Payola Mafia - Game Over

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

vote: draygn_mage

and VisMaior for considering random FoSing.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

What is that supposed to achieve?

Magic!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Interesting. I think it might be a good idea to force Nightcow to use some of his cash, because I don't think it's in the town's interest to have a big gulf between the rich and poor.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The mafia can simply off rich townies. An even spread will prevent the mafia from taking control of this town early on.

Of course a rich town

is

beneficial, but we don't whether you're pro-town. Once someone is cleared, he should hoard his money only to use if it's absolutely necessary, yes, absolutely, but you're not cleared and I certainly don't want you hoarding money.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That way we can bankrupt the mafia.

And the town too, so that doesn't make much of a difference.

And if we assume a 3-4 man mafia, then I could outpay them all.

Stop acting like you're confirmed innocent or something, seriously.

I feel I need to make a couple of frank posts suggesting ideas and explaining a coule of things. Do you guys think I should?

You should, yes.

What I think we should do to utilise the rules of this game to our advantage, is to force suspicious players and non-confirmed rich players to shell out their cash for a lynch. In a way we can get extra lynches by deriving people of their voting power.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Mod-confirmed innocence?

but yeah, you should probably keep your money to yourself.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I feel I need to make a couple of frank posts suggesting ideas and explaining a coule of things. Do you guys think I should?

[quote="Cogito Ergo Sum]You should, yes.

~raises eyebrow~
[/quote][/quote]
Frank posts suggesting ideas and explanations are a good thing. I certainly wasn't expecting a claim. I was suspicious of him and wanted to hear a bit more from him before committing.

Having said that, I think his mason claim is a good thing, as it allows us to really use the specifics of this game against the scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

He's claiming mason(with no possibility for a scummy one), that makes him pretty much confirmed pro-town in my eyes.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We got a couple more days, dude.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well yes, but I'm assuming we have a doc and that person can just keep a will.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Cool, a guilty result. Gotta love 'em. I'll be on, so if paying needs to be done, I should be able to string him up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why would you want the deadline activated? Seriously, I'd put some money on you, but I think I'll wait a little to lengthen this day.

And Mr. Stoofer, do you have an actual basis for your suspicion or is it just gut?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We're one hour into the game. I'd say it's a bit early for that sort of thing.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

What makes you so sure? A 16-player game could well have one insane and one sane cop. That doesn't mean I want him to reveal his results, as I see little reason to.

pay 60: Mr. Stoofer

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Hey, at least you're pretty much confirmed innocent.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nightcow thinks I'm scum. Wow, surprising, totally didn't see that one coming.

Can we get back to lynching Mr. Stoofer? He's actually done scummy things.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Yes, you did.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Dude, there was an innocent result on Pooky. Granted, he could still be GF, but we still have Nightcow to prevent that from becoming a mayor problem.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Everyone who isn't proven pro-town should spend their money.

pay 100: Mr. Stoofer

.

And Nightcow, can you objectively state that I've played any different from our previous two games?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well Fritzler's effectively clearing you. You're not as cleared as Nightcow or Help I'm a bug or even Pooky, but you're somewhat cleared. And if and when Fritzler dies, you could become totally cleared.

Perhaps I should've said something earlier, but I think it's time for Stoofer to claim.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Okay. Just checking whether you actually had a reason this time. So how often do I have to turn up pro-town before you change your point of view?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

How predictable. I'd say there's a 90% chance you're scum. You are free to name night choices, but you're still going down.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Pfft. Weak. Suffer not Stooferscum to live!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Are all of you gonna fall for such an obvious claim? Seriously,

pay 40: Mr. Stoofer

, he's going down.

Mod edit: this is the lastest lead change.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

How blatant can you get? CES, explain please: what do we gain from killing a claimed doc? How can you be so sure he is fake?

It's so obvious. In his position it was the only possible way to avoid a lynch. There are probably 5 players in this game who would've made that claim. Add the fact that he was suspicious to start off with and I'd be very much surprised if he isn't scum.

Also, claimed docs really aren't all that useful. If he is really a doc, we'd lose him tonight anyway.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

One extra night is not worth it. VisMaior, I've already lynched two claimed docs(one of them actually was a doc, but still). A doc claim should never be a way to be certain of avoiding a lynch. Scum claim doc.

The thing is we either get a free night or we effectively lose a day. I think he's likely enough to be scum to make me feel lynching him is advantageous to the town.

I wouldn't suggest the doc counterclaim, although since no one has yet, it's safe to say that strooker is the doc, or there's another doc and they think that there are 2.

A doc is very unlikely to counterclaim on day 2 in a 16-player game. The lack of counterclaim is completely meaningless.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I will always advocate lynching a claimed doc early in the game. It's generally worth the risk. I don't see an outed doc as a power role anymore. Lynching a real doc is only marginally worse than letting a scumbucket live.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

One night isn't going much of a difference. It's not going to give us another investigation. I'd rather just lynch scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

This is my opinion. I've lynched people that claimed doc before and I have no qualms about doing it again.

There's more to the game than just claims. Do you really think the scum aren't going to claim doc? Suffer not Stooferscum to live!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Perhaps, but seeing that a great deal of the money on the Thoth-wagon originates in Mr. Stoofer, I'd be very much surprised if Thoth was scum with Stoofer. Most importantly I'm saying that lynching a doc ain't all that bad anyway.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I feel the chance of Mr. Stoofer is high enought to warrant the risk. And as the only contender is someone I strongly expect to be innocent, it's an obvious point of view for me. I'm willing to take the risk of losing one night of doc protection.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

SUFFER NOT STOOFERSCUM TO LIVE.

That's all I ask.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think you got lynched a couple of minutes ago.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I hadn't realized it was that close between Mr. Stoofer and Thoth at the last pay count. Damn you, scum!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We need a cash/payment list. We need to see who can afford to pay the hangman to take care of Thoth.

Although I'd rather have a Mr. Stoofer lynch(honestly Thoth's last post did send some alarm bells rinkling), I'll help here. Out of the unconfirmed, the silent speaker has 190 cash and IIRC BJ has 95. Most of the others don't really have much and some, like me, are broke.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We need to look at

CES and

Stoofer. I think it highly likely that

one

he is a baddie.

Fixed!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why? Because I'm acting the same way as I always do?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Only if you always act scummy.

According to Nightcow I do.

Seriously, because of your bloodthirsty push to lynch a claimed doc.

Pfft, any good pro-town player should look at more than just the claim. I'm willing to take a stand on this issue. Outed docs are fairly useless anyway.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You are ignoring two important facts:
1. Stoofer wants Thoth lynched.
2. We have a number of confirmed innocent, but we probably have no way of getting extra.

As such, lynching scum early is clearly advantageous and Thoth is unlikely to be scum if Stoofer is. Thus 3 is clearly better than 1. Admittedly the difference between 2 and 4 might be greater, but I feel he is likely enough to be scum to go for strategy 2.

Assuming the difference between 2 and 4 is four times as great as between 3 and 1. Let's say I'm 90% sure he's scum. 90*1>10*4. That's why I'm taking a stance.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If Stoofer is our doc, then we've basically already lost him. And if he isn't, then the scum may be able to figure out who the real doc is based on the reactions to his doc claim. From my point of view, we're more likely to lose our doc if we let Mr. Stoofer live.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

For all intents and purposes, yes, it is twilight.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

He's probably a townie.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

so they didn't kill their scumbuddy....

pay 50: Mr. Stoofer

Mod Edit: This is a lead change.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I thought it was likely enough for him to be scum Yesterday. The chance of him being scum has only increased.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Twomz, I have given my arguments. Could we for once try to look past the "trying to get a claimed doc lynched" and look further? I'm willing to take a stance on this issue. Shouldn't any good pro-town player look further than a simple claim? I've thought things through and I'm going to stand by my suspicions.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

VisMaior, do you any reasons besides me going after Stoofer?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why would you want the doc to counterclaim? Losing an important power role, just because a scumbag claimed doc? This isn't Lynch-or-Lose, there's absolutely no reason to ask for a counterclaim.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Stooferscum is pretty much screwed any way. I'd say the scum pretty much consider him lost anyway. I'd be very much surprised if the scum would choose not to go after the doc.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

logicticus, that's just plain scummy.

I also think that right now it might be a good idea for you to claim. I think most of the town is willing to lynch you. If we can't lynch Stooferscum, you'll just have to do.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Here's the deal. You're scum and claimed doc. logicticus is one of your scumbuddies.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's admitting you're scum in my book. Who do we want to force to make the payment?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do we really need to wait 72 hours btw?

I'd be very much surprised if anything happened in the meanwhile.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Should Logic turn out indeed to be a bad guy, does his payment on Stoofer/Vaughn make us happier with Vaugn's allegiance, or does it not really mean anything? What if Logic defies sense and is actually a good guy?

If logic is indeed a BG, as it seems, then that payment is too WIFOM-laced to really mean anything. 'Twas not in any way likely to prevent his lynch. And if logic is somehow a GG, then it still doesn't mean all that much.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'll admit that my play yesterday was perhaps not the smartest. But I'm still convinced that Vaughn is scum. Real docs don't tend to survive.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

There's little reason for the doc to protect you or Pooky over another confirmed player. The money'll stay in the town's hands. I see little reason why the doc couldn't have protected Twomz. There's no actual gain in protecting you or Pooky instead.

And are you seriously suggesting that we don't lynch him unless we get a counterclaim or something? Real docs very rarely survive, that still applies to this game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think we need to have TSS narrow down some of his money. Yea, he was a mason, but if he is a scum mason, we're screwed....At the least he needs to get down to the level of Pooky.

I think you mean Nightcow, but this is a mod-confirmed innocence type masonry. And Pooky could still be a GF. I'd feel more comfortable if all the money were in Nightcow's hands personally.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

He also used all of his money to try to lynch this claimed doc.

We went over this Yesterday. It really doesn't mean anything.

As I see it, logicticus never really went after Stoofer/Vaughn, but distanced himself with such comments as he made, because he didn't want to be tied to his scum buddy. He certainly didn't go after Stoofer/Vaughn in such a way that it really says anything about his alignment, if anything I think it makes Vaughn look scummier.

And may I ask what the point is of letting people that claim doc survive if you don't even think it's strange that they survive the night TWICE? Yesterday you may have had some point, but Today, nope. It wouldn't be worth it for the mafia to let the doctor live.

And I can tell you that if I were mafia, I'd have killed him by now. Yes, it would perhaps make me look bad in that case, but it'd have made me look bad sooner or later and we'd be able to move on.

And I seriously considered just ignoring my strong suspicions of Stoofer/Vaughn, because I was afraid it would only backfire and get me lynched instead. But I don't see what's anti-town about making a stance and be willing to go against the current.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Yes.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

And I was so successful in my attempts to get him lynched Yesterday, right?. I know I have very little chance of convincing you guys and the mafia probably does too.

And I believe I'm the only one who's really shown that he wants to lynch Vaughn.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

When I read the thread to catch up, wasn't Twomz our paranoid Cop? That's what I beleived, so I didn't think saving him would be as worthwhile as saving a confirmed mason.

But Nightcow was a lot less likely to be targetted. There's no one person that truly needs to stay alive, so the doc can try to protect other players in the hope of actually preventing a kill and thereby making him(/her?)self more useful than just keeping the one person alive. Especially if you were the doc, then they'd always be able to kill you and then Nightcow anyway.

I particularly don't like CES's attitude towards this game. I think town clearly has the advantage here, due to the fact that Nightcow has all of the money.

So if we slowly weed through the unconfirmed/unknowns, we'll eventually win this game.

Actually it's not that easy. Right now we have 2 confirmed players. We might be able to clear 1 or 2 more based on their claim. As it is, it'll probably come down to the endgame. But if the doc successfully protects, then we're looking much better already. That's another reason I don't believe the scum let you live.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Pooky, keeping a fake doc alive helps the scum find our real doctor. And Vaughn is pretty much doomed anyway. He's not gonna survive to the endgame.

That said, I don't think I'll convince anyone anyway and there's probably still 3 scum left, so I suggest we drop this issue for now.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well both BJ and tss haven't been confirmed yet or anything, right? I don't think I'd mind if they had a little less cash, because, well Nightcow got plenty and the only actual reason to give him more would be because we have two unconfirmed players with somewhat high amounts. I don't really see the harm in them getting down to a normal cash level.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why? Nightcow is more confirmed than Pooky. I'd rather have Nightcow richer for now, just in case.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

BJ, as I see it, if there's a scum mason or the possibility for a scum mason, the mod doesn't explicitly state their innocence. On top of that, the set up so far seems quite balanced and a scum mason would completely screw over the town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well with Help I'm a bug dead, I'm personally more worried about the possibility of Pooky being a GF.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I approve of the lynch of the deflective CES.

Deflective? I've stated my reasons, I just don't feel continuing the argument is in any way useful. I'm not going to convince you guys and there are other scum out there.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I just went after Mr. Stoofer. I didn't really see much reason to go after logicticus(until he basically confessed to being scum, that is). But I've admitted that yesterday was not my smartest play. I expected docs that don't die to be, you know, suspicious or something.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'd rather not claim if I can help it. (I have my reasons.)

Let's summarize your suspicions of me(correct me if I've left anything out):
1. I went after the claimed doc.
2. I didn't go after logicticus.

My defense:
1. I don't see being willing to take a stance and being willing to take the spotlight as scummy. I've given reasons, which I feel are valid, and I would not hesitate to stand up for my reasoning again. Doc claims are too often seen as a freebie pass and I see it here too. Outed docs are no longer power roles and I'm not going to be especially afraid of lynching 'em, especially not one that has already survived two nights. And I know this is WIFOM, but have you ever seen a scumbag actively try to lynch a doc in a non-lynch-or-lose situation, because I sure haven't? I don't see how my play benefits the town.
2. I admit that I should have kept my eyes open for other scum and that I failed in that aspect, but can you really say there was a case against logicticus? I never saw any serious suspects besides Stoofer/Vaughn. Is it then not logical for me to go after him?

And now I will re-read and try to catch some scum for the town(besides Vaughn of course).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also, I totally hadn't noticed it was so close to my lynch, else I would have spoken up sooner.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Not even taking into account the cash situation, I feel the most scummy players are tss and BJ.

the silent speaker:
1. was a vocal supporter of the Thoth-lynch
2. has called several people suspicious without giving reasons
3. didn't go after logicticus
4. received an "offer" at a convenient time

BJ:

1. no contribution

1. continuously stated his innocence
2. calling people suspicious without giving reasons
3. deflective whenever talk of his riches came up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also, if Vaughn isn't scum, feel free to lynch me.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Victoire!

Nightcow, I think you played a good game. The list of 5 you made included all 4 scum. You only made one real mistake and that was trusting Vaughn in the end. Don't feel bad.

In the end the protection was pretty meaningless and it had little to do with either docs or alignment of the player. I'm not sure what decision I would've made in such a situation.

BJ, claiming a town win for yourself is stupid. Several people went after the scum, I hardly hold you responsible for either of the three lynches. You played stupidly for most of the game, refusing to spend your cash for no reason. And I sure don't know about the back-up doc comment. Be mature and accept the loss.

Anyway, the reason why I went after Vaughn was because the mafia was in pretty bad shape. All 4 of us were under real suspicion. I felt like drastic actions were necessary, so I decided to play a little gambit, hinting at being the real doc and hoping it would get me somewhere. It didn't work as planned, but it did allow for Vaughn's non-death those first couple of nights to have an explanation. I'd certainly do it again.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Of course, also, well done, Vaughn! Kudos to you.