Karma Mafia (Game Over!)
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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"Being a douche" contributes to several things, in my experience:Porochaz wrote:
Looks like we have someone who plays from "Ye Olde Book of Scum". Im guessing we'll be butting heads later when Im not being such a douche.bv310 wrote:Seraphim, I've found that it's always scum who try to draw out the RVS in order to get it a bit closer to deadline before the actual play begins. It's usually not close enough to make a difference, but it gives a bit extra time to look for either breadcrumbs (in a theme game) or slight PR-tells.
1) distracts the town from having useful conversation;
2) allows scum players to remain very quiet while douchery happens around them;
3) makes the douche concerned more likely to be lynched, regardless of alignment;
4) spoils people's fun.
I have yet to decide whether or not I care whether you get yourself lynched, but it's annoying to have town sidetracked, scum hiding, and my fun spoiled.
I don't want to give you a hard time. I actually think that a bit of early douchery can be a positive thing in the RVS - a couple of days of anteaters and such can sometimes stimulate some interaction at least, but it would be good to see less of it as the game proceeds into the more serious stages.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I can't empathise with deliberately being a jerk in response. Is it a tactic that has worked in your favour (or that of your side) before?RichardGHP wrote:Well part of my "tantrum" is reaction testing, and part of it is a little frustration. C'mon, you really can't empathise with being panicked and frustrated when 1 person votes you three times?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I suppose my point is that a lot of fuss is always made of "OMG flipflopping scumtell!!!"... "OMG defensive scumtell!!!"... but what we all know (if we really think about it) is that the scum won't be doing anything controversial at this stage on Day 1.
They'll be sitting on the easy wagons, flying under the radar, and letting town tie itself up - as scum always do.
Having said that, I can't really offer up a better wagon at this stage - so perhaps it's worth seeing where the existing wagons take us.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Much the same as I think about Albert, to be honest. Could just be lazy, but that's an accusation that could probably be leveled at the majority of players here (myself included). A bit of pressure might reveal more.Ojanen wrote:dybeck, what do you think about Esp?
I certainly like an Espeonage wagon better than the two that are currently being offered.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I haven't yet picked up anything in farside's post that I personally think it worth pursuing as a line of questioning, there's plenty there and I'm sure that others will spot something I haven't. It's at least content.
I just don't really see anything that bad with anything bv310's done. Seems to be playing in a pretty similar way to he did in our previous game together - where he was pro-town. Incidentally, the exact same accusation about passively agreeing with other players were levelled at him there.farside22 wrote:dybeck post 405: Why do you think this?
Seemed like a reasonable idea at the time. For the record, though, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I've pulled a complete 180 on ABR and I would now like to declare him towards the top of my town list. And no, for the record, this is not me breadcrumbing daycop. I'm just flipflopping. Do scum ever actually exhibit the behaviour traits that he's showing? Really? Stimulating discussion without actually getting oneself lynched Day 1 is a fine art, and I'm really starting to like his style.And your vote is on ABR why?
@Anon, Porochaz, Espeonage, My Milked Eek, Pomegranate: Who would be your top two pro-town players and your top two scum players, if you were able to lynch anyone right now?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I don't think I played with him before - but unconventional can be a good thing in a game like this where not much is moving very fast. Too often on this site people get lynched for standing out though. Historically, I used to play like that a lot and I've got a good few premature lynches to show for it (as town and as scum). Have you got a good example of his erratic play that you can point me to (like in other games)?farside22 wrote:@dybeck: I'm not going to even delve into that WIFOM you are so deftly pulling out of your ass on ABR. ABR is one of those players who will do the most unconventional thing whether town or scum. But knowing I have seen him play well as town and crap as town I don't let him fly by without poking him into a repsonse because his scum play is just as erractic.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Dunno. Maybe I should repeat my previous question before it gets lost in all this waffle.dybeck wrote:@dybeck: why are you so intent on defending a player who isn't really under any pressure when you should be scumhunting?@Anon, Porochaz, Espeonage, My Milked Eek, Pomegranate: Who would be your top two pro-town players and your top two scum players, if you were able to lynch anyone right now?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Unlikely, but this game's going nowhere until the majority of this town has heard enough from bv to make an informed decision one way or another.Seraphim wrote:
First point: yes. But you said you weren't feeling the bv wagon...do you think it warrants your consideration now?dybeck wrote:Seraphim: what's your general impression of the players ON the bv wagon? Generally town? Or some bussers on there?
The reasoning behind my question is that it just seems too early for scum to be bussing one of their own. There's an incredibly juicy alternate wagon on Richard that they could be plugging, whilst still flying under the radar. It just doesn't sit right with me that there'd be bussing going on in this specific situation. Does that make sense?Second point: bv wagon = Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHPEeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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What about me and Seraphim, bv?bv310 wrote:Mostly for reasons that have already been stated re: Richard and Esp. ABR just smells scummy to me based on the sheer lack of contribution and jumping on wagons. I feel like CKD could be scum pushing a mislynch under the guise of a policy lynch, and Farside is for the reason stated.
As for three of four, I don't feel that both CKD and Richard are scum. If they are, then they win the record for quickest bussing in a game.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Sando: Your use of scare words bugs me.
You've accused me of being "wishy-washy" about the two main wagons, when I think I've been very clear - particularly in relation to the bv wagon.
You've accused me of "derailing" because I don't believe in the wagon du jour. There's nosecretplot to "derail" the bv wagon. I don't believe in it, and I don't think it's the best town play. You seem to be trying to scare the rest of us into thinking that if they don't hop on board this flimsy wagon, they'll be up for votes themselves - which just comes across as really scummy to me.
I didn't raise this at the time, because I know I have a tendency to hit the OMGUS button.
But accusing Seraphim of "fence-sitting" is the worst of all. You're throwing a scare word at him which is wholly unjustified - while I don't agree with all his conclusions, Seraphim has been very far from non-committal so far.
Could you expand on your justifications for the above three points you've made?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I'm so glad I stuck my neck out defending you after this gem of wisdom.bv310 wrote:Prod received. Still feel the same as I did before, except now I'm starting to think ABR might actively be trying to hurt us. Opinions are nice, but without reasoning tey're not even worth the energy you took to type them.
CONTENT! POST SOME CONTENT!Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?boberz wrote:You may hate them it doesnt make them scummy. The conclusion is, Richard is scum, this is why so many of us have been on him for so long. The analysis was reading into the posts what they actually meant.
This is ludicorus.
Oja I believe lurking is scummy not just anit town. Reason being, both town and scum have external reasons to lynch, but only scum have tactical reasons to lynch. I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.
And what gives you the impression that external obligations go away once pressure is applied in a mafia thread?
And, Boberz, post #614, does the "I'm acting far too scummy to be scum!" defence work against you? If not, why are you trying to employ it here?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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boberz wrote:I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.Dybeck wrote:Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?
No, come on. You've made an accusation that someone is lurking after being called on it, for tactical reasons,boberz wrote:I dont know what tactical good it might do in this situation, or what they percieve the tactical good is in this situation, because I am not in their situation. But it is clear that there are tactical reasons to lurk and lots of them for scum, the percieved value may supercede that of whatever they are trying to hide or avoid. And with people questioning the tell it only amplifies this.in this situation. You're prepared to lynch upon it - can you elaborate? Or is this another thing you're going to have to retract?
At the very least, you need tothinkabout what you're typing. To quote something as a stock "tell" without actually putting it into context and understanding how a scum would be using itin this situationjust shows a laissez-faire attitude to scumhunting and makes it look like you're trying to get people on board an easy lynch without actually making a case that the voted individual is working to improve the cause of their mafia team.
Andthat, boberz,issomething scum would do.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I don't think that particular post enlightens us about boberz's alignment or that of anyone else.
I don't think tagging it as "IIoA" or anything else is very useful either. Others more au fait with the term might find it useful to do so, but I prefer to read the words in it...Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I don't mean to be unhelpful or to sit on the fence. I just get the impression that "IIoA" is a label that's applied to posts when people (both town and scum) are trying to pigeon-hole posts into scummy envelopes. I haven't come across the term in any of my previous games (to the best of my recollection) so I don't feel like it's worthwhile for me to say whether it falls under this umbrella.Javert wrote:1.)
Given your Post 676, what do you think about Seraphim immediately labeling the post as "IIoA" in Post 642?dybeck, Post 692 wrote:I don't think that particular post enlightens us about boberz's alignment or that of anyone else.
I don't think tagging it as "IIoA" or anything else is very useful either. Others more au fait with the term might find it useful to do so, but I prefer to read the words in it...
If you think the situation is different from from your Post 676, please differentiate them for me.
I don't think that it was informative, nor that it showed a great deal of analysis. I don't know that the post in question particularly adds to the case against boberz. Having said that, I still think there's a reasonable chance that he's scum, and I'd be very happy with a boberz lynch - much happier than I would be with a bv or Richard lynch.
Post #676 pretty much sums up the things that bug me the most about boberz, and I don't think boberz has done anything to answer the points in it, despite having been back and posting since then.
Btw...unvote, vote: BoberzEeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Yet they are the main reason the Richard wagon got its head of steam in the first place, if you cast your mind back. Do you disagree with the reasons why he was voted by several people early on?boberz wrote:Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Boberz only jumped on the wagon late, to bring it to L-2. He wasn't in the game in the initial stages of the Richard wagon. My question is not about whether he wants a Richard lynch - he's made that very clear. My question is how he feels about the votes that were cast upon Richard in the first place - which were mostly based upon Richard's weird overreaction to the first couple of votes.Pomegranate wrote:
...since he happens to be on the wagon...dybeck wrote:
Yet they are the main reason the Richard wagon got its head of steam in the first place, if you cast your mind back. Do you disagree with the reasons why he was voted by several people early on?boberz wrote:Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells.
So Boberz, do you agree with the reason Richard was wagoned in the first place? To bring someone to L-2 is a clear statement of intent to lynch imo.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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They're notAmished wrote:Finally: let me ask you: what motivation would boberz scum have in saying what he did if bv were his partner? Is he trying to protect a fake-claim with that? Something that no scum team ever sets up for day 1? I'm not buying it at all and that is the exact reason why I'm not voting for boberz. The more I think about it I'm getting less and less willing to vote for bv as well.bothscum, soneitherof them is scum?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I find vanilla townies tend to get lynched in any event once they're forced to a claim.
I completely understand that this is the usual way of things and I expect bv310 to bite the dust for this reason. It's hard to believe that boberz is exhibiting some superior skill by unvoting - seems more like a preemptive positioning.
But I hope you will take a closer look at boberz overnight. Believe me, later on, we're going to need to lynch him.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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If you think that I'm so inexperienced as to be deterred from voicing my suspicions by attempting to make me think that others will think I'm scummy for doing so, you do us both a disservice.boberz wrote:
Because it indicates that your mind is closed.dybeck wrote:
Do feel free to explain why.boberz wrote:Dybeck, it is really bad form to set up lynches for the next day in that manner.
Because it indicates you will not be considering all info tomorrow.
Because you help scum know who to avoid tonight (not massively relevant in this case I accept)
Because you create even more WIFOM than normal if one of us gets killed in the night.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Actually, I don't entirely refute your points.
However, rest assured that my mind is not closed. I hope that we do have some more info to discuss tomorrow - today has been a fairly unproductive Day 1 and a couple of flips will give us a lot more to discuss - and less of a tunneled meander into a shot in the dark.
Your last point is fair. In the event that I do die tonight, I suppose I'll just have to leave it in the hands of town to accord the correct weight to scum's (or vig's) decisions to kill me off. You're absolutely right that any arguments that stem from it are heavily WIFOM. It's clearly not a good enough reason not to voice my opinions, though, of course.
Whoever gets killed tonight is likely to form the starting point for discussion tomorrow - and all those who survive the night will need to weigh it up in context. Nobody here is stupid enough to automatically think "he was killed - his suspicions must have been right!" or "he was killed - must be a mafia trick!"Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Not really. Part of your post is stating the obvious. And part is just plain stupid. As with so many of your posts, you are correctly taking fundamentals of the game, but distorting them. Others are more forgiving than I am, and are clearly willing to believe that you just understand the game in a childlike and facile way, which causes you to draw the flat wrong conclusions. I think you're scum.boberz wrote:Is this your way of saying I am right dybeck?
However, your stupidity is nothing compared to your scummate Sando. I will grant you that much.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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That's easily fixed.Pomegranate wrote:I'm sitting here refusing to feel pressured, even though a third of the players alive are voting for me first thing I see D2. Thanks for trying though.
Can you explain a little further?Vote: Espeonage.
tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Maybe reverse psychology will work better...Pomegranate wrote:
Well, how about you read therest of the post other than the tl;dr?dybeck wrote:
Can you explain a little further?Vote: Espeonage.
tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.
Please continue to not make any meaningful contribution to the game. Do not, under any circumstances, elaborate on the reasons for your vote. And please, definitely, give no clearer indication as to why you've picked the suspects you have done as being scum.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Look, you idiots. There's no slip in that claim. I think perhaps that some of you just don't get what a Hider is.
What Pomegranate is saying (albeit inarticulately) is that weak mode hides another player. Strong mode hides both Pomandthat player.
Pom: Do you know what happens if you target mafia with your ability?
Everyone else: Why are we so excited about lynching an obvious town power role?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I'm not in a mega-hurry to lynch claimed power roles.
If we get Pom to report results for the next couple of days, and we're still big on lynching her, then we can still do so - but if she flips town, we'll have a couple of other confirmed town.
Pom - would you be content with the suggestion of using your night action in accordance with the consensus of the town?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Yeah... I've been wondering about this since Pom explained her role. I suspect that there will be some element of scum benefiting from whatever powers are used against them. For example, if Pom hides with a scum, a scum gets to hide themselves.Seraphim wrote:I want to remind people of a few things:
1. The theme of the game. Each role has a weak and a strong mode. We knew this already. But I also want people to take note of the name of the game, which is KARMA MAFIA. And Karma is a BITCH. There is no doubt some sort of penalty for using the strong version too often. Therefore, if we have Pom hide using strong mode, she endangers the town from what we know of the theme.
If thisisalong the right lines, then I don't think it does much harm in discussing it - since scum will already know how it works...
vote: Sando. Now THERE is a wagon that feels right.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Faraday: It doesn't work. Scum could just nk her target and Pom will die too. That's why I retracted my suggestion that we direct her.Faraday wrote:What info do we get if she dies hiding behind someone? We've no idea who she'd have hid behind so we'g get nothing. At least by directing her this becomes possible.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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This is the scummiest thing I've ever read in my life.Faraday wrote:Let me think on this, I thought for a second this wouldn't be a bad thing. I mean wcs we get rid of scummy pom who we're unsure of anyway and I'd assuming we['d get her to investigate people we feel are likely to be mafia anyway, so we'd be forcing the scum into a sub optimal kill just to knock off 2 people?
Scum KNOW who's scum and who's not. Just because we think somebody might be scum, doesn't make them less of an asset if they are town.
You're condoning the idea of giving mafia a two-for-one kill, at least one of which is a power role.
And if the person we get Pom to target IS scum, then we lose her for free anyway.
unvote, vote: Faraday
Also, while I'm here, I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.
We might have a better idea of whether this makes sense as town PRs die and we get more idea of what power roles are in the game - but until we do, I'd advise power roles to consider the repercussions of their night choices.
If this IS true as far as the setup's concerned, I'm not altogether sorry about losing a vig...Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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OK great. Everyone's shown their colours on Pomegranate and we know who wants to lynch her and who doesn't.
What's the problem with waiting a day to lynch? If Pom is scum, we've lost nothing. If Pom is town, we potentially get another confirmed town member, as well as letting cop(s) do their job and potentially get to confirm a power role that will be extremely useful as we get later in the game?
I honestly can't see the urgency in lynching Pom when there are others we'd like to see dead - or at least pressured into giving a reaction.
Am I the only one thinking like this?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Honestly, no. Actually, I do take on board all the reasons she's been voted.Anon wrote:Dybeck, do you have a reason to think Pome might actually be town here?
But I'm just thinking about risk versus reward. We've got a real potential tangible reward in keeping Pomtown alive, and nobody's really put a case that there's a real drawback in keeping Pomscum alive for a night - to see if a tracker or cop can confirm her one way or another tonight, and to get some further usable info from her night action tonight - usable info which will be confirmed fact if we decide to lynch her tomorrow.
Is the main problem that there's nobody else screaming scum?Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Albert B. Rampage wrote:I really have nothing to say until we lynch Pom.
Why is it that I'm SIGNIFICANTLY happier with ABR saying this than I am with Richard saying this?RichardGHP wrote:I really have nothing to say until we lynch Pom.
Just because ABR has decided to take this stance, it does NOT make it a Lurk Out Of Jail Free card for everyone in the game.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Sorry. I have to say "maybe".Seraphim wrote:I have a question that I want everyone to answer: do you think Pom is lying about her claim? I don't want to hear "maybe"s or "let's wait a night"s, I want to hear what everyone's black and white opinion is.
But then, I think she's acting scummier than bv was, and bv was scum, so that shows what I know.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Interestingly, while Pom may not in my top three favourite lynches, none of those who ARE in my top three are actually voting for her.Seraphim wrote:I have a question that I want everyone to answer: do you think Pom is lying about her claim? I don't want to hear "maybe"s or "let's wait a night"s, I want to hear what everyone's black and white opinion is.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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I agree. ABR - you've made your point about Pom. I think we all get where you stand. Stifling conversation and flinging allegations at those who are trying to stimulate discussion is, at best, unhelpful - and at worst, extremely scummy.Porochaz wrote:@ABR...I also think your attempts to derail some useful conversation happening when you have done absolutely fuck all interesting.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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Because you're scum and I'm the only one that's tried to build a wagon on you to date?boberz wrote:Basically dybeck has been bothering me for a while I am sure there is a reason so I will look when I get a bit more time.
Just for reference, town generally look for scummy things and choose a lynch target based upon those things. Choosing a lynch target and then scrabbling for some sort of justification betrays you as scum.
Your joining of the bv wagon and then pulling away at the last minute bothered me yesterday too.
Make your case and I'll tell you what else I think.Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Vote.-
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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dybeck Ooh ooh ooh
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