Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia II {Game Over!}

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

/confirm

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Send: SlySly

- Scum once, scum always.

Send: DGB

- Do I have to have a reason?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Random sending, unlike in other Mafia games, is utterly and completely pointless in this one. So, I'm ending the random sending phase.

Point taken. However, I don't remember voting on you being the cruise director, so maybe you should not impose your will on the rest of us just yet. And then there's this point...

First of all if you haven't read PD1, I would suggest reading the game, and at the very least, read the roles. The Mafia in particular had some interesting roles, so I would suggest giving it a look.

Secondly, we need to decide what the overall goal when we send people to prison are. There are four possibilities that have been pointed out before that we have to choose from:

1. Send two random people to prison

2. Send two scummy players to prison

3. Send two townish people to prison.

4. Send a town and a scum into prison

I'll have a list comprising all the pros and cons when we have more time. But, really, I think choosing one of these right now is probably a lot more important than fishing for reactions(which is all the random voting stage is). The town needs a course of action

so that when we figure who exactly is scummy

, we can decide the best course of action.

how do you intend on figuring out who's scummy and who's not if you circumvent the normal intro mechanics? What's wrong with the Random Voting Phase to determine who's scummy and who's not? I agree a plan entailing who to send to prison is fine and correct, but we also have to get reactions from people so that we know, when we figure out if we're sending town or scum,

who is town and who is scum

. We can't do one without the other. Especially since Day 1 has a fixed deadline. We have to do both at the same time.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I am a

miller

.

Are you the Death Miller?

Why does this sound like you know there's a Death Miller?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

however you said, "are you

the

Death miller?" that assumes you know there is a death miller.

This.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ignore the above post. I posted before reading page 3. I still don't like the mistake, considering that post 55 makes it look like Sly never played in PDM I. You seem to be acting too noobish, like you're purposefully trying to look like you don't know what you're doing or what the possible game mechanics could be.

I don't want to go the send two townie-looking players to prison route.

Why? What is your suggestion then ABR?

I think that sending two "scum" is out of the question because, even though they almost have to follow the town's will as far as picking what abilities and who to use them on, there is always the possibility for them to try to manipulate things behind the scenes. It's too easy for a WIFOM argument to be set up so that they can look blameless for a dayvig kill, for instance. Just blame it on the "town majority" wanted the kill, thereby washing their hands of the whole thing.

I think we have to either send the two most townie people, or send 1 "townie" and 1 "scum". I'm not sure what the ramifications of sending one of each will be though. The two townie scenario seems like the best way to go because (making the assumption that the two people we pick as most townie are actually town) the two townie players would want to help their side out as much as possible, and therefore we don't have to worry about them trying to work the system to their advantage because of a hidden scum-driven agenda.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

1) I don't know what a death miller is. My PM does not lead me to believe I'm anything other than a regular old fashioned miller

Does your PM specifically state that you are Pro-Town?

Isn't that inferred from the term "Miller"?

From the wiki (Miller):

A Miller (sometimes called an Outsider) is typified as a

member of the town

with an air of corruption and/or suspicion surrounding him. Thus a Miller

acts like a normal Townie

in every way except for one important feature: whenever a Cop investigates a Miller, the Moderator returns a guilty result, even though

the Miller is pro-Town

.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Solo, you are right. I misread the options on yes/no.

I want to make one thing clear. I think that gaining information in the first (few?) days would be infinitely more relevant

than stockpiling a load of daykills that potentially have no use.

Especially this early in the game. Speaking strictly on a percentage basis combined with my own feelings as to the possible setup. There is about a 15% chance that a mafia scum is even hit from all this going on. Obviously the numbers are rough as i do not know how many anti-town players are in this game.

Lets assume the best case scenario, 6 people all town go into prison and they all say no. Then what? run around with 6 daykills that you cannot reliably use?

Noe lets assume the worst. Say a bunch of mafia are sent into prison. Not only do they get their night kill(s?) (also assuming that some are still out of prison by reading the first games rules) The ones that end up voting yes get a free kill. After that they will most likely take doc protection and save themselves from a daykill. Now the town is down potentially 4 or 5 people on the worst case scenario.

Either way I dont see any information being gained from it.

Is that the way it works? From reading the first post with the chart in it, it reads to me that the powers granted are only good for the next day.

Mod: Clarification please. If someone gets a power from being in jail, do they keep it until they use it, or until the next night cycle and then it's lost?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Unsend: DGB

Vote: modified version of 3

I agree with ABR that sending too many is bad on the first day, since we may be helping out the scum. But I don't agree it should be only 2 scummy-looking ones. There's no way to control people in this game - it's been said and I believe it's the correct statement.

So the problem with ABRs plan is that by only sending 2 scummy people we've got no way of getting rid of them if they don't do as instructed. I think plan 3 is better, because then we've got the scummy ones that we tell to vote yes/100%, and we can get townies that we can get investigations/viggings from to keep the two scummy ones from not listening to us.

The modification is this: only send 4 people - 2 scummy and 2 townie. That way we're not sending too many people, but it still gives us a system of checks and balances.

I don't know about this; I still think Sly's behavior, ie the "Oh yes I'm a miller too. Indeed. Yes. Indeed." is a little sketch, but I'm willing to belay the feeling that I'm getting in my gut (probably my liver, but it might also be appendicitis) and

Send: Lowell

Send: SlySly

I agree with this sentiment. I don't like the fact that he started in with the Death Miller line of questioning, and then suddenly switched over asking if the PM said Lowell was Pro-Town or not. This seems way too safe to me. If anything, I think Lowell claiming out of the gate is more pro-town than Sly fishing for information and then "settling" on a claim.

I don't know about this; I still think Sly's behavior, ie the "Oh yes I'm a miller too. Indeed. Yes. Indeed." is a little sketch, but I'm willing to belay the feeling that I'm getting in my gut (probably my liver, but it might also be appendicitis) and

Send: Lowell

Send: SlySly

I believe sly's claim as I think multiple millers fits with a game like this, in which we'll have tons of investigative roles going around. If there weren't something to balance it out (multiple false-guilties and false innocents) the roles would be too powerful.

If sly hadn't beat around the bush like he did I'd be more inclined to believe it. But he went fishing for information first, and that doesn't sit well with me. People have stated that they like sly's claim because he was trying to verify your status before claiming (ie: zach, post 100/103).

I'm looking at it from the opposite side of the mirror I guess. It seemed more to me that he was trying to find the safest position from which to claim first, whereas your claim was just put out there with no provocation. I can understand the other points of view, but my gut doesn't like it.

On reread it really does look like a guy contemplating a counterclaim and not sure how to proceed. It all looks legit to me.

But WHY does a Miller need to worry about a counter-claim? What's there to counter-claim?

"You're not a Miller! I'm a Miller!"

Really? Is that what you were expecting when you made your first post?

Lowell: Dayvig
SlySly: Day Cop

Why would you give people you trust less the ability to kill?

Because giving the more suspicious the daycop investigations means more risk of scum lies getting through (and some lies won't be too easily found either - and the last thing we need is scum falsly confirming a buddy innocent). Vig kills are more open, don't risk misinformation, and it's lots clearer whether the player did what the town instructed.

/agree.

Lowell: DayCop
SlySly: DayVig

I was kind of thinking that. I think the possibility for error is too high and the rewards granted are too powerful. We can't be positive with anybody but the millers.

I'm gonna go right ahead and

Request: End Day

We have 30-something days left. I think we should at least try to get one more pair sent.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

OOC: My weekends are very busy guys, and I don't get to post other than to update the games I'm Modding. I will make an effort to stay active during the week, but Sat/Sun is almost a no-post day.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think the alignment reveal for freeko points towards ortolan and narsis being town. I need to read the last 3 pages again, and I'm not going to get to it until tonight.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

DG, was this one-shot?

I'd like to keep the scum guessing.

I don't like this question.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think, especially on day 1, we should send the 6 most townie people into Prison...

????????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????

Verily, friends.

VERILY.

I'd like to know what the excessive question marks are about.

Uh, the fact that apparently AA really didn't read the game at all, considering he's up for the plan that most of us think is crap.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

On preview: Um, VRK, don't many/most of the people voting on plans actually like Plan 2? Wherefore 'that most of us think is crap'? Did I just miss something?

I thought most of us were up for the mixed town and scum prison send. Apparently I need to read more than just the last 3 pages again if I've got this wrong.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry about the inactivity, I'm a slacker

I do not agree with Narsis being scum because of his pointing out that freeko was acting in a pro-town manner, and then freeko turning up as pro-town. I agree with Moratorium as anti-town for reasons stated.

If we are going with sending scum, I would vote for Moratorium and Empking. For town sends I would go with DGB and Plum. If we ever figure out whether we're sending more pro-town people or sending anti-town people I'll vote accordingly.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Unvote: DGB

Send: Narsis

Percy as I said - Gut.
I considered two to have wong because it was ages since people had voted.

I'm pretty sure DGB is scum. Only her claim has stopped me from unsending her and is it really that pro-town a claim?

I don't see it.

Would you expect scum to get that kind of power? If DGB is scum, then there are two scum teams because she'd never send her own partner, not at this point of the game.

There is nothing to suggest to us that the scum don't get night kills. So unless you think that her ability is a replacement for the traditional scum nightkill, I don't see how you think she's scum. I'm pretty sure that there's no way the scum get a traditional night kill + an ability like DGB demonstrated. It's too powerful IMO.

So unless you've got prior knowledge of how the scum night kills work, and therefore you know DGB is scum based on her ability, then this is just bullshit. All you're doing here is putting the pieces in place to lead a "lynch" on DGB tomorrow.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I have a fresh new meta on Empking and actually, I'd say that HE's scum. That's his scum self. Rabidly going after townies.

Example please, or it never happened And it's all well and good for you to say he's going after a townie (I'm guessing you mean yourself?) but we don't have any way to verify that yet, although with the claim I'm more inclined to believe you are Town than not (unlike some people )

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Send: RossWilliam

Sorry I've been quiet. I'm trying to get my dissertation finished and I've been ignoring the game for this week.

My other scum Send vote would go to Empking, but he's already going so I'm not going to vote again until we start working on the Town/Town pair next.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

send DGB

lets see how this turns out.

What??? What do you mean? Are you hoping it ends up with Empking and DrippingGoofball in the Prisoner's Dilemma together?

DGB will vig whoever she feels like. She should not get the vig.

No she won't. If she does, she gets vigged. It's simple.

People seem to ber fine with her vigging who she feels like. She won't be vigged.

I disagree. I, as well as others, are not okay with her vigging whoever she wants. Even if that person is you. It should be discussed and agreed upon by the town before any actions are taken*. And I think that DrippingGoofball is on board with that.

*Unless we get a No/No from the scum/scum pair, in which case the vigs should vig one of the scum pair immediately.

I had a thought about this while I was rereading for my previous Send post. I think it would be in our best interest to set targets today for the Townies that are going to jail and getting the Vig targets.

If we do send Emp/Ross and they are both scum, I could see them both saying No and then both taking vig powers which they'd immediately use once the thread opens, thereby taking out two of our Vigging Townies.

Do we want to specify to our Vigging Townies that, should this behavior show up, their very next post should be to Vig either one of Emp or Ross - whichever one of them posted the Vigging? That would give the Vigging Townie the ability to act without waiting on us, because we'd have talked about it already. Then we don't have to worry about the two scum taking out our killing ability and leaving us back at square one.

Of course if this doesn't happen then they should wait for the rest of the town to use their power on who we all mutually agree upon.

Thoughts?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm ok with zach's 655 quote for distribution of power. The Vigs should remember that they should try to be on as early as possible to ensure that Ross and Carn both say 100%/yes, and should immediately send in a kill if they come through the night safely. Otherwise they should wait for cop results; failing that we use the viggings as regular lynches.

Send: Plum
Send: DGB

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

3 more sends for each one and the day is over. If anyone has anything they want to say it better be quick.