ZOMBIES! - Zombies take over for the win!!!

[SpyreX]

I'm currently reading this to catchup. After looking back at the last couple pages I have to ask - am I wasting my time?

[SpyreX]

I'm ACTUALLY going to reread this. I started and am finding little nuggets already so I'll have some kinda powerbomb catchup post in the future times.

So, don't recap I dont want to cloud this read.

[SpyreX]

Its totally what I meant though and his ability to parse that isn't really putting words in my mouth. I glanced back at the last couple of pages and went "welp, if its all like this then not reading it."

I'm making PROGRESS but lord the slog.

[SpyreX]

I'm just getting there.

I'm not amused.

[SpyreX]

Ok, caught up.

General Notes:

I would have totally been all over both Manho and McG. Thats a rarity for two town lynches to go through that I would have been A++ ok with. Manho only showed a little bit of eye raising towards the end that would have made me question it. But, no sad there.

How in the blue heavens has wolf not got some more heat? If not for Reck-Snail 2010 I'd be pushing that real, real hard. For a lot of reasons. In fact, I still may push that way but I'll get to the why I'm for dealing with this Reck situation NOW versus waiting in a bit.

iLord's prescience confuses me. A lot. I'm really, REALLY not sure what the hell to make of that whole scenario. It double confused me when the next day he downplayed it but.

BV needs to take a bullet real hard. Or a rope.

The mass exodus to tate at 835-839 can't be all town. It just makes the mind blow - DOUBLY so when so many vanished when pie jumped in before he said anything. (Oddin, Animo, iLord, CMAR, BV)

The GOOD STUFF

This is my favorite part!

Pie, Elvis, ABR - Town* for sho'
ODDin, Anim - Town* if BV is scum. Otherwise it gets a little itchy.

*Town is an issue because we have a cult in this game. Which leads me to:

Current Events

Note: I haven't looked at the signup thread. I haven't really read in-depth the op. If I'm missing something integral let me know sooner versus later.

While, normally, I totally dig ABR's stance about this there's a big issue: we are dealing with a cult. Which, from the looks of things we'd have to strike off at the head.

That said: There are Zombie Lords. Plural.

For balance sake I have to operate under two. (If there is three then there can't be any other anti-town factions of not).

So, there are two scenarios:

1.) There are two Zombie Lords as a unified group.
2.) There are two separate Zombie Lords doing stuff.

#1 is awesome and what I'm hoping for.
#2 means that we're looking at a spread of recruits.

However, before I digress too far:

If evilsnail is telling the truth about N1 then Reck isn't just a zombie, but has to be a zombie lord.

While I absolutely don't like the way the claim went out and the weirdness of snipin' time this is enough to roll on. If there are two groups that eliminates one entirely and if just a singular entity then that REALLY increases the chances for victory.

That alone is enough for me to slap on the reck vote. Risk/Reward

Vote: Reck

[SpyreX]

So, SpyreX, you think it is a good idea for us to out our vig(s) and have them NKd by the cult?

Versus more recruits? Every time. No questions.

[SpyreX]

Every PR that dies is one less recruit.

So, yea, its versus recruits.

[SpyreX]

Town points? He was far more vocal than most of the hand-wringing I'm used to from scum avoiding the mislynches.

Or ???.

[SpyreX]

HURF

So, SpyreX, you think it is a good idea for us to out our vig(s) and have them NKd by the cult?

I see no active reason right now to out our very, very hypothetical vigs.

However, if it were to happen I'd be fine with it because killing the vig means not getting a recruit so if you really need an answer to this question then yes. By all means.

[SpyreX]

I assume you're talking about the "killed" part?

Welp, our vigs are either insane or too timid to fire. Hence the hypothetical part.

[SpyreX]

I'm not sure what you're getting at that would lead to more Zombie Lords. A cult with 3 Zombie Lords would be a HUGE mess.

----

If, with what was going on, either of those shots were vig shots I'd be flabbergasted. Yos especially would be hat-eating territory.

But, yes, if there is a vig who took those shots claim now. Or, if that doesn't strike your fancy at minimum shoot snail (or if you are tech shoot wolf but).

I dig looking for other angles but Razor is those are cult-deaths.

And I think crippling the heart of the cult or killing one of the snakes entirely is a pretty solid reason to push this through versus waiting.

And if we're gonna wait (which would be a bad idea IMO) I'm pushing for wolf death.

[SpyreX]

Not even a little?

I'm actively and totally confused now at how you got that.

[SpyreX]

IF a vig took those shots then the chances of snail being full of it go way up. So, in that situation said vig would be at minimum keeping a mislynch and could shoot a recruit.

So, I understand PIE's sentiment.

However, a vig hasn't done that so I think we're not going to see hit happen and this is all hypothetical.

So, I think we're looking at Razor.

---

Personally, for balance reasons (I'm REALLY not sure what one would do with the recruits if two sets of cult) I'm assuming one cult with 2 ZL's starting out. Still swingy but WAY more balanced than 2 separate ones depending.

[SpyreX]

And with that bed. Also, I'm not gonna be around until late tomorrow so lets not do anything spastic in the meantime.

[SpyreX]

Ohh, wolf-gate:

There's your classic "huh" statements such as:

Actually now that I think about it, why do you believe MrSuave is the best wagon?

As far as I can find the only thing(s) you have against him are his posts and inactivity

. As it stands you have already apologized for being inactive yourself.

There's the fact that even though we've hit 100 posts from him for the most part its one liners and really nothing awesome.

But, what gets me is two parts:

Part 1:

In fact unless i am wrong, you better pray that is not a mod kill offense.

I do not know is linking an on going game counts as that or not, i really hope it doesn't because I don't like seeing players mod killed, but if it is against that rule maybe you can just get a warning.

Also it isn't that iLord wanted just a game that is not a cult game, he wanted a 12 player game that had only 2 scum in it since that is what everyone is talking about with you. I really don't want to say anything else on the matter though because it is going to be up to Farside if it is a violation or not.

Important: Modkill discussion was at 354. This happened before Reck posted.

Let's once again drop the mod kill discussion only because if it was killable, farside would have done so already. Lets move on.

^^ this. tate i believe the rule you should play to win applies to you, and you sir are not playing to win.

unvote, vote tate

Elvis didn't personally attack anyone, if anything he was attacking himself. For someone who's case on another person is that he was pushing for modkills you sure are quick to try and get someone else modkilled.

So, not once, but twice do we see backhanded modkill talk. And, of course telling others not to talk about what he was

the first one to bring up

. And then the modkill / modkill business.

The first quote made me go "WHAT" and the modkill business cemented it. There's other little things that don't add up to as much as I'd like so I'm not gonna play pad the case but.

[SpyreX]

Cognitive dissonance regarding modkills that fluctuates directly to serve an end goal?

Ohh yea.

[SpyreX]

A reason why I don't think we have a vig:

bv is still alive.

I'm holding that as very compelling evidence.

[SpyreX]

Then he'd have some serious explaining to do why in the hell he shot Yos, especially.

But, not too worried about that.

[SpyreX]

God I double failed.

But, seriously - thats one of those weights where his being alive makes me think there is a single zombie group with 2 zombie lords because pretty sure we dont have a vig.

[SpyreX]

I tend to agree ABR - cult setup "hey do nothing" with conflicting results definitely helps one side more than the other. That when joined with the fact ES telling the truth is a huge boon. Well

[SpyreX]

I highly disagree with a xReckx lynch as I tend to actually believe him more. But I also believe we should target someone else with our lynch today rather than evilsnail, xReckx, ODDin, or bv310.

Why such an elaborate way of saying "I believe reck and ES is a recruit"

[SpyreX]

One zombie lord would be about as swingy as you could possibly get. I'd assume two.

[SpyreX]

I'm absolutely baffled and I'm PRETTY sure this makes me want to lynch Reck all the more. "Ohh snap cop claim" is way to shady in a cult game for this business and I am not amused.

If Reck is scum, I'd totally put starbuck down in the ropin' category. Of course, I'm really not sure what to make of wolf's last post - confirmation bias is making me salivate at it like wolf.

But, still. Between Reck and ES we have a scum. If ES is scum he's a recruit. If Reck is scum he's a Lord. Opting to NOT TAKE ACTION on this is flabbergasting.

[SpyreX]

Yes, I would like all the nonvoters to commit.

If today ends in a no lynch I will lose my mind.

[SpyreX]

In the best of times throwing a nolynch out isn't going to make me happy. When we need to gain ground against a growing threat I'd rather gamble.

[SpyreX]

So, when tomorrow comes around and both of them are alive and we get another innocent we get to do this again - with another cult more likely than not.

I'm totally stoked.

[SpyreX]

wolf playing up another avenue? GET OUT OF TOWN.

[SpyreX]

Really?

Really?

No. I have never, ever made any of my stances on the current situation made clear even in the tiniest amount.

[SpyreX]

I'm pretty sure Pie needs to register Sandwiches_are_good.

No. I think it's ridiculous. I'm not "flailing" as I am positive I am right. I provided and pushed on McGriddle, I have started discussion with the entire xReckx-ES ordeal, and I have provided my honest opinion on the fact that either MrSuave, Pie, and now Spyrex should be lynched (Diamond was just as useless before him) before xReckx, ES, or me.

Dare I ask what added me to this illustrious band?

I like how I'm useless though. Just as useless as my predecessor. (Super HI-C tip: this is the first time you've ever mentioned me)

If it wasn't for Reck being a Zombie Lord if he is scum this is where I'd go. That possibility is enough for me to push this lynch despite how much I want to cast SUMMON HANGIN' ROPE on CMAR.

[SpyreX]

Cracking down a ZL early versus late game is always, always a better idea.

Especially considering the cult aspect giving even MORE excuses to not lynch them. When you run into situations where VTs get recruited and then have reasons to commit suicide to protect said roles.... well.

This lynch is a bad lynch and I am not happy with it.

[SpyreX]

@SpyreX: You nicely dodged that question. I understand that you don't want the scum to recruit townies. My question was "why does lynching Reck tomorrow make it more likely that townies get recruited?"

I wasn't trying to dodge anything. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough though:

I think Reck is a ZL. Crippling the ZL's is universally better early because it eliminates factors later and forces a scramble by the entire faction to protect a single leader versus having a scapegoat to sacrifice if necessary.

Lynching Reck, ultimately, doesn't alter the towny getting recruited tonight. However, Reck-ZL tomorrow assuming recruit has another body to act as a shield and cause problems. And....

Of course, the simple fact that the chances of ES OR Reck being killed are absolutely minimal so we will be doing this dance again tomorrow does not thrill me. So, this will be dealt with then.

Which, of course, is a day NOT going for the OTHER ZL which is another potential recruit tomorrow night.

[SpyreX]

"Ohh lord, we must protect the PR's at all costs. Even if we think they are scummy. Quick, young bucks, shift thine wagon!"
*PR Claim*
"Foreasmuch as we didn't want to slay dost PR before, we must again!"
*PR Claim*
"Wow. There sure is a lot of PR's. Better keep on truckin!"
(What do you think would be here)

FFFF

[SpyreX]

We have a cult. I'm still seeing no evidence to point to a scum at the mo'.

This means that there is a Zombie Lord Busdriver OR Snail is telling the truth.

OR Town did this and didn't fess up which, welp.

[SpyreX]

Hey THIS:

We have a cult. I'm still seeing no evidence to point to a scum at the mo'.

This means that there is a Zombie Lord Busdriver OR Snail is telling the truth.

OR Town did this and didn't fess up which, welp.

Am I missing something? I expect some words.

[SpyreX]

WELP, if "Zombie Lord Busdriver" is the route we're going I'm outtie 5000 until things happen.

[SpyreX]

Its like being in the back seat of the race car going 100 towards the clilff and watching the bottle of JD in the drivers hands just keep going down and down and down his gullet and going "hay, maybe we should turn away" and they just giggle and hit the accelerator.

[SpyreX]

Wolf and BV come out to support this.

With the best of rationales.

I wouldn't worry about a replacement since LA till the 21st is just par for the course.

[SpyreX]

Either of those cases bother me.

I'm leaning HARD on it being the former versus the latter. Especially with who is jumping.

[SpyreX]

Is it all tied up now?

Have we come that far?

[SpyreX]

This. Ends. Now.

One way or another.

[SpyreX]

If you are lying (which I doubt) I salute you pie.

You will be remembered.

This is a terrible lynch and has been all along.

[SpyreX]

BUUTTT OUR POWERROLES

[SpyreX]

Its been a long day and watching this go down like this makes my teeth itch. You were the bastion of sanity I had in this game. (ABR was too, but jumping on your wagon.. blah)

[SpyreX]

Vote: Reck

Wow, what a surprise

[SpyreX]

God I didn't even think about that ODDin. Woosh.

Woosh this game.

And all the shenanigans going on to take a shot at Sly. Le sigh.

[SpyreX]

ES, if lying, would either be prescient or something funny is going on between ES and Starbuck.

Again, everything just like yesterday points to Reck being scum.

[SpyreX]

ES is either balls to the wall lucky (twice now he's had results on PR's and both, from his point of view, pointed to scum) or, in fact, does what his role does.

If that is the case, Reck targeted KMD. At a point where there would be no recruits.

Thus, Reck is scum.

[SpyreX]

And if Reck isn't scum and Starbuck DOESNT shoot ES we get two birds in a row.

[SpyreX]

Hold.

Sly, you have proof ES is lying?

Unvote, Vote: ES

This knot needs to be fixed. Today. There's enough information that I'm fine with this.

Additionally if this FLIP IS TOWN I am going to be super mega pissed if there isn't a vig-shot body tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

That's all cute and stuff Grim if this didn't become a focal point OVER AND OVER.

It needs to go. I still, STILL, think its Reck but since we've got a flat out "this is a lie" business whatever.

[SpyreX]

Not to mention the simple fact that if ES is telling the truth its a WAY more valuable role but whatever this game makes me unbelievably angry after yesterday.

[SpyreX]

God I need the list of interactions in one simple spot.

And Percy lets not play slappywigs and just get it out here - NO ONE should have had any reason to target CMAR.

Even less so than the "vig" NOT SHOOTING one of ES or Reck.

[SpyreX]

:O

I don't know if I would have said ODDin BUT

Unvote, Vote: ABR

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay look at that evil was telling the truth I am shocked and awed.

Vote: Reck

[SpyreX]

Yea just like ES's that OMG SKUM but wait alas.

Reck goes. Please.
Starbuck can as well for the tech shots but whatever.

[SpyreX]

U
NO U

Reck still isn't dead. Not stoked.

[SpyreX]

This needed to be resolved days ago. Hammer.

[SpyreX]

Yet if a ZL like I've been saying all along somehow you'll be smellin like roses?

Woohoo.

Of course, if Reck is a ZL and the game DOES continue, no way is Sly a ZL.

[SpyreX]

With one dead they can't afford to be as chummy. They'd have to find SOMETHING to distance from each other at least a bit.

[SpyreX]

Dont think I've forgot about you mr wolfy either. If we had opted to do well, anything, the day that ended in a pie lynch you'd have your moment in the spotlight.

But, now we wait for a flip.

[SpyreX]

Eh, SlySly's not a conventional player - it wouldn't be wise to assume that he can't be scum with RECK. Plus, it'd look awfully awkward if SlySly stopped attacking RECk after ABR died.

Ohh I'm banking on recruit.

Which, realistically, we can't be hunting for at this point with some of the amazing things that have happened.

[SpyreX]

If the recruits are all 4 nights (and not the two nights Starbuck has claimed the kills) then we're boned yes.

[SpyreX]

Mother of God.

We need to hit the THIRD DAMN ZL today - if its a mislynch and there is a recruit thats game.

Percy is town or balls to the wall scum. IF scum, is ZL (no way would a recruit bus). I'm going with town.

Starbuck is town. If it was some kind zombies killin' and recruiting that would have been game.

Grimmy probably isn't the final ZL. Definitely a chance, but.

Sly is a recruit.
iLord is probably a recruit now.
e_k is probably a recruit.

I'm awesome and town.

So, realistically:

Wolframnhart
ODDin
animorpherv1
MrSuave

I need to parse all the way through here. Unless I'm missing something key.

[SpyreX]

Pro-tip: If Suave isn't the ZL and gets modkilled we damn well have to hit right today.

Of the four I like ODDin the most. Initial read on wolf still stands but ani has done flat -nothing- and I need to go play hunt down the interactions.

[SpyreX]

HAHAHA

It's ani - and I'm positive Elvis is a Recruit.

Look at his iso. Check the ratio of ABR / Reck references compared to everyone else (especially Reck). And the tone.

If I have to I'll go lay it all out but holy hell the meganamedrops.

Unvote, Vote: Animo

[SpyreX]

Hahaha and preview sniped by another recruit.

Booomshakala

[SpyreX]

All of it.

Now, I'll admit I haven't even given the other ones a proper iso look and reread yet but holy hell.

[SpyreX]

....

Maybe I'm wrong about you. Maybe.

We'll see when the cards lay out.

[SpyreX]

If Starbuck was a ZL (and no one is claiming those kills) the game would be done. So I'm fairly confident in her being town.

If iLord is a ZL (a recruit wouldn't -surprise-) I'd eat a hat. His play just doesn't make sense that way.

[SpyreX]

I just look at that balanced against a cult town NEEDS a vig.
No one else claimed those kills.

[SpyreX]

I'm rollin the hard six on Starbuck NOT being a ZL. Its going to take a lot to get me moving in that direction.

Especially with wolfs little "I am a recruit and I don't like the push on ani" vote.

[SpyreX]

You go read ani's iso or is this blind ani-love?

Further your vote means you think I'm a Lord, right?

[SpyreX]

The love that started from the very, very beginning?

[SpyreX]

I like playing with people too. That doesn't change the fact that he's been absolutely buddy-buddy with both of them all gay.

[SpyreX]

game.

WOOO

[SpyreX]

Really?

Fine.

Lets go way back:

Look at the difference between ISO 2 and 3 and the lowball to ABR in 5.
Reck love begins in ISO 6.
Then ISO 10
And ISO 12
and the throwout ISO's 17,18,19
Then back to the Reck love in 24
And 26
And the lovely bit of dancing in 36.
And 41.
And then the derail on ABR's "let them all live" by answering a question (hint: iLord most definitely was not recruited at this point) in 49.
And now ABR love in 50.
And then the ES vote in 54.
And how awesome 61 is now.
And look at 66 (and check his voting history regarding them).
And ANOTHER lowball at ABR in 74
And then the only one ZL (which gets swung around later).
And then 79 my goodness
And 81
And 82
And 83
And 85
And 86
And 87 (PS - what do Zombie Lords need to do?)
And 88
And 91 on more than one level
And 92 (hint: she's a recruit)
----

The two players most talked about by Anim: ABR and Reck.
The two players that never, ever, EVER saw a vote from Ani (even though he said ABR's attack made Reck more town): ABR and Reck.
The two players that are scum? ABR and Reck.

Seriously.

[SpyreX]

Being wrong isn't a crime.

Except when it is.

[SpyreX]

The only problem with massclaiming this game (and I've thought about it) is that its a roadmap for who to target for recruiting.

I need to parse the numbers but I think (since there is 11 and not 10 alive WOO) there's a chance we get another day IF they kill and not recruit tonight assuming KMD and CMAR were scum kills.

[SpyreX]

Wooosh.

Its totally Ani (but you knew that Elvis what with being a recruit and all)

[SpyreX]

Ok, considering we had no one else jump out at those kills and its day 6 explain to me how starbuck being a recruit, much less a zombie lord, makes sense.

And ohh snapp META BEEMS.

(I like how ani can go "I wouldn't be friendly with my partners" and call me out when I actively and vocally was trying to get reck lynched AND didn't bat an eye at ABR either)

Well played. Dingle dangle.

[SpyreX]

If I am that tight with ABR/Reck, it put the scum gruop in more danger than the ABR/Reck busing each other thing, and that IS NOT a good move for scum to do that.

That sure reads like buddying is bad, I was buddying, hence I'm not scum.

[SpyreX]

With 11 alive and no recruits flipped worst case would be game over (1 ZL, 5 recruits).

As that hasn't happened, the number is less than 5. Assuming starbuck took the kills she said (which we have to because of above) the nights of her kills AND last night are converts.

So, 1 ZL, 3 recruits. We mislynch today (a total mislynch) tomorrow there's either 10 alive with 5 scum OR if there's a modkill 9 alive 5 scum game.

So, its not "lylo" in the strictest sense but:
* not hitting the ZL and them recruiting is a loss.
* hitting a recruit maintains the quoish.

[SpyreX]

Yos and Evilsnail?

[SpyreX]

And, because the only scenario that makes sense for this (I'm pretty sure ALL others are already game over) we're looking at a linked set of Zombie Lords.

Which points RIGHT at ani.

[SpyreX]

@Spy:

I'm talking about Reck AND ABR, as that's how Starbuck was "cleared". You inherently CAN'T. So, you use this logic for clearing Starbuck, but refuse to use it for me? Something's wrong with this.

-----

Starbuck was cleared for this simple line of thought that has NOTHING to do with them:

1.) Against a cult, I adamantly refuse to believe that there isn't a vigilante.
2.) Starbuck has claimed to be said vigilante.
3.) No one has countered said claim.

[SpyreX]

I sure didn't.

And if the argument is "Hay, against a cult with at LEAST 3 Zombie Lords you have only the lynch to help you" as being balanced welll.

And if the actual vig opted to keep his mouth shut until this point well.

[SpyreX]

Those "ands" are for two different arguments:

1.) If you are saying we have only the lynch mechanic to deal with a cult with multiple heads well, godspeed.

2.) If you are saying the actual vig opted to just keep his mouth shut AND apparently not shoot well, godspeed.

So, really, what I'm saying is that you need to dangle zombie guy

[SpyreX]

And one and two are not related but separate methods of looking at this that both lend to eyerolling.

[SpyreX]

I also assumed 2 zl's - 3 alters that process a skosh

[SpyreX]

Yea. It is:

But, seriously - thats one of those weights where his being alive makes me think there is a single zombie group with 2 zombie lords because pretty sure we dont have a vig.

With two and the way things were going it sure didn't make sense for there to be a vig.

With THREE, however, it sure as hell does.

[SpyreX]

The hell I'm trying to frame ani? Look at the interactions. Really look at them.

I still hold that having a way to eliminate a cult outside of the lynch is almost a necessity: hell, even now we're looking at a potential mylo with back-to-back power lynches.

[SpyreX]

I have been suspicious of iLord and EK most of this game too and they have both conveniently disappeared and seem content enough to let those of us still participating in this game to hash it out one way or the other.

EK is pretty obviously a recruit.

iLord I have no idea about.

The vig debate will be one settled after the game but this bevy of roles ultimately doesn't sway me without a method to kill zombies aside from the lynch to balance a 3-zl cult.

[SpyreX]

You've got to be kidding me:

I thoght that town all though there were 3 ZL?

IMO, 3 ZLs make no sense. It makes it much, much easier to win if their is 3 ZLs, and gives a more equal chance if there are 2.

And the fact Ani knew we were gunning

specifically for a ZL

at the beginning of today?

Come on now.

[SpyreX]

Those straws. Just out of reach. No matter how hard you grasp for them.

[SpyreX]

I'm going to need a lot more than what we've seen to even consider Starbuck. That's a bad news bears kinda thing.

I still think its ani and they pulled the ballsy scatter-wagon move.

[SpyreX]

(hint lets not say things like "I'm surprised I haven't been recruited yet" because if you actually WERENT a recruit that's a big ol "Hey recruiting me the vanilla is a good idea if we're wrong about this lynch)

(double hint ani is still the zombie lord)

[SpyreX]

Its ballsy but its not all that scary realistically - its a throwing a rock at the birds kinda thing and it DOES work wonders.

It doesn't change ani being scum thoguh.

[SpyreX]

A recruit loss is still salvageable - but not hammering when that turned the tide against the ZL in your theory?

Not dropping that hammer makes waay more sense (especially considering the Suave factor UNLESS Suave is a recruit as well which makes no sense) as town than scum of either type.

[SpyreX]

So, if Starbuck is a vig, I think we have 3 recruits right now.
If Starbuck is a ZL, I think we only have 1 recruit. (And it's a recruit from N5, so I'd bet on SpyreX or iLord)
And as I've said, if Starbuck is scum, I think she didn't really shoot you to begin with.

And if that is true than in both scenarios lynching starbuck makes no sense from a risk-reward standpoint.

[SpyreX]

@Sly:

So, if Starbuck is a vig, I think we have 3 recruits right now.
If Starbuck is a ZL, I think we only have 1 recruit. (And it's a recruit from N5, so I'd bet on SpyreX or iLord)
And as I've said, if Starbuck is scum, I think she didn't really shoot you to begin with.

Agree/disagree?

If agree, agree/disagree about my risk-reward.

If disagree to any of these why.

[SpyreX]

If that's the case I'd have a serious talk with the mod when this is over: rules like that need to be enforced uniformly.

THAT being the case under normal circumstances I'd be all for that lynch. With this being that too close to the gun I'd need a for reallies more than lurking case to push it.

I'm still looking at the group from before.

[SpyreX]

Starbuck. *gasp* Still town. Crazy I know.

With the site being awesome this weekend its been a pain but I've been trying to look at the votecounts and see if anything pops up - especially in early days / the pie lynch.

[SpyreX]

CMAR (1) ODDin
xRECKONERx (7) evilsnail, MrSuave , elvis_knits, spyrex, Grimmy, iLord, Pie_is_good
Pie (8) Albert B. Rampage, xRECKONERx, Starbuck, animorpherv1, Wolframnhart, bv310, CryMeARiver, SlySly

This I think is going to be the telling votecount. Chances all three ZL's would commit to saving one?

[SpyreX]

Starbuck is the ripest mislynch for game I've ever seen and today starting out the same way only strengthens that.

Additionally, I like how you commented on that and not the ACTUAL question I'd like some input on about where the third ZL would be on that swing - which is doubly awesome considering you were in the outfield during that bunt.

[SpyreX]

No matter how much you want to downplay that the claim and presence of a vig is a pretty important piece, yes.

Its around the horn-esque yes because I'd disagree with most everything done this game BUT even then claiming it all doesn't make sense as scum.

[SpyreX]

How does it not make sense? "I'm town-vig, excuse my killing of town PRs and don't worry about lynching me since I'm town and out of shots." Makes perfect sense to me.

It doesn't make sense because WHY would you do it?

Look at the response and continued pushes on it. Doubly so by saying they're out of shots making them no longer a n active help.

It, realistically, is just saying "welp, lynch me."

(blah, blah WIFOM blah blah).

I have provided a scenario that can explain Starbuck-scum claiming the vig.
As for balance: I think the town is doing decent at the moment (could've been better, but I wouldn't call the situation broken, unless there are two more ZLs or something). That, despite the fact that all our "vig" had done is kill PRs - that is, even if Starbuck is the vig, her actions as such didn't help the town, and I think even she would agree with that (regardless of whether the choices were logical or not.)
And it's not like we were incredibly lucky - we mislynched quite a lot, and our only two correct lynches were both a result of PR abilities.
So, I think it suggests this game can be perfectly well balanced without a vig.

Same logic that iLord presented on this page is still here. Starbuck, if town, is a loss. Starbuck, if ZL, is not a game ending scenario yet.

I need the rest of the game to chime in but watching you two STILL hammer on this makes me think you've played your hand a bit too much for this last mislynch.

I'm startin to lean real, real hard on you being ZL there chief.

[SpyreX]

Soooo, wait.

This is all arguing about Starbuck being a ZL (the only scum I'm interested in TM) but you've no intention of lynching her today at all?

So, in theory, if the game doesn't end with a mislynch today you've got tomorrow all setup and ready to go with this discussion for the third damn day in a row?

[SpyreX]

Vote: ODDin

Show me today where you say you're not planning to vote for Starbuck. The closest thing I see is the whole "huh, guess I miscounted welp back to talking about Starbuck".

I thought I was losing my mind for a second there.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, when did you start to want to be recruited?

If this starbuck lynch gets pushed through your damn right I want to be recruited.

[SpyreX]

...

Was there a prod? I know there was talk of a massprod but I sure didn't get one.

Because if the answer to that question is no, like I think it is, and watching the quiet compatriots come into the fray after a prompt by *gasp* ODDin well.

I also like the "whom to vote list" which really isn't ANYONE who he actually wants to vote today.

Amazing how that works.

[SpyreX]

The only one who you actually gave a solid opinion on in that list was me.

Those are your decent opinions?

[SpyreX]

I'd much prefer reasons why someone is a ZL that you'd actually want to lynch.

---

No, see, not being a recruit means I want to win the right way. Starbuck being lynched I think is a loss - so, if thats the route its going I'd like to be recruited so, again, I can win.

If the cult is recruiting "inconspicuous players" then who is the one leading the charge?

[SpyreX]

I do want to win any way possible. Not being a recruit now means I want to win the right way (with my current alignment).

HOWEVER, if this lynch were to go through I want to be recruited because, at that point, I think its a cult win.

Do you think that an inconspicuous ZL is recruiting other inconspicuous players or, if not, who would be leading this rationale for those recruits?

[SpyreX]

....

HAHAHAH he's right.

Yessir that starbuck sure done be a scums now huh?

[SpyreX]

Which faction do you think has a greater chance of winning? Town with you or Cult with you?

I'd like to hope I'm a net plus for my faction (and thus a net negative for the other).

Quite honestly, at this point I think you're the ZL. I'm not sure if you would consider yourself inconspicuous.

Ya, ya WIFOM but if I WAS the ZL we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

[SpyreX]

Wellllll considering you're asking about variables I don't know about its not a cut and dry answer.

As it sits a mislynch is a loss - which means that the cult regardless of me is in pretty good shape. If today is a recruit lynch then cult plus me would be good.

If I'm right about ODDin then town plus me (the current state) is a definite more likely to win. If not, then no.

Soooooo what I'm getting at is I'm not sure what you're getting at?

[SpyreX]

I'll admit after being wrong about ani I was kinda hoping I'd get recruited (because I saw this going down again just like this).

[SpyreX]

Because, at core, its dirty pool.

I play for my win condition. Everything pointed at ani being the last ZL - when he wasn't I went "well, maybe I'll get recruited and save this failure".

So, its only uncomfortable in the sense it makes me feel dirty.

NOT in the "lets engineer a mislynch and get recruited for it" kinda way.

[SpyreX]

Someday one of you chuckleheads will actually VOTE for me and then we can dance the dance.

What makes me a ZL over ODDin or iLord?

[SpyreX]

Not a peep from Sly about the Starbuck thing just a jumpvote awesomeeee.

I'm reading Suave's post and no matter how many times I read it its "meta" wooo nelly.

[SpyreX]

The hell do I have to hide?

(Still not dancing which is sweet).

[SpyreX]

Because watching at this juncture the "ohhh welll" business instead of manning up is more than a little itchy.

[SpyreX]

iLord and Spyrex want to get recruited and win as recruits. Oddin doesn't want to vote anyone.

SB is tunneling on someone who should have already been modkilled

and will 'supposedly' be at the end of this day (though, I know I'm no genius, but I doubt seriously will ever happen).

I am fine with lynching EK. She was acting unlike herself before there should have been a recruit.

--

vote count:
Elvis_knits (1) SlySly,

ODDin (2) SpyreX, Starbuck

[SpyreX]

... This page sure looks like a lot of odd slap and tickle coming from ODDin and sly there after ODDin makes a giant case and immediately buckles.

Again (is that 4 now?) I get someone rubbing their hands together like they want me lynched and STILL not even one vote.

This bespeaks something truly beautiful.

[SpyreX]

EK is about 90% sure a recruit.

I'm far more interested in winning the game than maintaining status quo.

[SpyreX]

Look at EK D1 and D2 versus the rest of the game. I'd eat a hat if she wasn't recruited after that point.

@Sly: As for ODDin?

Today speaks volumes. If you told me that there wasn't an intention for voting for starbuck for most of the day (that he just didn't pull the trigger on) I would have lynched you for lying.

Then, when that gets grounded to a halt he immediately puts together a "case" on you that, again, is grounded immediately. (After, and I can't stress this enough, his "reads" had me as probably scum and voting for you was left field).

So, what then? Nothing. Of course, except worry about you clearing townies.

the big kicker though? I don't see a stark difference in play like with EK which reeeks recruit.

[SpyreX]

iLord:

Can you give me a review of ODDin.

[SpyreX]

ODDin has acquiesced to lynching almost every likely ZL player, except for maybe SpyreX. Looking through ODDin in ISO, a ODDin recruit protecting SpyreX ZL seems possible.

I was hoping for a bit more depth than that.

Alas, not this game though.

So, lets try this another way: Why am I a ZL over being a recruit and/or town?

As for the other business - I don't care about "feelings" at this point on either side. Just stop. It isn't helping.

[SpyreX]

Again, still not even trying to say why I'd be a ZL versus a recruit in this "scum" grouping.

Humor me and go ahead and give the entirety of the POE that has led you to this conclusion. I'm really curious about ODDin, specficially.

[SpyreX]

Good lord I'm not trying to get you to "downgrade" me I'm trying to figure out what the hell you're playing at.

And if that's the list much like everything else I've seen this day its a huge WHY for any of the above.

See, EK is a recruit because there's been a marked difference in her play.

Much like I'm seeing in yours. Which is really starting to make sense since the vote came down finally after I voted for ODDin (who seems to have vanished "oddly" enough).

Like this slap and tickle you're playing with sly: I'm baffled at why you're having a hard time grasping what sly is saying.

Because, its white noise.

Sly - help me kill the snake at its head.

[SpyreX]

Head, not body.

Look at EK and now iLord in ISO. They've changed as play has progressed in a way that makes me REALLY doubt they're a ZL versus a recruit.

But, look at ODDin. There hasn't been that kind of change - instead, now that the others are gone he's tried twice now to push definite not-ZL lynches.

And, really, it took him being the only one with actual pressure for iLord to finally lay down that vote.

ODDin's the head, those two are recruits. The last one will come out when pressure is put on.

---

Now, if this creeps till deadline, which it better not YES we are better off hitting one of the recruits versus a ML but I'd rather not have that get to that point. If, IF, it does I'd be voting EK.

[SpyreX]

Sly HAS answered your question: the original statement was a simple statement of fact (I have done X) without any additional implications (X happened, therefore Y).

So, when you keep asking about the Y part and keep getting told Y doesn't exist and then just keep asking (versus at LEAST saying I think you are lying about the absence of Y for Z reasons) its just white noise.

And if at a fairly decent chance of lylo explaining reads: is bad because somehow between now and the lynch scum will manipulate said reasons (which is a neat trick considering that explanation of prior reasons != future reasons), the asking for explanations of ALL your reads != getting me to vote for myself and of course throwing your hands up because its hard to try well I dont know what to say.

Additionally: Unless you think some combination of Starbuck (haha), Sly and I are scum the fact this wagon is sitting at L-2 without a peep suuure says something awesome.

[SpyreX]

So I'm the ZL bussing my recruit? Really now?

ALL your reads. I mean you have EK who has a degree in recruitology down as Lurker???? ffs.

[SpyreX]

Again (although doesn't make sense arguing with a recruit hurrfff):

ODDin a.) pushed on Starbuck hard then said he never was planning to vote that way and continued to up until wolf flavor-swished which led to b.) building a "case" on Sly which made no sense because, in fact, sly was cleared that night and THEN the only other comment we've seen is trepidation at you clearing all those players.

And, I'll go back and check but this whole new me-ZL pushing on ODDin would make more sense if your whole "lets lynch SpyreX" routine hadn't started before any of this happened.

[SpyreX]

I don't see how any of this is indicative of scum. What would make scum motivation more likely than town?

Sigh. Ok:

1.) We are at or very near lylo.
2.) Thus, a mislynch clinces the game.
3.) He was puishing on not one but TWO players I'd put cash money on being town.

If #1 is true, #3 leads to #2.

The current flavor of my suspicion is that you're bussing ODDin to cut your losses.

The whole "lets lynch SpyreX" thing was POE, prior to you voting ODDin.

Yes, "lets lynch SpyreX" has been a mantra for a while - which I said. The issue is the WHY for lets lynch SpyreX kinda floats like a leaf in the wind.

This is doubly true when one considers the nice numbered list above and how at this point even as a ZL I'd damn well not be throwing a recruit under the bus if I could absolutely help it.

[SpyreX]

I assume that "town" is a typo there?

Incidentally, I believe that pushing form multiple player's lynches is more indicative of town. Recruits are reluctant to push for their ZL's lynch and are just as reluctant to push for every valid target except for their ZL's lynch. This is part of why I think that ODDin is town.

Not even a little. Pushing on SB and Sly, who I would bet money are still town.

He's now added wolf to the mix how interesting!

I've been accusing Starbuck because I thought she's scum. I have been thinking so since yesterday. I didn't vote initially to prevent a possible quicklynch by the hands of the mafia. However, after seeing iLord's calculations, it became clear to me that it's a bad idea to lynch her today, so even my intention to vote has disappeared. Yet I still thought she was scum. Then wolf cleared her in my eyes. I then reread sly, as part of rereading possible suspects, and thought he looked scummy. I forgot that percy found out he wasn't visiting anyone and thus likely not the ZL. After I was reminded that, I obviously retracted my vote.
Had I wanted to push for a lynch on people, I would've voted for Starbuck (like sly was, conveniently ignoring iLord and later myself saying that even if Starbuck is the ZL, it's not smart to lynch her today).

There are other people out there for whose lynch it'd be FAR easier for ZL-me to push.

Except for the whole fact that at this juncture an early vote would have tipped the hand even farther.

And, you're going to say there was an easier lynch than Starbuck before wolf flavor-saved the day? Really?

So, first he says "I'm pretty sure we don't have a vig, killing yos would be especially weird for a vig, and if reck is scum then Starbuck is likely scum". This later switches to "Starbuck is 100% town and we must have a vig".
You don't need Starbuck to be scum herself in order for this to be scummy: it just seems as if SpyreX has at some point made a decision to protect Starbuck, knowing her alignment. Because it really doesn't make sense to me that SpyreX could actually think all he thought about a possible vig, and then not even slightly doubt Starbuck (BEFORE wolf's argument which cleared her, that is).

Killing yos over BV was really odd play for a vig.
However, it makes total sense for SB with her play as a whole this game.
(Not to mention the whole fact talking about "vigs" versus a limited shot vig is a whole different ball of wax but hey whatever you need to do.)
And, of course, if you really look at everything I say it was weighted against 2 ZL's and not 3 which changes, really, everything.

[SpyreX]

I assume you are asking for my reasoning and not yours? Pushing multiple players is a town tell as I explained previously.

No, I'm explaining I didn't misspeak.

Look at the targets and not the quantity.

Hell, he's still arguing about wolf's super secret machinations for clearing SB.

I guess it's just a matter of how much sense it makes for a town-you to have changed your opinion like that. Yes, 3 ZLs changes the situation, but IMO, not enough for you to completely discard everything you've been talking about before. I could understand you not spearheading a SB lynch (which would actually be the logical conclusion of your earlier speculations on vigs and SB in particular), but clearing her completely seems too much.

Except for that whole very clearly me laying out all the opinions on 2 ZL's versus 3 early game. Which, when proven wrong, changes everything.

Course, whatever we've gotta hang onto at this point, right?

[SpyreX]

Actually, (I'm gonna be gone for a chunk of today so I'm not gonna do it now):

I want you guys (except for ODDin) to play a neat game:

Look at today and give a nice little checkmark for:

1.) A player who is "cleared" but he says "he still thinks is scum"
2.) A player who is "cleared" by someone else who "shouldn't be cleared"

After that is done, look at who is left. Then look at his vote.

Then go OHHH SNAP

[SpyreX]

"Yea letting the ZL live another day has pros and cons buttt"

I know you don't want me to play your neat game, but I'm afraid I don't even get what you're asking for. Care to clarify the rules for the game?

Lets just say I wont need to if people do it.

Wait, so you think ODDin's town?

What???

We are at or very near lylo. So, a mislynch clinches the game for scum. ODDin's "cases" today have been on two pretty clearly town players via NA - which means, if he got his way, it would have been a mislynch. Which means, as scum ZL, he would have won.

I have absolutely no idea how you could have mangled that to say I thought HE was town.

Out for reals. Do me a fav and at least pretend to play my little ODDin game.

[SpyreX]

Seriously we've had everyone but Suave active in the last little bit and ODDin isn't lynched AND Sly AND Starbuck are on the wagon.

Which means that if he was anything but scum this would have been done with.

Damnit iLord win with the right side.

[SpyreX]

And, yes, this whole new "cult recruit me" business at this juncture does make me think iLord is still town making the cult ODDin, EK... Grimmy and Suave?

Maybe. Or he's playing slappywags and I dont get it.

[SpyreX]

Woooo.

I wish I was more active those last couple days - but RL decided to light me on fire.

Still glad to pull it out!

[SpyreX]

For the record I was not happy when I was recruited. Jerk Zombies

[SpyreX]

Two down and only wolf left and me ready to pounce on him for it?

And THEN they recruit me.

FFFF

If I hadn't gotten lucky with ani being so connected well

[SpyreX]

Except he wasn't?

If you weren't a vig you'd have been a total mislynch.

[SpyreX]

The pie lynch was still the worst thing to happen that game. True story.

I saw wolf coming a mile away Thats why he ate me, jerk.

[SpyreX]

Fine,I want to win nayways.

Spy, you need to play more like SWN II. You did amazing there.

Hey now, calling out wolf and watching the other two fall and THEN getting recruited and having to somehow protect wolf and having it pull out was pretty good I'd say.

BTW: Wolf, supreme props for clearing SB the way you did. That was awesome and perhaps one of the best moves possible in that scenario.