Mad World: Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[KageLord]

Hey all, sorry it took so long for me to post after replacing in! Anyway, now I'm all caught up on the thread so far, but I have to say, it's a bit of a doosy. There are so many reads being noted that look just wrong to me. Plus the wagon on TheLonging and RC is a bit disconcerting. Just from having played with RC and seen some of his other games, I can't call anything he has done so far a tell either way (so I give him a null read right now). ckd, gandalf, and Magna all drew my attention as well, but not because they looked scummy. It might be a blessing in disguise for town that 2 of the angry or insulting players that I think were most likely to be mislynched (along with RC) have taken an NK for us.

Actually, what drew my attention in the "maybe scumtell" sort of way was Tasky's voting. He doesn't seem very confident with some of his votes (and he usually does in other games I've seen) and the reasons he gives are sometimes completely shallow. But, just this one thing isn't enough to get a vote or even FoS from me.

Anon also perked up my antennas a bit. He seemed to tunnel TheLonging for a good amount of his (Anon's) 8 posts. He kind of went off the radar for a bit then just posted one-liners about TheLonging with what seemed like certainty that TheLonging was scum (also the addition of gandalf to scum list for similar reasoning to the "town tell" from ckd). All of this isn't overtly scummy though, so I wait to see what Anon thinks now that TheLonging (and gandalf) has flipped town. I also want to see what Alpha Werewolf is thinking since he has posted even less, but says he is rereading and has suspects. I want to know who those suspects are and why.

The following are people that I have a null read on and want to see content from (including top suspects and why):

Alpha Werewolf
Anon
EMPKING (all caps because this one reaaaally should do this, haven't seen one ounce of reasoning yet)
I doubt it (was V/LA for a week, ending today, and I liked most of his posts so far, so I want to know his reads though I have more of a town read on him than null)
Zang (apparently V/LA for a few days (again) but still want to know this when he comes back)

[KageLord]

Kage, you sure gandalf flipped town?

also, other than being "angry and insulting" any other reads from me, I was confused by your post.

You got me there. I should have said he flipped not mafia.

And nope, I have a null read on you so far. Normally I would think something of the aggressiveness, but since it appears that is your usual playstyle, I can't really consider it a tell either way.

[KageLord]

Also where is Alphawerewolf?

MOD, PLEASE PROD/REPLACE.

AW seems to be somewhat prod dodging. He posted this earlier today (same page):

I've been busy for the last few days, rereading the thread now - I have a couple of suspects whom I'd like to read in-depth.

Unfortunately, he didn't mention who his suspects were or anything like that. Let's hope for some good input from him soon.

[KageLord]

VOTE: Tasky

Reiterating CKD's post. Tasky is scummy. RC is still pending his future post, but leaning on town.

So why do you think Tasky is scummy? I don't really have a problem with your vote, but I just want to know the reasoning behind it.

[KageLord]

Any specifics as to what specifically you got out of my ISO that has me on your probscum list other than the fact that I am overall a cautious player and didn't like an RVS wagon?

A cautious player is more likely to be scum. Can you cite examples of that cautious behavior in other games?

I'm not going to say anything else that might help digi against your case, but I just want to say that I really disagree with this statement. I am a pretty cautious player as both town and scum. Getting suspected for being cautious (just because that's your play style) when you're town is just annoying. I know from experience.

The rest of your post seems just dandy to me.

[KageLord]

@ Empking: why KL???

This.

A cautious player is more likely to be scum. Can you cite examples of that cautious behavior in other games?

this looks really far fetched... "cautious" is a playing style... being cautious doesn't increase the odds of getting a scum-role-PM

I agree with Tasky on this. While sometimes people do play more cautiously as scum, it can also be a person's style (I believe this since I do have a cautious playing style as both town and scum). So I consider cautiousness a null tell unless the person in question's meta shows them to be quite the opposite when they are town.

[KageLord]

Yikes, even after reading everything again, I couldn't find any solid reads. That still hasn't changed from the recent behavior. All I know is that I don't think the cases against Tasky, SF, or RC are strong. I also don't like his active lurking throughout, but I don't think that's enough to warrant another vote on that wagon. As for the old point about Shark and not knowing if someone was dead or not, I really don't see that as a scumtell (or a towntell either). Anyone can miss a part of a post, especially with these kinds of roles involved. And for Tasky... I don't even know what the actual case against him is.

One thing I'm wondering about:

Someone who has posted a full 14% of the posts in this game yet has told so little is very telling, and that's why I am strongly considering changing my vote back to him, and this time it would have nothing to do with his lurking and everything to do with the fact that he's acting pretty much exactly like stereotypical scum.

So what's stopping you from voting him?

[KageLord]

Yikes, even after reading everything again, I couldn't find any solid reads. That still hasn't changed from the recent behavior. All I know is that I don't think the

cases against Tasky, SF, or RC are strong

. I also don't like

his

active lurking throughout, but I don't think that's enough to warrant another vote on that wagon. As for the old point about Shark and not knowing if someone was dead or not, I really don't see that as a scumtell (or a towntell either). Anyone can miss a part of a post, especially with these kinds of roles involved. And for Tasky... I don't even know what the actual case against him is.

This post doesn't sit right with me. Considering the bolded pronoun "

his

" up there refers back to the italicized part of the previous sentence, it doesn't specify which player

his

is referring to. makes me think you original draft of that post only referred to the RC wagon rather than all 3, and the comments on the other were editted in but you forgot to specify which player the "his" pronoun referred to. Am I right?

Actually, I just forgot to put RC instead of "his". I didn't really read it over before submitting and realized only a while after submitting that I didn't specify who that "his" was. But yes, that "his" was meant to be about RC. I hoped people would just assume that since he was the famous active lurker in this game and I mention the other two after that.

Also, I might not be throwing votes and suspicion around left and right, but you haven't placed a vote at all since joining the game. If you don't like any of the current 3 wagons, do you think that they are being pushed along by scum? Who would be a better wagon, if even just for information?

No, I don't think the wagons are necessarily being pushed by scum. I mean, obviously scum are somewhere in one or more of the wagons, but I could see a lot of it being just hopeful town. If I had to pick a person to lynch right now though, I guess I would have to pick RC. I don't really think he's scum (but then again, I have no prob scum reads either), but getting rid of his active lurking might actually clear the way for some discussion, which usually leads to information. As it is now, not many people (myself included in the not) have really been saying much other than "vote so-and-so for my gut feeling or for some arbitrary reason". Up until now, I would say the way this game is going is perfect for scum. Even if someone is lynched, I don't see it bringing in a lot of information for us, no matter who they are. So, I would say RC as deadline approaches, but we do need to get more people talking beyond a couple sentences.

[KageLord]

SharkFinn
!This post is massively scummy. Mindless wagon to just go with the flow.
!Another post that seeems scummy to me. That makes SharkFinn 2 for 2.
!Massive backtrack from Karma's probing.
!Bail off one wagon and onto another, with no scum hunting. SharkFinn even discusses out loud which between RC and Zang which he'll wagon.
And another backtrack. Although this time, it was shown that his observation was flawed, so the backtrack here is less scummy than before. Still worth noting.
!Sheeps Alpha's point about RC's #147. If either of Alpha/Shark flip scum, we should look at the other.
*SharkFinn actually produces a post with original content. If/when Gandalf flips, this will be useful.
!And now he's voting dead players.
!Scum flailing.
!And another easy wagon vote from Shark. Seriously folks, this guy is scum-city.
!And now he is lurker hunting. This wagon is a go.

I chose this part of your post in particular to look at since he is one of the leading wagons right now and actually the one I was rethinking when you posted. Originally I thought most of the case against him was BS. For example, I still don't think that him voting the dead gandalf is a scumtell (or towntell). After looking at your first 2 points, I still saw some leeway for him to be just a bit newbie town wanting to seem important for being on a wagon, but combined with the 3rd point, it does seem like he is just jumping from wagon to wagon while always leaving the door open to jump back. He tries to move to TheLonging wagon for starting the Tasky wagon while still being able to go back to Tasky and say, "I never fully cleared him of suspicion for that." (and he later does go back to Tasky). He does the same kind of thing with RC, which is staying on the fence about him while checking out other wagons or going for lurkers.

I also want RC to stop active lurking though. I don't necessarily think he's scum for it (it's hard to tell, since he always seems to exhibit that no matter what his alignment is), but it's still anti-town. I wouldn't be too disappointed if he is the one lynched (though I don't intend to vote for him). Right now, I'm going for who I think is most scummy, not anti-town...

Vote: SharkFinn

[KageLord]

And KageLord, you have absolutely no room to talk, Mr. Maybe-I-can-replace-out-of-one-game-but-replace-into-two-others-and-hope-nobody-notices. So... I can active lurk all I want, and you can't say shiznikey.. I just had a daughter, have been gone for days, and I still have a bunch of games to catch up on, so some games are just gonna take hits in activity. Get off my nuts.

First, what 2 games? I'm only in 2 right now and I only replaced into this one (the other I was originally in). Second, I'll admit I flaked on the one you're referring to. I had screwed that one up enough already with that blown-out-of-proportion comment and just didn't have any muse to keep going with that. I'd rather not be a detriment to town. It's unfair. Third, you were active lurking way before your daughter arrived (congrats on that btw). Fourth, you continue to active lurk, which I see as worse than just lurking. If you have stuff going on irl or too many games to handle, either replace out or don't post random stuff that distracts people from the game. We are already having a tough enough time as it is getting usable information from everyone here. We don't need spam.

[KageLord]

Unvote!

I'm starting with that just to be sure that I don't forget to do it later. After Shark's claim, I was about 50-50 on whether he was faking or not, but I figure I will trust him for now until something leads me to believe he is lying. His explanation of his pick on Night 1 was a bit confusing and I could not tell why he would pick Zang, but it could easily be a town mistake.

I want to know more about Rhinox's role though. Specifically, do you find out anything other than flavor? Do you find out alignment/win conditions or anything like that? Also, I learned in the first non-newbie game I was in that scum are often given safeclaims or their identities are different from the expected alignment (Superman could turn out to be scum, for example). Would it be possible that this sort of trickery would basically render a flavor investigator role useless by them finding out only the safeclaim flavor or the switched alignment name or whatnot (note: this question is meant to be a general question to everyone, though I want to know what Rhinox thinks about it too)? And I still can't let Rhinox fully off even if I believe his claim. We still don't really know that his win condition is the same as town (instead of something different like gandalf's).

Finally, I'm quite surprised with the number of known power roles at this point. Is this normal? If we believe the claims of Shark and Rhinox, we have already found 4 power roles (I would say non-scum power roles, but we can't be sure that a role like Rhinox's couldn't be scum) out of the 5 reveals (and we know there are a few scum and at least one more Town Mason as well). If Rhinox and Shark are telling the truth and are actually on town's side, we might actually be in much deeper trouble now that both of them have claimed. In that case, two of our lead suspects would turn out to be wrong (meaning at least the majority of the scum have managed to stay mostly under the radar) and two of our power roles would be found out (and thus become possible scum targets). In the future, I think town power roles should wait until it's absolutely necessary to claim. L-3 with another L-3 wagon doesn't seem like great timing to me. It's not as if Rhinox would be hammered before he got a chance to post.

Anyway, what do we do about Rhinox's question at the end of his claim? Do we have him tell us who Clare is or just leave it a secret? I think my answer to this would depend on the majority of answers to my above question about the possibility of Rhinox's role being faked out by safeclaims/switched alignments. If you guys think something like that wouldn't affect Rhinox's role, I think we should have him reveal who it is. Scum already know who isn't on their side and I think it's unlikely that Clare would be a PR considering her role as a character. It could help clear up Rhinox a bit and possibly let us almost entirely clear someone else (again, dependent on the possibility of switched alignments).

Whatever the case may be, the recent claims have kind of thrown my scumlist out of whack, so I'll have to check out some people in ISO and revise it.

[KageLord]

Unvote

I just went back and looked for the Rhinox claim.

Yes, I would like to know who the Time Traveler's Wife is. Do you also learn her role and abilities, or just her flavour?

Just quoting in case rc is actually scum, of course he would want to know who she is

So does this mean you are against the idea of Rhinox revealing Clare?

[KageLord]

@RC, you calling me scummy is the pot calling the kettle black sir.

I may come off scummy, my wrong vote count, I was on my phone

Wanting to out another potential power role on day 2 isn't a sound idea, cause there probably isn't enough protection to go around. Forcing an out just gives mafia a choice of which role is more of a threat to them.

If the "wanting to out another potential power role" thing is about Clare, I'm not sure that applies. Rhinox said he can only find out flavor. So even if he found Clare, he wouldn't know if she even had a power or even if she was pro-town. So even if scum find out who Clare is this way, I don't see how that would put her in any additional danger (unless scum decide to go after her for some reason instead of the claimed PRs). That's just my two cents.

Anyone else have an opinion about this?

[KageLord]

Claim:

Archaeologist Professor Edward A. Johnston, a Time Traveler. I'm basically a flavor investigator. I know who is Clare, the Time Traveler's Wife. I can say who that player is and they can confirm I'm not lying, or I can keep that information secret for now... up to you guys what you want me to do.

This sounds like a scum power. Is town flavor cop common? Combine with Alpha's play yesterday, Rhinox's non-helpful questions, and the lurking, and I'm on board. Also, Anon's questions about why Alpha would target CML and Rhinox's admitting that it makes no sense makes this a pretty easy vote.

Unvote
Vote: Rhinox

SharkFinn and Robbnva are still scummy, in fact, I'm starting to lean more scummy on Robbnva than SharkFinn.

This post is the main one to ring bells for me recently. Unlike some of the posted opinions so far, I don't think this is bussing. Instead, I think this is just scum bandwagoning. From Shark (a major wagon) and Robbnva (easy target), LMP jumps to the wagon with probably the most steam right now. And to make it worse, I don't see anything new added to it or anything that would differentiate his vote from the others. The lurking and non-helpful questions especially seem like weak reasons for me in this game since I would say a large group of players are lurking and/or doing things that aren't helpful.

Also...

where are you getting Alpha targetting CML from?

Vote: LynchMePls

If he is lynched and flips scum, it may help change my view on Rhinox. But, for the moment, I don't want to lynch someone that has claimed a PR. I agree with many of you (and I did post this early on, as soon as I saw the claim) that the role may be a scum PR, but I would rather lynch someone that I believe is more probably scum first before deciding on Rhinox. After all, I'm not sure that his role would be that great an asset to scum (compared to a possible mystery power of his buddies). Obviously there would be some advantage in knowing peoples' flavors so you can guess if they have PRs, but as RC mentioned before, mods can make things purposely different than what you would think.

[KageLord]

also, Kage, why do you have a problem lynching a claimed PR this early? DO you feel that his claimed role is useful (not claimed)?

It is more that we aren't completely sure it's a scum role yet (even though it does seem likely), as opposed to a town role which might actually help us, and that even if it is, it doesn't seem as dangerous as a possible mystery power that his buddies could have. For example, if we believe him and LMP are scumbuddies and we know Rhinox's power, we still don't know if LMP has a more dangerous/useful for scum power. I would say that even a normal RB would be more useful than flavor cop. But, if it gets close to deadline and is apparent that LMP won't be lynched, I would probably be willing to change my vote to Rhinox.

[KageLord]

Nothing concrete on LMP (in otherwards I did not redirect him to any now dead players), but the nature of TimeTraveler/Non-TimeTraveler + possible nonkilling mafia doesnt by anymeans clear or kill clear him.

Could you remind me how your power works again? You redirect any action that LMP might do to someone else, but any action that would be done to him remains on him?

[KageLord]

Uhhhh... I dunno why they would claim. Unless LMP is some town role that successfully learned that Robbnva is scum, why would you want him to claim (assuming he's not scum)?

[KageLord]

I think Robb is VI. Could be SI, as his latest wild accusations are certainly a distraction, but I think we can find a better lynch.

KageLord, for example. Look at him ISO, he sat on the fence whole day yesterday, then tried to distract from Rhinox's lynch yesterday on both of the competing wagons, LMP and SharkFinn, and now he's back to fencesitting. Why do you think KageLord is town SharkFinn?

VOTE: KageLord

Sorry if you feel that I'm fencesitting, but that's just how my style comes off. I don't throw wild accusations around hoping that something sticks (not saying that's you, but that's a lot of people). If you don't believe me about that, you can check my meta (or ask RC).

As for "lurking", I don't really know what to say about that. This whole page (and more) took place in the matter of a day (not even 12 hours yet since the page started). I don't have the time to pop in every hour and post. I post when I have something useful that I want to say, not just to make random comments. Besides, the majority of our players could be accused of lurking (actively or not).

While on the subject though, RC's active lurking (which he obviously knew he was doing) is really starting to bug me. I was willing to overlook it earlier, but I keep having the nagging thought about how stupid I would feel if he turns out to be scum (skating through into the later game while actively lurking and admitting to it). I think it's pressure vote time. 75% for policy, 25% for scumminess.

Vote: ReaperCharlie

[KageLord]

Robbnva really is suprised nobody else commented on his observation he made earlier

It isn't a restriction, if that is what you're curious about.

Mafuyu does agree that 793 doesn't come off right at all. Jumping off the fence only because someone's attempting to bring attention to it is dodging the radar and attempting to please for the sake of pleasing. Additionally, LMP's lurker-deflection argument.

Vote Kagelord

So how do you explain your previous lurking and your fencesitting again? Is it just me or is this your second vote? You do realize that I have voted more than you have (and the other times didn't have someone bringing attention to it, as far as I can recall), right?

As for the "lie", LMP, I wasn't using the speed of the thread as an excuse for lurking. It was meant to point out that clearly time between posts may be different than the post numbers might have you think. But, you are right that I was lurking in that case. I honestly did not remember the last time I had posted when I made that post. I had been reading the thread, but apparently I didn't have much of an opinion on what was happening or I wanted to see certain questions answered. When have you seen me "really chatty and engaged" though? And yes, obviously I am deflecting by pointing out other lurkers. But does that make it any less true? If you want to use "lurking" as a case against anyone, you have to use that same criteria on everyone. So, the only ones not looking scummy by that criteria would probably be LMP, Robbnva, SF, and ckd.

[KageLord]

Then why are you?

That implies that one of the two are true. Mafuyu doesn't see the first, and isn't doing the second.

... Well you are doing the first since you're voting me.

[KageLord]

I do buy it. What I don't buy is RC not buying it. I think I'll keep my vote where it is for now.

[KageLord]

ckd, do you think LMP is not a cop at all or that he's another scum cop? If you think he's not a cop at all, you think he is just another scum PR?

[KageLord]

that is an interesting question Kage....not sure where it is coming from.

I think LMP is lying, I dont have any thoughts about what type of scum he is.

are you saying you believe the claim given his actions/posts during the day before his "claimed" investigation at night?

I will grant you that his actions/posts before his investigation make his choice strange and his recent defense hasn't really helped his case in my eyes, but I am always hesitant to immediately lynch claimed PRs. Anyway, I don't really see the payoff for him to pick those people in particular to say he targeted them. If he was fakeclaiming, couldn't he just name any two people as his previous targets and say he got 'innocent'? I don't know who would claim that they're not town to prove him wrong. Plus, if he ended up getting lynched afterward and flipped scum not-cop, we would probably suspect those people he named first since it would seem like a decent plan for him to just name his scumbuddies as his previous targets and have them say they were town.

Since he is a PR anyway, SF could control who he targets at night. And we know at least that he's not the NKer for scum since Robbnva is still alive.

[KageLord]

kage, do you take Shark's word for his claim?

I believe that Shark is a redirector, but not necessarily that his alignment is town. I suppose I'll have a look at him in ISO and then see what alignment comes to mind.

[KageLord]

CKD: Can we lynch Mafuyu then, if not LMP. I dont like either player at the moment. And a lynch is good when I have a 100% chance of hitting scum between Mafuyu and LMP.

Why do you say "100%"? Is there a reason that you find it absolutely impossible that both are town?

[KageLord]

The list of people you mentioned is actually the same as mine if you replace Robbnva with RC. As for Shark, I consider him a suspect, but I wouldn't put him in the lead. I can't find anything that would considerably point to him being another scum PR.

Also, if you believe LMP's claim (explaining why he's not on your list), then Robbnva is very likely town since that's the result LMP got on him. The only other way would be insanity or some investigation-proof scum role.

[KageLord]

If you want some Empking meta, read POWERFUL WIZARD MAFIA. He played just as scummy, but was town. I was very disappointed that he wasn't the last scum. I correctly picked out the other two, but we got owned by a SuperTownie scum (Parama). But he acted at least as scummy in that game as he's acting in this game. And as far as I'm aware, he does it in every game.

And even if he didn't have that meta, he'd still be a terrible lynch, because lynching him will tell us

NOTHING

.

1. If you were town and thought SharkFinn was a scum redirector who was going to redirect our claimed cop, you'd be voting SharkFinn.
2. You aren't voting SharkFinn. You're voting Empking, who just happens to be the biggest wagon, but is also a TERRIBLE lynch candidate.
3. Ergo, I'm voting you.

THE GAUNTLET HAS BEEN THROWN.

Lynch Robbnva, pl0x.

First of all, if you're going to try to lynch Robbnva, why not lynch LMP first? He claimed his investigation said Robbnva is town. So if you think Robbnva is scum, you think LMP is very very likely scum (as ckd, I think, said having insanity issues with our cop while scum had such PRs already seems like overkill) too. The only difference is that LMP is very probably a PR (even if you don't believe he's a cop). Why wouldn't you lynch the scum PR first if you're so sure about Robbnva?

Interesting meta. I'm never sure what to think about stuff like that though. Being scummy in every game just means that when they're actually scum, they have the perfect meta excuse for looking scummy. I don't put that much stock into meta when it's about VIs/SIs.

You keep saying that lynching Emp will tell us nothing, but whose lynch do you suggest will tell us something? Robbnva's (probable townie's) lynch will tell us LMP's likely alignment (though not confirmed since if Robbnva flips scum he could still claim insanity or SF lied about who he redirected to or something). So in the end that would tell us nothing concrete. Besides, if LMP was telling the truth and Robbnva's flip was town, LMP would be the likely NK target and if not stopped, we'd be out a cop and a confirmed townie. Also Emp's lynch, like potentially anyone else's, might tell us something really important: that we have killed another scum and are one step closer to a win. So I don't buy that "telling us nothing" excuse.

It does intrigue me though that this is how you are playing (defending scumminess and attacking probable town) when you become active.

[KageLord]

1. Never lynch a claimed cop right away. That's one of the hardest fakeclaims to fake, given that you have to provide results every night from then on. If scum NK him, oh well, at least we won't have wasted a lynch.

2. Robbnva is probtown?

3. Do you honestly think that I would come into the game and get 'active' all of a sudden just to defend a scumbuddy (empking?). What, you think I'm stupid?

4. If Empking flips town, what then? Am I confirmed town to you then? Or do you think I'm just hopping in as scum to defend him because I know he'll flip town, which would make me look townier? Why wouldn't I just quicklynch him instead? WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM.

Point is, I'm active now, and I'm saying that Robbnva gets the rope.

1. I generally agree. But because of that, I also tend to believe his investigations (i.e. Robbnva town) for at least 1 day.

2. He's very probtown if you believe LMP's claim. If you don't believe it... I'd say he's kind of in limbo.

3. No, I don't think you're stupid. But I am automatically suspicious of stuff like that. There's a possibility that you are coming in to defend a scumbuddy because you think he is likely to get lynched, leaving you, who was just active lurking until now. That would put scum in a really bad position, so I wouldn't be surprised if even smartscum put their neck on the line a bit and tried to defend their remaining buddy. Anyway, that's just a possibility.

4. I wouldn't say it makes you town, but a bit less suspicious. On the other hand, if he flips scum, you become a whole lot more suspicious. Unfortunately, it's kind of unbalanced against you.

[KageLord]

Yikes. Deadline approaching. With that in mind, I guess I have to pick a wagon. Considering I believe LMP's claim, the choice is kind of obvious.

Vote: Empking

[KageLord]

God, this is messed up. So many PRs... somehow I think if we had a massclaim D1 we could have figured out a way to pretty much forcibly win. I'll claim a little later. I'm just waiting on a question to the mod first.

The question on why LMP didn't die is a good one. Actually, my first thought on seeing the flips was why LMP wasn't even targeted. I wouldn't have been too surprised at a no kill or 1 kill, thinking that we might have a doc who saved the cop, but this is a doozy.

[KageLord]

Yes, that seems pretty likely. After I make my claim, we can see how many PRs we can confirm and see who is left to possibly be SK.

[KageLord]

Oh LMP:

Well, my role-blocking of LMP last night means that at least he didn't attempt to use his killing action last night, if he IS scum. Unless he's scum with SharkFinn, in which case they could have coordinated this whole thing... but that's a pretty long shot. The only way it makes sense if LMP is scum, is if he's a scum rolecop, otherwise there's pretty much no way he'd have known that he'd been blocked, by receiving a 'no-result'.

Ergo, LMP is either a legit town cop or a scum rolecop.

He is not the SK, if there is one.

As I had said before, I fully think he is a town cop. I don't think it would make much sense to have another scum cop anyway. Agreed that he is not SK.

[KageLord]

God, this is messed up. So many PRs... somehow I think if we had a massclaim D1 we could have figured out a way to pretty much forcibly win. I'll claim a little later. I'm just waiting on a question to the mod first.

The question on why LMP didn't die is a good one. Actually, my first thought on seeing the flips was why LMP wasn't even targeted. I wouldn't have been too surprised at a no kill or 1 kill, thinking that we might have a doc who saved the cop, but this is a doozy.

Suggesting I wasn't even targeted is really interesting KageLord. Mafuyu was redirected, and the person she was redirected to died. Seems likely to me that Mafuyu tried to kill me and failed. The kill flavor used on Empking also suggests SK. So the question then would be "why didn't the mafia target me". There are several plausible answers to this:

1) They trusted the SK to do it.
2) They have a GF or other blocker/redirector, so they don't fear me.
3) They were afraid of watcher/protector on me.

So my question to KL is why do you assume I wasn't targeted, given the fact that we have a town redirector. How do you know Mafuyu didn't target me?

I took it for granted that Mafuyu wasn't lying about that, but I suppose you are right that she could have targeted you as SK and been redirected. I find her claim odd though for a fakeclaim, unless it was given by the mod.

1) I don't think that's the case. SK investigation usually gives town result, doesn't it? If so, no need to kill the cop. Actually, might be better off not doing it if the cop can say he's town in the thread.

2) Possible. Multiple blockers/redirectors in one game though? I suppose with the number of PRs, it's not too much of a stretch.

3) More likely.
___________________________________________

Hold on just one sec on the vig though (just long enough for Mafuyu's answer on this question). You said you could make someone a vig, right? Do they only get notified that they have become a vig at night or can you make it happen on this day?

Nice find though, SF. I don't know what that could mean though. If digi's claiming dayvig, he is pretty obviously not lying (since he will probably have to use it today). It really doesn't seem like a scum role. But why is his killflavor practically the same (maybe his doesn't say 'simply') as scum? I honestly have no clue. I'll wait on the "shot dead" until after crypto claim. And as I said, we'll have to wait on mine until I get an answer from the mod about my technical question.

[KageLord]

Alright, I got my answer. Here is my almost full claim:

Tim from Braid
Time-Traveler

One-shot Doc (used on LMP N3)
One-shot ?
One-shot Tracker (used on LMP N2)
One-shot JK

I didn't use anything N1 since I didn't have much information to go on at that point and didn't want to waste a power. Night 2 was kind of a bust as SF redirected LMP anyway (my result was LMP ---> Robbnva), though it did pretty much confirm to me that he was actually cop. Night 3 seemed like when LMP would be targeted for the kill, so he seemed like an obvious choice to protect. I still haven't used my JK and I have one other ability that I will choose not to reveal at this point. That one could be a big pain in the ass for scum tonight. Knowing it now would only help them and would do nothing to help town. Anyone that asks me to reveal it will be looking hella scummy. All I can say is that I've never seen this kind of power before and if it's blocked, it will be revealed that it was blocked in-thread the next day by the mod (I had to ask the mod if it was revealed by him even if I was dead). If I'm alive tomorrow or it's revealed that I was blocked, we will know our scum and SK.

Anyway, I'm surprised at how this is going recently. LMP, SF, and digi, how sure are you that RC is town? I can see why you might be suspicious of Mafuyu (but again that claim makes it seem less likely to me that Mafuyu is scum), but go back through the posts of the day and read with the mindset that it's possible RC is scum. His claim of RB at this point is pretty much confirmed by LMP's no result. As far as I've seen RB is just as popular (if not more so) as a scum role. And as it is going right now, how could this be better for RC-scum? He's leading town by the nose when he finally becomes active (no suspicion there?). With the exception of crypto, he now knows everyone's role, which is perfect for a scum RB. He can tell if there's someone he should be blocking instead of LMP. The only plus for town here is that if RC is scum, he'll have to leave LMP alive another night thanks to my mystery power (unless he wants to let me out him tomorrow by blocking me or leaving me alive).

[KageLord]

Some excellent points there, LMP. For me right now, the main ones on the suspect block for me are RC, Mafuyu, and crypto in that order. I wouldn't be too disappointed with using the vig on Mafuyu though.

crypto is only up there for the moment because he is nowhere to be found. After he claims, his position will probably change.

[KageLord]

I'm not scum though, so don't bother wasting your noggin-juice thinking it.

lol I am sure this is a statement that we can unconditionally trust.

[KageLord]

This was during D3 after I claimed the actions...

You keep saying that lynching Emp will tell us nothing, but whose lynch do you suggest will tell us something? Robbnva's (probable townie's) lynch will tell us LMP's likely alignment (though not confirmed since if Robbnva flips scum he could still claim insanity or

SF lied about who he redirected to or something

). So in the end that would tell us nothing concrete. Besides, if LMP was telling the truth and Robbnva's flip was town, LMP would be the likely NK target and if not stopped, we'd be out a cop and a confirmed townie. Also Emp's lynch, like potentially anyone else's, might tell us something really important: that we have killed another scum and are one step closer to a win. So I don't buy that "telling us nothing" excuse.

It does intrigue me though that this is how you are playing (defending scumminess and attacking probable town) when you become active.

What the fuck...

You just confirmed me, yet you still thought I was scum!??!?!?! >_> >_> >_>

Pretty much that either means me and LMP are scum together or town. It cant be one or the other.

KL, why did you not confirm me when you could have. That would have cleared me and Robbnva yesterday.

I confirmed your role and action, not your alignment. You could just as easily be scum redirector at that point. And then, I didn't want to risk getting caught as a PR (I still planned on using my doc protect in peace), which would have saved us from a kill last night had scum gone after LMP. I suppose I could have come out and said just the first part of the role and pretended there was nothing else, but that only would have led to trouble at a position like this, when I clearly have more to tell (and in which case people would say I lied and therefore am scum). So, basically, my night action only confirmed LMP's alignment in my eyes, not yours. And the bold doesn't really mean much since I was just trying to convince RC to not go after Robbnva (who I was almost 100% certain was town) using information

he

knew.

Anyway, since attention seems to be turning toward me at this point, I'd just like to give my thoughts at this point in case I'm not around D5 (or for the rest of D4).

Reads and Reasoning

crypto - Prob SK. I was going to wait on this until his claim, but since it is looking less and less likely that he will get in here any time soon, I figure I might as well put this out there right now. If you believe at least the part of my claim that confirms LMP and SF, the only unconfirmed roles are Mafuyu, me, digi (soon will be confirmed if we dayvig), and crypto. I know I'm a town PR (and if I wasn't a PR, I don't know why I would confirm SF's role), so I obviously won't count myself. Mafuyu could be SK since we don't have a confirmed example of Mafuyu's role being used yet, but I doubt it strongly. The main reason I doubt it is the flavor Mafuyu mentioned, which sounds plausible and bears a striking resemblance to Ghost Writer's death scene. I could easily believe that came from the mod. The only question then is whether it's a safeclaim or not and that JOAT claim really doesn't seem like a safeclaim given my powers. So, crypto is the logical remaining choice. The only other problem I could see is if digi is SK with additional powers. I read on the wiki that SKs are sometimes given other abilities to help with balance (and an SK in this game could certainly use some, dayvig being quite a fitting one for SK). However, I view it as a very slight possibility.

LMP - Town cop. Numerous testimonies (mine, RC, and SF) point strongly to this. I don't think I'll get arguments on this one.

RC - #1 scum suspect RB. Looking at all of his play today, how could you not see a possible scum motivation? The one who comes out of active lurking to take the lead of town (do this or you'll be lynched and alliance-building) and forcefully says it's time for mass claim... plus he's RB who blocked our cop last night. Now I voiced concerns earlier as to why LMP wasn't targeted for the kill. LMP did give fair reasons as possibilities, which could make sense (including the possibility that Mafuyu-scum did target him but was redirected to the one that died). But the main reason that comes to my mind: why kill the cop when you can RB him? So the main two possibilities are that Mafuyu-scum is lying about the claim and attempted to kill LMP, but was redirected and forced to kill Emp or RC-scum is indeed RB and purposely blocked the cop (it still doesn't jive with me why a town RB would block claimed cop at that point) while killing someone else.

Mafuyu - #2 scum suspect. As I said before, it's unlikely to me, but still the second strongest possibility I see. The points LMP listed are pretty damning, which is why I said I wouldn't be disappointed with Mafuyu being dayvigged (and if Mafuyu flipped town, I would hope to get RC lynched, almost 100% certainly hitting scum in my eyes). The thing is, much of Mafuyu's case could be blamed on just poor use of Mafuyu's PR (as could mine, I suppose).

SF - Unknown redirector. He's kind of the wild card for me. He has crossed the town-scum read line for me so many times that it's becoming a blur. If absolutely forced, I would say he is my 3rd scum suspect, but it is a very far 3rd. I will confirm his claim of redirector though and his N2 action on LMP.

My strong recommendation: I really want to see RC dayvigged here. Like really badly. I am this close to saying if he flips town then lynch me. Actually, if it wouldn't be lylo, I think I am okay with saying that. I'll risk my life in this game on that outcome. Up for it?

[KageLord]

Also, is there the possibility that the anomaly NK flavor was Budja's flavor text? And SF, what makes you say that only Budja could make the kill (considering he was mafia-isolated)?

[KageLord]

KL: The fact he could have confirmed LMP and myself make me rethink things. (LMP inspected Anon, I redirected to Robbnva, only way that either of us is scum is together)

Could you please explain this to me? You said it before too, but I don't follow. Why couldn't you be scum and he be town?

And yes, I could have confirmed LMP, but at the cost of outing myself as a PR and either having to full claim (getting rid of my mystery power's potency tonight) or lying and half-claiming, getting myself into big trouble at this point, where I would either have to withhold info from town (bad) or come clean and prob get mislynched for lying (bad). If it came down to LMP about to get lynched D3, I would have saved him. But it didn't, so there was no need.

btw don't bother daykilling me. you're a newb if you do.

i've already claimed town RB and I proved the RB. now you just have to make the stretch to believe i'm town.

which is not really a stretch.

So please explain to us in the slow part of the class why you are more likely to be town than scum.

[KageLord]

FoS: ReaperCharlie

[KageLord]

lol the voting might actually end in a tie (unless a crypto replacement pops in and gives his two cents) since RC has said Mafuyu and digi has said he's thinking RC. In the end, shouldn't the one who is actually doing it have final say in the case of a tie?

[KageLord]

I like how Kagelord is so eager to get rid of me. Hmmm.....

Of course I am. You are super scummy and haven't given a reason for us to think you're town. And just so you know, digi said earlier that he wanted you for his vig too, that make him suspiciously eager?

LMP and SF, why not RC? I realize that you have your votes on Mafuyu for a reason (though SF is kinda hedging with 3 suspects, none of which are RC), but what do you think about the possibility of RC-scum? Do you think it is just impossible or not as likely as Mafuyu-scum or me-scum or what? LMP, you have said that you think RC-scum is certainly a possibility, but Mafuyu-scum just seems like more of a sure deal. Does that mean you would be willing to lynch RC pending the Mafuyu flip, if Mafuyu is vigged?

SF, you kind of claimed your suspects in order in your last post, but I'm surprised crypto made your list over RC. In one of your earlier posts all you said about RC was that it's odd he's contributing and RB is a possible scum role so you're unsure. How does that still make him more town than crypto, who hasn't said/done anything (obviously because he is gone, not lurking)? What quality of what RC has said/done do you find redeeming?

[KageLord]

Oh LMP:

Well, my role-blocking of LMP last night means that at least he didn't attempt to use his killing action last night, if he IS scum. Unless he's scum with SharkFinn, in which case they could have coordinated this whole thing... but that's a pretty long shot. The only way it makes sense if LMP is scum, is if he's a scum rolecop, otherwise there's pretty much no way he'd have known that he'd been blocked, by receiving a 'no-result'.

Ergo, LMP is either a legit town cop or a scum rolecop.

He is not the SK, if there is one.

This too. Apparently RC is now under the impression that LMP is a second scum cop.

[KageLord]

KL: what did you do N1? What are the role flavor names of your actions?

As I said before in my claim, I didn't perform an action N1. I replaced into this game in the middle of N1 actually, so I just used the time to read up on the thread and decided I didn't have enough info or enough of a read to use a power. Since they're one-time things, I decided it would be a waste at that point.

I don't want to even come close to risking "quoting" my role PM, so if you want to know that, you can check the wikipedia page for the Braid video game. My action names are the names of the middle 4 worlds (under Gameplay).

[KageLord]

Finishing a reread of today's play, and I saw this in one of KL's posts:

crypto - Prob SK. I was going to wait on this until his claim, but since it is looking less and less likely that he will get in here any time soon, I figure I might as well put this out there right now. If you believe at least the part of my claim that confirms LMP and SF, the only unconfirmed roles are Mafuyu, me, digi (soon will be confirmed if we dayvig), and crypto. I know I'm a town PR (and if I wasn't a PR, I don't know why I would confirm SF's role), so I obviously won't count myself. Mafuyu could be SK since we don't have a confirmed example of Mafuyu's role being used yet, but I doubt it strongly. The main reason I doubt it is the flavor Mafuyu mentioned, which sounds plausible and bears a striking resemblance to Ghost Writer's death scene. I could easily believe that came from the mod. The only question then is whether it's a safeclaim or not and that JOAT claim really doesn't seem like a safeclaim given my powers. So, crypto is the logical remaining choice. The only other problem I could see is if digi is SK with additional powers. I read on the wiki that SKs are sometimes given other abilities to help with balance (and an SK in this game could certainly use some, dayvig being quite a fitting one for SK). However, I view it as a very slight possibility.

I think your line of thinking here is really good, but then you diverge and come to the conclusion that crypto is the SK, which I think is the wrong conclusion.

If we follow your logic that the only unconfirmed roles are Mafuyu, KL, digi and crypto, and then we eliminate digi (because he is about to dayvig) and we eliminate you (just using your logic for the moment, plus I believe your claim) that leaves Mafuyu and crypto. Now, your points about both are valid, but think about this. You've narrowed the SK down to two people, one of which was redirected to the SK's kill! Isn't that pretty much the essence of a smoking gun? After you eliminate all the suspects down to two, you then learn that one of them targeted the player killed by the SK. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

That's not saying that crypto can't be scum, but the SK almost has to be Mafuyu. I do have one question though, why did you leave RC off your list? I'm pretty sure if Mafuyu isn't SK, then RC is.

The reason I left RC off the list (and the reason I picked crypto over Mafuyu despite the 'smoking gun') is that as far as I'm aware, SKs usually don't have any major powers other than the kill. Since we know RC is an RB (I didn't mention him in my post since, as far as I'm concerned, his block of LMP is confirmed), I figured it is highly unlikely that he is also SK. I explained why I didn't think Mafuyu was it (unless JOAT SK is a possibility). The only other possibility to me was Dayvig SK Digi... but I didn't think it likely. So the order of my SK suspicion would be: crypto, digi, Mafuyu. But, if you think JOAT SK is a possibility, it would probably be: Mafuyu, crypto (until a replacement arrives and claims), digi.

[KageLord]

I still think RC is town. Mafuyu scum, KL scum. Crypto scum.

... You think 5 scum, no SK?

[KageLord]

By the way, when do you plan on answering my questions?

[KageLord]

Well... that is honestly a shocking result. But before I vote for the 'smoking gun', SF, can you answer my questions now? If you can be proven town by LMP being town, what are you waiting for?

[KageLord]

KL: I've answered them before. Read carefully.

Also, it's obvious that Mafuyu is scum now, so just lynch her. Or be held accountable as her scumbuddy

I just checked your ISO and no, you haven't. My questions:

1. What made you say Budja was the only one that could have NKed, given Budja was mafia-isolated?

2. How does LMP being town make you town?

If Mafuyu flips town can we hold you accountable as her enemyscum? Anyway, as I said before, Mafuyu is where I believe my vote belongs right now, but there is no point in rushing. A shorter day only benefits scum at this point. Not to mention, we have a replacement who needs to read 47 pages. Let's give Faraday a chance to read up and in the meantime we can look back ourselves to see if we see any new tells given the flips we already have and the roles we already know.

Also, from looking at two separate posts of yours, you say there is a 4 max scum team and you later call out 3 people (Mafuyu, me, and crypto) as scum. Since we have 2 scum already flipped, that means you now believe in 5 scum. The only way all of this makes sense is if you think me and Mafuyu are scum with the already flipped and crypto is solo second scum team (in this case, why wouldn't he be SK?). Is that correct?

LMP, Mafuyu, and digi, how likely do you think it is that we are in lylo (essentially) right now? There are 6 players remaining and 2 already dead flipped scum. We also know there's an SK about. If you believe that the scum team has 4 people, we are in lylo (essentially) right now. I say essentially because, technically, I think if we mislynch a townie there is still the possibility that the SK kills a scum at night. Or... does the game just end if we have even numbers with scum (mislynched townie with 4 person scum team means 2 townies, SK, 2 scum)? Personally, I'm not sure that there is a 4 person scum team given the SK, but still a possibility?

[KageLord]

Kl's a dayvig. That's kinda obv

O.o Is this before or after my claim?

Why would the scum possibly quicklynch here?

On the off-chance that Mafuyu is town, scum probably would like that quite a bit (and especially if there's a 4 person scum team, where they win if we mislynch).

[KageLord]

And run the numbers, a town lynch doesn't automatically guarantee a scum victory unless there's a 4 man scum team + traitor. And that, quite frankly isn't going to happen with a competent mod like ooba.

Right now we have 6 players. If you believe that the scum team has 4 people, it's 3 town, 2 scum, 1 SK. Therefore, lynching town brings us even with scum in terms of numbers, which means scum victory, doesn't it?

I just checked your ISO and no, you haven't. My questions:

1. What made you say Budja was the only one that could have NKed, given Budja was mafia-isolated?

2. How does LMP being town make you town?

LMP, digi, and Mafuyu, do you think we could pressure SF to actually answer these questions?

[KageLord]

KL: I've answered them before. Read carefully.

Also, it's obvious that Mafuyu is scum now, so just lynch her. Or be held accountable as her scumbuddy

I just checked your ISO and no, you haven't.

Look carefully Im pretty sure I did, but fine scum, Ill answer your questions

My questions:

1. What made you say Budja was the only one that could have NKed, given Budja was mafia-isolated?

Most realistic scenario of me being scum is me being with LMP at this point (at least in my POV). If I was on a team with LMP, then only Budja could have made the NK; therefore we must be clean

2. How does LMP being town make you town?

See Above

If Mafuyu flips town can we hold you accountable as her enemyscum?

Nope, Mafuyu is the most likely scum at this point. You, Faraday, and Digi are the last of my suspects (in that order)

Anyway, as I said before, Mafuyu is where I believe my vote belongs right now, but there is no point in rushing. A shorter day only benefits scum at this point. Not to mention, we have a replacement who needs to read 47 pages. Let's give Faraday a chance to read up and in the meantime we can look back ourselves to see if we see any new tells given the flips we already have and the roles we already know.

Like the fact that RC flipping town was expected on my end. Like killing Mafuyu could have gotten rid of a kill if he was sk.

Also, from looking at two separate posts of yours, you say there is a 4 max scum team and you later call out 3 people (Mafuyu, me, and crypto) as scum. Since we have 2 scum already flipped, that means you now believe in 5 scum. The only way all of this makes sense is if you think me and Mafuyu are scum with the already flipped and crypto is solo second scum team (in this case, why wouldn't he be SK?). Is that correct?

Yep. Totally saying that. Totally saying that there are 3 town left and 3 scum left. >_>. Which is why Im still debating on Digi at this point. He's role proven. Only chance is him being sk.

LMP, Mafuyu, and digi, how likely do you think it is that we are in lylo (essentially) right now? There are 6 players remaining and 2 already dead flipped scum. We also know there's an SK about. If you believe that the scum team has 4 people, we are in lylo (essentially) right now. I say essentially because, technically, I think if we mislynch a townie there is still the possibility that the SK kills a scum at night. Or... does the game just end if we have even numbers with scum (mislynched townie with 4 person scum team means 2 townies, SK, 2 scum)? Personally, I'm not sure that there is a 4 person scum team given the SK, but still a possibility?

Why are you trying to hide one of your teammembers?

If these are your ideas of answers, they're kind of worthless. The question is WHY.

"I'm town because I think I have to be because LMP is" is not a reason. Why do you think you are confirmed town if LMP is? Why couldn't the scumteam be you and digi or you and Mafuyu or you and me or you and crypto?

LMP and digi, do you think SF is confirmed town?

Frankly, when I asked those questions I assumed SF would give a logical answer and that would just cement a probtown read, but so far all of this has only made him scummier in my eyes. My read order until SF answers the above (scummiest first): Mafuyu, SF, crypto, digi, LMP.

And lol

Also,

Im not wrong

.

If I am

, I still have KL and Faraday

Kind of contradictory right there. The first part is 100% certain. The second part defies that certainty. Being certain and then hedging doesn't inspire much confidence.

[KageLord]

Note: The first sentence was directed at your answers for 1 and 2.

Also, for the record, I'm going to spend tomorrow (real-time, not in-game) ISOing everyone that's still alive to see if I can pick anything new up. I suggest that everyone does the same before D4 is up (or at least ISO your biggest scum suspects).

[KageLord]

If these are your ideas of answers, they're kind of worthless. The question is WHY.

Because I am

"I'm town because I think I have to be because LMP is" is not a reason. Why do you think you are confirmed town if LMP is? Why couldn't the scumteam be you and digi or you and Mafuyu or you and me or you and crypto?

I explained how I am, which explains why. Do you seriously think me and Mafuyu are a scumteam??? I'm laughing so hard. Also, refusing to answer further, for I feel as though you plan to manipulate my statements further to throw off the village.

Alrighty then.

LMP and digi, sorry to keep bugging you with questions about me vs. SF, but I just want to know the stands of the two that seem the most town right now (especially since if it comes down to voting later, it's good to know who is where). What do you think of this interchange? To me, all it reads as is, "I really don't have a reason why LMP being town makes me town, so I refuse to answer." Agree or disagree?

[KageLord]

LMP and digi, do you think SF is confirmed town?

No he certainly isn't confirmed town. The mafia didn't try to kill me last night. One possible reason for that is SF is a mafia-redirector so they see me as an asset and not a liability (if they can get me to confirm scum or get guilty on townie its good for them).

That said, I don't think it's likely, I actually am leaning town. After all, he came forward and admitted he redirected me to Robbnva. He had no obligation to do that, unless he was setting himself up as town-redirector. Certainly possible, but right now I'm leaning more towards town. As others pointed out, the scum have been pretty strong this game (a scum rolecop + scum doctor), so the town needed some power, and a town redirector would certainly fit the bill.

Fair point. I personally think there is every chance he brought up Robbnva first to set himself up as town-redirector, but I can see how that could be legitimately town too. As for the balance, I don't know how much we should speculate, but:

Rolecop + Isolated Traitor Doctor + Redirector (+?)

SK

RB + Sane Cop + Oneshot Dayvig/Bulletproof + Oneshot Doctor/JK/?/Tracker + Inventor + Lovers

(which could be seen as anti-town PRs)

It seems balanced enough to me this way (especially considering your explanation of possible Redirector interactions with Cop). On the other hand, I see it as still balanced enough if you bring the Redirector to town and change the Inventor to a ? for scum (assuming the ? is still some sort of decent power).

[KageLord]

Alrighty then.

LMP and digi, sorry to keep bugging you with questions about me vs. SF, but I just want to know the stands of the two that seem the most town right now (especially since if it comes down to voting later, it's good to know who is where). What do you think of this interchange? To me, all it reads as is, "I really don't have a reason why LMP being town makes me town, so I refuse to answer." Agree or disagree?

Hey scum, stop trying to manipulate the villagers. Why don't you let them make their own decisions, rather than force them to. Now, please just vote Mafuyu if you think she's scum. Thanks.

I asked "agree or disagree". How is that forcing them/manipulating them? I am letting the other townies make their own decisions (i.e. agree or disagree). Seriously, your late game attitude toward everything I say is disconcerting. I guess I know who my first ISO will be.

And what is up with your continued insistence on me voting Mafuyu quickly? I explained how I think that is better for scum (no rebuttal from you, as I recall) and still you push for it.

[KageLord]

LMP and digi, sorry to keep bugging you with questions about me vs. SF, but I just want to know the stands of the two that seem the most town right now (especially since if it comes down to voting later, it's good to know who is where). What do you think of this interchange? To me, all it reads as is, "I really don't have a reason why LMP being town makes me town, so I refuse to answer." Agree or disagree?

I agree that he doesn't have a solid reason why me being town makes him town, but I disagree that he is refusing to answer. He is trying to explain to you why he thinks it makes him town. You just disagree with his conclusion. How is this refusing to answer?

@KL: What exactly is wrong with a Mafuyu lynch?

What is his explanation that I disagree with? I would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me his explanation.

His only provided explanation that I know of was "LMP targeted Anon, I redirected him to Robbnva. We can only be scum together or not at all." I'm asking him how that works.

Nothing is wrong with a Mafuyu lynch ending the day. What's wrong with it happening right now is that we have a replacement that still hasn't completely finished reading the thread and ending the day quickly gives us no bonus. It is guaranteed that we cannot win the game today, even if we lynch scum (since we know there are 2 NKers). I think we should be using this time wisely so we don't have to cram all of the scumhunting into tomorrow. If the end result will be the same, what's the rush?

[KageLord]

SharkFinn ISO

ISO 0-4: RVS and following up on RVS vote.

Null tell.

ISO 5-6: Takes someone else's quote and pins it on RC, voting him. Later realizes mistake and unvotes.

This could easily be a town mistake. Mostly null tell.

ISO 7-10:

Null.

ISO 11: ISOs and votes gandalf.

Even though we know the result, there were some pretty good points. Town tell.

ISO 12: Votes the dead gandalf.

There was a bunch of debate over whether this was a town tell or scum tell. To me, it's null.

ISO 13-15:

Null.

ISO 16: Although he lined up RC and Karma as suspects in his last post, follows ckd again (ckd originally started the case on gandalf) and votes Tasky also saying he's leaning town on RC though nothing has changed (he later says he just reread and thought him more likely town for his active lurking than scum and didn't like the wagon).

Null-minor scum tell.

ISO 17-20:

Null.

ISO 21: Votes Empking for posting only 9 posts, each only about a sentence long. Also says he doesn't know at all about RC at this point because of active lurking.

A bit of flopping on RC, but that doesn't really mean anything as it's possible for town's mind to change as that happens more and more. Null.

ISO 22-25: Mostly null. Does mention RC active lurking more and hoping he gets back soon from V/LA and can satisfy digi's request for content and once again pushes idea of Empking lynch instead of RC.

Null.

ISO 26: Says he has to now decide between LMP and RC, but keeps door open for Tasky vote as well.

Mostly null.

ISO 27: Jumps onto Rhinox wagon for Anon's reasons. Says LMP is prob scum, RC is null, Empking is prob scum, and ckd and Anon are town.

The vote could be bussing, so mostly null there. His prob scum reads are interestingly wagons that might kick off but we know to be town. Mostly null tell.

ISO 28: Questions LMP's vote of him for being on multiple wagons.

Null.

ISO 29-30: Claims Prof X but refuses to claim ability. Then, somewhat forced to claim ability. Claims Redirector and says he directed gandalf to Zang.

His redirector claim was unconfirmed at this point, but by now is confirmed. Alignment is still unknown. Null.

ISO 31-32: Says he didn't choose Empking as a target because he didn't think of him. Says he will probably pick Empking N2.

Null.

ISO 33: First, unhappy because 2 townie lovers died with lynched scum (and NKed scum). Second, happy because 2 scum are dead. Third, says LMP is #1 suspect.

I don't see why a townie would be unhappy about dead lovers with 2 dead scum. Seems like a great deal to me. It might be explained by Anon being one of the dead lovers and SF following Anon a lot at this point. Null-minor scum tell.

ISO 34-38: Doesn't want to claim N2 action but votes LMP. Later says LMP was one of his targets. Says he has nothing concrete and his role didn't say anything about LMP, but he still keeps his vote there.

LMP had not claimed yet, but listed SF, Rob, and digi as the scummiest. digi then makes a pretty good point (later called WIFOM by RC) about how LMP is prob town because Budja was lining up his lynch next (and bussing two partners when unlikely to be NKed is detrimental to scum win). Null-minor scum tell.

ISO 39-46: Mostly null. He does claim his N2 action was LMP to Robbnva and unvotes.

Action confirmed. Null.

ISO 47-49: Says RC, Robbnva, and me (KageLord) are town. LMP, I doubt it, digi, and ckd are prob town. Mafuyu and Empking are scummiest. When asked why I (KageLord) am town, he says my "don't lynch the PR (LMP)" seems a genuine town reaction. Then says it could be "don't lynch my scumbuddy PR" because of I doubt it's interpretations and says he'll reread me.

Interesting that I'm not just prob town to him at this point, but sure town and Mafuyu is still scummy. What is more interesting is that my behavior toward LMP early D3 (insisting he is town and not to lynch him when it would be all too easy to jump on his wagon as scum) is probably what connects my alignment to his more than anyone else. Null tell from SF.

ISO 50-55: Null.

ISO 56: Votes Mafuyu for jumping wagons. Says he doesn't see anything severely scummy from me (KageLord).

Null.

ISO 57-60: Null.

ISO 61-62: Votes LMP out of nowhere, claiming he thinks LMP and Mafuyu are in it together (with another vote quickly followed by Mafuyu). Unvotes LMP due to Mafuyu vote putting him at L-1.

I would have given SF some scum points, but his unvote seems town. I don't know what scum motive he could have behind unvoting at that point. Big town tell.

ISO 63: Says he'll believe LMP and votes Mafuyu for... being scummier iho and says she needs to claim.

Seems like possible rolefishing. Slight scum tell.

ISO 64: Now gives reasons why Mafuyu is scummy (little value and quick votes). Says LMP isn't clean, but she's scummier, though he still thinks they're in it together. Then votes LMP citing ckd!

This gives me a 'wtf' moment. He just got done saying he'll believe LMP for now and Mafuyu is scummier and then he votes LMP in the same post (for convenient scumclaiming (?) and 'overall scumminess'). Given now that he's trying to connect his alignment with LMP's, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Big scum tell.

ISO 65-67: More Mafuyu-LMP scum team talk. He asks ckd if we can lynch Mafuyu since ckd doesn't want to lynch LMP anymore. He says there is 100% chance of scum between Mafuyu and LMP.

I don't know where that confidence comes from, but more pandering to ckd. Where'd this Mafuyu-LMP team go now, SF? Null-minor scum tell.

ISO 68-71: Says either Mafuyu is opportunistic scum or Mafuyu and LMP coordinated as scum. List is now: Mafuyu, LMP, Empking, Robbnva.

More of the same. Null.

ISO 72: Votes Mafuyu.

Null.

ISO 73-74: Votes Robbnva for the John Connor vs. John O'Conor fiasco. Assumes either failed redirect or Godfather Rob.

What happened to LMP suspicion? If you thought LMP was scum, couldn't he just have been lying? Slight scum tell.

ISO 75: Votes Mafuyu for being redirected to dead Empking.

Reasonable. Null.

ISO 76-81: Unvotes Mafuyu, saying it's too soon. Later says Mafuyu's still 100% scum. Also mentions SK possibility (not for Mafuyu, but in general).

Then why not lynch? 100% scum lynch is good for town. Slight scum tell.

ISO 82-85: Null.

ISO 86: Brings up questions about my claim, which I answer.

Null.

ISO 87: Suggests Mafuyu and me.

What happened to Mafuyu and LMP? Theory after theory, little evidence. Null-minor scum tell.

ISO 88: Suggests unaligned mafia.

What? Null.

ISO 89-90: Wants Mafuyu daykilled. Suggests 4 max scum team. Says only Budja could have made the kill (despite being mafia-isolated). "Therefore me and LMP are again scum together or not."

THIS is what I was talking about. How does this mean you and LMP share an alignment? Why couldn't it be LMP and someone else or you and someone else? Confusing, but null.

ISO 91: Unvotes Mafuyu.

Interesting... but null.

ISO 92: Says he and LMP are confirmed town and everyone else is questionable.

To us, the only confirmed town is LMP. Anyway, the only question of me has been answered without rebuttal, so what's the case against me again? And you say Mafuyu's claim makes you rethink Mafuyu. Interesting. Null.

ISO 93: Says he will answer my question in time and demands people vote for who to daykill.

So at this point SF didn't believe he answered my question. Null.

ISO 94: Votes Mafuyu for daykill but mentions me (KL) and crypto as still suspects.

Mostly null.

ISO 95-100: Null.

ISO 101: Says RC town, Mafuyu scum, me (KL) scum, crypto scum.

He doesn't say it, but it implies one of us must be SK. Anyway, he's wrong on at least one of those (moi). Null.

ISO 102: Says the only people suspecting RC are scum.

So that means scum include myself, Mafuyu, digi, and somewhat LMP. Strange that he can be so confident. Almost as if he knows the outcome. Null-minor scum tell.

ISO 103: Votes Mafuyu again and says digi is role-clear.

Null.

ISO 104-105: Says he answered my questions and Mafuyu is obvscum and not lynching her makes me her buddy. Then gives somewhat worthless answers to my questions.

Okay, so obviously something changed from that above post where he says he'll answer my questions in time. The thing is, he didn't really direct any possible answers at me in that stretch. So he must now think his previous statement (I redirected cop from town to town, so I'm town) is enough to pass. Also, implies that Mafuyu has buddies in me, digi, and Faraday. Solid scum tell.

ISO 106: Gives reasons for reads.

What I find interesting here is his reasons for LMP town cop. All of the given reasons were there when he still suspected Mafuyu and LMP as a scum team. What changed other than the death of the person he was following (ckd)? Also, he doesn't really give a solid reason against me. His end result on me seems to be just null (has a good result, but could be scum tracker, but claim fits flavorwise), but he then says he still thinks I'm scum for some reason. Slight scum tell.

ISO 107-112: Null.

Overall: I was actually just about to drop my read of SF to even with digi (tied for second most town after LMP) by ISO 62. He hadn't done anything majorly scummy and in fact, he had done something that I couldn't really explain for scum. The reason I would remain wary of him would only be because of how much he was following Anon and ckd. Then it all went downhill from ISO 64. He does a complete 180 and revotes claimed cop LMP as Mafuyu's scumbuddy after saying he somewhat believed him. And his play D4 has been appalling. For me, he goes from second scummiest to tied for second most town to tied for scummiest. Next ISO will have to be Mafuyu (either weak bandwagoning town or scum).

Worthy of note: in post 905 LMP says SF is scum redirector for a similar reason to what I saw in ISO 64. I noticed that on the reread after ISOing that section.
__________________________________________

Preview edit: Ahhhhhh... thanks for that, LMP. I didn't understand the logic there. That's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hear from him. I still don't agree with the logic and think it's faulty, but at least it's an explanation.

[KageLord]

Yikes. Didn't realize how long that was. If you really can't stand to read that whole thing, skipping to the ones that don't say 'null' at the end in italics seems like a fine plan.

[KageLord]

@KL: So many null tells, sooooo many null tells. You missed the fact that A: I've been one of the most active players and B: I have been open and honest about my actions each night. Care to explain your recent surge in activity? I mean D3 you did nothing, especially when you were accused scum by LMP and Mafuyu. Now D4, when I lead the case against you, you suddenly are active and desperately making me look like scum. Care to explain?

A: This explains the number of null tells. I don't see it as an excuse for the scum tells though, so... I don't know why you mention it.

B: I can see how this might be a town tell, but it could also be scum trying to look like a town PR. WIFOM aside, I consider that a null-minor town tell. Besides, my claim is open and honest about all of my night actions so far too. I was wondering why an earlyclaimed PR even made it this long anyway.

Increased activity is a null tell. There are a large number of things that determine activity, so to presume that alignment is the major factor would be foolish. For one thing, my other games are in nighttime (except maybe one, which I haven't paid much attention to anyway). For another thing, D3 my real life was a lot more active. That would be when I actually went outside and had multiple basketball and soccer games a week and went to friends' houses and parties. At this point, almost all of my friends have already parted ways for college, so I don't have much to do. But that's out-of-game stuff, which doesn't really belong here. Which is why using activity (other than major lurking/active lurking) as a tell is not so useful.

ISO 33: First, unhappy because 2 townie lovers died with lynched scum (and NKed scum). Second, happy because 2 scum are dead. Third, says LMP is #1 suspect. I don't see why a townie would be unhappy about dead lovers with 2 dead scum. Seems like a great deal to me. It might be explained by Anon being one of the dead lovers and SF following Anon a lot at this point. Null-minor scum tell.

2 initial thoughts on your ISO:

1. You mention this post as scummy, but I fail to see the reason. Yes lovers are down, but

Anon, the most pro-town player at the time, died

. Hmm....Why are you so happy about that?

First, notice that I put it as null-minor scum tell. To me, that means it's just barely worth mention. Second, why wouldn't I, who wants the town to win, be happy? I imagine that lovers near endgame can be absolutely dreadful for town. "Oh, we're safe from lylo this day by 1 player, so we don't need to be super cautious." Then 2 townies die instead of 1 and town loses. Also, in my books, 2 scum for 2 not-so-helpful town PRs is fantastic. Even though Anon did seem quite helpful in scumhunting, I'm pretty sure he would be fine with taking a scum down with him.

I chose this part of your post in particular to look at since he is one of the leading wagons right now and actually the one I was rethinking when you posted. Originally I thought most of the case against him was BS. For example, I still don't think that him voting the dead gandalf is a scumtell (or towntell). After looking at your first 2 points, I still saw some leeway for him to be just a bit newbie town wanting to seem important for being on a wagon, but combined with the 3rd point, it does seem like he is just jumping from wagon to wagon while always leaving the door open to jump back. He tries to move to TheLonging wagon for starting the Tasky wagon while still being able to go back to Tasky and say, "I never fully cleared him of suspicion for that." (and he later does go back to Tasky). He does the same kind of thing with RC, which is staying on the fence about him while checking out other wagons or going for lurkers.

I also want RC to stop active lurking though. I don't necessarily think he's scum for it (it's hard to tell, since he always seems to exhibit that no matter what his alignment is), but it's still anti-town. I wouldn't be too disappointed if he is the one lynched (though I don't intend to vote for him).

Right now, I'm going for who I think is most scummy, not anti-town...

Vote: SharkFinn

2. You put me at nulltells(and like 1 minor towntell) up to this post. I had already been voted on up to L-2. You were on my wagon saying I am the most scummy player. You sir are a hypocrite.

Obviously my opinion of your vote-hopping has changed. At that point, you had a lead on Mafuyu in that category. Now, Mafuyu has obviously taken the lead. And note that I do mention your vote-hopping (especially after Anon and ckd) later in the ISO and/or recap. Plus, at the time, there wasn't a strong case against anyone else. A vote-hopping case is better than none.

Besides, you wanna talk hypocritical voting, how bout unvoting LMP, saying you believe him, voting him again, later unvoting him and saying you believe him again?

You say Mafuyu is the scummiest, yet you made no arguments against her and focus all of your time on me. Why?

PREVIEW EDIT: @ Mafuyu: wait you saying that KL is saying that me and you are scumbuddies??? EWWW GROSS!!!

I assume the first part is referencing my recent actions (D4). If so, I have already explained this multiple times. Mafuyu's fate seems all but sealed (or at least did before I started bothering you) at this point and she will flip what she will. I'm thinking about the endgame.

As I mentioned before,

there are at least 2 killers still alive right now, so even the death of Mafuyu-scum wouldn't win us the game. If Mafuyu's SK, then who is the remaining mafia? That's a question we should be asking ourselves. And then, what if Mafuyu's actually town? We're actually kind of in mylo now, aren't we? Assuming Mafuyu is lynched and flips town and the 2 kills tonight hit 2 townies, we lose. The only hope of winning if we mislynch is if SK hits scum or scum hits SK or one or more kills are blocked.

And I hope that's not what Mafuyu's saying, since it's dead wrong. I am definitely not trying to say that Mafuyu and you are scumbuddies. If Mafuyu flips scum, my entire case against you goes kaput (since you are very probably not SK).

@Mafuyu, Clearly you don't understand optimal play. Jumping on another wagon (even though wagon-jumping has been a main point against you for a while now) is not the best move, I would think. Not to mention your premise is flawed. Why would I "bridge connectivity" at this point instead of jumping on your quicklynch wagon? My vote wouldn't look conspicuous considering the evidence against you and I probably wouldn't have to wait long for digi or Faraday to hammer. And, if you ended up flipping town, who would look the most suspicious? Probably the one that was preaching you were 100% scum. I still don't understand how you possibly think scum would want to prolong the day.

@digi, where'd you go?

[KageLord]

I gotcha now. Atm, KL is scummiest acting, Mafuyu is acting more town today, but result is pretty scummy...

Expectations: KL flips mafia tracker/godfather, Mafuyu flips sk.

UNVOTE:

Both are scum in my PoV. Willing to listen on LMP's opinion on who to lynch. Mafuyu has hard evidence + prev behavior to make her scummy. KL has a scummy claim and ultrascummy behavior. Especially what I found in his ISO. Either he had null tells on every player, had tons of town tells, or hypocritical scum.

Why do you presume that I might flip GF? There hasn't even been an investigation on me.

And again, buddying up to the most town player. At least when I'm accused of buddying, it's to the least town player (and by the least town player too XD). If you need a reference as to the "again", it's Anon and ckd.

[KageLord]

@Everyone: Please focus. Mafuyu was scummy as hell from pretty much D2 on (only saved yesterday by Robbnva quoting his role PM and getting modkilled). Mafuyu then claims to get blocked when targeting RC (after I claimed to be blocked after targeting RC). Then we learn Mafuyu got redirected to Empking (a player no scum would have had any reason to fear) and Empking ends up dead. Lastly, despite all evidence pointing to Mafuyu's guilt, digi shoots the only other possible SK candidate (RC), and RC flips town. Mafuyu also refuses to full claim actions, and claims an item-based JOAT which makes no sense alongside KL's non-item based JOAT (Mafuyu claims her role has to spend 1 night prepping an item, then one night using, KL can use one each night).

What does it all mean? Mafuyu is scum. Mafuyu should be lynched. You two bickering back and forth is useful for determining tomorrow's moves, but we can't forget that Mafuyu is the lynch today. Frankly either one of you could be the last scum. And I don't know if your back and forth right now is making it any clearer which one.

Ultimately a very good point. I'm still prepared to vote Mafuyu for today's lynch. I just think we should perhaps wait for Faraday and digi to come back first. Or at least just digi. If Faraday's VT, I guess it won't really matter if (s)he misses Night anyway.

[KageLord]

@digi: You've cleared yourself to us now. We could really use you in here. Either vote, or participate in the discussion. Doing neither is not helpful.

Sorry, I've been busy due to another year of class starting. I'll probably make it official and

V/LA next 26 hours

, but I'll get in a read of the last 10 pages and a vote.

Alrighty, then I'll very probably drop the hammer (if your vote is for Mafuyu) after you're done.

[KageLord]

Why must you be the one to hammer? You trying to set it up so someone else hammers which gives you plausible deniability regardless of whatever Mafuyu flips? Words mean nothing. Time to act.

... Is this serious or are you joking?

1. No. This would be a pretty stupid way to set it up so I'm not the one hammering. Since I said my vote already, it doesn't matter in that regard if Mafuyu flips town. I'll be just as in the wrong as the other people in the wagon.

2. I can't hammer right now, only put Mafuyu at L-1. But, as digi wants more time to read (and frankly I wouldn't mind that either), there is no need for me to rush a vote.

[KageLord]

1. Hypothetically, you could retract saying that you "changed your mind" and didnt want to hammer as your reason for not hammering and "letting" someone else like Faraday or Digi to hammer.

2. But you can still vote and let digi hammer when he's ready.

3. Just gaging reactions out of you. Thank you very much for taking the test. The results shall be posted up tomorrow after you flip scum.

1. Yeah, I suppose... but then I would look hella scummy. So that's not really an option for town or scum. Also, digi couldn't be the one to hammer if he's giving the L-1 vote. >>

2. Eh, I could. But what's your rush? It's not going to happen before digi gets back anyway.

3. Lol, we'll see. My night action has a pretty good chance of catching scum and/or SK, so... if it works, I'll pretty much be cleared.

[KageLord]

3. Lol, we'll see. My night action has a pretty good chance of catching scum and/or SK, so... if it works, I'll pretty much be cleared.

A "pretty good chance"? It seemed like earlier when you quasi-claimed it you didn't want to full claim as the activity would tell both the scum and SK tomorrow:

I've never seen this kind of power before and if it's blocked, it will be revealed that it was blocked in-thread the next day by the mod (I had to ask the mod if it was revealed by him even if I was dead). If I'm alive tomorrow or it's revealed that I was blocked, we will know our scum and SK.

Was it just an overstatement originally or can you really guarantee finding all our enemies tomorrow?

Thinking back, that was an overstatement. I thought about how it could play out more and realized that if a certain circumstance occurs, they may be able to talk their way out of it. You will understand what I mean tomorrow and you can decide then if I'm full of it or not.

[KageLord]

Well, like I said, we'll see tomorrow. In the meantime, as promised...

Vote: Mafuyu

[KageLord]

Happy scumday, ooba!

The longest night has arrived...

[KageLord]

DIGIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII! Why? WHY?

LMPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP! Why? WHY?

Damn... good game guys. Did not expect two scum cops or the SK to have a day-kill. >>

[KageLord]

So if digi targeted Faraday instead of KL it would have been digi win? That is awesome. What a close game.

I seriously can't believe I lived after I made that CML=Clare scumslip on D2. Rhinox said in thread that he knew who Clare was. Later I said CML when talking about Clare. The only reason I knew CML was Clare was because of the scum QT. People even pointed out that I shouldn't have known who Clare was. Yet somehow I just ignored it, the Rhinox lynch went through, we NKed Anon, and everyone just completely forgot. I was stunned I was still alive, and I was sweating bullets because I had to either claim a tracker (which would explain how I knew that CML=Clare) or claim my actual Cop abilities, and just hope people never remembered the CML=Clare thing. I went with claiming Cop, since I knew I could produce results from my actual cop ability. When Anon *facepalmed* in his BAH post I was laughing so hard.

GG everyone, that game was ALOT of fun.

Was there something to the time-traveler/non-time-traveler other than the SK's win condition?

Wow. Did not remember that was you. I thought something of it at the time, but for some reason I didn't connect it with you after the cop claim and then just completely forgot. Well... damn.

And big surprise that SF flips town as well. So both my finishing reads (RC and SF) were wrong.

Agreed about the scumcops thing though. That's really quite powerful (not only because of the actual ability, but because of how unexpected two scumcops are). After Rhinox I thought there was no way LMP would be scum (I had some doubts on I doubt it at the beginning (well, not when I replaced in, but soon after), but all of the inactivity and replacing kind of made me ignore it). Lol now I kind of wish I let digi kill me. Last townie standing! XD

[KageLord]

Lame that Mafuyu had to be directed to the kill though. If Mafuyu wasn't, we (I certainly wouldn't) might not have lynched her. But that's the way the cookie crumbles, I guess.

And lol now that I think about it, most of SF's defense seemed like he was saying if LMP is town he's town, but I thought LMP was town and he was scum, and it turned out the opposite of what I thought (LMP scum, SF town). Straaaaaange.

RC... I love you man. Really.

LynchMePls appears to have his head screwed on straight, as does SharkFinn, which is good because they're my two best town reads.

I am also still very uneasy that LMP is a claimed cop with NO provable results (which is the oldest trick in the book for scum).

Right result, completely wrong reason. Note he also told digi to kill Mafuyu and lynch me, which could have led to either digi or scum win but certainly not town.

I can't shake the willies. I don't want to lose to LMP again. Maybe he's a cop, maybe he's scum.

HE IS NOT ANOTHER SCUM COP, IDIOT.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

RC - the VI-bashing VI

[hr]

RC, you did have LMP nailed at one point. You also had Mafuyu nailed at one point. And me. And SF. And crypto. And Robbnva. Noticing a pattern? If you go ahead and go "This person is scum. I'm so sure." then "Nope, this other person is scum. I'm sure. Vote him noobs." then "Nah, that wasn't right. You're noobs. This third person is definitely scum, but not those other two. Vote for him everyone.", you are definitely going to be right, but you will definitely be wrong too.

[KageLord]

Reading this game, all I get it out of it is how amazingly horrible I am at playing scum. LMP claims scum in thread and can't even get lynched

Am I awesome or what? :p

You do get props there. But mostly I blame myself for being an idiot on that slip. And on their being two scumcops when I've never even seen one scumcop before. That made it difficult. >>

[KageLord]

Town was pretty much doomed by making set-up assumptions. Let this be a lesson to everyone - 'Confirmed ability / role does not mean confirmed alignment'. The fact that LMP and his predecessors never produced a non-Town result and yet lived the entire game should have been a sign that something was up.

Aye. That was a big mistake I made. I usually don't say confirmed ability is confirmed alignment (see RC and SF), but I did so with the cop. He could have done practically anything from D4 on and I probably wouldn't have suspected him. Live and learn, I guess.

I wasn't so suspicious of the no results as I usually am though. I don't really know why. I mean, I figured his odds of getting a scum role weren't that high earlier on and he was blocked by RC the last time.

[KageLord]

i totally deserved this win.

lol

[KageLord]

I think the only difference had to do with Digi's alt win condition.

I think that's pretty much it. Also my Doc ability.