Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[Magua]

Hi guys. I mostly ignored D1, but read D2.

I favor Ribwich for tribune again: VOTE: Ribwich. I've read scotmany's and Porochaz's stances against it, but don't believe them. Don't think the position they take is scummy, just think they're wrong.

Let's see, quick lists:

Lurkers who I haven't read anything of note from:
Mert
Primate (how did he get to be a consul?)
Leon Belmont
Lowell

People who strike me as scum:
Feysal
SpyreX
scotmany12 (this one's shakier than the others)

Shame about SpyreX being a consul today, IMO. Can't say I really like either of those choices.

Nathaniel gets buddy-buddy points for vetoing my slot's execution (three times, yay!)

[Magua]

Nathaniel gets buddy-buddy points for vetoing my slot's execution (three times, yay!)

what exactly are buddy-buddy points?

At this point, me not wanting to see you dead.

[Magua]

I kinda want to punch people in the face for having the audacity to vote for the self voting piece of idioticness that is ribwich. Honestly, lets choose someone who failed to be a good consul yesterday, by vetoing Jack. Yes I disagreed with it, I fully think Jack is town but its not really the point here. If the majority of the town think he is scum thedn who the fuck does he think he is to bveto it. I am angry that he is being considered again. My middle finger is up at all of you bas5tards/.

I'm going to translate this: "Ribwich was not a good consul. He vetoed the death of someone who I think was town, and he executed someone who turned out to be scum. However, my win condition be damned, I want someone who'll bow to the group think."

Do I have that right?

There better be words to accompany all three of these because one for three in that slot isn't good odds.

I don't understand your meaning of "one for three in that slot isn't good odds". Good odds for what?

[Magua]

Lack of understanding doesn't mean not giving words but sure I'll play along:

Of those three names one has any real chance of being scum. I'll let you figure out which one!

If you think that two of the names I gave have no chance for being scum, why would my words make any difference at all?

[Magua]

Also, Magua's stance on Nathaneal is either scummy or extremely misguided. "You didn't want my predecessors lynched" is a terrible reason for not wanting to lynch someone.

Do you think Nathanael and I are scum partners?

If you do not, what rationale would scum-Nathanael have for delaying the execution of town-Katsuki three times?

I would also like your words on why you think the three people you listed are scum. Stop stalling.

And are we really going to elect ribwich as tribune again? Come on guys.

I'm not giving these words. This isn't stalling. This is me asking Spyrex why he cares what I say if he's already made up his mind on two of my reads (himself and Feysal).

I'll ask you a different question. You think ribwich is town. You think Jack is town. Who do you think is scum?

[Magua]

If you do not, what rationale would scum-Nathanael have for delaying the execution of town-Katsuki three times?

1) You might be; I don't have a read on you yet
2a) It makes him look good if/when Kat flips Town
2b) He gets to keep a useless lurker around instead of someone posting
2c) He gets to delay the day until close to deadline, leaving very little time for discussion when after he swapped over to another execution

#2a is false, as he was already being called scum for his actions
#2b is worth thinking about, but seems mitigated by the fact that he did, in fact, end up executing a useless lurker.
#2c is false, as in it didn't happen. Maybe could've happened, sure, but that's getting kind of tenuous.

Now, would both of you (that is, SensFan and scotmany) mind voting for tribune?

[Magua]

Um..I think Jack is scum. You aren't even reading the game, are you?

I made a mistake on this one, and got you confused with Porochaz (referencing post #816: viewtopic.php?p=2696944#p2696944). My bad.

And you are stalling. I want you to explain why you think me, spyrex, and feysal are scum. Now.

I don't think you, Spyrex and Feysal are all scum, as I don't believe there's five scum in the game. You just strike me as the collectively most-likely-to-be-scum. I don't have any explanation to give at this point.

[Magua]

Now, would both of you (that is, SensFan and scotmany) mind voting for tribune?

I'm voting for parama. I'm convinced you aren't reading anything that is not directly related to you or your predecessor.

Not according to the votecount in #809, or any of the posts after it, which is what I checked.

Oh, I see it now in #776. Not bolded. Did you not notice your vote in the vote count?

Why do you think we are the most likely to be scum? If you think we are scummy, you must have a reason.

Because I don't like what I've read from all three of you -- why else? Yet, I haven't put the energy into putting a case together, and I'm not going to until I think it will serve some purpose.

@SensFan: Ok, so you think Nathanael is scum? Who do you think should be tribune?

[Magua]

ANSWER THE QUESTION.

LAST TRY.

What's really handy is putting some context to your demands. Like, to whom they're addressed.

Doubly awesome when it references stuff that's not on the current page.

Just sayin'.

[Magua]

Funny thing is.... you, the person who that was obviously addressed to, responded.

And, in fact, mentioned the TOUGH HARD LIFE DATA it in fact referenced.

And, THEN, had the gall to not answer.

(p.s. I'm shooting youuuuuu once the voting is done)

Shocking turn of events.

[Magua]

Again, you could have chose to answer.

Hell, you could have even chose to answer THEN.

Yet, nope, 2 hard

Do you think I'm scum?

[Magua]

I've never, ever, ever expressed anything resembling distaste for that slot promise.

One last try. Answer the question.

You have not asked me a question. The closest you come is:

There better be words to accompany all three of these because one for three in that slot isn't good odds.

That's not even a demand (like scotmany did, and to which I responded in #832 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15678&start=825).

But, mostly, I'm just responding to you the same way you respond me. You don't want to play nice with my questions (such as why you would care what I right if you're already disregarding it), then I am not motivated to play nice with yours.

[Magua]

I still don't get why you would want anyone to be both Consulmaker and Tribune, let alone someone who veto'd the Jack execution yesterday.

I suggest you go back and re-read the Sens/chess parts of D1, Magua. You might learn a lesson from his behaviour: don't go out of your way to antagonise the Consul for no reason.

The first one I translate is "Why would you want confirmed town to be Tribune?" with the unstated add-on of "even though they executed scum yesterday".

The second I translate as "Don't piss off a consul, or they may execute you instead of executing scum," because, Lord knows, only scum would ever dare to piss off a consul.

Your entire take, Sens, seems to be "Jack annoys me, and I want to see him executed, even though every logical connection has him not being scum with dramonic and reckoner." To this, you add, "Oh, and I also want to see Magua executed, because he's annoying a consul, and seriously, you people should know better."

You don't want ribwich a tribune because even though he's confirmed, he might have a false townread. Instead, you'll trust that *your* townread is accurate, which, of course, it might not be, and then that your townread's townread is accurate, and you think that this is better? Because it doesn't seem so to me.

[Magua]

@Magua:

Who do you think is more likely scum, Porochaz or Leon Belmont?

Porochaz, almost solely for this post:

I kinda want to punch people in the face for having the audacity to vote for the self voting piece of idioticness that is ribwich. Honestly, lets choose someone who failed to be a good consul yesterday, by vetoing Jack. Yes I disagreed with it, I fully think Jack is town but its not really the point here. If the majority of the town think he is scum thedn who the fuck does he think he is to bveto it. I am angry that he is being considered again. My middle finger is up at all of you bas5tards/.

"Ribwich was bad because he vetoed the execution of someone I thought was town."

I am meta-disinclined to believe that Leon is scum due to his complete lack of activity in the game.

Anyway, since I believe you are probably wrong about all three of your scum reads, I have to wonder where they are coming from. Are you misinformed town, or are you scum, trying to push lynches on town? The difference is in the reasons. If you can point to valid concerns you may have with any of us, I can be satisfied with you being misinformed town. If your cases on us are bogus or nonexistent, scum starts to look more likely.

I don't have a case. I haven't put the energy into a case. I read D2 in one sitting and my gut read when I was done was that you were the most likely to be scum. I put it out there for two reasons: one, to get it out there, register my opinion, and two, to see what the reaction was.

I mean, just from the above, I get little cringes. "Misinformed town"? I can't be misinformed, as I'm not informed to begin with.

Besides, answering questions when they are asked is pro-town. Arguing semantics of whether it was a question in the first place is not, and countering the question with your own questions is not. You are stalling. You've lost the opportunity to earn town points with a timely answer, but I still want to know what led you to be suspicious of the three of us. Your response in #835 is too little to be satisfactory. If you need a reason to make cases on us, I'll give you this. Writing the cases on us would enable us to respond to them, and allow us to get a better read of you.

I'm not worried about earning townpoints. My problem with Spyrex was that when I said he was scummy, he reacted with aggression and...well, nothing else. Didn't engage in a conversation. Is provoking him the wisest move? Nah. But communication is a two way street.

Question for you: So you've got a fairly long list of people you think aren't scum. Who do you think is scum?

[Magua]

Magua, do you have any plans at all to read day one?

I will likely read it Monday.

[Magua]

Double post.

Fonz is making a lot of sense; gives me good vibes.

Fonz calls you scum. Repeatedly. You agree?

[Magua]

4 pages? You kids. Like how Fonz was able to get himself a tribune-ship, though.

Re: Jack.

I've read a lot of "If there are two scumgroups, Jack could still be scum."

This is just not true. Scum know if there's two groups or not (3 scum? 2 groups. 5 scum? 1 group.) For Jack to be a member of a three-person scumteam and claim consulmaker D1 is just stupid. And of all the arguments I've seen about Jack, no one's said that he's stupid.

Given the reckoner/dramonic interaction and heavy bussing, I'm disinclined to believe there's two scumgroups at all. A single five man scumgroup plus an SK fits the pieces so much better (I say SK over vig, again, because I don't see dramonic getting vigged).

Scum do not, in my experience, want to jump up and down and wave a sign that says "vig me" D1 if there's the slightest chance that there's really a vigilante. Or a second scum group. Sure, sure, Kaleidoscope gambit. That's against investigative roles. The whole thing falls flat against NKs.

So, seriously:
1) I don't believe that Jack is scum with dramonic and reckoner. I don't think that *anyone* thinks he is. No, wait. scotmany mentions this. Ok, I don't think anyone but scotmany believes this.
2) I don't believe any mafia would make a target of themselves D1 if there was a second mafia faction, *and* I believe that mafia know from their numbers whether there's a second mafia faction when the game starts.

Therefore: I don't believe Jack is scum. Executing Jack is a dumb move.

[Magua]

So I finished reading D1. I know you all were in suspense.

SensFan is scum. Here's why.

Post #30: Jack claims consulmaker.

Post #48: Jack has claimed consulmaker (#30), ribwich has not yet cc'ed (#55)

Is this a criterion for tribune? I would be much more comfortable with making someone I pretty much know is town tribune.

Oh, you're right. I completely forgot that the Mod gave us a handy list of confirmed-Town players to pick our Day1 Tribunes from. Sorry, my bad.

Sens thinks Jack is going to dominate D1 as confirmed town, and wants to lay groundwork against that.

Post #55: Ribwich cc's consulmaker.

Post #71: Amongst the confusion, SensFan makes this proclamation:

I will not allow an execution of either claimed Consulmaker to go through today.

Hot on the heels of Primate pointing out in post #70 that consulmaker is a testable PR, this is done for town points.

Post #84: SensFan floats the idea of having Jack/ribwich make eachother the consul for D2. This plan draws a lot of fire, as if you believe one of (Jack, ribwich) is scum, then it involves making a scum consul, which is at best a guaranteed NL for D2.

Post #151: SensFan votes Jack for Tribune. This also draws a lot of fire, but SensFan backs it up by saying that even having a scum tribunal can be very informative. This is continued in post #186.

Post #168:

At this point, I'm not willing to give the least bit of consideration to the idea that both of you are Town, and literally nothing that could happen in the game would change my mind.

SensFan has begun his plan to try to get ribwich lynched. Only once does he address the idea that both are town (in post #80, after Primate has said they're both town, SensFan says the equivalent of, "Primate does a lot of gambitting, I can see why he'd think that").

#443: SensFan makes the first show about wanting to lynch ribwich. ribwich asks about the change in position from post #71. SensFan reiterates in #451 that he'd allow ribwich lynch.
#447: SensFan intimates it may be better for town if ribwich is killed, even if he is the real consulmaker.
#454: Despite earlier statements about not executing either consulmaker claim, and how they can be tested with 100% probability, SensFan reiterates that he's willing to lynch ribwich today:

First of all, you're right. I wouldn't vote you if I wasn't comfortable in having you executed.

Second of all, stop talking about yourself like you're confirmed Consulmaker. There's a higher chance you're Scum than anyone else other than Jack. And if we're going to gamble, it's going to be on you. If we mess up and hit JackTown, we lost a very good consulmaker. If we mess up and hit ribTown, we gain a competent consulmaker.

SensFan has determined out that ribwich is the real consulmaker. He is lining up the lynches: if he can get ribwich lynched today, then Jack is a certain mislynch tomorrow. He is even putting in the protection for the backlash -- even after ribwich was lynched, he could point to #454 and say "Well, I thought he *might* be consulmaker, but this is still good for the town"

No one bites on this plan. Nathanael calls him on it in #465, so SensFan executes Katsuki (me) in #478.

tl; dr: Despite a plan to confirm the consulmaker D2 (and even suggesting one of the plans to do so), does an about face from an earlier "no consulmaker lynch today" position and is willing to lynch one. Why? Because he knows it will set up two mislynches.

[Magua]

Repeating: Jack is town. Lynching Jack is dumb. Fonz should know better. Primate does know better but has second-guessed himself into doing what the majority wants. SensFan does know better, but is scum.

[Magua]

Triple post: bodyguard claiming is dumb. Confirmed townie today, dead that night. Whoop de shit.

[Magua]

No. SensFan lining up lynches is *specifically* him saying that ribwich should be lynched D1, after first saying neither should be lynched, and then proposing and agreeing to a plan that would give 100% confirmation to one of the consulmakers. SensFan doing a 180 on that and then floating the ribwich lynch in #443 is lining up the lynches.

Just look at the big flip between "A D2 NL is worth it to lynch a scum D3" that SensFan espouses in #86 to "It doesn't matter if ribwich is town, he's still a liability" in #447:

Best-case scenario, the other Consul is Town and we force the Scum to lynch on our terms, or else No Lynch. Even if the other Consul is Scum, he needs to put on an act of not wanting to cede to Jack/rib's demands. And either way, we get a guaranteed Scumlynch D3. I don't know about you, but I'll take a D2 NL to get a D3 Scumlynch.

What happened to "I will not allow the execution of Jack or ribwich"?

Partly what Parama said. Partly I realized that you've been much more scummy than Jack.
Mostly that I don't think its in the Town's best interests for you to continue making the decisions on who is Consul, if you happen to be Consulmaker.

"Lynch one, then the other" isn't the scumtell here. "Lynch neither of them, we have a plan that can confirm one, no wait, lynch one anyways" is the scumtell.

@Fonz: Primate and Parama both repeatedly say that they think both ribwich and Jack are town. Do you think that they're wrong? What information do you expect to get if Jack flips town?

[Magua]

WOO MASSIVE OUT OF CONTEXT QUOTES.

WOO LINKS PROVIDED RIGHT THERE SO EVERYONE HAS ALL THE CONTEXT THEY NEED

@Primate, Fonz: Humor me. Say Jack flips town. Who's the scum?

[Magua]

Thing the first: I suck at this game *so* hard.

Thing the second: VOTE: ribwich

Thing the third: A lot of my case against SensFan doesn't read right given that Jack was scum.

Given that I thought Jack was town to be the most true thing in this game outside of my own alignment and ribwich's alignment, everything else is a muddle. I still feel that Sens is scum, but the case I brought up before doesn't hold now; this is more of an emotional read, I suppose.

[Magua]

I've given it some more thought and I don't think Sens is scum.

My case was built on Sens going for a ribwichlynch-followed-by-Jacklynch, assuming they were both town. Since Jack was scum, that's obviously false.

So, backup theory is Sens-scum realizes Jack is going to get lynched, and decides to at least get a ribwich lynch out of it. That's still plausible, but there were plenty of times that the Sens-scum could've tried to throw the Jack lynch off course. Voting ribwich for Tribune D3, for instance, would seem a good move that might keep Jack alive. But we have this:

Tribune Votecount

Ribwich [5] (Nathanael, Lowell, Ribwich, Magua, Jack)
Parama [3] (Porochaz, Parama, Scotmany12)
The Fonz [3] (Sensfan, The Fonz, SpyreX)

(Not voting there is: Primate, Feysal, Leon Belmont. Just noticed that Feysal never voted D3.)

Parama thinks Jack is town -- might veto a lynch. Ribwich vetoed the Jack execution D2, and hadn't really given any indication yet that he wouldn't do that again. But SensFan votes Fonz, who is pretty stridently anti-Jack.

That, combined with scum knowing that there's a second killing role and that it targeted them, makes me think bussing scum would be thinking twice about lynching Jack D3.

Similar logic extends itself to Primate (who had laid very good reasons to be in a position to veto the lynch, and did not).

Scum is going to come from: (Nathanael, Lowell, Parama), and/or (Feysal, Shanba)
(Yes, yes. By my argument, I should be in the first group too. This is FMPOV. Screw off.)

[Magua]

Something just occurred to me. Most of us have been assuming that the dramonic kill was done by a vig because it was the only night that two people died. But there was something else that was special about night 2. That night was handled by Flameaxe, and he did things a little bit differently. Anyone that took too long to send a night action got prodded. (I know this because that night it took me a while to figure out who I wanted to be consul. I took just as long last night and didn't receive a prod.) Could it be then that dramonic wasn't killed by a vig, but instead by a lazy SK that hasn't been paying much attention to this game?

Play as if it's an SK. If it's a vig, then either there'll be a vig flip or it'll be claimed at some point. If it's scum, they're not going to claim it. Speculation on it just helps scum more than it helps us.

[Magua]

That still leaves me wondering about Lowell though. Jack started his claim of suspecting him early in day one, and kept it up to the end. What makes it even more baffling is how Jack spoke of scummy or village idiot players being good for consulship, to force them to get involved with the game, and how such players would be easy mislynches for scum. Lowell looks like he fits the description perfectly.

Given that Jack was scum, do you think this implies Lowell-town or Lowell-scum? I can't tell from your post.

After getting my ass handed to me by Jack, I've come to the conclusion that I'm better off ignoring everything that he said rather than trying to play a game of WIFOM.

[Magua]

What I'd really like to hear right now is something from Shanba in regards to Lowell and Nathanael.

Also interested what Spyrex thinks of Shanba's FoS on Feysal.

[Magua]

...stuff...

I like you.

[Magua]

While you're here, Spyrex...

Also interested what Spyrex thinks of Shanba's FoS on Feysal.

[Magua]

Mental note: Develop a well-known meta for not reading D1.

I'm interested in how both Nathanael and Feysal could have such strong townreads on Katsuki-the-lurker, but such murky reads on Lowell-the-lurker.

[Magua]

I can't tell either. I don't know. This is WIFOM to be sure, and I would not object to Lowell being executed, but I think he will flip town. If there are two scum left among twelve alive, null is about 83% in favor of town.

This doesn't feel right.

[Magua]

This is simple really. I have no read on Katsuki based on her play, but she was on death row at the end of day one, and all our known scum had no problem with that. There was no effort to start a competing case either. This suggests to me that Katsuki was the mislynch the scum wanted. Also, since you replaced in, reading you has given me a better read of your slot. Your argument with SpyreX and your initial refusal to explain your reads were scummy, but now I cannot see any scum motivation behind them. You don't seem to have any clear agenda, you seem unsure of which direction to go, and just push whoever you find scummy at the time, even with a weaker case. That is town behavior, though not very useful for scum hunting. What I would expect from scum is a sense of purpose and direction, and pushing for mislynches on weaker town players, or waiting for a prospective mislynch target to appear and then jumping on board. You have done neither. Particularly the way you based your case on SensFan on the assumption that Jack was town says that you are town, since scum would not waste their time building a case that crumbles when Jack flips.

I like you.

Why not? I don't have a read on Lowell, one way or the other. Do you? Does anyone?

Because it seems odd to say something like "I think Lowell is town, but go ahead and execute him." I get the idea I think you're trying to communicate here, but the way its phrased is what throws me. Like its prepositioning.

But lets leave that aside. My PoE is leading me to think the scums are Nathanael + (Lowell, Shanba, maaaaaaaybe SpyreX). Who do you think the scums are?

[Magua]

In this thread, nothing of value happens until Sunday when the tribunes are elected.

[Magua]

@Nathanael:

Do you still find SensFan as the most scummy person in the game?

[Magua]

Oh, for those who care or keep track, I approve of executing Lowell.

[Magua]

Tuesday, January 11th:

All right all right I'll read. I'm out of town until thursday, but I'll catch up then.

Thursday, January 13th:

Hey now!! You want your participation or not? Don't make me go back to lurking. I'll do it, too!

I'll catch up tomorrow. For now I'm jetlagged as hell.

Sunday, January 16th:

Still haven't caught up, obv (will post when I do).

Tuesday, January 18th:

Sorry these last two days have been a mess. Left work too long, it seems.

Give me a couple more days to catch up. In the meantime, search your better angels and realize killing me is opportunism.

[Magua]

magua- Clearly scum like bussing this game.

Um, well, for one, a confirmed scum DID SPEND THE ENTIRE DAY OF HIS DEATH ATTACKING ME.

[Magua]

Alright, so since we're only going to have a week after the Tribunal elections, let's get down to business and start figuring shit out now. I think it's probably fairly obvious that Nathanael is one of my top suspects at this point, so Magua, what're your thoughts about him? Is there anyone (other than rib, obviously) that you're completely against seeing executed, and/or anyone that you think should be executed instead of Nathan?

I'll post more tomorrow, at work, but real quick: VOTE: Fonz

I am not opposed to the Nathanael lynch.

My own personal execution list would be (in no specific order): Nathanael, Feysal.

I don't think that Nathanael/Parama is town-on-town action, and I have more townpoints by Parama than I do by Nathanael. However, I still get bad vibes from reading Feysal's posts.

consuls are ehhh. Sensfan is probably town, but I'm not sure I trust his judgement. Magua could well be scum.

Who would you have chosen to be consuls if you were consulmaker?

[Magua]

Would Veto
----
6. The Fonz (replacing Mert) - Rereading D1-D2, I don't have the best opinion of Mert. However, I have a very large townread on Fonz, especially in regards to pushing the Jack lynch D3, when there were plenty (myself, Nathanael, Primate) who would've been more than happy with someone else.
7. ribwich - Obv.
10. SensFan - I had a big scumread on SensFan being scum D3. Jack flip changed that. Rereading D1-D2, I *really*, *really* don't agree with anything SensFan says or did. At all. But it's just so over the top, I can't believe it's scum influenced. "Consulmakers should make eachother consul", "Jack should be D1 tribune" seems like it's designed to provoke. Sens-scum would have to be thinking that Jack would be dying D2, and would avoid the blatant buddying up. It's just so scummy it has to be town.
17. scotmany12 - Pretty heavy on "Jack should be lynched" D1, big on attacking ribwich for saving Jack D2, "It wouldn't really surprise me if both reck and dram are scum." D2.

Unsure
----
15. Parama (replacing chesskid3) - "Rudeness is town" reflected heavily in Chesskid's D1 play. Parama's play I have a harder time getting a read on. Constant on "Nathanael is scum", but waffles between "Jack is town"/"Jack is scum" disconcertingly.
2. Feysal (replacing Rabies) - I don't have a good opinion on Rabies D1, but I really don't like what I read of Feysal. It's all very measured. It's all very rational. But the ratio of "stuff" to "stances" is way off. Irritatingly, this applies both in cases that are good and bad for the scum. Difficult to get a read on. Definite anti-Jack bias, also pre-emptively throws out the "dramonic + reckoner are scum together" (#768) keeps him off of my scum list for now.
14. Shanba (replacing Leon Belmont (replacing horrordude0215)) - There's just not that much there for me to read. Total agreement on his "would veto" list, but that's about it.

Would Execute
----
3. SpyreX - Doesn't mention Jack lynch at all D2 until after ribwich vetoes the execution, then goes "If there are better choices than jack WHO ARE THEY?" (#736), calls Nath scum for "Nathaniel gets to go real soon too saying Jack is town AND Sens is scum. Woooooosh" (#806), then starts reversing "HE hasn't done anything that makes me feel better. But, with dram AND reck being scum I don't see the connection there. I could be missing something that would make me nuke him with supreme prejudice BUT I'm hesistant due to that." (#859). A lot of "I'm not against Jack being lynched" followed by a whole lot of waffling about lynching Jack.
18. Nathanael - I don't begrudge Nathanael for defending Jack-town, as I did the same thing. I do begrudge him for not changing any of his reads, as near as I can tell, in response to the Jack-scum flip, especially in regards to SensFan.

[Magua]

@Nathanael:

Who is scum with Parama?

@Parama:

Who is scum with Nathanael?

@SpyreX:

Who is scum?

[Magua]

@SpyreX:

Who is scum?

You've said Nathanael a lot. Who else?

[Magua]

Maybe Feysal - he's starting to give me the itch.
Maybe you.

I'd rather get THIS done and move to the next part when the next part comes.

I think there's value in forcing people to take positions before the event. Then you can compare to their position after the event, see if the progression feels natural.

You had a pretty big town read on Feysal D2. What changed?

[Magua]

It's just so scummy it has to be town.

Heh. Joking aside, this is a fairly townie-ish thought process. Didn't you used to think Nathanael was town because he vetoed you? (That was also an awful piece of logic, by the way, but why has your position changed?)

Half of it is the difference in the reads Nathanael got between Katsuki and Lowell. Nath claims to have gotten a strong townread on Katsuki, which, while I admit to being biased because it's my slot, I just don't see as possible. Then he turns around and has no qualms about Lowell getting executed because Lowell is one of his top three picks. There's an inconsistency there that bothers me.

The other half is process of elimination. There's too many people who I think are townier than Nathanael, and Nathanael's actions D2-and-on do not feel particularly townie, given the flips.

The other other half (yes, 150%) is that I don't think Parama/Nathanael is town-attacking-town.

I want someone to go down and tell me all the shit on him. Everything. So that I can make a judgement. I feel like I'm trying to do this in the dark here, trying to both divine why people are thinking he's scum and whether they're correct at the same time. Am I the dumb one? I don't see it.

I would prefer, rather than convincing you, that you convince me someone is scummier.

[Magua]

Not ignoring this game, but extremely under the weather. Will check-in tomorrow.

[Magua]

I approve of this execution.

@Feysal:

If we weren't going to execute Nathanael or Parama today, who would you want executed?

[Magua]

VOTE: Ribwich

Interested in Parama saying more than "..." at this juncture.

[Magua]

Scum tribune still means we're not executing scum that day. And, at this point, there's really not much use in having a tribune at all.

[Magua]

Ribwich, you're going to have to make a pretty good case on why I should be executing parama over one of sens/magua.

I don't think Sens is scum.

Magua is MUCH scummier than Sens, Scot. Just look at yesterday. Look at which consul stuck his neck out for a Nate lynch, look at which one just kinda sat back and didn't do much and just let it happen.

I approved of the Nathanael lynch. I thought he was scum. So, yeah, I was completely fine with letting it happen.

Parama/Shanba is where the lynch should be today.

[Magua]

The difference is that I executed Nathanael, while you were "completely fine with letting it happen."

You would've preferred I veto'd, re-executed?

[Magua]

Dead thread is dead.

I think Parama is the last scum. I didn't think the Nathanael-on-Parama situation was town-attacking-town, and even though I was wrong on Nath being the mafia, I still think that this is the case.

I don't like Parama calling Shanba "probably town," because I don't see how Parama can have any read on Shanba -- it's the same situation as with Lowell, except that Parama was perfectly happy to lynch Lowell.

Further, I don't think it's Fonz, scot, or Sens, so PoE doesn't leave too many possibilities.

[Magua]

Would like Shanba to say who he actually thinks scum is.

[Magua]

*prods*

[Magua]

Also, I forgot to mention this. I want a massclaim.

This is not a good idea. Pick the person you want to execute. Get them to claim. But mass claiming just outs the (likely) vigilante for little gain.

Sens wanting ribwich lynched D1 is pretty scummy; Sens' reversal over not wanting either lynched is even scummier. But, I find it very hard to believe that Sens-scum would be so incredibly obviously forward about buddying Jack-scum in this case.

[Magua]

Can you kindly take two seconds to say who you think scum is?

[Magua]

For ribwich (or whoever replaces him): If you make me a consul, I'm executing Parama or Shanba.

[Magua]

For ribwich (or whoever replaces him): If you make me a consul, I'm executing Parama or Shanba.

Could you please think for one fucking second before you post things that are retarded?

Explain the retardedness, and we'll see.

Be sure to use small words. As you know, I'm slow.

[Magua]

I've been over this multiple times. Saying "If I'm Consul I will/won't execute XXX" means that even more of the game hinges on UT's scumdar being

perfect

.

Your alternative is that it is better if UT has no idea who the person he would be making consul will execute?

How, exactly, is that helpful?

[Magua]

It's better in that UT picks someone he thinks is Town, and then that person picks who they think is Scum. Otherwise, if UT has

a single false townread

, then the Town will lose, since he won't pick anyone as a Consul if he knows they'll execute that person. Not to mention the WIFOM scum can do by killing people who either would or wouldn't execute them.

So no, I refuse to say who I will likely execute if I am made Consul, and I urge everyone else to do likewise.

In a non-Kingmaker game, it is easy enough to track who wants to lynch who through the votes. We don't have that luxury here. If we did, I could make some post like, "Vote: Parama. I'm also willing to lynch Shanba," and then we move on with our lives.

It is in the scum's interests to not have to nail themselves down on what they would do if they were consul -- dramonic painted himself into a corner with the reckoner distancing D2, and look at SpyreX with his "Guys, who should I execute now?" routine D3. It is in the town's interests to out their scumreads -- mine are Parama and Shanba. To say that town should hold all their scumreads close to their chest just seems so blatantly antitown that I can't even begin to fathom where you're getting it from.

[Magua]

Since there's no consensus in this game via votes, it is the Consul's scumdar that has to be pefect. That is the game we are playing: "Let's hope whoever the Consul is, their scumdar is perfect".

Saying who my scumreads are does not in any way change this.

UT needs to pick the person who he thinks has the most perfect scumdar. How, in your mind, do you think he should go about this process? It can't be "pick someone I know is town" -- look at your rage D1/D2 about ribwich. You must believe there's some process he *should* go through, that doesn't involve picking the person most likely to be town. What is that process?

[Magua]

Sens, do you think Fonz is town? y/n

[Magua]

And no, it wasn't just "And Tribune". You were very much up on D1 saying "Lynching ribwich ain't so bad even if he's the real consulmaker, because he's not very good at it and we might get a competent one."

[Magua]

Do you have any last reads to give, Sens?

[Magua]

So you have a null read on everyone?

[Magua]

With UT's waive of the veto, you're dead. It would be nice, if you're not scum, for you to share some of your thoughts now while you can.

[Magua]

...

[Magua]

I was thinking that scotmany was the vig. Coincided with who died compared to who he suspected.

Happy that I could take Katsuki's slot and keep it from being lynched. Sad that I didn't push for Spyrex lynch D5, or to keep SensFan from being lynched D6 -- spending so much time defending Jack only to be cut at the knees about that had me second guessing the rest of my reads too much.

[Magua]

Magua, you played an OK game but you really could have been more active in engaging with the arguments surrounding Nate.

Lesson learned, and chance to improve. I had fun playing the game, though.