Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hi everyone, I'm replacing Shin in this game. Commencing reread.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, it seems like I didn't miss much.

Mr. Flay, why do you think Shadow Knight is an Aes Sedai?

dum Dum DUM...

Original Roll String: 1d26

1 26-Sided Dice: (13) = 13

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: SpyreX

All those who support the Dark One must be vanquished!

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, I'm assuming you have read the books and have knowledge of the flavor?

I have read the books several times over. Heck, I was the first person to mod a Wheel of Time mafia game on this site, that I know of...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: fuzzylightning

First you FoS Shadow Knight for his talk of Aes Sedai while he is trying to stop people from outing them, then you vote Fabian for trying to out Aes Sedai? This is not only inconsistent, but it smells a bit fishy to me as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

SpyreX, why are you are Saidar channeler? Most people who channel Saidar are Aes Sedai, wisdoms, or a few other groups of people I won't name now in order to avoid fueling scum fakeclaims. None of them really have a history of being crazy that I can remember, so that leads me to question why we have an insane Saidar channeler.

I would also like to note what a great strategy it would be for scum to back up a townie who made a stupid claim and in the process use it to try to confirm themselves.

FoS: SpyreX

[Mastermind of Sin]

I want you to be real clear about this.

You are lynching me for being clear with my role because I -may- become a SK because in the -other- game (the one that the mod said this one isn't a mirror of) the same thing happened?

Or.. are you voting for me because you don't believe what I've had to say?

I guess, what I'm getting at: what is my scum motive for any of the admittedly awesome things I've done in trying to check Fabian out?

Had you been a Saidar channeler, your scum motive for trying to check Fabian out is to make yourself look good for confirming someone you know to be town (or at least not in your scum group), as well as outing yourself with a claim while not under pressure, which lends credibility. As a Saidin channeler, there isn't really a scum motive, it just proves you weren't paying attention and really fucked up.

Seriously, people, can we stop claiming for no fucking reason? I'm tired of everyone telling scum what their role is.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not really seeing adequate justification for the SpyreX lynch at this time. It is true that those who channel Saidin can be considered a threat and should be monitored carefully, but if he can control his powers, it's possible he could be useful to the town. I suggest this instead: We let him live and assist us, and if at any point he ceases to be useful to the town, we instruct the Saidar channelers to gentle him, which I'd assume can be done without having to reveal who those channelers are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Although your assessment is fine, the fact you said nothing, nothing at all that hadn't already been said is worrisome.

Not as much as ABR though.

Are you talking to me? o.O

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Mr. Flay

Jester? Really? I don't think you believe that at all. I'm gonna call bullshit on this one, especially since I've seen scum try to use the "lynch the possible jester" ploy to pull off a mislynch on Day 1 before. Mr. Flay is a good enough player that if he was town, he'd be suggesting that we have a vig kill the possible jester tonight instead of lynching him today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think I've been fairly obvious that I believe SpyreX's claim is most likely true at this point, and that he is *NOT* a jester. In fact, worst case scenario, I believe his most likely "anti-town" role is that he might turn SK in the future, but that he is protown right now. I've already said what I want to do with him.

If you don't want any more claims today, there is an easy solution. Let's go back to lynching Fabian, who claimed at like Lynch Minus 10. Not only that, but he claimed doctor and claimed ability results that could not be confirmed by anybody. It's pretty much a classic scum claim if you look at it mechanically and ignore the flavor (which is fairly generic and easily faked for this theme).

Unvote, Vote: xxFabianxx, FoS: Mr. Flay

[Mastermind of Sin]

Role-claim time!

I claim Aes Sedai. I'm in a pair of Aes Sedai.

Aes Sedai have several abilities in common.

We can detect Saidar.

We can all gentle a Saidin. It takes

at least

three Aes Sedai to gentle a Saidin, and they must do it at the same time.

It is not guaranteed to work.

We can also still a Saidar. It takes a minimum of two Aes Sedai to still a Saidar, and it is not guaranteed to work.

We all have specific abilities as well.

Aes Sedai are allowed to hammer townies. We are not allowed to use abilities that will lead to an innocent person's death. Voting does not count as an "ability", so we can hammer all we want. I'm not allowed to lie, but I can refuse to answer your questions all I want.

Ok then, this is simple. Fabian claims he can detect Saidar. You claim you can detect Saidar. We are all in the same room right now. Fabian has claimed that he detected Saidar today. Have you, ABR, detected Saidar today?

[Mastermind of Sin]

And I'm going to bring my focus back to Mastermind of Sin from back on page 15. I want to know his response to my 359.

My response to *your* 359? Post 359 was mine...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok then, this is simple. Fabian claims he can detect Saidar. You claim you can detect Saidar. We are all in the same room right now. Fabian has claimed that he detected Saidar today. Have you, ABR, detected Saidar today?

MoS makes sense here. ABR should answer first, then Fabian can confirm. If someone can think of a way to get both answers simultaneously without breaking the rule against codes, I'm all ears.

There aren't two questions. Fabian has

already

claimed to have detected Saidar. I want ABR to confirm or deny this. That's all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If I can detect Saidar, and ABR can detect Saidar, then I would be of the strong mindset that other Aes Sedai can detect it as well.

I'm guessing some of you out there also know someone was weaving Saidar today, otherwise I would have had a lot more people who "didn't believe my claim", know what I mean?

But I'll humour you and wait for ABR to say it.

Yes, because Aes Sedai are so eager to reveal themselves to your scumpartner by pushing for your lynch, right? Nice try.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*scumpartners

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, please stop ignoring the question at hand and tell us whether or not you detected Saidar today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, because Aes Sedai are so eager to reveal themselves to your scumpartner by pushing for your lynch, right? Nice try.

Yes, because anyone who simply says they do not believe my claim must be Aes Sedai, and what I said made NO sense at all, right?

My logic is undeniable, if I lied more people would know and would be pushing me for more information, and it's not exactly hard to push someone after the way I acted earlier in the game without becoming

"Aes Sedai who are eager to reveal themselves (sic)"

, though you seem to think it is.

Like I said, I'm happy to wait for ABR to answer your questions about it though, whether or not you choose to ignore logic, for reasons I can't tell.

Your logic only works if your scumpartners are stupid enough to assume everyone pushing you is Aes Sedai. However, it *would* have been easy for scum to narrow down who might be Aes Sedai by seeing the list of people that pushed you in response to your Saidar claim and then look for other Aes Sedai tells from among that group.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not answering your detection questions.

Why would you refuse to confirm someone else's claim or out them as scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fuck ABR.

Shadow Knight, you have claimed Aes Sedai. Can you detect Saidar? If so, have you detected its use so far today?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Shadow Knight, please answer my questions.

Also, is there anything in ABR's original claim that has details he would not know if he wasn't Aes Sedai, things that weren't in the mini? This can be a yes or no question, you don't have to be specific (in fact it's probably preferred at this time).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ohh hey sup lurker that jumps in 8 minutes after your name is mentioned. How are you today?

If you'd like me to really explain why I can, but since I'm soooo anti-town better just lynch me before I pollute the minds of the town more.

How about you just explain yourself instead of whining about someone disagreeing with you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You have never been caught, or you have never lied? (within the context of this game, of course)

[Mastermind of Sin]

I DO have the ability to detect Saidar. I was NOT notified that I felt the use of Saidar.

Unless ABR comes out and counterclaims this, I think it's obvious that Fabian is the scum here. Why are you people not seeing this? SK's Aes Sedai claim is much stronger than Fabian's wisdom claim, especially when everything about that claim is earmarked as a scum claim. He has been caught in a blatant lie about his ability, and I'm much more willing to chance losing a town wisdom than losing a claimed Aes Sedai, which is a much more powerful role to lose (and is more likely to be the truthful claim).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Let me make it simple for the rest of you:

Lynch Fabian, he lied about his ability and is trying to get away with it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I suggest anyone who catches themselves starting to be "swayed" by Fabian's claim read this post from the WoT Mini, which details the roles. The information contained there is sufficient to construct Fabian's fake claim without needing any information from this setup.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The existence of the ability to still (not gentle) reinforces the idea in my head that there is Black Ajah in the game. Maybe even two or three.

Not necessarily. You can still Forsaken...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Today is for sorting out the mess with the Power Roles.

No...today is for SCUMHUNTING.

The existence of the ability to still (not gentle) reinforces the idea in my head that there is Black Ajah in the game. Maybe even two or three.

Stilling was an ability in the mini as well...no Black Ajah there...

Anyways.

I'm sick of rolefishing.

Speculating on the setup is going to screw us again, like in the mini, at this rate...

Poke me when we actually start scumhunting again... -_-

*POKE*

Are you even paying attention? We already caught scum in Fabian, who lied about his ability to detect Saidar and has been counterclaimed by two Aes Sedai.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I suggest anyone who catches themselves starting to be "swayed" by Fabian's claim read this post from the WoT Mini, which details the roles. The information contained there is sufficient to construct Fabian's fake claim without needing any information from this setup.

Really? What makes you think those roles lead to a "Deputy/Nurse" role, axiomatically? Especially a Wisdom, which probably ought not to exist during the Breaking (Kinetic's played fast and loose with a few details, it's not really a tell)?

My point is that none of the details of Fabian's role are details that would "confirm" him, in the sense that the details of his claim that might be confirmable by other people with similar roles (ie Aes Sedai) can all be found by searching that post I linked from the last game. The role "deputy/nurse" or whatever is really just the most obvious claim for a town wisdom, since what they do is heal people (and predict the weather). Ultimately, everything in Fabian's claim that is specific to the flavor of this game could be obtained by decent knowledge of the books and a quick study of the WoT mini. The other generic details of his claim all point directly to him being scum.

Are you even paying attention? We already caught scum in Fabian, who lied about his ability to detect Saidar and has been counterclaimed by two Aes Sedai.

This is exactly what I am talking about with role speculation.

You are professing a lynch, not on a basis of scumtells, but on the basis of a roleclaim. I dislike this.

Not to mention, he has been "counterclaimed" by two roles that are different than his, one of the people being Shadow Knight, who is trying to get every Aes Sedai to claim their sleeping positions (hugely anti-town much?). You think that's a smart counterclaim to lynch based on? Forgive me if I am of a different viewpoint.

Are you really so naive that you think scumtells can't be gleaned from roleclaims? What kind of mafia do you think we are playing? The majority of good mafia playing involves dissecting roleclaims to figure out if they were done by scum. Fabian's results being counterclaimed by two roles

that have the same ability and would have received the same results

is really just icing on the cake that should confirm his scumminess to EVERYONE. I did not start going after Fabian based on him being counterclaimed. I went after Fabian because what he's doing screams scum. First, he claimed after a miniscule number of votes because he freaked out under the pressure. Secondly, he claimed doctor, a role that is unconfirmable and pretty much a classic scum claim, especially on Day 1. Thirdly, he used an

appeal to emotion

by trying to make people empathize with him over his drunk posting, saying things like "I give up, I was already lynched after I posted drunk" (not an exact quote, just a paraphrase). All of these things point strongly to scum actions. Add on top of that the fact that two fairly believable (far more than Fabian's) roleclaims have both claimed that Saidar was not detected, which in turn means that Fabian lied about detecting Saidar, and you've got scum in the bag. There is no reason not to lynch him at this point.

As for SK's actions, I think only the most tunnel-visioned, blind players could not see the possible benefit that SK saw from claiming locations. This does not excuse the fact that SK didn't consider the cons along with the pros, but my experience with him leads me to believe he merely does not fully understand the implications of his plan in terms of benefiting scum. When an idea such as his is proposed that is fairly obviously not going to go well for the town, 90% of the time it comes from a protown player who just didn't think it through. Scum do not often suggest plans that the rest of the town are going to reject outright because of how bad it is. You're playing irrationally and assuming that anyone who suggests something that doesn't help the town is clearly anti-town, instead of a possibly pro-town person who didn't consider their plan carefully enough. Scum are motivated to try and seem protown, so they are actually *more* likely to avoid suggesting such plans than a protown player.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Can you humor me and break down his roleclaim exactly into these categories? Because I'm still not seeing it - Wisdom wasn't a role in the mini, he's actually claiming a sort of Lost Mason/Deputy/Nurse, and all of the bits of his role PM make sense to me. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but you're being too vague at present. Also, remember that he was the FIRST claim, so you can't use ABR or Shadow Knight or anybody else in your argument.

Isacc, this is in response to you as well, since my point was mainly that Wisdom didn't exist in the mini and there's no evidence of them in the books at this time period, so MoS' claim that "everything could be gleaned and constructed from existing knowledge" rang a little hollow for me.

I think you're taking this "time period" thing a little too literally. There is no reason to believe (imo) that town wisdoms do not exist in this time period, and if you *do* believe the time period has *any* bearing on the setup whatsoever, that's further evidence that Fabian is

NOT

telling the truth. Regardless, anyone who knows anything about the theme knows town wisdoms exist and that their primary function is to heal people and predict the weather, because they are untrained Saidar channelers. So Fabian, looking for a fake claim to make, would realize that town wisdom is perfect for him, because it allows him to claim a power role that can channel Saidar and couple it with a doctor claim, which is classic scum. In addition, Aes Sedai being masons existed in the last game, so his claim of being a potential mason or w/e isn't that impressive. In fact, it brings up the question of who he would be masons with, if the Aes Sedai are already paired up as ABR and SK claim. Is there some random unpaired Aes Sedai, or does Fabian just join into a threesome? Both are possible, but given the knowledge we have right now of the setup, it casts some more doubt on his claim. In addition, his claim of detecting Saidar can be lifted directly from the mini, since the Aes Sedai in that game have that ability as well. He also claimed he could still people, another ability from the mini. After that, he has claimed he could be trained and gain more abilities, but how any of that happens or what he gains out of it is conveniently vague, so we have no way of knowing whether he is just failing to get the right situation for his role to expand or never actually had those mechanics to begin with.

So, as I was saying, everything Fabian claimed could be crafted from knowledge everyone has access to, so his claim doesn't prove any sort of inside knowledge of *this* setup, which would help prove him protown.

As for SK's actions, I think only the most tunnel-visioned, blind players could not see the possible benefit that SK saw from claiming locations.

I don't think anybody's saying there aren't benefits. But the cons outweigh, for me, and most of the benefits can be achieved by things like claiming at Daybreak, without all of the same cons.

I understand that there are cons to the plan, and that they outweigh the benefits. I never said it wasn't like that. My point is, there *are* benefits, so it's understandable that someone could get tunnel-visioned on the benefits and fail to consider the cons of their own plan as they get caught up in trying to help the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fabian's results being counterclaimed by two roles

that have the same ability and would have received the same results

is really just icing on the cake that should confirm his scumminess to EVERYONE. I did not start going after Fabian based on him being counterclaimed.

How do you know the abilities are exactly the same and recieve the same kinds of results?

Isn't this obvious? All three of them have claimed to detect Saidar, the only difference being that the Aes Sedai version is MORE powerful, something that really helps *my* case, not yours. If all three detect Saidar and Saidar was used, there is no logical conclusion that leads one to believe Fabian would detect it and they wouldn't.

When an idea such as his is proposed that is fairly obviously not going to go well for the town, 90% of the time it comes from a protown player who just didn't think it through. Scum do not often suggest plans that the rest of the town are going to reject outright because of how bad it is.

Unless they think they can play it off well as pro-town and get away with it...it's something I've done as scum, successfully...

Thinking of what *you* would do as scum is never really the best plan for catching scum, especially when there are differences in skill level or play style between yourself and the player you are analyzing You have to think of what *they* would do, which is an entirely different mindset. I don't think you and SK are similar scum players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

PS. Someone used Saidar today, as I said, and someone used Saidar today AFTER I last said someone used Saidar.
That's the last time I will ever tell you that anyone has used Saidar, unless I can fit it with someone acting scummy, or there is a very good reason for it other than I think people are trying to out Power Roles.

Hmm, really? You're saying you detected Saidar *again*? When?

ABR, SK, did you detect anything?

[Mastermind of Sin]

My point is, you mentioning the "Still" ability doesn't help your case, since that existed in the mini. The concept of Old Blood is something found in the books as well, by the way.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, really? You're saying you detected Saidar *again*? When?

ABR, SK, did you detect anything?

I'm not telling you when.
I have been honest about everything so far, including my first Saidar detection, but there isn't a chance I'm telling you when, even though after all your pushing of me I think there is a good chance you are town.

That shit can be tracked to the timing of posts and when people were online.
It can be tracked to either Aes Sedai, Black ajah (Who are Aes Sedai, but let's not get pedantic), Dark Friends, or Forsaken, or god knows what else.
In a game on Day 1, statistically if I take a wild guess at what characters are in the game, chances are it points to Aes Sedai, so no.

I honestly don't think that you claiming when you detected Saidar would actually allow that person to be tracked, because you wouldn't find out about it until the Mod got online and told you. I'm just looking for a general time frame, anyway. You don't have to get too specific ("within the last few days" would be far too broad, though, obviously)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fabian, what other mafia games have you played in other than this one?

[Mastermind of Sin]

A list will suffice, no need to dig up links for me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not telling you are anyone else about what time I detected Saidar, it has been used twice today and that's the last you'll get.

Sure you can say that it's down to the mod about when he replies and noone can take anything from that.
I want to refer you to your WIFOM bullshit argument about Aes Sedai not wanting to out themselves by pressuring me for lying because it would supposedly out them.
Why the hell does your theory about me telling you times not fit into your bullshit category? Rolefish more please.

Double standards, go take a running jump.

UnFos Mufasa
FoS MoS

I was getting a town read off of you, but you're blatanlty ignoring things and it's not sitting right with me.

How am I ignoring ANYTHING *or* rolefishing!? You're just throwing terms out there that have nothing to do with what you said...

As for my theory about Aes Sedai not wanting to pressure you, I was obviously right since two claimed Aes Sedai counterclaimed your Saidar detection, and one of them gut-reaction voted you and then unvoted a few posts later, and the other one didn't go after you at all! So you can hardly justify calling my theory bullshit, since so far I'm right on the mark. As for timing, I don't really need you to get more specific than "Sunday Afternoon" or "Thursday Morning". I'm just looking for a generic time frame, nothing specific enough to out any roles.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Am I the only one who finds Isacc's defense of Fabian pretty damning at this point?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Am I the only one who finds Isacc's defense of Fabian pretty damning at this point?

1.) I never "defended" Fabian. I had no reason to disbelieve the claim, especially when the two "counterclaims" were from people I had no reason to trust. I didn't defend him however, I simply chose not to support the lynch.

2.) Not supporting a lynch is a pretty weak scumtell, regardless of who is lynched. I could just as reasonably claim that some of the people on Fabian's wagon were scum bussing.

3.) Now, I may be arrogant here, but I'm a bit insulted by how stupid you must think I am. Let's say I was scum and Fabian was one of my buddies. Do you honestly think I would support him through an obviously false claim that he detected the one power? I'd have to mentally challenged to not bus a partner who was dumb enough to make that mistake. Moral of the story is, consider motivations. Do you honestly think I would act this way if I was scum?

If you're stupid enough to not realize Fabian is scum when you're town, then you're stupid enough to support him when everyone else realizes he's scum. You're not really making a good case for your intelligence, here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MBL is being pretty generically useless to this game. He is smart enough to know that going around randomly asking people questions to get *them* to contribute is no substitution for actually contributing, yet very few of his posts have contained anything besides that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If you're stupid enough to not realize Fabian is scum when you're town, then you're stupid enough to support him when everyone else realizes he's scum. You're not really making a good case for your intelligence, here.

That's terrible logic, insulting, wrong, and doesn't actually prove any point. Good job.

Your words, not mine. You directly stated that it would be stupid to support him as scum, because of "an obviously false claim that he detected the one power". How is it *not* stupid to support an obviously false claim when you are town? Regardless of your alignment, you admit that Fabian's claim was obviously false and that it's stupid to support it, which leaves me asking the question of why you supported it at all? You being scum makes more sense because then at least you have incentive to try to keep him alive.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MBL is being pretty generically useless to this game. He is smart enough to know that going around randomly asking people questions to get *them* to contribute is no substitution for actually contributing, yet very few of his posts have contained anything besides that.

I'm not interested in contributing per se. I'm interested in finding scum, as you appear to be. I'm glad your candidate appears to be coming up roses, and I'm pretty sure at least one of mine will as well.

Yes, but you know as well as I do that if you only ask questions and never comment on anything, not only do you leave us with nothing that we can use to read your towniness, but if you die, we lose any insight you might have gained from asking those questions, because you never told us.

Please give us your thoughts on Isacc, Mr. Flay, and Shadow Knight (in any order).

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's terrible logic, insulting, wrong, and doesn't actually prove any point. Good job.

Isacc, am I reading this wrong?

Apparently so.

If you notice, three out of the four statements there focus on how Mastermind's accusation didn't make sense...they were far more important than the "insulting" part.

I was not trying to deflect by calling it ad-hom...I didn't even use the words ad-hom or invective.

Anyways, my 735 should be more than clear enough to show

why

Mastermind's accusation didn't make sense.

If you notice, four out of the four statements are also completely unsupported and lacking any sort of justification. Your 375 doesn't really address the point at all, but I'll go ahead and show you why.

Also, just because you don't use the words "ad-hom" or "invective" doesn't mean that your posts aren't implying as much regardless. I believe that is what armlx is getting at.

-_-

You aren't even thinking correctly.

You directly stated that it would be stupid to support him as scum, because of "an obviously false claim that he detected the one power".

Regardless of your alignment, you admit that Fabian's claim was obviously false and that it's stupid to support it, which leaves me asking the question of why you supported it at all?

It would be "obviously false"

because I was scum

. As town, it's NOT obvious. Therefore, if I was scum it would be stupid to support his claim, because AS SCUM I would know it was false.

However, AS TOWN, the claim is NOT obviously false, since I DON'T KNOW HIS ROLE. Therefore it was not "obviously false."

Lrn2read.

This is a completely pointless and misleading statement. As scum, every roleclaim your partners make are "obviously false". By your argument, scum should *never* support their partners' claims, because in their eyes the claims are "obviously false". This doesn't make any sense at all, because there are clearly many situations where scumpartners should support each other's claims. The only time it's not prudent to do so is when your partner's falsification of their claim is clear

to the town

, which means that protown players should be able to see the claim is false. Therefore, the only way that your argument for scum not supporting Fabian's claim holds true is if you also support the lemma that town should have seen Fabian's claim as false. So, I return back to my previous statement, whereupon both situations being equal, as scum you at least have incentive to support Fabian

because he is your scumpartner

.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm glad you addressed the issue Mastermind (I was worried you weren't going to), however you are dead wrong.

The only time it's not prudent to do so is when your partner's falsification of their claim is clear to the town, which means that protown players should be able to see the claim is false.

You're missing the fact that as scum, I would have known the channeling claim was unfounded and thereby foolish to make.

The point is this. There is only one logical scenario in which I would believe a claim that Fabian had detected channeling. I would have to both not know whether or not the Power had been channeled (ergo, not be an Aes Sedai or communicate with them), and also not know what Fabian's role was.

If I was his scumpartner (as you are claiming) I would know he was lying (reason 1 to not support a claim, as I would thereby know it would be able to be counterclaimed). As soon as the Aes Sedai counter-claimed I would know for sure that he was wrong, and that therefore he was liable to die (as, he WAS lying and outright liars tend to die eventually) and then the only logical scum reaction would have been to distance.

The only

logical

reaction as town was to vote Fabian after two Aes Sedal counter-claimed, so that doesn't really help your case. There was no logical reason to defend him as town, yet you did. For you to believe Fabian's claim, there had to be a logical reason to completely disbelieve TWO fully supported roleclaims that backed each other through detail reveals, and there was no reason to do that whatsoever. Just because ABR and SK's playstyles rub you the wrong way and they did stupid stuff is not a reasonable argument for thinking they were lying when everything each of them said about their roles was backed up by the other one.

As you can see, your argument is extremely superficial. It is an extremely basic argument of "OMG connection, they must both be the exact same alignment!" It lacks an actual analysis of actions and shows a lack of complex thought. It'd be no different than if I called you out for bussing because you were so quick to disbelieve the claim.

It's simple, enough said. Maybe it'd work in a newbie game, but we are big kids here and we're more complicated than that.

Your arguments for thinking ABR and SK were scum were completely superficial, because it showed that you had no real knowledge of the players or their playstyle whatsoever. That only holds up in a newbie game, kid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP:

FoS: Isacc

Not ready to vote him yet, but I'm strongly considering it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only logical reaction as town was to vote Fabian after two Aes Sedal counter-claimed, so that doesn't really help your case.

ULTRA craplogic.

Calling it craplogic doesn't make it so. You need to elaborate if you want anyone to take that comment seriously.

There was no logical reason to defend him as town, yet you did. For you to believe Fabian's claim, there had to be a logical reason to completely disbelieve TWO fully supported roleclaims that backed each other through detail reveals, and there was no reason to do that whatsoever. Just because ABR and SK's playstyles rub you the wrong way and they did stupid stuff is not a reasonable argument for thinking they were lying when everything each of them said about their roles was backed up by the other one.

Except that their roles could have worked different. We didn't have much information to go on at the time.

No, they didn't. ABR explained exactly how their ability worked, and they were simply a more powerful version of the ability Fabian claimed. There was absolutely no reason for Fabian to detect Saidar when they didn't. In fact, note that only AFTER ABR's 552 where he explained how his ability was actually different (and also indirectly claimed that he had not detected Saidar) did Fabian claim his ability was named "Lesser Detect Saidar" (in 565). It was obvious that he was basing his ability around being a weaker version of the Aes Sedai ability, so there was no reason to believe his would work when theirs didn't.

Your arguments for thinking ABR and SK were scum were completely superficial, because it showed that you had no real knowledge of the players or their playstyle whatsoever. That only holds up in a newbie game, kid.

Nice Strawman. You absolutely dodged the entire issue here.

I didn't dodge anything. You spout statements about "analysis" and "complex thought", when I have been very clear in explaining myself throughout this game. You're just throwing things out there and hoping they stick so that you don't have to reap the consequences of your actions.

It's also interesting to note that you used a strawman in the above quote, ignoring MY issue to try and call a strawman on me.

FOS: Spyrex

Also one ought to get thrown on MoS: for attacking me for not attacking Fabian, when for two pages people have been pointing out that Albert didn't attack him and yet they completely ignore him. A bit o' tunnel vision here.

I never said ABR attacked Fabian. He did, however, claim to have not detected Saidar and expressed that he had no idea how Fabian could have detected Saidar. That is all the information I needed to be convinced of Fabian's guilt (on top of SK's claim), and it's all you should've needed as well.

EBWOP: FoS: Isacc

Not ready to vote him yet, but I'm strongly considering it.

Translates to "Even though I've been attacking him strongly for 5 pages, I want to make sure he's a popular lynch before I vote him."

Town sticks to their guns. Why the sudden FOS only?.

Because I'm not entirely convinced you aren't just stupid instead of being scum. That's the one thing you have going for you right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: fuzzylightning

First you FoS Shadow Knight for his talk of Aes Sedai while he is trying to stop people from outing them, then you vote Fabian for trying to out Aes Sedai? This is not only inconsistent, but it smells a bit fishy to me as well.

BIG

FOS:MOS

I think it's pretty clear Fabian WAS trying to out pro-town power roles. Him attacking FuzzyLightning for pointing that out seems scummy to me, in a "chainsaw defense" kind of way.

I wasn't voting fuzzylightning because I thought Fabian wasn't trying to out Aes Sedai. I was voting fuzzylightning for flip-flopping between voting someone who was trying to stop Aes Sedai from being outed to voting someone who was tyring to out Aes Seadi.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why did Flay claim out of the blue?

Where did Flay claim?

I'm feeling Yos2's most recent posts, they echo some of the problems I'm starting to have with Mr. Flay's play.

FoS: Mr. Flay

[Mastermind of Sin]

The Flay scenario is interesting. If he was scum, odds are he could just tell his partners as there's presumably "day" talk given this is Deep South. Its also possible he's some traitor role (Black Ajah maybe?) not in on a day talk, so....

Its still worth looking into, and Flay was one of the people who I was reasonably suspect of.

Vote Flay

I also like Flay as some sort of SK role, since that would explain the proposed lack of "day" talk.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The people who hadn't claimed since the last claim list was counted:

Seraphim - Silo
julienvonwolfe - AFK, promised reread in the next few days
Benmage - River
Tenchi - Asked for replacement
Slicey - V/LA, slowly rereading
Mastermind of Sin - Silo
Tuberkulos - replaced in, slowly rereading
Myndrunner - no post since April 29, needs replacement if he doesn't respond soon, since his reasons for being AFK was school and that should be over soon

So we're still waiting on 5 people.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Chainsaw defense?

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol, y'all have fancy names for this stuff these days. Back in my day, we called it "misdirection", but y'all have prolly never heard of that...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos2 caught a lot of contradictions in Isacc's play that I didn't see the first time around, especially the sudden flip from "Fabian's claim is pretty solid" to "Fabian's claim was utterly retarded" in the next few pages. That tips the scales for me.

Vote: Isacc

[Mastermind of Sin]

Rereading the MBL/Kairyuu exchange at the top of this page leads me to

FoS: Kairyuu

I agree that Kairyuu seems to be looking for things to threaten him personally when he reads, rather than looking for things that threaten the town (ie scum)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why the FoS on armlx?

For that matter, why the vote on Kairyuu? I understand why I find Kairyuu scummy, but I want to see you articulate so that I can believe you are thinking critically as you make choices in this game, rather than just blindly following what other people say and flailing votes around like you're hoping one of us is a piñata that will start spewing scum-candy if you hit it enough.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think a mob is forming......armlx, MoS, Yosarian.

Kairyuu says I'm confirmed town which I am not comfortable with. Only scum would say something like that when there's no evidence to prove it. If you look at his overall posts, all he does is look out for himself. Furthermore, its impossible that Kairyuu is AS because he claimed that Fabian was 100% scum before Fabian died.

How is it impossible? If Kairyuu wholly believed Fabian was scum, he could make that claim, could he not? If the evidence was compelling enough (which it was, imo), I see no reason for that to break oaths (if he was AS).

Note that the above statement is in no way stating whether or not I think Kairyuu is Aes Sedai. I'm just addressing ABR's hypothetical situation, although I'm not sure why he would bring up whether or not Kairyuu is Aes Sedai before he claims. If you think Kairyuu could be scum, you should've let him claim first to see if he claimed Aes Sedai, then nailed him on the contradiction. [Announcer]

This has been another sub-optimal play brought the deranged mind of ABR.

[/Announcer] Really, ABR, what were you thinking?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think it's pretty obvious here that Kairyuu and Isacc just failed in a gambit to confirm each other. Let's lynch them both. Lynching either one proves the other was lying, and there are great cases for both of them right now independent of their claims. I'd vote for either of them at this point. Their claims scream of inconsistencies (not targeting ABR, for example), so everything right now points to them being Fabian's scumbuddies.

How is it impossible? If Kairyuu wholly believed Fabian was scum, he could make that claim, could he not? If the evidence was compelling enough (which it was, imo), I see no reason for that to break oaths (if he was AS).

Note that the above statement is in no way stating whether or not I think Kairyuu is Aes Sedai. I'm just addressing ABR's hypothetical situation, although I'm not sure why he would bring up whether or not Kairyuu is Aes Sedai before he claims. If you think Kairyuu could be scum, you should've let him claim first to see if he claimed Aes Sedai, then nailed him on the contradiction. [Announcer]

This has been another sub-optimal play brought the deranged mind of ABR.

[/Announcer] Really, ABR, what were you thinking?

This is complete B.S.

I do not have the ability to say "x is scum" without MOD CONFIRMATION that the player is scum. That confirmation might be a lie, for example if I had a mason partner telling me that he had role confirmation that x is scum, and I believed he was in earnest. But barring unlikely circumstances such as these, I would break an oath by saying "Fabian is scum" like Kairyuu did.

So let me reiterate. I CANNOT say "x player is scum" without role confirmation / death scene / mod confirmation.

("x is scum" is a very definitive statement)

All Aes Sedai can double-check with the moderator if they wish.

Therefore, MoS, you are wrong.

Except you

did

have mod confirmation that Fabian was lying to use, as did every Aes Sedai, because you knew Saidar had not been detected when he claimed it had.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You say that but really what other play did he have other than slicey it checks out scum not town.

His attacks on people D1, his defenses against arguments, and his claim are all good examples...

---

Alright,

now

I'm going to bed. No more questions till the morning. This game is giving me a headache. Talk about the mute leading the blind, leading the deaf. This game could be used as a case study on witch hunts.

I'm immune to the One Power, and I was motivated last night. I'm not lying, and I'm going to laugh really hard once you all finally come to the realization.

And, before we waste a lynch, are there any One Power day-abilities? Because, you could just target me with one and see that I am immune to the One Power.

Right, because we're totally going to forget the someone else already blocked all one power abilities today, and we're gonna let you and Kairyuu off the hook for an entire day/night cycles just to test that and still not know if you are a one-power immune scum.

Also, kinda convenient that you now reveal you are immune to the one power after ABR reveals he targeted you and condemns you as scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Issac if you or Kaiyruu aren't lynched today who are your top suspects and why?

I am fairly certain that at least 1 of these three are scum: Armlx, MBL, MoS.

Based on a hunch, I think that either Yossarian or Flay is scum.

Casting a "one of three" net across people attacking him really helps support the case of Isacc being scum.

Isacc,

Can you please go into detail on why you find Armlx, MBL and MoS scummy?

He's OMGUSing me, pretty much.

Earlier, you were just saying that the mod never told you that you were immune to the one power, just that you figured it out yourself from your role flavor. But now, you apparently asked the mod about the details of your one power immunity, AND HE ANSWERED YOU? Why would he do that if he never even told you you were immune to the One Power? That dosn't make any sense to me at all.

Confirm vote:Isacc

I agree with Captain Hammer, Corporate Tool.

I don't care about Isacc. I was referring to myself, and myself alone. Isacc is a toss-up to me, and I wanted to see role confirmation before I pursued him. At the moment, I do not really care what role/alignment he is. I'm much more concerned with the fact that people are accusing me of cheating simply because of whatever reason people are using.

I have too much respect for this site and the people here to cheat like that. I have done almost nothing but hang around here since I joined last summer, and I would never risk all of that just to get a slight advantage in a game.

Isacc is a toss-up for you, yet you trusted him enough to motivate him last night? +1 for Kairyuu/Isacc scumpair...

...and Isacc claims scum. Figures.

I really was trying to scumhunt. I would have said the same things were I town.

That's what they all say

Yes, yes it is. But when the game is over, and I was right about the Armlx, MoS, MBL trio...I will be the one saying, I told you so.

No, you won't. The game will be over and I will have nailed 2 scum in a row for the first two days, and I will be saying "booyah, motherfuckers!". Actually, why wait?

Booyah, motherfuckers!

Oh and btw, before I die.

That would have been an epic fake-claim, had it been used at a better time. Perfect way to explain a kill if I got tracked/watched. So unfortunate.

I was even complimented on the awesomeness of the role by lord Kinetic himself =P

I lynch scum-inventors on sight.

Now if Issac truly was giving up he'd self hammer at this point but we shall see what happens. I really don't know if waiting for replacement matters seeing actions are supposedly not happening.

Actually, self voting would be anti-town. Ending the day too quickly is something scum usually go for. As I said, I'm being pro-town, believe it or not.

Not. You killed two power roles last night, and you keep trying to convince people I am scum after I nailed 2 scum. Neither of those actions are protown.

--------

MBL is being stupid, Kairyuu is overreacting by assuming everyone thinks he is cheating when it's only MBL goading him for no real reason. They both need to get real.

---------

I have motivated Albert, MBL. I will not be changing that. Why the hell would I motivate a claimed SK?

I don't know. Why did you motivate Isaac last night, after he spent the entire day trying to prevent us from lynching one of the Forsaken? And then when you saw all the kills today and realized it might be because you motivated a BG killer, why didn't you put a little pressure on Isacc?

(For the record, I don't think you were cheating, Kairyuu. I do have doubts about your alignment, but only in the game. )

This.

By the way, when I flip SK, it will be illogical to consider Kairyuu scum.

Mainly because, why would a mafia motivate someone who

wasn't

mafia with them, in favor of someone that could have been pro-town? It would be absolutely ridiculous/insane/retarded.

This is why, by simple logic, Kai is obvtown. If he was mafia, he would have motivated mafia, not a potential townie.

Also, I maintain that motivator is not a scum-role.

The answer is simple. Scum motivate non-scum, especially night 1, so they can confirm themselves later with a roleclaim.

Well, that was an eventful 5 pages.

Something sticks out:

If we're going to keep you around, we're going to need answers and QUICK.

Why would even consider keeping Isacc around?

I don't think we're in danger of the quick lynch, but if anyone wants me to temporarily unvote, let me know

I think MBL has the right of things.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

, until we get the last location claim.

With today's lynch out of the way, might as well move on to other business. I'm thinking Mr. Flay is our next scum.

ABR, if Mr. Flay is scum, chances are he can channel. Do you think he's more likely to be male or female?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I didn't assume hasdgfas had a power role. It should be pretty obvious that I typed that part of my post before it was revealed that Isacc didn't kill SK.

You'd be a channeler because most of the scum in the books could channel. It's possible you're not, but I don't think the discussion is invalid just because the possibility exists. It's also *possible* you are protown, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss you being scum, either.

As far as why I think you're scum, I've been voting/FoSing you since day 1. I dropped my vote off you to go after Fabian, remember? Your "jester" actions seem completely scum-motivated, your actions regarding Fabian lead me to believe you're a possible scumbuddy of his (passive defense, early attack on a premise that is easily dropped, etc), and calling out SK as an Aes Sedai doesn't sit well with me (including the subsequent backtracking when you got called on it).

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS

Dunno. Scum is scum.

Well, the difference being that since we are already lynching scum today, whatever channelers we have left should gentle/still Flay tonight, we just have to decide what he is first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Isacc

Mr. Flay tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And, officially...OWNED.

Also, what happened to twilight?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Mr. Flay

Obviously...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, MoS- you realize you were the hammer vote (because of spyrex screwing the votes or whatever other reason), did that cause anything else to happen?

Why would you suggest that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, MoS- you realize you were the hammer vote (because of spyrex screwing the votes or whatever other reason), did that cause anything else to happen?

Why would you suggest that?

Alright well then stop the BS, if you do not know what I am talking about your not an Aes Sedai like I thought you were. Because of an ability, I know your either Aes Sedai or scum. Therefore your scum.

Vote: MoS

After some research, I believe I know what you are talking about. If you are referring to the fact that Aes Sedai could not hammer in the mini, what makes you so sure it applies in this game?

For the second oath, this means you cannot hammer a lynch unless you know that the person being voted is scum. If you attempt to, your vote will simply not count. I will not reveal that your vote didn't count, I just won't count it.

I refer you to a post made by Kinetic in this game:

Roles are currently being distributed. Please confirm by PM. When greater than 60% of players confirm the thread will be unlocked.

Despite the role PM in the above post voting is not an ability in this game. It was removed at a late stage of the development to avoid some negative ability interactions and I forgot to remove it from that role PM since that post was created before that change was finalized.

The post above will stay as it is, however please disregard the Vote ability. I believe I made sure to remove it from all role PMs before they were sent out, however if I missed it and that ability is in your role PM please ignore it. Thank you.

Voting is no longer an ability, and as such may not apply under the second oath. I would have to be Aes Sedai to know for sure, but this is the conclusion I have come to, regardless.

Secondly, if you think I could be Aes Sedai, why are you trying so hard to out my role?

Yes they were. Ability in question was used twilight 1, not 2. I just read MoS as Aes Sedai till now.

I did not use any active abilities during the first twilight.

Sajin, be sure to consider the possibility that a player might play intentionally dumb on a specific topic so as not to give themselves away as Aes Sedai.

I have been playing this game so as to allow people to think I *could* be Aes Sedai, if they were to inspect my posts for it. All non-Aes Sedai protown players should do their best to act like they could be Aes Sedai, so the scum cannot find the true Aes Sedai. It does not help the town for protown players to contradict themselves in a way that would reveal they are not Aes Sedai.

Why did you not try to investigate which of the two he was until just now?

Perhaps you should reread yesterday. I could not do anything without claiming, now I know I have to and will do so after MoS gives me a solid answer to a few questions.

I don't really see a need for you to claim. I believe if you double-check what you think you know, you'll see that pursuing this discussion any further is pointless, especially since I just nailed 2 unrelated scum in a row (which therefore could not both have been bussing). I believe the matter is best left dropped, although I am sad that you rashly decided to bring it up in the first place. A better plan of action would have been to ask your questions without directly stating any conclusions you think you have made about my role, because whether or not they are true, they draw unnecessary scum attention to me.

Also from Mos: Direct answer please, Where did you sleep twilight 1. Please note that when he "claimed" his location of silo, all he did was put himself into the list and relist everyone.

I slept at the Silo. It was a random assignment.

ABR, for a general overview of the case against Flay, see this post (a reply to Flay):

I didn't assume hasdgfas had a power role. It should be pretty obvious that I typed that part of my post before it was revealed that Isacc didn't kill SK.

You'd be a channeler because most of the scum in the books could channel. It's possible you're not, but I don't think the discussion is invalid just because the possibility exists. It's also *possible* you are protown, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss you being scum, either.

As far as why I think you're scum, I've been voting/FoSing you since day 1. I dropped my vote off you to go after Fabian, remember? Your "jester" actions seem completely scum-motivated, your actions regarding Fabian lead me to believe you're a possible scumbuddy of his (passive defense, early attack on a premise that is easily dropped, etc), and calling out SK as an Aes Sedai doesn't sit well with me (including the subsequent backtracking when you got called on it).

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see any reason why we can't have more than one SK, especially in a game this size, but I can see logic behind Flay being Fabian's scumbuddy, too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: V/LA for the weekend.

[Mastermind of Sin]

caught up to the thread at this point, will be back sometime tonight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

back.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Anyone who tries to speedlynch you is getting my vote. I'd rather have a claim first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

SpyreX beat me to it.

I can kinda dig flay.
Personally would still love Mufasa.

This^^

Or Slicey. Or Benmage.

The difference being that Flay is actually likely scum, as opposed to random bandwagons on bad players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Anyone who tries to speedlynch you is getting my vote. I'd rather have a claim first.

Chillax, this sounds like one scum protecting another scum (note, I don’t think either of you are scum) double note, odd your defense of flay was some 15 mins after his post.

Uhh, what? How am I at all defending Mr. Flay? I'm the one leading the charge to get him lynched! I'm just not bloodthirsty scum who wants to quicklynch him before he can claim. We'll lynch him after he claims, most likely, but not before.

SpyreX beat me to it.

I can kinda dig flay.
Personally would still love Mufasa.

This^^

Or Slicey. Or Benmage.

Kairyuu you big baby quit playing so personally. What have I done scummy?

With the Mufasa vote I re-examined his votes in ISO. He gets claimed as being a useless player-style and agrees with it…lol… I haven’t really seen much scum hunting or participation from him. Though I’ve agreed with some of his little one-liners, mainly his ideas on Isaac and his doubt of Spryex gentling….which I still share similar doubt.

Looking at JVW in ISO for ABR’s attack on him. I noticed jvw questions ABR’s sincerity in possible being Black or DF because of possible lies. ABR takes this quite personally. I really don’t see any glaring scumness from him…99% by ABR seemed like an extreme statement. Sure he complains for lack of time and has been less and less helpful… Much like Mufasa.

@Kison. You FoS Kairyuu, can you expand upon this. Do you still think there may be reasons to be suspicious of him?

I don’t really know what to do with the direction of the game so perhaps some additional information from all can give us leads.

1. At this moment, are there any players that you believe are town? If so, why?
2. At this moment, are there any players that you suspect are mafia/df? If so, why?
3. Would you consider vote for no-lynching today? Why or why not?

FoS: Benmage

Don't like the questions, seems like a scum ploy to me. Definitely don't like how no lynch is thrown in so casually. We shouldn't even be thinking about something like that at this stage in the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS Can you expand on how the questions are a scum ploy? I've been away for a few days, semi-active for nearly a week and little has happened. The game is becoming stagnant and i thought this would be a good way to rekindle discussion.

The questions where taken/edited from Charrat a player from Newbie Game 720 (post on page 3). He was town. They opened up a lot of discussion, opinions, and gave people who a generally lurking a reason to post.

I didn't really think twice about the no-lynch 3rd aspect as it was apart of the original questions. And why is no lynch such a cry fro scum? if we really are clueless today wouldn't it be better than a mislynch and the chance of two townies gone? Note, I am not for a no lynch as I'd actually probably be more for something like a policy-lynch... lynching a lurker or someone who is clearly not helpful.

Why would we no lynch or policy-lynch when it's so obvious that Flay is scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

The fact that you would even deign to suggest that we should base our lynches off who is making the "one-liner" posts shows that you either aren't really looking for scum or you don't know what you're talking about.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, either I'm confused or you are, or I'm misinterpreting what your saying. I said Flay doesn't make "one-liner" posts.

Right, and you used that as a reason not to be voting Flay, which is a direct implication that you think people who make "one-liner" posts are scummy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, either I'm confused or you are, or I'm misinterpreting what your saying. I said Flay doesn't make "one-liner" posts.

Right, and you used that as a reason not to be voting Flay, which is a direct implication that you think people who make "one-liner" posts are scummy.

Not entirely true, because I also said that good posts/contributing doesn't automatically make you town. But yes, I'd much rather see a "one-liner", non-contributor go.

Yes, I know you hedged your bets with that statement. That doesn't mean anything to me. The point is, you admit that you want to lynch non-contributors rather than searching for scum, and that's what I have a problem with.

Also, realized I forgot to make it red:

FoS: Benmage

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ahh, but we've got plenty of targets so this bespeaks stalling.

this.

Why are we talking about no lynch and non-contributors when we have plenty of scummy suspects? Benmage is avoiding them a bit too much for my liking.

[Mastermind of Sin]

moar flay lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote

Response hasn't motivated me to pursue this line of play.

who were you voting?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still want a

claim

from Flay before we think about moving in for the kill.

[Mastermind of Sin]

whoever hasn't weighed in on the Flay situation needs to do so NOW.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think you need to confirm your ability. Let me think of a situation that could actually confirm it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Faraday, the only problem with that plan is it's only useful if Flay catches scum, and we would need to lynch the OTHER person to confirm his ability. I want to come up with a situation where Flay has to confirm or deny a statement that does NOT have an inherently obvious answer yet is still confirmable by someone who knows the answer.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm fairly sure Kairyuu is town, so is there any sort of statement he could make that we don't already know the answer to? We already know he's not Aes Sedai, so we don't have to worry about him lying.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait a minute.

1) Flay-scum "lie-detects" MBL-scum, Flay is magically "confirmed" town by MBL.
2) Flay-scum "lie-detects" MBL-town, Flay just answers that MBL is truthful because why would a townie lie about his sleeping location.
3) Flay-town actually lie-detects MBL-scum (who just volunteered to be detected, by the way), Flay says MBL is telling the truth (because why would he volunteer to out himself as a liar about his sleeping locations) and MBL is confirmed town.
4) Flay-town actually lie-detects MBL-town, MBL is telling the truth.

How does this teach us anything about anything?

Well actually, it doesn't say anything about MBL one way or the other if Flay is town, unless MBL says Flay is lying and Flay comes up town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flay use your ability on Spyrex to see if he told the truth about him being gentled.

This.

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA till Tuesday, then V/LA from Thursday to Monday next week.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flay, if there is anything you've been holding back about your role, consider this your last chance to reveal it. I don't believe your claim, and if your next post doesn't convince me you are telling the truth, I'm going to lynch you. After that, no amount of backpedaling or changing your story is going to make me change my vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As for why I don't believe Flay's claim, it seems sketchy to me that he gets results on an entire post, especially since there could be subjective statements in it. I don't think Kinetic would have designed a role to work like that. It seems more likely that he would have you check one statement rather than an entire post.

Flay, claim your Day 1 target and results before it is too late.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As for why I don't believe Flay's claim, it seems sketchy to me that he gets results on an entire post, especially since there could be subjective statements in it. I don't think Kinetic would have designed a role to work like that. It seems more likely that he would have you check one statement rather than an entire post.

Sounds to me like you just volunteered to have me lie-detect you today. Or are you panicked scum trying to kill off a role that looks overpowered to your side?

UnFoS: Slicey, FoS: MoS

- you've been accusing me of incompetence ever since you entered the game. I didn't think the role sounds reasonable either when I got it, but why would I claim something so complex and easily falsifiable if I could make the simpler claim you're theorizing? Think, man!

And I'm not going to claim the rest of the role's details just on your say-so; doing so might nerf the ability irretrievably.

Flay, claim your Day 1 target and results before it is too late.

I will before it's too late, but now is not that time, just on your threat. And I've already told you the result; I know someone isn't lying about their win condition being pro-town.

Lie detect this, then.

I know information about Flay's role and/or actions that directly implicates him as possible scum, information he did NOT reveal to the town.

If he was protown, he would have revealed this information. He lied to us when he claimed, and we should lynch him now. I gave him a chance to come clean, and he did not. As such, I no longer have any reason to believe that the information I have *could* come from a protown person.

No, I do not intend to reveal the nature of this information, because not only will it help Flay-scum try to weasel out of being lynched, but it will help other scum gauge how much of a threat I am to them. Lynch Flay, and you will see I am correct.

Flay, I will only ask this one more time:

Who did you target Day 1?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yup, Flay's claim doesn't mesh with my information. He is lying to us. Lynch him, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To be fair, Kison, the posts you quoted don't contradict each other, because Flay is talking about using a post that contains truth AND lies to confirm himself. Day 1, he presumably got all truthful statements from ABR. Regardless, though, all of that is probably a lie, and you should still be voting him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To be fair, Kison, the posts you quoted don't contradict each other, because Flay is talking about using a post that contains truth AND lies to confirm himself. Day 1, he presumably got all truthful statements from ABR. Regardless, though, all of that is probably a lie, and you should still be voting him.

Hmm looking back I can see how they don’t contradict one another. I suppose I focused on the bolded and overread the other.

Unvote

P.S. I really want to lynch Benmage tomorrow.

Wtf is this coming from?

Why would you unvote Flay just because Kison didn't actually catch a slip? Have you been paying attention to *anything* I have said about Flay?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think, as far as importance goes, "MOS claims Flay is lying about his role actions" is probably about 100 times more important then "Kirson thought there was some kind of misunderstanding".

Since when did MoS become confirmed town? And I thought those statements were for Flay to do his lie-detector on, I’ll reread the post by MoS, but I thought he was hinting at being a cop/some-sort-of-investigative-role, and waiting for flay to do his claimed role, and than counter him if Flay was mistaken…isn’t that what we’ve been waiting on?

No, I'm not waiting for Flay's response. Think about it. Do you really think it makes sense for me to

seriously

ask Flay to lie-detect me when I state that Flay has lied to us about his role? I think it was pretty obvious that I was being sarcastic. I don't care WHAT Flay says about his so-called "lie detection" ability, because I still believe he is scum. We should be voting him because there is concrete evidence contradicting his claim, not waiting around for supposed posting contradictions that aren't really good tells in the first place.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, I'm not waiting for Flay's response. Think about it. Do you really think it makes sense for me to

seriously

ask Flay to lie-detect me when I state that Flay has lied to us about his role? I think it was pretty obvious that I was being sarcastic. I don't care WHAT Flay says about his so-called "lie detection" ability,

because I still believe he is scum

. We should be voting him because there is concrete evidence contradicting his claim, not waiting around for supposed posting contradictions that aren't really good tells in the first place.

You believe him to be scum, or you know him to be scum? I think it is a waste to out a cop role, but this seems like what your claiming.

No need to respond to the cop claim or whatnot. At this point there is some pretty substantial evidence against Flay, and I'm willing to vote him. I'm withholding because I am interested to hear about his results...for whatever it may do...That and we have such a high rate of inactivity at the moment it is deplorable??

Fuzzy, Mufasa,Goat, Ooz, MBL, Seraphim whats up guys??

On the grounds that it makes no sense to help scum figure out whether or not I am Aes Sedai, I decline to make a definitive statement about whether or not I *know* Flay to be scum. It is enough to say what has already been said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What he said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Flay has been lynched, will update from my home computer asap. Daybreak actions asap please.

Game Rules:

<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting. So, Flay is still alive, but we can't stop his death at this point, so for all intensive purposes he's just a talking zombie? That seems rather pointless.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Agreed, Faraday, but it's just rather pointless. Also, it seems kinda stacked against scum, because if they *were* to successfully lynch someone before that person could reveal certain info the mafia were trying to cover up, the dead person would still reveal it. It kinda takes a lot of strategy out of the game, imo.

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA until Monday, then LA Monday-Thursday while we're filming the movie, since I dunno how much free time I will have.

[Mastermind of Sin]

First off, we need to examine everyone who stayed off the Flay wagon until I was forced to reveal that I had information on him. His lynch had ridiculously little traction, and I think scum were running diversions and staying away from Flay to try and keep it from happening.

Secondly, I slept at the Silo.

I also agree with Albert about the bussing. I would not be surprised in the least if MoS was scum and used Mr. Flay as a scapegoat to make himself look good.

Did I also use Isacc and Fabian as a scapegoat to make myself look good? Nice try...

I'm not jiving with MBL's conspiracy theories. They are a bit too involved for me to believe.

First off, If you notice the difference between how I claim I slept at the river and how Kairyuu did it is very different. I have no problem claiming I slept at the river because a) I am Town b) I feel confident that Kairyuu is scum c) I was randomly generated to sleep at the river therefore d) I believe that the notes are plants and the best way to find out if they are true is by lynching Kairyuu. He really wasn't claimed town by anyone and he looked very suspicious in the Fabian and Issac relationships.

Vote Kairyuu

Unless the scum are afraid there are roles out there that know who slept where, in which case the only thing you could do is confidently claim your sleeping location. Perhaps the person leaving the note knows who slept in that location, but if they were to reveal it publicly they would be outed, so they can't do more than that.

It is advisable to act as if the message wasn't there. Its obvious that the scum are producing it.

This discussion is unavailing. I believe Kairyuu is scum, and Kairyuu was at the river if we follow your logic. Let's hang him.

Vote Kairyuu

Are you confident enough to risk being lynched as a liar should Kairyuu come up town?

When did I submit my roleblock or when do I? I submit before twilight, OGB's actions involving buddying with mr flay before his lynch lead me to roleblocking him.

Why did you not submit your sleeping location at the same time as you sent your twilight action?

Oh, I see someone else asked this, and I don't really like your answer.

Night one I wagered on Spryex and Shadow knight
Night two I wagered on ABR and Kairyuu and I occupied MoS
Night Three I wagered on OGB and I occupied OGB

Can you please explain all of your target choices?

I think I might actually buy that Mufasa is a survivor, since that would explain the note.

Also, the hooker flavor fits with being a gambler, but he might be getting some help from his scumbuddies, but Flay and Fabian are already dead, so how many more could he have, unless he's part of a second group? Based on nightkills, I'm guessing one scumgroup, probably about 5 people, so 3 scum left at this point.

Ok, Mufasa basically claimed scum now, if he was trying to help the town he wouldn't have self hammered. I don't like JVW's vote AFTER the hammer attempt, which could have helped end the day far too early.

My role pm does not specify what types of actions. It simply tells me that the player I choose gets another action at Night.

Albert is scum. He slipped up when he revealed that kills are Daybreak actions. We lynch him tomorrow after we take care of the claimed scum that is mufasa.

My role pm does not specify what types of actions. It simply tells me that the player I choose gets another action at Night.

Albert is scum. He slipped up when he revealed that kills are Daybreak actions. We lynch him tomorrow after we take care of the claimed scum that is mufasa.

I feel, I have to agree, especially with that meager defense.

Interesting theory, but I'm not buying it yet, since ABR's explanations for his conclusions seem to make sense.

Mmk. Kinetic confirmed that I can only motivate actions occuring after my own (which is a Twilight Action). Therefore, I can only motivate Daybreak actions.

This supports ABR being town still.

Ok, I'm caught up now, but I'm still super V/LA this week (busy Friday and Saturday, too). I'll hold off on my vote until we get all location claims from last night.

[Mastermind of Sin]

fuzzylightning's computer died, hence his inactivity, but I agree he needs to be prodded.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, please answer my question.

It is advisable to act as if the message wasn't there. Its obvious that the scum are producing it.

This discussion is unavailing. I believe Kairyuu is scum, and Kairyuu was at the river if we follow your logic. Let's hang him.

Vote Kairyuu

Are you confident enough to risk being lynched as a liar should Kairyuu come up town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

SpyreX, Faraday, Kison, Benmage, armlx, Slicey, Mufasa, Setael/OGB all voted for Flay (in that order) AFTER I had been forced to reveal that I had information.

-SpyreX was helping test Flay's claim before that, but hadn't commented much one way or the other on Flay's scumminess.

-Faraday had been on the Flay wagon earlier, and made a very good post about the top suspects of the day.

FOS: Faraday, OozingGolfball

Any reason for this?

Ok well I've read up. I don't see a lot against JVW I mean he's not particularly townie but I can't see him as 99% scum like Albert says.

I think the case on Flay is a better one so I will

Vote: Mr. Flay

Other things of note:

Mufasa is pretty much useless. His meta supports this, he's claimed doc in an open game when vanilla before, and done numerous..questionable things so I'm not sure how easy it is to get a read on him. His play here is actually less erratic than some of his other games, one of which I'm talking about is ongoing.

Benmage's questions are certaintly odd, I do agree the pace seems to have dropped this game day though, for whatever reason. But doing stuff to "provoke reactions" or something isn't a good idea.

I continue to like MOS, and I think Kairyuu is probably town too due to his claim.

Slicey re: 1409: Is this the tar standard tell? If so he's said that untill one of the people has flipped it's not that useful, unless there's a mutual chainsaw defense going on.

So yeh kinda caught up now and all that, thank God.

This puts him in a pretty good light, I think.

-Kison was very ambiguous in regards to Mr. Flay, and made small statements of disbelieving his claim but didn't really act on it, parroting other people's ideas on how to test the role claim. He also finally placed his vote upon digging up a supposed contradiction that was actually rather weak, instead of all the other evidence we had.

-Benmage went one step further, placing his vote based on Kison's bad evidence and then unvoting when it was debunked, completely ignoring the real evidence against Mr. Flay. He also defended Flay at one point against Slicey's case, trying to deflect it by concluding that it wasn't enough to lynch someone. This post also sprang up as cause for concern:

You swear Flay to be scum. ABR is 99% sure jvw is scum... others wanna see Mufasa hung, who should we follow?

Honestly looking back at Flay, other than his odd continual tangent about Jester possibility his posts are generally pretty good, comprehensive and aren't simply one-liners, he isn't high on my 'scum-radar' yet. (I'm also not suggesting that good posting/contributing clears you from the possibility of scum, I just think there are much better cases out there than Flay.)

I don't like the defense of Flay, and I am also concerned by his lack of comment on JVW or Mufasa after the first statement, especially since Mufasa is also likely scum.

-armlx hasn't said much all game, and he did say Flay's claim was scummy, but he never commented on the case at all, and he simply voted Flay after I had confirmed him scum, adding nothing to the discussion.

-Setael/OGB did not say much at all before placing the hammer and later being replaced, but one post does give him a townie point:

You swear Flay to be scum. ABR is 99% sure jvw is scum... others wanna see Mufasa hung, who should we follow?

Honestly looking back at Flay, other than his odd continual tangent about Jester possibility his posts are generally pretty good, comprehensive and aren't simply one-liners, he isn't high on my 'scum-radar' yet. (I'm also not suggesting that good posting/contributing clears you from the possibility of scum, I just think there are much better cases out there than Flay.)

Do you have any other Flay defense besides his content? I've only seen him adequately respond to the attack on his jester discussion, and he hasn't addressed almost every other part of slicey's case.

Of these people, Benmage is the most likely scumpartner to Flay, followed by Kison, armlx, SpyreX, Setael, and then Faraday (who is very likely not scum with Flay at all). This analysis would be more conclusive if combined with an analysis of their Fabian/Mufasa interactions. Something similar should also be done for people who stayed off the Flay wagon altogether.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, please answer my question.

It is advisable to act as if the message wasn't there. Its obvious that the scum are producing it.

This discussion is unavailing. I believe Kairyuu is scum, and Kairyuu was at the river if we follow your logic. Let's hang him.

Vote Kairyuu

Are you confident enough to risk being lynched as a liar should Kairyuu come up town?

No.

Then why did you make such definitive statements as Aes Sedai? Saying that it is obvious scum are producing the note leaves you no way out, as you are stating it to be fact. So far, the note has led to two lynches of non-town players, has it not?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I changed my mind. He was obvious scum, then with new information on JVW, he became less suspect and JVW and Setael moved up the scummy list.

What about your comment on the notes, though?

[Mastermind of Sin]

If MBL is scum, he'll simply lie about his sleeping place. If he's town, he'll tell us the truth when he gets back. I don't think it's *that* imperative that we wait for him. However:

Mod: Please prod/replace fuzzylightning during the twilight phase. If he doesn't post by the time this twilight is over, I would strongly suggest replacing him right away.

ABR, don't avoid the question.

ABR, please answer my question.

It is advisable to act as if the message wasn't there. Its obvious that the scum are producing it.

This discussion is unavailing. I believe Kairyuu is scum, and Kairyuu was at the river if we follow your logic. Let's hang him.

Vote Kairyuu

Are you confident enough to risk being lynched as a liar should Kairyuu come up town?

I changed my mind. He was obvious scum, then with new information on JVW, he became less suspect and JVW and Setael moved up the scummy list.

What about your comment on the notes, though?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm here and I have a good (protown) reason for not claiming my sleeping location. See you guys in the morning.

No, claim it now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, uhh, are you declaring Mufasa lynched, since the VC says he has 10 votes and it says 10 votes to lynch?

See italicized at the bottom of the post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, who do we lynch next? I'm liking Benmage and Kison as possible scum. I'll have to look into more detail regarding the Fabian lynch, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hey, I've got an idea, how about I tell the town who the scum are before the scum manage to kill me because I've already nailed at least 3 anti-town players in this game?

I'm seeing pretty much nothing promoting Kison as scum (pray tell, what have you noticed that I haven't?), but Benmage is a pretty good choice in my opinion. Albert also is going to have quite a bit to answer for come morning, so he would also be a good choice methinks.

SpyreX, Faraday, Kison, Benmage, armlx, Slicey, Mufasa, Setael/OGB all voted for Flay (in that order) AFTER I had been forced to reveal that I had information.

-SpyreX was helping test Flay's claim before that, but hadn't commented much one way or the other on Flay's scumminess.

-Faraday had been on the Flay wagon earlier, and made a very good post about the top suspects of the day.

FOS: Faraday, OozingGolfball

Any reason for this?

Ok well I've read up. I don't see a lot against JVW I mean he's not particularly townie but I can't see him as 99% scum like Albert says.

I think the case on Flay is a better one so I will

Vote: Mr. Flay

Other things of note:

Mufasa is pretty much useless. His meta supports this, he's claimed doc in an open game when vanilla before, and done numerous..questionable things so I'm not sure how easy it is to get a read on him. His play here is actually less erratic than some of his other games, one of which I'm talking about is ongoing.

Benmage's questions are certaintly odd, I do agree the pace seems to have dropped this game day though, for whatever reason. But doing stuff to "provoke reactions" or something isn't a good idea.

I continue to like MOS, and I think Kairyuu is probably town too due to his claim.

Slicey re: 1409: Is this the tar standard tell? If so he's said that untill one of the people has flipped it's not that useful, unless there's a mutual chainsaw defense going on.

So yeh kinda caught up now and all that, thank God.

This puts him in a pretty good light, I think.

-Kison was very ambiguous in regards to Mr. Flay, and made small statements of disbelieving his claim but didn't really act on it, parroting other people's ideas on how to test the role claim. He also finally placed his vote upon digging up a supposed contradiction that was actually rather weak, instead of all the other evidence we had.

-Benmage went one step further, placing his vote based on Kison's bad evidence and then unvoting when it was debunked, completely ignoring the real evidence against Mr. Flay. He also defended Flay at one point against Slicey's case, trying to deflect it by concluding that it wasn't enough to lynch someone. This post also sprang up as cause for concern:

You swear Flay to be scum. ABR is 99% sure jvw is scum... others wanna see Mufasa hung, who should we follow?

Honestly looking back at Flay, other than his odd continual tangent about Jester possibility his posts are generally pretty good, comprehensive and aren't simply one-liners, he isn't high on my 'scum-radar' yet. (I'm also not suggesting that good posting/contributing clears you from the possibility of scum, I just think there are much better cases out there than Flay.)

I don't like the defense of Flay, and I am also concerned by his lack of comment on JVW or Mufasa after the first statement, especially since Mufasa is also likely scum.

-armlx hasn't said much all game, and he did say Flay's claim was scummy, but he never commented on the case at all, and he simply voted Flay after I had confirmed him scum, adding nothing to the discussion.

-Setael/OGB did not say much at all before placing the hammer and later being replaced, but one post does give him a townie point:

You swear Flay to be scum. ABR is 99% sure jvw is scum... others wanna see Mufasa hung, who should we follow?

Honestly looking back at Flay, other than his odd continual tangent about Jester possibility his posts are generally pretty good, comprehensive and aren't simply one-liners, he isn't high on my 'scum-radar' yet. (I'm also not suggesting that good posting/contributing clears you from the possibility of scum, I just think there are much better cases out there than Flay.)

Do you have any other Flay defense besides his content? I've only seen him adequately respond to the attack on his jester discussion, and he hasn't addressed almost every other part of slicey's case.

Of these people, Benmage is the most likely scumpartner to Flay, followed by Kison, armlx, SpyreX, Setael, and then Faraday (who is very likely not scum with Flay at all). This analysis would be more conclusive if combined with an analysis of their Fabian/Mufasa interactions. Something similar should also be done for people who stayed off the Flay wagon altogether.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Mufasa

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Mufasa

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well shit, I didn't expect both of them to be Aes Sedai...things are starting to make a little more sense, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Albert:

And Kairyuu who doesn't believe in Black Ajah is in complete contradiction to attacking me. So scummy.

I do not think there are Black Ajah Aes Sedai. I may be wrong, but that point is moot. I do not believe you to be Aes Sedai at all, but rather plain old scum. Hence, not contradicting anything.

I think it's pretty obvious that ABR *has* to be some form of Aes Sedai. His knowledge of the role satisfied the other confirmed dead Aes Sedai when they were claiming, and I believe he claimed details that non-Aes Sedai scum would not have known, based on SK's reaction. It is completely illogical to believe ABR to be non-Aes Sedai scum at this point, as that is the LEAST likely possibility.

I slept in the Silo last night.

Vote: Benmage

I still think he is Flay's scumbuddy, I will have to check to see how he acted around Fabian.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok, so Benmage's predecessor didn't say much at all about Fabian, and Benmage replaced after I had outed Fabian as scum AND had SK's claim to back it up, so there is no way he would not have thrown his partner under the bus. As such, Benmage's actions regarding Fabian are unfortunately inconclusive either way, but I still think his actions regarding Flay are hella suspicious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, where did you sleep last night?

Also, I think it's time you tell us who you have targeted each night. If you are town, you know that this information can help us more than it helps scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MBL, claim your sleeping locations for the last two twilights.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nope. Not unless I'm about to be lynched.

That can be facilitated.

Unvote, Vote: MBL, FoS: Benmage

[Mastermind of Sin]

Calling me scummy isn't going to get you anywhere, MBL.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, you still need to claim your sleeping location, too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You really think scum would draw attention to themselves this way?

I've stated plainly that I'm pro-town and have a pro-town reason for not claiming my sleeping location. You can choose to believe me or not, and even if you suspect I'm town you can still choose to be a control freak or not, but at least use your damned heads to figure out whether or not to trust me on this. I was third on Flay and second on Mufasa. I was the person who got Isacc to confess, and I've slammed Kaiyruu for information. Kaiyruu--the guy many of you suspect right now. I've done other pro-town things I won't go into detail about, though if you read my posts you might be able to figure them out.

MBL, I'm afraid to break it to you, but you are not the Savior. You are not the person who is going to singlehandedly pick out all the scum. You had nothing to do with the Fabian lynch, which I alone pushed for after everyone started buying his fake claim. The Isacc lynch was started by me during the twilight of the Fabian lynch, and it further compounded by Yos2 and Slicey, and the Flay lynch was started by me and finished by me alone. In fact, you stated the following about Mr. Flay:

I definitely don't think you're scumpartners with Fabian, but if there's another scumteam, you're a strong candidate.

So given that you've been less than effective at helping us find scum so far this game, why don't you own up to the fact that there are other people who can help catch scum if you claim your sleeping location and do it instead of whining about how your sleeping location is so goddamned important to be kept secret all the time. If the best you can claim is that you were the second vote on a freaking

survivor

, don't expect that to impress me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

For the record, I am 100% sure that ABR told the truth about his role and what he has done with it so far this game. The only way he could be scum is if he was scum with that role.

Sajin, do you trust ABR?

TSS, please claim your sleeping location for each twilight so far this game. We are missing some due to your predecessor's lurking.

Since when does trendy make it right, safe, or pro-town? Only scum aren't wary of being shorn...

It's trendy to claim locations. We've been doing it ever since. Everyone is but you. Why weren't you earlier hesitant?

I suppose once you've flagrantly demanded a roleclaim, any other forms of rolefishing don't really merit additional accusations of scumminess.

Benmage, you seem to have more WoT knowledge than the rest of the players in this game put together. Why don't you tell us how we're going to wrap this game up? Are there two scumteams or one, based on the nightkills? If there are Black Ajah, how'll they be caught? Why are Albert, Sajin, and the great white spyhunter MoS still alive right now while Ajah are dropping dead left and right?

Scum are afraid of the doc protect.

MBL, answer me this: If you do not claim your sleeping location now, will you be claiming it later?

Claimed Twilight 1 sleep locs

Barn

Faraday
Albert B. Rampage
Tuberkulos/Goatrevolt

Blacksmith

Kairyuu
Isacc
MrBuddyLee

River

Benmage
Yosarian2
Sajin
fuzzylightning
Slicey

Silo

Seraphim
julienvonwolfe
Mastermind of Sin

Wiindmill

Mr. Flay
MacavityLock
Mufasa
Kison

Stables

SpyreX
Myndrunner

This list is missing some players, I believe. Can someone fill in the blanks? If you or your predecessor are not on this list, please fill in where you slept Twilight 1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Blacksmith:

MacavityLock
SpyreX
Sajin
Albert B. Rampage

River:

Moratorium
Setael

Windmill:

Benmage

Barn:

Knight of Cydonia

Stables:

Kairyuu

Silo:

Mastermind of Sin
julienvonwolfe
thesilentspeaker

The following people still need to claim:

Yosarian2 - has not posted today (last post May 31)
armlx - has not posted today (last post June 2)
Goatrevolt - 1 post today
MrBuddyLee - refuses to claim

[Mastermind of Sin]

Benmage, I'm glad to see you heeded your scumpartners and decided to drop your folly. It was making you look really bad.

MBL, answer me this: If you do not claim your sleeping location now, will you be claiming it later?

There may very well come a point when it makes more sense to. I'm absolutely open to discussion on the topic--for example, if we think we've narrowed a nightkill to a specific location and without my confirmation we can't. Or if I can help confirm which note is truthful. I'll be happier to answer a specific question about my sleeping location when the answer is "no", which will be the more common answer from me, so don't hesitate to ask a question about where I did NOT sleep if it'll make or break your case. The odds are pretty good that I can answer safely.

But if we ask you where you didn't sleep, doesn't that just eventually tell us where you did sleep? If you refuse to say no, isn't that the same as saying yes?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like people to speculate on which kill methods they think could have involved the use of the One Power. I think incineration could, and dismemberment could as well, although not always (since some were likely Isacc's kills). I'm not so sure that strangling and poisoning are One Power kill methods.

Also, I think we should try to figure out which dead people could use the One Power. Here are my guesses:

Non-OP users:
Hasdgfas
Isacc (are Gholams creatures innate with the One Power that are just also immune to others using it on them?)
Slicey (any reason the Royal Guard would use the One Power?)
Mufasa
Knight of Cydonia (he claimed the ability to block all actions for one twilight, but did that involve OP?)

OP users:

Shadow Knight
xxFabianxx
Mr. Flay
Kison
Faraday

What do you guys think about this list?

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, you claimed that Aes Sedai can detect Saidar, to and from their sleeping locations, right?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would I? I blocked Mor and there was a NK.

There were four NKs the previous night. There were two last night. You didn't see anything the least bit odd about that?

But if we ask you where you didn't sleep, doesn't that just eventually tell us where you did sleep? If you refuse to say no, isn't that the same as saying yes?

One specifically-targeted question that's significantly likely to be answered "no" poses much less risk than me directly claiming my locations every night. If you need a "no" from me to make a case, you'll probably get it.

Ok, well I'll hold off on my question for now until I have figured a few more things out. It will probably come today, however.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ABR, I don't know if you've already done this, but since it seems you can detect uses of Saidar, you and your Aes Sedai partner should go over your detections from each night. Combine them with the claimed sleeping locations to figure out who can use Saidar and who can't, as well as who might have targeted who each night. I wouldn't necessarily post that list publicly yet, but if you and your partner can create those lists, that will probably help you figure out roles better, and both of you will have that information in case one of you dies. Assuming that you and your partner have not been sleeping in the same location each night, you should have a lot of information about the game so far. For the most part, scum are not willing to lie about their sleeping locations, because there are ways to find out about those lies fairly easily.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS What about you dude. It seemed like you did some sort of investigation thing that outted/confirmed Flay. Who else can you confirm. You'd think scum would aim at these confirmed town PR's?? Especially this cop-like one. So before you die MoS, how about sharing other leads.

I see no reason to answer questions that are going to help you, scum.

MBL: Did you sleep in the barn, yes or no?

List of sleeping locations: River, river, barn, silo, in that order.

Why did you not ask about the Blacksmith or the Windmill?

MBL, I'd suggest not answering this question just now.

Everyone: Please give your opinion on my post earlier.

I would like people to speculate on which kill methods they think could have involved the use of the One Power. I think incineration could, and dismemberment could as well, although not always (since some were likely Isacc's kills). I'm not so sure that strangling and poisoning are One Power kill methods.

Also, I think we should try to figure out which dead people could use the One Power. Here are my guesses:

Non-OP users:
Hasdgfas
Isacc (are Gholams creatures innate with the One Power that are just also immune to others using it on them?)
Slicey (any reason the Royal Guard would use the One Power?)
Mufasa
Knight of Cydonia (he claimed the ability to block all actions for one twilight, but did that involve OP?)

OP users:

Shadow Knight
xxFabianxx
Mr. Flay
Kison
Faraday

What do you guys think about this list?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos2, claim your sleeping location please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Honestly, I'm wondering if someone motivated whoever has the ability "post fake notes at the start of each day" and let/forced them to use their ability twice, since this is the first time we've seen 2 notes in the same day.

Fixed by Mod

*coughkairyuucough*

Blacksmith:

MacavityLock
SpyreX
Sajin
Albert B. Rampage

River:

Moratorium
Setael

Windmill:

Benmage

Barn:

Knight of Cydonia
Yosarian2

Stables:

Kairyuu

Silo:

Mastermind of Sin
julienvonwolfe
thesilentspeaker

The following people still need to claim:

armlx - has not posted today (last post June 2)
Goatrevolt - 1 post today
MrBuddyLee - refuses to claim

Mod: Can we get a prod on armlx?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Can you delete the botched quote tag in the last post? It wasn't supposed to be a quote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Err, total fail, the first botched tag is supposed to be a quote of Yosarian2, the second botched tag isn't supposed to exist at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kairyuu, who did you target last night?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unfortunately, I think Benmage is probably telling the truth. I also think we have a shitload of Aes Sedai in this game, given the number of deaths so far and the ones that keep claiming.

Unvote: Benmage

I don't intend to explain why you couldn't bond me, even if I know.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why didn't you ask only about the Barn, then? You asked about 4 locations, but not the other two...

[Mastermind of Sin]

MBL: Did you sleep in the barn, yes or no?

List of sleeping locations: River, river, barn, silo, in that order.

Sorry, I just realized that I misread this. I thought you were asking MBL to answer the location question on those for locations, didn't realize that was your claim of sleeping locations.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Taken from Setael's list:

Claimed Twilight 1 sleep locations -

Barn
Faraday
Albert B. Rampage
Tuberkulos/Goatrevolt

Blacksmith
Kairyuu
Isacc
MrBuddyLee

River
Benmage
Yosarian2
Sajin
fuzzylightning (now TSS)
Slicey

Silo
Seraphim (now KoS)
julienvonwolfe
Mastermind of Sin

Windmill
Mr. Flay
MacavityLock
Mufasa
Kison

Stables
SpyreX
Myndrunner (now Setael)

Missing:
armlx
Moratorium

armlx and Moratorium need to remind us where they slept for the first Twilight, since Setael missed it and I don't feel like going back to look up whether or not they claimed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Is it at all weird that we have at least three green Ajah?

Three? I only count 2, one dead and one claimed.

Am I correct in guessing that poisoning, strangling and dismemberment aren't uses of Saidar? What would actually be uses of Saidar besides the incineration death we've seen?

We only know the final cause of death, not how it was achieved, so I don't think we can say for sure that they weren't uses of Saidar. As far as other uses of Saidar go, I'd guess that some Aes Sedai probably have abilities that are powered by their ability to use Saidar. Certainly, every detected use of Saidar isn't necessarily a kill attempt.

Should Albert claim saidar detections for him and his partner?

I don't think that claiming detections helps the town as much as it helps the scum at this point. I think Benmage has actually hurt the town by claiming his own detections so explicitly.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos2 claimed Barn, I added him to my last list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Since you're outed, might as well full claim now.

I believe I may have figured out Sajin's role, so we'll see if his claim matches my deductions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, is it really necessary for Sajin to claim his full role? I could maybe see him claiming color, but I see no reason for the scum to be informed as to his abilities.

Vote: ABR

That was some really suspicious rolefishing for something we didn't need to know...and it almost worked.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, I might as well get this out here now, before I end up dead or anything. I have reason to believe that Mr. Flay and Fabian were the only members of their mafia group. I didn't think it through before while I suspected Benmage, but I am now almost certain that there are no more Survivor mafia. I think we are looking for scum whose groups are completely untouched at this point, most likely Black Ajah, as hard as that is to swallow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think that claiming detections helps the town as much as it helps the scum at this point. I think Benmage has actually hurt the town by claiming his own detections so explicitly.

Wrong, this can help us town/AS find other AS.

How is that a good thing AT ALL? We don't WANT to out other Aes Sedai...

Unvote

for now, I believe the claim. But I am still suspicious of Benmage.

If you’re not scum, you’re a retard. I’m hoping its just that you’re scum.

Well due to both Mcavitylock saying he is not Benmages partner in 2133 and Benmages detection results cross referenced with location claims, I am outed. Thanks, Benmage. I told you NOT to be very careful with my detection results and instead you rush them. What is up with that?

You said I could claim you anyways… I don’t think it outted you as badly as you’re saying… Did everyone else auto assume it was Sajin just due to detections?

Yes, you forced Sajin to be outed.

I'd say no to revealing ABR's detections, though I could see how that point would be debatable.

Of course you’d say this to guard your scum buddy. Cause ABR will probably get caught in a lie when he attempts to claim his detections. So Let’s see the detections ABR.

Why would ABR lie about his detections? He would have to be retarded to do so, and there is absolutely no advantage for ABR-scum to lie about the detections. What would he gain from doing so? You assume that because he might be scum that he's going to lie, and that's just bad logic.

Unvote Vote ABR

though I still think ML is way more obvious scum. Has he attacked a scum yet?? NO!!! Only me, WAY more confirmed town than ABR Kiayruu of MoS ever was.

I'm pretty sure I'm way more confirmed town than you will ever be. I've already nailed 3 scum players in a row, what have you done to confirm yourself?

ABR wanting Sajin full claim is comical. Of course he's my partner and AS, you just want to know his abilities to see if you should kill him or me tonight. You're scum.

I agree with this. ABR went way up on my scumdar, and I think he's probably Black Ajah.

My claim, detections, undeniable night actions, now supported by a partner...quit while your ahead. You or ABR hang today that I am sure of.

How does any of that prevent you from being Black Ajah?

Blame yourselves you got a claim. Honestly Mort you're on my list after ABR and ML so I expect as much. I think you guys are afraid that detailed claims like this will out you guys.

Again, we do NOT want to out Aes Sedai for no reason. That is a BAD thing! How often do I have to say this for you to get it through your head?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would ABR lie about his detections? He would have to be retarded to do so, and there is absolutely no advantage for ABR-scum to lie about the detections. What would he gain from doing so? You assume that because he might be scum that he's going to lie, and that's just bad logic.

I’m saying he will mess up what he claims, other AS(unknown) will notice this and vote him.

Why does ABR being scum make him more likely to mess up his claim than if he is town? He has access to the same information in both situations...

I'm pretty sure I'm way more confirmed town than you will ever be. I've already nailed 3 scum players in a row, what have you done to confirm yourself?

You only nailed Flay. With some weird post that suggested you knew about his role, I still don’t know exactly what you were hinting at but it suggested you as cop-like, and it worked because he was scum.

You're wrong. I was the person who put the pressure on Fabian after everyone else believed his fake claim and backed off, and I was also the person who started putting pressure on Isacc Day/Twilight 1 while we were waiting on the results of the Fabian lynch. I started both of those lynches when there was little to no pressure on either person, AND I nailed Flay when he lied about his claim.

But why haven't you confirmed anyone else? You seem to have half-claimed/outted yourself....why haven't you delivered more information?

Why should I? What advantage is there to me revealing random information that I know when it does not get scum lynched? I prefer to play things close to the chest so that scum don't know exactly how much I *do* know, and I find you a hypocrit for suspecting ABR of being scum for rolefishing on Sajin while you are rolefishing on me.

How does any of that prevent you from being Black Ajah?

This is the only last minor possibility, but I think Sajin being alive alone clears this greatly.

Why? Why wouldn't Black Ajah keep their partner alive so they have someone to confirm everything they claim and make them look better?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why should I? What advantage is there to me revealing random information that I know when it does not get scum lynched? I prefer to play things close to the chest so that scum don't know exactly how much I *do* know, and I find you a hypocrit for suspecting ABR of being scum for rolefishing on Sajin while you are rolefishing on me.

If you have confirmed town, and die that doesn’t help us.

I'm fairly confident that we aren't missing out.

Why does ABR being scum make him more likely to mess up his claim than if he is town? He has access to the same information in both situations...

If he doesn’t have any detections because he isn’t AS or even Black.

You are daft if you honestly believe ABR is not AS or Black Ajah. His claims have essentially confirmed him as one of those two roles. There is almost no chance that he is not AS or BA.

Yes, I do have a partner backing me up.

I could claim all the detection results, but that would be seriously anti-town.

There is no one back you up, only the words you suggesting that one can. While Sajin is openly backing me. I doubt you claiming would at all be anti-town.

I'm pretty sure ABR has a partner, but that doesn't preclude him from being scum. Let's remember that it doesn't preclude you or Sajin from being scum either.

Look at it this way, ME-Sajin are town. Let’s suppose for a second ABR and his partner are town. KoC and Mos could be town too. MoS has acted town, I couldn’t bond him, nor could I KoC. That’s 6 people we could seriously confirm town. With sleep locations and other detections we could seriously narrow down some others. Leaving only a few possible suspects as scum that we could start nailing. I.E. ML, anyone notice his style his lack of contribution in finding flay/Fabian?

I don't think Flay/Fabian had any scumpartners, but the evidence I have could be misleading me.

Hmm, I might as well get this out here now, before I end up dead or anything. I have reason to believe that Mr. Flay and Fabian were the only members of their mafia group. I didn't think it through before while I suspected Benmage, but I am now almost certain that there are no more Survivor mafia.

Really?

A 2 man mafia group in a game this size seems somewhat improbable, especally if town really has ten zillion minor power roles like everyone is claiming.

Yea, I didn't think it likely, either, but evidence that I have leads me to believe it's distinctly possible, as I can't come up with a reasonable explanation for them to have partners that is more likely than a two-person group.

Benmage: What, exactally, is a "warder" in game terms? Do you control them? Are you linked to them? If you die, does your warder die? (I'm asking these questions because that is how it worked in the books, especally that last one.)

I left no information out, you know as much as I.

Their pms probably don't guarantee each other's alignments MBL.

But our workings together make me believe him not to be Black. Also still being alive helps.

Again I ask: Why does a partner being alive preclude the other partner from being Black Ajah?

Mmk. I may as well drop my idea that there are no Black Ajah at this point, since if all claims are true then we have 8 of them in a 26 player game, which is nearly 33% of the town. So now I get to do what armlx showed me how to do in Choose Carefully. Only problem is that we don't know some of the pairs, so I have to make a few assumptions.

Pair 1:
Albert + XXXXX

Pair 2:
Benmage + Sajin

Pair 3:
Shadowknight + Kison

Pair 4:
Faraday + XXXXX

So we have 2 remaining Aes Sedai that have not been outted, and 2 confirmed town dead ones. My opinion is that the remaining 2 should claim now. Hell, at this point I think that the town could benefit greatly from a massclaim, possibly to the point of breaking it if we're lucky.

My theory is this:

I think that 2 of the teams are fully clear, and of the remaining two, there are 2-3 Black Ajah members contained within. That means that, of the 5 living Aes Sedai, 2-3 of them are scum. The most likely of these to be scum is Albert, given his marvelous track record of lying through his teeth, which leaves either Benmage/Sajin or the mystery partner of one of the dead ones to be confirmed town.

If you think I'm barking up the wrong tree don't hesitate to point out something better, but I can see this as netting us several scum with limited risk.

I'm happy with my vote.

I think we have more than 8 Aes Sedai in this game. Much more.

What's the average # of scum in a game like this? Would 2 forsaken + 2 Black Ajah be enough? More likely there's another team of 2 darkfriends or something (doing all the non saidarish kills). I think it would be wise to go after them before the BA. That way we have detections as long as possible and don't kill all our power roles with scum still alive. Besides, the scum are doing a good job offing AS without our help. If there are BA, they'll hit them eventually and save us the bother.

Also, there's the option of having AS still someone we think is BA.

I'd say it's more likely we have a group of 3 or 4 Black Ajah along with the 2 forsaken, and maybe an SK?

Also, I don't think we should still people, because if we are wrong we hurt ourselves, and if we are right we should just be lynching them anyway. Stilling people doesn't prove anything one way or another. For example, while I believe that SpyreX *was* stilled, I have no reason to believe he isn't an SK now strangling Aes Sedai for doing this to him. We have to deal with that at some point. There are probably other male channelers we don't know about, too.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@armlx: Oh yeah, you're in this game too. You're better than me at this. Assuming 4 pairs of 2 Neighbors each in a 26 person game with the possibility, but not the guarentee, of multiple scumgroups, how many of said Neighbors would you expect to be scum, and what sort of scumgroup distribution would you expect?

Your base assumption is likely wrong, though. I'm leaning more towards 4 Black Ajah, even.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Night 1 Locations:

River: Fuzz/TSS, Sajin, Yos, Benmage, Slicey
Stables: SpyreX, Setael/OGB
Windmill: Mufasa, Mr. Flay, MacavityLock, Kison
Barn: ABR, armlx, Moratorium, Faraday, Goatrevolt
Blacksmith: Kairyuu, MBL, Isacc
Silo: Seraphim/KoC, MoS, JVW

Night 2 Locations:

It is a mystery.

Night 3 Locations:

River: Kairyuu, Mufasa
Stables: No one
Windmill: Moratorium, MacavityLock, ABR, Goatrevolt
Barn: Faraday, Yos, fuzzy/TSS
Blacksmith: SpyreX, Seraphim/KoC, Setael/OGB
Silo: Sajin, Kison, JVW, Benmage, armlx, MoS

Unclaimed: MBL

Night 4 Locations:

River: Moratorium, Setael/OGB
Stables: Kairyuu
Windmill: Benmage
Barn: Seraphim/KoC, Yos
Blacksmith: MacavityLock, SpyreX, Sajin, ABR
Silo: MoS, JVW, fuzzy/TSS, armlx

Unclaimed: MBL (Not Barn), Goatrevolt

[Mastermind of Sin]

Your base assumption is likely wrong, though. I'm leaning more towards 4 Black Ajah, even.

This sounds a little ridiculous to me.

What's so ridiculous about 6 scum in a 26 player game?

3 Black Ajah, perhaps, and 3 Survivor Mafia(Darkfriends). THat would make more sense, IMO.

Except Flay and Fabian don't have any living scumpartners.

3 Black Ajah, 2 Survivor Mafia, 1 SK?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Probably. That's what mafia groups do. This *is* a mafia game, after all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I could also theoretically see 2 Forsaken and 3 Black Ajah, and one or both of the groups know of the other, but can't talk at night. But now we're looking at a 5-person mafia group with multiple nightkills, hindered only slightly by divided night talk groups. Not my favorite pet theory, for sure.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Based on the books:

1) Most darkfriends are ambitious. Given a chance to take out someone above them in the ranks for a chance to get closer to power themselves, they wouldn't give it a second thought.

2) Black Ajah don't know who the Forsaken are, necessarily, since they haven't met most of them and many of the ones they have "met" have been in shrouded meetings where they didn't actually find out what they looked like. Therefore, they could accidentally try to kill them, not knowing they were Forsaken.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Would have to be more than two Forsaken right...as there were two kills last night 3/3 in your theory would be the divisions imo.

No, I'm suggesting 2/3/1/1 (Isacc) as the divisions. I think we have another SK, strangling would be a great SK kill method. I think the Forsaken killed by incineration, and I think they are gone at this point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

By the way, there are 6 Ajah colors (Green, White, Grey, Blue, Red, Yellow), so if we have 2 of each color (seems logical), we have at least 12 Aes Sedai in this game. I have no clue where Kairyuu is getting the number 8 from, as it doesn't follow the flavor not does it seem to make sense given what we know about the setup.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS: I'm getting 8 because we have 3 dead, 3 claimed and alive, and two (minimum) alive and unclaimed. That's 8, and assuming more would strike me as strange. Hell, having this many is strange enough as it is, since the mini only had a single pair.

@Mod: V/LA until Monday

Why not assume more? First off, assuming that this setup will reflect the mini is faulty logic. Secondly, with the number of players we have alive in this game, and the strong likelyhood that we have a BA mafia, 8 is far too small a number of Aes Sedai for this game.

By the way, there are 6 Ajah colors (Green, White, Grey, Blue, Red, Yellow), so if we have 2 of each color (seems logical), we have at least 12 Aes Sedai in this game. I have no clue where Kairyuu is getting the number 8 from, as it doesn't follow the flavor not does it seem to make sense given what we know about the setup.

7 Ajahs, you're forgetting Brown. Also, I don't think we can say 100% that Faraday had a partner.

So 14 then...

Why would Faraday *not* have a partner? Everyone else seems to...

@Macavity: What's your reasoning for thinking Faraday might not have had a partner? Those who've claimed all have a partner... seems unfounded.

No particular reason, and I think it's likely that he does. Just that it's not 100%.

Why won't you say the same about Shadow Knight or Kison? Why single out Faraday?

Eh...I donno, I think in the books the forsaken had the black aes sedi pretty much cowed.

I disagree. I think they were only cowed in the presence of the Forsaken. Behind their backs, things were a little different. Regardless, though, we have to keep in mind that this mafia game is *based* on the books, not a direct copy. In keeping with the spirit of mafia, WoT flavor can easily support rival Forsaken/BA mafia groups.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Can you prod Goatrevolt?

He's only made one post during this game day, and he still has yet to claim a location. That kind of activity is unacceptable.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No way there are 14 AS. Seems ridiculously high. How about the Mod just used some ajahs, and some he didn't.

Willing to bet?

The Aes Sedai speculation's pretty much killed this game off. Back to suspects.

vote: MoS

Why?

Yeah, so any input on ML's 0 successful scum hunting? His non-existence on the flay/fabian wagons... imo he looks like the perfect #3 of the survivor mafia/forsaken.

Still no reason to assume there is a third Forsaken.

I think my votes on ABR, personally I'd rather see ML go first. So

unvote vote Macavitylock

Pretty sure I already know what ML is going to claim, but I agree he's been less than helpful in this game. Even so, ABR is most likely BA, so we should get rid of him first.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yeah, so any input on ML's 0 successful scum hunting? His non-existence on the flay/fabian wagons... imo he looks like the perfect #3 of the survivor mafia/forsaken.

Still no reason to assume there is a third Forsaken.

I think my votes on ABR, personally I'd rather see ML go first. So

unvote vote Macavitylock

Pretty sure I already know what ML is going to claim, but I agree he's been less than helpful in this game. Even so, ABR is most likely BA, so we should get rid of him first.

You know what ML will claim... i don't lets see it because I think he's scum. And you really think the Forsaken/BA would be at odds with one another and have only a 2 person forsaken team...

****Why were there two deaths last night than?

I for one think there is only one unified scum team.

If there is only one unified scum team,

why were there two deaths last night?

I think it's pretty obvious that we have an SK kill and a BA mafia kill.

Still no reason to assume there is a third Forsaken.
.

Even if you have flavor reason to believe there were only two forsaken, that dosn't mean there might not be more people in that mafia group. I'd expect Forsaken to usually have other darkfriends or shadowspawn working for them...

I have mechanic reasons to believe there are only two forsaken. It has nothing to do with the flavor. That would be way too tenuous for any sort of certainty.

MoS, what is the reason to believe there isn't a 3rd Forsaken? The lack of kill? How does the presence of a 3rd Forsaken or lack there of drastically alter how we should play out today?

The lack of a third Forsaken means we shouldn't be hunting for people who could be scumbuddies of Fabian or Mr. Flay. Case in point, the most likely scumbuddy was Benmage, and we wasted time running him up. I apologize for not making the connection sooner and preventing it, but Benmage was just so damn scummy that I got sidetracked.

As for why I believe there isn't a third Forsaken, it would require revealing information that isn't public knowledge. I may reveal it later today, but I don't think it's necessary at this time. I've nailed 3 scum in a row so far this game, so that should be more than enough to convince you all that I am not only not part of the Forsaken mafia, but also that I most likely have the interests of the town in mind. At the very least, you should be willing to take my claim about the Forsaken without me revealing my source yet, because I have nothing to gain by that claim unless I am Forsaken myself, which we've already established is highly unlikely. I'll reveal it in good time, just not right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you sure you've played mafia before, Benmage?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I suggest that all Aes Sedai talk to their partners privately and discuss who they think the Black Ajah are among the people they think are Aes Sedai. This should be helpful towards discovering who the actual Black Ajah are, based on what everyone says.

MOS, does your reasoning extend to why, with two scum groups, the

smaller

of the two should have the additional handicap of being survivors?

Flavor-wise, the Forsaken make sense as survivors, since they were only tenuously working together to begin with, and really they were more like individuals that happened to all want the same power. I'm guessing the Forsaken probably had some awesome abilities, and they just got screwed by some awesome scumhunting [/egostroking].

[Mastermind of Sin]

Even if you have flavor reason to believe there were only two forsaken, that dosn't mean there might not be more people in that mafia group. I'd expect Forsaken to usually have other darkfriends or shadowspawn working for them...

I have mechanic reasons to believe there are only two forsaken. It has nothing to do with the flavor. That would be way too tenuous for any sort of certainty.

Again, though, even if there are only two forsaken, that does not mean that there are only two people in the forsake's scum group. One does not necessarally follow from the other...

My evidence has more to do with how many people are in the scum group, not how many forsaken there are in the game. There could be more Forsaken, but they weren't aligned with Flay and Fabian.

Also, Happy Birthday Setael!

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Mcavitylock: Yes I used the one power during the last twilight to the best of my knowledge.

This is not the answer I was expecting and that worries me. Both I and ABR claim to have used saidar last night too. We all stayed at Blacksmith. I can confirm that Sajin's detection results from last night are correct. They're the same ones I got. However, only 2 detections from the Blacksmith occurred. That means that either one of the 3 of us is lying about using saidar, or someone has messed with at least one of us in our ability to use saidar. I can say with pretty good certainty that I have not been stilled as of today.

@ABR and Sajin

, is it possible that either of you have been stilled?

I don't think Detecting Saidar is an active "use" of Saidar itself, at least based on book flavor and the WoT mini. It's really just a passive ability, but I don't think the ability to detect saidar would be detected as a use of saidar. That wouldn't make a lot of sense, as then Person 1 could use saidar and find out everyone else who can use saidar even if they aren't doing anything with it, simply because those people detected Person 1's use of saidar. Does that make sense?

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Since we can detect Aes Sedai, we could narrow down the number of suspects to only a few, should one of us die.

This seems like a poorly thought-out plan. You severely limit your ability to deduce everyone's roles just so that if one of you dies in a night then the other person knows what detections were made? What if you weren't killed with Saidar? What if you were killed in a mundane fashion or through Saidin? Your whole plan goes to waste *and* you would have less information to work with from your detections.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why the hell would we sleep in different locations?

We don't give a damn about finding out who the power roles are. All we want to know is who are the killing roles, and how to stop them. So if I die, my partner could hypothetically detect where the saidar came from if he slept in the same location as me.

Again, why are you assuming that the only way you're going to die is through the use of Saidar?

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Yes, I targeted someone (or at least attempted to) with an active saidar ability over twi 4.

Well if ABR and Sajin both claim to have used Saidar, someone is lying to us, unless one of you got roleblocked.

ABR, Sajin, and ML: Is there any chance that you got roleblocked last night?

Since we can detect Aes Sedai, we could narrow down the number of suspects to only a few, should one of us die.

This seems like a poorly thought-out plan. You severely limit your ability to deduce everyone's roles just so that if one of you dies in a night then the other person knows what detections were made? What if you weren't killed with Saidar? What if you were killed in a mundane fashion or through Saidin? Your whole plan goes to waste *and* you would have less information to work with from your detections.

ABR suggested this idea, which I agree with. If someone died due to saidar in the same location that we stayed at, either I or he would have a hint on figuring out who the killer was. As ABR was an obvious target for kills, it made sense and still does for me to stay with him.

Again, why are you two assuming ABR will get killed with Saidar? Also, if you were really worried about finding the killers, you would have spread yourselves out, since the scum would obviously avoid ABR due to him being a top protection target for doc abilities.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Upon reexamination of the evidence I thought I had, somehow the results were misinterpreted and it took until now for me to get any clarification on it. I no longer have any reason to believe Fabian and Flay did *not* have scumpartners. I'll repeat that in bold so no one misses it.

Fabian and Flay could easily have had scumpartners.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because someone who was using Saidar on the same night that we had a non-Saidar kill was most likely not performing a kill. In addition, it helps us discern what else went on at night besides killing, and we can catch people in a lie if they try to claim something that didn't actually happen. How do you think we got Flay lynched?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Claim your sleeping location, Goatrevolt.

[Mastermind of Sin]

All this "it's very possible I got roleblocked" is also hooey. I've never seen a game where someone isn't told so when they get roleblocked. If you performed any kind of action and you were roleblocked, the mod would have informed you.

Only if you have an action that gets results, of course. I have never played a game on this site where any sort of doctor/roleblocker/vig/non-information role was told when they were roleblocked.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Night 1 Locations:

River: Fuzz/TSS, Sajin, Yos, Benmage, Slicey
Stables: SpyreX, Setael/OGB
Windmill: Mufasa, Mr. Flay, MacavityLock, Kison
Barn: ABR, armlx, Moratorium, Faraday, Goatrevolt
Blacksmith: Kairyuu, MBL, Isacc
Silo: Seraphim/KoC, MoS, JVW

Night 2 Locations:

It is a mystery.

Night 3 Locations:

River: Kairyuu, Mufasa
Stables: No one
Windmill: Moratorium, MacavityLock, ABR, Goatrevolt
Barn: Faraday, Yos, fuzzy/TSS
Blacksmith: SpyreX, Seraphim/KoC, Setael/OGB
Silo: Sajin, Kison, JVW, Benmage, armlx, MoS

Unclaimed: MBL

Night 4 Locations:

River: Moratorium, Setael/OGB
Stables: Kairyuu
Windmill: Benmage, Goatrevolt
Barn: Seraphim/KoC, Yos
Blacksmith: MacavityLock, SpyreX, Sajin, ABR
Silo: MoS, JVW, fuzzy/TSS, armlx

Unclaimed: MBL (Not Barn)

[Mastermind of Sin]

I was assuming all AS have an action thy get results on. I guess I could be wrong about that.

What results would ABR get from attempting to roleblock someone? If someone roleblocked ABR, he wouldn't know it...

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, did you miss my question?

MacavityLock, you didn't actually target someone last night, right? If you didn't use an active ability, then only ABR and Sajin would have done so, explaining why there were only two uses detected.

Why did you think this?

I'd rather not say at this point, at least not until I know what it was that you did last night, since one of you, ABR, and Sajin is likely lying. In fact, at this point, I think you need to tell us what your ability does and what you did with it last night.

The points armlx raise against Albert, especally about things that were either mistakes or lies on his part, are interesting.

On a side note, my main suspect is still Benmage, for a strong possible link to Flay and a claim that's very vauge, dosn't make a lot of sense, and is completly unproven. (I realize that MOS thinks Flay was part of a 2 man scum group, but until I see some evidence for that, I'm still not seeing that as the most likely possibility here.)

EBWOP: Upon reexamination of the evidence I thought I had, somehow the results were misinterpreted and it took until now for me to get any clarification on it. I no longer have any reason to believe Fabian and Flay did *not* have scumpartners. I'll repeat that in bold so no one misses it.

Fabian and Flay could easily have had scumpartners.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWODP:

So, if oyu do have another ability, why the fucking hell would you waste a night action on a do nothing. ABR has an RB, I would assume you do, even a blind RB is better.

I dont think its right for you to respond to this post in any way, as doing so would give away if you didn't have another option, but honestly, if you do what you did was an extremely terrible play. Presumably your other action would also be detectable as you are a Channeler, so reason 1 doesn't work.

I think this entire post is just plain stupid. I think you either don't understand this game or you haven't been paying attention or both. I also think that it's not useful for ML to respond to this post, especially since it's crock full of shit reasoning.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not going to explain why you're wrong, armlx, as that defeats the point of ML not responding to your post. Just let it be known that you are, in fact, wrong on this subject.

[Mastermind of Sin]

AS can detect in some manner Saidin use around them. Presumably, they have Saidin linked abilities, one of which is to "still" someone and cut them off of their Saidin linked abilities permanently.

...

I rest my case about you not understanding this game and not paying attention.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If anyone roleblocked ML last night, they should claim now, because otherwise you are condemning a ML to death.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have far, far more issues with MBL than ML via play.

However, considering that ML is the "other" mystical white that, in theory, can manipulate votes and there IS a vote manipulation designed to try and get ME lynched (as it hasn't been clarified).

I'm in the process of rereading this whole mess of a game. I'll have some notes and what have you.

Here's a taster: I think we're at (shock) 8 total Aes Sedai. As no living Aes Sedai have been stilled I am thinking there is only -one- Aes Sedai Black Ajah.

I'll have more for this after this is done.

I believe you are wrong. I think we have at least 14 Aes Sedai, and minimum 3 Black Ajah.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Here's a taster: I think we're at (shock) 8 total Aes Sedai. As no living Aes Sedai have been stilled I am thinking there is only -one- Aes Sedai Black Ajah.

That is damn interesting, it would make sense if there were more Black AS who new each other in different mason groups to still other AS...since this apparently hasn't been happening I'm willing to believe only 1 Black AS. Interesting indeed.

After this damning little tidbit, I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Sounds awfully like Black Ajah trying to lend credibility to the idea that there are way less BA than actually exist in game by agreeing with someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Still suspicious of ABR *and* ML, though. I would be up for lynching any of the three today, as I'm fairly certain at least one is scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS why wouldn't the Black AS be stilling the rest of us left and right?

I'm sort of confused here on ML's vote manipulation, anyone else?

Because it would be

soooo

hard to figure out who the Black Ajah are if their protown Aes Sedai have been stilled...

How is contrasting statements made by you and MBL not enough?? If you're AS you can't lie. Hence he is and setting an AS up for this disaster would have to be scummy.

@MoS open you're head geeze. All i said was it was damn interesting, and if you can't see that than you're an idiot. All you're going to do is add to the scum fire attacking me.

You didn't just say it was "interesting" You also said that you thought it was a plausible explanation, that you believed this could actually be the setup. That's what I take issue with.

We're up to 14 now? Really?

7 Ajah colors, two of each color...makes sense.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see 14, 2 of every ajahs plausible personally. To many powerroles, combined with scum/dfs who the hell was i suppose to bond?? Nope doesn't make sense to me. Also to many masons, although you'll argue 3 Black ajah infiltrators...nah and if that was the case I still see stilling as an option. As it would take all the other 'stilled' AS to come out and claim that they were stilled. Meanwhile the scum team could be knocking out powerroles, and whose to argue that it simply wasn't town AS trying to still people as in the case of ML claiming to still MBL.

It's too much of a risk for the scum to take. Too many ways for it to go wrong.

You ignoring the blatant inaccuracies illustrated between ML and MBL is

interesting

.

You ignoring the MBL has claimed to be responsible for the ML/mBL mixup is "interesting".

All I need is for Benmage to start putting his quotes at the bottom of his posts, and I'll be completely convinced he's an alt of a certain someone he shares a namesake with. Is anyone else feeling the same amount of crap logic coming from him as I am?

Are you conjuring Empking?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not an alt of anyone, i tried searching for a quick post of mine to quote, but none that i felt like.

I know you're not an alt, but you share a lot of...qualities...with someone else on this site.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Completeness, for analysis.

And those that never sent one in and would have been randomized, and the possibility of scum lying... eh i think this is a non-issue minute thing at best.

Then just tell him where you slept and get the issue out of the way instead of drawing it out like this and distracting us. Refusing to claim isn't going to get him to back off, you're just making it worse, which makes you as complicit as him in this distraction.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I could go for Benmage, ABR, and Yos2 lynches. Yos2's inactivity is not like him. I'm smelling lurking scum here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

2.) I'm really not seeing this 14 AS deal - considering we have 8 that means of the susbet of 10 unclaimed players 3/5ths of them would be AS. Not buying it and not understanding. Which leads me to (OMG ROLEFISHING)

What part of 2*7 don't you get?

--- MoS: just claim AS already. I'm not the smartest fish but if you're not AS then I dont understand. I even think I know who your partner is (and if I know, scum who are looking would damn well know).
--- If/when this happens, there may be a glaring issue to (like so many others) be put to rest.

...?

[Mastermind of Sin]

3.) There is a subset of this game that, really, I forget are playing. In this grouping: JVW, Arm, Goat, Yos I would bet there is at least A scum, if not more.
--- My money is on Yos. I'd almost vote for him now but too lazy to make the full case.

Excuse me?

How could you have forgotten I was playing?

Not only have I been consistantly active this game, I was also a major force behind the Issac lynch and the Mr Flay lynch. Not only have I been active this game, I've been quite effective at scumhunting as well. And I've posted a lot today as well; I'm sure everyone knows who I'm suspicious of, for example.

If you "fogot I was playing", you really aren't paying attention to the game...

I actually have no clue who you are suspicious of, because you haven't posted very much today. You've been averaging a little over a post a day lately, when the thread itself has been averaging over 100 posts a day, with only 16 players! That means the average player is making about 5-6 posts a day, so forgive me if I'm not buying your admonitions about people forgetting you are in this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What part of 2*7 don't you get?

The fact that you are far more adamant about 2*7 (which requires a whole grip more AS than we have according to my noes) versus the far more likely (1*8).

[snip]

I want to make sure my list is coming up correct. Is this right:

MacavityLock (White Ajah) - ABR (Red Ajah)
Benmage (Green Ajah) - Sajin (? Ajah)

Shadownight (Green Ajah) - Kison (White Ajah)
Faraday (Grey Ajah) - ?

Kai - Butler
SpyreX - Gentled Doublevoter

How does 1*8 make *any* sense at all? There are only 7 ajah colors, so that doesn't make any sense. In addition, you're claiming that we have a random Aes Sedai assortment of 2 White, 2 Green, 1 Grey, 1 Red, 1 Sajin color(I'm willing to bet he is not Grey OR Red), and 1 of whatever Faraday's partner is? I'm not buying it at all. I could theoretically buy that some colors were omitted, but I still think we have 2 of each color that exists, which means we are have 1 Grey, 1 Red, and 1 Sajin color unclaimed. IF we assume that Faraday's partner was Red or Sajin color (since I don't think we'd have a Grey-Grey pairing), we're still missing 1 Grey and 1 Red/Sajin color, MINIMUM. That means we have at least 10 Aes Sedai, and I'm willing to be there are more than that, even.

I'm thinking a partial massclaim might be useful. At this point, is anyone against claiming AS/not-AS? It would resolve the numbers issue and help us figure out approximately how many Black Ajah we're looking for. Some people seem to think 1 is a good number, and that's going to get us in a lot of trouble. Once this claim has been made, I have some conclusions I think we can make that will help the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

but no one else this game has claimed a vauge, flavorish ability where they don't really know what it does.

Thats because, at heart, we've had very few fullclaims. Even of those:

1.) Can you explain why a butler is an empowerer (or why there is a butler named Nipon)
2.) The "vote manipulation" of the White Ajah?
3.) The full abilities of the Red Ajah?

Hell, the only two that are alive AND have actually given 100% this is what I do claims are: myself and Ben.

And, yes, there is some definite issues with him around Flay... but he's not the only one. The above is a fairly large town++ for me, especially considering Flay, Fabian AND Mufasa's claims or lack thereof.

Actually, you're the only one, SpyreX, because we still don't know what bonding a Warder DOES.

@MoS -

* = 7 "ajah's" + 1 black ajah.

Of course you can't give an even dispersement under that because then the double obviously contains the scum.

SpyreX, that would be the worst setup ever. It would be like Dethy, you just figure out which color has two people claiming it and lynch both of them. Whatever Black Ajah we have, they probably exist *instead* of protown AS colors, because all Black Ajah in the books had a former color before they defected, and they probably have been given colors as safe claims. It makes no sense for the Black Ajah to exist outside of the color distribution.

[Mastermind of Sin]

White, Grey, Blue, Yellow, Green, Red, Brown, Black = 8 just so we are clear what I mean.

Black is not an Ajah color. The Black Ajah does not actually exist.

I'm thinking a partial massclaim might be useful. At this point, is anyone against claiming AS/not-AS? It would resolve the numbers issue and help us figure out approximately how many Black Ajah we're looking for. Some people seem to think 1 is a good number, and that's going to get us in a lot of trouble. Once this claim has been made, I have some conclusions I think we can make that will help the town.

I strongly support the above. Or a generic mass claim but I do not think that will provide that much more benefits then the quoted part already does.

Exactly. It allows us to gain information without telling the scum who they need to kill.

Why in the name of Zeus would you want just an "Aes Sedai come on out" claim.

If we're doing it, do it right.

See above. A full claim doesn't really help us right now, but a partial claim *does*.

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, I don't think that this partial claim should include colors.

Example:

Person X: I am Aes Sedai.
Person Y: I am also Aes Sedai.
Person Z: I am not Aes Sedai.

Simple as that, no color or ability information necessary.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, SpyreX, while it's not actually helpful to the town for you to speculate on this publicly, I'm still curious about this:

I even think I know who your partner is (and if I know, scum who are looking would damn well know).

On the assumption that I might be Aes Sedai, would you mind pming Kinetic with who you think my partner would be? I just want to find out what you think you saw in my play, after the game is over, when it's not relevant anymore. It'd make for some interesting post-game analysis.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll mention why AFTER this whole claim business goes away. Or after the game. No need to bother with that.

If you're pushing this so hard why don't you go first - it might come out regardless.

Well, I just wanted to get your unbiased reaction before the claim comes out, but I don't think it's helpful for you to speculate on publicly right now, because that only helps scum, whether or not you are right. Hence why I suggested Kinetic as a mediator, simply because I'm curious.

As for me claiming whether or not I am Aes Sedai, I'm willing to do so as soon as the rest of the unclaimed players agree with the partial massclaim.

In Favor (and unclaimed):

Mastermind of Sin
Knight of Cydonia

I need the following people to comment on whether or not they will go along with the partial massclaim:

1. thesilentspeaker (replaces fuzzylightning)
4. julienvonwolfe
7. Yosarian2 (replaces Tenchi)
9. armlx
11. Goatrevolt (replaces Tuberkulos)
12. Moratorium
14. Seteal (replaces OozingGoofBall (replaces Myndrunner))
16. MrBuddyLee (replaces: Tucking Fypo)

Everyone else not listed has already claimed whether or not they are Aes Sedai, as far as I know:

2. MacavityLock
5. Benmage (replaces Cyberbob)
6. Kairyuu
8. Albert B. Rampage
13. SpyreX
15. Sajin

[Mastermind of Sin]

See above. If you other options were actually that bad, sure.

MoS, a full AS claim is probably valid at this point, given that

A) If Mac is telling the truth, the average AS power probably isn't to the point its worth specifically targeting them.

B) Actual infinite info to sort with the detect abilities.

One last thing

What did SpyreX do to confirm himself as actually having been a channeler in the first place? If there is a claim, I want those who stilled (or w/e) him to come forward with some notification of success, as I'm starting to wonder if its possible for a scum to have just run the gambit claim D1.

I don't think it's useful for us to claim colors/abilities, see Mac's post as well.

ABR, I have a question for you. On the night that you attempted to roleblock Isacc, did your detection results reflect that attempt?

[Mastermind of Sin]

See above. If you other options were actually that bad, sure.

MoS, a full AS claim is probably valid at this point, given that

A) If Mac is telling the truth, the average AS power probably isn't to the point its worth specifically targeting them.

B) Actual infinite info to sort with the detect abilities.

One last thing

What did SpyreX do to confirm himself as actually having been a channeler in the first place? If there is a claim, I want those who stilled (or w/e) him to come forward with some notification of success, as I'm starting to wonder if its possible for a scum to have just run the gambit claim D1.

I don't think it's useful for us to claim colors/abilities, see Mac's post as well.

ABR, I have a question for you. On the night that you attempted to roleblock Isacc, did your detection results reflect that attempt?

Why does it matter? He could have easily lied about it. As for Moratorium, he has indeed slept at the location he claimed.

Two things:

- He probably didn't lie about it, as he didn't want to give himself away to abilities that could find locations.
- Based on who slept in the same location as you and the number of detections you had, you can probably figure out if there's a missing detection or not, within reasonable accuracy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

In Favor (and unclaimed):

Mastermind of Sin
Knight of Cydonia
thesilentspeaker
julienvonwolfe
Yosarian2
armlx
Moratorium
MrBuddyLee

I need the following people to comment on whether or not they will go along with the partial massclaim:

11. Goatrevolt (replaces Tuberkulos)
14. Seteal (replaces OozingGoofBall (replaces Myndrunner))

We've gotten enough agreements that we can begin. Here is the list of unclaimed:

Mastermind of Sin
Knight of Cydonia
thesilentspeaker
julienvonwolfe
Yosarian2
armlx
Moratorium
MrBuddyLee
Goatrevolt
Setael

We'll handle this as follows. I will start, and then I will choose who goes next. That person will claim, and then they will choose the next person, until we have finished the list.

I am Aes Sedai.

Durrr...

Yosarian2

, you are next.

New List:

Knight of Cydonia
thesilentspeaker
julienvonwolfe
armlx
Moratorium
MrBuddyLee
Goatrevolt
Setael

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, Vote: ABR

Still think he's a liar, still think Benmage is as bad a player as Battle Mage (and could still be scum at that).

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, MBL already started. I guess there's no point in waiting now.

I am Aes Sedi.

Not a fan of how MOS railroaded this though without explaining why it was supposed to be a good idea, though.

Figured you were. Now if only I could remember why I thought you were scum because of it...

Anyway, you need to choose who goes next. Otherwise, I'm going to do it for you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

-twitch-

-twitch-

Too .. many .. Aes Sedai

-twitch-

That's just. Umm. How many is that so far? 12 or so?

This is the part where I state the obvious:

I told you so.

So many AS, good job MoS

Pfft, and you said I was playing bad today. Y'all just wouldn't listen to me. Trust in me, and this game would be much easier for everyone. Except the scum, of course.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Full claim is retarded, but KoC already fucked us over by claiming Yellow. Great job...