Battle Mafia: Game Over

[Nikanor]

Vote: Haylen.

She deserves it.

[Nikanor]

How do we catch scum?

With a cleverly woven net.

[Nikanor]

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Nope. Go back and read it yourself.

Explain yourself, now.

Ehhhh, something is off here. He seems a lot pushier in this game than in his others.

Unvote. Vote: DTMaster.

Lynch all Discrepancies.

[Nikanor]

I hope you realise that simply using the phrase "Lynch all X" doesn't actually justify a vote.
1) What is your basis for saying he is pushy?
2) What is your basis for saying he is usually not pushy?
3) Why is being more pushy a scumtell?

Yes, I do realise that. However, I like to jump from person to person during the RVS as I see reactions and relative scumminess change. DTM's post activated my gut, so I voted him.
1) Well, he does seem pushy from the post I quoted, do you not agree?
2) His other games. I have been in two games with him. While I won't use ongoing games as evidence, I can link you to his first game in which he was a townie. Maybe I'm missing some things because I just skimmed over the game, but he does not seem as pushy in that game as he does in this one. I'd like for cicero or tubby to provide their opinions here, since they would know first-hand what DTM was like in that game.
Here's the link for anyone who would like to look into it.
3) I said it was a discrepancy, which is a type of scumtell. It may just be a playstyle change, but it's the best I have going right now.

[Nikanor]

Do you see anything that would be not-RVS worthy so far in this game?

Oh, sorry. I made an error in my last post. I should have said that I like vote-hopping

directly after

the RVS, not during. Obviously if I'm voting people for even semi-legitimate reasons (such as gut based on what someone said), I don't think we're in the RVS anymore.

[Nikanor]

Yeah. I do that a lot.

[Nikanor]

Pushy? Not really. "Explain yourself" is hardly a pushy statement given that seeking explanations is a pretty big part of Mafia, and something like "Explain yourself when you are comfortable doing so" or "Explain yourself, when it suits you" just sounds stupid. If you see something which warrants explanation, that usually means you think it is scummy, which itself would justify "Explain yourself, now"

It's just that I would expect DTM to say, 'Explain yourself, please,' rather than, 'Explain yourself, now.'

As for the discrepancies thing, the problem I have is that it rests on an assumption that the change in conduct is caused by a change alignment. I know it's early days, but that doesn't really justify downplaying the fact that discrepancies have a vast array potential of causes (who the other people are in the game, mood, level of interest in the game, etc. all operate all the time)

I have acknowledged both the possibility of it being a scumtell and of it being a playstyle change. If it is a scumtell, my vote will help to put pressure on DTM and prove this. If it is simply a playstyle change, my vote will eventually move to someone of more relative scumminess.

[Nikanor]

I know this conversation should be dead already, but I want to get this out before I forget about it:
I think the attempted 'kill' on IH is either a) a twist from our mod, or b) scum-on-scum action. I think the only reason scum would have to use a slow-acting poison on someone when it would almost positively get blocked is to make themselves look more like town through WIFOM. C), a town-directed kill, seems fairly ridiculous/impossible considering the nature of the kill (slow-acting poison).
Right now, a) is looking more likely. If b) becomes more likely through a confirmed scum in IH, I would look at tubby next, only considering the fact that he was present to vote to save IH three minutes after the poison was ingested.
-------------------------------
Now, back to me:

Ehhhh, something is off here. He seems a lot pushier in this game than in his others.
Unvote. Vote: DTMaster.
Lynch all Discrepancies.

I disagree with your theory.

Good for you.
May I ask why?

It's just that I would expect DTM to say, 'Explain yourself, please,' rather than, 'Explain yourself, now.'

wow. this is weak. FoS Nikanor.

Yeah, I acknowledged it was weak when vollkan questioned me about it. Good job ignoring that portion of my posts:

3) I said it was a discrepancy, which is a type of scumtell. It may just be a playstyle change, but it's the best I have going right now.

-------

1. I don't want to answer for tubby but when you read the exchange he and BM (the almighty mod) had it'll be all clearer. The unvote was a product of trying to save you, and wording issues that BM wanted.

You don't want to answer for tubby, but you do anyway. Nice.

[Nikanor]

Also the fuck off is a slight towntell.

Yeah, especially with Haylen :S (/WIFOM regarding self-aware metas).

[Nikanor]

Ask the mod if you can provide links of ongoing games.

No point. I don't know DTM's roles in those games, so nothing conclusive can be drawn.

[Nikanor]

So in which games is DTM

confirmed

town and pushy?

None. In any case, he only has one game in which he is confirmed (as far as his wiki goes, anyway). He wasn't as pushy in that one as he was in the phrase I quoted. That's why I voted him.

@DTM: What do you think of tubby's behaviour?

[Nikanor]

Do you think being pushy is a scumtell?

Not at all. Pushiness is playstyle-based. Again, the reason I voted DTM is becuase I saw a discrepancy in playstyle. It's called a meta-attack. Are you going anywhere with this? I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over.

Who else do you think is scummy?

Other than DTM, I find BC's short one-liner posts to be scummy. In a bunch of them, he calls people scummy without giving reasons.
I don't really find tubby to be that scummy. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Stupidity is not a scumtell. That includes drug-induced stupors.

@BC: Elaborate on your iso. 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18, 20, 22 and 24, please.

[Nikanor]

Can you quote what gave you the impression that dtmaster is less agressive in his other game?

Sorry, I can't do that. It's not possible. One quote from that game isn't going to show you that he was, in general, less aggressive in that game.

[Nikanor]

randomlunatic, why do you think you are under scrutiny (as much so as tubby and BC, even)?

[Nikanor]

Oh, ignore that.
Just random babblings from one of my many misreadings.

[Nikanor]

If tubby flips town (for what ever reason since that possibility might exist) scum would dogpile onto him. With 14 people to sift through it'll be hard to sift through but it gives us a direction to begin. Just something to keep in mind if this goes through lynch.
<snip>

Unvote
Vote: Tubby216

I'm getting tingly bad vibes though just through meta (partial gut feeling).. but that was pretty much a scum confession.

...Okay. So you predict that tubby might flip town, say that you are getting town vibes from him, and say that scum would dogpile onto tubby.
Then you vote tubby.
Oh, and usually one would not include himself in the 'number of people to sift through' count if one knows oneself to be town.

289:@Tubby Did you just claim scum searching for your partners? It reads like that with the whole "my partners thing" o-o.

Seems like rolefishing to me, now that we know tubby was a pro-town neighbor and did have partners.

And I can't think of a single reason I'd have picked IH at that time, if I could poison people.

I thought I had proposed something a while back.
Oh yeah, I did.

I really quite like my DTM vote, but for now I'll go with charter's information.

Unvote. Vote: Mariyta.

IGMEOY:DTM.
FoS: DTM.

[Nikanor]

I'm saying it's a possibility, yes. IH hasn't said much all game, so I can go either way on his scumminess.
Anyway, either you or charter is lying. We catch scum either way.
I believe charter's behavior is consistant with a <<Insert charter's weird role name here>>.
Either that, or he's a lyncher, but I doubt that one.

[Nikanor]

Why the heck would charter say he knew Mariyta was scum if he was lying?

A lyncher is the only explaination for your question.
His Appeal to Fear also fits this conclusion.

@charter: Fullclaim or be voted.

@Everyone: If you are a townie who poisoned IH, please claim now.

[Nikanor]

@charter: Fullclaim or be voted.

No.

'Kay.

Unvote. Vote: charter.

Is there any specific reason for why you won't fullclaim? The only reason I can think of is that you are lying.

[Nikanor]

You sir, are an idiot.

Gotcha. I'll just go sit over here, then.... (/joke).
Seriously though, was that message you supposedly recieved brought upon by your role, or was it just a random gift from BM for being such a nice guy?

[Nikanor]

EBWOP: I think I understand now, but I want charter to tell me what it was before I reveal what I think.

[Nikanor]

It's almost like I got my message at the same time, read it, then made my post in the thread. It all fits together so perfectly!

Except that she used her ability on CKD and you supposedly got your message TWO DAYS after the poisoning. The mod would have sent you a message directly after he posted the save scene if he was going to send a message at all. How does that fit together 'so perfectly'?

[Nikanor]

now there's 4 dead, one "almost lynch", and it's still day?

Yeah, there have been two daykills, one 'almost lynch' (mod error), one vengeful kill, and one attempted murder on IH.

[Nikanor]

I am sure she is scum.

Way to dodge the question.

[Nikanor]

charter, can you please answer Yos's question instead of dodging it?

Charter:
Are you 100% sure your information is correct?

[Nikanor]

You said you were sure she was scum. That's not answering the question.
I may be being a stickler for this, but I prefer complete and proper answers.

[Nikanor]

@charter: You think I'm scum because I don't automatically believe the claim of someone I find scummy? You have refused to answer or have ignored most of my questions. You have threatened players of whose alignment you supposedly had no knowledge. I have no reason to believe you, as I find you nothing but scummy.
Post 542, however, does make a good point. And I see there is no point in pushing a charter lynch today. If anyone puts Mariyta at L-1, I'll hammer. Otherwise, I'll just sit and wait for CKD to hammer.

[Nikanor]

Nik you should vote, not wait, I'd wager she might self hammer to prevent more of her buddies being dayvigged.

Uhm, wouldn't it be a good thing for us to let any buddies she may have get dayvigged?
Why are you rushing this so much? We haven't even heard from multiple people yet.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor strikes me for saying some suspiciously one-dimensional things inthread, for instance--

A lyncher is the

only

explaination for your question.
His Appeal to Fear also fits this conclusion.

You bolded the wrong thing. I'll fix it for you:

Why the heck would charter say he knew Mariyta was scum if he was lying?

A lyncher is the only explaination

for your question

.
His Appeal to Fear also fits this conclusion.

Stop misrepresenting what I said, please.

In retrospect, the idea of a Town Poisoner who didn't have the sense to claim immediately and didn't have enough sense to wait for a decent target... makes little sense.

It's day two with eight people dead. It has been proven through Mariyta's flip that charter was (at least) incorrect, unless the distorter has a poisoning ability. DTM has come out at the start of day two with a claim and a self-vote.
Don't tell me you are still thinking this game makes sense?

While these are all things that charter did, this ignores that there were a lot of people at the time - myself included - who really had no problem with all of that. Nikanor didn't question any of them.

Just because everyone else took charter's claim unquestioningly doesn't mean I have to do the same. Just because you disagree with me about something looking scummy doesn't mean you yourself are scummy.

And this is a complete 180 considering 542 was one of charter's posts. If the wagon is inevitable, why wait to vote/hammer? Why express opposition in one sentence and then support in the next?

I meant that I would rather have my vote on charter than on Mariyta, but that I would hammer and end the day if required.

[craplogic]Then there's how Mariyta claimed to have Distorted Nikanor just before charter got his message.
Mariyta said she never lied. Just for kicks, I'm tempted to believe her and suggest that Nikanor did it.[/craplogic]

Craplogic is a correct term for it.
a) Mariyta claimed to have distorted CKD just before charter got his message, not Nikanor.
b) If you are inclined to believe both Mariyta and charter's claims, your second point about me being the culprit is impossible, since Mariyta claimed her distortion two days after the poisoning.

I'll post more when I get back from school late tonight.

[Nikanor]

@Nik - What do you think charter is? Lyncher, scum, or misguided town?

Seeing as how we ended up lynching scum yesterday, probably town.
I have a theory, but I'll wait until later for that.

[Nikanor]

With that said, may I ask why you thought charter was a Lyncher, and not whatever he was?

I have my reasons. I did not think it was very possible that he was town, but I guess I was wrong.
Remember how I said I had a theory about charter's possible role? The best thing I could think of was 'Insane Amnesiac Rolecop.'
That's the best I could come up with that fit everything, assuming charter wasn't lying.
About charter's flip, I think he was just lying about the claim he knew Mariyta did the poisoning to confuse scum.

What's the point of that, pragmatically speaking?

(shrug) I just thought charter was scum and that Mariyta was not, is all.

Paranoid wasn't necessarily his sanity, it was a post restriction!

Explain, please.

About charter's death, I cannot think of anyone else who had anything at all to gain from it than SpyreX. Non-SpyreX scum? Possible, but it would make more sense for them to wait for SpyreX's lynch before killing charter. Pro-town killing roles? Again, possible, but severely unlikely, considering we lynched scum yesterday with his investigation. The only conclusion I can come up with is that SpyreX is scum.

Vote: SpyreX.

L-1 ahoy.

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT A DISTORTER DOES?

Mariyta's claim (A role that randomly changes or blocks other roles), seems consistent with her role name. Although I don't know why scum would trueclaim.

@Benmage 647: What? Are you seriously trying to use what other people said about being willing to lynch DTM as fuel for the DTM wagon? If SpyreX flips scum, I'm going after you next.

[Nikanor]

Based on a guilty result of a paranoid cop? Where did Occam's razor go?

It imploded when you signed up for this bastard mod game. :/

And how in hell do you get to the conclusion that the only valid possibility is that Spyrex killed charter?

Well, I assume people think things through before doing them; everyone here seems intelligent enough to do that, at least.

I dont see Spyrex or Spyrex scumbuddies (if he has them) killing charter, who would flip cop, to painfully prove that Spyrex was indeed scum and accelerate the process. What was the benefit here?

I have no idea. But then again, the other explaination (different scumteam) doesn't make much sense either.
Maybe the SpyreX scumteam has a rolecop who saw charter as paranoid, so they killed him to make SpyreX look town? /wild speculation.

[Nikanor]

Maybe, just maybe, you guys can manage to NOT LYNCH me until that happens?

Alright, I'll try my best...

Unvote.

But what does this mean:

This means either charter didn't target me last night or I got a fake power.

?

[Nikanor]

I need sleep.
I'll reread with a clear head tomorrow night.

[Nikanor]

Okay, the things I dislike most about SpyreX's claim are that he claims to have used his power on vollkan N0 and predicted that he was a Town Vanilla. He got a power, but didn't know if it was fake or not. He hypothesizes that if he is half right, that half being the 'town' part, that he would get a power. Then, he claims to have investigated DTM N1 as Mafia Goon. Now, he says that he thinks he can be half right and still get a power. That means that either a) DTM is mafia, not goon, and SpyreX's claim is unrefuted, or b) DTM is vanilla, not mafia, and SpyreX's claim is unrefuted. It is a very safe claim for him to make. I also don't like how he chose 'mafia goon' as an investigation. It is my understanding that there are very rarely mafia goons in a setup such as this. So why would SpyreX choose to guess Mafia Goon on DTM? It makes no sense. Care to explain this to me, SpyreX?

[Nikanor]

Nikanor is getting to this topic. He has been paying an inequal amount of attention to his games lately, and is attempting to make up for that.
Wait your turn.

[Nikanor]

What the hell else would I guess?

Something more common in these types of games. Roleblocker or Busdriver or something like that.
Or, if you thought your power gave you abilities when you were only half right, you could have guessed something like Mafia Batmobile. That way, you could have used your ability as an alignment cop would use his.
Or you could test your sanity by using Billy Mays on BM, since everyone knows that BM's initials actually stand for Billy Mays, not Battle Mage, like he would have you believe.
Any way I spin it, your claimed role just has way too many grey areas to be useful. We don't know if your powers are even real. You could even be getting insane watching abilities for guessing wrongly on DTM, if both of you be truthful.
I think this grey area was a plan of yours as scum to be able to get DTM lynched without having any responsibility for whatever he may flip.

Vote: SpyreX.

[Nikanor]

@DTM: Your plan is faulty. SpyreX can just claim that he got insane powers for guessing wrongly if you flip town. So stop trying to push your plan, please, unless you can eliminate this factor.

[Nikanor]

I find it funny I found an interpretation from 1, 2, and 3. D:

You can always find something if you look hard enough.

[Nikanor]

Nik - Scum, but I don't think with DTM. I'd put money that he had something to do with the Charter shot.

Why do you think I'm scum again? You didn't mention anything about thinking I was scum in that wall, I think.

[Nikanor]

And Nik you're still scum for the L-1 vote on me after I said I was going to claim / setup for a death-lynch.

Honestly, I think you're just going to claim insane results if we lynch DTM and he flips town like I think he will.

[Nikanor]

I just got online half an hour ago, Vi. I'm getting to this one, but a couple of my games have deadlines coming up, so they come first.

[Nikanor]

If I were to draw a conspiracy here I would say that DTMaster's vote loss came from the same person who poisoned IH; similar M.O.

Interesting theory. This would require Kairyuu's killer to be the scum who removed DTM's vote (or for said vote-remover to be fairly quick).

About the Yos-cult talk: This really isn't important right now. I think that it is possible for Yosarian2 to be a recruit (given his reputation, mostly), but it is also possible that Kairyuu was a death miller. At any rate, a kill-less cult recruit shouldn't be our main focus right now. We can come back to this later, when it's a more pressing matter.

Am I missing anything I was asked to comment about?

[Nikanor]

Interesting theory. This would require Kairyuu's killer to be the scum who removed DTM's vote (or for said vote-remover to be fairly quick).

? Explain.

The vote removal was ~ten minutes after Kairyuu's death, so if we are to assume it was scum who removed DTM's vote, it would probably be the same scum who killed Kairyuu. Either way, it could have been SpyreX's team trying to make DTM look like a recruit by removing his vote.

[Nikanor]

@Nikanor: Did you just change your mind? It's difficult to tell.

Change my mind about what?

[Nikanor]

@Nikanor: Your interpretation of events.

Sorry, I still don't get it. Try hitting me with a wooden mallet, that usually jogs my brain.

[Nikanor]

A little under two days until deadline, folks. Make up your minds about who we're going to lynch. (My mind is set on SpyreX, btw. Don't even try to get me to hop over to the DTM wagon).

[Nikanor]

How the hell would you kill off that kind of cult?

Would they not auto win?

...
You're a little behind, don't you think?
And the answer is no. It's just that scum and town would have to work together with kills/lynches to eliminate the cultist threat.

[Nikanor]

What the hell is a Town Batmobile?

Nothing; it does not exist. However, if SpyreX was getting powers for being half-right, he could investigate someone as Town Avacado to determine their alignment.

[Nikanor]

I'm pretty sure DTM is town, to answer tajo's question.

[Nikanor]

The whole way that he A) tried to fish for charter's role, B) tried to attack charter while he was attacking Mariyta, and C) Then later tried to discredit charter by accusing him of being a lyncher, all make him look bad.

A) charter was scummy. I thought he was lying, so I tried to get him to elaborate.
B) I assume by 'he,' you mean charter. I attacked charter because I thought he was lying. His even tried to take credit for EB's death, if I recall correctly. I also would like to think that if I were Mariyta's partner, I wouldn't be stupid enough to chainsaw defend her with a cop's guilty on her.
C) I tried to discredit him by calling him just regular old scum as well. Does that count for anything?

Also, if I were Mariyta's scumbuddy, why would I push for SpyreX's lynch with 'paranoid cop is not paranoid,' when I could have went with the opposite position and pushed for an easy DTM lynch to semi-confirm my partner? /WIFOM

I need to reread a bit, but right now I think DTM is town, at least.

[Nikanor]

Anyway, if someone suddenly pops up on day 1 and implies they have role information that person X is guilty, the odds of them just lying are generally pretty small

Well, as it turns out, he was lying about his role information, although it wasn't in the way I had expected. This is the reason why I attacked him again on day two after his guilty claim on SpyreX.

Your behavior was especally bad, since you attacked Charter when he first attacked Maryita, then followed him and voted Mariyta when he said he had role information, but then later reversed yourself and voted charter again afterwards. Just really scummy.

I never attacked charter prior to his information claim; you're getting me confused with other people. randomlunatic comes to mind, but I'm not sure about the others before rereading.

Also, re-reading that time period now, I forgot that it was you Mari had claimed to have day-roleblocked, which is kind of interesting. A lot of people in this game seem to have day-actions. How would she have known you woun't contradict her claim, if she isn't your buddy? Granted, she was a little vauge with the details of the timing, but you didn't push her for precise details either, which I would have expected you to if you were town.

A lot of people? Who are these people, specifically? All I can think of are charter and Mariyta.

How would a DTM lynch "semi-confirm" SpyreX?

Because of the weird role mechanics he had claimed, he would have been 'semi-confirmed' no matter what DTM flipped, unless it was a pro-town power role.

I need to reread a bit, but right now I think DTM is town, at least.

Why?

His behaviour at the beginning of yesterday fits town-DTM more than scum-DTM, I think.

In regards to the bold, why did you think he was lying?

Read my posts during that time frame, and I think you'll understand.

Nikanor, this is not how I have seen you play as town before. You are trying to convince others far more then I have seen you do in the past and offering explanations to that extent.

I assume you are talking about thte /in-vitational 2 Chosen game where I was vanilla town, correct? That's not how I usually act while under pressure as town, I assure you. In that game, I had reason to suspect I was more likely to be VT than Chosen, so I didn't bother defending myself too much. I was excluding the wrong people for the wrong reasons as well, which attributed slghtly to my poor performance that game.
What do you think of my actions so far in THIS game, Sajin? One-game meta isn't good enough.

Also elaborate on how Nik is scummy? I don't understand how convincing through elaboration (aka explaining your self and defending) is scummy. You aren't discrediting his posts with evidence from the thread. Your point just reads as: defending yourself is scummy.

Why are you misrepresenting Sajin? That is obviously not what he meant in his post.

[Nikanor]

I think that in order to satisfy our moderator, you have to spell out my full name, in 12-point Times New Roman, bolded, if you wish to vote me.

[Nikanor]

Who do you think is scum?

Lotsa people.

Well, actually, there can't be many left. Two at most, I think. Let me do some kill analysis, and I'll be right with you.

[Nikanor]

2. Vollkan - Doctor, Killed Day 1
8. Haylen - Protown Neighbour, Killed Day 1
9. Gieff - Mafia Neighbour, Killed Day 1
20. ElectricBadger - Mafia Doctor, Killed Day 1
6. Shanba - Vanilla Townie, Killed Night 1

2. Vollkan is obviously a scum kill.
8. Might be vigilante kill, but probably the mafia killing off GIEFF's neighbors.
9. tubby's vengeful kill.
20. Could be scum kill, probably vigilante.
6. Probably scum kill. I can't see any reason for a pro-town killing role to kill Shanba.

So for Day One, we probably have three scum kills with one vig kill. I think that the most likely scenario we're looking at here is mafia and SK with daykills, and cult with a night kill.

24. Charter - Paranoid Cop, Killed Day 2
19. Kairyuu (Rep. Seraphim) - Cult Recruiter, Killed Day 2

This makes sense. charter was SpyreX's mafia kill, Kairyuu was the SK's kill, and there was no night kill because there was no cult recruiter during the night phase.

So basically, we're looking at a) a cult recruit, probably recruited night zero, b) an SK running about, and possibly c) the remnants of the mafia group.
That means we're looking at 2-4 scum left, depending on how many mafia are remaining.

Again, I still need to do a reread, but I'm going to keep this in mind in regards to for what I should look.

[Nikanor]

EBWOP: Erm, Day Three Kills should be Day Two Kills, obviously.

If I was a scum, I'd worry about lying and claiming to day role-block someone who's role I didn't know in a game where a large number of people had already been daykilled day 1. For one thing, if you also had a daykill, I'd expect you to test her claim that she was blocking you by, well, trying to shoot you and see what happened.

What are you saying here? Who is to say that I have any day powers at all?

[Nikanor]

My scumteam was Nik, GIEFF, Mariyta. I killed charter.
Day one was... interesting. We killed Vollkan at the beginning to implicate Haylen. After the mistaken lynching of tubby, we got a second kill which we used to kill Haylen. I assume tubby was given a vengekill as compensation?

BM, did the two mafia teams have a linked wincon?