The Sopranos: A Deadly Game (GAME OVER!)

[hohum]

/confirm

[hohum]

Vote Empking

FoS: Kise for bitching about wagons but voting empking anyways.

[hohum]

what's to read? It's page 2.

Clearly you had something to say about an early wagon forming and clearly you participated in said wagon, even if you removed the vote exactly one post later.

Am I missing something here?

[hohum]

Over? Hardly.

So if the first vote was your "joke vote" and the RVS is "almost over" are you satisfied with your second vote? If so, why?

[hohum]

I will stay on empking's wagon until I'm ready to get off of it.

Why do you think wagoning people is such a bad thing?

I'd like to point out to you that any special mechanics or power-roles aside, the only thing we have is our vote with which to pressure people. Also note that Empking (being empking) is a highly visible target for pressure votes.

[hohum]

"Out of Control" is a stretch. He's nowhere near lynch.

visible target meaning his he's widely recognized and his play style pisses a lot of people off. It's always a reason to poke him. Some times he drops useful tells some times he doesn't.

[hohum]

Merit is subjective. This early in the game pretty much all votes are baseless. I've seen plenty of early wagons produce useful results though.

[hohum]

Also, can you go into more detail as to why you believe your 2nd vote is so sound? Please quote for relevant context. Would you be happy right now if your vote resulted in a lynch?

[hohum]

what part of "large theme" makes it unclear that there's a boatload of people in this game?

"Oh I see your point" would have been a better way to save face.

[hohum]

@elvis_knits: You always build cases on people this fast and this early?

[hohum]

Building a shitty case is anti-town. THATS HOW.

QFT

Also note I merely asked her a question.

[hohum]

@elvis_knits: You always build cases on people this fast and this early?

Probably not, but I don't usually find so much that I dislike this early either. It all depends on the situation.

Is there something you don't like about my case on millar?

Yes. I think you're grasping at straws here. I have yet to decide whether or not you're doing this purposefully though.

[hohum]

zwet usually full claims. This is an improvement.

This is an improvement? hmm, well, fuck.

I agree with ek's assessment of zwet's play.

In other news:

unvote, voke elvis_knits

just to reiterate my point about her "case"

[hohum]

EBWOP: voke ==

vote elvis_knits

[hohum]

@kise:

Your posts don't really contain much content. You're simply posting in order to look busy. Uncool.

Major scum points for your State the Obvious post earlier.

[hohum]

I've answered a few questions directed at me, I've prodded a couple of people for information and I've posted short opinions from time to time. It's still pretty early in the game and I think everyone (especially you) is in a rush to form baseless opinions about others in the game.

Your preference for deflection instead of having a conversation with me like an adult is noted.

Your attempts to absolve yourself from any wrong doing over the al wagon is also noted, as is the hypocrisy of calling someone else out for the same thing

And your Many busy posts like this one.

and your pro-scum stance on early wagons

Fuck it. Obvscum.

Unvote, Vote: Kise

Prove me wrong.

[hohum]

in isolation you read like a ferret with ADHD.

[hohum]

I am not who you think I am. I am also capable of forming an original thought. If this is an argument you've used in another game to shut down someone else's lunacy then you get double the scum points for actually knowing better.

I provided links above, but if you really want the quotes:

Zwet looks like he's trying to clear himself in the event that Al flips town.

By saying:

Still, I don't see how Al is town, although I'm not saying that Al is scum.

You're
A) hedging your bet on Al's flip
B) Doing exactly what you just accused zwet of one post earlier

BTW, what kind of convo do you want to have?

One that doesn't involve immature knee-jerk reactions from you would be lovely. Thank you for asking; though judging by your reaction you'd much rather flame me than take me seriously. Do so at your own peril.

And your Many busy posts like this one.

How is that post of mine different from this post of yours? We both chose to rely on previous comments to justify our votes... It looks like the hypocrisy is more so on your side.

That post was designed to make a point and to provoke some sort of reaction out of elvis_knits. It didn't though and that's interesting to me on some level (though I have yet to figure out why) so it certainly isn't a busy post.

and your pro-scum stance on early wagons

Sure, because it's pro-scum of me to point out the peculiarity of a 4-person bandwagon, five hours into the game.

It is

ABSOLUTELY

pro-scum to tear apart someone's wagon before the town has gotten enough information out of it. The only way to properly judge a wagon is in hindsight, so at best what you've done here is impolite, at worst it's a newbie scum mistake. You're making it far more apparent which of the two is the case as time goes on.

[hohum]

I wasn't getting anything out of emp, sure. That's why I jumped off. But it still isn't your place to tear down other people's wagons.

How would you be able to reward me these points if you can't prove it? This is nothing more than a needless mischaracterization. There was no point in bringing this up, unless this is your petty attempt to throw another handful of dirt on my name.

You seem to just not get it. I'm not trying to be funny. I actually keep a point log in my journals when I play Mafia. It would probably serve you (and anyone else) a little better to pay attention and take notes on all your games. Point logs seem to nail scum better than 75% of the time as the game progresses, because the scum tend to stand out eventually.

As for the rest of your diatribe, meh: you don't really seem to be asking me anything as much as telling me off.

[hohum]

I like my vote. I think I'll keep it parked here for a while.

[hohum]

And I just want to clear one more thing up. I get the impression from the last few posts you've made that you believe I am angry or otherwise upset in some way. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm more amused by your antics than anything else.

You accused me of being "butt-hurt" and said "don't dish it out if you can't take it." You should follow some of your own advice. Based on your post-count alone you're a target. Get out of the spot light and let someone else do some scum hunting if you don't want people to critique your play style.

Anyways, I'm done feeding the trolls now. Que Sara Sara. What ever will be will be.

[hohum]

As for the rest of your diatribe, meh: you don't really seem to be asking me anything as much as telling me off.

Shut 'em down.

I'll let you think that if it soothes that giant ego of yours.

[hohum]

I'm sorry, I find it unlikely that Al and Millar are both scum, and I think that Millar has been much more scummy.

more al death please

I'd rather see kise lynched than al at this point.

[hohum]

I expected him to whine and bitch and drop scum tells like he usually does. I did to him what you're doing to zwet. I picked an easy target.

Since he barely reacted at all I decided it was time to move on.

[hohum]

yes, and yes.

Also, before you get all uppity and bent out of shape again, look at the timing of your own fucking posts. You were already bitching about the wagon before Empking even had a chance to respond.

[hohum]

I don't need your consent to make observations. I don't answer to you.

That's implying that I'm scum who wants to go for an easy (mis)lynch on zwet if he's town. If that's what you did with Emp.. then you're not going to make it to Day 2, that's all I'm going to say.

I'm not implying that. You're putting words into my mouth now. You explained the vote for zwet and I can accept that, but you have failed to explain anything else.

Votes are an effective way to get people responding as wagons are an effective way to put pressure on people to respond -- yes, even early wagons. You're invalidating the only tool the town has to pressure people by preemptively saving people. Pack mentality in this game is a GOOD thing, not a BAD thing.

The whole ever loving point is that he had no incentive to respond to ANYONE voting for him with you RUSHING in to be his knight in shining armor.

Your stance on Zwet is in defiance of Occam's Razor in that you're assuming too much. You really don't have a whole heap of proof, and if you weren't so vocal about Empking's wagon I would have kept that opinion to myself.

[hohum]

It wasn't susipicion of anything empking had done at that point (as you pointed out he hadn't even posted yet). It was as you put it a baseless vote, still a vote designed to provoke a reaction (as a properly constructed wagon should)

Not having a case is better than having a bad case and your case on zwet certainly qualifies as a bad case.

Hypothesizing at this point won't further the discussion and actually reeks of an attempt to deflect. The only way to properly judge a wagon is in hindsight and you're doing the town a grave disservice by picking the wagon apart.

I'd be happy to sit here and have game theory discussions with you but we're just going to start going around in circles here pretty soon. The fact is: you're just plain wrong.

I'm still lost on this post. Could you elaborate on your vote and your "point"?

Simple. I didn't like how fast she constructed her case. Fast and early cases are usually either made of fail or driven by scum. My letting her know I disapproved was designed to provoke a reaction so that I could figure out which and make a note of it accordingly. When she didn't respond to me the first time I figured a vote might get her attention. When she didn't respond to me after the vote, I put a note about it in my journal so that I could remember to try and extract reasoning later on in the game with the benefit of hindsight.

This post does surprise me. Kise has been posting content, and there are many other players who are barely even posting. From first view, hohum is the player I'd say isn't posting content. But reading his posts more focused, I can see some content in them, it's just hard to pull out what he's saying with how he says it. His push against Kise for "busy" posts is a little suspicious.

The post was partly designed to provoke a reaction from Kise and it did with great success. To that extent I'm happy with the result.

[hohum]

For all we know, I could be your boss. That'd be ironic as hell.

Is that a soft claim tucked away in the form of a joke? I'll go ahead and add that to my list of reasons to push for your lynch.

[hohum]

There is no way the bandwagon would have been pushed to a lynch,

QFT

[hohum]

The post was partly designed to provoke a reaction from Kise and it did with great success. To that extent I'm happy with the result.

Lol.. trying to entrap others, I see.

How do you suggest we go after scum then?

Also, has anyone [else] ever been in a game where a quick bandwagon actually did produce a valuable result, and not a mislynch?

I was in just such a game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8657

Hint: My alt is dcorbe

The scum was caught and lynched thanks to the quick construction of an early wagon which resulted due to a response to a random vote. The scum team in this game tried to save the lynchee by protesting the wagon.

[hohum]

POOR PLAY IS ANTI-TOWN

God I go away for several months and you people STILL haven't learned that.

IF SOMEONE IS PLAYING POORLY THEY ARE WORKING AGAINST THE TOWNS BEST INTERESTS

Honestly, sometimes you have to lynch bad town players to get them out of the way. Right now, Al is either bad town, or worse mafia.

Do you favor D1 policy lynches? What situations is it advisable to lynch on policy vs lynching suspected scum and why? Please elaborate on what you think can be gained from early policy lynches vs late policy lynches.

[hohum]

Unvote

[hohum]

A) I don't like the fact that mneme answered a question not directed at him before the person it was directed at had a chance to respond.

B) ZONEACE didn't really address the question to my satisfaction.

For the record though I agree with mneme's position and would pose this follow up question to Zoneace:

Who do you find suspicious and why?

[hohum]

A) I don't like the fact that mneme answered a question not directed at him before the person it was directed at had a chance to respond.

B) ZONEACE didn't really address the question to my satisfaction.

For the record though I agree with mneme's position and would pose this follow up question to Zoneace:

Who do you find suspicious and why?

Al, for his apparent lack of knowledge of something pro-town person should know.

Zwet for something I can't remember right now, but i'm fairly sure actaully happened,


and

your

my mom for being a filthy whore. You can come fuck my sister if you want to.

You guys can lynch al all you want to but we've still got a week left to talk about other people. We should use the time wisely.

You don't find anyone else suspicious, for any reason at all?

Do I really need to remind such an obviously experienced player that Anti-Town =\= Scummy?

[hohum]

In other words, you're tunneling on a policy lynch, and if al flips town, it's going to look as if you're scum hiding behind policy. I would like to see you at least attempt to scum hun in earnest.

[hohum]

EBWOP: at least attempt to scum hunt in earnest before deciding that a policy lynch is the way to go.

[hohum]

@Mod

a round of prods would be lovely at this point. My prod wish list:

Flameaxe
fuzzylightning
Empking
cjmiller
SSF352
Sir Tornado
Tom

[hohum]

passive aggression will get you nowhere. well, besides the top of my list for the next policy lynch

And being a massive question-dodging tool will get you nowhere besides the top of my list for the next scum lynch.

[hohum]

Your fear mongering is noted. Now answer the fucking question.

[hohum]

You too can cyber somewhere else please? Aggressive text sex ain't fun

You're not even remotely helpful. Either start scum hunting or shut up and wait to be prodded.

nope im good.

There's absolutely no reason for a pro-town player to be so evasive. It is decidedly anti-town. By your standard you should be policy lynched. If you disagree, then you need to explain why you're so special and al is such a fuckwit.

[hohum]

You may not like me but you still have to deal with me. Feel free to /out yourself in any games I join in the future.

[hohum]

or i could just lynch you in any game i join in the future.

Full of ourselves, aren't we? If you think you can manage, go right ahead. If you'd stop being so stubborn and realize that just maybe if you humor me and answer a couple of my questions I might just be satisfied with the answers and go away. You're bringing all of this unwanted attention on yourself.

[hohum]

You're acting like you've got something to hide.

[hohum]

No, what I'm doing is trying to get a read off of you in earnest, since you seem to have a minimalist approach.

What you're doing is being evasive, throwing out appeals to emotion, OMGUSing me, actively refusing to scum hunt and hiding behind policy to lynch a player whom you clearly don't like. None of which is being manufactured by me.

[hohum]

wouldn't i have to you know, FOS or vote you or something to OMGUS?

You want to argue semantics now?

and your mom for being a filthy whore.

That's a little OMGUSy, but could also be interpreted as a joke.

passive aggression will get you nowhere. well, besides the top of my list for the next policy lynch

That definitely qualifies as you sticking your tongue out at me. Also: very dodgy

that's not gonna go well for you when I flip town, and you are shown to have lead the cause against me.

Appeal to emotion by way of scare tactics.

Im not actively refusing to scum [hunt].

Yes you are. You'd rather get into a long and protracted argument with me than do anything even remotely useful.

im actively refusing to answer your questions. again, you're taking something that is only related to you, and trying to turn it into something bigger. AKA manufacturing suspicion.

you suck at lying.

I'm not lying. I'm pointing out why you fail. You've barely interacted with anyone else and you're doing it on purpose just so that you can use that argument against the first person that calls you out.

[hohum]

I approve of where Locke Lamora is headed with inHimshalibe

[hohum]

dont forget the attempt to buddy up to me earlier

[hohum]

I definitely wouldn't go as far out on a limb as to say that zoneface is town. I think there's a better than 50% chance that al and zoneface are of opposite alignment but that's just an assumption. I have him leaning scum in my notes and that's why I'm harassing him.

elvis: you're assuming too much.

[hohum]

Elvis: do you believe that his opinion of my alignment should factor in to my decision making process? If so, please explain why.

[hohum]

What's your opinion of his alignment?

[hohum]

I'm not sure his allignment, but his combative attitude doesn't make me think he's scum, and I think you're getting caught up in his attitude and fighting just for the sake of fighting.

You don't think my reasoning for my opinion is valid? Please point out where I fail.

Note that I am using relative terms at this point, such as "leaning scum" and you're using absolute terms "he is" or "is not" scum.

[hohum]

Elvis: The only thing that I see you're doing right now is making wild assumptions and trying to paint my position on ZONEACE as one of two things: Either more hardline than it really is and/or driven by emotion. Your answers to my questions sounds as if you are trying to game me a little bit so that you can figure out which direction you want to push it in.

If I've got it wrong and you simply disagree with me then I need to know why, so that I may have an opportunity to pause for consideration.

I really need you to clarify though. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your refusal to even acknowledge my vote earlier combined with your persistence about millar makes it look as if you're A) defending ZONEACE and B) looking for easy lynch targets instead of scum hunting.

[hohum]

I felt justified in my postings. It's now on the record for everyone to see that he clearly does not want to scumhunt. The argument died down on its own and didn't need a moderator.

I don't like zoneace talk of policy lynches, although I know people use them and it doesn't automatically make them scum. I tend to think it's lazy and favors scum, but I don't think anyone who agrees with policy lynches is necessarily scum. Mostly what I have seen from zoneace is him being confrontational and I know that's how he is, so I don't see anything odd about it.

The above sentence is exactly what I mean by wild assumptions. You're putting words in my mouth in order to paint me in a slightly more negative light.

Unfortunately for you I've said this twice now ITT, so it's also on the record. I'm supportive of the practice of policy lynches but it's a decision that needs to be made as group, not by one loose cannon who clearly has a personal vendetta with al.

Scum can and also do hide behind policy lynches so calling him out on it is absolutely the right thing to do whether or not you agree with the practice.

I said it before and I'll say it again: Your case on millar seems contrived, and I don't see that you've done much other scum hunting. You pop in from time to time and voice your distaste. I don't necessarily disagree with you; however, as you put it to kise earlier: it seems very disingenuous.

I would probably keep my mouth shut and let you go right on trying to pressure him if you had simply taken a few sentences to respond to me earlier, even if it was simply to tell me to piss off.

[hohum]

Are you going to do *ANYTHING* to help?

[hohum]

This above posts shows you're really not even paying attention. Do you actually even care who gets lynched and why?

You haven't been my only focus; not by a WIDE margin.

a few pages ago you called the al lynch a policy lynch. Now you're trying to play it off like you've bothered to build a case. Which is it? It can't be either or when it suits your whims and since the two are mutually exclusive it can't be both.

[hohum]

EBWOP: The above post

[hohum]

I never called Al a policy lynch


i said i would policy lynch albert.


different person.


do keep up.

Who the fuck is albert?

1. Flameaxe
2. SSF352
3. mneme
4. rajrhcpfreak
5. Empking
6. al_kohaulec
7. fuzzylightning
8. zwetschenwasser
9. millar13
10. AshMC1984
11. inHimshallibe
12. CJMiller
13. MonkeyMan576
14. ZONEACE
15. Kise
16. Locke Lamora
17. elvis_knits
18. Porochaz
19. Sir Tornado
20. Tom
21. Hohum
22. killa seven

Why did you wait so long to correct me when I've clearly been talking about the al wagon the entire time and why all the question dodging?

[hohum]

is millar13 albert?

Now I'm fucking pissed off at you and this entire game. You shouldn't assume that people are going to know all about the inside references to your little fag clique and are going to want you to clarify shit. When you sit there and argue with me for hours on end instead of giving me simple answers of course I'm going to come after you.

Jesus fucking christ, you're a moron.

[hohum]

EXCEEDINGLY poor play on your part. But at least I don't think you're scum anymore.

[hohum]

Why did you wait so long to correct me when I've clearly been talking about the al wagon the entire time and why all the question dodging?

Just want it noted for the record.

I'm going to take a less active role in this game from this point on.

[hohum]

I didn't say I wasn't going to participate, you stupid fuck.

Less active role meaning less than the break-neck rate of posting I've maintained in this game so far.

[hohum]

*brake

[hohum]

okay. I'm not angry anymore now that I've smoked. I apologize for my conduct.

[hohum]

thread stall.

[hohum]

great job zoneace and hohum. you killed the thread. now get on the millarwagon and lets get rolling.

why millar and why not the active wagon?

[hohum]

but there should still be some good evidence on this bandwagon if the town (like zoneace & hohum) feels like they can distract the thread with their pissing contest then resume the bandwagon because "its the biggest", there should be some reasoning behind it.

I really didn't suggest anything. All I did was ask you a simple question.

I don't care of al gets lynched or not. There's plenty of case material documented against him, so whether his wagon gets resumed or not is inconsequential to me but if I had suggested it what would that have told you about my alignment and why?

I do think there are better lynch targets.

You also suggested resuming the Millar wagon. How does that differ from my or Zoneface's suggestion of resuming the al wagon?

...

...

...

Someone doesn't bother reading the thread the whole way through before posting a reply...

twisting my words as well I see

Nobody is twisting your words. You did in fact put out the idea for a mass claim.

D1 massclaims are rarely helpful. Even flavor claims this early is pushing it. This is blatant role fishing.

[hohum]

Your boo?

I'm sure kmd would have a problem with that.

Secondly in a game this size it's simply a courtesy to the rest of us for you to keep the multi-posts to a minimum. That's why I pointed it out.

[hohum]

mneme: see rule #2.

The deadline (I would imagine) is 3 weeks from this post

which means we're toast by tomorrow.

It would seem as if our only lynch options at this point are millar and al.

Unvote, Vote millar

Anyone else would require too much effort to refocus the town.

[hohum]

we're going to have issues going into tomorrow because too many people are lurking.

[hohum]

yeah, I don't like that last vote. Assume nothing that hasn't already been stated by the mod. When in doubt always fall back to the original written instructions.

If we do get caught up in a deadline I look forward to lynching you tomorrow.

[hohum]

so you think millar has been less scummy and unhelpful than cjmiller?

[hohum]

The point is it isn't just a generic rule in this game. It's clearly stated on the first page that this game is being run with fixed deadlines. Whether or not MOS has been lenient in the past borders on mod gaming. If the mod really does lift the deadline then I don't mind a little bit of refocusing (since a large part of the week was eaten up to squabbling, my fault) but as of right now we can't assume the deadline is going to be lifted.

The bottom line is deadline is a horrible time to pressure vote anyone. You're just looking to introduce a whole bunch of distraction.

If cj really isn't going to contribute, he can be looked at tomorrow along with the rest of the lurkers.

[hohum]

If you really want to get the scum, change your votes now.!

Plea to emotion.

[hohum]

six of one, half dozen of the other. It's still a logical fallacy. I wish you'd stop posting just to post and start contributing to the discussion.

[hohum]

I count 11. You're at L-1

[hohum]

I'm starting to think that both of our mods are just simply MIA.

[hohum]

@Flameaxe

I see you're online right now. How about posting, even just to indicate that you intend to contribute at some point.

[hohum]

we should still lynch millar.

[hohum]

*sigh*

thanks for letting him claim, jackass.

Millar: It isn't too late to follow suit during twilight and get a claim in so we can discuss it at least. Hopefully you can beat the mod back before the topic is locked.

[hohum]

I have a feeling we should take a *REALLY* close look at zwet tomorrow.

[hohum]

Scummy "The Hammah" Valentine over there

[hohum]

I'm not assuming anything. I think there's a good chance he's scum, that's why I pushed for his lynch. But there's an established procedure on MS for bringing a wagon to a lynch, and that usually involves the lynchee claiming.

What if he were a claimed mason, would you lynch him then? What if he claimed something confirmable if we kept him alive another day?

[hohum]

zwets: You? Getting a clue? you must be joking.

[hohum]

I don't really care what he says he wants to do. That's irrelevant. I only care what he does -- and what he just did certainly does warrant at least a little bit of attention.

killa seven: do you disagree?

[hohum]

is this going to take much longer? How is it that we have 2 mods and nobody pays attention to us.

[hohum]

This is starting to border on epic levels of fail.

[hohum]

Bah and/or Go Town!