Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)

[ortolan]

@Ortolan

What took you so long to confirm?

Read pm but forgot to confirm, sorry for holding up tha game!!!

Hey, people! I'm Mastin. Most of you have seen me before, some have not. I'm eternally scummy, and this time, you're right to vote me! Because I'm a ticked off scum guy who might as well be a serial killer because I know the role name of my partners, and not who they are, and while we have a quick topic, none of them confirmed! Yay! <_<
Let's scum hunt:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

Surely you jest, good sire.

Vote: ortolan

For taking way too long to confirm.
You wanted more time to pre-game chat with your buddies, huh?

I wish, Zee. I *think* that Ort's a member of my group, but because I was the ONLY one using the QT and wasn't informed of my partner's name, there's no way to be certain. <_<

So can we get a modkill on this guy for claiming scum with someone so we don't have to waste a lynch on a jester? (also you are wrong)

Note my comment on the matter. He does it all the time, and I am expecting that he will claim you to be scum and vote you now. That seems to be the general progression from what I've seen.

Does he play anti-town often?

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

or he gets killed by the mafier and we end up in quite a pickle don't we.

My style to others, anti-town to scummy. It catches scum, though, so I don't really care.

Doubtful

Note the attempt to get Mastin modkilled on page 1. If had actually done something against the rules then yes, I would somewhat agree with you. However, I think you're just being spiteful and trying to end the Day before the RVS has even fully ended.

Modkills only end the day if the modkilled player is town. If we lynch him and he's town this has the same result. Ergo potential for modkill is better because if he's scum we don't waste the lynch. Ergo ur argument sux. Unless you are scum and know he's town, in which case you're actively scummy.

I read the rules very carefully to make sure I won't get modkilled to avoid my normal joking RVS style from accidentally getting myself modkilled.

Which is why I found this suspicious, Kai, and am agreeing with you.

So why is him wanting to get you mod-killed for a reason which turns out not to violate the rules of this game any worse than him wanting to get you mod-killed for a reason which turns out to be a valid one? If there is ever an errant modkill it's the moderator's fault, it's got nothing to do with scum.

In spite of myself, I feel the compulsion for a

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

[ortolan]

Not fully buying it...

Yes. You caught me. Not confirming was a deliberate scum gambit because not confirming as scum enables me to.........um wait I'll think of something later.

What do you think?

You seem to be craving the noose more than David Carradine.

Pushing modkills-->Scummy.

So you said before, and as I said before; no.

I'm a popular night-kill. If I updated my record, you'd see how terrible it is.

You mean you get night-killed a lot or very little?

Modkills only end the day if the modkilled player is town.

Except in newbie games.

Funnily enough, I don't see the relevance of this comment.

In spite of myself, I feel the compulsion for a

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

Instead of voting someone you think is scummy, apparently, you bandwagon. Scum tell 142.

Yes, I really am that bad as scum that I deliberately contradict what I just spent my whole post arguing for. You caught me. You were much better at scum-hunting than I thought.

[ortolan]

oh I will also add that by the time I'd posted it was obvious you weren't going to be mod-killed, I just left that in there as my reaction at the time and because I didn't care to/couldn't be bothered censoring something like that. However I can understand the reaction of wanting to mod-kill you for pro-town benefit, and you've failed to answer my points for the desire to mod-kill you not actually being scummy.

[ortolan]

Oh, trust me, I don't have the usual human thought pattern. I see what no other person sees. Amongst them, my speculation on Shinigami win conditions.

Yes that tends to happen when you are the only one who has viewed your Shinigami win condition

[ortolan]

I believe that pushing for a mod kill is taking the easy way out. If the person legitimately does something wrong, by all means I feel that they should be modkilled. I thought there was a ruling against voting for yourself on MS.

I really only saw Benmage's one RVS post. I haven't seen anything of content.

Also a vig kill is different from a mod kill in the way that at least he's being killed as part of the game rather than being killed by the "god" of our little world.

Arguing about what is equitable rather than playing to win.

Benmage (208) is acting like scum.

Llama's 211 vote on myk is good, I might follow it. I agree that myk strangely suspects two people on opposite sides of the table.

myk, why are you deathnote fishing in 219?

Upon first read, I am getting the vibe of a bunch of townies all accusing one another. I think the way this game started, gameplay getting off to a quick start with lots of pages while some players hadn't even posted yet, is probably being taken advantage of by the scum.

Why do you get this vibe? This whole post is scummy.

I find Mastin's posts e.g. 229 almost impossible to read...and now I'm pretty much skipping them.

What motivation would scum have to kill an unkillable player to remove a potential Death Note?

So they get it. It's safer in their hands than in those of a neutral not sided with them. Tell me if you disagree. You also don't explain your vote on myk in 246. I'm also not sure I like you setting up the possible false dichotomy of magnus v.s. Mastin in 243.

261- myk still failing to comment on the multitude of potentially commentable-on-things.

The 'find' function does not answer all. I say in that post that I think it would be easy for scum to slip on the wagons of the three players I mention. You are on one of those wagons. And I will start with you.

not a fan. Why is semi spending so much time critiquing Mastin's play while not actually suspecting him?

I logged in with joy at an awesome, HUGE theme-game and within the first 30 minutes

ConsoM

Mastin with great Jackassery begins claiming all sorts of crap which immediately looks like an attempt to take advantage of his position as a neutral to abuse the game. I became very alarmed and wanted to make sure the Mod saw it and weighed in on it if necessary so I asked for a

Mod review

and a

votecount

.

How was he abusing the game exactly? I queried the mod kill also, but for pragmatic purposes, I wasn't complaining about game "abuse", or anything. Thus I don't like this justification. Feel free to elaborate.

I love omgus'ing as town.

Yer it's seriously the best.

I lynch easily….I always felt I was somewhat reserved. Although my mentality is switching toward favoring certain people as policy lynches, but I won’t go there just yet.

I’m not calling scum hunting a distraction, your posts make reading them so annoying and painful I don’t even want to bother, hence the distractive style. Hmm this may counter my first part about being reserved, but I don’t have much of an issue lynching a town nuisance. Odds of a successful lynch day one are slim. At least this way we save the town a headache, and maybe nail a scum too.

dislike

As far as games and your play style…Its only been mafia 91 and your style was nowhere near the mass one line quotes. In fact it was so drastically different than this games that with your previous games allegiance I have to believe you to be scum here.

Not a scum-tell

It is still very early but here is my initial read on you:

1) I like your Orto vote

First time I've seen someone congratulate a random vote. It's also at odds with your earlier declaring of me as obv-town. What gives?

I can tell you guys right now that Lamont is a boy scout. It won't help much to tell whether he's town or scum, but being the trooper that he is, he felt the need to show the mod a possible breaking of the rules. I may have only played 1 game/day phase with Lamont, but I've read enough of his post to know that he's not going to let a violation pass by. He pays attention to detail quite often -- Sometimes he'll look too hard into things, but, like I said, it doesn't surprise me that he'd point out a MK'able offense.

BUT.. besides this whole 'wanting to get Mastin MK'd' situation, I can't vouche him for anything else he has done/said that has come across as scummy.

You can't vouch for him...yet you don't make an attempt to read him either. Scumpairing Potentiality.

Gut-bad-read on Kmd's 303. I must be in a negative mood this game, half the players are scum.

myk's 313 leaning back town.

WyLC 330 decent suspects.

@ 359 who is Raye Penber (directed to anyone familiar with the anime/manga/whatever it is )?

What. The. Hell.

Scum-tell, see wiki.

Wow, was that a mod kill or a vig kill?

"

Same for LC's 365.

@ 370 LC why was he a jackass? He pulled off exactly what he says he's always good at- getting killed.

@ myk's 371 why can scum hide less than they could before?

372-374 why are you all assuming it was a vig kill?

Really, Zee? With crap play like that I would suspect more mafi off the wagon than on...

You are really fighting hard for my vote aren't you.

I would try to look for his "certain" defenders. People that would be more certain of his innocence than would be normal for mere blind villagers...

You would say that, wouldn't you.

@ 391, 392 actually I don't necessarily disagree with you on Kise.

396 by LC is good.

Kmd's 416: why is he ignoring LC v.s. Kise? Several players on page 17 seem to be doing this.

Mastin's name is in green during the vote count because Gelus is signifying that he has HAD Mastin under review.

Stop feigning ignorance, read the mod's first post.

No day-vig-kills here. Otherwise, we'd have entered night phase, yeah? Now, let's move on.

Stop feigning ignorance please.

You are NOT perfect when it comes to scumhunting. You are an instigator; A heckler, at best. You thought you found Mastin out as scum, but look(!), his name is green..

Um...so you do know what the green means now? This whole paragraph is a bit scummy really.

@ Kise 433 how come he suddenly became scum?

@ Steph 445 why do you people keep saying he was mod-killed? And why do you scummily qualify with "apparently modkilled"?

@ mo 456 why is LC's attack on Kise scummy?

Back and forth between mo and Kise here may be contrived

465 - Why is ABR active lurking?

Of course optimal town play is to ignore the last words of scum creating WIFOM, but MS will never learn that if Mods don't let them.

I would be extremely annoyed as scum if a bad/newb scumbuddy tried to do this.

Mastin's death confirmed my theory that Deathnote's are being used. I'd say the people talking at the moment are in ownership of one and that Mastin has been killed. I doubt anyone wouldn't get involved in a game like this and just sit back then deathnote to be honest. I for one would talk, act suprised when Mastin died, even pissed off. Bitch about him perhaps.

Lamont, Zeenon, Benmage. You three exhibited these behaviours aye?

Those thinking it was a modkill, you dont have deathnotes, gratz! Anyone want to disagree? Perhaps a sudden death on my part will clear things up.

Scummy.

ABR's 492 seems town.

PhilyEc's 495- mods can overcome this "instant kill from the timezone as a clue to who did it" very easily.

I was about to vote Kise but based on the above...ummm...hmmmmmm. Let me think about this. Sorry for long post, it's as much for my own notes as anything else.

[ortolan]

I wouldn't rule out Kise and LC pairing still. LC was quick to unvote based on nothing other than Zazier requoting what his original reason for voting Kise was. It's that or mykonian. I'll stick with Kise I think. He did enough that was scummy independently of LC.

Vote: Kise

[ortolan]

It said he is "used by Light" in the TV show. Maybe he was town but could be potentially used by the mafia so acted the way he did deliberately to get killed? I dunno. Or maybe it's just his playstyle.

[ortolan]

Starbuck 521 - Not sure about her.

I will say right here and now that Orto has impressed me as a very good player (I have watched him in LAL Modded by Yos2) and besides I really like his avi.

Thank you

Now notice that this is WITHIN THE SAME POST! Would scum actually do this!? And use THAT kiind of crapologic IN THE SAME POST, INTENTIONALLY?? I think not. Oh wait, let me rephrase that: I think not.

The thing is, I don't understand why he would make this error as town, either.

Kise

, in Post 428, could you explain the apparent contradiction between you thinking Mastin's name being green in all the votecounts means he is "under review" but then showing you know that his green name indeed means that he is town?

-His mod question about roleclaiming after Mastin was killed, and not before he was killed.

Why was this scummy? I don't quite understand?

-That he said that those who were voting Mastin are good to look at, but not doing this.

Probably in line with meta.

-The ad hom attacks against you as they are saying that you have been wrong about some players before, and therefore you are wrong now.

Definitely in meta.

This may be consistent with how he normally plays, are you therefore saying it is a town-tell or a null-tell? Do you think he is capable of deliberately subverting his town-meta to do the same thing as scum?

2) I unvoted him because he cannot be scum using the criteria cited in #1 because:

a) He clearly has a reason for believing in Mastin's townliness (though a terribly flawed reason) and it is within his meta to believe that.

b) He clearly cannot be making that up which is 99% in line with his meta.

Have you played with him where he was scum before? Playing in a manner consistent with his town meta does not mean he is not also playing in a manner consistent with his scum meta (it might be a null-tell in this particular case). If you have played with him where he was scum before, how does this differ from his scum meta? It just seems not only are you dismissing his actions as scum-tells but you seem to think they

clear

him at present which I'm definitely not seeing.

Mastin is not a fool
Mastin claimed shinigami
shinigami could easily have a deathnote
claiming shinigami is practically a scumclaim.
because mastin is not a fool, he couldn't be hurt by the claim, and doesn't have a deathnote.

What did you stand to gain by confirming this?

@lamont. If I read you correctly, Kise more often doesn't understand the rules/plays a little weird, and it can't be that he uses it as an excuse for his mistake?

Ya. I see his play in this game as 99.99% probable of being genuine.

I will point out that he

could

still be scum here but I just don't have a case on him any longer.

If you are 99.9% sure he is "being genuine" that, to me, implies you think he is 99.9% likely to be town. Yet you are leaving open the door to him being scum here. If you "don't see a case on him any longer", what probability do you think he has of being scum? What probability of scum does someone have to have before you normally vote them? What does their probability normally have to lower to before you unvote them?

Votecount
Kise - 2 (Starbuck, ortolan)
Spolium - 2 (Kmd4390, mykonian)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (magnus_orion)
mykonian - 1 (LlamaFluff)
Kairyuu - 1 (Spolium)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser,

cateraction

, Kairyuu, Benmage,

ZazieR

, Jebus, populartajo, Budja, Gorrad, Albert B. Rampage,

semioldguy

, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, PhilyEc, WeyounsLastClone, Lamont_Cranston

I must protect my fledgling Utopia.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ortolan]

myk: when did Mastin admit to not being Shinigami?

[ortolan]

tajo is town based on 583

[ortolan]

zwet: did you know Mastin was town before he died? and when did you find out he had been a tracker?

I agree that it was probably unnecessary/undesirable for you to claim

[ortolan]

myk's 675 is almost all information instead of analysis.

I type my posts in notepad as I read through every page. While he was still alive & while I was reading/catching up, Mastin's name was green in the vote counts, and I initially thought it meant that he was under mod-review because I assumed that any lynch/kill would have ended the day phase. But as I kept reading further into the thread, I noticed Mastin had been killed and his name was green to confirm his town alignment. I'm not sure whether I used post-preview, but I obviously did not go back to correct myself when I claimed that Mastin's name was green due to possible mod-review (or did I say everything in separate posts, orto?).

ok

Purely speculation on your part, although I admire how you scumhunt by leaving no stone unturned. Good observation, but are you implying that Magnus & myself somehow planned to have that little convo? Even if we were partners, there's no way we could communicate during the day (1) phase. I suppose it's not important/relevant for you to answer, since I don't have a reason to make a case against you (this is my way of saying you come across as pro-town), but feel free to address this question if you want.

You are ruling out the possibility of scum day-talking? Also why is the fact this is day one rather than any other day relevant to whether you might be able to daytalk as scum? Also why do you find me pro-town?

Kmd, why do you think zwet is lying but still have a neutral read of him? Whatever happened to lynch all liars?

[ortolan]

ortolan

<- Dont like his posts much, he points out what look like flaws in gameplay rather than scummy posts. I'd like to hear opinions from him to be honest.

This triggers bemusement as I have given ample opinions on who is scummy.

Coupled with mastin successfully destroying my day 1 gambits, no one stands out as particularly scummy, save lamont and myk. I've got nothing to latch onto.

What sort of gambits do you usually play (which you haven't been able to this game)?

Agree with Kise's 728 query of PhilyEc's read on Gorrad

Did I want to lynch Mastin when he was obviously lying?

What motivation does he have as town for lying? I'm not getting good vibes from Kmd I must say. I don't like a lot of his points in 731.

zwet (735): what's this about a fakeclaim?

cateraction makes same point as Kmd in 736.

See 757-758 (Kise's strange "I don't like tajo's vote but I'll follow it") and myk's reaction noted for posterity.

Agree with tajo's 772 (except that Steph quote is itself scummy imo).

ABR's 789 is stupid.

I could probably lynch mykonian now, just based on vibes/ my limited recollection

[ortolan]

I want to be a leader, not a follower

Unvote
Vote: mykonian

Votecount
mykonian - 4 (LlamaFluff,

cateraction

, Spolium, ortolan)
zwetschenwasser - 3 (populartajo, Kise, Albert B. Rampage)
magnus_orion - 2 (

ZazieR

, mykonian)
Kise - 1 (Starbuck)
Kairyuu - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Spolium - 1 (Kmd4390)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (magnus_orion)
ZEEnon - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, Kairyuu, Benmage, Jebus, Budja, Gorrad,

semioldguy

, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, PhilyEc

...
Forget everything I just said... we'll need to rethink our plan...
...
Stupid Matsuda...

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ortolan]

I think zwet is town and myk or Kmd are our lynch for today based on skimreading/gut

[ortolan]

Interested to see this ^^

[ortolan]

1) English is not Myk's first language. I think this makes his points look a little weaker than they normally would be; his defenses have less of an impact, his attacks are less convincing.

2) My read on him is as someone who is sincere but inexperienced. I don't get any malicious intent from his inconsistencies.

That is his standard scum play from what I've seen, he plays a lot less like that as town. I've played with him in two games where he's been scum (one where he was scum with me) and one where he was town and I've seen another game where he was scum. I probably have a preponderance of scum data for him but I still get a somewhat scummy vibe from the way he's played this game.

[ortolan]

although to be fair I get the impression he generally cops more flak when he is town than when he is actually mafia (much like myself actually )

I think he got nominated for a scummy for scum play in that game I saw but didn't play in (I might be wrong) and he wouldn't have been lynched in the other game he was scum in except he counter-claimed the doc, and in the game I was scum with him in we were going to win until the game got ruined Whereas the one time he was town he got mislynched day one. So yer, that does give me pause on this bandwagon.

[ortolan]

Drawn Together was the one where he was mislynched day one

mini 701 he counter-claimed vollkan to get him lynched day one, otherwise I really thought he was town (not that I really had a clue in that game, at least on day one), and we were both scum in Seraphim's first run of polygamist mafia, and were going to win until we got screwed by mod/player error. The other game was one I remember where he claimed miller as mafia when he got investigated by a cop and I think he got nominated for a scummy for it, I can't remember much else about it

[ortolan]

I re-read zEEnon's opening game posts to see if I saw where myk was coming from with his suspicions. It was definitely enough for me to leave my vote on myk (especially when you look at myk's posts around the same time). I am curious as to what he has to say about zEEnon now though.

Also, I'm not sure ZazieR ever explained what the reference to Open 145 in Post 131 was in aid of. ZazieR what was your reason for voting for zEEnon around that time, I never quite understood?

I am also still getting scummy reads from Kmd's posts, it's kind of a tonal thing. Aside from that him calling ABR town for trying to get zwet lynched is bizarre when not only is zwet often an easy policy lynch but ABR actually does this in every game anyway (tries to get zwet policy lynched), there's absolutely no way it's anything more than a null-tell and I would think tunneling on the same player in multiple games for policy reasons as at least anti-town anyhow.

That said I don't think I can really disagree with this read:

On a serious note, Lamont, ABR, and Zwet are all town.

Although on the other hand when I read LC's post I don't like the "obviousness" of this list at all.

Lurkers: Jebus, MBL, Seraph, Stepho
Scummy: Zee, Gorrad, ABR, Kai

And I am not sure, at this stage, why Gorrad is considered scummy; rather than, for example, a lurker.

So again, I'm not entirely opposed to the LC wagon, especially with the brazennes with which both Gorrad and MBL have voted him on the last page; I wouldn't expect scum to be so unconcerned with their appearance while wagoning a townie. myk and Kmd to a lesser extent are my other suspects.

Votecount
mykonian - 5 (LlamaFluff,

cateraction

, Spolium, ortolan, Kise)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, mykonian, Kmd4390, Stephoscope)
Lamont_Cranston - 5 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad, MrBuddyLee)
zwetschenwasser - 2 (populartajo, Benmage)
magnus_orion - 1 (

ZazieR

)
Kairyuu - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, Jebus,

semioldguy

, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Starbuck

I've finally returned to the human world.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ortolan]

Yer I did a read yesterday and got through a fair amount but accidentially closed the window on my post. It wasn't particularly insightful commentary anyway, I had critiques of 2 of myk's posts thinking they were still perfectly consistent with him being scum.

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

I think modkills automatically become anonymous neutral survivors.

Which hurts us, so I hope the mod will tell or the player who was told.

I'm surprised you'd incite someone else to potentially get mod-killed. You're not usually sloppy like that.

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

No.

Then I''ll assume that he was anti-Kira.

I agree though.

@ LC's case against ZEE in 1557. I simply do not understand his first point. ZEEnon denies Point 2 and it seems convincing, without checking the relevant game. Point 3 is terrible. Therefore very weak case. LC scummier. I've never seen a good case on ZEEnon. I never liked myk's suspicions of him and I believe he never backed them up after being called out on it (by me). He simply didn't comment on the matter any more after that point.

I do recall finding Kairyuu scummy for basically locking into a stalemate with LC and saying things along the lines of "I'm not unvoting you until one of us is lynched" etc. Doesn't seem to have much potential for productivity to me. He also at one point refused to update/re-list his points when LC prompted him to, which may be a sign of lazy scum. That said obviously I've never been a huge fan of LC himself.

[ortolan]

I don't like how myk is still apparently considering who he's going to vote for in 1624. That should be the last thing he's thinking about with so many votes on him.

[ortolan]

...actually nowhere near as many as I thought as I didn't realise the count got reset when PhilyEc was modkilled

Disregard that point

Vote: mykonian

[ortolan]

In reply to myk and zwet:

talking about who you might vote for is different to mentioning who you suspect.

At the time I thought he had ~9 votes on him (he didn't have that many, I was going from one of the previous counts and saw all these new votes without realising the vote count was reset after PhilyEc was modkilled).

Either way, I wasn't attacking him for giving his suspects before being lynched, I was attacking him because he was saying "I don't think I'll vote for zEEnon" and seemingly trying to put on a big show of thinking about who was worthy of his vote, when realistically he should have his attention on his ever-growing wagon. It looks like an attempt to feign towniness and "always scum-hunting" and pretending he is oblivious to the wagon on him at the time.

However I admitted I was wrong because I didn't realise that the wagon on him was only at about five votes at that point anyway. I don't see how you can feel your criticism of me was valid though, I retracted the statement in my very next post when I realised it was wrong and before anyone else had the opportunity to comment.

[ortolan]

Frankly, I don't think the Myk case holds much water. If y'all want to lynch him, so be it, but I wash my hands of it.

Why?

[ortolan]

Hmm. That's still scummy.

[ortolan]

Gorrad:

And yeah, KMD's pretty much summed up my thoughts. The wagon sucks. Tomorrow, regardless of the outcome, I want it remembered that I had no part in it. If y'all want to lynch, be my guest, I won't stop y'all. Obviously y'all see SOMETHING I don't, and maybe y'all are right. But I'm not involved.

Why is a pretty decent player sounding like newbscum....

Those are pretty much my thoughts. Only newb scum say "please don't associate me with this lynch (of a townie)". Why did you feel the need to point out that you specifically disliked the myk lynch. Why is you not supporting the wagon more important than the other people now voting myk?

[ortolan]

not* voting myk

[ortolan]

ZazieR: you were asking the relevant player to reveal the information after the mod reveal post already indicated he did not wish for PhilyEc's role to be made public. To me it seems if the person had responded it could well have lead to another mod-kill.

[ortolan]

the fact it said "neutral survivor". You also seemed to know that this wasn't his actual role prior to him being modkilled (therefore the mod had chosen not to reveal his actual role), because otherwise you wouldn't have needed to ask what it was.

[ortolan]

Mod: what happens if a player with a death note is mod-killed?

We'd deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Let's hope it's not necessary to find out.

[ortolan]

yes but you also asked if the player himself who'd been contacted would reveal it as an alternative to the mod. I'm aware this is probably a minor point of detail but as I said, it is sloppiness inconsistent with your meta as I'm aware of it

[ortolan]

it was still clearly not the player's discretion to choose in this case. I'd have no problems with you asking the mod.

[ortolan]

it was still clearly not the player's discretion to choose in this case. I'd have no problems with you asking the mod.

Cuddly Bear, think about it. A player told another his role. Why would the mod kill one of them, but not the other? Why not the one with the information? Or at least replace him?
To me, the answer is that the player who heard didn''t need to know the information. Which is only possible for scum (perhaps shinigami).

And there''s one other reason why I asked the player. However, I''m not allowed to tell.

This post is setting off my scumdar quite hard.

Firstly, obviously the mod is not going to punish someone for being an innocent victim of someone else's actions, especially when they immediately report it to the mod as was clearly done. At worst they would replace them. So that possibility doesn't even warrant consideration. Otherwise I think the assumption that the player is scum is possibly (though not necessarily) unjustified. Finally I don't see any plausible reason you could have which you "are not allowed" to reveal. Surely if you were in this situation you would have PM'ed the mod in the first place anyhow. I would like to know what the nature of this reason is if you are able to say without getting mod-killed, otherwise I will consider you scummy.

[ortolan]

Oh, and Cuddly Bear, if you disagree with my statement, please state why a player who has extra information regarding Phily and isn't trying to hint at the role name can possibly be anti-Kira.
Because the last time I got information regarding a different role, which I shouldn't have gotten (though it was due to a wrong mod PM) I was forced replaced.

Cuddly Zaz, so you are basically saying either the player is scum or was force-replaced?

[ortolan]

if I was feeling uncharitable I would say Kairyuu is trying to distance himself from a mislynch while tying himself to magnus_orion

[ortolan]

ZazieR, if I was feeling uncharitable, I'd say you are tunneling on semantics in a rather useless fashion.

But to answer your question, not having perfect knowledge of the setup means I don't know at this point in time whether my speculation is or is not valid. And yes, I am putting it forward to see what reactions I can get from other people; that's a very effective way of catching scum.

Also, if you get the impression that Kai is distancing himself from a misliynch, then why no unvote as you''re voting the player who Kai is distancing from according to this accusation.

According to this theory, Kai is distancing himself from a mislynch while tying himself to magnus_orion. This specific theory isn't compatible with the theory that myk is scum. So yes, one of them is wrong. But, as I said, not having perfect knowledge of the game I don't know which is correct. Many other possibilities are viable e.g. mykonian isn't a mislynch and Kairyuu is generally trying to draw votes away from his scumbuddies wagon, or they are both scum of different types, or Kairyuu is actually town. What actually gave rise to this theory is the fact that Kairyuu essentially said "well only me and magnus_orion are attacking him". This seems an odd and unnecessary thing to point out, it's clear who people are attacking by what they post, and he didn't add any new analysis in saying that. So I suspected possible scum trying to tie to townie. However the theory I presented is incompatible with Kairyuu and myk being mafia together. With a bit of re-working it might be.

TL;DR: the whole game is naught but speculation, and if you're doing a job you're going to be coming up with many theories which are incompatible with one another

Last, we had a discussion yesterday. Don''t you have anything to say about it now?

Not off the top of my head, should I have? Do

you

have anything to say about it? Otherwise why bring it up?

[ortolan]

doing your* job

[ortolan]

Unvote

Ooh, interesting

Genuine claim or last minute attempt to take the vig down with him by getting a counter-claim (don't think I've forgotten 701 )? Only time will tell.

[ortolan]

I'm not entirely convinced by myk's posts before the fact:

127

Lets get this straight: death gods don't seem the good guys to me. I don't think scum would claim them, this early. It just doesn't happen often. Third party, with some different wincon, is also not town.

I'm still trying to understand why he claimed.

219

Now you know about what I think, and I think the most important person, because of the claim, should be Mastin, but, while my vote on Magnus doesn't hurt, and could only be used to pressure Magnus by someone else, a vote on Mastin should be used more careful, I think, as it is later in the game, and should be a serious, and well reasoned vote.

That said he did repeatedly defend the vig after Mastin was killed. Although I've seen myk pull off a good fake-claim before. I'm torn.

Votecount
mykonian - 10 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, Lamont_Cranston, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, Stephoscope, Starbuck, MrBuddyLee, populartajo)
ZEEnon - 2 (Kmd4390, ZazieR)
Lamont_Cranston - 2 (Gorrad, Kairyuu)
Not voting: cateraction, mykonian, Benmage, Vi, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium, zwetschenwasser, ortolan

I am Kira.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ortolan]

yes, myk, what was your reasoning?

[ortolan]

I would indeed think that the player is more likely scum if he wasn't force replaced.
Also, if you disagree, see the first part of the quote.

I was kind of "meh" to this statement which was why I didn't comment on it. We don't know for a fact that the player in question

wasn't

force replaced, nor do we know the scum/town/neutral situation with PhilyEc himself. And my point does still stand about you asking the player as an alternative to the mod to out the information.

Also,

Mod: what happens if a player with a death note is mod-killed?

We'd deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Let's hope it's not necessary to find out.

This is NOT reassuring. On another note, Gorrad, why are you so sure that only one of the wagons is scum driven?

Why was this not reassuring zwet?

[ortolan]

this game is not modded by Tarhalindur

[ortolan]

the previous one was 12 hours earlier.

the mod might have done that in advance. OoOoOoOo

[ortolan]

Links please. I thought myko was a relative newbie.

No way. He is certainly fearsome as scum. And yes 701 was the game I was referring to.

[ortolan]

There was one where mykonian claimed miller as scum too, I'm not sure if that was Cops and Robbers or not

[ortolan]

Odd… did you somehow expect this claim or something… I know you felt him innocent, but myk being the day vig who killed mastin just checks out for you 100%...

Nice try. I haven't even said I believed his claim yet, nor did I say I thought the theory about Kairyuu was the most likely to be correct one (I qualified it at the time as ZazieR pointed out).

[ortolan]

Would you mind if I didn't tell if I'm one shot or not?

I didn't ask.

This sounds convincing enough and I can't really fault his logic that he's walking dead after claiming vig. Sooooooooo...

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

[ortolan]

hmm yer actually, that's a good point. Why would myk so hastily cut off discussion with Lamont like that?

[ortolan]

Lamont = Mastin, sorry

[ortolan]

Why can we not just play this with the optimal play strategy for vig claims I read recently- town nominate the scummiest person for him to vidge each day. If the scummiest person is him, he vidges himself. If he refuses, he gets lynched. That way we don't need to waste a lynch on him today. We need a new wagon imo.

[ortolan]

Also, if myk is fakeclaiming the real vig will just kill him tomorrow. Seriously, lynching him is stupid.

[ortolan]

myk don't respond to any accusations against you and get a new place for your votes please guys

[ortolan]

I would prefer to have the vig be able to kill who they feel like.

Ok (that person would be mykonian because he is fakeclaiming their role).

I still don't see how this lynch is optimal, regardless of the probability of mykonian lying about being the vig

[ortolan]

I'd be more inclined to think he is lying than that he is telling the truth

[ortolan]

It's a stupid lynch though

We risk the fact he might actually be the vig whereas if he isn't he's going to die soon enough anyway. Plus we get more info from wagoning someone else to a claim. I don't like how myk hasn't voted for anyone though after his claim.

[ortolan]

there's no point in him revealing more than is necessary about the rule

my approach is optimal and should be followed

[ortolan]

role*

[ortolan]

- Am I right in thinking that whole rules of death thing implied that myk got to choose who to give his death note too, and this person happened to be town?

Ok, I'm thinking scum don't need names to kill.

Pretty pointless specul@tion in a mafia game

And I am officially dropping the "OMG NO NAME CLAIMS" thing.

Um that's a pretty bad reason. One shini might have wierd win con or kill with names or something or scum might get to kill anyone whose names they know in addition to their normal night-kill. Makes me think u have something 2 hide

Kise's basing suspicion on the night-kill in 1999 is scummy, he could well have set that up.

Of those, the only one I am not scratching my head about is Zazie. Neither of the other two had contributed much. From this, I am going to draw that Zazie was the scum NK, and that cateraction and semi were killed by Shinigami trying to look pro-town.

also potentially scummy

Anyway, I'm here. These are my baseline reads from D1, in no particular order.

Scum
Cuddly Bear ortolan

I've been in 3 games with Vi, he correctly read me as town in the first two and inexplicably read me as scum in the third; it later turned out to be because he was scum. He is inexplicably reading me as scum here again and no doubt still thinks from experience I am an easy mislynch so I'm inclined to give him a fair dosage of scumpoints for this read (also no reasoning provided). Actually, this whole list is incredibly scummy and is pretty much at odds with what anyone else has posted; him having a scum-read on MBL for example is ridiculous, he's not posted any comment which can meaningfully be interpreted as scummy (because none of his posts can meaningfully be interpreted as

anything

all game. Also, in my experience with Vi as scum he usually goes after the easy policy lynches and Starbuck is a prime example of that. Also the implied reads on people based on "lurking" really set off alarm bells. Not sure how to interpret that list but those town reads on Kmd and Gorrad are also pretty inexplicable unless you look at it from a perspective of people he knows are unlikely to attack him if he doesn't attack them (and are normally difficult to lynch).

Following from that, we must take note that just because we have taken myko's death note, we CANNOT ignore him for the rest of the game. As he is a Shinigami, he is an eligible target for receiving a death note from another player, so if the scum or another Shinigami decide that he is a safe place to store their note temporarily or permanently then they could give it to him. Keep this in mind as we progress. myko is not to be ignored.

Agreed.

I'm actually getting the strongest scum-read from Vi because his play of dropping in occasionally with fake-looking scum-hunting lists comprised mainly of lurkers/policy lynches and keeping players like Kmd and Gorrad close to the bottom of the town list though they've done little to justify it this game (but are hard to lynch); looks far, far too close to Election Mafia.

Vote: Vi

At least until I see some decent cases on several of those people in the "scum list" that don't read like "well I think the town would be happy to be rid of this person".

[ortolan]

Ortolan, vi went after you day 1 in US Election mafia, and due to a mechanic involved in US election mafia, wasn't scum on day 1, nor did vi know that vi was going to become scum due to that mechanic.

Ok, could you point me to where he attacked me day one? On the end of day vote count he was the first voting for Max and that game is painful to navigate through. I have a distinct recollection of only being attacked day two that game.

However assuming I was wrong and he also attacked me (strongly) as town this leads me to an equally valid question- if in two out of three games you've been town and misread me as scum, why are you so happy to again misread me as scum this game? One would think if you were town you would be more apprehensive about again misreading me. I know you were keen to use the "you're not playing the way to do to your meta" call in that game so I'd very much like some justification for your scumread right this moment, I don't want to stay in the game purely so you can use me as a safe-lynch later on in the game, which I know is your favourite play as scum- line up your mislynches in advance.

And the issue I have with your "list" clearly isn't the simple fact it is a list, it is that your reads are completely the opposite of mine pretty much, and I don't viably see how you can have produced some of the reads you have if you were being genuine. Kmd does not feel town to me, yet you have him on your town list, and as Gorrad points out you finding him town doesn't make sense (some might say he's been deliberately anti-town, as he says). They are players who you have to gain by appealing to if you are scum however. Plus MBL has done nothing to give anyone a scum-read,

Gorrad ALWAYS looks like scum (and since you were in Election Mafia where he beat out seven Mafiosi/SKs for the Scum MVP title as a Town power role, you should know this), and it's entirely within character for him to loudly proclaim that It Should Be Remembered that he wasn't on a flipped nonTown's wagon.

Exactly. You're happy to give him the benefit of the doubt simply because he's conforming to what you characterise as his anti-town meta, without considering the possibility that he might perhaps subvert that meta as scum? And yet, you don't give me the benefit of the doubt having already misread me as scum twice out of three games.

Starbuck continues to make posts that are devoid of useful information.

This is

such

an easy reason for scum to give. You really are showing all the signs that make me increasingly confident you're scum.

I haven't seen a game where Kmd was scum

, but he doesn't look different from the game in Hell where he was Town,

Another easy meta argument.

[ortolan]

I need to read Steph (purely based on Llama's case) and Kise also

[ortolan]

2) Speaking on a personal level, I have absolutely no apprehensions about getting you out of my life. Replacing into this game was a colossal mistake on my part, in part because I never wanted to play another game with you after Election Mafia.

I feel entirely mutual about this actually, I'll do you a favour.

Mod: please replace me

[ortolan]

I just spent like 20 mins trying to work out the setup. Pretty damn complicated for a mafia game, but props for the setup design.

I didn't read the whole thing, mainly the section after I was replaced and then had a brief look in from time to time. MafiaSSK's claim was a bit silly I must say. First of all our role wasn't even a miller. Miller = investigates guilty, this role = random investigation result. Furthermore you actually find out not only when someone investigates you but what result they get. So optimal play I determined was just to wait until you get investigated (well better still would have been not to get investigated at all which was what I was aiming for) and as soon as you get notification, you can just claim e.g. "I know someone investigated me last night and got so and so result" (if the result is actually scummy) thereby avoiding outing the cop and hopefully avoiding getting lynched, because that's a strange ability for scum to have.

I didn't think I was too bad in this game when I was in it. I was wrong about tajo and MrBuddyLee being town, props to them, but I was right about mykonian (even though I stupidly unvoted on the balance of probabilities before he was lynched) and Vi being scum.

What were PhilyEc and Benmage's roles btw? Contacting people outside the thread is very poor, btw.

[ortolan]

I will also add that I think mykonian had a pretty difficult win condition and it seems strange that an SK (Xyl) can lose due to another faction achieving their non-mutually exclusive win condition.

[ortolan]

on the whole I have to say I think the setup worked very well considering how complex it was