Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

[Gimli]

you'd make a daystart message as scum just to let small hints that you thought we were going to 3p but we were actually not cause you know what happens in the night and you use your message to play around it

there that's how unlimited scope scum has

[Gimli]

3p is 3 players not third party

[Gimli]

we're talking in circles now

[Gimli]

you still defend yourself from a position of WIFOM of 'me scum wouldn't do that' immediately after doing it

[Gimli]

you'd do whatever fits your very creative brain thank you

[Gimli]

this game has been great but its time to decide and move on

[Gimli]

now you can't cause fire is cleared

[Gimli]

I take offense on how easy you think it is to 1v1 me, even if we'd go up against fire

[Gimli]

you probably don't, but alas

[Gimli]

nah you're too slippery

everyone can paint a picture of whatever would be better than their position if they were scum, that doesn't mean anything. if you're scum you chose this path, I'll give you one reason for it: it'd be very fucking awkward to try no elimming here again

[Gimli]

and also notice fireisred: when I asked klick if he would argue for no elim again, he didn't say no, he avoided answering directly, so I think he was still having that idea floating around

[Gimli]

let me put this in a way you understand: if I'm scum then it makes so much more sense for me to push for no elim again and then kill fireisred and then take you to f3 with furtive. which is what you're using to defend yourself from accusations of being scum, that you'd push no elim and kill furtive. do you see how your defense is hot air?

[Gimli]

if furtive is scum then he has no reason not to push for no elim again and then kill fireisred and then win with me

oh jee it works with everybody

[Gimli]

it shouldn't work with anyone man, I'm telling you how your argument is a glove that fits in everyone's hands

[Gimli]

[Gimli]

I either already responded in many different manners or I have no idea what you're talking about

[Gimli]

YES. Because if I'm scum, furtive is town, and he's been consistently stating a scumread on me, and I know how he plays and am aware that he won't realistically change his mind against the evidence of this argument.

I think it's interesting how much you're painting furtive as some kind of death tunneler who never changes his mind. the only times I saw furtive having a strong neverchanging opinion on someone, it was twice against me and I was scum and he was right both times. maybe your experience with him differs though so, okay.

speaking of which, if I'm scum I'd never keep furtive alive cause he knows me better than the rest of the playerlist, caught me real hard twice already and I'd be scared of playing it out with him around. if I'm scum I just take aristeia with me to d8. hell if I'm scum I keep peta around and kill furtive in n5. have you considered that these NAs make little sense for me to make as scum?

[Gimli]

btw what are the rules for this? if it goes like 2-1-1, or 2-2, does it actually no lim and we have to play day 10?

[Gimli]

If you believe this then you should also believe that I never let furtive get this far if I'm scum either.

No, I think you do since your opinion of furtive is that he is unreasonable when he is town

[Gimli]

Lock clear + discredit. You can't even sus him cause you'll need to kill him tonight

[Gimli]

I do like your theory on how I'm scum playing a very good game. well the main difference between all my scumgames on other completed games and other games I'm playing is that in every completed game where I was scum, I had to replace in. There was white flag, there was buisness company, there was also a game I replaced in for the worst and everybody was catching me, and there was a newbie I replaced in... in all of those games I had furtive breaking me and making me look horrible ITT. I said it was two but he was also in that game with the pairs and the gladiates strong scumreading me.

that's not to say I play as scum to set my partners up. I play as scum to set my partners up when the conditions make that the only possible play. in every game I replaced in and was scum, I felt my slot was near condenmed. granted, I had a lot of space to play in white flag, but I was travelling and having lots of real life drama that made lying constantly for days an impossibility.

so, yes, when people try to metadive me and see me having a weak scumgame, it's because I keep replacing in and finding furtive and other people death tunneling my fucking slot and I don't think I can get out of those situations yet. I think I'm a good wolf and I'm proud of both my wolf game and my town game, and appreciate the thought that nothing I've done here is exactly outside of my range, except for hypersolving and acting excited about it, which is how fireisred is clearing me and not something I'd bother replicating unfortunately. also, IDK how I'd play giving people a gun as a wolf but it wouldn't be what I did certainly.

and of course, I wouldn't make the kills the wolf did. if I'm scum I had aristeia deep pocketed in a spot where every other living player has caught me as scum before, except for klick who of course isn't who I'd kill as a wolf for other reasons.

[Gimli]

If you believe this then you should also believe that I never let furtive get this far if I'm scum either.

No, I think you do since your opinion of furtive is that he is unreasonable when he is town

Why is this more significant than the massive flag furtive has been waving all game saying 'Klick is scum'?

Peta and Ari (I think) also had you as a wolf; the difference being you can't wave them off and discredit them

[Gimli]

like for MT to be scum she has to be a traitor. that's quite limiting, it makes scumhunting her wonky cause the entirety of her d1-d2 whatever play is not likely to be denouncing informed or anything like that.

Klick IMO only makes sense as a traitor. I copy pasted his d1 readslist here a page ago. he simply puts his hood in a scumpile of three people (with petapan). I'm not gonna tell you I KNOW klick, but I played as a scumbuddy with klick and I think he'd play all scum hood different than bussing both partners. I'm pretty sure klick would go like 'oh theyre towny in the hood' and then pretend like he was pocketed or whatever. not this.

then ari and furt only make sense as traitor, you know that already. and fireisR, if you're town, didn't make the kill, so eitehr traitor or just town.

then there's me. I know I'm town but if I'm scum, the way I played my role doesn't make any sense either if I'm starting in groupscum. of course I can be a traitor as well just like everybody else.

you're our last bet at groupscum

the thing is Klick has always been treating the hood as a there is 1 scum in here kind of hood. Which is not even an implausible play if you have a 3 scum hood?

I think Klick's iso is scummier than Tweet's iso tbh

Yup Ari's last posts about klick are thinking it's klick, until we got to just talking mechanically on D7 where she didn't give a read

So klick what difference does it make for you to keep Ari here instead of furtive? In fact, if that micro you posted is evidence of anything, is that Ari can get really tunnely against you for NAI reasons and I find it extremely unlikely that you'd convince her not to eliminate you last gameday

Let me ask you this: why do I kill Ari instead of furtive? Why would you kill furtive instead of Ari? Furtive caught me no less than everytime we played svt, why would I be the one killing aristeia?

[Gimli]

I was going too easy on you, letting you play this dumdum narrative of "I'd just kill furtive" when all the remaining 7ish dead townies wanted to kill you too

[Gimli]

I'd just kill fireisred even

[Gimli]

I have some questions to your questions:

1) does furtive have a tendency to tunnel you when you're both townies?
2) does ari have a tendency to tunnel you when you're both townies outside of that micro?

I ask 2) especially because I'm sure that game has ended much later than the petapan kill; so, if you're saying you'd kill ari over peta cause she naturally scumreads you, then unless you have other games with her where she did that, that's messing up with the actual timeline of when 'ari naturally scumreads klick' is a thing that could affect your n2 or n5 kill.

to the csf kill: it's much harder to read into the n2 kill as especifically benefitting one player, when there was a living jailkeeper, a tracker, other PRs scum could be afraid of getting into, and there were two scum alive, not one. also, if you're a traitor, you had nothing to do with that kill, which is what my theory is.

if you're town, you should have acknowledged that the things I just said wrt the nightkills make sense from my point of view as town; that the petapan and the aristeia kill were not kills I'm likely to make as mafia; and that should have an impact in your solve. I'm saying that particularly because you're using similar, but much weaker arguments to suggest you wouldn't make x and y kill or play in x or y manner, and suggesting I'm a wolf for not acknowledging it. I'm seeing you not acknowledging the massive circumstancial evidence I just brought here that suggests strongly that I'm town. I think you can't acknowledge it because at this point you have painted yourself into a corner, you can no longer go back to suggesting furtive as scum cause that'd look awful, so you need to wave it off.

[Gimli]

yup petapan died here february 23rd

aristeia started to turn the tunnel on you at least from d2 forward of the micro: that's february 24th.

[Gimli]

I was doing the dishes

don't worry it's not me

[Gimli]

of course we'd benefit greatly from having another clear townie and if it is furtive then we live to figure that out in f3

but I'm not the one who's gonna argue for clearing me where if I'm scum I win the game

[Gimli]

klick ignored everything I asked him, I'll mostly just vote him out in f3 if I'm alive

[Gimli]

yeah I think we got this

[Gimli]

its klick

[Gimli]

I mean I'm sure enough for a game of mafia, if furtive snowed me that's fine

[Gimli]

@fireisred do you think it makes sense for town!klick to agree with leaving furtive with 2 votes to clear me, when he thinks I'm the wolf? if klick is someone who plans ahead and strategizes as town, why wouldn't he be against it? the current votecount makes it so we're gonna have a f3. if I'm the last scum, of course I'm killing you and he can try talking it out. why would he agree with clearing me this gameday, when that loses the game from his perspective as a townie?

[Gimli]

your plan makes sense for you, for me and for furtive. I don't think it makes sense for klick to agree with it though.

[Gimli]

I know what you're thinking: making no sense doesn't make it scum. okay, but does it make sense as town?

[Gimli]

i don't think you understand how klick thinks at all tbh

okay then help me understand this: how is it offering to virtually lose the game if he is right that I'm scum better than taking it to f3? why would he agree with it?

[Gimli]

its really very difficult for me to believe that you don't understand that town klick always dies in 3p here

if nothing he has said to this point has changed the mind of whoever is town between you and furtive then nothing will

I think he is using it to kill me and take you and furtive to f3

[Gimli]

klick won't win a 3p, that's true, but only as long as I'm alive

I don't trust that you vote him over furtive

he agreed with losing the game to scum!me cause that gives him the only out he has at this point which is taking you and furtive to f3

[Gimli]

okay

[Gimli]

i literally just explained how it makes sense are you even reading the game

yeah but your explanation is thin, it's still far superior for town!klick to play f3 against two unclears than to give the win to who he thinks is mafia.

[Gimli]

furtive showed, what, 3 pages ago? that he could be convinced its me

klick is handing me the win when he thinks im mafia? really you believe that?

[Gimli]

I said I wouldn't change my mind on f4, and I won't, initially because I don't wanna have to re-read everything and I don't wanna change my conclusion on a whim, as I decided it was probably klick. however, every real time interaction I had with him this gameday strenghtened that read, so I feel rn that I don't have to re-read. but if I'm taken to f3, I'll go ahead and read it again and figure it out. if I'm wrong and it's furtive I can figure it out.

now klick can stop the tunnel and can stop defending himself with absurdly bad WIFOM at any point, he doesn't have to have me cleared for it.

[Gimli]

well you are a good lawyer

[Gimli]

yup

[Gimli]

klick you haven't answered me if you have previous games with furtive and aristeia where they have tunneled you as townies, in order to properly justify what you were saying in #6390

I see you ignored my questions, then ignored that I said you ignored them, and you are now asking me other unrelated things

[Gimli]

notice how the micro we played cannot be used as a justification to argue you'd kill ari over petapan, since ari didn't start tunneling you in that game at least one day after peta died in this game

[Gimli]

i literally just explained how it makes sense are you even reading the game

yeah but your explanation is thin, it's still far superior for town!klick to play f3 against two unclears than to give the win to who he thinks is mafia.

You are removing this from its context and it reads as incredibly intentional to me
You're providing zero evaluation of everyone's likelihood of winning in a Klick/Gimli/furtive F3 and just going 'lol obviously everyone has a better shot of winning as scum if they're against 2 unclears'

If I'm town, and you're town, and you've basically openly stated that you'd vote me at F3...
And if you're scum and furtive is basically openly stating that he just wants to vote me...

Then Klick's odds of winning, regardless of alignment, are basically nil in a Klick/Gimli/furtive F3.

Agree or disagree?

you don't think I can find you as town if you're town all of a sudden?

[Gimli]

I think the odds of you winning klick/gimli/furtive in f3 are nill if you're scum

if you're town just town it up

[Gimli]

but I don't see you towning it up I see you bullshitting me

[Gimli]

I'm sorry

[Gimli]

Right, it did, but for most of the time it was on Klick

Fire, if you vote me here, Klick will join. He said as much. And that makes zero sense if he thinks it's Gimli like he said he did! It's very clearly desperation. I know it's hard to see when you're the one getting pocketed but you are.

Weirdly, I'd rather bet on the less likely player being scum than get voted out and definitely lose

you're phrasing it in a way that could be interpreted as you saying its more likely furtive

since i'd be the less likely player being scum in this situation

[Gimli]

you were justifying that you wouldn't kill peta over ari cause ari tunnels you on style in #6390

but she tunneled you after peta died here

and you have no other games with her

so

[Gimli]

it was important when you were using it to justify the order of NKs make no sense if it's you

[Gimli]

I agree it's not important - unless you're using it to townread yourself

[Gimli]

and I also said I'll read and evaluate in f3

today I'm not moving my vote obviously

[Gimli]

and you haven't even began to engage with how it makes sense for me to kill petapan and aristeia and leave a dude that caught me in every game I played as wolf against him

if I'm your solve you have to be able to make sense of that

[Gimli]

Right, it did, but for most of the time it was on Klick

Fire, if you vote me here, Klick will join. He said as much. And that makes zero sense if he thinks it's Gimli like he said he did! It's very clearly desperation. I know it's hard to see when you're the one getting pocketed but you are.

Weirdly, I'd rather bet on the less likely player being scum than get voted out and definitely lose

you're phrasing it in a way that could be interpreted as you saying its more likely furtive

since i'd be the less likely player being scum in this situation

No I clearly think you're more likely to be scum

so you phrased it wrong?

its just that then you looked more reasonable when you phrased it wrong, when you're actually saying 'I'm betting on the most likely player to be scum', which feels rather odd

[Gimli]

argh I feel awful

[Gimli]

fire can you please end this game

[Gimli]

not loving myself pushing klick like this

afraid of being wrong and him flipping town and all sorts of regrets

[Gimli]

but like I don't see it I just bashed putting furtive in e1 as an idea that'd win me the game as scum and he won't acknowledge that but I have to acknowledge all his explanations for why he is town even when they all either not work or work with everybody left alive in this game

[Gimli]

I'm trying to talk it through but my points are never acknowledged, i have to ask the same thing 3 times and i answered everything klick asked me over and over, and then I'm stonewalling??? okay

[Gimli]

oh and wasting his time too

[Gimli]

the non consecutive kill has NOTHING to do with my role

my ability is creating and giving a gun. if I was scum who could give the gun to myself I'd use it myself. unless I can gift myself the gun the same night I make the gun as soon as all the mafia are dead but look at how stretchy this has to be

you can call me a traitor and you say I'm a non consecutive killer traitor role thing but not that it has anything to do with my nail

I'm the merchant. the merchant in the game improves the hero's nail twice. I produce and send a nail, twice. that's it that's my role.

of course, don't wanna waste your time, but just to make sure this point doesn't get erased.

[Gimli]

klick believes furtive is less likely to be scum than you

klick is saying that he'd rather take the bet that the less likely player (furtive) is scum than just lose the game

it was phrased correctly

how does clearing me not lose the game for klick, unless the plan is to NK me?

[Gimli]

well yeah if I die

don't you think?

[Gimli]

re: non consecutive. you're both taking for granted the possibility that the scum holstered last night to keep paranoia over 3p and for antispew. I don't think it's a given that it's nonconsecutive killing ability, although I agree the evidence circumstancially points to that

[Gimli]

well yeah if I die

don't you think?

i think it might be better not talk too much now about what i would think based on who gets nightkilled

right

[Gimli]

VOTE: furtive

[Gimli]

holy fucking shit I won

[Gimli]

reading dead thread like

[Gimli]

dead thread is an amazing read <3

I wanna thank datisi for modding, everything from the setup to flavour to being around constantly and answering my questions

also wanna thank my team mates, I really missed having someone to talk to about this game lol

no redactions from me on scum PT

[Gimli]

btw klick's plan on d9 was good of course and I was arguing it made him mafia cause it was convenient.

but also I highly anticipated what klick was thinking:

day 9 I'll hardcase klick, I'll take him to the gates of hell

if they're gonna win they're gonna have to fight hard for it

to me its clear that klick knows its me. he doesn't want to cause I pocketed him, but surely he'll figure it out

I have no reason to be treating him as an ally anymore

so the message backfired in a way cause I could just tell I was klick's solve, and I could anticipate his scumread and push him first.

[Gimli]

there was no odd night anything, that was just me holstering for a variety of reasons

[Gimli]

I killed aristeia over furtive cause I was really paranoid of aristeia, legitimately scared the shit out of me with her d1/d2 play and perfect night actions

she also caught me and sircakez on d1, amazing perception there, I'll quote in a second

[Gimli]

scum gimli trying to rescue scum cakes from his wagon of townies and cakes slapping him away would be the best timeline pls datisi make it happen

[Gimli]

Gg Gimli <3 you played amazingly.

I'll at least take pride in arriving at the solve

NGL pushing you d9 was physically painful for me

You did great as usual <3

[Gimli]

you were very enjoyable to play with as well Black

seconded!

this playerlist was so much fun, and I think it's probably rare that a game takes this long to end without some hard flankers or some drama. this one had none of it, it was very enjoyable throughout.

also thanks @ everyone for the props and thanks datisi on the scummy nomination, made me really happy to read it

[Gimli]

really well played gimli! and gj finding him klick

i think i dislike 4p elo more than 3p elo, it sucks

that's also part of the reason why I didn't kill n8

I would also holster again tonight if we went no elim

[Gimli]

of course, maintaining the oddnight paranoia was good depending on what kind of things I wanted to push for; but the main idea behind not killing on n8 was simple antispew

also I thought I just Wanted It More and could maintain stamina, so the longer the gamedays dragged, as long as we were interacting, the better I could position myself. I had no rush to win it... and wouldn't give up my situation in a 4p to potentially lose a 1v1 versus klick in a 3p. was ready to play d10 with the 4 of us and highly implicating klick again because it also makes sense for klick to go no kill again on n9.

[Gimli]

I didn't think it was completely unwinnable but I wasn't sure if playing out a <2% equity was healthy. I wouldn't mind playing it out unless dats and tsq thought it'd be toxic if I tried though, I was having a lot of fun in this game regardless of how bad our position was

[Gimli]

Well no because now I have to write Gimli a poem.

lol you do, you promised

btw I hope at least one bored soul gets to read through our PT, I think it's an interesting read!

pedit: lmao. perfect <3 okay this will be my signature now

[Gimli]

damn this postgame