ZOMBIES! - Zombies take over for the win!!!

[Yosarian2]

vote:cooldog

[Yosarian2]

vote:cooldog

I agree with Yosarian2.

[Yosarian2]

vote:cooldog

I agree with Yosarian2.

(nods) Yeah, I think Yosarian2 makes a really good point here.

[Yosarian2]

Lol. No post restriction. Just bored.

[Yosarian2]

Zazier has one post, what is Kort's tell that has to do with one post in RVS?

unvote

Vote:wolframnhart

[Yosarian2]

In case it wasn't clear, Wolf, my vote on you was not random. I think that post of yours I quoted was a minor scum tell.

[Yosarian2]

Wow, I didn't even realize the game had starded and there are already 3 pages... Anyway, in the forum where I use to play mafia there are never so many votes... It just isn't a mess... See, we can't have a lynch with spread votes. It's 11 to lynch!

We usually start with a bunch of semi-random votes at the start of the game, to break the ice, to get reactions from people, to get everyone talking. Early random votes almost never result in an actual lynch; that's not really the point.

[Yosarian2]

Yea I got that Yos, though why you feel like you need to explain it is beyond me.

Well, you completely ignored my vote, so I figured you might have thought it was random or something.

I didn't get this Kort tell thing against Zazier, though it was explained already that Zazier posts a lot and this shtick thing that I still don't really get.

The thing that bugged me about your post, and it might have just been the way I read it, but the apparent disbelief you had that there could be a scum tell in the "random voting stage" bugs me.

[Yosarian2]

by the way I forgot to add what happens in the event of a tie in the rules. I just added what will happen in that case in the rules.

20) In the event of a tie the person who placed the first vote on person who the vote is tied with will be lynched

On a side note, I'm not sure what you mean here, farside. Who gets lynched? The person who cast the first vote?

[Yosarian2]

There is a very unstable situation on the ground that is unfolding very quickly.

Unvote

Could it be...ZOMGBIES?

[Yosarian2]

Reck is scum though, so vote him.

Why? I just re-read his posts, and I don't see it, offhand. What am I missing?

[Yosarian2]

Finding town is never scummy, telling us who you found town IS scummy.

Neah, it's not.

It might be a little more dangerous then normal in a cult game though.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos
I have never played in a Cult game, how is it possibly more dangerous?

Well, if the cult knows that everyone thinks person X is town, then they can recruit person X over to their side.

[Yosarian2]

What am I missing?

His scuminess.

Lol. Ok, any specific posts you can point to that look scummy to you?

[Yosarian2]

Lol. Ok, any specific posts you can point to that look scummy to you?

All of them except his ISO 0,5, and 11.

(reads again)

So...I guess you have a problem with his defense of cooldog, then? Why?

[Yosarian2]

He defended CooL? When?

My impression was he that xRECKONERx's comments about cooldog were a "cool always acts like this so it's not a scum tell" type defense. I don't really have a problem with that (unless cool flips scum, of course), but I was wondering if you did, since as far as I can see that's the biggest thing reckoner's done so far this game.

[Yosarian2]

TBH I have only read from when I first posted, so any opinions I have are from the last few pages. He seems to be the scummiest out of all.

...so, you're not willing to read the whole game when it's only 8 pages long? Really?

[Yosarian2]

TBH I have only read from when I first posted, so any opinions I have are from the last few pages. He seems to be the scummiest out of all.

...so, you're not willing to read the whole game when it's only 8 pages long? Really?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was not willing, I just said I haven't.

FoS Yosarian

The game is EIGHT PAGES. And you haven't read it yet? Not only that, you flip and FOS me for asking you why?

Well, I guess you don't have to read the game, since your role PM already told you who the scum are.

Vote:McGriddle

[Yosarian2]

No i obviously FoS'd you because you put words in my mouth that I did not say.

You said that you hadn't read the game. I asked you why. (Ok, I said "weren't willing to" instead of "hadn't", but there had clearly been pleanty of time to read it if you had been willing to.) You responded by FOSing me and acting like I misrepresented you.


quote]
I did not flip either I think you just flipped by freaking out that I haven't read through the RVS. [/quote]

...mafia is a text based game. You figure out who's scum by what they've said. So, yeah, if you're not reading the game, then you're clearly not interesting in figuring out who the scum are.

You are now taking my FoS out of context, so why do you blatantly grasp at straws that you make yourself?

Out of context? I quoted your whole post. I didn't take anything "out of context".

[Yosarian2]

Huh, my vote didn't get counted. I guess because I didn't unvote?

Unvote

Vote:McGriddle

[Yosarian2]

Calling someone dumb = personal attack, thus ad hom

Starbuck, it's not ad hom to say "I don't think person X is scum, I think he's dumb town".

It's also not at all against site rules used in this way. It was jeep who coined the phrase "Is he dumb, or is he scum". It's a perfectly valid part of the game, since it's so important to figure out the motivations for a person's acts.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I'm still happy lynching McGriddle.

This comment is especally interesting:

I see no reason to look back in the game as I have a good idea already who my 2 scum are.

So, there are only two scum in the game now, huh?

The thing is, that's not at all intuitive for a game this sized, but for a cult game, that actually sounds like it might be pretty balanced to me. I think that was a slip.

And, of course, the content of his "I don't have to read the game because I already know who the scum are" post is really scummy anyway, but that hardly needs to be mentioned.

[Yosarian2]

A. WTH is a cult game

:eyebrow:

cult

Basically, a cult is a scum group that, instead of killing, recruits townies into it's group. That's what we're dealing with here, if you read the rules.

B. I figured there were only 2 scum because every game I have been in has had 2 scum

You just assumed there were only 2 scum in a 20 player game? Really?

and C. You think EVERYTHING is a slip.

Heh. Now you're really reaching. I'm pretty sure that's the only thing I've called a slip all game, and probably for my last 3 or 4 games. Scum slips aren't really that common, but I think you made one.

[Yosarian2]

Also, some general questions, now that I'm thinking about the setup:
1) Has anyone played a cult game before? Any general tips and advice?

Well, if the cult works in a "cult recruiter" kind of way, then the key thing is finding people who are cult on day 1, and worry about the recruits later (or else vig them).

I'm not sure it does, though; I don't know what the cult mechanism is going to be this game.

2) The way I understand it, if the zombies target a vanilla, he becomes a zombie, but if the zombies target a PR, the PR simply dies. So, it's not clear whether we want the zombies to target VTs or PRs - on one hand, we lose a PR, on the other, we don't gain another zombie. I guess it depends on the strength of the PR. I'm not really sure what this means, strategically. Should this change the circumstances under which PRs claim and such?

Eh. If it's more valuable for a scum to hit a power role and get rid of it, they will; if it's more valuable for a scum to recruit a VT, they'll do that. Either way, we don't want anyone to claim unnecesarally, becuase it just helps the scum.

[Yosarian2]

I am not voting cause I don't feel I found anyone scummy. Happy?

No.

Fos:WRP

.

[Yosarian2]

keyboard isn't working willpost later

[Yosarian2]

Still happy with either a McGriddle lynch or a WRP lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Fishing for a modkill can absolutly be a valid scumtell; I've caught scum that way before, because they were deliberately trying to get a townie modkilled. For some reason, I'm not quite feeling that vibe from reck's posts, though.

[Yosarian2]

You asked me to give an opinion on half the players. Is that honestly going to give you any town vibes about me?

You should be confirmed town for attempting to lead town.

I think this game is going smoothly enough to bring up suspicions. Answering those stupid opinion questions wasn't needed.

I think it's a perfectly fair question, because you have so far really not expressed an opinion on really anyone in the game. I really have no idea who you suspect and who you don't, or why, or anything; you've made some ambiguas and vauge comments about cooldog; voted manho for lurking,and that's about it

The way I see it, ilord was trying to get you to scumhunt, trying to find out who you suspected, and you refused. You don't have to have an opinion about EVERYONE in the game, but it's pretty anti-town for you to flatly refuse to give an opinion on anyone.

[Yosarian2]

Scummy is not the word I was looking for. Unhelpful maybe? I only consider it unhelpful to iLord whom I don't really want to help. I didn't like his line of questioning and still don't.

As multiple people have stated, Tat, refusing to say anything about, well, anyone, is incredibly anti-town.

You apparently think manho's vote switch is scummy; ok, but as far as I can see, that's really the first opinion you've expressed on anyone all game. What do you think about other players?

I have been wondering this, but I have never played a cult game. Does it mean that there is only a cult or that there is a mafia and a cult?

Could be either. My impression is that there's just a cult in this game, but that's just flavor from the opening post; wouldn't surprise me if there's also a mafia or a SK or whatever.

[Yosarian2]

Other actions: doc tried to protect. Cop got some type of role . Vig killed KMD...
If we do have a vig he might have killed KMD instead of a cult missfire, that is the only real posibility other then the simple fact that the cult missfired and killed because of it.

This whole part of the post gives me the creeps. Why are you speculating on the existance of cops and docs and such?

Anyway, I agree with the wagon on Tate; if he dosn't respond soon, I'll probably join it. I don't really agree with the attacks on evilsnail; I don't necessarily buy the argument he's making against ilord here, but I can see where he might be coming from.

[Yosarian2]

@yos, no one else seems to be looking at the night and what happened. Most of the time (at least in mininormlas, what I play most...) I like to understand what happened at night...

Speculating about nightkills is fine, IMHO; it can sometimes be useful, even with the WIFOM.

THe part I think is dangerous, and possibly scummy, is speculating about pro-town power roles, especally cops and docs; the way that you say that, and the way that people respond to you, can reveal hints about people's roles, and starting that kind of discussion can be a way for scum to find pro-town power roles.

[Yosarian2]

@tate -- please tell me how, if you are town, you feel the 'right' not to answer questions? Do you think that is a pro-town stance to take? Do you see where, perhaps, such an attitude might persuade people that you may be scum?

I see my stance as a little too anti-town to be scum. I feel upon my flip that you will be able to catch scum based upon reactions to my "lack of answering". I know for a fact that people playing as mafia react differently then people who play as town.

My intentions are that scum react eagerly to me refusing to answer a question, as pointless as the question may be. They jump upon the chance to frame other people as scum. Town react in a more quizzical stance. They wish to understand the reasoning.

If a tactic like that is meant to work at all, it has to be constant. Scum can get in the mindset of town but in the end, they will react just like a member of the mafia would. I guarantee that maf are going to react differently to this post then town would.

Tate...you need to start hunting scum, or else we're going to conclude you are scum and lynch you. It's that simple. All this "Oh but when I get lynched for being anti-town that'll give the town informaton" stuff is garbage; if you act anti-town, then both town and scum will tend vote for you, and it will give very little information.

Basically, what I need to hear from you is some opinions on who you think is town and who you think is scum. If you don't have an opinion on anyone, you're going to have to go back and re-read the game until you have one.

[Yosarian2]

Also, Yosarian and elvis_knits: hey sup?

Hey, Pie, welcome to the game.

-The mechanic of the game strongly suggests that the cult can grow indefinitely. That is, it's not like once we lynch the cultmaster, the cult loses their ability to recruit. That means that we cannot win this game on lynchings alone.

I would hope that that's not true. We don't actually know much about the mechinisms of the cult. One thing that gives me some hope is this;

You win if the Zombie Lords are killed or lynched

I'm not sure what "zombie lords" means in this context, but I'm hoping it means we win if we find and kill the initial cult members, and we don't have to kill all the recruits.

[Yosarian2]

8 pages in, I'd be voting for Yos. Perhaps it's just easier for me to say this with 20/20 hindsight, but McGriddle seems more like an idiot than like scum. I feel like Yos is better than the case he's making here.

My initial post against McGriddle was primarily to pressure him to play in a more pro-town way (starting with actually reading the game). He OMGUS attacked me in response, in a way that seemed suspicious to me, so I voted him.

I became more confident that he was scum a little later in the game, after he made what appeared to be a scum slip and generally kept acting in an anti-town way.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, who is scum now?

Today, I'm leaning towards lynching either Manho or McSuave. It's almost the end of day 2, and McSuave has yet to post any content at all. Looks like deliberate active lurking to me.

Vote:McSuave

[Yosarian2]

As long as we're on the subject, my other quibble with you is that you're spending most of day 1 questioning other people about their suspicions rather than stating your own. I would expect town-Yos to be leading the charge much more than that.

I'm pretty sure I did "lead the charge" on day 1; it feels to me like I started and lead the McGriddle wagon. I mean, i was wrong, but I certainly don't think you can say I wasn't "stating my own suspicions" or whatever.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: I guess what I'm trying to say is that you come across as deliberately noncommittal in your day 1 posting (I'm through about your post 30). You spent awhile questioning KMD without taking a stance one way or another on his suspicions, your attack on McGriddle reads like glorified lurker-lynching (a lot of it is "you won't catch up?

Really?

You assumed X?

Really?

").

Don't speak ill of lurker lynching in my presence.

This wasn't a lurker lynch, though. Basically, if someone is acting in an anti-town way, I try to pressure them to act in a more pro-town way; and if someone is acting in such a way as to make them completly impossible to read, I try to force them to respond or react in some kind of way that makes them more readable so I can figure out their alignment (usually some combination of questions, pressure, and other kinds of prodding to try to get inside their head and find out what they are thinking). With McGriddle, it was a little of both; I was both trying to pressure him to act in a more pro-town way, and since he was acting in a way as to make himself unreadable (in his case, by not refusing to read the game), I was trying to put him in a corner and force him to react to me, hopefully in such a way as to make it possible for me to at least guess at his alignment. I did manage to get reactions from him; I judged them as reactions that scum would be more likely to make then town, so I then pushed for his lynch, while still questioning him.

I was in the process of doing something similar with tate when you replaced him (again, both trying to pressure him to act in a more pro-town way, and trying to make him react to me in such a way as to make it more possible to read his alignment).

OTOH, I also poked and prodded at cooldog a few times this game, and the way he reacted has calmed my suspicions about him a bit, at least for now.

Then you go back to noncommittal questioning. Protowners are bound to take a stand one way or another, piss a few people off, and link themselves to other people or their ideas. You did absolutely none of that, and you're a good enough player that I think that's probably deliberate.

I didn't piss people off? I don't think McGriddle would have agreed with that assessment, heh.

But my offer stands: I'm happy to temporarily put this aside if you want to lynch manho with me.

(shrug) Sure, I'd be happy with a manho lynch.

[Yosarian2]

When I read the little of this game I read, I thought Yos's early "jokes" came off a little forced. He tried to get support for some wagon (cooldog?) by quoting himself and being like "I agree with Yosarian2" and "Yos makes a really good point there." Which seemed weird to be becuase hardly anyone else was joking around, they were all talking about the sample PM thing which Yos studiously ignored. Jokes>content=scummy

...jokes are scummy?

Yes, I was joking. I was also trying to start off the game doing something weird in order to try and get some kind of reaction out of Cooldog, because having played with him in the past, I've found him hard to read; last time I played with him .

I would have run with it longer, but then someone started saying "Hey, does Yos have a post restriction?" at which point I dropped the whole thing rather then risking people getting really confused and potentially screwing with the day.

Also, I like having fun in the early game and being silly when I'm in the mood, I don't believe it's anti-town, and I'm going to keep having fun in the early game even if people think it's scummy to make jokes. So thhhpppptt.

[Yosarian2]

When I read the little of this game I read, I thought Yos's early "jokes" came off a little forced. He tried to get support for some wagon (cooldog?) by quoting himself and being like "I agree with Yosarian2" and "Yos makes a really good point there." Which seemed weird to be becuase hardly anyone else was joking around, they were all talking about the sample PM thing which Yos studiously ignored. Jokes>content=scummy

...jokes are scummy?

Not what I said. Jokes aren't scummy. Jokes without content elsewhere are scummy. Jokey, randomish votes when people seem to be making serious votes = scumym.

So, your theory is that scum joke more then town? Or that scum joke "when other people seem to be serious" on page 2 more then town, or whatever? What's that based on? Because I'm pretty sure that's complete bunk.

Yes, I was joking. I was also trying to start off the game doing something weird in order to try and get some kind of reaction out of Cooldog, because having played with him in the past, I've found him hard to read; last time I played with him .

I call BS. Check page 2. You moved your vote after people thought your jokes were weird, and unvoted CoolDog before he even posted. THat's not going to get any reaction from him is it?

[/quote]


Um, if I have a pre-game plan to liven up the random voting stage in order to try to get a reaction from someone, and then someone does something legitimately scummy, of course I'm going to go after that instead. Scumhunting > trying to get random voting stage reactions.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Here are the early-game McG attacks you made that

don't

seem to me to be lurkerlynching:

You said that you hadn't read the game. I asked you why. (Ok, I said "weren't willing to" instead of "hadn't", but there had clearly been pleanty of time to read it if you had been willing to.) You responded by FOSing me and acting like I misrepresented you.

So, there are only two scum in the game now, huh?

[calling him out on a slip]

Am I missing anything? That's literally 2 lines of accusatory text (both of which I find unconvincing and a bit below Yos), and it hardly strikes me as championing the McG wagon. It lacks the panache a town-orchestrated attack typically has.

Well, this was the main point of my attack:

No i obviously FoS'd you because you put words in my mouth that I did not say.

You said that you hadn't read the game. I asked you why. (Ok, I said "weren't willing to" instead of "hadn't", but there had clearly been pleanty of time to read it if you had been willing to.) You responded by FOSing me and acting like I misrepresented you.

I did not flip either I think you just flipped by freaking out that I haven't read through the RVS.

...mafia is a text based game. You figure out who's scum by what they've said. So, yeah, if you're not reading the game, then you're clearly not interesting in figuring out who the scum are.

You are now taking my FoS out of context, so why do you blatantly grasp at straws that you make yourself?

Out of context? I quoted your whole post. I didn't take anything "out of context".

Basically, I think that being uninterested in reading the game and therefore uninterested in finding scum is a huge scum tell.

I also stand by my claim that you seemed to be trying very hard not to connect yourself with any people or ideas on day 1.

Well, that wasn't a goal of mine. I mean, I've been posting a little less then usual in all my games, down to about once every other day, due to real life stuff, but I certanly did my best to scumhunt in this game on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Basically, I think that being uninterested in reading the game and therefore uninterested in finding scum is a huge scum tell.

I'm reading this as "my only real case against McG is that he was lurkin' like nobody's business." Is that correct?

Well, he wasn't lurking, though. He was posting. It was just that he didn't seem to be trying to figure out who the scum were, which is a completely different scum tell, and usually a more reliable one.

Also, I'm confused. Do you disagree that you came out of day 1 unlinked or do you disagree that doing so is a scumtell?

I disagree with your claim that I was "trying" to not be linked.

I'm also not really sure that it's any kind of reliable scumtell; just for example, who would you say your predecessor Tate was linked with after day 1?

[Yosarian2]

For three things, this is a moot point if you're saying that yes, you did come out of day 1 unlinked, but it was completely accidental. Because then this conversation evolves into an analysis of whether or not your posting really does seem accidental (I would argue otherwise) and everyone else's actions are another matter entirely.

I don;t really think I'm any less "linked" then most people in the game, or most people in most games, which was the point I was making about tate.

Besides that, while I kind of understand why you would think scum would avoid being "linked", I'm not sure I agree with your theory; sure, scum avoid linking with each other, but they often intentionally link up with townies, either in a "buddying" kind of way, or else in such a way as to make the townie look bad if they get caught and flip scum.

And for four things, sure, McG

active

lurked instead of your garden-variety lurking. My point stands: that wagon is not about to get you any backlash.

I wouldn't just call it "active lurking" either. Active lurking is bad as well, and right now I'm voting McSwave for active lurking; it's actually a really good reason to lynch someone. But that wasn't what I was attacking him for, either, because he was saying more then an "active lurker" usually would.

IMHO, the biggest difference between a scum and a town in most situations is that a townie is trying to find scum, and a scum isn't, not really. For that reason, "not trying to find scum" is an incredibly useful scumtell, and if someone is being active but don't seem to be trying to find scum, I'll generally push for their lynch with even more vigor then I'll push for the lynch of a lurker.

In any case, I still think that it sounds like your main problem with me lies in your antithipy to bandwagoning people for lurking, anti-town behavior, ect, and I still think that's just not good stratagy, especally on day 1. Town needs to lynch active lurkers, period.

[Yosarian2]

Read over what I missed. Thinking manho is the scummiest, but not by much over Yos and Pie.

Vote: Manho

Care to explain your reasoning in a little more detail, bv?

[Yosarian2]

Does it matter yet? Vote manho with us, Yos! It will get you ladies.

I really don't like the idea of unvoting McSuave until we get more content then this:

oh noz! people are voting me! D: I must catch up, I'll post once I do, I'm about halfway.

That being said, I'm not opposed to a manho lynch either.

[Yosarian2]

So why the sudden push on manho?

I'm a little confused; Pie has been pushing for manho to be lynched since he replaced in. What's so "sudden" about it?

[Yosarian2]

"His bandwagon" = Manho's bandwagon


How quickly you both are to misrepresent what I meant, instead of asking me for clarification.

I'm pretty sure I was asking you for clarification. That's why I started out with "I'm a little confused..."

Anyway, is there someone specifically who's manho vote you dislike?

[Yosarian2]

I'm also not getting an

active

lurking vibe from McSuave. Sure, he's lurking, but it really doesn't seem like he's following the game.

The important thing is is that McSuave is posting enough so he won't be replaced, but not posting content, thus making him an unreadable permanent lurker.

We simply can't allow anyone to do that, or it significantly lowers the town's long-term chances of winning. If there's a lurker who's going to be replaced, it's ok to ignore them and wait for the replacement to say something, but McSuave is posting enough so he won't be. (That itself can be a scum tell, especially if it's deliberate.) It's especially problematic considering the sheer number of lurkers we have; we need to pressure them to post more content, or if we have no other choice to lynch them, and we need to do it before endgame, or town probably loses in endgame due to either lurkerscum who never die or lurkertown who don't vote in lynch or lose and thus prevent the town from having any chance of winning.

[Yosarian2]

The reason why I'm skeptic of a manho lynch is because he's playing as he normally does.

I've played in other games with MrSuave where he did post fluff, but he did participate A LOT more than what he's doing here. If it's down to those two for a lynch, I'd rather MrSuave than manho.

It is true that you have played with me before, but my activity goes up on later days. Anyone who's played with me knows that. And just a question, what is Will doing that will make you group him with me? And who the hell is Will?

If you want to live until "later days", you need to do a little more now.

[Yosarian2]

Those holding back: what's your reservation? I know some of you just have other lurkers you'd prefer to lynch, but do you find them as scummy (lurking aside) as you find manho?

Well, once I vote for a lurker and start putting pressure on them, I really hate to let them off the hook without at least getting some real content from them. If you do that, then it becomes much harder to go back and pressure them later, and kind of gives them a free pass to keep lurking for the rest of the game.

Besides that, no, I don't really find manho any much more suspicious then MrSuave. My problem with the two of them is really the same; neither one has done anything that looks like real scumhunting to me.

OTOH, while I dislike unvoting MrSuave at this point, we're starting to get closer to deadline, and if manho dosn't convince me otherwise in the next 24 hours or so, I'll probably switch over to that bandwagon. I also agree with the lurker wagon on BV.

Frankly, we just have too many damn lurkers in this game, and we have to deal with the problem now or else we'll very quickly get to a point where most of the town is lurking, and then we lose.

Plus, in my experience, I think cult leaders are especially likely to lurk and just try to slip under the radar, even more so then mafia members.

[Yosarian2]

Well I had thought I gave some thoughts in my last post. It was that I'm not sure about the manho lynch. My reason was his scummy way of playing. I was in a game with him before and I think I even got him lynched and was wrong. I get the se feeling from him in this game. I don't think this a good idea ATM. But that's just my thinking.

I assume this means you just asked for a replacement?

Don't pressure someone to replace out, that's just in poor taste, IMHO. Pressure them to play better.

[Yosarian2]

All right.

Unvote

Vote:Manho

That's lynch -1. If you've got any last words, any thoughts on the game, anything you want to say, now's the time.