPB – something that baltar was also trying to do, and I think it’s clear why. If misty had flipped first, it would have allowed them to argue that dwlee and VPB were

both

town, and that andres died because of the rigged bomb ability

Pooky, I think you're maf with VP. which is why I'm alive

heartbreaking

I actually included this one more because I wanted to know -- Andy, did you follow up on this?

HEAL: Mena

Worth noting this one because apparently I’m still town to pooky here

HEAL: Titus

maybe you can cheer her up in the PT

HURT: Mena

Okay, not super strong town, but you take my point

ngl this game would be better if we picked the defuser and the scum had to pick the experts

This fits into the griping about the setup being unfair/disadvantageous to scum thing I mentioned before

Mena do you think Dwlee is scum with VPBaltar?

Cuz I'm not sure what the point of this fight with you is if Baltar is flipping town here.

like the options are:

Dwlee town VPB scum, Dwlee thinks Mena is VPB's buddy
Dwlee scum VPB scum, Dwlee wants to chain Mena after VPB
Dwlee scum VPB town, Dwlee is pre-chaining to convince us that Dwlee is inno to win a 1v1?

These two posts were both good and I think read like pooky engaging with someone who he believes is town and wants to convince

I can see town Mena thinking you're scum for thinking he's scum but it's not compelling to me cuz you still need to flip Baltar scum first

A notion further supported by him talking about how he can see me as town here

notice how VP hasn’t gone back to being defuser… scum team knows he explodes if he goes back, so why wouldn’t town!vp go back to defusing???

well if VP is town he wouldn't go back to defuse either because Dwlee gets autoyeeted

But in 3912 pooky was arguing that VPB shouldn’t be limmed the previous day because he could get blown up! I don’t think there’s a significant difference between the two days, is there? Admittedly the pool was down to 50/50 by that point, but does anyone really want to argue that if baltar had been picked the night before he also wouldn’t have been blown up (maybe, maybe if it had been me/enchant/pooky but almost any other combo and it was very likely)

I think we need to flip VP just to see where we are on the defusal meter

if dude flips scum we don't defuse any bombs no matter who shows up in the PT

i dont care if catboi comes back from the dead

This is completely at odds with what pooky has argued previously about letting VPB live in order to blow him up instead

I agree with not defusing anymore unless GL flips town (or I'm the defuser o3o)

I would definitely not trust you to defuse a bomb if VP flips scum :3

Sooooo pooky is supposedly still on that dwlee scum train, or at least he’s fronting that he’s suspicious of him here

ok i've seen enough

VOTE: VP Baltar

Now follows up on the previous stuff by voting him

yea im sure scum you would be blazing away with the machine guns and making it super obvious you are scum

you have convinced me

so you're saying if you're scum

and you have successful defusals

you would shoot up this town

to make it obvious that scum defused the bomb overnight?

Pooky piling back onto VPB as scum now

just from a risk mitigation standpoint shouldn't we just flip VPB

if he's town then mafia are nowhere close to winning and we kill dwlee tomm

and if he's mafia then yah dead scum whooohoooo

More justification for it

I tend to play for worst case scenario

if VPB is town, we can defuse 2 more times safely so we can block the mafia bomb kill twice.

if VPB is scum, we kinda can't afford to defuse anything

This also seems off – like if we needed to know by limming baltar, shouldn’t we have limmed baltar on D4 instead of strange from pooky’s pov? Otherwise letting a defuse go through was doable but would perpetually put us into a state of “we should probably lim every defuser unless GL flips” which is, uh, exactly where we’ve ended up

does Andy!scum fake a mech clear on her scum partner Dwlee when Dwlee is already winning the 1v1

I mean you can't really think this

Okay yes, I was being dumb here and this is a fair point

whats your question

if you think vp is scum why would you risk scum getting to 3/4 defuses by letting another bomb go through

because I'm not 100% sure on VP being mafia and scum

do not win at 3 even if VP is scum

also GL's first post in the hood PT felt really townie and honest to me. He didn't really feel like he was pushing for being spared - also I don't think there's any reason for Scum!GL to really expect the three of us to townread him.

look if VPB is mafia here - we simply do not defuse any more bombs period

there is no point to take that risk.

if you want to litigate whether GL is a partner we can have that discussion here in the open thread rather than execute in a closed hood.

if VPB flips scum here...

like GL is never defusing another bomb.[no1 in their right mind would let him defuse another bomb]

I am never defusing a bomb.

If the scum really r doing 4 defusal win condition it would have to be someone extremely townread as the third partner

This seems to me like it’s meant to cast potential suspicion on future townread players like dwlee or andy

Reading back through the game, I’m now thinking scum never really were counting on the “win via 4 defusals” condition. I think they would have been happy to take it if it just happened, but I think more likely is that scum wanted it to *look* like that’s what they were doing while actually trying to get NKs and set up to win conventionally through elo, and by getting enough defusals to make town feel uncomfortable ever defusing, which in turn essentially gives maf a NK every night

Mena won't have enough rope for

Oh, this was in because I wasn’t sure of context from iso but it was talking about how I was gonna be on a rampage if VPB!town

I got your back Dlee

even if VPB flips town

Bear Bros Forever

This is bizarre given the longstanding expressed suspicion of dwlee throughout. Up to the point where, in 4443 he says that even with a VPB scumflip he wouldn’t trust dwlee

Why the change?

i dont understand how vpb is still alive r we being trolled

did he really die 10 pages ago but datisi wont vc cuz i wont give him a pagetop

Actually this is meh and irrelevant, was gonna say more posturing around the VPB lim but meh

I don't get it

you just said it's either GL/Pooky or GL/Ceph for the scum team but you're also saying that if GL flips scum then Pooky and Ceph r both town?

ok if GL/Pooky/Ceph are all town who are your scumreads then

Engaging with misty

VOTE: Mena


4 protectives with a backup protective in a game where scum dont even have 1 NK a night is yea no way.

So this is the reason for voting me initially, or at least the one that’s given

I care about what mech makes sense to be in a game because I know mod meta is absolute and needs to make sense to pass review.

I do not give a shit about whether a PLAY makes sense for a SCUM to do.

Scum do plays that DO NOT MAKE SENSE all the time.

That is part of being scum.

If scum only did plays that makes sense they would get rekt every game.

This

Ceph your defense of mena is gonna look like shit tomm prepare to die dude

Now ceph is scum for defending me – so pooky isn’t after misty at this point really, because for him it’s me and ceph

if you flip town I will make sure misty dies for you buddy

Still making that argument, me and ceph

i hope mena paid you a retainer

More etc

i hope mena paid you a retainer

feel like two posts saying maybe we should think about all the possibilities before rushing in is maybe not worthy of these posts but ok

you're only making this worse for yourself

And more

csf doesn't counterclaim as scum here that's absurd

mb you should be telling mena how to defend himself in the scum PT instead of here

You get the picture

i hope mena paid you a retainer

feel like two posts saying maybe we should think about all the possibilities before rushing in is maybe not worthy of these posts but ok

you're only making this worse for yourself

you're not going to get me killed this game scumbear

nice omgus didnt see it coming at all

Etc etc

its so covenient you scumread mena but when there's an actual chance of the dude dying suddenly you're bending over backwards to make a defense for him

Etc etc etc

i dont even know what your defense of mena is atp actually

Etc etc etc etc, odd callout given that pooky’s only expressed reason for me being scum really is my claiming a protective

there's literally no incentive for scum to be using their nightkills before VPB flips because if their nightkills go thru it literally outs VPB as a scumbag

and everything VPB said is probably just random ass anti-spew - dude knew he was on a limited timeline

i can't possibly imagine scum!CSF making 5344

that is a work of art

csf mvp

game over

lets wrap this up

im really drunk and i dont understand why misty and mena havent surrendered yet

Now it’s me and misty – why did he shift from ceph being scum with me to it being misty? And if I’m the common factor here, why not try to get me killed more?

Instead he just hops onto misty once the wagon goes up

kinda want to say fuck it and just vote mena but also feeling too cocky might not be the best play here if he actually flips town cuz I can see this shit going very sideways

I think this is prepping for my flip being the likely one but wanting to set up as he knows that he’s likely under fire next

like him casing me feels like a lot of effort for scum!him to be making if he's like doomed here

This is a good point but it’s one he that if he doesn’t make as scum then he looks worse for not acknowledging it imo

i lowkey actually do think maybe he just waves a white flag here and concedes if he's actually lone!scum which is kind of gross but he has mentioned playing against wincon on purpose multiple times in the past

Want to mention that this is again, pretty much just completely untrue

I mean do you expect scum!mena to just concede cause that's lame

kind of yes rofl

Also the notion that I would concede when I’ve conceded like one game ever and it was at the explicit request of my hydra partner

like the thing with him pushing me is.

I can totally see him actually being paranoid of me if he's like town cuz dude is fucking terrified of scum!me since I've like eaten him multiple times.

and like I don't think it actually makes sense for him to do this shit!push on me as like cornered scum cuz the odds scum!him actually flips me here is pretty fucking low and like after I flip town where the fuck is he going to go? try to get 2 more misflips?

seems like a tall fucking task ngl

Trying to discredit my read on him being scum, which is the same thing he did in his other posts earlier today

isn't that just how Enchant plays every game

that's actually a good point on scum morale lol

VOTE: Enchant

As I become less popular and continue to do my best to make it clear I’m town, he pivots to the other viable lim for today at that point

okay, so I fucked up the formatting somewhere but in my defence there's like 6000 words in there

mostly posting bc I don't have the WIM to try and actually discern the stream of consciousness read through that's inside that spoiler down into something shorter and more coherent and better formatted overall, but something something perfect something something enemy of the good, y'know?

if I was to try to summarise the main takeaways as briefly as possible it's this:

Pooky's Baltar progression is actually really,

really

bad when you look at it close up! it doesn't make any real sense and his reasons are unconvincing for why he goes from what seems like very justified suspicion, to not killing Baltar, to actively having Baltar as a top townread, to arguing that he probably needs to die but should be limmed by delusion instead of elimination, into arguing for just regular limming of him

the other thing is that he was massively suspicious of dwlee for a large part of the game, as it turns out! he's really suspicious until the day after andres dies and then he starts walking it back, but is still saying stuff like "but even if VPB!scum dwlee still shouldn't be allowed to defuse" but imo it's never really clear why, after being so convinced that VPB is town for days and that dwlee is scum, when the tide of the game is going towards a VPB lim pooky straight on over to that and just sort of... forgets about dwlee

If you could take a look at this when you have a chance, CSF

[Menalque]

I uh

Did not consider the consequences of quoting something where the tags were already broken lol

[Menalque]

Very funny that it somehow turned the text of the last post orange though

[Menalque]

Thank you oh wise and all powerful modgod

[Menalque]

(But actually thank you, I know that sounded a little sarcastic potentially)

[Menalque]

Enchant is probably town lol

[Menalque]

Enchant is probably town lol

[Menalque]

If you want to argue against me then you may want to read the very large post under the spoiler in order to argue against what I’m actually saying

[Menalque]

I believe somebody once said

“The goal of scum is to not look like you are scum - it is to survive for another day.

[...]

It's about whether [their] emotional responses make sense for the situation [they’re] in.“

I think that pooky today has been all about trying to survive for another day while trying to act cool/emotional alternately to that end

There was the very dramatic but rather brief self-vote yesterday, followed by him saying he’d take a break from thread to chill out and that he hoped he’d be dead by the time he game back

But now that he’s actually becoming a viable lim with two people voting him and GL maybe coming round in that direction, he’s back early and his focus is still on discrediting me and trying to survive — it’s not about finding scum and nailing them to the fucking wall, which is what pooky as town would be doing, it’s all about saying or doing whatever he needs to do to not be eliminated

If he was town, he should feel that, even if we’re wrong on him, we have a pretty good shot at winning and the goal is to help town navigate to that (see: what I’ve been doing all day). But it’s not, it’s survival

Why?

[Menalque]

oh yes the "hes not finding scum" "hes trying to defend himself against me" attack

truly stellar reasoning

i guess i must be mafia for trying to defend myself then rofl

It is not the fact that you’re trying to defend yourself against me

It is that you continue to have close to zero interest in finding scum and everything you are doing is aimed at defending yourself by engaging with me or what I’m saying

This is a stark contrast to town!pooky who is very interested and motivated to eliminate scum

I suspect that one cause of this difference is that you are in a position where pushing me and surviving long term has become increasingly untenable, and you do not have a good back up option to push

So instead you have to keep trying to say that whatever I’m saying is idiocy while avoiding engagement with the points actually being made

It is my secondary suspicion that you are hoping that people will read your AtE and engagement with me as being a sign of TvT, and that this may help you survive if I do flip first

[Menalque]

like i literally said to you;

hey i would like to reread the whole game when i have time on my computer when i have time next week because right now I am on mobile only.

but keep going off on how im not scum hunting cuz i defended myself by refuting the first part of your "case"

i already regret coming back to talk to you.

you just treat everything in such bad faith

.

The irony

everything i argued against is what you actually said in your case

you blame me for not blowing him up in the n1 pt

despite you coming jnto the n1 pt and demanding we defuse the bomb for him

despite not a single person voting vpb with me on d1 at the end vote count

despite everyone in the pt solving their bomb parts for him

yes i went along with consensus and just solved

but its WHAT YOU FUCKING TOLD ME TO DO

so why r u being such a hypocrite!?!?!?



you blame for not pushing vPB on d2

how the fuck does it make sense for me to push him on d2 when i just let him live on n1?

like this is just nonsense.

Okay, question for the crowd: is it unclear for everybody how this is not what my argument for pooky why pooky is scum is, or is it only pooky who doesn’t get how he’s not addressing what I’m actually saying?

Because if everybody else can understand it from what I’ve already said, including outside of my “laundry list” then it should be clear for pooky too, right? Which strongly suggests that his continued attempts to argue against positions I don’t actually hold is wilful and because he’s aware that he doesn’t have good answers for the case I’m actually making

[Menalque]

Ugh anyway I think scum!menalque is absolutely required to do what he did with the reads on me/strange/baltar... Town him I am really struggling to understand how he literally flips his reads on three people into the exact perfect configuration for scum literally overnight.

And his read on Baltar N1 was townreading enough to pressure y'all to defuse apparently but again it changes to scumread into townread at the exact perfect time. I'm gonna pull up the quotes again

What is confusing about this?

I wasn’t particularly TRing Baltar on N1 but I thought we should use the mechanics as they were probably intended and defuse regardless. If I’d been

very strongly scum

on Baltar, I might have changed my mind but I didn’t

My N1 reads going into the PT were, for those offwagon,
GL -> CSF -> ceph/strange/enchant -> pooky/VPB -> misty from unlikely scum to likely scum

Going into D2 this is what happened: I note to myself that I’m starting to come around on VPB because of the way he was engaging, but not sure if I should really read cooperation and helpfulness as town. He continues to do this, and I start to buy into the read. Then he gets picked as defuser again and I think that for insurance we should lim him. Then I speak with greeting about whatever the fuck the read was, I think on enchant, who I’d been wanting to TR but felt like I didn’t have good reasons for, so I switch to deciding to just trust my feels on VPB which were town by this point

I didn’t really townread you or strange going into that night, hence my confusion as to why you were selected especially after Andres who I did think was town by that point was dead

Capiche?

[Menalque]

what is your case?

i am addressing the first two things i read

which were

pooky is scum for not blowing up vpb in n1 pt

and

pooky is scum for not pushing vpb on d2

write your one sentence point and ill address it

like why would you even write 4 paragraphs about how im misrepping your case

just write your most compelling point and i will read it and address it

im not refuting a 5000 word laundry list

Because I have already said multiple times what my argument is

It is, as far as I’m aware, clear to absolutely everybody who is not you

Whats more likely: you happen by sheer chance to be reading the same posts as everyone else yet the only one who doesn’t understand the argument actually being made? That you do understand but are pretending not to so as to engage with a much easier argument to defend yourself from? Or you’re not actually bothering to read my posts which would be a pretty weird thing to do from someone who actually needs to sort people?

[Menalque]

Enchant was someone else I wanted to townread because of how I felt about the way they were interacting without being able to justify to myself how their posts were any different from the posts they would make as scum — I.e. if I think I would like someone’s posts either way just for what they are, it’s not a good idea to TR them

[Menalque]

Greeting making me feel better about enchant actually being town made me more inclined to trust that gut feeling even if I couldn’t justify it to myself, and put it down to my subconscious or emotive reads being good

Evidently should have stuck to my original thinking but I didn’t and we’re here now

[Menalque]

I haven't read it yet (I'm so sorry omg)

>.>

[Menalque]

Nah, I’m sticking to my guns

If it’s unclear to the others how what you’re saying isn’t addressing what I’m saying, then I haven’t been as clear as I thought and I’ll have another try

If they all do get it and don’t need me to explain that, I think it’s another sign of why you’re scum!

[Menalque]

Idk if this is TMI but my doctor and insurance have been dragging their feet on filling my adderall prescription for over a month now so I've had a lot more trouble focusing lately

Sorry to hear that btw, great sympathy for those who have to fuck around with insurance for medical stuff

[Menalque]

VOTE: mena

sure

your case is so amazing you cant even explain it to me

I clearly can because I have, in multiple posts, over the last several day’s

You’re the one who has apparently failed to comprehend it

[Menalque]

Also lowkey kinda funny that you’ve dedicated as much time as you have to calling me bad/an idiot/detrimental to town’s hopes of winning yet with probably only 3 lims left you’ve voted two people you think are town, and yourself

[Menalque]

its actually amazing you can be this arrogant while being completely wrong

absolutely mindboggling to me

There also tends to be a point where just repeating “you’re arrogant and wrong” tends to start running a little tiresome with people when it’s not coupled with any solving

I wouldn’t deign to say when that point will hit, but I would imagine that the ice upon which ye skate may be starting to somewhat thin

[Menalque]

well according to you its cuz im scum so wouldnt actually be funny :3

I mean yes, that is the subtext, well done. I think you used the selfvote and Bell votes as AtE plots and I think your claimed frustration with me is to justify trying to get the lim that you thought was in the bag coming into today and that you didn’t need to make any effort to try and secure

[Menalque]

it would be nice if i could talk about your actual main argument but you continue to refuse to even state it for me

Pooky

I’ve stated it multiple times

Are you trying to say I haven’t? Have you read my posts today?

I’ve also said exactly why I’m not going into it with you now. Did you fail to understand that too, or is this repeated hammering of the “why won’t you explain >:(“ just a cheap rhetorical trick?

I’ve also said, very very clearly, that if the others say that they don’t get how what you’re arguing against is different from my actual argument then I will attempt to explain

Why are you wasting all of our time trying to badger me about this instead of looking for scum?

[Menalque]

well according to you its cuz im scum so wouldnt actually be funny :3

I mean yes, that is the subtext, well done. I think you used the selfvote and Bell votes as AtE plots and I think your claimed frustration with me is to justify trying to get the lim that you thought was in the bag coming into today and that you didn’t need to make any effort to try and secure

yes cuz hard defending you as town is the best way to secure your lim

its actually funny how delusional you are

Funnily enough, the thing that determines someone’s lim in mafia is not, at the end of the day, whether you called them town, but whether you vote for them or not

[Menalque]

what is your case?

i am addressing the first two things i read

which were

pooky is scum for not blowing up vpb in n1 pt

and

pooky is scum for not pushing vpb on d2

write your one sentence point and ill address it

like why would you even write 4 paragraphs about how im misrepping your case

just write your most compelling point and i will read it and address it

im not refuting a 5000 word laundry list

Because I have already said multiple times what my argument is

It is, as far as I’m aware, clear to absolutely everybody who is not you

Whats more likely: you happen by sheer chance to be reading the same posts as everyone else yet the only one who doesn’t understand the argument actually being made? That you do understand but are pretending not to so as to engage with a much easier argument to defend yourself from? Or you’re not actually bothering to read my posts which would be a pretty weird thing to do from someone who actually needs to sort people?

Did you read this post? If so, do you understand it?

[Menalque]

I think it’s pretty clear and written in a simple vernacular for anybody to grasp, but you seem to be having trouble

[Menalque]

what is your case?

i am addressing the first two things i read

which were

pooky is scum for not blowing up vpb in n1 pt

and

pooky is scum for not pushing vpb on d2

write your one sentence point and ill address it

like why would you even write 4 paragraphs about how im misrepping your case

just write your most compelling point and i will read it and address it

im not refuting a 5000 word laundry list

Because I have already said multiple times what my argument is

It is, as far as I’m aware, clear to absolutely everybody who is not you

Whats more likely: you happen by sheer chance to be reading the same posts as everyone else yet the only one who doesn’t understand the argument actually being made? That you do understand but are pretending not to so as to engage with a much easier argument to defend yourself from? Or you’re not actually bothering to read my posts which would be a pretty weird thing to do from someone who actually needs to sort people?

Did you read this post? If so, do you understand it?

why do you continue to be a pompous ass instead of just writing out what your main point is

what is your case?

i am addressing the first two things i read

which were

pooky is scum for not blowing up vpb in n1 pt

and

pooky is scum for not pushing vpb on d2

write your one sentence point and ill address it

like why would you even write 4 paragraphs about how im misrepping your case

just write your most compelling point and i will read it and address it

im not refuting a 5000 word laundry list

Because I have already said multiple times what my argument is

It is, as far as I’m aware, clear to absolutely everybody who is not you

Whats more likely: you happen by sheer chance to be reading the same posts as everyone else yet the only one who doesn’t understand the argument actually being made? That you do understand but are pretending not to so as to engage with a much easier argument to defend yourself from? Or you’re not actually bothering to read my posts which would be a pretty weird thing to do from someone who actually needs to sort people?

Did you read this post? If so, do you understand it?

[Menalque]

I assume that we can all see how pooky is playing dumb when I’ve explained very clearly why I’m not engaging with him on something I’ve already explained (3 times, after glancing at my iso!) and is instead continuing to badger on this point

[Menalque]

Oh, I almost wrote an actually mean post because I’m getting frustrated enough by the way pooky is trying to play today, so I’m gonna take a timeout

I’ll be around later

Question for those who are not called pooky: I feel like me pointing out how he’s being ridiculous is spamming up the thread, but I also feel uncomfortable letting him try to assert a narrative unchallenged. Is me engaging him and calling him out helpful, or is it making the thread less readable for you/a place you don’t want to be? Pls let me know in following posts so I know whether I should continue or just let him talk into the air

[Menalque]

Excellent point

Not really, you being wrong on strange and dwlee being right on mala isn’t really a good reason for one or the other of you to automatically lead on the others

[Menalque]

But, okay, I’ve said my piece and if dwlee still can’t see I’m town they can’t see I’m town

Bell, kill pooky tomorrow

If Bell dies overnight and y’all don’t kill pooky tomorrow then I think you deserve the loss tbh

[Menalque]

Last thing is to address once more why pooky is scum

Namely, the problem is not that he didn’t try to kill baltar on D2 and didn’t blow him up on N1, it’s that his read on Baltar TOTALLY DISAPPEARED despite having a very solid foundation

In fact, not only did it disappear, but he started townreading baltar for being selected as defuser twice and argued that he shouldn’t be limmed because of it... while st the same time arguing that baltar was best sorted by being blown up instead of limmed! He kept this up until baltar was in a position where he was going down, at which point he switched to bussing him, despite the fact that the alternative was someone he was previously UTTERLY CONVINCED was scum, to the point that he said that even if baltar was scum, dwlee still shouldn’t be allowed to defuse later on — yet baltar had to be limmed first despite pooky’s standing townread on him that came out of nowhere

[Menalque]

Pooky has clearly had plenty of time to be in thread the last couple of days. Look at how he’s used it. Instead of spending any time looking for scum — and nobody is asking him to case, I agree that’s shitty to do on mobile — but he’s not even trying! — he’s decided to get into a multipage argument with someone he thinks is town. He’s done his absolute best to have that engagement in a heated and unpleasant way, probably to make people not want to be in or engage with the thread. We all know pooky is capable of being very nice when he engages. His unpleasantness here is strategic.

He’s continued to endlessly belabour the same couple of points, even when it’s been explained why I’m not willing to talk about them right there (see: why I wasn’t prepared to tell him the main points of my argument against him and how it’s different from the defence he’s been trying to give). This is not a town mindset or group of behaviours. This is scum desperately trying to survive and to mess up the thread. I think it’s very damning that he needs me limmed to stand a chance (I was definitely in the group of planned mislims that scum were counting on to get to elo) and has managed to contrive a way to vote me (enhancing the goal of trying to get me limmed) while still insisting I’m town.

How often, ask yourself, have you seen town intentionally vote two players they think are town, vote themselves, and refuse to scumhunt at all when the game is building toward a probably winning but not quite clear elo? Now, ask yourself how often you’ve seen scum do that? I rest my case

[Menalque]

VOTE: mena

Enchant, do your thing

Catch ups can be finished during night

[Menalque]

Pooky could have easily done that by reading at any point in the last 3 days lol

[Menalque]

I was town

Good luck tomo

[Menalque]

Just try to do better next time

[Menalque]

Last thing is to address once more why pooky is scum

Namely, the problem is not that he didn’t try to kill baltar on D2 and didn’t blow him up on N1, it’s that his read on Baltar TOTALLY DISAPPEARED despite having a very solid foundation

In fact, not only did it disappear, but he started townreading baltar for being selected as defuser twice and argued that he shouldn’t be limmed because of it... while st the same time arguing that baltar was best sorted by being blown up instead of limmed! He kept this up until baltar was in a position where he was going down, at which point he switched to bussing him, despite the fact that the alternative was someone he was previously UTTERLY CONVINCED was scum, to the point that he said that even if baltar was scum, dwlee still shouldn’t be allowed to defuse later on — yet baltar had to be limmed first despite pooky’s standing townread on him that came out of nowhere

Pooky has clearly had plenty of time to be in thread the last couple of days. Look at how he’s used it. Instead of spending any time looking for scum — and nobody is asking him to case, I agree that’s shitty to do on mobile — but he’s not even trying! — he’s decided to get into a multipage argument with someone he thinks is town. He’s done his absolute best to have that engagement in a heated and unpleasant way, probably to make people not want to be in or engage with the thread. We all know pooky is capable of being very nice when he engages. His unpleasantness here is strategic.

He’s continued to endlessly belabour the same couple of points, even when it’s been explained why I’m not willing to talk about them right there (see: why I wasn’t prepared to tell him the main points of my argument against him and how it’s different from the defence he’s been trying to give). This is not a town mindset or group of behaviours. This is scum desperately trying to survive and to mess up the thread. I think it’s very damning that he needs me limmed to stand a chance (I was definitely in the group of planned mislims that scum were counting on to get to elo) and has managed to contrive a way to vote me (enhancing the goal of trying to get me limmed) while still insisting I’m town.

How often, ask yourself, have you seen town intentionally vote two players they think are town, vote themselves, and refuse to scumhunt at all when the game is building toward a probably winning but not quite clear elo? Now, ask yourself how often you’ve seen scum do that? I rest my case

For pagetop d8

[Menalque]

who would NK GL on N1, they said

why would you pick such a preposterous target, they said