Supernatural mafia - Mafia team wins!!!!!

[Sawyer]

Hunt: Robocopter

I'll listen to Uncle Sam, before I listen to any one you... even you Robo.

[Sawyer]

Unhunt

Now that I read the player list again, I would be completely fine with policy lynching BlazezRb, Chronopie, or Midnight's Sorrow. Seriously.

We should not be making any policy lynches if we have any sort of lead.

As for the one we seem to be fighting over, I don't see GH not giving their mains being a big deal. If they were going to show their mains, they probably would've just played using them instead. Looking for a meta is fine, but the fact that there's two of them on the same account (two people working together) can make their meta useless as it may not be consistent to their combined play.

[Sawyer]

I haven't been posting very much, but just so everyone knows, I have been reading, just haven't found much to post about until looking in retrospect. I noticed most of the discussion has been about the hydra (though it has settled down) and talk on policy lynches and safeclaims, but things seem to be picking up.

I might be fine with a policy on Chrono too. I don't know the other two. But I would hold off on policy for right now. I think that would only be helping scum early if we just tried it at the beginning.

He says he'd rather hold off on a policy lynch early on because that would only be helping the scum. But in reality, waiting to policy lynch until later (like he implies he wants to) would help the scum more than doing it now. Combine that with the amount of Wifom in some of his posts and he's made my list of suspects.

His mention of seeing what power roles and characters are in the game seems like a given for most of us. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying many of us would like to know about the characters in the game as well. He said he'd like to know that information more than he would like to know about who GH really is. I actually feel the same way, but only because i don't care who GH is and this is the same stance he took. So anyone who voted him because of that, comes off as scummy to me. And even Manga said:

I’ll second the notion that your interest in finding out character identities as opposed to looking for scum is troubling.

This is a clear misrepresentation as to what Kage actually said. Kage said he was more interested in the characters in the game as opposed to who GH's mains are. He nowhere in that post even mentioned looking for scum, so I'm baffled at how Manga came to that conclusion.

Jmj also hunted Kage for his post, but I believe he misunderstood it. I think Kage meant he's curious as to which characters are included in the game (which is what I believe he meant) as opposed to who each person is like what Jmj thought he meant.

Emphasis added. The bolding highlights the places where you’ve chosen to insult LMP, and by corralary myself. Not Pro-Town at all.

The context by which it it assumed that you are more interested in flavour discussion than scum-hunting is inferred by the fact you have done ZERO scum-hunting and plenty of flavor related posting so far.

For the first part, if I were Kage I would've said the same thing, as it seemed fairly obvious what he meant. Insulting people is may be "not pro-town", but it's only scummy if he does it excessively and it's out of character. Bringing up the fact that it's "not pro-town" seems very unnecessary.

For the second part, there hadn't been much scum hunting to do up until that point because all anyone was talking about was the hydra and policy lynching. Considering how he made only 3 posts (including that one) it's interesting why you bring up how he had done "ZERO" scum hunting and plenty of flavor related posted. While true he hadn't done any scumhunting, the only flavour he brought up was in that controversial post so it seems like you are trying to make it look like he's been MUCH less helpful than he really is.

This is exactly why the whole discussion revolving around roles that might or might not be Town is at this point worthless and not Pro-Town.

Again you bring up something Kage said as being "not Pro-town" (you've said it to other people as well). Why? That doesn't make it scummy or anti-town, so why bring it up? To me it just looks like you trying to overemphasis how unhelpful many of his posts are by saying things that look bad, but make no difference. Especially whether or not people are being "pro town" should not be your concern, but whether they're being anti-town or scummy.

Unhunt Hunt: Magnaofillusion

[Sawyer]

Funny, I managed to find things I thought were scummy by my third post. Are you asserting there was no possibility of scum-hunting in the first three days of play? If so I heartily disagree. I have found his play to be scummy and addressed it as I feel appropriate.

I'm not saying that. Your third post was on the last page and i think many of us have found something scummy before then. But Kages controversial post was on page 5 when the hydra was the talk of the town. So let's say Kage never made that post and the hydra was never the talk of the town. Then your second post of the game would have been short responses to only 3 posts. That's not very much compared to how useless you tried to make Kage look.

By definition being “not Pro-Town” is either anti-Town or scummy. I frankly don’t see how you reach any other conclusion. I use ‘not Pro-Town’ when I feel behaviour straddles that ever blurry line between the two. Your opinion of what should or should not be my concern means little to me but thanks for your input.

No, by definition "Not pro-town" is being exactly that: not pro-town. Being interested in one thing over another may not be pro town, but that doesn't make it scummy or anti-town. Anti-town and scummy don't mean the same thing. Let's put it this way:

Pro-town means it benefits towns needs.
Not pro-town means it doesn't benefit town needs (but doesn't necessarily go against them. basically in the default position of meaning nothing).
Anti-town means it goes against town needs
Scummy means it benefits scums needs.

Like saying someones pretty or ugly. Just because they're not one doesn't make them the other. There's a middle ground at that's what "Not pro-town" is and I think you were using it to make Kage look worse.

But that's in the past now that you have openly admitted to thinking it's specifically scummy. So you think his insult (to LMP and yourself) and difference of opinion (knowing which characters are in the game) is particularly scummy? Is there anything else to support your vote (just curious).

[Sawyer]

@Jmj: No need to quote what he says or retell it. I know what he said, I just think you misunderstood. I read it as Kage being curious which characters the mod chose to include as well as which powers she chose to associate with each character. I think you, and maybe others, read it as him wondering which character

each of us are

and what powers we may or may not have..

[Sawyer]

Defending his lack of scum-hunting (which, BTW, has persisted for his entire ISO) by saying he is active lurking is a pretty bad argument to make.

Whether he's scum hunted is neither here nor there in this argument. It's none of my concern in this argument, because I'm not defending him. I'm saying half of your scumhunting in your first real post, was about what Kage said. The rest was hardly anything. And that brings me back to how you used "not pro-town" to make him look worse, but like I said, that's in the past since you admitted that you think it's actually scummy.

For the record notice that since he’s come under fire by myself and others Kage hasn’t bothered to begin scum-hunting but just faded into the background. He’s certainly been active in other threads.

Why point that out? He wasn't scumhunting before his attacks either and he's posting a fair amount so it seems.

As JMJ has succinctly put it the bolded part is role-fishing. Scummy.

It's not role-fishing, it's curiosity. In most themed games I'm sure most people would be curious as to what powers the mod gave each role. Seems as though you're trying to misrepresent what he said, because he never mentioned any of us or any of the players in the game. He just expressed his curiosity of the mods choices for the set up.

Here he further states(in the bolded section) that he really is role-fishing.

He doesn't say he was role fishing, he says that would he's been saying could be helpful (though I disagree). It seems he's trying to say that if a character is evil in the show, then they'll be evil in the game (but that's not necessarily true).

Subtle inference that based on his past games he’s made it deep into the game (regardless of alignment) thus he should do so in this game. Flawed use of meta.

While that is a flawed use of meta, I hardly see how it's scummy.

I suppose I can see your reasons for voting Kage, aside from what I addressed before, even though I don't think they're particularly strong enough reasons to last till later in the game though.

@Kage: You've admitted to not scumhunting, so why not start now?

[Sawyer]

@GHroupThink:

I can't make any solid reads.

It's been 15 pages, so you must have some kind of reads on at least a few players. Most, if not all, of your posts have been non game relevant posts, so what are you waiting for to make a serious post?

Posting a fair amount != scumhunting. Your point?

I didn't say it meant he was scumhunting. I meant Kage was doing the same thing before as he was after he was attacked, so there was no reason to bring it up.

Kage's following post fail to convince me otherwise of changing my vote. In fact, make me think he's scummier.

Unvote
Vote: Snow_Bunny

*facepalm*

Uh?

Goods news, MS posted that, not Kage. What do you think of it now?

I don’t know … because a common tactic for scum when under fire in a large game is to fade into the background and let someone else make a stupid play and draw fire?

Kage made a steady stream of posts, making at least one a day (often more), before and after being attacked. He did not "fade into the background". And it's hard to do that when only about half the people in the game are participating.

Yes it is role-fishing. We aren’t going to agree on this so stop trying to paint your opinion as inherently more valid than mine.

It doesn't come down to opinion. He was either role fishing or he wasn't. I will openly admit to being curious about which roles to mod chose to include. Does that put me on your list of suspects?

Please explain what in the hell you mean by the bolded portion.

I mean I don't think your reasons for a vote now will be very strong later in the game when there's more to work with.

What happened with the love to the Kage wagon? Sometimes obv scum is obv scum (though, it would be best if I fully read the game... ¬_¬. Meh, I'm too tired to read anything now, so that will have to wait.)

Yeah, it would be best if you read the whole game. That way you could give us your thoughts on someone other than Kage.

[Sawyer]

I agree with Hydrak on Kage's lynch. If it gets to deadline, then fine, but otherwise replacing out may be due to anger or something similar instead of feeling pressured.

Kage's following post fail to convince me otherwise of changing my vote. In fact, make me think he's scummier.

Unvote
Vote: Snow_Bunny

*facepalm*

Uh?

Goods news, MS posted that, not Kage. What do you think of it now?

I must say I quite don't understand this post. If you mean the vote, I know it was MS, not Kage. Otherwise, I don't know what you're talking about.

You said "Kage's following post". Kage didn't post that, MS did (as you seem to now know). Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Well, I already gave my thoughts (albeit reduced) on another player: MS. I am reading him as scummy. Here, have some more thoughts. Tubby is playing town as I remember him playing town, so I'll assume town for now. I don't get the case on Reaper, and I'm finding the Nero Cain's case on Benmage not that strong (just a lot of quotes, a huge wall of text, but nothing really good.) And thus, I'm happy with Kage's lynch for now (although I wouldn't mind a wagon on MS)

Ok, so did you finish catching up then?

[Sawyer]

Wow, Kage was killed. If he flips town then I can guarantee there was some scum on the wagon. More likely earlier than later.

My reasons for my hunt being on Magna relied on his long term reactions to KagE. And since Kage is dead, I'm gonna have to keep it in the back of my mind, since I can no longer further the investigation for that particular suspicion. But I have noticed, Midnight is being quite passive and just going with the flow, while hopping on wagons that quickly gather votes. And he switches his vote, on average, once every 5 posts so he seems very uncommitted.

Unhunt Hunt:Midnight Sorrow

Kage originally had said that he was interested in finding out what characters are in the game and what the role powers are. The only way he would be able to find this out is if people claim who they are, thus "finding out character identities". This is also known as ROLEFISHING.

Or he could find out if people died. The fact that you or anyone else actually thinks that was a serious attempt to make people claim is absolutely ridiculous. And I suspect anyone that thinks that's what he was doing.

Wow, can you stop answering for him now?

I didn't give an answer to a question. But if it was a question, Kage already posted about a dozen times between Magnas post and my response, so he would've answered already. Not to mention all I did was give my opinion to help people understand. But I do appreciate you trying to manipulate what I said though. Really I do.

Wrong, he's being lynched because he replaced out of here and replaced into another game.

Wow, the only reason you don't have my vote is because of your claim.

@Sawyer – I have a question that you certainly don’t have to answer if you don’t wish to. Are you an alt perchance?

You could say that. I used to play a couple years ago and this is my new account I'm starting anew with.

[Sawyer]

Nice backtrack hydrak.[/sarcasm] But seriously, with the rolefishing KageLord had done, along with his general lack of scumhunting, plus the fact he asked to replace out of this game while joining another, all screamed scum. You and sawyer trying to stop the lynch of him is mightily suspicious. Sawyer's balantant defense of KageLord, plus your lack of scumhunting is not making you look good either. Sawyer just climbed my list of suspects due to this post, then his subsequent posts: post 213 where he states Kage is one of his suspects, but he spends the whole day trying to stop the wagon on Kage. He never offers up any evidence to the contrary about Kage being town, but tries to stop us from lynching him. I would feel comfortable with either a hydrak or sawyer lynch, because I think they both are scum together. as such, I am going to contribute towards the lynch of one of my suspects and

HUNT: hdrak

.

I never tried to stop Kage's lynch. What I did was try to keep people from voting him for the wrong reasons. So you're saying that because I think Kage is suspicous for one reason, that means I should go along with any other reasons as to why he's scummy just because it helps the case against him? Hmmm, interesting. Is that what you would do?

Quite frankly, my job isn't to point out why certain people are town (like you seem to imply it is), it's to point out why certain people might be scum.

I'm curious because I can't quite follow the case against Hydrak, why are you in particular voting Hydrak? Meaning, why do you think he's scum?

[Sawyer]

Sawyer, you mean besides the fact that he has one of the most unbelievable claims I have ever heard, plus his attempt at defending KageLord before his lynch, made me suspicious of them.

Ok, so before the claim, when you had your vote down, the one reason was because he defended Kage? I assume that's why you suspect me as well?

Also, the following question wasn't rhetorical:

So you're saying that because I think Kage is suspicous for one reason, that means I should go along with any other reasons as to why he's scummy just because it helps the case against him? Hmmm, interesting.

Is that what you would do?

[Sawyer]

No, but you never bothered to post a case or any substantial reason as to why you found him suspect other than your initial post stating your suspicion. You instead just said your initial suspicion then nothing baout his later posts.

Because I didn't agree with the suspicion of his later posts. How is that not obvious?

You instead defended him and tried to discredit the people who were voting him with your speculation about what you thought he meant. You never once gave evidence to support your views, and he never came in to validate yours.

I gave reasons as to why I thought what he meant, and in a post in response to you, no less.

Therefore, I think you were saying you were suspicious of him to just go along with the popular opinion of town.

Then why didn't I go along with with everyone else when they thought his conversational post was scummy? I'm baffled at how you came to that conclusion.

[Sawyer]

The point of the matter is the fact that your defense of him is based off of your speculation about what he said and no hard fact.

And everyone else's offense is based off of there speculation about what he said with no hard fact. Your point?

As to why you didn't go along with town when they found his conversational post scummy, you wouldn't want it to be so obvious that you were just following along with town's suspicion.

Is it just me or does anyone else think he's reaching here?

So you haven't noticed anyone else that outright went with the towns suspicion, rather than trying not to be obvious?

You have already stated when you signed up your are at least semi-experienced player, so I am sure you know how to play the distancing scum very well.

If you think I was defending Kage, how would I be distancing myself from him?

[Sawyer]

I find it quite funny that Day 2 opens and we see an rush of Day 1 lurkers popping up to comment on game design and not discuss their almost total absence Day 1.

Wow, I didn't even noticed that. I doubt it's coincidence.

Scum can cross-kill? Sounds like a case of ‘Inadvertant slip of information that only scum have at this point’. If that’s the case thanks for letting us know early that we are in a multi-scum team environment.

Unhunt – TheLonging
Hunt – Tubby

^Ok, I definitely noticed that. Add this to his suggestion of not hunting anyone today...

Hunt: Tubby

[Sawyer]

Sawyer: What do you think about me coming back? Also I know I was absent most of D1, V/LA's suck. I'm planning to change that and be much more active here.

Oh yeah

4) tubby slipped

I don't think much of it. Sometimes people can't post or just don't want to (whether you're town or scum). The only way I'd have a real opinion on it is if you posted enough previously for me to get a read on you, but you didn't.

[Sawyer]

The crossroads demon is the middle man when it comes to selling your soul to the devil. But in the show, he tried to help kill the devil, so he's not just a bad guy if it's a question of Chronos claim being a VT.

[Sawyer]

So you weren't told you were a millar?

[Sawyer]

Hunt: KageLord

Maybe this will make him dead as a door nail..

Now that I think of it, Midnight would be a damn good lynch also. Maybe tomorrow eh?

As to why you are scum it's simple and I'll just put it out there for everyone to see

You were Tracked last night to Molestargazer who quite convienantly is Waiting in the Wings.

I'd rather not pussy-foot around with you. You may begin to flail about now.

More Reaper votes people!!!!

Lol wow, that was a game changer. But I believe his claim so my votes staying where it is. I really don't see the point in claiming when apparently no one will believe them.

I didn't think Benmage was scummy at first with the GH issue, but now I'm thinking otherwise because he's not even hunting with his eyes open. He's using moles death to his advantage just so he could get Reaper lynched. Even before he claimed, there was a possibility that Reaper could have been just a Vig (most likely), Tracker, Cop, Doc, or any number of things and Ben still didn't change his vote. Even after Reaper claimed to be a Vig/Tracker, he didn't even think about removing his vote. So not only is he and apparently many of people willing to risk lynching a Vig/Tracker, but they're willing to do so without getting a flip afterwards. Wooooooow.

[Sawyer]

Umm I know it was probably just a rambling list but how in the heck could Reaper have claimed Doc / similar style role if Mole is dead.

It was just a rambling list, but since you asked, I think there are a few roles that could negate the effect of a doc, like a JK.

Is it your opinion that players should be required to unvote simply based on a claim? Tracker is essentially unproveable and unchallengable when said Target is dead. We already have a proven Dayvig. Given three people died last night it is also likely that we have some other Town vig style role. How many Vigs / Limited Vigs do you think are reasonable for a game this size?

This is exactly why why Reapers claim should be more likely true than not. Fakeclaiming Tracker would not automatically clear him of suspicion when he targeting someone that's dead, especially when you claim to be a tracker as well. So if he was scum, I'd say he would be much more likely to claim Vig, since that would explain why he targeted someone that's dead without being scum.

No...I ROLEBLOCKED HIM!!

Whoa, this game has so many twists and turns. So you roleblocked Magna? Why him?

[Sawyer]

Magna claims to have done something in the night when roleblocked, and you ask me why I choose him?

*facepalm*

When did Magna claim to have done something during the night. Oh that's right, Day 2. Are you saying, during Day 1, you knew he would claim to have done something during the night (meaning, are you claiming to be able to know the future?). Fool. I ditto that facepalm.

I choose him because excessive Pro-Town play during D1 does not a townie make me feel you are. In fact, warning bells tingle ever so slightly. I do not think Magna is town, despite the play he's be doing, which seems to be fooling everyone cept me...so what do you know?

I agree with how pro-town play doesn't mean he's town, but I think a roleblock is a weird way to test it. And dude, Reaper already admitted to have Tracked Mole, so it looks likes your roleblock didn't take.

[Sawyer]

Did Reaper, or did he not, already say that he Tracked Mole? Answer: Yes he did. So not only does that means your roleblock didn't take, but you made yourself a target. Nice job, fool

[Sawyer]

Good god, let me try to make this as easy to understand as possible.

You roleblocked Magna.
Magna claims he Tracker RC to Mole.

RC admits he tracked Mole

Revelation: Your roleblock didn't work.

Could you get that through your thick skull?

[Sawyer]

Ok, I give up. You're a lost cause.

[Sawyer]

But I think ani is a potential future target, or vig if one of those NK's is a vigger.

A vig like, maybe, ReaperCharlie?

I do agree with ani as a potential future target though if he isn't NK'd. His D1 lurking combined with being one of the first to post when Day 2 started is rather odd.

[Sawyer]

Wow, Benmage, you seem to have a pretty bad case of tunnel vision. Let's get you the appropriate glasses, shall we?

[Sawyer]

What makes you so certain RC didn't kill Mole when he was tracked there and Mole is dead...or riiiight his fakeclaim

I'm not certain. There's no reason I see why I shouldn't believe him. But you never saw any reason to believe it for some reason. We're assuming the opposite of each other with the same information. We either think that there's nothing scummy (my thoughts) about his claim or nothing pro-town (your thoughts) about his claim. We both think one or the other because we are both assuming what

could have happened

, not what certainly happened.

RC admitted he used a night action on Mole. Here's where the difference of opinion comes in. You think he's scum because he targeted Mole and now he's dead. I don't think it's scummy because he could've just claimed Vig instead (which you probably would have believed due to post 792). That's exactly why I think you're scummy for not believing it. Because he could've made up a lie that you would've believed, and you still suspect him based on a hypothetical.

[Sawyer]

Look at it this way: One of Magna or RC is lying.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why is this the case? Why can't they both be town? They could both be telling the truth and both be town at the same time. It seems like you're trying to force a lynch on either of these two.

[Sawyer]

Do you agree that RC only admitted to targetting Mole after the track result?

I do agree, but I wouldn't expect him to admit to it beforehand. Why would he?

Do you admit that RC made a scummy play with his "non-Tubby votes are NOT contributive" statement?

I don't. I don't think he meant that exactly. When I read that, I read it as him saying your non tubby vote was scummy. I figured it was bad wording. Like when refers to someone else as town and people say "how do you know he's town?"

What in RC's play (not including the claim) makes you think he is pro-town?

I don't think he's necessarily pro-town, just not scummy.

Do you have any reason to doubt MoI is pro-town? If you had to believe one of MoI or RC's claim, which would you believe? Have you ever played a game with multiple town Trackers?

Not at the moment. If I had to believe only one, it would be MoI, because RC admitted to it. No, but I also don't know how often it happens.

[Sawyer]

Why are we even wasting our time here? A player who you have a neutral read on just got tracked to someone whose dead. The most/best information we can attain today is seeing this person hang.

Actually, assuming we still don't get any flips, no lynch will get as anymore information than the other. But if we do get a flip, then the most/best information we can get today,

for the non-believers

, is a RC lynch. For the people who don't doubt RC's claim, you could prove to be a valuable lynch.

Does the "why can't they both be town" mean that you now think MoI is town?

That's not what I meant, though I am reading MoI as more likely town than scum. You were saying that one of them had to be lying, when that's not the case. They could both be town and both be telling the truth. When you say that, it sounds like you're trying to force a lynch on one of them.

You say you don't think he is necessarily pro-town, but not scummy. Please explain what this means.

Basically, it's close to a neutral read. I've had no scum read from him at all (or at least nothing big enough to remember =P). He's been a regular contributor and I've seen no inconsistencies with his posts.

We're in a situation here where we have to sort out this mess. I think the best way to sort out this mess is to lynch RC. Who do you propose we lynch if we don't lynch RC? Why should we leave a player who was tracked to an NK alive? Wouldn't it require amazingly strong evidence towards someone else's guilt? In other words, isn't the burden of proof required to build a case for someone else's lynch much higher since we KNOW RC visited Mole last night?

Who do you want lynched if not RC?

Well, the burden of proof is in the accuser. Innocent until proven guilty as they say. Personally I think a better lynch would be Benmage. He pushing for this lynch hard and he's doing so based on a hypothetical (as I've explained earlier). He's acting like a prosecutor trying to get a guilty without evidence. You seem to have more reasons to believe RC's scum, but Benmage has been noticeably pushing the lynch with much mention of the claim itself. And the fact that he never once considered a town possibility doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Sawyer]

You basically wanna lynch anyone but RC, even though you admit he isn't reading pro-town and admit he was tracked to Mole. You suggest that maybe I should be the lynch, but then go on to say Benmage should be the lynch, but you don't vote either one of us. If RC flips scum, as much as I wanna lynch MS, I think you're next.

I didn't say

you

could be a valuable lynch. I was responding to Benmage in that post. So I said Benmage would be a good lynch both times. All is good

[Sawyer]

So you’re a non-believer who now also thinks I'd be the best lynch....okkkk.

Not the best lynch, but a good lynch nonetheless.

[Sawyer]

Ok whose the best?

I'm thinking Tubby, at the moment. He's been lurking, and his suggestion that we don't lynch and saying that scum could have cross killed (what I find to be a scum slip) make him a better lynch then you. But I wouldn't be surprised if this RC issue went far enough that I'd think your lynch would be almost necessary due to the uncertainly of whats going on.

[Sawyer]

I want to address this because I want to be sure I’m clear on this. You seem hung up on the portion of Reaper’s claim that is Vig based.

1. We have one proven Vig (Day Variety in Starbuck)
2. We had three kills last night. Reaper has claimed not to be one of them. Unless you are buying into a multi-Scum team plus Serial Killer set-up one of those kills is likely also a Vig.

How many Vigs do you think the game is likely to support?

I didn't mean he was the one that killed Mole as a Vig. As of now, I believe Reapers claim entirely. And Ben suggested a Vig and I was referring to Reaper because he has a Vig ability.

[Sawyer]

Way to evade the point of my post.

1. Do you believe that none of the Night 1 kills are the result of a Vig?
2. How many Vigs (1 shot or otherwise) do you think is reasonable in a balanced scenario? We have 1 confirmed (Starbuck), 1 who claimed Vig but also claimed not to shoot (Reaper) and the potential for more from the kills last Night.
3. What happens if we see more Vig indications from flips or other claims?

1. No, I don't believe that.
2. I couldn't say without being aware of every other role (before you and everyone else freaks out, no I'm not asking for a mass claim).
3. Personally, I'll cross that bridge when we get to it. But I do think it would be unwise for scum to keep fakeclaiming having a Vig ability.

[Sawyer]

Sawyer is apparently gonna keep naming everyone he can in hopes that one of them will get some sympathy. We need RC to hang, and when he flips scum, Sawyer is next.

Just like when Kage flips I'll be next or when Hydrak flips I'll be next. Why is that being against a lynch makes me scum? And I hardly see how Tubby and Ben are everyone (as you say above).

[Sawyer]

Ani, Magna is Dean Winchester and he was in fact roleblocked. Magna said that his partner, Sam, tracked RC and thats were his info is coming from.

[Sawyer]

MS or RC is where I'm down to hang. Once either flips scum, Sawyer gets to hang too.

Why am I scum for not agreeing with what you think? Particularly when your reasoning can be considered faulty.

[Sawyer]

Because the reasoning is strong.

But you shouldn't worry after all I said when they flip scum, and they're your town reads. So why you sweating?

Your reasoning is based on a hypothetical without anything to support it. That's not strong reasoning. Just because they're my town reads, that makes them town and I shouldn't worry? The fact that you'll want to lynch me based on them being scum alone makes you even more suspicious.

[Sawyer]

Additionally I’m not really enamored that you’ve spent most of the game defending other players willy-nilly and not really scum-hunting Sawyer.

I'm not "defending" players. I explaining my own views, while talking about why I disagree wih the other point of view. And in doing so, I get reads on the other players. For example, through this RC predicament, Benmage is coming off awfully scummy to me. LMP is to an extent as well, but not so much due to how he has multiple reasons to believe what he does. Let's be honest, RC and Tubby (not as much though) have been the talk of the town for Day 2. Through it all, I look for inconsistencies and unbelievable reasons/reactions for actions/events. That's how I form reads. Though I can see how you and others don't think I'm scum hunting since I don't agree with most of the big suspects you've all had (one of which I was already proven right about).

[Sawyer]

I'm just digging myself farther into this neat little hole, ain't I?

SSBF:

I have nothing solid yet

You know who're digging yourself farther into a hole and yet you continue to say you have nothing solid yet. It's been almost 40 pages, so I fail to see how any town player has no top suspect(s).

[Sawyer]

Nice straw-man here. I never mentioned you were not scum-hunting because you didn’t agree with my suspects. I said you were not scum-hunting because you spend all your time attacking other’s cases. But please, other than their attacks on RC, illustrate how Benmage and LMP are scum? I’d really like to see an actual case and not what amounts to ‘gut’.

Benmage's reaction to RC is the bulk of my reasons for thinking he may be scum. The other being his push for GH to reveal who they are (which I thought was just preference until how irrationally he reacted to RC's claim). In case you missed my reasoning for thinking he may be scum because of the claim:

Your reasoning is based on a hypothetical without anything to support it. That's not strong reasoning... The fact that you'll want to lynch me based on them being scum alone makes you even more suspicious.

I don't think it's scummy because he could've just claimed Vig instead (which you probably would have believed due to post 792). That's exactly why I think you're scummy for not believing it. Because he could've made up a lie that you would've believed, and you still suspect him based on a hypothetical.

He pushing for this lynch hard and he's doing so based on a hypothetical (as I've explained earlier)... Benmage has been noticeably pushing the lynch with much mention of the claim itself. And the fact that he never once considered a town possibility doesn't sit well with me at all.

Like I've also said many times as well, LMP may be scum, but my scumread on him isn't nearly as strong as it is on Benmage, since LMP's made it clear time and time again that his suspicion of RC is based on more than just his claim. So basically, I think LMP is either town that really believes what he's saying (though a bit blinded) or he's scum that's trying to put as much as he can against RC.

[Sawyer]

Wow, not only does Benmage find more bad reasons to keep his vote on RC, but he's asking for a claim which he won't believe anyway. I guess asking for a claim is at least a good way to look like you care. I do like TheLongings guarantee of flips though. And Ythans first content post is unimpressive to say the least.

*sigh* RC, you made it all this way without my suspicion and then you go and say you'd policy lynch a player if they're playing well? Dude, come on...

[Sawyer]

And Ythans first content post is unimpressive to say the least.

Clearly the first part of an ongoing analysis. Defense noted.

I know what it was for (but good luck in trying to put my post in a negative light). It makes more sense to make less posts covering more of the thread, rather than one post per page (or less). And it will keep you from changing you vote as much (which would likely happen).

[Sawyer]

So ani, you've already been lynched by the look of it. Got a claim for the hell of it?

[Sawyer]

Vote: TheLonging

Glad you're back and looking scummier than ever. 3 Questions.

1. What's your response to this post?
2. Why are you voting TheLonging
3. Why is Tubby no longer "the best lynch"? (your words)

[Sawyer]

Well, Mole was inactive during most of Night, only having made just one post an hour before deadline, so i guess he still could've submitted a NA. But how would that work since he got killed? Mole's NA wouldn't go through since he was killed would it?

[Sawyer]

Since your claim still sounds believable to me, I can also believe that Mole didn't submit his NA during that 1 hour he was here.

[Sawyer]

He’s either Cult (and defending his partner Reaper) or he’s some other Scum wanting Town cred for defending what he thought was multiple non-Scum players. In either case he’s not looking too good in my eyes.

Why do I have to be an antitown role in this situation? Why do I have to be scum to defend multiple non-scum players? Why can't I be town who believed his claim (since that's the only "defense" I portrayed)? Not to mention how buddying (if that's what you want to call it) is one of the most classic scumtells, who in the right mind would openly defend a scumbuddy/cultbuddy that much?

[Sawyer]

@SSBM, I got down to your 5th response to my posts until I just deleted whatever I was gonna respond with because all you did was bring up any sort of post that showed me believing his claim and even turning posts about other people into a RC defense, so I won't bother. That's all your post comes down to is listing points where I showed my belief of his claim. Nice way to look like you choosing to lynch with more than you have though.

[Sawyer]

Well, there's no reason or even a way to defend myself, because the only reason for my lynch is that I believed RC's claim. And how was I the cause of your death?

[Sawyer]

@SSBM, I got down to your 5th response to my posts until I just deleted whatever I was gonna respond with because all you did was bring up any sort of post that showed me believing his claim and even turning posts about other people into a RC defense, so I won't bother. That's all your post comes down to is listing points where I showed my belief of his claim. Nice way to look like you choosing to lynch with more than you have though.

Here is what I also attacked you for:
- Chainsaw defending ReaperCharlie on Benmage and Midnight's Sorrow, former is very likely town, latter is confirmed townie.
- Dodging questions.
- Claimed the ReaperCharlie could be a Vigilante when evidence supported otherwise.
- Distancing.

So really, it is more then you believing ReaperCharlie's claim.

At least one of your points wasn't even about RC (just included his name), so that's no chainsaw defense. It was the one when I was talking to MS. As for me saying Reaper could be a Vig, there was no evidence of anything, just evidence to support views. His claim supported my own, just like it supported yours. Distancing? Hah.

Yes, I died after I attempted to hide behind him.

... So you think that means it was me that killed you? Well, you keep believing that and ignore any thoughts of other possible roles.

Poor little old me … why can’t I be an innocent who doesn’t scum-hunt but instead spends all his time defending players based on poor reasoning?

Nice avoiding the question. So I'm gonna guessing it's just because you like to tunnel then. Like you did to RC.

Its not that at all dude. Quite a few of us, myself and Spyrex did believe his claim. In fact I'd go so far as to say it was most likely true.

But I expressed my belief the most, so that makes me most likely to be scum apparently.

See? His character was never revealed? So, to me, a recruited Bobby isn't a far stretch.

What gets it for me is this.

Oh wow, I didn't even think of that. He was probably recruited after all that suspicion was put on him.

Hopefully TheLonging's "relevant" information will have something to do with Jmj.

[Sawyer]

TheLonging, just curious, why did you claim? Granted, you could've claimed at the very beginning just to set the record straight (and prove it through the NA's), without fear of being NK'd. But why claim now?

But given your scummy play I’m inclined to believe him.

For someone who loves to use the term "not pro town", I would think you'd use it correctly. Me believing RC's claim is what made everyone suspicious of me. So, I've just had "not pro town" play.

And you missed the whole point of the response. There’s no real Town motivation for sitting around defending two players as opposed to scum-hunting. Anything that you have done that is remotely close to scum-hunting revolves around your belief in the Innocence (via claim or play) and attacking those who don’t.

That's false.

I do like to Tunnel when I’ve found scum. Just like I did with RC.

No, you like to tunnel when you think you've found scum. You know how you got RC lynched? Because you choose to believe the situation that would incriminate him, rather than the one that would mean he's innocent (without hesitation as well). You got lucky, really.

So the Cult decided to recruit him after he had been pushed to claim the day before and was Public Enemy #1 if he didn’t Vig satisfactorily or molestar flipped Town. Right.

Glad you agree.

But it was related to ReaperCharlie where you said he tracked molestargazer. Also, Midnight's Sorrow did say you misrepped him and I agree.

Related because I mentioned it, yes. I don't know where he said I misrepped him, but he was wrong because I only stated what seem to be fact at the time.

Technically, claims are suppose to be evidence that he really does have a role.

Ok then. And I believe he had that role because the evidence was his claim.

[Sawyer]

Oh, and I've never played in game with a hider before, but couldn't a Roleblocker negate that ability.

[Sawyer]

Oh, and I've never played in game with a hider before,

but couldn't a Roleblocker negate that ability

?

Anyone?

[Sawyer]

Bzzt … wrong. It’s not just the fact that you believed RC’s claim. You called several of those who didn’t believe him as potential scum for believing the track result (which of course we know was correct)/ And you defended Kage. And your scum-hunting isn’t active hunting just attacking those who make cases on others. And now to top it off JMJ’s claimed you directly scum based on his Hide result Night 1. What wait, wouldn’t it be bad not to believe his claim? That’s the standard you seem to champion.

I said Benmage and LMP could have likely been scum. Benmage was tunneling harder than I thought possible and was scumhunting with his eyes closed. He has no excuse and quite frankly was playing horribly. That's just 2 people. That's hardly several of the ones who didn't believe. So what if I defended Kage? He was town, so that doesn't help what you're getting at. I never said I don't believe jmj's claim, but obviously a roleblocker or some other role was at work.

No, it’s true. We can do this all day. Unless you can provide a solid Town motivation for the play that I’ve repeatedly mentioned just stating ‘wrong’ is sad.

Then I guess the truth is sad, because it's a fact that you were wrong. So there's no point in arguing it. If you actually read the thread for what it says rather than what you want it to say, then you'd have noticed.

HAHAHAH. Do you think Sam and I didn’t have good reason to track Reaper Night 1? Seriously? Read my ISO Day 1 again. Reaper was so on the radar it wasn’t funny. The only serious discussion Benmage and I had was whether to track or vig him.

But I appreciate the whining that we “got lucky”. Keep believing that and we can talk post game once your flip comes to light.

You got lucky regardless of my flip.

We agree if you think the statement that he was converted after Day 2 was incredibly stupid. If you don’t think that you missed the sarcasm inherent in the eye-roll.

Don't backtrack, you already agreed.

He said you misrepped him in here.

Also, claims are not facts, they are evidence. Sure they are proveable, but they are not facts. If they were facts, ReaperCharlie's claim would be true. But claims aren't always true, are they?

Did you not read the rest of that conversation and just stopped at "misrep" or are you just scum doing your selective reading thing?

I never said claims were facts. You said they were evidence and I practically agreed.

[Sawyer]

It may take a day longer, but if you guys are so bent on the idea that me defending RC means I'm his cult buddy, why not just revive Hydrak tonight and have him try to unrecruit me tomorrow night? Since that would mean your ideal lynch for today would take longer (and be proven incorrect), I'm sure no one will go for it, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway.

You do know that Benmage was so aggressive against Reaper because HE WAS THE ONE WHO ACTUALLY TRACKED HIM TO THE KILL, right? Calling his play horrible when it was aggressively trying to lynch a Cult member is just plain bad.

He had the same information as us, so that's no excuse.

Fact – a Town player who is not a Cop or Mason / Neighbor has no reason to instinctively defend others like you have.

What can I say? I guess I don't like when people I think are town look like they're going to get lynched. Not for the wrong reasons anyway. Call me crazy...

Wah wah wah wah. I like that you’ve pretty much owned up to the fact that your flip will reflect badly on you.

I guess you don't know what the word "regardless" means.

[Sawyer]

Sawyer goes. I'm not sure why this is still going strong.

Me neither. If there's one thing this town has shown, it's that they don't think twice. They just do it.

Since no-one is asserting that you MUST be Cult this isn’t a very good plan. You certainly could just as easily be Scum. In general anyone saying ‘Just hold off one more day then lynch me if X,Y or Z” is scum in my experience. Nice effort though.

Really? i was under the impression that must be what they thought since the only reason for my lynch is believing the claim.

He did have the same information as everyone else. Just because you foolishly chose to accept Reaper’s lies doesn’t make those who don’t scummy in their aggressive pursuit of lynching a non-Town player.

It doesn't when they go about it the way he did. He never even considered RC's claim, he was just in a blind tunnel based on indecisive evidence.

Sure I don’t. . Your time to face the noose is drawing ever closer scum … continue to throw insults if it keeps your obviously fragile ego intact.

It's not an insult. Your response implied that you don't know what it means. That's fine, I don't know the meaning of every word either.

[Sawyer]

Sawyer, you haven't answered this question. Who are your suspects and why? And why didn't you vote them when you had the oppertunity?

Tubby and SnowBuddy. I believe Tubby made a scum slip early on and didn't like when he suggest that we no lynch. And snow bunnies been avoided the thread and questions to her. I didn't see much point in voting either of them today, because well... look at the votecount It wouldn't have done much.

[Sawyer]

Pro-Tip – Being tracked to a killed player means more often than not that the player was the killer.

True. If only Ben acted that way rather than acting like that's what it always meant.

HAHAHAHAHAH. Seriously, go play with your friends at your school who think this sort of comment actually ‘stings’.

Ok, you're clearly offended at what I've been saying, so I'm just gonna drop it.

The classic scum mindset. You voting and pushing for their lynch might give them some Town credibility when you flip scum.

If you think I'm mafia scum, then how would that give them town credibility? Why can't they be cult?

[Sawyer]

@Magna: You're a as much of a lost cause as MS, it's too bad you're practically confirmed town.