/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Amished]

Yeah, no rolecop; that's the most dangerous one for scum in my eyes.

I was considering exactly what hoopla suggested; roleblocker and assassin. Roleblocker needs to find a PR; and if they think that they have one they'll just try to kill it anyways. There's no synergy; and they won't have given us much power in any case to make a roleblocker all that useful.

[Amished]

Ok, there's one other thing about a janitor: no associative tells.

It's like 2 day 1's in a row. You don't know if defending a person was scum defending a buddy or just going for a townie. It adds a lot of layers of WIFOM there as well. Unfortunately I think if we do an assassin; we can't have a rolecop so it's down to janitor or roleblocker.

I would assume that scum would've thought of two-hiders/docs = mini-mason buddies; and put only one in there and possibly then has that open to a fake-claim. With the talent in the game; that's very easy for me to see that they would do that and the roleblocker would then be a good choice for us since if there is a "safe-claim" for them; every other role would have to claim to prove that one of them is lying.

~ninja'd~ I agree with Rhinox's assessment of probable town power.

[Amished]

I definitely give scum credit looking at the player list. Doubt 2 hiders and don't like seeing a claim like Troll suggested (naive at best). In that case I don't see why we shouldn't give them a *4-shot* (and not unlimited) roleblocker and an assassin. My stance on a janitor is still the same (does not allow accurate wagon analysis; nor associative tells; especially with the player list being what it is) and a rolecop is the worst possible role to give the scum.

Vote: Roleblocker
Vote: Assassin

Vote: Option 2 deadline

This, in my eyes, is the best. While it gives the scum the most options for WIFOM if a town power role comes up (roleblock for the lynch the next day; or an assassin); it also makes protecting a certain buddy extremely prioritized (which helps immensely) in the case of an assassin being part of their team. I trust our PR's enough to remain hidden from the scum anyways which would make any missed shot (which is extremely likely) very damaging for them.

Basically it encourages them to take unnecessary risks which I feel we can capitalize on in the long run.

[Amished]

@Elmo: How many games have you played with Elli?

I oppose any claiming strategy.

[Amished]

Was pretty sure over half supported it. Zorb's point was that scum, if they assumed getting Roleblocker was a pretty safe bet,

might

have done it, and that if they haven't it's extremely low risk. But I'll vote along, I guess. Anything to move on, really. Please.

Hider claim?
Yes - 1 (Plumegranate)
No - 2 (ekiM, Amished)

Massclaim?
Yes - 0 ()
No - 3 (ekiM, Plumegranate, Amished)

[Amished]

Essentially the only reason I oppose a hider claim is the ease of which the scum could manipulate it. I do believe they didn't think that we'd massclaim; but it's still easy for scum to come up with a way to mess with us. I think that trusting our PR's to do the right thing instead of outing themselves and being open to scum manipulation is the way to go.

[Amished]

Not a hider

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Rolecop
Vote: Janitor

What troll said. Especially since if DGB is telling the truth the scum only have 3 PR's to look for and still have to NK them as their only choice.

[Amished]

I don't like the decision to give the scum multiple choices to deal with any town-power roles. A roleblocker + a janitor does exactly that since they can fake-claim without town knowledge if we do hit a PR (which is optimal scum strategy whenever they get to a L-1 situation anyways). They can leave a PR alive and roleblocked (if true) or fake-claim and then have a believable excuse for not having any results.

Rolecop does nothing for them at this point since they can't have rolecop+assassin. Do not give them a roleblocker on top of the fucking janitor.

[Amished]

Do not give them a roleblocker on top of the fucking janitor.

You'd rather have assassin? It is counter-intuitive.

Check where I'm voting.

@mith: The rolecop was dangerous without any claiming at all (which I was opposed to the whole time). With them having a janitor now; I would rank a rolecop as the weakest possible combination with that (roleblocker being the strongest). Giving them a roleblocker only allows them to successfully hide behind a fake-claim indefinitely, especially if the fake-claimer is the roleblocker himself. No matter what we do with the first PR-claim we're screwed. If we let them live; they can roleblock if town (and therefore deprive us of a PR without giving the confirmed town status) or then we're letting scum survive a lynch. If we lynch them; then they can janitor and we're in the dark for the rest of the game if there's 3 PR's left or 4; allowing scum to fake-claim at that point.

A tracker, if we have one, typically does not see if a roleblocked person goes anywhere so the evidence there will be equivocal and pointless.

However, if we give them a rolecop with their janitor; then what happens? They get to whittle down who's a PR or not, only hurting themselves if they want to fake-claim eventually. They still only have the one NK; and they can't roleblock the PR from doing anything in that case. They have to deal with it; allowing townies to play their most pro-town game which is clearly beneficial for the sheer number of talented people in this game. It'll be incredibly difficult for scum to organize mislynches if townies are allowed to play with reckless abandon for the sake of the town.

[Amished]

*twiddles thumbs*

I'll... twiddle something else? >_>

[Amished]

@Tajo: I think I know why you think I'm scum, and you're wrong.

Vote: Hoopla

"learning how to read DGB" then bringing up the odds of it landing on DGB are incredibly weak reasons for suspicion. It's just as likely that it lands on anybody else; and the comment about how it was unlikely that they would've given us a hider just sounds like inside information to me.

Random suspicion to Troll and Ooba here.

[Amished]

@Hoopla: What? DGB obviously knew that we were claiming hider/not hider. With knowing that; how could she (I'm just gonna call dgb a she) NOT know why we're claiming? That's the biggest dance around the issue that I think I've ever seen.

[Amished]

@Tajo: No, I don't care to elaborate.

@MME: Who's scum?

[Amished]

zoraster: which is more scummy: defense of something that's anti-town (somewhat scummy) by another player, or an anti-town action by a lone player. That should give you enough information.

[Amished]

"Why?" ? Really? Read your "scrambled" post again.

Also, congrats on the pregnancy.

[Amished]

Current theory is that there are one or two hiders out there who were smart enough not to claim despite all the noise in the thread about them. I guess we'll see.

Yay, 2nd scum with Hoopla. Are you retarded? If a hider claimed, we wouldn't give the scum a roleblocker. Therefore, the only way that they can die is by lynching or hiding behind scum. If they claimed hider later in the game; after the hider claim that just happened, they would get lynched and stop being useful at all. Don't try to give yourself (or your scum buddies) a way to fake-claim a powerful role like that later on and thinking that you wouldn't get caught.

[Amished]

So zoraster: What was so anti-town about the gambit in your eyes?

[Amished]

So zoraster: What was so anti-town about the gambit in your eyes?

In my dreams, I'm seeing a tajo/Amished scumteam trying to whip up and exploit a tunneler.

Then wake up and see that I'm trying to understand what zoraster actually exactly means so if I disagree with him I know exactly how to convince him that he's wrong.

[Amished]

I'm so glad we're getting useful catchup posts from seraphim....

/sarcasm

[Amished]

I seem to recall having a moment of clarity before the game even started.. I think it went something like this:

I've definitely played with Pom, not sure about you, Plum.

I have 5 bucks saying VV will be the lynch D1 in 11 though >_>

@Kitty: Let's lynch Sotty D2 then? *cough cough*

Mostly because I figured that if he's town (which just general odds say so from pre-game) the scum would happen upon him eventually and a wagon would build. Especially with the other cast of characters in the game he's an especially easy target comparatively.

I for one will not support a VV wagon and anybody who does join it will fall under intense scrutiny in my (ever increasingly limited) playtime.

[Amished]

I've played 1 (maybe 2?) games with VV and I've known him to essentially be a wagon-y VI. I know it's not really based on anything he's done in game; but he's a prime target for small semantics arguments to lure over townies that are trying to move the game forward or anything; and scum to force a mislynch. When people are using wiki-tells against him (OMGUS/AtE come to mind) that really makes me suspect and I have no problem defending him.

The game that I was most sure of his alignment (NY111) was later on when multiple scum flips all attacked him pretty much throughout the game. The attacks remind me of the way he was attacked but I've only read through that game once and I could be off.

If people could explain why they feel the AtE or whatever else is scummy instead of saying "R U 4 REELZ YO?" (exaggerated) I might not have spoken up; but he's just too easy the way it's going right now.

[Amished]

The more I see, the more I agree with the Hero/KMD scumteam theory.

[Amished]

Glad to see you're town, PZ.

[Amished]

Awwww; I was so hoping that I was gonna be mafia-killed due to "playing like a PR". Sorry everyone.