ZOMBIES! - Zombies take over for the win!!!

[iLord]

Vote: McZombie

I need say no more.

[iLord]

Actually unvote, Vote Cooldog

Misrep is one thing, but hell that was a bad misrep. You can easily tell who voted for Zazier based on one post.

You think he did this on purpose?

Am I seriously getting called out by some people for voting Zombie Lords during a RVS? There is a town sample role with Zombie Lords on it. What is town not allowed to read that?

Only partially doesn't seem like a valid response to "Was that serious?" especially when you justify your point with some sort of rationale. How was your point "only partially" serious?

You're trying too hard.

Also, perhaps to better explain my play: this is my first large game, I'm used to smaller ones. 11 votes to lynch seems like so much to me right now that I'm less thinking about using my vote, trying instead to get a better feel of things.

Uh huh.

Just the post before this would've sufficed. This stinks like scum trying to cover up what they view as an insufficient explanation.

You add onto this in Post 81 with, imho, a very opportunistic vote. You seem to wait until someone else (i.e. bv310) agrees with you before making your vote.


Unvote

Vote: CooLDoG

CooLDoG is dumb, not scum. I'm sure we're all well acquainted with the type.

"Him" would be you, you know...

I also said why I behave the way I behave with votes in post 91.

Anyways, now that you seemingly avoid to give an explanation on purpose and just ignore the issue, unvote, vote: cooldog

We've found scum.

Unvote, Vote: ODDin

for referring to the sample pm.

Congrats on Zazier for catching our second scum! :hifive:

Diamond: I'm not going to keep not voting forever. My playstyle was not a decision made after long consideration but rather the way I viewed the game at the moment. I'm not used to large games, so I neglected my vote somewhat. That, combined with my wish to see cooldog's explanation to his actions, led to me not voting.

Putting my "playstyle" into words helped me see that neglecting my vote probably isn't the best thing to be doing, and then I saw cooldog seemingly decided to avoid the issue and not provide an explanation (and play it dumb?). With both reasons for my not voting lifted - I voted.

The first half is BS - the supposed "correlation" between larger games and neglecting vote is ridiculous.

Second half is another excuse - consistent with the scum profile you've outlined so far.

Way to go being a nice obedient puppy and doing whatever you're told. "You didn't want to get into trouble"? Seriously?

Yep, just keep going after those easy targets. No one will notice, I swear! Still consistent.

[iLord]

*shrug*
I've been trying to explain myself to help people get a better read of me. Giving more reasons to your actions never hurts.
If you think I'm lying, well, nothing I can do about it.

Why don't you start with explaining what you think about McGriddle right now?

[iLord]

Isn't it obvious from post 139? I find his actions scummy, because he seems more concerned with what people think of him and his actions than anything else, and is willing to do whatever he's told.

Okay, just checking. You could've just been saying that he's stupid.

[iLord]

@Ilord

Yea I do think he did it on purpose only because after his initial post in voting for me, i even pointed it out that it was not me. CD still said it was me, then when I again pointed out it was not me that had said anything about Zaziers post being a scum tell CD ignores it completely, and moves on to tate:

Why do you feel scumCD would do such misrep?

[iLord]

To get an easy vote up. Why would townCD ignore the facts of him voting the wrong person and not mention it?

Its hardly a easy vote, nor a longlasting one if he uses such faulty pretenses.

CD doesn't necessarily have to be town - there's nothing really indicating that right now either. What we can assume, however, is that he is irrational. Considering that, I don't believe his misrep is indicative of scum.

[iLord]

Yeah, we should wagon ODDin.

That just sounds unnatural

What was the intended purpose of making this post?

[iLord]

I like kmd's point about xReck. I think I noted this myself too. He has shown very little interest in actually finding scum.

McGriddle's FOS on Yosarian is a bit of an overreaction.

What do you mean by "I think I noted this myself?"

Yos2, you're on the wrong track. McGriddle belongs in the same category as CD.

You're probably completely correct that he doesn't really care about scumhunting. Unfortunately, this attribute isn't exclusive to scum.

[iLord]

Doesn't necessarily mean he is town either, or whatever category you have CD under as well (VI?)

Not sure what "VI?" means, but CD's in the Neutral

Stupid

Irrational category. McG fits in there nicely.

[iLord]

Who else thinks manho's scum?

[iLord]

I am not worried. Four votes and it takes eleven to lynch, not to mention those that voted for me either have no reason or a poor RVS one. You might need more pressure then that to get me to start sweating.

McGriddle- What is with the "I don't care" attitude? Your blatant admittance that your lazy doesn't seem town to me. Is this some tactic you use in your games?

Why reassure us that you're not worried?

@iLord & CD: Yeah it was unnatural. Trying out a new play style. More concise. Less blocks of text no one bothers to read. I don't think CD has done anything scummy. Same with Tate. I think ODDin has and thus is the best choice for pressuring.

iLord, why do you think manho is scum?

Lol, this is so forced it's ridiculous.

-----------------------

Let's compare.

Before:

Only partially doesn't seem like a valid response to "Was that serious?" especially when you justify your point with some sort of rationale. How was your point "only partially" serious?

After:

@iLord & CD: Yeah it was unnatural. Trying out a new play style. More concise. Less blocks of text no one bothers to read. I don't think CD has done anything scummy. Same with Tate. I think ODDin has and thus is the best choice for pressuring.

The first one is a decent length complete sentence with normal punctuation. Then, when I call him out on his post, he magically decides that he was "changing his posting style." He starts chopping up his sentences and abandoning his original wordiness. The style between these two posts is markedly different - the difference even extends as far as to quotes - he uses quotes in the first post, but in the second opts to use the "@" format.

This changing playstyle thing is BS to cover up for ODDin wagon.

Unvote, Vote Diamonddillium

[iLord]

Because I was asked my thoughts on having votes on me.

Hmm, okay. I thought Wolf meant your thoughts on the game so far, but yeah.

[iLord]

iLord, I intended to change my posting style since the beginning of the game. If you don't believe me that's fine. I certainly did over do it my response being choppy. However, compare my posts in general in this game to my posts in other games, and I think you'll see a big difference. Also what exactly do you think I'm covering up? I already stated that my pushing for his wagon was forced or at least in the way I did. I, however, still advocate for ODDin wagon. Do you think I have some ulterior motive for pushing the wagon?

How can/Why should I believe you?

Why did you consciously overdo it?

I did compare you posting style - I just didn't have to look any further than this game. You're first post, as I've shown, was already in a completely different style from your choppy one.

Yes, I think you have an ulterior motive, hence my vote.

You're analytic scum trying to get away with pushing a ODDin wagon DGB-style. Some people never seem to get touched for posting "Bandwagon go go go!" and you're trying emulate that. Unfortunately for you, that failed.

The fact that you've immediately gone defensive is just icing on the cake.

[iLord]

I was tempted to quote each line of your post and respond, but I'm not trying to do that this game.

You can believe me by comparing my first post to my posts from other games. Even if you think there are drastic differences between the first post and the second, you can see the same difference between my posts in this game to those of others. I over did it to emphasize my change in posting style. What ulterior motive did you think I have? And going defensive as a point means you have nothing left. What did you expect me not to defend myself?

Oh good sir, thank you for explaining so clearly how you're so consistent with your posting style change!

Link to other first posts so I can compare? I don't see how there could be a more drastic difference though.

I know you overdid it to emphasize change - that's my point.

By defensive, I meant that you were so preoccupied by defense that you dropped questioning my manho comment completely.

Also note the marked change between the style of this post and the choppy post. Changing your posting, eh?

[iLord]

Uh, where did that come from?

Let's get him to respond first, why don't we?

[iLord]

Oh, Page 4. Ok, definitely should hold onto that all game. I thought it was 1, but I guess it's 4.

Unvote, Vote Evilsnail for my Page 4 gut read.

ODDin, I can't even tell if you can tell that this is sarcastic.

I don't think his vote n ODDin is scummy in itself.

That's true. Him suddenly "changing his playstyle" is very scummy, however.

[iLord]

iLord: why exactly is Diamondilium changing his posting style scummy? I don't really see what it accomplishes for scum.

Yes, I think you have an ulterior motive, hence my vote.

You're analytic scum trying to get away with pushing a ODDin wagon DGB-style. Some people never seem to get touched for posting "Bandwagon go go go!" and you're trying emulate that. Unfortunately for you, that failed.

The fact that you've immediately gone defensive is just icing on the cake.

Your insult does not go by unnoted. Please refer to the site rules before you blatantly insult any player.

I was actually going for assonance there, but I don't see how "dumb" is any more insulting than "village idiot."

Why not explain how this insult affects your read of me?

That wasn't ZazieR, that was me.

No, I'm pretty positive that this is Zazie's handiwork you're trying to take credit for.

[iLord]

1. I don't like ad hom and I don't like insults (especially when they are against the rules of MS). You called CoolDog dumb, that's an insult.

1. Do you think I'm scum for insulting C_D?
2. Why ignore the village idiot comparison?
3. Do you know what ad hom is?

2. Manho voted and didn't give a reason. I asked manho what his reason was and he gave that answer. That had nothing to do with ZazieR.

Fine, you get partial credit for it. But Zazier's still the one that set it up :p.

[iLord]

Are you seriously playing 20 questions with me because I asked you not to insult people?

I can assure you that those questions have significance beyond our petty dispute. Now if you would answer them, that'd be great.

[iLord]

1. No
2. Because I took your tone as being rude and mean
3. Yes

Okay, nevermind then.

To conclude, I did not actually intend it to be rude or mean.

Oh, and just for reference, ad hominem is when you attack the other player personally instead of answering their arguments, which in this case did not really apply at all.

[iLord]

You just assumed there were only 2 scum in a 20 player game? Really?

McGriddle needs to answer this.

And give links to a 12+ player game with only 2 scum.

[iLord]

I haven't been in any 12+ games and every game I have played (for the most part) is a newbie game, so no, I didn't know that scum increased with number of players. I have been in a 12 person a 9 person and a 7 person game, so I have never had more than 2 scum per game. Besides, how is that scummy? wouldn't that be pro-town that I didn't know how many scum there were in this game?

If you'd please provide the link to the 12-player game (Or the name or something), that'd be great.

Cause right now, something with McG's not making sense. I can't tell if he's pretending to not know what a Cult is - I wouldn't put it past him to have not read the signup thread, but I see that as just as likely.

And what is being said is not that you didn't know how much scum existed the game. On the contrary, what is being said is that you did know how much scum existed in the game, namely 2, and you could only know so by being one of them.

That's another thing - this type of attack, although frequently used, is seldom accurately pegging a scum. It makes scum inherently uncomfortable to be blabbing about any type of information on themselves.

i will give McGriddle a newbie pass for now, as he really seems to be new to everything.

unvote, vote: tate

Hello, Mr. Zombie Lord! Why are you voting Tate?

Unvote, Vote: Manho

He's floating by. Under the radar. Like scum do.

Town does this just as often, unfortunately. Some people just don't care.

I meant literally that I knew who my two scum were, meaning I didn't understand the game setup, and was confused about it all.

You know what, this actually makes sense if you look at it. McG says he has two players as scum. People then attack him for knowing how many scum there are and then he gets all defensive about how he's right (Not a scum action here). The argument then devolves into about the likelihood of McG realizing how stupid assuming 2 scum would be, but actually McG has no idea (Which would explain his "wouldn't town not know how many scum there are?")

I am not voting cause I don't feel I found anyone scummy. Happy?

Why so snappy?

[iLord]

Ah, that's what I thought. For the record, saying ongoing would've sufficed. I'm pretty sure that what McGriddle did there is not modkillable (I asked for him to show me the mini he played, irrespective of any attributes of that mini).

[iLord]

@Wolf: McGriddle said he had played in only one mini. I asked for that mini - that's it.

I figured if it was ongoing, things would make some more sense, but I didn't want to give him any ideas on the chance that he was just BSing stuff.

[iLord]

So anyway...

ODDin, what do you think about manho?

[iLord]

Now, why did you ask that? (Why specifically me and why specifically manho?)

You because you just posted and may be scum, manho because he's almost definitely scum.

[iLord]

Why are you so certain that manho is scum?

I'd prefer that manho answers my query for himself first before answering this.

[iLord]

Ok, to answer all of your questions about me:
I usually never place random votes and all of the people I usually play with find scummy to random vote without information. I do, too. I really haven't understood why you place them like that yet.

We have information.

@ilord, i had voted tate before, and for the reason that he refered to the sample role pm.

Do you think that's the most scummy action going on? Referring to the sample role PM?

McG: The setup in that game is closed. You don't know how much scum there are there. Unless, you know...

To reiterate: McG said he's played in only 1 mini. I asked him to link me to it. It happened to be ongoing. End of story.

[iLord]

At first, I was inclined to agree with Yossarian's catch of McGriddle's slip. Now its becoming hard to tell if he's playing dumb or actually thinks there's 2 scum in each game regardless of size. For the moment, Unvote, Vote: McGriddle.

This makes it sound like you can't tell whether or not he's playing dumb. Why vote over ODDin?

[iLord]

ODDin hasn't been scummy lately.

So what do you think of him now?

[iLord]

ODDin- neutral leaning scum. The only notable thing about him is what I voted him earlier for.

That's what I thought - what's your read of McG, then?

[iLord]

Possibly neutral, or possibly scummy.

What the heck is that supposed to mean? Why is McG "possibly" and ODDin not?

[iLord]

Depends on if he's playing dumb or not.

That's the same thing as saying ODDin's scum depending on whether or not he's actually scumhunting.

Your designation "possibly" does not differentiate your McG read from your ODDin read?

Regardless, the issue I'm taking here is that you're voting McG over ODDin. The post where you voted:

At first, I was inclined to agree with Yossarian's catch of McGriddle's slip. Now its becoming hard to tell if he's playing dumb or actually thinks there's 2 scum in each game regardless of size. For the moment, Unvote, Vote: McGriddle.

The first part strongly indicates that your current opinion contrasts with Yos2's. You elaborate and say that you cannot tell whether or not the "slip" is an actual scumtell. I don't understand why you would vote a player who may or may not have any valid points against him over a player that you have a definite strike against (More specifically, a player that you're definitely leaning scum on). Additionally, you follow this up with "For the moment." Not only does this leave you open to jump off the wagon whenever convenient, it also effectively negates any pressure that your vote could cause.

What did you intend to accomplish with this vote?

Also what do you make of this post:

Yeah, we should wagon ODDin.

[iLord]

You know, typically scumhunting involves finding reasons and then thinking some one is scum, not vice - versa.

I don't get what you're saying here.

Anyways, if McGriddle actually did make a slip, what he did was scummier than what ODDin did. My vote on ODDin wasn't useful and he wasn't acting scummy any longer. Reason for voting McGriddle (now that I'm saying it it's useless) was pressure/ wagoning. Seeing McGriddle's reaction could have been helpful.

If you were going for pressure, why put "for now" in your post? - that weakens the effect of your vote drastically. Why did you feel McGriddle's reaction would be helpful specifically in regards to your vote - you were definitely not the first player to vote on this and you didn't bring any new arguments to the table. How did you feel that your vote could generate unique reactions?

You also didn't either of the other parts of the post:

Depends on if he's playing dumb or not.

That's the same thing as saying ODDin's scum depending on whether or not he's actually scumhunting.

Your designation "possibly" does not differentiate your McG read from your ODDin read?

Also what do you make of this post:

Yeah, we should wagon ODDin.

[iLord]

Regardless of whether or not "for now" took away from the pressure, it wasn't my intention for it to. I didn't think there was anything special about my vote, but adding pressure tends to produce reactions.

So you intended for your vote to cause McG to panic (In a townie/scummy fashion?)

It's apparent now that you believe ODDin is scummier than McG. Where's your vote?

[iLord]

I intended for McG to react whether it was townie, scummy, or panicky. Eh, my vote is pretty much useless on both of those players.

Not surprisingly, votes a lot of the time don't have much mechanical point. What you can do is pressure people with them, something that you believe at this point neither your ODDin nor McG vote accomplishes.

Do you feel no other player merits your vote?

[iLord]

None of these wagons are very appealing.

manho needs to get in here and rectify that.

[iLord]

@Manho:

@ilord, i had voted tate before, and for the reason that he refered to the sample role pm.

Do you think that's the most scummy action going on? Referring to the sample role PM?

ABR needs to link if it's not ongoing, so far I see nothing on Reck's wagon. Wolf's last post was scummy for similar reasons Diamond's was a while back

[iLord]

Which is, what, exactly, iLord?

I guess it's kind of different - the "for now IGMEOY Reck" part is that same pointless because it doesn't actually provide any pressure sort of thing, but it's mostly him keeping a foot in the door of both major wagons like whatever post Diamond voted McGriddle.

Why are you not voting each other? Do you find the other scummy or are you just questing each others style of play?

I find pursuing manho as being more productive right now.

For now, I am going to go with a manho vote. His posts are inadequate and screams active lurking.

Vote: Manho

What differentiates him from all the other lurkers?

[iLord]

Active lurking and he is voting me.

What makes his lurking

active

lurking?

[iLord]

RECK, links to games where you were under pressure as town? I can't find any recent ones.

[iLord]

@tate: What do you think about WRP, MrSuave, Zazier, and evilsnail?

What about bv310, crymeariver, or ani?

[iLord]

@RECK: Thanks, I'll look over that in a sec.

Do you know what active lurking is or is there some other reasoning behind you questioning me?

You know, the whole point of my interrogating you is that you don't know what I'm looking for. I'm not about to give you a free roadmap.

Please answer my queries in #490.

[iLord]

Ongoing game where I caught RECK as scum.

I figured as much. Trying to get a sense for his play style under pressure myself, at the moment.

[iLord]

@ODDin: Was RECK under pressure in those examples? I looked post-fisherman-claim and there wasn't anything unusually similar to his play this game.

Basically, I think he always posts like he has done so far, town or scum, and it's a null tell. It's not even really a pressure thing - his posting style is pretty constant across the board whenever he's aroused.

[iLord]

my vote is still on tate, and i still think it is a scum slip. i really haven't seen a townie referring to the sample pm, but i've been scum doing it. (that is a game from another site, and i don't think i can search for it, so don't ask me to link to it). a scum slip is a bigger scum tell than any other arguable scum tell with wifom.

A game a strong scumtell does not make. I bet I could think to loads of games where townies have referred to the sample role PM on this site. Other than McG and Tate, do you suspect any other players?

Unvote: xRECKONERx

You're not cute.

Unvote, Vote: WRP

[iLord]

@Tate: Please answer:

@tate: What do you think about WRP, MrSuave, Zazier, and evilsnail?

What about bv310, crymeariver, or ani?

[iLord]

@Tate: Please answer:

@tate: What do you think about WRP, MrSuave, Zazier, and evilsnail?

What about bv310, crymeariver, or ani?

No.

Unvote, Vote: Tatethetot

[iLord]

ITT tate is prob. scum with at least one person on that list.

Who are you voting?

[iLord]

I don't like the line of questioning. I started off asking him a simple question which he returns with several questions in a row. His so called "interrogation" of me would end up getting him nothing about my alignment, only give him something to go off of on those whom he asked about.

How do you know this line of questioning won't help me determine your alignment? You can't just assume that I know your alignment already - the name of the game is asking questions and reading from the answers.

The worst part is that I am possibly going to get lynched for simply saying no. Is iLord confirmed town? Then why are you following him?

If you understand that you're going to be lynched for not answering the questions, and you're town, why would you purposely act as a detriment to the town?

Why do I have to be confirmed town for you to answer my questions?

I am pretty sure that by my response, everyone is going to know deep down that I am not scum but they can't let me get away with not answering questions so I must be lynched. I guess you need to make an example out of someone.

If no one answered any questions in Mafia, how could the town ever do better than randomly lynching?

[iLord]

You asked me to give an opinion on half the players. Is that honestly going to give you any town vibes about me?

Believe it or not, the players I choose were not random ones. How I feel about you is dependent about your answers, or in this case, your stubborn refusal to provide them.

You should be confirmed town for attempting to lead town.

What is the difference in your eyes between leading the town and providing my opinion?

I think this game is going smoothly enough to bring up suspicions. Answering those stupid opinion questions wasn't needed.

How are the questions "stupid" by any stretch of the term? I asked for your reads on players - that's about as fundamental as you can get.

Additionally, you missed:

If you understand that you're going to be lynched for not answering the questions, and you're town, why would you purposely act as a detriment to the town?

If no one answered any questions in Mafia, how could the town ever do better than randomly lynching?

[iLord]

By the way, not

requesting

wanting

a deadline extension is scummy IMO. Scum benefit from cutting the discussion and having a premature lynch, town don't, and I think it's obvious that there's still a lot of discussion to be had.
IGMEO everybody not requesting a deadline extension, especially those who have posted / will post after farside said she'd be willing to extend the deadline.

Corrected. I doubt any player would admit to not wanting a deadline extension, but I saw no need for twenty "deadline extension plz" comments.

[iLord]

Well, we're not getting one because only four people have requested it, so there's your need.

Clearly, but I wouldn't count not having anticipated this a scumtell.

[iLord]

You could, uhh, express your wish to extend a deadline right now?
If you want it, it won't harm you to ask for it, right?

Way ahead of you - I PM'd Farside right after her post.

[iLord]

EBWOP: mislynnch no lynch

I don't believe so. I think farside plurality-lynches a deadline.

I vote we vote tate.

[iLord]

Animorph, Mcgriddle is the wrong wagon.

I've explained why I think Reck is the wrong wagon to.

Solution? - Everyone votes tate.

[iLord]

there's nothing on here that merits a response as it is all horse shit

You're not helping.

[iLord]

I'm sorry

No you're not, else you'd actually bother to answer Cry's ISO.

[iLord]

I have nothing to say aboot it there's no question, only opinionated crap

There's always something to say. For starters, you should explain why you feel the "opinionated" conclusions Cry draws are incorrect based on the posts he references. If you feel you're repeating yourself, you can link to posts where you had already answered certain points already or just suck it up and retype them.

As it stands, you have the strongest chance of being lynched at deadline so if you're town, get off of your ass and start defending yourself.

[iLord]

Thanks you Now I will respond to these questions later in the day when I have some free time

You've been lurking on and off for the past hour. Those questions don't require any research at all and take five minutes tops to answer. Stop fooling around.

[iLord]

@tate: As I'm sure you know, you still have outstanding questions from #576. It'd do everyone good for you to answer them.

[iLord]

@E_K: It's a cult setup.

Tate, several other members of the town have expressed that they too would like to see the answer to my questions. It's not only unhelpful to me, but unhelpful towards everyone for you to refuse to do so.

[iLord]

Tate is almost as bad a choice as Mcgrid.

Do enlighten me as to why you think so.

[iLord]

Reck is scummy and the others aren't.

"Why" was the key part of my question there.

Why do you feel Tate is not scummy?

[iLord]

I am working on it got a lot of RL problems so please lay off a little.

That's probably true. Unfortunately, this doesn't sufficiently explain why you didn't answer Cry's case before or ODDin's (Or whoever) questions - the answers would've required far less time that the time you've already demonstrated that you were able to spend.

[iLord]

I'm surprised at how good people think my case was

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying anything about how good I think your case is.

[iLord]

awww...that makes me sad and embarrassed...

At least you're making cases. *cough* bv310 *cough*

[iLord]

Is it that you don't agree with the case or should I build my cases differently?

The format was fine.

[iLord]

Mod - Posts like this from CooLDoG is the reason why I'm staying away from the thread. If he doesn't throttle back soon, I'm also going to be asking for replacement.

There is absolutely no reason for how rude and abusive he is being

You should probably replace out. I don't see this game turning the way you want with RECK and CD running around, and no other players really bothered.

I'm not giving him a free pass. What I said was that his newbishness/VIness are a factor which make the issues I have with him to be weaker than they would've probably been if he were a different player.
He is still scummy. I'm just saying that he's less scummy than tate, because in comparison, tate's behaviour isn't VI-ish, and thus the impression is that tate chooses his actions with full understanding of the consequences, the benefits and the disadvantages (unlike McG, as it would seem.)

QFT.

[iLord]

@MCG, good answers just too late. I like my vote on you for now.

How are the answers good? Why does it matter if they're too late?

[iLord]

I'm 90% sure that McG is town at this point.

Tate is still refusing to answer my questions despite having been called by practically every non lurker/replacement to do so. He's most likely scum.

[iLord]

I have totally seen McGriddle play the dumb newb card before. And it was LIES!

unvote; vote McGriddle

If this game's not ongoing, I'd totally like a link.

[iLord]

iLord, does it bother you that I have a gut scum read on you? Why haven't you acknowledged this even though I've pointed it out several times?

There's nothing I can consciously do to change your gut read.

[iLord]

Of the three main wagons currently, I think I find Tate the scummiest, followed by McG, and then Reck. I don't really get any scummy vibes from KMD, but that's based on a limited meta.

Where's your vote?

[iLord]

McG's lying his ass off.

I'm reading him strongly as newb town doing so. McG, if you're lying about the cop claim and you're town, claim so now, else you're getting lynched.

[iLord]

and @ iLord - you want me to lie about myself being a cop? I am not going to do it. I am the damn cop. Lynch me if you don't believe but i am telling you it's a mistake.

Hmm. E_K's question may not be as damning as it seems.

[iLord]

iLord, what made you think that McG is lying as town?

The fact that I read him strongly as town, but he was obviously lying about his cop claim.

It's Day 1 I haven't had the chance to investigate anyone yet. If you are asking me what I will get back from an investigation, it will probably be somewhere along the lines of "This player is from _____ faction" ____ being town or not town.

Yeah, that's the way out.

The other major point against McG's cop claim is that he didn't exactly display standard newb-PR behavior. His explanation for this just sounds like a string of excuses. If anything, it represents a convoluted thought process I don't he actually put together when he expressed his defeatism.

Gut's still telling me that he's lying town, but I'm fine with his lynch if he doesn't admit so.

[iLord]

[quote="ODDin"The mod almost always says the sort of information a cop gets, so this "most likely" is another nail in the coffin of "McG is making his role up."[/quote]

I'm not so sure about this part - especially if farside intended for it to be ambiguous as to whether or not there's other scum along with the cult, she might decide it prudent not to enlighten the cop as to the nature of his investigation.

[iLord]

It's interesting that iLord was actually correct about McG, but seeing that McG was town, I don't think it means anything special.

It certainly means something special to me. I'm not right about stuff very often, and I"ll take the credit for when I am .

Vote: tate

[iLord]

We need to be lynching iLord today, for somehow figuring out McGriddle was lying town when this was totally not obvious.

Vote: iLord

Are you voting me because I correctly pegged McG and you did not? You know I could just not suck at scumhunting.

[iLord]

Yes, I am voting you for correctly pegging McGriddle as lying town, because lying townies are rare, when lying scum is common. It's a weird conclusion to draw.

How is the fact that townies lying being uncommon make it scummy for me to recognize it when it occurred?

There was good evidence that McGriddle was lying. The fact that everyone else jumped to the conclusion that he was scum, but iLord thought he was lying town is weird.

The first sentence here is completely irrelevant. I indicated that he had to be lying. I also notice how closely you stick to the term "weird" to describe my read. Why "weird" and not "scummy?"

I said the reasoning given for the wagon today is crap, not that there isn't a case to be made against tate. There are too many people jumping on the tate wagon on the basis of nothing or weak arguments, like bv310, CMAR, iLord or ani.

Why do you think I'm voting tate.

[iLord]

This is maybe true of the iLord, but CMAR and bv310 weren't voting him yesterday. Ani was, but for the same weak reason. It's scummy when people slip onto a wagon like that.

There's a disconnect with your thought process here. Why was CMAR and my name on your list here:

I said the reasoning given for the wagon today is crap, not that there isn't a case to be made against tate. There are too many people jumping on the tate wagon on the basis of nothing or weak arguments, like bv310, CMAR, iLord or ani.

Additionally, what do you feel about tate not answering questions asking him about his reads on other players? Do you feel it's okay for anyone to do so with impunity?

There are two options. You are either town with an uncanny gut read or you're plain scum. The latter is far more likely.

We're playing a game of behavioral

analysis

. I don't have to rely on "gut reads." McG was most definitely behaviorally town and I noted as much yesterday.

Additionally, you're saying that it's more likely for me to be scum than to be right. You seriously have little basis of effectively saying that I suck at scumhunting.

Both are fine. It is both scummy and weird.

What differentiates in your mind from "scummy" and weird?"

Wolf, I totally don't understand your point. Tell me, what should a pro-town player use there instead of an embedded conditional? An embedded conditional means only that something isn't an established fact. Should I be treating iLord's alignment as established fact? Why wouldn't I concede that there's a chance that I'm wrong?

Yeah, I don't really get it either. Wolf needs to elaborate.

Ah, come on. Let it go already. I opened the thread, saw five votes on tate in quick succession with weak reasoning (such as ani's "vote: tate for not answering anything" or CMAR "antitownishness = not helpful"). So I said the reasoning given for the wagon was crap.

There's another disconnect in your supposed thought process here.

How is "vote: tate for not answering anything" weak reasoning? What's the difference you perceive between my reasoning and Ani's and why did you not consider my reasoning weak?

What do you think CMAR is referring to when she says "antitownishness?"

[iLord]

My initial comment was just on the basis of the page 34 votes. In response to ODDin's question, I had a careful look at all the original votes. I realised, for instance, that you had been on the tate wagon. Somehow I thought you hadn't been.

So you saw five votes in a row just as the day started and immediately assumed that none of the voters could've had reasons lingering from yesterday? Really, now.

I don't think it's straightforwardly scummy. It's obviously not helping the town, but it's very counterproductive as scum. So I don't feel it's a strong tell either way.

How is it counterproductive? If you don't answer questions, there can't be any scumtells on you, and apparently you don't get lynched either. Tate can effectively coast through the game saying he won't answer anything he feels like can be used against him.

Lying townies are just rare. When someone lies about their role, by far the most likely explanation is that they're scum.

You, my friend, have not played enough Mafia if you believe lying townies are rare enough not to be considered a possibility.

In a vacuum, if someone's lying, they're far more likely to be scum. In this situation, however, we had additional behavioral evidence that McG was town, from which I concluded that he's lying town.

Yes, that's more likely. Doesn't mean you suck at scumhunting. It's just that town is the uninformed majority and even skilled players are rarely exactly right, especially in such a detailed manner.

I am very rarely exactly right. I don't see how its detailed or contrived at all. McG read town. It was blatantly obvious he was lying. Logical conclusion to me is that he's lying town.

"Weird" is something that's off or unexpected. If there's a scum motive for this discrepancy, it's scummy. If there isn't, as in not answering questions or communicating only in pictures of animals, then it's not necessarily.

So you don't believe I had a scum motive?

As I said above, I realised you'd already been on the tate wagon yesterday, which means it's not so weird that you didn't give real reasoning for your vote today.

The focus of this question wasn't on me, it was on the difference between me and ani's reasons. I'm voting Tate for the same reasons that ani is. Why say my reasoning is okay, but Ani's not?

Not answering questions.

How is this weaker than my reasoning?

Why is evilsnail getting into so much trouble because he doesn't want to lynch me? That's not normal and I can't help but think that someone is pulling the strings here.

Vote: Diamondilium

I see what you did there.

Unvote, vote Reckoner

Scummier than Diamondilium, yet not smart enough to know which string to pull to close the red curtains. But scummier nonetheless.

You lost me.

[iLord]

That's not what I said. I said I thought you hadn't been on the wagon Day 1. I remembered it wrong, clearly.

I really don't see why we're still talking about this. It's not as if any of the interpretations of my comments that you and ODDin have been digging through are substantially different or as if I've said anything that I don't still stand by.

No, here's what you said:

I said the reasoning given for the wagon today is crap, not that there isn't a case to be made against tate. There are too many people jumping on the tate wagon on the basis of nothing or weak arguments, like bv310, CMAR, iLord or ani.

What you said here is that there's "too many people" voting tate for "nothing or weak arguments," after which you list everyone voting him except for ODDin (Incidentally, this adds another question into the mix, which is why did you consider ODDin to have a legitimate reason?).

You say you understand that there was an attack on tate yesterday and that you had just forgotten that I was on it. If you understand the tate attack yesterday and believe it a legitimate reason, how do you not assume that the people voting were for yesterday's reasons?

It's counterproductive in that it just casts a lot of attention on you. It's like the way CSL he plays. He hardly answers any questions and bandwagons shamelessly. Sure, it's a good playstyle for scum, but it's also counterproductive, because it gets him lynched all the time. So I'm not seeing the scum motive for refusing to answer questions. And let's not pretend that tate coasting through this game refusing to answer questions is a reasonable scenario. Obviously that's not going to happen.

Attention means nothing if it doesn't get you lynched. And tate's coasting through the game without answering those questions like a pro right now. I have no need to pretend anything.

I have played in a truckload of mafia games. Don't tell me what to believe and what not to believe.

Offsite or an alt?

Regardless, I don't mean to attack your experience (Although with your post count, you'll forgive me for being mistaken). I'm pointing out that it is foolish to consider lying townies so unlikely that you don't factor it into your analysis.

If that's all there is to your tate vote, then your reasoning is just as bad.

What else did you believe was behind my tate vote?

Even you have to admit that there are two ways of seeing your McGriddle stance, either you're competent town or scum. It's simply a matter of whether I think the "behavioural evidence" for McGriddle being town is strong enough that your conclusion was reasonable. I don't think it was. You think it is, but the way you're arguing with me suggests that you don't think my point of view is even a possible one. Surely you have to concede that, given this kind of situation, the you-being-scum scenario is not an unlikely one. My point of view is not that unreasonable.

Especially if you have the experience you claim, I believe your conviction that I am scum because of my McG read may be falsified, hence why I am pressing this issue. It certainly is a possible town perspective - kmd expressed as much. But your adamant refusal to consider that your point against me may be far weaker than you initially perceived reads like scum afraid to back down.

Curiously, do you think I am the most likely candidate for scum right now?

I don't mean to frustrate, but probing a player's thought process is the easiest way to discern alignment, especially for experienced players for which you cannot rely on the reliability of reactions.

A few points you failed to respond to:

"Weird" is something that's off or unexpected. If there's a scum motive for this discrepancy, it's scummy. If there isn't, as in not answering questions or communicating only in pictures of animals, then it's not necessarily.

So you don't believe I had a scum motive?

As I said above, I realised you'd already been on the tate wagon yesterday, which means it's not so weird that you didn't give real reasoning for your vote today.

The focus of this question wasn't on me, it was on the difference between me and ani's reasons. I'm voting Tate for the same reasons that ani is. Why say my reasoning is okay, but Ani's not?

Not answering questions.

How is this weaker than my reasoning?

[iLord]

The whole iLord v Evil thing is somthing which I'm not sure I want to take a part in... evil doesn't seem to understand some basic things and iLord has a bad case of TV which seems to be going around. I really want to ask a few things to tate, and I would like more energy in his direction.

@iLord why don't you have your vote on evil? You seem to talk alot about his scummyness... Why do you vote tate?

These two appear to be contradictory, or I'm misunderstanding your use of the term "TV."

My vote's not moving from tate, nor should I stop advocating for his lynch, until he starts giving answers.

I'm still trying to figure out whether or not Evil is scum.

[iLord]

vote: iLord for correctly finding McG fakeclaiming townie. there is no way you can do it unless you are scum.

@iLord, by which post of McG you are sure he is pro-town?

Read arguments re: Evilsnail for more detailed explanation. Specifically, why do you think scumMe would've done that and why you feel you know enough about my scumhunting capabilities to say that there's no way I could've pegged McG.

1 post a solid town read typically does not make. All of McG's posts after he tried to explain his "slip." I'll get into more specifics when I'm on internet that isn't ridiculously slow.

[iLord]

ARGH. I'll go over this again. When I opened the thread I saw a number of people voting tate with very little reasoning and I thought most of them hadn't been on the tate wagon the day before (turns out this just applies to bv310 and CMAR, though none of the people voting were major players on the wagon or anything). That seemed pretty opportunistic, to just jump on a wagon because it was big yesterday without good justification. ODDin actually justified his vote, so it didn't bother me so much.

I can see you're getting frustrated, but whether it be unintentional or not, we're still missing the point.

You claim to have seen several people jump on the tate wagon with little justification. You also claim to have remembered was "big yesterday." Even without looking at the rest of the thread, how can you not assume that these players are just voting for the same reasons why the wagon on tate was big yesterday, regardless of whether or not they were actually on the wagon.

Like if I hadn't been here for Day 1 and only read the beginning of Day 2, I wouldn't assume that everyone's just opportunisticly bandwagoning on a random suspect. The natural assumption would be that tate probably did something really bad on Day 1 and that everyone's voting him because their other target got lynched. Basically, I don't see how you could've mistaken the votes as opportunistic.

It just seemed a different group of players than were pushing the tate wagon yesterday. Don't see why it's so strange that I had this impression.

This is similar to the above, but just because you think it's a different group of players, how can you automatically assume that their reason for the vote is not the same reason why people were pushing the tate wagon yesterday?

I mean, what difference does it make for ODDin to explicitly repeat that he thought tate was scummy for not answering stuff than for CMAR to just vote and assume that the reason was obvious enough?

If he keeps saying it, he's going to get lynched for it. Just because it's hurting the town. Still doesn't mean it makes sense for scum.

He has continuously refused to answer questions and is not lynched. tate's scum motive here is very clear - he's avoiding answering questions he feels people could draw scumtells from.

One thing that ODDin addressed, but you haven't really touched upon, is what do you think my scum motivation was for announcing that McG was lying town?

Alt, technically, though I've never played concurrent games on different accounts.

Forgive me for asking, but Netherlands alt? I don't believe I recognize you if you're on site. Of course then again, I don't really know everyone around here.

I do factor lying townies into my analysis. But, unless you can show me why McG was clearly lying town and it's convincing, I think the scenario under which you're scum is more likely.

manho asked the same question. I'm going to pull up his town posts soon.

I didn't really remember. I had to go look at your vote.

You thought I had a valid reason. I said not answering. There must be a reason that you believed there were any possible valid arguments against him, besides the not answering which you don't consider a scumtell. These points may not be mine, of course, but I'm interested to hear what else you thought was a valid tell against tate.

That's totally not true. I've admitted from the start that it is possible that you are just competent town. If I seem stubborn, it's only because a lot of people have attacked me over the vote.

I don't understand the last part. Why would townie become more stubborn once people attack them?

Yes, that's why I'm voting you. I think there's a legit case on tate also, but there's no rush in getting to that.

Incidentally, you mention the legit case against tate. Most interested to hear what this constitutes.

I didn't say that. I said it was weird and because there is an alignment-based reason for it (scum knew McG was lying town), it's scummy.

Possible alignment-based reason is pointless. I touched upon this above, but what do you believe my scum motive was?

Tate has requested replacement.
*sigh*
I already got all my replacement list at the start gone so this may take a bit of time.

Why am I not surprised.

Unvote, Vote evilsnail

-The mechanic of the game strongly suggests that the cult can grow indefinitely. That is, it's not like once we lynch the cultmaster, the cult loses their ability to recruit. That means that we cannot win this game on lynchings alone. Which further implies that we have at least one vig on our team, with likely even more killing roles (SK, maybe?) out there somewhere. I expect all of you to be killing, every night. Even in a non-cult game it's a good idea. In a cult game, it's basically mandatory.

Can you explain this? How many cultists do you think there are right now?

Also, appreciative FoS: Everyone unvoting me. It's not like the act of getting replaced should be making Tate any LESS scummy in your eyes. I certainly wouldn't be affording you the same courtesy. I would probably make this a vote on Cooldog (I found his post to be the weirdest of the lot) but I should probably know more about the game before I get with the votin'.

I was voting tate simply because he wasn't answering questions. Especially since he replaced out, this is very strongly indicating its a personality thing, and that tate would rather screw over the mod and players than suck it up and answer whatever the town asked. Regardless, if you adopt the same stance (Which I'm almost positive you won't), you'll find our votes returning most quickly.

Tate's actually become more scummy to me for replacing out now, but I've replaced in for moronic townies on here before (*cough*Big Brother*cough*) and I know it's better to have a chance. Nice of you to try and throw suspicion at everyone else, though.

Disagree completely. Replacing out for someone with tate's personality is not indicative of alignment.

This does not sound like you actually think tate is/was scum. It seems like you are hiding behind a gameplay philosophy as a reason to vote someone, not actual saying you think he is scum.

I don't see anything wrong with that. If tate refused to answer questions, then we'd hardly have a choice over whether or not to lynch him. Imagine manho (:P) just suddenly deciding that he doesn't have to answer stuff if he doesn't want to either, and then CD following suit. Tate had to be lynched if he continued to refuse to participate, and should've been lynched yesterday. The thing about tate is that he refused to answer because he believed people would find scumtells in his post. I believe this to be absolutely true regardless of his alignment. I do not have anything else against tate simply because he didn't give me anything to analyze.

[iLord]

iLord, it seems like you are saying that tate was scummy for refusing to participate. That is a valid reason. It's basically why active lurking is scummy.

But wolfy said that he was voting tate for "not playing to win" WHICH HAS NO BEARING ON HIS ALLIGNMENT.

Refusing to participate in tate's case had no absolute bearing no his alignment. His personality strongly indicates that.

Arguable there, however, is that wolf shouldn't have gone for the lynch, but rather should've PM'd the mod/posted for the modkill. Wolf?

[iLord]

I haven't the slightest idea how many cultists there are right now. If I had to guess, I'd say we got 1 zombie (based on the flavor of the opening post) and an SK (so that the game wouldn't just end if we got lucky D1). But that's not founded on much. I'm saying that the cult is probably growing by 1 member/night (as cults do) and so we should be viggin' to try and keep up with them. Plus it's always good strategy for the vig to kill every night, although most people don't realize that.

Cult recruits fail when they try and recruit power roles. You think it's most likely for there to be one SK and one Cult Leader than two Cult Leaders?

So you didn't actually think Tate was scum, you were just voting for him because you didn't like him?

I didn't like him. You can't always just vote for people you don't like though. I was voting him for not answering questions. We can't not lynch someone who refuses to allow us to read him.

[iLord]

@iLord: every cult works differently. I hope you're right. And two cult leaders would just be absurd; the town would have no chance at winning. Every townie's goal would just be to get recruited by the winning cult.

And your plan to lynch everyone who you can't read/doesn't let you read them is absurd. Not scummily absurd, but absurd nonetheless.

Farside's confirmed that cults will kill PR's when they try and recruit them.

What do you think about two cult leaders with one collective recruit?

I don't see how my "plan" is absurd. Lurkers can get replaced/pressured into posting, but if a player has flat out stated that he will not answer anything he doesn't want to, how can we not lynch him?

Like the scenario I outlined earlier, if we do not lynch tate for not answering anything, what is to stop me or you or anyone else to stop answering questions as well? How the hell are we to play mafia then?

[iLord]

iLord: Fair enough; I missed Farside confirming the PR mechanic. As for voting lurkers, that is a matter of policy that's not worth debating (hence why I called you wrong but not scummy), but I just felt the need to register disagreement.

I was noting that lurkers do not need to be lynched, whereas tate did.

McG Case:
I can't believe I'm recreating a case showing how a dead town player shouldv'e been town. This must be a first

I haven't been in any 12+ games and every game I have played (for the most part) is a newbie game, so no, I didn't know that scum increased with number of players. I have been in a 12 person a 9 person and a 7 person game, so I have never had more than 2 scum per game. Besides, how is that scummy? wouldn't that be pro-town that I didn't know how many scum there were in this game?

First part is actually appears to be true, the wouldn't pro-town not know how many scum there are is completely beyond scumMcG's capabilities to falsify. See the thing was reading newer players is that they're incredibly honest in their reactions. Whereas dealing with experienced players you have to consider if the player could plausibly have falsified such a reaction, McG, with all due respect, simply does not have the capability nor the experience to fabricate an absurdly reversed stance here.

Are you kidding? You friggin hopped on the chance to get me modkilled as SOON as it was brought to attention, then when faside gave out a warning you come back with less activity and try to defend yourself against what you did while making it look like you did nothing at all. If you were town why would you want there to be less town? that is ridiculous. Furthermore, you could have dropped it like everyone else did, but no, you wanted to HxC follow the rules despite the fact that if I had broken any rules it would have hurt my other game not this one. You were looking for the easy kill and you know it. It just pisses me off that not a lot of activity is stirring up on you after you did that and people are accusing me of being scum because of a damn mistake in setup on my part.

Again, very telling reactions. He's angry towards RECK, and that's completely understandable from a newb townies point of view - "RECK's scum trying to get a free kill on a townie!" Read the language in this post and tell me that scumMcG could falsify it: "you know it" and "it just pisses me off" are prime examples.

there's nothing on here that merits a response as it is all horse shit

You're not helping.

I'm sorry

This one's a little bit more difficult to explain, but you have to adopt McG's mindset here. How would scumMcG react to this? How would townMcG react to this? Either faction at this point would be considered defeatist. It is completely unlikely that scumMcG would not take up the hand I offered him and start trying to survive. From scumMcG's point of view, I offered a chance for McG a way out. TownMcG would actually react similarly, but not act as opportunistic. Clearly by the way false claimed (Which was definitely not due to mixing up role PM's as he implied), townMcG is very concerned about his image, taking any way, however contradictory, out of the spotlight (This is especially evident when he was under questioning for the two cult "slip"). The way that McG ultimately ended up reacting is fantastically consistent with what we had outlined.

I have nothing to say aboot it there's no question, only opinionated crap

Immediately refuses to regain his will to live. No newb scum would discourage such an attempt to keep them alive. ScumMcG mindset crossed off...

Thanks you Now I will respond to these questions later in the day when I have some free time

...But now the townMcG has taken the earliest opportunity to begin his fight to live. Debatable as always is whether scumMcG could purposely delay such a reaction, and I'm reasonably positive that he could not.

I am working on it got a lot of RL problems so please lay off a little.

The wording here indicates that he believes the attacks are an injustice against him especially because of his real life issues. Only townie players actually feel injustice as they are attacked by logical arguments, as pressured scum understand that logical arguments against him is the entire job of the town.

Is this better play?

The transition away from defeatism is complete at this point.

Fair enough, I wouldn't mind being the lynch today, I know I have bad play in this game, and if it came to a lylo situation and I was still alive I know I would be the killed person. So if you guys decide to lynch me I am with it. I'm not being anti-town, and I am not giving up scum hunting. I am town, and I want to town to win so if it helps town by getting my once-lazy turned-active patooty out of here than by all means do it.

The later the posts go, the more apparent McG was town. Try and imagine scumMTG saying this, especially with the will to continue to play the game rekindled, as pointed out above.

I had a big wall of text to respond to. I didn't have a lot of time to do much, I wanted to play this game, I tryed so hard to get in this game, I am not going replace out due to RL problems, I am going to pull myself up from my boot straps, and get on with this game.

Same as above. There's not much for explanation here, but try to imagine the level of deception that scumMcG would've gone to. This is coming from a player who believed there was always two scum in a setup.

Okay we don't have a lot of time, and it looks like I will be the lynch so claim time for me, I am the cop. I was hoping to not put this out there, but meh, what are you gunna do?

He's teetering way too much between living and dying at this point. Just a post he had resigned himself, and here he regains his will to live. I can't imagine what would have to be going through scum McG's time to invest so much time to defend himself, to give up, and then to be as desperate as to false claim to stay alive.

[iLord]

bv, how do you feel about ODDin questioning you yesterday?

[iLord]

PIG, what do you think about bv, compared to manho?

[iLord]

@iLord: I have bv down as slightly scummier than average, although not (yet) enough for me to advocate a wagon. Why did you name those two - are bv and manho somehow linked?

They're both active lurkers that have ignored requests to contribute. What's the difference in their behavior that has one scummy enough to advocate a wagon and the other not?

[iLord]

Manho's posts came off as forced, bv's not so much.

I don't find lurking scummy. It hurts the town, but in my experience lurkers aren't scum any more than average. That said, I do make a point to scale scumminess by posting frequency (e.g. I would count a strike against manho much more seriously than a strike against ABR, since manho has many fewer posts). Point being, my suspicion of manho has nothing to do with his active lurking. It has to do with his posting, scaled upwards by his lack of posting.

I can be a bit more solid in my case against manho if you'd like, but I wasn't planning on spending the time on that until someone else expressed interest in stringing him up.

Okay, that's cool.

I don't remember why I suspected manho yesterday, I'll have to look back. I don't see the Yos wagon.

[iLord]

manho, two questions:

1) Why do

you

think referring to the sample role PM is scummy.

2) How is my read of McG similar to your own?

[iLord]

@bv:

bv, how do you feel about ODDin questioning you yesterday?

@manho:

1. this is mainly based on my experience that no townie has done so and i have done so as scum, as referring to the sample role PM is the safest thing to do and it can avoid any scum slip.

Hmm, link or ongoing?

How do you know he's referring to the sample PM?

[iLord]

t's an old game in another site, and i don't think i can find the link. i think it is probably my first mafia game, so it's a good scum tell for a newbie scum. newbie scums are always worried to do "wrong" things, and will try their best to avoid them. a random vote is "risky", as the vote may be on a townie, but a vote on the "zombie lord" is always a "good" vote as you won't be voting the wrong player. that vote also avoid casting a random vote in RVS which is also a scum tell by similar reasons.

So this actually isn't about referring to the sample PM, but about not voting an actual player during the RVS?

Yes, but before your time. VitaminR. Don't think many people still know it. Actually played a fair amount under that account (more posts than you anyway! ).

I myself am primarily offsite .

Incidentally, why exactly do you think I'm scum? I don't like your vote on me. Fine, you disagree with me on my vote. That's pretty natural, but, even if you accept the discrepancies you seem to think exist in my reasoning, I don't see what the scum motive is (keeping in mind also that I could have just jumped on the tate wagon - unless you think this manoeuvre was designed to attract attention away from that).

What do you mean by "I don't like?"

I can't explain why you would not have jumped on the tate wagon. I basically believe a lot of the points expressed in #848 for fabricated. Your attack against evolved into a debate of whether or not town me would be capable of doing so and on your tate wagon bashing. You didn't even initiate the discussion over scum motive which ODDin introduced and I attempted to reintroduce, or my actual thought process in pegging McG until after manho asked, both of which would be far more relevant for scumhunting/pushing for my lynch.

Who do you believe is the scummiest player right now?

[iLord]

"I don't like" = it feels off to me. Your vote is pretty OMGUSy and is mostly predicated on the fact that you don't agree with me. Sure, you can wrap this up in "your thought processes seem inconsistent" or "your statements seem fabricated," but basically that is what it comes down to.

You're too vague still - do you think my vote is scummy?

Yes, I am voting you because I don't agree with you that your proposed thought process is your actual one.

- You believe I didn't seriously think the tate votes up until that point were bad, as evidenced apparently by the fact that, when pressed on the details, I had to qualify/revise my points somewhat (which I totally admit, my intial comment was based on my hasty impression of the wagon rather than a detailed examination of it). The scum motive behind is... what is the scum motive behind this? I didn't attack anyone over the tate wagon. It is seriously baffling to me how much you read into this whole train of thought, especially when I think it's totally valid to say that the initial tate wagon today had an opportunistic feel to it. This was all I was trying to say.

Like I said, I can't explain why you don't want Tate lynched. A variety of reasons could suffice here (including your proposed motive for why I declared McG town, but I've no indication which one it is. Actually, come to think of it, this part isn't that indicative of scum. I read your comment as just something to say without any goal of scumhunting behind it (Like something you say for the sake of saying it). It didn't seem like you actually thought any of the players were scummy, and that you had made a careless broad attack without really considering whether the players you attacked deserved to be or actually stood a good chance of being scum. But you've more or less conceded this, and such I'm hesitant to label it exclusively as scum behavior. Basically, I was attacking you because I think you were just attacking the people on the wagon, not scumhunting.

- You believe I haven't considered the town-you scenario in enough detail, because the whole case is fabricated. Now, I don't really see why I need to do this in the first place. The idea that McG was lying town didn't seem obvious to me at all and I saw the same evidence you did. Of course I've considered the scenario in which you're town. I had that exact perspective myself. The fact that your conclusion differed so much from mine is what it makes it scummy. As for a scum motive, I don't see how this is not obvious. The same reason why scum declare town-reads: to look pro-town, to buddy up to a player, to not leave your fingerprints on a mislynch.

It's not that I think you didn't consider meTown in enough detail, it's because I'm thinking you're scum who saw me as a prospective wagon, especially with kmd's death and last words.

I don't see how you could've thought your proposed scum motive obvious enough to not even debate, especially after several other players explained that they didn't see the scum motive. For the motive itself, I think you're twisting together player psychographics in order to create one in which I would have a scum motive. What type of player would I have to be in order to realize that I could not just declare McG was town, but not realize that stating such would not bring any town credit? I'd have to be some manner of a cunning fool. You

hat you propose my thought process consisted of to me.

Why did you not ask for me to explain my actual thought process immediately?

Who I believe is the scummiest player? Well, my top suspects for scum are you and xReck. I also don't like bv310's opportunism and lack of contribution (plus, he's my nemesis).

Why unvote?

- You believe I didn't seriously think the tate votes up until that point were bad, as evidenced apparently by the fact that, when pressed on the details, I had to qualify/revise my points somewhat (which I totally admit, my intial comment was based on my hasty impression of the wagon rather than a detailed examination of it). The scum motive behind is... what is the scum motive behind this? I didn't attack anyone over the tate wagon. It is seriously baffling to me how much you read into this whole train of thought, especially when I think it's totally valid to say that the initial tate wagon today had an opportunistic feel to it. This was all I was trying to say.

Like I said, I can't explain why you don't want Tate lynched. Actually, come to think of it, this isn't that indicative of scum. I read your comment as just something to say without any goal of scumhunting behind it (Like something you say for the sake of saying it). It didn't seem like you actually thought any of the players were scummy, and that you had made a careless broad attack without really considering whether the players you attacked deserved to be. But you've more or less conceded this, and such I'm hesitant to label it exclusively as scum behavior.

- You believe I haven't considered the town-you scenario in enough detail, because the whole case is fabricated. Now, I don't really see why I need to do this in the first place. The idea that McG was lying town didn't seem obvious to me at all and I saw the same evidence you did. Of course I've considered the scenario in which you're town. I had that exact perspective myself. The fact that your conclusion differed so much from mine is what it makes it scummy. As for a scum motive, I don't see how this is not obvious. The same reason why scum declare town-reads: to look pro-town, to buddy up to a player, to not leave your fingerprints on a mislynch.

It's not that I think you didn't consider meTown in enough detail, it's because I'm thinking you're scum who saw me as a prospective wagon, especially with kmd's death.

I don't see how you could've thought your proposed scum motive obvious enough to not even debate, especially after several other players explained that they didn't see the scum motive. For the motive itself, I think you're twisting together player psychographics in order to create one in which I would have a scum motive. What type of player would I have to be in order to realize that I could not just declare McG was town, but not realize that stating such would not bring any town credit? I'd have to be some manner of a cunning fool. You

hat you propose my thought process consisted of to me.

Why did you not ask for me to explain my actual thought process immediately?

Who I believe is the scummiest player? Well, my top suspects for scum are you and xReck. I also don't like bv310's opportunism and lack of contribution (plus, he's my nemesis).

Why unvote?

[iLord]

maybe you are right then, but i see the "referring to the sample PM" part more important than the "not voting an actual player" part.

How do you know he referred the sample PM? Wouldn't the phrasing of his post actually indicate otherwise?

[iLord]

he said it himself.

That's slightly out of context. What happened on Page 1 went something like this:

tate: Vote Zombie Lord(s).
evil: Hey, only scum know scum flavor. Vote tate.
tate: Look a sample role PM, dummy!

So it really doesn't indicate that tate was referring to the sample role PM for his vote.

Additionally, what do you think about Tate having an "(s)" at the end of Zombie Lord?

------------------------

farside will eventually probably take action and get Mr. Suave replaced. It doesn't matter that he picked up his prod/posted that he will catch up - in all essence he still hasn't given any content.

She even has rules ready for this - either Mr. Suave gets 5 prods and is forcibly replaced or

10) If I catch people lurking or posting just to post so they don’t get caught by me will end up with a post restriction that will result in much chaos and not be helpful. I do this because posting crap is not helpful.

Either way, there's not much point for us to look there. bv's far more interesting of the lurkers.

[iLord]

@bv:

bv, how do you feel about ODDin questioning you yesterday?

Vote: bv310

[iLord]

iLord, I feel that ODDin's questioning of me was a part of the game. It didn't particularly bother me. Why do you keep bringing it up?

Why didn't you answer him before and why didn't you answer me until I voted you?

[iLord]

For the lurkers, I'd rather have a bv, manho, then Mr. Suave lynch in that order.

[iLord]

@bv: Why were you voting tate?

I didn't answer you because I didn't see how it mattered. Players question each other, it's how the game is played. I didn't feel insulted or angry about him questioning me, and didn't see how it mattered.

What did you stand to lose from answering? What did I stand to gain? Why did you decide upon answering?

As for his question in iso91, I did answer him. He asked me why I don't post more, I explained, we all moved on. What purpose do you see in dragging it up?

I actually misread/forgot pieces of that exchange, so nothing here against you.

It is true that you have played with me before, but my activity goes up on later days. Anyone who's played with me knows that. And just a question, what is Will doing that will make you group him with me? And who the hell is Will?

Reads on all the players in next post or ask for replacement. I don't care how far you are in the thread, just any type of content will suffice.

[iLord]

@manho:

That's slightly out of context. What happened on Page 1 went something like this:

tate: Vote Zombie Lord(s).
evil: Hey, only scum know scum flavor. Vote tate.
tate: Look a sample role PM, dummy!

So it really doesn't indicate that tate was referring to the sample role PM for his vote.

How does this conversation indicate that tate was referring to the sample role PM?

i think it indicated more that tate is being caution when casting the vote. that makes it more scummy.

The sample role PM has no ambiguity - it says "Zombie Lords" with the "s." Does this not indicate that tate, in fact, was not referring to the sample role PM?

[iLord]

@ilord, maybe you are right then.

Really, the issue here isn't you being right or wrong, it's what you were thinking. Why did you think that tate was referring to the sample role PM? Simply because he mentioned Zombie Lords at all?

I think all the manho voters except for pie would be equally happy with a bv lynch. I suggest we move there.

[iLord]

iLord: But you don't think bv voters would be equally happy with a manho lynch? Porque?

It's quite possible, although at this point I'd doubt that anyone okay with either a manho or bv lynch would not have moved over to the most likely wagon. I personally would much rather prefer a bv lynch (hence me suggesting we move there), for reasons I'll elaborate more on after manho explains his thought process in light of the revelation I brought up.

[iLord]

lets add not answerng things to manho. He posted and didn't even try to answer starbuck. I like his lynch. I think he should claim now, as pie just said. I can't really say much now... sorry.

I didn't notice that. Manho, why didn't you explain your CD vote?

[iLord]

Well I had thought I gave some thoughts in my last post. It was that I'm not sure about the manho lynch. My reason was his scummy way of playing. I was in a game with him before and I think I even got him lynched and was wrong. I get the se feeling from him in this game. I don't think this a good idea ATM. But that's just my thinking.

I assume this means you just asked for a replacement?

[iLord]

yes, i think tate was referring to the sample role pm as he mentioned zombie lord.

Wait, how does this make sense? Town and Scum both should have Zombie Lords in their Role PM.

[iLord]

Don't pressure someone to replace out, that's just in poor taste, IMHO. Pressure them to play better.

Your a lot more optimistic than I am as to what effect words of encouragement will have on people like Mr. Suave. We gave him a chance to provide any sort of thoughts at all on each of the players and he promptly ignored us and just repeated what he said before. This is more or less unacceptable.

[iLord]

Well that's all I honestly think. I tend not to focus on more than a few people at once. That's just how it is. That's why I do better late game.

I'm not unreasonable. Give any thoughts on any

one

other player, and tell us how far you've read in the thread.

[iLord]

but why would a townie refer to his own role pm? i doesn't make sence.

I don't even know what to say to this. Are you asking me why a townie would read his own role PM?

I largely don't agree with a manho lynch and would rather lynch someone like bv as pointed out by someone else. Scum in my opinion would not claim VT when at L2 as this does not save them. I'll read through manho's ISO again, but at first glance I did not find much there and I don't think I have yet to see a case in one place on him.

That's WIFOM in the finest sense of the term.

---------------------------------

Unvote
Vote: manho


Normally, you are more contributory than this when you are town and are at least scumhunting.

I'm never played with/read manho before, so I can't talk about the actual reason, by why are you voting so late? manho hasn't been scumhunting for a while.

[iLord]

I'm voting so late because I have experience with manho in multiple games. Sometimes he does pull that kind of thing at the beginning, but will come in late in the day with some sort of scumhunting. I've asked him repeatedly for a case on CooL and he refuses. I'm all for giving people chances, but manho, imho, isn't playing his town meta. At this point, he's a hindrance to the town and we should get rid of him.

Just to clarify, what do you mean by saying he's a "hindrance to the town?" You do believe he's scum, and not town, correct?

[iLord]

a townie will read his own role pm, but they don't need to read every wordin the pm, and they probably won't. for example, i open the pm, see the word townie bolded in the first line, and then close it. the last line of the pm is always the same in almost every game, regarding your own alignment. so it didn't make much sence for a townie to read his own role pm word-by-word, and remember the word "zombie lord" so hard and then use it in his first post.

So your vote on tate is based on the assumption that townTate would not have read his own Win Con?

Seriously, you need to stop making up arguments or you're going to be lynched. If it was a baseless vote, just say so and we then the town can move on and analyze from there. Townies make poor attacks all the time, and there's nothing wrong with telling the truth rather than trying to scramble together an excuse. It's incredibly difficult to distinguish between scum and town at this point if you proceed to desperately assert yourself like this.

So, i'll ask you again: What was your thought process for voting tate?

[iLord]

Just got back.

evilsnail above looks interesting. ABR v RECK ain't going anywhere. Yos was likely a recruit target. CMAR has made a minor scumslip that may or may not mean anything.

More later when I get a chance to look at thread in detail.

[iLord]

evil, you confident that RECK is scum?

[iLord]

1/1's horrible for scum this game if we assume they only have 2 still.

The choice is pretty easy here either RECK or evil has to be scum - we lynch one and if he turns up town than we lynch the other. I'm inclined to believe that it's RECK, because of the above.

Vote: xReckonerx

[iLord]

Unvote

O.K. one claimed tracker and the other claimed cop. We should let this blow over and make the scum make the decision for us. If they don't NK one of them, we'll gain more info and when we do lynch one of them we will have a lot of information about the game.

If you had two cops counter claim each other in a game where there's only one cop, would you keep them both alive?

[iLord]

What ABR said actually makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure why I've never thought about doing this before.

ABR, at what point do you think we should get around to lynching one of the two?

lol @ the ninjaing.

[iLord]

Because only Vanillas get converted to Zombies.

Ooh, nice catch.

[iLord]

Ooh, nice catch.

Wait no, I'm delusional. evil's talking about being afraid of being killed by the recruiting cult.

[iLord]

I don't like it either. Scum will claim blocked, or an inno result on scum/guilty on town.

You think scum have RB's this game?

I don't know what you're talking about on the second part.

[iLord]

That's not what I meant (wow, you really are getting me wrong today)

I meant that scum will claim to be blocked, although not really blocked, so they didn't get a result.

Scum can't claim they got RB'd because it's extremely unlikely for the cult to have one.

[iLord]

Yeah, evil just typo-ed right there, nothing really telling.

[iLord]

How are you so sure that he typo'd? That's mighty convenient.

It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

[iLord]

Tomorrow IMO. One of evilsnail and Reck will find out more information, or one will die and we lynch the other.

Yeah, in that case, the disadvantage is negligible and the extra result is nothing to scoff at. I'm fine with finding someone else to lynch then. Dunno who though, but I don't think we should lynch bv or ODDin.

[iLord]

Hey, SlySly.

I can't see RECK being town. I'm not sure what we lose from waiting a day. Better safe than sorry?

[iLord]

I don't buy any of SlySly's attacks - his evil one is especially crap.

I definitely don't want a CMAR lynch either.

I do need to figure out who I want lynched as an alternative to the evil/RECK thing.

Why has MrSuave not been replaced yet?

[iLord]

Defense noted, iLord.

The question is, for who?

[iLord]

iLord - what do you think about ABR? He's the only player being voted you didn't mention.

Why are people voting him?

[iLord]

It's Reck, for tunneling (at least, that's what I got out of it)

For some reason I was under the impression that that was one of SlySly's attacks. It's weak as well.

Who was I attacking?

Quite a few people.

iZombieLord, is it better to lynch scum or dumb townies?

Scum.

[iLord]

I agree. Do you agree that it is scummy to push the lynch of a dumb townie as opposed to looking for scum?

You'd have to be scum to know that said dumb player is dumb townie.

[iLord]

I get the feeling that is exactly the case with your end of D1 nostradamus-like prophecy of McG's alignment. I think it is scummy that you took the time to make a self-proclaimed first time of "building a case to show the dead townie was giving off town reads." I think as town, you, in particular, would do a simple "*shrug*, I was wrong" and get back to the business of scumhunting. Even at your prophetic announcement, you still expressed you were still okay with lynching the dumb townie.

I don't get the middle part - are you asking my why I made a case on townMcG after he was dead?

My theory was that he was townie falseclaiming cop. McG refused to say that he was lying about being cop. I concluded that despite my reads, he had to be scum, because he was most definitely lying about being cop.

Can you remind me of what your case that manho was scum was all about on D1?

I misinterpreted the post where he explained his vote on Tate by saying "look at the sample role PM" as evidence that he himself had looked at the sample role PM. I don't remember why this stopped being valid or rather how I misinterpreted it, but it didn't make sense when I looked back and ISO'd him a while back.

Yep and I don't like those who are saying there is nothing to my observations about Evils claim, especially Oddin who was kind enough to bring up Occum's Razor earlier in the thread.

Quite honestly, you're completely wrong, but it'd do very little good, especially towards you personally, to argue about it.

Your reasoning is bogus. You, myself and iLord all recently witnessed a Slyscum that was under absolutely no pressure to do so pay dearly for fake claiming. I would point it out for the rest to take a look at if the game were not ongoing. Like kmd pointed out to do, I looked for myself and saw it in Evils fake claim.

Apparently evil's more experienced than he looks and note also that he was also in the referenced game. I don't want to dwell on discussion of the ongoing game, but I daresay, with all due respect, that evil is not dumb enough to try something like this, unless he is the recruit.

I don't believe the cult has gotten a successful recruit yet - it's the simplest explanation for everything.

I will even go out on a limb here, I am willing to bet that I am on the right track with a few things and I bet that I if I survive this day, I will be recruited into a cult to shut me up. So if I act at all different tomorrow, start lynching those I am pushing for.

Lol, you can't benefit for making comments like this.

[iLord]

No, I am saying that the most likely reason behind you doing it would be because you are scum and want to make yourself look good. If you were town, I don't see you bothering to make such a display, I think you would *shrug it off and get back to scumhunting.

Umm, I was asked to explain my thought process. Why would I just shrug it off as any alignment? That's more of a laziness tell than anything.

I think it is a little strange that you can remember that now, but you couldn't during D2. You were pushing pretty hard on D1 to get people suspicious of manho.

You need to actually read the quotes you're quoting. I said on D2 that I couldn't remember why I thought manho was scummy so I'd look back. Guess what I did a few posts/days later?

I think the cult would love for us to believe this. It sure doesn't surprise me that you are pushing this belief. I doubt it is the case, though.

Just because the cult would love us to believe it doesn't make it any less probable. Farside said this was a cult game, and that PR's die when recruited. We have two dead PR's in two successive nights and no claimed vigs. Logical conclusion is that there were two failed recruits.

Honestly, guys, SlySly has yet to put out a cohesive argument today. I would really like to stop entertaining his little tangents and get on with the day. I'm most willing to string up CoolDog or CMAR, would be willing to entertain a few others. What are all y'all's thoughts on those two?

Honestly, neither of them appeal.

CD got replaced in another game, and Sly, are your argumnets ALL this bad?

Hypocrisy ftw?

Town and Scum both should have Zombie Lords in their Role PM.

Why do you think this?

Scum = Zombie Lords.

Seriously, guys. Stop getting baited by SlySly. He's like a troll, but on accident.

Incidentally, those are the best trolls.

More relevantly, SlySly is not incapable of bringing up decent arguments. His cases so far have just not been convincing to me (And not particularly so, as the cases of other players share this quality).

Right now, Pie is the obvlynch. He wants our PR's dead and has been fishing for them since his arrival. His predecessor was so scummy he was 2 votes from lynch and no one other than me has even bothered looking at him since he replaced in. Quit allowing him to coast just because he has a new name. He would love to leave the town in a position of only being able to take ZL's out with the lynch, leaving him and his scummidy scum buddies to drive mislynches like they have the last 2 days. Ask yourself, why did Tate replace out? I think the answer is obvious: he was caught scum with no out.

Tate replaced out because his stubborn personality would not permit him to fold and start answering me. As I've explained, this behavior is not exclusive to scum. He could be scum with no out, but he could equally likely be a townie who'd rather replace out than get mislynched.

I would bet they are. The cult leaders in the games I have played in before were.

You know if the cult leaders aren't II, this is exactly what the cult leaders would want the town to think.

[iLord]

You are assuming there is only 1 ZL. At least one cult game I played in started with 2 CLs and 2 Cult Goons. I really doubt there is only one ZL in this game especially since the Sample PM clearly states Zombie Lords. I doubt it started with goons though because I think the same PM would state the win condition as being when the cult was eliminated. I could be wrong about that, though. There could be up to 6 cult right now with this thinking, 2 ZLs, 2 goons, and 2 recruits.

My running theory is that there's probably two Zombie Lords with one shared recruit. Two recruits a night would make it almost impossible for the town to race (1 recruit a night is already borderline impossible, which is why farside probably made PR's unrecruitable).

Wasn't it you that was saying he was only refusing to answer to prevent incriminating himself? Again, I am paraphrasing.

That's true. As I explained, I don't believe that this was necessarily indicative of scum for Tate personally. He was avoiding answer my questions because he was afraid I was going to draw scumtells from them. Especially the way tate explained it, this worry easily be expressed from either alignment: either he's scum who's worried about getting caught behaviorally or townie afraid of getting attacked because of his response.

Tate's pride and tenacity are paramount here when you consider how he would've acted in this situation.

[iLord]

iLord: I interpreted your post as saying you've played with SlySly before. Is that accurate? Does he usually act like this?

I've played with him once before in an ongoing game. I don't quite know what you mean by "this," but if you mean his belligerent attitude, that's common with my limited experience.

Tate's pride and tenacity is what makes me think it is more likely he was caught scum and replaced out. We saw this in Big Brother 2.

Tate exhibited similar behavior as scum in BB2?

--------------

PR v recruit depends a lot on the PR. Cops are almost completely useless in this game, but vigs are essential when the recruits start gathering.

Come to think of it,

cops are almost completely useless

. pie, what do you think about the cost of lynching RECK today, then?

[iLord]

Missed the last page

The "active reason" to out a vig that can account for Kmd/Yos's death is that we're currently ascribing those deaths to a failed recruit attempt. If a vig instead took credit for them, we would know there was probably a recruit among us, which lends much more credence to the "ES is a recruit suicide-bombing Reck" theory, which means we probably shouldn't lynch Reck.

There are also other good reasons to wait a day, I think.

I don't understand what you're saying here - you think there's unclaimed vigs?

What other good reasons?

Just because of games the cult games I have played in the past, I suspect two ZLs of 2 different factions, each with their own recruiting abilities. I suspect there are 2 recruits so far and 2 have failed. That is pure speculation though. And I think Pie is trying to out the vig(s) to take ZL killing power away from the town.

I doubt there's 2 factions - flavor would not support that at all.

The flavor text simply suggest I can tell who's infected/not infected. So I don't know if "infected" means recruits, or anyone who is a zombie.

That probably indicates you can find recruits.

[iLord]

No, but another pridefully, tenacious person did. They replaced out when they were caught scum and everyone backed off and let the replacement live until endgame. We should not allow that to happen here. Pie is obviously PR bloodthirsty.

I'll take a look at it.

Cops aren't useless, with an infected result, a vig would know not to waste a shot on the infected player.

You misunderstand me. I believe RECK's flavor to indicate that he can find both leaders and recruits (Infected would just mean Zombies, like in L4D, and not just infected players). A town result with cops, then, won't mean much, and neither would an infected one.

[iLord]

No - I haven't a clue if there are vigges in this game or not. I'm saying that if there is a vigilante (or other killing role) who is responsible for the death of Kmd or Yos, they should claim their results. That way, we know that the cult has probably recruited successfully at least once. This information would be very helpful because if we ARE in the presence of a recruit, it is less likely that EvilSnail is tracker and Reck is a Lord and more likely that EvilSnail is a recruit and Reck is a cop. So we probably shouldn't lynch Reck.

I understand all of this except for the how the bulk of this correlates with the last conclusion. You say that vigs should claim so we can see whether or not ES is a recruit. There have been no claimed vigs (And the shots taken would've been bizarre for a vig). Why does this suggest that we probably shouldn't lynch RECK?

[iLord]

RECK, you're overplaying the "OMG THIS TOWN IS SO F**** STUPID!" stuff. It doesn't appear natural at all.

[iLord]

I want SlySly to stay in the game - someone who's posting 10 times a day is infinitely preferable to someone who posts once every other day.

[iLord]

You think Evils evolving claim appears natural?

I don't see how it's unnatural.

[iLord]

I'll be willing to lynch one of Reck/ES tomorrow. Even if Reck's scum - and I think he is - there's a substantial amount of information to be gained from waiting a day. I also agree with SpyreX - by far the most likely scenario is 2 (or more?) Lords on the same team. This means we stand to lose nothing by waiting.

You know, I agreed with this before, but I seriously reconsidered a while back. A cop does not seem to be half as valuable as it is in a normal game and I have not found any other serious targets. This coupled with the fact that I believe that if we don't lynch RECK, we're almost definitely going to mislynch makes me hesitant to lynch anyone else today.

E:Uh, I got some info that Reck's a liar.
E:Uh, Reck didn't investigate bv on night one, that's my info.
ABR: If this so, I wonder why E didn't push for Reck's lynch on day two.
E:Uh, I'm the sheriff, I didn't get the info until yesterday(note, not last night)
Oddin: E, why didn't you make a case to get Reck lynched yesterday?
E: Uh, I thought about it but decided to try and let the Reck wagon form naturally. Repeat Reck didn't investigate bv on N2.
Several people: You said it was N1.
E: Uh, that was a typo. I didn't get my results until N2.
Sly: E, you are a liar. You tried to play off to Oddin that you had results on Reck during D2 and waited to see if the Reck wagon would form naturally. You also never pointed out which night you used your action.
E: Uh, oh I missed "yesterday" in Oddin's post and I clearly stated before this obvious lie that I used my action on N2.

Even in your admittedly biased recanting, I don't see how evilsnail's behavior is unnatural. If anything, it appears that he's nervous or scatterbrained. RECK very clearly was overdoing his cursing the town schtick - resignation is the natural progression to flipping out, not just more profane exclamations.

[iLord]

Find something in my biased recanting that isn't true.

I didn't say that your retelling of the events was incorrect content-wise - I was referencing stuff like adding "Uh."

[iLord]

RECK was acting like RECK. Evils was acting like a liar easing into a fake claim.

RECK was acting like how he felt townRECK would've acted. Behaviorally, evil's been completely neutral, with his advantage being that he came out first.

[iLord]

Cops are mad valuable if they can detect Lords, hardly valuable at all otherwise. If we wait a day, Reck investigates ES (as a precaution against scum bus drivers or any other weirdness that could have caused this) or another (this applies if he flips town). Hypothetically, if we have other cops, they can check Reck and we can figure out the results of cop-on-Lord action (this applies if he flips scum).

Also, leaving both alive prevents either from getting nightkilled. This one isn't as convincing to me - as we've previously discussed, I'd be more than happy to see either one get nightkilled - but hey, maybe it'll swing someone out there.

I definitely think that we're operating under different premises on valuable the cop RECK has claimed would theoretically be. He's claimed to get results of Infected or Not Infected. Flavorfully, this could not differentiate a cult leader from a recruit. I don't quite get what you're talking about in regards to the cop investigations. Are you suggesting that we clear up this situation through investigations (Whether they be RECK's or other cop's)?

[iLord]

After briefly looking through a Reck ISO, I notice a few things:
1) xReckx never even mentions bv310. Take this for what you will, but it makes me think that he wanted to not talk about wagoning bv310 for lurking because he knew he was innocent.
2) xReckx attacks ODDin a few times throughout D2. This provides reason enough to investigate him that night.
3) xReckx truly seems to passionately defend himself after being called guilty by evilsnail. While this may just be appeal to emotion... [WIFOM]
4) If you think about it, xReckx's claim makes WAY more sense than evilsnail's claim. The night actions of "sheriff" seem rather ridiculous and made up to me.

I highly disagree with a xReckx lynch as I tend to actually believe him more. But I also believe we should target someone else with our lynch today rather than evilsnail, xReckx, ODDin, or bv310.

You're analyzing the content of his posts, but you're not factoring motive.

Do you believe that the cult successfully recruited someone?

Okay, xReck, I'll explain why I really think you're lying and there's nothing messing with my results. Were your results on bv310 and ODDin exactly the same?

This should've came out a long time ago.

[iLord]

There's almost no way a vig wouldn't have gone for the many lurkers, rather than shoot at kmd and Yos2.

That's another good point. No I don't believe that the cult successfully recruited someone. They either attacked Yos last night or attempted to recruit whoever Yos was protecting.

So you believe that ES is a Zombie Lord trying to get towncopRECK lynched?

[iLord]

replying to a prod, I'll post more when I get back from work.

How many prods is that already? Surely we can get MrSuave replaced if there are any willing replacements. It's blatantly obvious that he's not giving any content and just posting to avoid getting replaced.

[iLord]

No, this also seems rather unlikely. We seem to agree that there is between 1-2, 3 at the most zombie lords. If we also agree that the zombie lords have killed both nights without the interference of a vig, then it seems rather stupid to risk one of your zombie lords to kill one other person. Therefore, I believe that either something interfered with evilsnail's results or that there is a possible SK who has done the killings and evilsnail is in fact a recruit. There is also the possibility of xReckx lying, but I still find that unlikely.

1) You believe the behavioral evidence is strong enough to justify a "silent" redirector ("silent" as in his target is not notified of being redirected)? Don't redirectors and the such typically notify their target? And I can hardly imagine what type of framer would've been necessary to fool evilsnail's ability.

2) You posted not a few posts before that you didn't believe that the cult has successfully recruited. Now you're introducing the possibility of an SK permitting the cult to have successfully done so. Why the change of mind?

[iLord]

We have half the population resolute in lynching Reckoner, and the other half too scared to risk lynching a claimed cop with questionable usefulness. It seems that this latter half should come up with a better candidate for lynching, whose alignment isn't influenced by Reckoner's flip. When this half comes to the conclusion that they can't come to an agreement because of their inherent dissident nature, we will lynch Reckoner and subsequently obtain the pertinent information essential to find the zombie lords post-reck flip. Do not make this task more difficult than it is.

"Resolute" does not accurately represent my mindset. I'm am more than willing to listen to logical arguments to the contrary.

[iLord]

-All the cool kids are voting for CMAR.
-If you vote for CMAR, you will be cool too.
-Therefore you should vote for CMAR.

What if I would rather be a nerd?

[iLord]

2) That post was in regard to a vig because there was no way a vig would kill to rather protown players. It is still very possible that an SK would kill protown players and the scumteam is still recruiting. Therefore, evilsnail could be a recruit [ends WIFOM argument]
Mostly because I am unsure who is town and who is scum, I still think we should vote someone other than xReckx, evilsnail, bv310, and ODDin

That post could not be in response to a vig - Starbuck did not introduce that topic until #1827. You posted "That's another good point. No I don't believe that the cult successfully recruited someone. They either attacked Yos last night or attempted to recruit whoever Yos was protecting." in #1826.

There's something fishy here.

Unvote, Vote: CMAR

[iLord]

All of this SK talk from CMAR has made me think of a few things I hadn't even thought of before. Evils being a SK could make some sense. I find it more likely that he is a recruit, as I would suspect an SK to fly a wee bit more under the radar than an ease into lie of a claim, but CMAR has given me some food for thought.

There's no way in hell that evil is dumb enough to pull this as SK. It'd make even less sense than being a Zombie Lord.

[iLord]

Don't get ahead of yourselves - I'm voting CMAR.

[iLord]

2) That post was in regard to a vig because there was no way a vig would kill to rather protown players. It is still very possible that an SK would kill protown players and the scumteam is still recruiting. Therefore, evilsnail could be a recruit [ends WIFOM argument]
Mostly because I am unsure who is town and who is scum, I still think we should vote someone other than xReckx, evilsnail, bv310, and ODDin

That post could not be in response to a vig - Starbuck did not introduce that topic until #1827. You posted "That's another good point. No I don't believe that the cult successfully recruited someone. They either attacked Yos last night or attempted to recruit whoever Yos was protecting." in #1826.

There's something fishy here.

Unvote, Vote: CMAR

CMAR - this?

[iLord]

CMAR needs to not lurk till deadline and answer my point.

[iLord]

Seriously? I'm on sprimg break and at the beach. Maybe you should instead attack some of the actual lurkers like bv and mr suave...

You could've answered my solo point in the time it took you write this post. At this point, I've fine with a CMAR lynch today, provided we lynch RECK tomorrow. I'd still rather lynch RECK today, if more people are fine with that.

[iLord]

Sorry, I actually missed that.

I'll break it down:

Me, Post #1825: Do you believe the cult successfully recruited someone?
You, Post #1826: No
Starbuck, Post #1827: What do you think about a vig?
You, Post #1831: Not likely.
Me, Post #1832: You think that that ZombieLordevilsnail is trying to suicide against townRECK?
You, Post #1833: No, he must be a recruit.
Me, Post #1836: You said likely no recruit before. What gives?
You, Post #1842: I meant it in regard to a vig.

If you look above, you'll see that the topic of a vig was brought up, after you said you didn't believe the cult successfully recruited. My question is what changed your mind?

[iLord]

I would also not be against a MrSuave lynch, just to be rid of the distraction for later on. Especially since he's so vehemently against contributing.

Honestly, MrSuave just needs to get replaced. I'd much rather have players like CMAR who are actually posting and attempting to contribute than his blatant disregard for his responsibilities as a player.

[iLord]

Wait, CMAR, did you see this?:

I'll break it down:

Me, Post #1825: Do you believe the cult successfully recruited someone?
You, Post #1826: No
Starbuck, Post #1827: What do you think about a vig?
You, Post #1831: Not likely.
Me, Post #1832: You think that that ZombieLordevilsnail is trying to suicide against townRECK?
You, Post #1833: No, he must be a recruit.
Me, Post #1836: You said likely no recruit before. What gives?
You, Post #1842: I meant it in regard to a vig.

If you look above, you'll see that the topic of a vig was brought up, after you said you didn't believe the cult successfully recruited. My question is what changed your mind?

[iLord]

Yes, I must have missed this one: I think there is only one thing that could have changed my mind and that is the suggestion of an SK. When I said I didn't think they recruited the first time, I don't think an SK ran across my mind. At that point I think I was only thinking of the fact that they could recruit and kill.

That's what I had thought - and that's why I take issue with this. This is not a townie mindset that you're using. A town player would look at the evidence and draw a conclusion. What you're doing here is the complete opposite - you first assumed that you wanted to argue that RECK was town, then after I explained why that's unlikely, you scrambled together arguments (Such as the SK one that you didn't consider before) to support your conclusion.

[iLord]

Yes, I must have missed this one: I think there is only one thing that could have changed my mind and that is the suggestion of an SK. When I said I didn't think they recruited the first time, I don't think an SK ran across my mind. At that point I think I was only thinking of the fact that they could recruit and kill.

That's what I had thought - and that's why I take issue with this. This is not a townie mindset that you're using. A town player would look at the evidence and draw a conclusion. What you're doing here is the complete opposite - you first assumed that you wanted to argue that RECK was town, then after I explained why that's unlikely, you scrambled together arguments (Such as the SK one that you didn't consider before) to support your conclusion.

You did not change my mindset. I still think that Reck is possibly town as the evidence throughout the game goes well with his investigations. I scrambled together no arguments. When people questioned me and suggested new possibilities, I responded to them.

I'm not saying your mindset - I'm saying that you came up with a conclusion first, and then looked for arguments to support your conclusion. You were the one to introduce the possibility of an SK, not anyone else so don't try and blame it on others.

Maybe you weren't as certain about me as you tried to make it look.

That's admirable.

Pie wagon sucks, and no to massclaim.

So, when tomorrow comes around and both of them are alive and we get another innocent we get to do this again - with another cult more likely than not.

I'm totally stoked.

The cult's probably getting a recruit tonight regardless of who we lynch. I can assure you that we can find enough votes to lynch RECK tomorrow.

At this point, I can't decide whether to lynch CMAR or RECK. Up until CMAR's recent posts, I was almost definitely leaning towards RECK, but CMAR's not doing so hot right now under pressure. Farside's taking action on MrSuave so there's no need to do anything there, and I anticipate that bv may follow a similar route. pie may be a little eager, but he's likely correct in that there's likely not going to be enough support for a counterwagon unless people really think CMAR is town. Between CMAR and RECk, I can say that I'd be happy whichever way.

[iLord]

I believe I have done relatively well since I haven't looked up Starbuck's IP address and murdered him for stupidity. I seriously have defended myself against everything I have seen. I am relatively active, I have made cases against people, I have defended everything against me, and I have done nothing relatively scummy, unless not being sure of what happened with the whole xReckx-Evilsnail thing is considered scummy. I have no idea what else to do. Heck, I've even breadcrumbed the biggest reason I shouldn't be lynched, yet no one caught it.

None of this is remotely relevant, except for maybe the breacrumbing part, which I urge to you to spit out.

My point is that you came up with a conclusion, and then drew arguments together to try and support it, and not vice versa, not that you're lurking or not contributing.

@iLord: you were voting for tate yourself on D1, which means you think the arguments on him were valid. Do you think they stopped being valid? Do you think pie dropped any towntells which help compensate for tate's behaviour?

I've explained this a few times now - In essence, I was voting tate because he needed to be lynched, not necessarily because the behavior he was exhibiting (refusing to answer questions for fear of giving incriminating answers) was exclusive to scum. We simply can't just give a bye to anyone not answering anything they don't feel like answering, because then everyone who wanted to could emulate him without repercussions and then we'd get no where.

pie replacing in removed concerns of tate refusing to answer questions and getting away with it. Arguably, as per my discussion with SlySly, tate's personality would make likely that he could've behaved the way he did regardless of his alignment (Still haven't gotten around to reading BB, where SlySly indicated that there was a scum with a personality very similar to tate's who did something similar).

Look... he's a zombielord for crying out loud. There seems to be speculation that there is more than once zombielord out there... but we really don't know what we're dealing with and who has the power to recruit and whatnot. In a cult game, where the fuckers multiply, we need to lynch scum ASAP.

As much as I wouldn't mind lynching RECK today, this worry is probably unfounded. It's true that we don't know the specifics of the cult mechanic, but I daresay that they have some way of recruiting still if their Cult Leader is lynched Day 1.

[iLord]

I was referring to Starbuck with the lurker part. I still don't understand that part. I first made arguments to why I thought xReckx is town because his investigations made sense. Then I made an argument about why I thought the cult had not recruited, but then I realized I hadn't thought of the possibility of an SK, so I included that. At the moment, I am slowly realizing that xReckx may have been scum who realized that he needed a big claim to save his ass and realized that bv310 and ODDin made sense as fake investigations. I still think that, especially with post restrictions, MrSuave would be the better lynch. He is a liability to the town and no one seems to actually be scumhunting per say.

You thought RECK was town just because the targets he stated made sense? How is that difficult at all for the scum to pick two targets they've been scummy of? And you didn't even consider why scumES would do what he did, or whether the cult recruited anyone? Really?

You "realized" the possibility of an SK is misleading - when prompted on how ES could be doing what he did if he wasn't a recruit, you came up with two ways the cult could've successfully recruited, despite you stating before (Apart from its implications in the RECK argument) that it's unlikely for the cult to have recruited. You're gathering only evidence/arguments to fit your stated mindset and not drawing conclusions

from

the evidence/arguments.

[iLord]

I agree that RECK is basically guaranteed scum.

But Reck claimed who he targeted BEFORE ES came out with his target. You don't think ES could have been waiting so that he could purposely contradict Reck?

That's ridiculous. ScumES could've easily pulled that he saw RECK target Yos2 right off the bat - there's no need to wait for RECK in order to contradict him.

But in a normal game, when somebody claims info that another player is scum... what do you do?

Do you just say "we don't know who is lying so let's lynch somebody else"??

I always lynch the person that there is a guilty on.

Have no fear - if we're not lynching RECK today, we're definitely doing it tomorrow. Basically what people are saying is that we lose nothing from waiting a day, but if RECK does happen to be actually the cop, then we get an extra investigation.

No. I think it's ridiculous. I'm not "flailing" as I am positive I am right. I provided and pushed on McGriddle, I have started discussion with the entire xReckx-ES ordeal, and I have provided my honest opinion on the fact that either MrSuave, Pie, and now Spyrex should be lynched (Diamond was just as useless before him) before xReckx, ES, or me.

What are you positive that you are right about?

"Flailing" is not an accurate term here. More appropriate would be "tightening up" under pressure.

[iLord]

Yeah, let's give him a chance to recruit tonight.

[/le sigh]

I guarantee you that cult has some way of recruiting if the Cult Leader gets lynched Day 1. Do you not agree? It feels a little counter-intuitive to let scumRECK live, but there's really very little loss and a whole investigation to gain if we're wrong about RECK for some reason.

iLord, that's ridiculous. If you think that Reck is scum, but you are unsure of me just because I am "tightening up" you should vote scum.

See above for the argument for why RECK should not be lynched today. Consider the difference between lynching you today and RECK tomorrow, and vice versa.

Also, you tightening up is not a good tell under pressure - I mean it in the same sense as others use flailing, just that the image of a fish flailing around on land does not correlate very well with the manner with your are negatively coping with pressure.

[iLord]

Starbuck, arguing that he's active lurking is a little weak - what's the difference between his behavior and yours?

[iLord]

@iLord - Read him in iso. Read the fluff and spam and try to tell me that's not active lurking.

And for the record, it's part of my reasoning, but it's not 100% of my reasoning.

I scanned over him in ISO. I don't see how he's contributing any less than anyone else - take Wolf, for example, who's posted way less often and way more fluff.

Regardless, even if he does tend to post a lot of meaningless posts, that's still not behavior exclusive to scum. Certain players (Ani, who believe it or not is actually in this game, comes to mind) naturally post like that town and scum, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that CMAR falls under this category.

But srsly, I had entirely forgotten that ani was in this game. What happened to him?

[iLord]

And how about showing us where you dropped that breadcrumb? That is one question that I am referring to you that you DEFINITELY deflected.

This needs to be answered.

[iLord]

I brought it up because I expected someone to find it.
Three people are voting me because they think I'm the only alternative to an xReckx lynch. If you/iLord shifted there, I don't think they'd have a problem shifting there.

I'm not wasting a lynch on MrSuave. The town shouldn't have to waste lynches on inactive players - it's the mod's duty to deal with them. I have a feeling that we won't have to worry much more about MrSuave one way or another, especially since farside is not an excessively passive mod.

[iLord]

Looking in ISO, ani has been slightly more active than I had thought. I dunno why I had the impression that he hadn't posted at all since forever.

[iLord]

Can we just replace both?? They are both just trying to avoid being replaced, and active lurking.

Also, I'm back now.

That'd be great, but we can hardly expect farside to find anymore replacements - we've already had eight.

[iLord]

Can you just stop joining games if you aren't going to participate? That would be awesome.

At the risk of Starbuck jumping on me for being mean, this. Your last post was most unsatisfactory, in terms of content.

I don't know if it's just me, but this post completely hit me the wrong way. What town motive is there behind this post? I don't see any. This makes me think of a clear xReckx-Pie scum team. Unvote; Vote: Pie I will vote xReckx if nothing happens.

I don't know if it's just me, but this post completely hit me the wrong way. What town motive is there behind this post? I don't see any. This makes me think of a clear xReckx-Pie scum team. Unvote; Vote: Pie I will vote xReckx if nothing happens.

This attack's incredibly weak - in fact, it seems like you just picked a random post and decided to deem it scummy. What do you think his scum motive there is?

[iLord]

I'm getting cold feet. CMAR needs to claim outright as soon as possible.

Unvote, Vote: RECK

[iLord]

Also, iLord: what?

I'm not sure - that's why CMAR needs to claim.

[iLord]

I'm sorry... CMAR won't claim, so that means you should get off his wagon and vote the un-cc'd cop? WHAT IN THE FUCK?

You're still overdoing it. But more reasonably, CMAR needs to claim else I will be perfectly happy with lynching him.

It is widely known that the preferred food choice for scum is a Buffalo Chicken Sandwich, followed closely by a Turkey Sandwich.

I don't really care for either - What about Normal Chicken Sandwiches? Are those scummy as well?

[iLord]

Any demonstration of hunger in this particular game is scummy and should warrant a vote.

Uh-oh.

[iLord]

I don't see how CMAR's claim supports RECK's.

I believe CMAR, though. He'll probably die tonight - a recruit protecting doc's way too powerful for the cult to have around - Right guys?

[iLord]

Everyone not voting RECK does realize that we're lynching him tomorrow if we don't lynch him today, right?

pie's probably not scum. CMAR's probably not scum. I think the course of action here is clear.

One of the lurker swing voters is probably scum if RECk flips scum.

I still don't see how CMAR's claim supports RECK's - not only did he claim afterwards, infected is a pretty common term for zombies and I'm sure farside's suggested that the zombies infect people somewhere in the flavor scenes.

[iLord]

iLord, I have no plans of lynching Reck tomorrow.

Fortunately, we don't need your vote to lynch.

A) Cop - Doc combo
B) CMAR "stops infections" Reck gets "Infected/Not Infected"

A) I don't see how this is a reason at all.
B) See what I said above - it's not exactly a stretch of the imagination to use the term "infected" and CMAR claimed after so she could easily be copying townRECK.

[iLord]

@iLord:

They can have similarities without being scum.

They can also have similarities without being true. I don't think CMAR's is false.

You do know that if someone quickhammers, we are lynching both you AND them?

lulz

Also, Npt lynching the PR > lynching unclaimed / VT, because you get more results.

What if *gasp* the power role is lying?

You are incompetent.

I know animorpherv to be competent from past experience, which says to me that his "quicklynching" comment is likely scummy. How the hell would a Reck vote constitute a quicklynch? He's been on the edge of death all day.

Funny, I had the opposite impression. I believe SlySly is capable of being rational, whereas I've never seen ani act so.

Only way for that to happen is for Oddin to vote pie and someone else from recks wagon to vote pie, and i don't see that scenario playing out.

You, sir, need to be voting RECK.

[iLord]

When CMAR logs in, sees what I pointed out about his claim, his vote will move from Reck to you, making it 8-7 in favor of lynching you. You are going to be lynched today unless one of your scumbuddies is Oddin and he quick hammers Reck before CMAR gets to login and see what is happening. You can question my competency from the grave.

I don't think that works - if he's scum, he can't question your competency and if he's town, he will question your competency from the grave .

[iLord]

I'm going to look for a replacement to make things easier on bv

Can we get a deadline extension till his replacement, due to the critical value of that slot's vote?

NO!

He voted today with that post. There are 15 people posting. ECT, ECT, ECT.

[iLord]

I can't believe pie's getting lynched.

CMAR botched up his claim/last post, but is still probably town because RECK is probably scum.

SlySly's unvote is not enough to save pie, I don't think.

Sorry, I am sick of hearing about it. He is obviously able to post.

lol, you obviously have never tried to post from a crappy phone. How long do you think it took him to type his last post?

[iLord]

@e_k: Actually, I believe him. For a number of reasons that it will enumerate later.

But for now, you are correct that RECK needs to be lynched.

[iLord]

So, unvote: vote pie
As I've already said before, it's mostly for tate's actions D1.

ODDin, don't do this to me.

If we lose pie, we might actually not be able to get RECK lynched tomorrow.

[iLord]

Oh wow, this sucks. I am completely against lynching CMAR tomorrow, but at this point, it looks like we're don't even have enough RECK voters for tomorrow.

[iLord]

I won't vote to lynch Reck tomorrow. CMAR is getting my vote then unless a miracle happens here today.

Ironically, we apparently need your vote now. Would it help if I told you that I'm positive RECk is scum and CMAR is town?

[iLord]

Hey ODDin, remember that time iLord just claimed role-based info on Reck being scum? Yeah, that was funny.

I've claimed nothing of the such.

[iLord]

If CMAR's going to be lynched tomorrow, I'd rather have him lynched today, then RECK tomorrow and pie doesn't have to die.

Cause right now, it looks like the worse case scenario is most likely - townpie lynched today, townCMAR lynched tomorrow, and then townevilsnail lynch the day after that cause we don't have enough RECK voters. Let's not screw up this badly.

[iLord]

Come on, ODDin. Vote RECK right now - we stand a lot more to lose from not lynching him today because we won't be able to lynch him tomorrow. You might have to sort of trust me on this. Or listen to pie and E_K.

[iLord]

No, ODDin, wrong person . I think pie still gets lynched at deadline if you vote CMAR.

[iLord]

I'll vote Reck if iLord will quit blowing hot air.

How about you trust me on this one now and have the cult puzzle this one out themselves at night? I'd appreciate it, but given your track record with agreeing with me, I can't expect much.

[iLord]

No.

Especially not after this bullshit evilsnail pulled lately.

Evil's probably town. Can you vote RECK now?

[iLord]

Did I try to pull any info out of him or did he suggest that he could provide it?

I suggested I could provide it.

[iLord]

(My last post was me missing the fact that there was a new page.)

Also, I'm with SlySly. I have no real reason to trust you, iLord.

You actually have a very good reason to trust me. You still believe RECK is scum at this point, or have you moved to evilsnail as scum?

[iLord]

Am I helping?

Unless you can pull some extra votes out of your ass, I don't see much you can do. SlySly definitely won't listen to me, but I'm thinking we could definitely sway ODDin.