California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

/confirm

I (we?) will change our avatar very soon.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Done

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Done

Pffft.


Needs more Deathmask Nezumi.

_____/

Image removed. Please refer to the Rules regarding allowed tags. - Mod

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Whee schizophrenia

/confirm

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

/confirm

Did I do this already?

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I agree zwet is nervous. He has previously stated DGB can read him accurately but when she has merely reiterated this in this game he responds with "you are lying".

Also

You silly. You're one of the few people who can get accurate reads on me,

but this is ridiculous.

Unnecessarily strong and self-conscious phrasing compared to how zwet usually says things. There's a good chance he's scum.

are you willing to lynch zwet this scene based on those statements then? if so, those are awful reasons.

also, i agree that MafiaJin shouldn't reveal if they know the AP or not.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

are you willing to lynch zwet this scene based on those statements then? if so, those are awful reasons.

This = scummy.

how so?

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

People are scumhunting in the extremely early game, which is a good thing,and you seem to be jumping way ahead to "are you really willing to lynch him just for that?", which just seems odd; obviously no one is going to lynch yet, we can't anyway. So why are you trying to discourage people from scumhunting?

Also, as far as it goes, I think the attacks against Zwet make sense here. They're not especially strong, but they're logical.

From his statement, "There's a good chance he's scum.", I assumed that he would be willing to lynch since I know that I would lynch someone who I thought there was a good chance was scum.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Also I'm most definitely not discouraging scumhunting, just disagreeing with his thoughts

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Also to all multiheads, it would be helpful if you indicated who was making which post at the bottom of all posts.

I fully agree with this statement. It will help the town immensely to sign your posts if you're part of a multihead/hydra, because otherwise it gets way too easy to do things like "head X: (weird comment that needs clarifying)" "other player: What did you mean by that?" "head Y: (something completely unrelated)" "other player: Why didn't you answer my question?" "head Y: I can't, because it's not me" "other player: How was I supposed to know that?"

And then it's also easy to flat-out lie about that as scum and confuse/mislead the town.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Don't really mind it now, but ftr, I'm not going to be singing posts in the on-camera thread.

That's fair enough, seeing as we should stay in-character there. I just like making sure that these misunderstandings of identity don't happen too often.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Are you sure that being on camera means you can't even see the off stage thread? I can't tell from the rules and I would like clarification. If it does, then gaspar's suggestion is an eminently sensible one. I can't see any reasonable way scum could manipulate such a thing without entirely outing themselves, so I propose we simply pick randomly, and I don't see any reason to waste time: Photography is 1, audiography is 2.



Secondly, I don't really like signing posts as a hydra (for meta, see me as frog dodging hydra with Jdodge in Adel's recently finished DHSDSMM games). I don't think it helps with meta as much as might be supposed, since many posts we'll make this game will probably contain composites of ideas suggested by all three of us and it may affect meta in other subtler ways too (for example, frequency and detail of posting might be changed by the fact that I have two partners to bounce ideas off - either it could keep me more interested in the game or mean that I am more careful between posts.) However, I don't think it's actively detrimental to sign posts and dahill/cow have already said they think it's a good idea to, so there would be little point in me holding out.

I like a zwetvote. His play reminds me of my early scumplay, in particular newbie 297 (an air of trying too hard).

Oh, and I guess this is obvious but we should avoid condorcet ties if at all possible since we'll only get a scumlynch if both players are scum. In other words, an almost certain mislynch.

-Shanba

Dice tags removed. Please refer to the Post Content section of the Rules regarding allowed tags. - Mod

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

If I had to choose someone to be lynched, right now, it would be him. That doesn't entail that I wanted him lynched immediately, without further opportunity to provide more tells as to his alignment

ah ok gotcha now. also, i can't be "downplaying tells" if i don't think they're tells in the first place. i have never played with zwet before iirc (although i know his bad reputation) and these tells that people are saying he's showing seem to come from what they've seen of him in previous games. on that note, can someone link to game(s) where he's shown this behavior before?

on another note, Zorblag's song/message pairings is a good idea but someone who's On Camera should really copy them down because it could be too easy for everyone to mix up which is which and scum would take advantage of the situation.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Gaspar, why are you so interested in MafiaJin?

Is it not a possiblity that he could simply just be a player with just bad logic?
If so, why is bad logic scummy?

Thok, why is zwet below No Lynch? Is it simply because you dislike GoofballsAndBalloons' push on him? If so, why is no lynch preferable to losing a player who is, based on meta, usually a distraction to the town?

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

In other news, in the on camera thread, curiouskarmadog seems to be giving the town pretty clear information about which is the right and wrong way to go. It'll be interesting to see if the other advocate goes along with that or not, but unless both advocates are scum, I doubt he's lying. Which makes me wonder about all the people who seem to doubt him, unless they're just role-playing; it's hard to tell.

I also noticed this, but the question is, is Wiggin going to do the same thing? It's quite possible that the advocates will advocate for the other. I feel like we shouldn't jump to conclusions quite yet, because we don't know what the deal is there.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I agree with Gaspar on Off Stage being more important overall than On Camera but we definitely shouldn't ignore it entirely.

As for On Camera, I don't like hewitt's immediate dismissal of CKD's advice. It just seems strange to pick an advocate straight off the bat after only seeing one choice.

After discussing with here is our (policy) vote

-dahill

Vote: Goofballsandbaloons

, Zwet, [People], No Lynch, Bagel Eating Cowfrog

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

What I didn't mention at the time was that although it's a bit ambiguous I think that the rules indicate that we'll learn after the scene is over whether or not the choice was a good one or a bad one. If we do end up with two scum advocates here and they both agree and it was bad advice we'll know that we can lynch both of them.

Actually I don't think the rules mentioned whether the choice will be revealed as good/bad at the end of the scene or at endgame. I just assumed at endgame.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

DGB, I believe you are mistaken in assuming anything based on just a confirmation post, but whatever floats your boat. I, now, think that based on the serious tone of your early posts (not the case in your scum games) that you're 55% town in my eyes. I'd like to know how communication with on-stage players would in any way help them make a decision (since they certainly can't help us).

Why didn't you say this first time?

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Mod: Votecount plz

Vote: Goofballsandbaloons, Zwet, [People], No Lynch, Bagel Eating Cowfrog

Does this mean you think the DGB/Zwet interaction is some sort of scum gambit?

-PZ

No the DGB vote was mainly a policy one and my other two heads thought Zwet to be scummy so when I asked if I could vote for DGB they agreed but requested that I put zwet as second

Also, interesting developments On Camera..it looks like Ckd claimed to be some kind of neutral with a choice to turn innocent or evil. I see no reason not to trust him right now since mith said the choice will be revealed as good/bad at the end of the scene so if he's misleading us we'll just lynch him Scene 2.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Talk about peer pressure... DGB, please elaborate on your other suspicions besides me.

What is this post referencing? I don't see any new DGB posts about you since the last time you posted. And what do you mean by peer pressure?

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

KY Krew and Rawr Hydra need to post.

I don't really see any benefits of lynching (or attempting to lynch) Mr. Grey at this time and I think we should focus on known players at the moment.

Good call on the soundtrack.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Read the thread.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I don't think it really makes a difference, as DGB's "case" isn't one I can particularly defend against.

SO why make the post after all?

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

uh, that was shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

New thoughts on CKD:
I think I've got it pretty clearly now. If he drives, he will turn into some kind of anti-town alignment the next day (Mafia?, SK?). If Valentine drives, he'll remain innocent but probably die somehow.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Also, as for my thoughts on MafiaJin I'm still undecided on their alignment. I could see them as either opportunistic scum or a typically impulsive SSK. As I told my other heads, I want to see more of their actions before I make a firm decision.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I'm not sold. My gut is telling me this is overblown (and I'm incredibly wary of slips anyway). I don't see that his actions in putting himself on stage are the massive crime that Gaspar is making them out to be (at best a mistake, though). I don't feel the slip is particularly worthwhile. In short, I'm not a fan of the wagon.

Zwet, otoh, I think is looking pretty damn scummy. His post rebutting DGB is unusually long and detailed for him, and was already his second post addressing the situation; he's worried enough about it that he has to address it twice before giving any thoughts on the game. Yet when I quizzed him about it, he claimed that it was impossible to defend against anyway. So why spend such effort trying (and yes, for zwet that was a relatively large amount of effort). Then there's the buddying up to DGB, the person attacking him, which screams scum to me. I really think zwet is a much better lynch than MafiaJin.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

...And this is the part where we are schizophrenic. I'm not as skeptical on the MafiaJin wagon as Shanba, but I do agree that Zwet is a much more worthwhile wagon. He's buddying like it's his job. Zwet, besides MafiaJin who else do you suspect at the moment, specifically Off Stage?

-dahill

Unvote
Vote: Zwet

, KY Krew, Rawr Hydra, [People], Mighty Orbots, ShadowLurker, No Lynch, Bagel Eating Cowfrog

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Zwet, besides MafiaJin who else do you suspect at the moment, specifically Off Stage?

in case you missed it

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I'm gonna have limited access for the next couple days so most posting will be thru ipod
Agreeing that KY comment: "everyone act protown" is scummy but I don't think they're distancing SL.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Snap judgement: KY Krew is a decent if unspectacular wagon.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I think it would be hard to figure that one out. What exactly are we trying to convey here?

Thumbs up...a woman driving a car...

The message we're sending is pretty straightforward.
It's really starting to bother me that you're not reading the game

Still content with our zwet vote

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Zwet, besides MafiaJin who else do you suspect at the moment, specifically Off Stage?

in case you missed it

-dahill

again..

It is becoming increasingly more and more apparent to me that zwet is scum.
He has done literally no scumhunting

whatsoever

, unless you call a one-liner agreeing with Gaspar "scumhunting". His posts clearly show that he hasn't been paying attention to the game. It seems to me that he's trying to play out the "confused about game mechanics" for as long as he can so he can continue to drift along under the radar with no content.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I suspect KY Krew.

May I ask why? (Not that I disagree just wondering what your reasons are)

I think I said that. And while it has taken me some time to get used to the mechanics, I am keeping up with both threads (although it's hard for me to interpret what's going on onstage).

Thanks for proving my point

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

It seems to me that he's trying to play out the "confused about game mechanics" for as long as he can so he can continue to drift along under the radar with no content.

that one.

your answer to my question was...?

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

If we're sending in the KY Krew, we should probably tell CKD to fire MafiaJin, because even if I'm not convinced of him being scum just due to his horrid logic, I definitely don't trust his judgement and would like him to be fired.

I also agree with dahill about zwet

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Note to self: one game with Zwet should be enough for the next year or so.

I, too, would like you to honor BridgesandBaloons' request to have a condorcet (with explanations) in your next post.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

According to Thok's list, he'd rather not have a lynch at all than lynch zwetschenwasser, gaspar or elmosaurian. I'm not really comfortable with that. I'm also not comfortable with the fact that he hasn't done any scumhunting since his condorcet vote/post thing.

Zwet seems to have disappeared completely which is utterly bizarre, given what I've seen of his playing style before. It might be a sitewide trend for him to lower activity, though, which is something I need to check.

I have bad gut feelings on Gaspar too (wooh can we form a club or something?) The more I mull over it, the more I really hate his push on MafiaJin for an action which seems to me to be at most mildly scummy. (Sidenote: possible bussing push on zwet)

The on camera thing seems a complete mess, and I don't understand how anyone can possibly think it is a difficult decision. Talilan seems to be coming round at last, though.

I feel like we're playing with half the cast, since we're minus all on camera people and minus a couple of players (seraphim and rawr hydra, then thok, KY krew and Shadowlurker are all kinda sitting in the background too. I think SL looks town though.)

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

at the people On Camera. I'm starting to think they have forgotten that the decisions they make will affect the endgame, as a few of them are pushing for choosing Locke.

Right now I'd be fine with either a KY or zwet lynch (preferably zwet). Zwet, have you got around to answering mine or anyone else's questions yet?

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Is your concern more that I have any people below no lynch, or that I have those specific three below no lynch? Early day 1 that's basically saying "I don't think a random wagon on these people is helpful".

The former. Basically, you're saying you'd rather not lynch anyone today than lynch these three people, which is bizarre given the sitewide meta of lynch at all costs.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Thok, from what I've seen of him, isn't this quiet and doesn't post so quietly, even with excuses.

lol hypocrisy

do you realize that this also applies to you pretty much exactly?

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I agree that Thok is being quieter than usual, as well. That's not the issue.
zwet was directly relating Thok's quietness to being scum, while Thok didn't seem to being doing the same to zwet just making a note of his sparse posting. zwet quite obviously contradicted himself by calling someone scummy for repeating his own actions.

Our vote on zwet isn't "cheap". We put on him because he's...scummy. This isn't a policy vote. Also, I believe it was Zorblag who placed the vote on zwet not Papa Zito, iirc.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Your current thoughts on the KY Krew wagon vs. the zwet wagon would be much appreciated.

Both are good wagons and we would switch over to the KY wagon if needed. However, as of now, I still see no reason why zwet isn't scum and he has not done anything to show me otherwise. You brought up a point that if zwet was scum then he would've been bussed like crazy by now, but that doesn't have to be the case. Every game I've been in with you, you focus in on bussing and distancing to a ridiculous extent and I don't think either happen as much as you say they do. Yes, they will happen in a mafia game at some point but I think you exaggerate it. Keep in mind, I don't think you're scum because of this but just reconsider not being as close-minded.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Short post since im on ipod. Blah that was bad. He goes On Camera at a time which conveniently avoids his lynch AND he plans on convincing them to pick ckd? I also don't like zwet's defense of him that's basically saying it's such a scummy action that scum wouldn't risk doing it.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

A think a pic of their avatar or of Kentucky with a big red X over it should suffice but I agree we should wait to see their actions first.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Way too much hesitancy in that post compared to your earlier rantings for my lynch and a claim and such.

Interestingly, for my money Glork's switch here is the first time he has made a move that's actually felt pro-town to me.

Finding it tough to articulate this, but I don't think Talilan is scum. Possible that I've been buddied up to successfully, but it's more that given their explanation for how events unfolded (in particular that they didn't have the rules in front of them) it makes less sense to me that they were trying to mislead the town and more sense that they had legit forgotten that there was one good and one bad choice. Considering how many rules violations we've had, it's pretty clear that even here, with the rules in front of us we're having trouble following them, and indeed have had a significant meta discussion.

I want more pressure on Thok. Conciliatory tone feels off to me. Need to consult with my other heads, though. In the meantime, not as certain as I was on zwet.

- Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I keep noticing that practically nobody takes up my discussions about (i) why I think John Locke might very well be lying, and (ii) why Valentine is being so vague.

I'll bite.

How is this relevant right now? We can't lynch the people on stage. We can't communicate with them either - we've used our stuntman and our picture guy, and any more stuff we send will just be sending mixed messages. We have three or so days until deadline hits. Surely, it makes far more sense to discuss today's lynch rather than tomorrow's, which is the implicit requirement of discussing the on camera stuff.

OTOH, I also completely disagree with you. I think a lot of the vagueness is people trying to speak in character. This is what valentine said "

I wasn't given any information other than I should be the one to drive. " To me, this is a pretty clear and unequivocal statement: Valentine (panzerjager, for reference) was sent a pm that said something along the lines of "you are the one who ought to drive." He speculates that maybe Locke is asking him to drive because driving might lead to his death (bus asplodes or summat.) That's why he claims to be wary. But apart from that, that's all the information he has - that he should drive. He doesn't know the consequences of the choice. If he claims otherwise later, he's contradicting himself. When he talks about choosing to stay quiet, he is not referring to anyinfo he has - rather to his posts in thread. IOW, any confusion in Valentine's play seems to be related to the ongoing confusion that on camera people are having anyway - a) that mith won't lie, and b) that there is one good and one bad choice.

I keep noticing that practically nobody takes up my discussions about (i) why I think John Locke might very well be lying, and (ii) why Valentine is being so vague.

I'll bite.

How is this relevant right now? We can't lynch the people on stage. We can't communicate with them either - we've used our stuntman and our picture guy, and any more stuff we send will just be sending mixed messages. We have three or so days until deadline hits. Surely, it makes far more sense to discuss today's lynch rather than tomorrow's, which is the implicit requirement of discussing the on camera stuff.

OTOH, I also completely disagree with you. I think a lot of the vagueness is people trying to speak in character. This is what valentine said "

I wasn't given any information other than I should be the one to drive. " To me, this is a pretty clear and unequivocal statement: Valentine (panzerjager, for reference) was sent a pm that said something along the lines of "you are the one who ought to drive." He speculates that maybe Locke is asking him to drive because driving might lead to his death (bus asplodes or summat.) That's why he claims to be wary. But apart from that, that's all the information he has - that he should drive. He doesn't know the consequences of the choice. If he claims otherwise later, he's contradicting himself. When he talks about choosing to stay quiet, he is not referring to anyinfo he has - rather to his posts in thread. IOW, any confusion in Valentine's play seems to be related to the ongoing confusion that on camera people are having anyway - a) that mith won't lie, and b) that there is one good and one bad choice.

Personally, it's p. clear to me that Locke and Valentine are telling the truth: why have two advocates if they were going to say the same thing, my sense of setup design argued. But if they contradict each other and there is one good and one bad choice, then the one advocating the bad choice must be scum, so we just lnch them both - mods are wary of giving town lots of info like that. But Locke's info makes sense of the dilemma - conflict is created despite both players being townies, and there is a possibility of a choice that really harms town (losing an innocent). So the choice feels right as it is presented.

I want more input on what's going on offstage, jellylee.

Thok. When are you changing your vote? When are you going to do some actual scumhunting? I don't mind all this kinda quiet diplomacy stuff, as I feel the talilan/gaspar/elmosaurian argument is a massive distraction and frankly I don't give a shit about any of it, and any attempt to shut it down is helpful in my book. Nevertheless. More actual gameplay less graphics please.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

uh, -Shanba.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

quick post but i'll probably manage a good post in tonight:

i really really hate quote wars and walls of text. can we try and cut back on those some?

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

updating vote..

Vote: Zwet

, Thok, [People], Mighty Orbots, ShadowLurker, No Lynch, Bagel Eating Cowfrog

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Eh...I'm not really sure of that, since I can't really think of any action that's pro-town but not "townish", at least in the general sense and to some degree. Some things more so then others, of course.

Certain types of emotional response are townish but not pro-town, I would argue.

But this is slightly tangential.

- Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

The things that have changed in that vote - Thok has moved up, and the lurkers we had occupying the next two spots have gone (dahill has a pro-town read on rawr hydra and ky krew has vanished.)

The Thok move should be pretty self explanatory if you've been reading my posts, I'd have thought.

- Shanba.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Zwet i think now would be a good time to post your picture On Camera.
You might also want to include some kind of symbol indicating that they unvote as we're not done yet. I find it all too easy for one of them to vote for Valentine, thus forcing a no lynch here, and blame it on forgetfulness

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

ok, I've skimmed a lot of the quote wars and here's a bit of a summary of my thoughts before talking with my other heads about more stuff.

I've been getting weird vibes from Gaspar all day due to the really little things he's gone after, things that are bad logic but not what I would consider lynchable.

I don't like half of Talilan, but I like the other half, not sure what that means in the long run.

One thing I would like to ask is whether we do want to fire MafiaJin or not. While I don't currently think he's scum, I don't trust the judgement of either hydra head and think it's probably safer for the town to have someone who's less of a loose cannon out there making the decisions as to who makes the decisions.

Going to try to talk to other heads now and probably recondorcet later tonight.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

This should be obvious but I want to say it just in case:

MAFIAJIN - DO NOT PUT TALILAN ON CAMERA THIS SCENE.

We're gonna need them to switch out with KY Krew who, I think everyone can agree by now, are obvscum.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Director, please wait until all players are caught up with the offstage stuff before making a decision.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Dweezil Zappa, played by Mighty Orbots

Kobe Bryant, played by Rawr Hydra

Julie Newmar, played by MafiaJin

Lance Ito, played by Seraphim

Carrie Fisher, played by Talilan (except KY Krew permanently replaced, yes?)

These are the people that have to go in. So, we will not have any sound engineer and the picture engineer is unreplaced according to the opening post.





-Sajin (last one was too, I forgot to sign the post)

you're sending yourself out again?

And

Talilan despite specifically being asked not to? I was 100% wrong about you and Glork was right. WTF man, it seems like you haven't even read the thread.

Can whoever it is that has the power please sack him?

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I almost went to bed here, seeing as its v. late at night my time, but I'm so completely flabbergasted that I cannot let this rest. O second reading, I'm not sure I totally understand, in that I'm not sure whether you're bringing Talilan or KY Krew, but either way is bad. Here off stage, we have to do the nitty gritty of lynching. So you leave us our scum suspects. Personally, I don't really suspect either of them, but they've come under some serious scrutiny in this thread already, and that means we need them here. Similarly yourself. Frankly, by denying even the possibilty of questioning these people, you're going against the will of the town as a whole.

Furthermore, I am completely gobsmacked that you seem to have rushed so auickly to a decision. I can't believe that you've even read the offstage thread at this point. Given you seem hellbent on protecting yourself by scarpering to the camera at every opportunity, even if you are town, how on earth are you going to catch up with everything that's going on here - the information you need to scumhunt in a theoretical situation where we let you get away with surviving to endgame. Replacements are bad enough for knocking momentum from a game, we need the townies to catch up.

Which brings me to another grievance: you are not letting other players who may theoretically be more interested in the game than you catch up.

And a further thing - how the hell did you reach a decision so quickly? Are you even taking this thread into account? Or mayb G&B is right, and the scum can daytalk.

I want answers.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

From what I can tell, these aren't the people he's sending in, but the people who are already guaranteed to be in the scene as given by the mod.

Ah...

oops.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

@ckd: From reading the role descriptions, it looks like even if you fire MafiaJin now it won't take effect until next scene. As for zwet, I don't know about the others but I lynched him for his lack of participation/attention to the game, especially when we needed him; as well as his hypocritical stances, anti-town behavior and policies, buddying, lack of scumhunting and piggybacking...the list goes on and on.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I dislike that this game is being dominated by walls of text and quote wars. Seriously, if you have something to say in length please try to shorten it. This is becoming somewhat of chore..

As for remaining On/Off stage I'd personally like to remain Off stage but I'll have to ask my partners for their opinions.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

If an advocate knows a door is bad for SURE, then make sure you guys pick it, and then switch when the other bad door is revealed

Yeah, this evening two thoughts occurred to me. One was basically the above, where our Advocate has limited information, up to and including the result of one or more doors.

The other is that if the scums can choose a scum advocate (I'm not clear on whether this is possible, but I didn't see anything in the rules to suggest that it is impossible), then they could just pick the Good door and assume that we will follow the Monty Hall problem.

If scum choose a scum advocate in that situation, then we'll know because the outcome of the choice (good/bad) is revealed post-scene. So they have to sacrifice a scumbag in order to mislead us there. I'm willing to take that risk, as we're a little bit ahead of the game on the on camera department anyway.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Yos: post 4 has a rundown of the first few scenes.

Gaspar: what Yos said. Plus, I do not believe the on camera stuff will be a crapshoot, so we must be given enough information to come to a decision. Furthermore, I think we need to hold advocates accountable to avoid scum abusing their ability to pick them. An advocate who unequivocally leads us wrong ought to be lynched.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Actually, wait. Gaspar, that post was in reference to both your and SL's posts - in other words, that the advocate has info for sure. You took that out of context to attack me there, and your logic is specious anyway.

:\

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Zito- I never post full scum->town lists early in a game. You should know this by now. I find scum just manipulates the hell out of them

Uh what? Can you give an example of this?

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Grr posting from iPod so ignore my sloppiness that's a mafiajin quote

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Of course the scums made Krew the Adovcate. I had a strong suspicion they would. I think Krew should be pulled after approximately 48 hours, unless the other players on camera request that we get rid of him sooner.

I 100% agree with this. Right before he went on-camera, he said something about a cult, knowing he'd be quickly pulled On Camera and not be able to explain what the heck he's talking about. I, personally don't trust him, as I don't think any of his actions this entire game have been oriented towards helping the town.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I have to admit, KY Krew is doing a good job trying to freak us out and exploit his status as virtually-confirmed scum. I would take everything he says with a grain of salt and remember that it will all be WIFOM (assuming he is scum in the extremely likely case that he is). Obviously, On Camera people shouldn't choose a door until Talilan's put back there and can help them out much more. Hopefully, the info given to the advocate will be more straightforward than what KY Krew said.

I'd like hewitt, TBTKM, sottyrulez, starkiss, thesp, etc. whoever else wasn't Off Stage yesterday to post their thoughts.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Oh great, the exact situation we were talking about comes up (i.e. advocate learns which door is bad) and KY krew goes and blows it totally out of the water by picking one of the doors he didn't have info on (except, wait. He probably does, because he's probably scum.)

I want him stunted back so we can lynch him.

As for the decision, well it is now total WIFOM.

-Shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I'm also curious as to what people's thoughts on random v.s. non-random are.

I don't think it's particularly important, tbh.

-shanba

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I dislike the firing of MafiaJin - I think he's probably town.

But do you trust the judgement of either player in the hydra? That's what really matters when it comes to the Director role. It doesn't really matter if they're town or not if they make stupid decisions. I definitely don't trust SSK based on meta, and(again based on meta), I feel like he'd be rash and make decisions without talking to his partner(who I don't know as much about).

In addition Thesp, what are your thoughts about MafiaJin putting himself on stage Scene 1 and the reasoning for it that followed?

wow Thesp is very very obv-town

Not only does he agree that Gaspar is scum (KY Crew is irrelevant as he's obv-scum to everyone) but that MafiaJin has done nothing scummy all game.

I'm really hating the hidden-side mechanic.

What do you mean?

So agreeing with you means someone's obv-town, and disagreeing with you means they're scum? Because that's the feel I'm getting from your posts. If there's other reasons, please point them out, because I must have missed them.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

It'll be interesting to see KY's alignment. A game this big, I kind of believe in the cult's (or some other 3rd-party) existence. I feel more like he made a slip as 3rd party, not scum, but time will tell.

This is scummy. KY is quite obviously not a 3rd party based on his actions and the recent events. Analysis of the actions and what they say about alignment:

He switched out to avoid a lynch (could be 3rd party or mafia)

He deliberately tried to change the decision On Camera to the bad one (I see much more benefit for a mafia to do this than a 3rd party)

HE WAS PICKED AS AN ADVOCATE (Hmm...)

He choose the door right away (Why would a 3rd party do this?)

KY was caught Day 1 and now is trying to mess up as much as he can before we lynch him. Why would a 3rd party draw this much attention to themselves? I don't like the people who are believing in the cult and mentioning it for no reason and I don't like you putting doubt on KY being mafia.

On another note, I'm gonna be V/LA this weekend but my other heads should still be able to participate.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Oh, and as for which door to pick I think (if KY is telling the truth about Talilan not getting info) that he messed us up too much to make an informed decision. so i don't care which door we pick

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

to those of you (StarKiss) that feel like there's a possibility of a cult, how the heck would they fit into the type of endgame we're going to have, where we have 2 [Something Else] and 5 Town? Seriously, we know what's going on here. Make good decisions and lynch scum for the best possible endgame. Unless there's some evidence of a cult, I'm going to just ignore all talk about it, and I'm going to find people who bring it up scummy,

even if we end up having a cult

.

Talilan, what are the main points against the people you suspect, besides that they're suspicious of you?

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Please get KY Krew out of there. I see he is trying to direct people toward door 1 now.

I completely agree with this, in addition to the fact that we need to make sure they know that it's up to them. However, do keep in mind that this is about the same amount of information as a normal Monty Hall problem, which would lead me to leaning towards switching, as I don't want to WIFOM out of the correct decision.

I really want StarKiss to respond to my question from my last post.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Well, this should be quite obvious. Contradicting info, conveniently avoiding their own lynch, forcing a door choice, and the list goes on.

Full claim with EVERYTHING you've been given in your next post KY.

A full condorcet should come soon after consulting with my other heads.

-dahill

Vote KY Krew

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

So, I am content with this lynch.

-Shanba

Also, on a whim I would switch.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

wait, we have Nights? This is news to me.

-Cow

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I should probably explain that more. We have had pre-game, scene 1, and post-scene 1, unless I'm missing something.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Thesp should send a "we lynched KY" signal any time now.

Meanwhile, I'm getting scum vibes from Panzer, particularly from this post which makes it seem like he's just going along with the flow and staying under the radar (and yes I know he had limited access). I think KY's trying to pull in some last minute distancing here.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I think a simple noose or green light should do the trick.

Noose - http://bajan.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/rope-noose.jpg

Green Light - http://www.follow-me-to-profits.com/ima ... ght-go.jpg

just rehost them on imageshack to get rid of the file names

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Here's the list of messages we want to be able to convey for any scene and the current signals. Ideally this will not change past here (though I did take Talilan's suggestion for the song to fire the director as it was clearly better for conveying the correct message):

* Don't Make the decision yet.
Picture: Red Light: http://www.trisha-johnson.com/stories/a ... plight.jpg
Song: Simon and Garfunkel, "The 59th Street Bridge Song": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPNybw-1kc0

* Make the decision now.
Picture: Green Light: http://www.goldenspikespeedway.net/Gree ... plight.jpg
Song: Leonard Cohen, "Closing Time": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVt6vhRAu3k

* Don't trust the stuntman.
Picture: Stuntman on fire: http://www.lloyds.com/NR/rdonlyres/AB55 ... untman.jpg
Song: They Might Be Giants, "My Evil Twin": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zVbxoF ... re=related

* Don't trust the Director of Audiography.
Picture: Broken Record: http://actingschmacting.files.wordpress ... record.jpg

* Don't trust the Director of Photography.
Song: The Presidents of the United States of America, "Some Postman": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TOlsmw ... re=related

* Fire the Director.
Picture: Donald Trump: http://newyork.corante.com/archives/You ... 0fired.jpg
Song: The Wombats, "Kill the Director": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXCf6pPjaKw

If everyone could confirm that they've got these written somewhere before the next scene (especially those in the scene but as we don't know who that will be yet it's best if it'll be everyone) I'll feel much better.

Scene two specific signals are currently as follows:

Scene two picture signals:

Switch to the other door and end the scene: Wall Switch: http://storageinsider.files.wordpress.c ... switch.jpg

Stay with the current door and end the scene: Dog Staying: http://askspikeonline.files.wordpress.c ... itting.jpg

If I get replaced by the stuntman and need to send signals (or if I get killed and someone replaces me off stage) the song signals are:

Switch to the other door and end the scene: Cake, "Sheep go go Heaven (Goats go to Hell)": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0mx5ERj1eI

Stay with the currend door and and the scene: Cake, "Stickshifts and Safetybelts": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3i7EFYk-_c

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

This one, glork?

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

iPod post: I refuse to believe that KY was not some form of anti-town but I personally don't think he's cult. His actions do not suggest it at all, in fact they do the opposite: lead me to believe he's mafia. The main question in my mind right now is what does this have to do with what ckd told us..

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Basically, the biggest reason I doubted that KY was scum was just because I didn't see scum making the most suspicious looking guy in the entire game the advocate if he was one of their own; it just dosn't make sense as a scum play. So, if the scum who are picking the advocate are the "screen actor's guild", and KY was a "scientologist", perhaps a member of a different scum group of some type, then that fits.

It does make sense though. Say that the scum chose a protown looking mafia as advocate. If they led to the wrong door they'd probably end up being lynched and if they choose the right one, then that's just more help to the town. If they choose an obvscum advocate instead, then he can attempt to WIFOM the choice and there's a much better chance ofthe wrong door being picked

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Not liking elmosaurian right now especially his last post. Will elaborate when I can get to a computer

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Hmm..panzer slips by with another piggyback post.
I'm getting scum vibes from elmosaurian, panzer, and glork. Much more sure on the first two though

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Argh! That's exactly what they want you to think.

Can I just say how incredibly paranoid this sounds? When are you going to start wearing the tin foil hat?

My take on the whole situation: I don't think we have enough info at this point to work it out. And I'm not necessarily in favour of lynching people to work this out (I need to think it over).

As for the Elmosaurian thing: I agree with him in almost every way except for his bizarre position on KY krew. For example, I agree that JellyLee needed to give more input on offstage players day 1: in fact I asked it from him at the time. Didn't follow it up though, hrm.

Furthermore, I am always wary of people 'working things out' in the way Glork did. Generally, I find there are a million explanation for any series of events in mafia. It's a bit like a conspiracy theory; even if you're right that there's underhand stuff going on, what makes your explanation the right one? What if new evidence points in a completely different direction.

There are a number of players who's alignments I desperately wish to know.

Incidentally, while scientology cult is a possibility, ky krew in that situation is almost certainly not a recruit. Furthermore, there seems too be no indication that he is a recruiter either. Which makes me a little skeptical of the idea of a scientology cult.

I don't agree with my other head (actually, I'm not sure which one it is.) about Gaspar. I had a very bad gut feeling about him day 1 but that's fading fast. Gaspar, what's your read on MafiaJin?

Personally I don't mind going on stage, but again I don't know my other heads thoughts on the matter. I need to reread thok, who I tihnk warrants some more investigation.

-Shanba.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

(Disclaimer: This list may or may not reflect the opinions of Shanba and hascow.)

Since these seem to be all the rage..

Bagel Eating Cowfrog (hasdgfas/dahill1/Shanba)

- Protown duh

curiouskarmadog

- Was leaning town before this new info came out. Have to think this over now so unsure at the moment.

elmosaurian (Yosarian2/Elmo)

- Heavy leaning scum

Gaspar (Glork)

- Slight scum gut but no solid evidence

GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons)

- Protown

hewitt

- Neutral to slightly Scummy

MafiaJin (MafiaSSK/Sajin)

- Neutral to slightly Scummy

Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag)

- Protown

MrJellyLee (MrBuddyLee/petroleumjelly)

, replacing Seraphim S1 - Leaning Protown

Panzerjager

- Pretty Scummy

PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing Rawr Hydra S2

- Neutral. I got somewhat protown vibes from Kore but Pooky's done nothing.

ShadowLurker

- Protown

sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez)

- Leaning slightly more than average protown

StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic)

- Neutral to slightly Scummy

Talilan (Talitha/ortolan)

- Slightly leaning town (although I really wish they would stop getting into page long arguments)

Thesp

- slightly to moderately scummy

Thok

- slightly to moderately scummy

VP Baltar

, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2 - Neutral to slightly protown, didn't like TBTKM although VP has done better

I would like to hear why CKD thinks Orbots is scum that surprised me. Also, as for being on camera I don't mind doing it but I'd rather stay Off Stage. And if we do go on stage I submit an earnest request for the length of the discussions between (but not limited to) Elmosaurian, Talilan, MrJellyLee, and Gaspar to be cut down please.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Gaspar, lets play that WIFOM gamre real fast..

lets says that I am a liar and a member of the Sci...that I made SMG up and Sci are the only alignment against the "town"...what is there to gain? Why would I not just say I would be recruited into the Sci? How would the "misinformation" help me? IF I was sci with KY, why didnt I immediately fire MJ when he entered and told me the town wanted me to?

Lets say instead of saying "SMG" I said "Sci"...and then KY flipped Sci..what would be your current stance on me then

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this issue. I think it is very unlikely that ckd would take a huge risk and lie about the scum team name just to gain some advantage in a situation like this. That would require some great predicting skills. PJ brings up a relevant meta but (no offense to ckd) he's no Fiasco.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

-dahill