Lynch All Lurkers Mafia! GAME OVER

[Xylthixlm]

It's 6 pm. I'm typing from my iphone as I take the shuttle to the bus.

Dgb, there was hardly fire under your feet. Two people were voting for you, two people who you think are both scum. The only way you'd be in danger from that is ifcwe were right.

[Xylthixlm]

Before "you're awesome scum who could lynch anyone with just chewing gum and a toothpick": no I'm not. If you were afraid of a two person wagon it's because you thought it was right.

Before someone points out mind screw 3, the scum engineered almost no mislynches that game. We won through role powers and self-voting townies. (the towies did have reason in that game)

[Xylthixlm]

I've had it with arguig with dgb. Much her or don't. I'll be there to say I told you so after the lynch.

Meanwhile, I should put together some thoughts for you all to read after I die overnight.

[Xylthixlm]

Before "you're awesome scum who could lynch anyone with just chewing gum and a toothpick": no I'm not. If you were afraid of a two person wagon it's because you thought it was right.

Who's afraid of a two person wagon? Me? I'm begging people to vote me so that I can self-hammer. You are afraid of a wagon on yourself, that one one has even suggested, except me. I'm dying today, everything I wrote will be completely forgotten tomorrow (I've played enough games to know this). Why are YOU worried? Is it because you think a wagon on you would be right?

Before someone points out mind screw 3, the scum engineered almost no mislynches that game. We won through role powers and self-voting townies. (the towies did have reason in that game)

I believe that I have my own reasons,

valid reasons

, in this game. Some are strategic (ie, in light of a complete lack of actual scumhunting, or players paying attention to actual scumhunting efforts, I'd rather die as vanilla than the claimed power role).

BTW I have never, ever self-hammered while holding a power role.

By "valid reasons" I meant a townie-jester and a powerful info role that triggered on lynch.

[Xylthixlm]

new theory: DGB is scum, tajo is town, Xyl is scum (assuming DGB actually does flip scum).

You're forgetting that I don't bus. And if I did bus it wouldn't be dgb, I like her a lot better than the average scumbuddy.

[Xylthixlm]

I am never playing with xtoxm or dgb ever again. I mean it. I've banned people from #mafia for stunts like that.

[Xylthixlm]

I want to lynch Tajo just to spite dgb, but I think I'll control myself.

[Xylthixlm]

FoS image

[Xylthixlm]

Got no result again. If anyone cares, I tracked Xyl.

Does no result = no target?

[Xylthixlm]

Not that I object to lynching image, but are we rushing tobeat a lurker again? Because I don't think that's been working so well. Slow down a bit.

[Xylthixlm]

Not that I object to lynching image, but are we rushing tobeat a lurker again? Because I don't think that's been working so well. Slow down a bit.

Kay.

Unvote Vote : Xyl.

You knew your meta theory about DGB was bogus when she proved that she had acted like that as town also, yet you keep pushing for her death.

Die scum die.

Actually I switched to shocked disbelief when she posted the game link. But nice try.

Ps I lynch people for antitown play even if they prove they play that way as town. I also lynch anyone who asks to be lynched. So I probably would have kept pushing her lynch, I was just shocked that someone as experienced as DGB would take her ball and go home for any reason, let alone such a crappy one. g

[Xylthixlm]

Damn, I swear I've made this self-vote argument before but I don't remember where. Feel free to skip this if you want to just keep playing mafia.

Getting yourself lynched as town cannot possibly help the town more than staying alive and trying to contribute would. The latter is better because...
(a) If the town thinks you're scummy, you get lynched anyways, but you contributed more and more importantly you made the scum work harder to get you lynched, which gives the town extra information.
(b) If the town doesn't think you're scummy, you're much better off staying alive. Dying not only deprives the town of one protown voice, it also takes the scum one step closer to their win condition. Getting yourself lynched when you wouldn't have been otherwise is an "own goal".
(c) Even if you think you're going to be lynched, you can't be certain until the actual lynch, so you should keep playing to give the town a chance to come to its senses and decide not to lynch you.

Given the above, there are only three reasons someone could want to actually self-hammer*:
(a) They are scum trying to cut off discussion or support a bus.
(b) They are a n00b who doesn't know any better.
(c) They are a self-centered jerk who thinks that if the game isn't going the way

they

want, they should just take their ball and go home.

I was working on the assumption that DGB was not a n00b or a self-centered jerk, and therefore she must be scum. I'm quite surprised that she turned out not to be scum, which means that she must be one of the other two. I'm currently on the self-centered jerk hypothesis, although I might be persuaded to n00b if she publically apologizes and promises never to do it again.

In the meanwhile, I'm not playing another game with anyone who is willing to screw over their teammates in a hissy fit.

That is the

last

word I will give on this subject until the game is over.

* I am avoiding the question of whether it is OK for a townie to

pretend

to want to be lynched by restricting this to actually self-hammering. Arguments like "it might persuade the town to your viewpoint without actually getting you lynched" do not apply in the case of a self-hammer.

[Xylthixlm]

xyl why aren't you voting?

Still too annoyed over DGB to do rational analysis of the game, mostly.

[Xylthixlm]

xyl why aren't you voting?

Still too annoyed over DGB to do rational analysis of the game, mostly.

thats the biggest cop out i've ever heard

I don't care because it's true

[Xylthixlm]

roflcopter: go bug someone who cares

[Xylthixlm]

also try to remember all the way back to WIH2 where you made the same argument that town-Xyl would never back off, and were wrong there too

[Xylthixlm]

Current scumteam shotgun: image, Antihero, ortolan.

Since DGB came up town this seems like a good place for me to start. Now if only I could remember why I thought Antihero and ortolan were scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, if Image comes up scum, Ortolan is town.

Why?

[Xylthixlm]

I FoS'd image 22 posts before ortolan "started the wagon"

Not that I'm counting

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl do you usually use FOS?

Not very often, no. image's attack on rofl set my scumdar off.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm in wimp mode right now. It happens right around after I've been heavily pushing three town wagons.

[Xylthixlm]

If I cared about people trying to lynch me I would use a different playstyle. <3

[Xylthixlm]

I think it's a bit farfetched that tajo would get tracker who gets repeatedly blocked in

two

games at once. But stranger things have happened.

[Xylthixlm]

Oops sorry he wasn't ineffective tracker in -XylBot-, that was URoE. Tajo was ineffective doc/vig.

[Xylthixlm]

Justify your votes, please. Because this really looks like wagon hopping for the sake of wagon hopping, from my point of view. Also, if anyone would respond to my case on rofl, it would be appreciated.

Your case on rofl was scummy.

[Xylthixlm]

My gut says you started with the conclusion and just picked out anything you could find of roflcopter's that looked slightly scummy. If that's all you could find, all it proves is that roflcopter isn't lurking.

[Xylthixlm]

MafiaSSK

- Th

i

s is our lynch. Noncommittal, unconfirmed, and unwilling to use

h

is m

a

son partner to contribute to the game

v

ia QT. Daytalking is

hands down

on

e

of the most powerful abilities availa

b

l

e

in Mafia. Not using this ability to his advantage (or at least maneuver around his PR

or indicate that he

couldn't

use the QT to dodge the PR

) t

e

lls me that he does

n

ot share a win condition with his partner Steph, whose genuine mistakes indicate that he's town.

ihavebecouldn'ten
i have been + couldn't?

elvis forgot about the masons. this is important... if mafiassk is a scum mason then elvis is town.

feels like something wants to connect but I don't have it yet...

[Xylthixlm]

elvis forgot about the masons. this is important... if mafiassk is a scum mason then elvis is town.

I like your thinking. But would regular scum and a scum mason definitely know the identities of one another?

You can usually assume that the scum at least told each other their roles.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm not sure what that wouldn't be "commonly known." It's a statistical intuition. If I reach into a bag containing ten red marbles and one green, I'm far more likely to pull out a red marble. Pushing policy lynches on a behavior that isn't 100% inherently scummy increases the chance that town players will be in the policy lynch pool, increasing the number of accessible, easy mislynches.

BS. FoS Nuwen

[Xylthixlm]

Nuwen: I'll let you see if you can find the problem with equating "behavior that isn't 100% inherently scummy" with a towntell.

[Xylthixlm]

vote image

[Xylthixlm]

@Elvis: Numen's analogy was bad, but her original point is still good. If you lynch everyone who lurks for 48 hours instead of 72 hours, you lynch everyone who lurks for 72 hours, yes; but you also lynch those who post after an interval between 48 and 72 hours. There is a scummy motivation for lurking 72 hours, but none more than usual for lurking more than 48 hours. Thus those people who lurk for 48 to just less than 72 hours are about as likely to be scum as people who lurk for the same amount of time in normal games. Would you advocate strictly policy lynching anyone who does not post for 48 hours in a normal game?

Yes if I thought there was a chance of getting the town to go along

[Xylthixlm]

I think Nuwen makes bad analogies but I dont think she is scum. I get an overal protwon feeling and some good logic coming from her contribution.

People who replace in with a burst of analysis tend to have that effect. It's not much of a tell.

[Xylthixlm]

Holy 70 pages Batman. I'll try to catch up asap.

Read the last 10 pages first and give your impression

[Xylthixlm]

Nuwen: If scum are more likely to get to 72 hours, and they have to go through 48 hours before they get to 72 hours, wouldn't that make scum more likely to get to 48 hours? Or are you imagining some bizarre countereffect where townies lurk extra much until they reach 48 hours but stop before 72?

[Xylthixlm]

EBWOp EBWOp

@

MafiaSSK

: You're ent

i

rely unable to

c

h

an

nel your reads/opinions on players via your QT? Can we provide

y

ou with an a-z sp

e

ctrum time

s

a hundred to get a post containing real content? Troll tried this and it wasn't taken advantage of.

I understand your PR to limit 1) How you respond to questions directed at you (white text additions to pre-written script) and 2) Imperative to respond to all questions.

Narrowing down the specifications of post restrictions is the best way to test them. MafiaSSK has responded posts that neither address him nor contain a mention of his name:



-

This quote is from Nuwen not me.

[Xylthixlm]

Not claiming unless someone is willing to hammer. Also, tajo, please explain your reasoning for that blatant wagon hop.

You're lucky I'm already voting you.

[Xylthixlm]

aaauuuuggggghhhhhhhh

unvote image; vote MafiaSSK

DIE PR FAKING LURKER DIE

[Xylthixlm]

I will be very surprised if MafiaSSK turns out to be town. He's demonstrated repeatedly that he could contribute if he wants to, but has passed up every chance he's had to do so.

[Xylthixlm]

Isn't "Too scummy to be scum" a variation of "Too Townie"?

[Xylthixlm]

in the last three pages this thread has seen so much stupid, i can't wait to get back to a computer and metaphorically rip several people a new one.

nuwen putting so much effort into keeping everyone as unconfirmed as possible is epic mega scummy.

<3 this post

elvis: DIE SSK DIE DIE DIE DIE!

[Xylthixlm]

xyl (and ortolan): do you still think image is scum?

yes

DIE SSK DIE

[Xylthixlm]

13. Kinetic - Tue May 5, 2009 19:46:13
2. Nuwen - Wed May 6, 2009 10:16:49
6. roflcopter - Wed May 6, 2009 16:01:02
8. MafiaSSK - Wed May 6, 2009 15:49:37
10. Mastin - Wed May 6, 2009 00:52:52
5. image - Thu May 7, 2009 10:07:36
9. Empking - Thu May 7, 2009 08:54:31
12. elvis_knits - Thu May 7, 2009 11:58:33
14. Stephoscope - Thu May 7, 2009 11:38:47
15. populartajo - Thu May 7, 2009 10:05:01
17. ortolan - Thu May 7, 2009 01:54:15
4. Xylthixlm - now

[Xylthixlm]

I'm wondering if nuwen is reading the same game I am.

Roflcopter's scumhunting technique is awesome.

[Xylthixlm]

P.s. If you have trouble with confirmation bias on peopleyou think are town try deliberately reexaming them every so often. Hunting towntells is too powerful to not do just because you think it will bias you.

What's your read on elvis if you ignore the rules confusion thing? Still scum? Do you think your later read is influenced by it?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm wondering if nuwen is reading the same game I am.

Roflcopter's scumhunting technique is awesome.

When it works.

And then games like WIHII happen (unconventional voting mechanics weren't an excuse, c'mon).

Actually the increased threat of one person "voting" completely threw off reactions that game. Everyone paniced.

[Xylthixlm]

I will probably vote elvis tomorrow btw (with reasons). Just a heads up in case she gets speedlynched, flips scum and I look less-than-optimal for not having voted her.

It's going to take you a whole day to make up some reasons? You're slow.

I think ortolan is being stupid not scummy there

[Xylthixlm]

This is idiotic.

You know what has happened since we lynched Zwet?

DGB got her panties in a bunch and led a charge on malyss. Then Day 2 we have two self-hammering townies in DGB and Xtoxm.

Now you people are like "Elvis and rofl have led the town to rack and ruin." I fail to see how it's anyone's fault that DGB and Xtoxm decided to give up and suicide rather than be replaced.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Amen
I count xtoxm and dgb as jester lynches

[Xylthixlm]

Granted taking two townies and replacing them with jesters tends to make things worse for the town

Really interested in the elvis case but can we lynch mafiassk first, the case against him is blatant

[Xylthixlm]

From my POV the responsibility for the Xtoxm and DGB lynches lies 100% with Xtoxm and DGB, respectively. They

asked to be lynched

! I don't care if they were frustrated or whatever, that doesn't change the fact that the lynches were

their ideas

and

their fault

. They get absolutely no sympathy from me, and if the town loses this game I will blame it entirely on them.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, so you think there was a case on dgb and in xtoxm?

I think that someone asking to be lynched is always a sufficient reason to do so.

[Xylthixlm]

Here's my reasoning.

If someone asks them to be lynched, there are a few possibilities:
1) They are scum. Lynching them is good for the town.
2) They are town.
- 2a) They have a protown reason for being lynched. Lynching them is good for the town.
- 2b) They don't have a protown reason for being lynched, and so are playing against their own win condition.

Now, you may choose to try to play around the possibility of townies actively working against their own win condition. I don't.

[Xylthixlm]

Asking to be lynched is not a scumtell as dgb and xtomx flips have proven.

Leaving aside the question of whether it's a scumtell, it's definitely poor sportsmanship. I understand that it happens but I'm frankly shocked that you think it should be excused. People need to take responsibility for their actions, whether they were done out of frustration or any other reason. Who knows, maybe they'll learn something and think twice before screwing up another game in a childish fit!

[Xylthixlm]

Why is mafiassk not scumhunting?

[Xylthixlm]

ortolan: you're haring off in a completely wrong direction but I think you're doing it for protown reasons, thus "stupid not scummy".

Try reading my posts with the thought that I honestly believed there would be no way DGB would be so stupid as to pull that crap as town. I now realize this was an overestimation of DGB.

[Xylthixlm]

After some closer analysis of what Nuwen actually said and her probable thought process in saying it, I think I understand what she was thinking. I still think her conclusion is wrong, because she is discounting the possibility that lurking could be (and imo, is) "inherently scummy" even without the 72-hour mechanic; but I see how she reached it.

Now, back to killing MafiaSSK. DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE.

[Xylthixlm]

WHY IS MAFIASSK NOT DEAD YET?

roflcopter, Stephoscope, Nuwen, elvis_knits, image, MafiaSSK, Mastin, Kinetic: Explain why you are not voting MafiaSSK.

[Xylthixlm]

WHY IS MAFIASSK NOT DEAD YET?

roflcopter, Stephoscope, Nuwen, elvis_knits, image, MafiaSSK, Mastin, Kinetic: Explain why you are not voting MafiaSSK.

I believe I am town, sir. I just don't feel like posting a huge ass post detailing why you are scum.

Do it.

[Xylthixlm]

ortolan: I'm not going to discuss DGB and self-voting. If I try, I'm going to get angry again, and then I'll either do something stupid or make myself replace out of the game. Drop the subject.

[Xylthixlm]

WHY IS MAFIASSK NOT DEAD YET?

roflcopter, Stephoscope, Nuwen, elvis_knits, image, MafiaSSK, Mastin, Kinetic: Explain why you are not voting MafiaSSK.

I believe I am town, sir. I just don't feel like posting a huge ass post detailing why you are scum.

Do it.

No. Because it would mostly be filled with posts for you begging everyone to get me lynched as if you would die for another mislynch.

So, what happened to your post restriction?

[Xylthixlm]

entirely independently of her self-voting

, you were absolutely sure at the time you voted for her she was obv-scum, yes?

IIRC I had her at about 50% chance of being scum at the time I voted her.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: have you ever seen an actual PR as convoluted as the one MafiaSSK claims?

[Xylthixlm]

Define "utility lynch".

[Xylthixlm]

I don't think MafiaSSK is a bad lynch (for reasons outlined) and I'm not trying to cross myself off of the list of possible bussers if and when he does flip scum - but I do think that it's important for everyone to realize that a well-supported wagon will either be a violent bus or mislynch, and should vote accordingly. An all-town wagon on any scum player is going to be an uphill battle. This doesn't affect the validity of MafiaSSK's wagon, but it's a good analysis point to be aware of as soon as possible.

On the one hand, I agree with this. On the other hand, I think that making decisions on this basis is generally stupid, since it gives the scum a lever to manipulate you with. On the gripping hand, I feel like the MafiaSSK lynch is not getting nearly the support it should have. The reasons to lynch him should be completely obvious to everyone, so why is the wagon "an uphill battle"?

[Xylthixlm]

Seriously people... there is NO chance that MafiaSSK is telling the truth about his post restriction. None. And he seems to be using his claimed post restriction, which is not only obviously fake but also doesn't seem to actually restrict him in what he says at all, as an excuse not to contribute. I cannot find a protown reason why MafiaSSK would do that, even as a mason. I can see plenty of reason for him to act that way as scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Given how hot Nuwen seems to be over hunting scum by looking at if their actions make sense as town vs if they make sense as scum... I'm seriously shocked that she's not in favor of the MafiaSSK lynch. What gives, Nuwen?

[Xylthixlm]

MafiaSSK: While you're here, if you're town, I want a complete explanation of why you're behaving the way you are. All of it.

[Xylthixlm]

STOP ASSUMING I HAVENT BEEN USING THE QT. I have been. It's been Steth who hasn't. I've posted the last three messages all asking for people to post.

:!::!::!::!::!:

"People"? So your QT has more than just you and Stephoscope.

[Xylthixlm]

My paranoia tells me that MafiaSSK is a cult leader.

[Xylthixlm]

Quick, someone claim daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason.

@Nuwen a me Day 3 lynch would be bad because it has so little info for a Day 3 lynch.

I disagree, especially after I make it clear that MafiaSSK's lynch is not policy related. No one gets to jump on this wagon screaming "LURKER LYNCH" or any neutral/null utility reasoning.

Tell me what you'll find from a me lynch?

We'll learn something about steph at the minimum

[Xylthixlm]

We also get your pretty wagon to analyze. I'm not going to continue speculating where scum votes on MafiaSSK might lie, lest I create a nasty WIFOM situation that'll be useless for real scumhunting later on.

Whenever a wagon forms on a scum, their buddies have a choice between what I think of as "positional advantage" and "material advantage". The other scum can defend or stay off the wagon, thus increasing the chance that their buddy survives (preserving material advantage) in return for looking scummier (losing positional advantage); or they can bus their buddy, making him easier to lynch (losing material advantage) but making themselves look more town (gaining positional advantage). A simple result from elementary game theory says that in situations like that, the town's best play is to make that decision as close as possible for the scum.

A similar effect happens with town wagons, except there the scum choose which sort of advantage to gain, rather than which sort to lose.

[Xylthixlm]

fuck this shit. we are not lynching mafiassk. don't even try it.

unvote, vote: nuwen

Why not? Convince me.

[Xylthixlm]

i will not bother trying to convince you to lynch your scumpartners xyl, i am perfectly aware you refuse to bus

I asked why we're not lynching MafiaSSK.

[Xylthixlm]

we are not lynching mafiassk because being a piss poor player and a piss poor sport does not make him scum, and none of the arguments for why he is scum are anything more than "lol look at how badly he's playing his role"

Wait when was I being a bad sport?

So you don't deny being a piss poor player?

[Xylthixlm]

roflcopter: You're forgetting the part about faking a PR to justify his lurking

[Xylthixlm]

Nuwen: To be honest MafiaSSK's assertion that he would recruit me first rings of truth.

A few people seem to be dominating the conversation unhealthily here, I think I'll try being a follower for a while and see where I'm led.

Right now I think both Nuwen and roflcopter are town.

unvote

[Xylthixlm]

Nuwen: It's more that he's been a regular on #mafia, and I used to have a 100% cult win record there until people caught on that I was always the first person recruited.

[Xylthixlm]

Nuwen: To be honest MafiaSSK's assertion that he would recruit me first rings of truth.

A few people seem to be dominating the conversation unhealthily here, I think I'll try being a follower for a while and see where I'm led.

Right now I think both Nuwen and roflcopter are town.

unvote

vote for image

vote: image

[Xylthixlm]

A few people seem to be dominating the conversation unhealthily here, I think I'll try being a follower for a while and see where I'm led.

^^scummy

See my signature.

[Xylthixlm]

#mafia@irc.globalgamers.net
"Although I might argue that Xyl is scum because he isn't attempting to steer the conversation as much as he generally does... but that just sounds silly" - DrHealex

^ For archival purposes

[Xylthixlm]

It has nothing to do with meta Xyl, I would think that anyone saying they plan to try to be more of a follower is scummy.

Fair enough. So you think following is bad?

[Xylthixlm]

Where did "mindlessly" come from? Nobody said anything about mindlessly following.

[Xylthixlm]

Following more = leading less

[Xylthixlm]

Roflcopter is totally town
Nuwen and elvis are leaning town
Image is scummy
Mafiassk is hella scummy
Kinetic is lurking

[Xylthixlm]

*looks at player list*

Oh yeah, ortolan is scummy too

[Xylthixlm]

*looks at player list*

Oh yeah, ortolan is scummy too

I thought you said he was being stupid, not scummy. What changed?

little gears turning in my head, looking at the forest rather than the trees

[Xylthixlm]

roflcopter: do you think elvis_knits has been actively scumhunting?

[Xylthixlm]

roflcopter: do you think elvis_knits has been actively scumhunting?

yes. and i am 100% convinced she is town. so quit it with the trying to convince me of anything different schtick.

No it's in regards to image's question

[Xylthixlm]

... or whatever it was

3) I'm not flipping the burden of proof onto you [elvis_knits]. I have read through your posts and do not believe you have been actively scum-hunting, although I'd like others to make their own decisions.

[Xylthixlm]

Posted: Fri May 8, 2009 14:53:03 Post subject: 11

unvote, vote Mastin

[Xylthixlm]

Not "claim or die". Just "die".

[Xylthixlm]

If there are two kills, I'm scum.

If there is only one, then I'm not.

Scum can save an extra kill until they can drop it for the win. Pow!

[Xylthixlm]

I would need a remarkably high confidence in your townieness for that to be a better plan than lynching you right now.

[Xylthixlm]

Let's put it this way: your going over the 72 hours line shifts your burden from "preponderance of the evidence" to "guilty until proven innocent".

[Xylthixlm]

Personally, I think you're moderately scummy. Not the scummiest player, but not particularly protown.

Given that, and the fact that you are a major threat to the town if we don't lynch you and you turn out to be scum, I believe you must die.

[Xylthixlm]

tl;dr: against - nothing. for - nothing.

[Xylthixlm]

Mastin: post the big post you wrote up yesterday but didn't send. Right now.

[Xylthixlm]

Yes.

[Xylthixlm]

That's not your post from yesterday. Why are you stalling?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm giving you a chance to prove at least part of your story is true here, and you're flubbing it.

[Xylthixlm]

D-

[Xylthixlm]

I like that he can't remember what was happening when he supposedly wrote this lost post. Nice touch.

[Xylthixlm]

I see Kinetic in the logged-in user list.

[Xylthixlm]

I am totally not surprised.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis is definitely town now

[Xylthixlm]

Suggestion: Mastin needs to die today. Yes. But let's lynch him second. Then we see more interaction from him, and learn more when he flips one way or the other.

Man you timed that badly

[Xylthixlm]

I don't see Nuwen as scum

I don't see me as scum either for that matter

[Xylthixlm]

vote: image

[Xylthixlm]

"Even after our mislynches"? Two scum in five lynches is beating par.

[Xylthixlm]

But I don't know how he went from "no claim or die, just die!" to "let's see if I can help you prove you're town."

You don't see why testing his claim could be a good idea? It's not like I made it an easy test.

[Xylthixlm]

But I don't know how he went from "no claim or die, just die!" to "let's see if I can help you prove you're town."

You don't see why testing his claim could be a good idea? It's not like I made it an easy test.

I see why it could be a good idea from a town POV. But I also see that it could be you trying to help your buddy live a little longer.

Meh, whatever. I was still rooting for him to die (notice the lack of unvote) but it's hard to get someone to cooperate when you're channeling pure hostility at them.

[Xylthixlm]

Contemplate this post by image:

I respectfully disagree with DGB that THIS POST makes BMQ seem very town. He does not provide a solid defense of zwet or pick apart the arguments against him; he just rehashes a bunch of the weaker arguments and meta-based arguments, and says he is unconvinced by it. His long lurk over the weekend and week defense of zwet in other posts makes him seem suspicious to me.

It strikes me that, given the choice between lynching Steph or MafiaSSK to see if we have a scum mason, it is better to lynch Steph. If she flips town, we can take her at her word that MafiaSSK is confirmed and was lying for some odd reason. If we lynch MafiaSSK first, though, and he flips town, that doesn't tell us if Stef is a scum-mason or not. Further, if MafiaSSK is a weird day cult recruiter as Troll fears, we can make him the first lynch tomorrow if Steph flips cult. But this could be just a case of poor wording and confusion as Xyl suggests.

Unfortunately, there has been a lot of noise going on today that I have a hard time making sense of, with rofl being aggro and people getting angry at him. Still not seeing tajo as town, but agreeing that there isn't as strong a case against him as rofl seems to think there is.

Unvote.

I am quite disturbed by the utter lack of meaningful posting coming from Malyss.

Vote: Malyss

The suggestion to lynch steph instead of SSK is uber scummy to me. "Yeah, let's lynch the townier mason, and if he's town (like we think), we can believe him that the scummy mason is also town."

Followed by the hop onto malyss wagon.

Yeah, I'm way ahead of you here.

image pings the scumdar with that post. PING!

[Xylthixlm]

Image, who do you think is town?

[Xylthixlm]

unvote image

[Xylthixlm]

xyl, what exactly just convinced you image was not a good place for your vote?

Gut. His overall pattern of behavior just doesn't make sense as scum. He's done some individual scummy things, but they don't fit with the rest of his play if I assume he's scum.

[Xylthixlm]

(shrug)

[Xylthixlm]

Interesting stuff in the history. This:

Antihero, image, and Malyss are scum. There should be another one or two I'm missing, but that's most of the scumteam right there.

I think that would have gotten a stronger scum reaction if I was right about 2 out of 3.

xyl, back up your claims on antihero, because all i see from him is town

I don't like his interactions with zwet and empking. They smell bad.

[Xylthixlm]

xyl, why aren't you actively scumhunting right now

I'm waiting to see who starts a wagon on who.

[Xylthixlm]

your read of me hasn't improved since WIH2 I see

[Xylthixlm]

your play hasn't improved since wih2 i see

touché

[Xylthixlm]

You are calling ortolan town for voting AH instead of lynching malyss, but think image is scum despite doing the same thing. You should reconsider at least one of those positions.

q21/Kinetic has one or two things towards being town but I don't recall an overall pattern of town behavior.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: What do you think of q21's interactions with antihero?

[Xylthixlm]

You are calling ortolan town for voting AH instead of lynching malyss, but think image is scum despite doing the same thing. You should reconsider at least one of those positions.

image voted AH on day 2.

Ortolan voted AH on Day 1 during the malyss wagon/lynch. image was on the malyss lynch.

Oops. Carry on.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: What do you think of q21's interactions with antihero?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm waiting for the love triangle to start dominating the game and destroying the scum like they're supposed to.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't think we should be lynching image or Nuwen.

roflcopter: What do

you

think of q21's interactions with antihero?

[Xylthixlm]

i haven't looked at them, but q struck me as town

Take a look and tell me what you think

[Xylthixlm]

uh, i really don't see much of anything going on between the two of them

It looks to me like q21 & antihero barely interacted at all.

[Xylthixlm]

xyl, what exactly just convinced you image was not a good place for your vote?

Gut. His overall pattern of behavior just doesn't make sense as scum. He's done some individual scummy things, but they don't fit with the rest of his play if I assume he's scum.

Can you ellaborate?

Um... how do I put this. If he's scum, he would have to be talented enough to project a general flow of play that's pretty well matched with what town would do, but stupid enough to tie himself to a doomed scumbuddy. I can't see those two traits together in one playstyle.

[Xylthixlm]

uh, i really don't see much of anything going on between the two of them

It looks to me like q21 & antihero barely interacted at all.

the same is true of many players. why does this make q21 so remarkable to you?

who else?

[Xylthixlm]

i don't recall image matching the pace of play with most of the town until he came under intense scrutiny and decided it was time to try and bomb me, so your model is flawed

But you're assuming he would play really dumb scum at the beginning, and then be able to switch gears and play really good scum once he comes under scrutiny.

[Xylthixlm]

I took a position on antihero. zwet was scum.

Antihero, image, and Malyss are scum. There should be another one or two I'm missing, but that's most of the scumteam right there.

[Xylthixlm]

uh.. he's not playing really good scum now that he's under scrutiny, he's still playing really obvious scum. you're just ignoring it.

Pretend I'm stupid and explain it to me. Shouldn't be hard.

[Xylthixlm]

now lets try you answering my question instead of deflecting with another question, shall we xyl?

your question is based on the false premise that q21's lack of interaction was not remarkable.

[Xylthixlm]

I never interacted with zwet because I was

on vacation in Japan with no computer and very expensive data access and they've never heard of wi-fi there

and you guys had lynched him by the time I got back.

[Xylthixlm]

it was not based on any premise. i am asking you what you find so remarkable about it. i am simultaneously asking why it is more remarkable than any other pair of players who have failed to interact, or who until one of them died had failed to interact. you are being deliberately obtuse.

no, you are.

[Xylthixlm]

I thought it was unusual. I asked a question to see if either the people I consider good and probably town also considered it unusual. The answer is "no". Fine.

[Xylthixlm]

catchy new name for when a scumbag chainsaw defends their fellow scumbag from an attack by a third fellow scumbag: DOUBLE DECKER BUS

yes i'm awesome

no thats not what happened in this game

If q21 turns out scum I'm posting this in MD.

Meanwhile

vote: Nuwen

[Xylthixlm]

I thought it was unusual. I asked a question to see if either the people I consider good and probably town also considered it unusual. The answer is "no". Fine.

I know I'm being obnoxious, but I am honestly open to discussion with you if you think I'm wrong.

DO you think the q21/AH/zwet interraction that I quoted above means anything? Does it make you reevauate? Seriously... give your opinion.

You're probably right, having three scum interact like that would be weird.

[Xylthixlm]

otherwise, asking if the people you think are good and probably pro town agree with you seems like a gussied up version of throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks.

the trick is throwing it just right so that only the scum stick

[Xylthixlm]

It's either elvis/rofl or Xyl/nuwen. I am unsure of which

Pretty sure it's neither of those.

[Xylthixlm]

What bothered you about q21 in the first place though? Because that might have a bearing.

In a word: Kinetic.

[Xylthixlm]

What bothered you about q21 in the first place though? Because that might have a bearing.

In a word: Kinetic.

what has he done?

Absolutely nothing. That's what bothered me.

[Xylthixlm]

I'll admit the computer blowing up thing is bad luck, but posting no content in his first 5 days (in a game with 2 week deadlines) sets off flags for me.

Holy 70 pages Batman. I'll try to catch up asap.

Sorry, I'm in the middle of a move and this game is large. I started reading from Page 1, but since then I skipped and started reading from page 60. I should have something relevant to say before the end of this day. Posting now to avoid the "he's lurking" tag.

Posting again, avoiding that 72 hour thing, reading right now on this game, should be caught up-ish soon.

My computer blew up. Hoping to have the issue resolved by tonight.

This is why 72 hours = good policy lynch. Players "careless" enough to exceed the lurking timer are either scum or an active detriment to the town. Getting back to wherever I was reading (and taking yet another look at Elvis; she was the first person to point out Mastin's lurking).

Kinetic needs to get in here.

Yea, I know that. I'm trying desperately to catch up. I need a new computer but I trudged up my old laptop.

I'm quickly catching up on my responsibilities in the game I'm modding then I plan on reading here until I go to sleep since my laptop can't run anything that is worth distracting me.

This might work out gloriously for this game >>.

[Xylthixlm]

Stephoscope: If MafiaSSK was scum he wouldn't have to out the masons, he could just tell his scumbuddies in their QT.

[Xylthixlm]

Stephoscope: If MafiaSSK was scum he wouldn't have to out the masons, he could just tell his scumbuddies in their QT.

I know that, but why on earth has he been acting this way?

On the other hand, if he was scum he wouldn't be worried about outing the masons because he'd know the scum already know who they are.

[Xylthixlm]

mafiassk is bad but i don't think he is scum

Do you think he isn't scum?

[Xylthixlm]

Three masons... why aren't we lynching tajo now?

[Xylthixlm]

We have three basic possibilities here:

All the masons are town
One of the masons is scum
All of the masons are scum

(Two scum masons is theoretically possible but really unlikely.)

As far as I can tell, all three possibilities require MafiaSSK to be playing like an idiot.

[Xylthixlm]

Okay MafiaSSK, last chance.

Why are you faking a post restriction?

[Xylthixlm]

Okay MafiaSSK, last chance.

Why are you faking a post restriction?

Thought it would be fun.

Was it?

[Xylthixlm]

Okay MafiaSSK, last chance.

Why are you faking a post restriction?

Thought it would be fun.

Was it?

Yeah.
Fun is what mafia's about.

Do you think you faking a PR hurt the town?

[Xylthixlm]

image: It didn't occur to you that if one of them was claiming confirmed masons and the other one was claiming unconfirmed masons, the most likely situation was that one of them was wrong? Half-confirmed masons are extremely rare.

[Xylthixlm]

Did tajo just seriously suggest that changing my scumlist is a scumtell?

[Xylthixlm]

tajo: I'd rather make an accusation and have to change my mind about it later than not make any accusations at all.

So, who do

you

think is scum?

[Xylthixlm]

tajo: I'd rather make an accusation and have to change my mind about it later than not make any accusations at all.

So, who do

you

think is scum?

Yes, but which are the reasons why you change your mind?

On Nuwen? My town feeling on her isn't particularly strong, my town feelings on elvis and rofl are very strong, and elvis and rofl think Nuwen is scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl do you have examples in games where you are lead by prob town players?

Nope! You're going to have to use your brain on this one, rather than just assuming I always play the same way as town.

[Xylthixlm]

Well, I suppose actually you

could

assume that I always play the same way as town. You'd be wrong, but I can't stop you from making the assumption...

[Xylthixlm]

I really really want to vote ssk but my gut doesn't say he's scum.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: how do you feel about tajo?

[Xylthixlm]

I think I need to see a game where tajo was scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Thanks. I've been in 3 games with tajo and he was town in all of them.

[Xylthixlm]

Thanks. I've been in 3 games with tajo and he was town in all of them.

Do you think my play is different here than in those 3 games?

No, but that doesn't mean much. I glanced through that scum game and your playstyle appears to be annoyingly hard to read.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like the "scum would never defend a townie" argument from tajo, especially since he only seems to apply it when the townie being defended is himself. It seems more like reverse OMGUS than anything else.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like the "scum would never defend a townie" argument from tajo, especially since he only seems to apply it when the townie being defended is himself. It seems more like reverse OMGUS than anything else.

Why would it apply with someone that Im not sure is town?

You're sure that the dead townies are town. Why not apply your theory there?

[Xylthixlm]

SpyreX is town

^ By tajologic I must be town.

[Xylthixlm]

Well, I'm not saying your logic is wrong, since I

am

town.

[Xylthixlm]

I wanted to check tajo's tell so I looked through a game where Nuwen was scum, and Mind Screw 3 where I was scum, to see if either of us cleared a townie like that in either game.

Nope. (I did clear a scumbuddy in MS3.)

tajo might have something here, maybe.

[Xylthixlm]

Did some rereading. I'm feeling decently confident that image and Nuwen are scum here. Nuwen's defense of tajo is halfhearted at best. image was giving me scummy vibes earlier, and reading his posts the only people he's really defended were scum.

This is the operative statement. The others are inoperative.

Town

Xylthixlm
roflcopter
elvis_knits
populartajo
Stephoscope
MafiaSSK

Unknown

Empking
Kinetic
ortolan

Scum

image
Nuwen

[Xylthixlm]

why are you voting image instead of Nuwen when Nuwen is at 4 votes and image is at 0?

[Xylthixlm]

Is the difference in scumminess really more important than the difference in bandwagon size?

[Xylthixlm]

I agree that the third mason should be revealed.

[Xylthixlm]

We clearly have a majority of people who think that Nuwen is scum. What exactly is the holdup? Are we waiting for her to lurk 72 hours? Are we waiting for someone else to lurk 72 hours?

[Xylthixlm]

Mafia already knows two masons, learning the third won't help.

I'm a little surprised nuwen doesn't consider the possibility that the masons are really mafia even while she speculates about them being cult. Presumably because she's mafia and knows they aren't.

(if they are cult I'd say knowing another member would help town not just mafia. Nuwen's attempt to cast suspicion on that basis fails.)

[Xylthixlm]

There's nothing that nuwen could claim that would make me unvote.

[Xylthixlm]

=====[]
HAMMER
[]=====

[Xylthixlm]

I'm pretty sure empking is the last mason, but I'd like confirmation.

[Xylthixlm]

<3

[Xylthixlm]

I mentioned cult first, actually.

[Xylthixlm]

Where's that mod? I wanna see Nuwen's scum flip.

[Xylthixlm]

#$&%*@!$$#^$%&*$%@

[Xylthixlm]

The third mason needs to claim immediately.

[Xylthixlm]

EBWOP: The third mason needs to claim immediately, or I am going to conclude that this is an all-vanilla game and the masons are lying scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Okay, we have masons.

Now we need tajo's result.

[Xylthixlm]

MafiaSSK: It would have helped more if you had actually participated in the game you know

[Xylthixlm]

MafiaSSK: It would have helped more if you had actually participated in the game you know

Meh. I challenged ,myself and couldn't complete the challenge.

You're lucky I can't be bothered to go to Colorado and beat you over the head with a foam bat.

[Xylthixlm]

Quite surprised by rofl flipping town.

rofl was soooo obvtown.

Where's tajo?

[Xylthixlm]

Ugh.

Empking, Stephoscope: We're probably in LyLo, or very close. Unvote.

[Xylthixlm]

I have the telepathic ability to respond to the vote count one second before it's posted.

[Xylthixlm]

BTW: There's a nasty potential for a scum forced win if we're in lylo after the first lynch of the day. If they get two people past 72h, we can only lynch one of them, and then the other makes a bonus kill for the game. If we have to lynch for inactivity we need to be very careful to do it before a second person hits 72h.

[Xylthixlm]

image stalling by saying he can't make a real post until tuesday is worrying to me for that reason. If we're waiting for him to make a claim first, we can't do anything until he cooperates. We need everyone to claim and weigh our options quickly.

Also, tajo needs to post.

Yeah. I noticed the forced win yesterday, but I was going to keep quiet about it as long as there was no risk of it actually happening. image's stalling and tajo's lack of post are worrying enough to bring it up.

[Xylthixlm]

Totally agreed.

[Xylthixlm]

Im here.

Got no result again.

Im going to be terribly busy today.

Please dont do anything crazy until I come back.

...

Who did you target?

[Xylthixlm]

The masons are town, guys. Stop being stupid.

[Xylthixlm]

Although I won't object to detailed grilling about the QT if we can do it without breaking the rules.

[Xylthixlm]

Why are you so sure Xyl? (I'm not doubting their mason claim but whether they are all in fact town).

A combination of factors including behavior, meta, and mod-meta. Call it "gut" if you like.

[Xylthixlm]

Im here.

Got no result again.

Im going to be terribly busy today.

Please dont do anything crazy until I come back.

...

Who did you target?

Wasnt it obvious I would target you?

What were all your targets again?

[Xylthixlm]

tajo: Did you ask Yosarian2 to clarify what result you would get if you were blocked vs what result you would get if your target did nothing?

[Xylthixlm]

Hmm. So, why target me? Do you think that, if I was scum, the scum would send me to make the kill?

[Xylthixlm]

Masons asking for themselves would be a good idea.

I don't know what Yos will say, but if I was mod I'd probably say that copying and pasting content from the QT is okay but posting the quicktopic link itself is against the spirit of the game.