BBM's Large Werewolves -- (Fin?)

[Magister Ludi]

Scum

Korts

"Man, pacman is all over the place. I'm curious to see how that wagon will happen.

VOTE: dramonic"

This vote is terrible. You suspect pacman weakly (I think?? I'm not sure what you read on him was when this was posted, as it is so horribly unclear) and then say you're 'curious' (why? To what end) to see what happens to him.

No firm statement on anything, and then a seemingly unrelated vote on dramonic.

Kiwi

: "What would make pacman claim on hist first post?"

Does it matter? If you think he's town, why bother asking this really open ended but leading no where question? I dislike this post

Need Adressing

Low-Key "I am apalled.

Vote Pacman

I have several good reads atm. Will weigh in later."

Why are you witholding your reads? If they are so good, it is probably a beneficial idea to share them. The only reason I don't consider this post/your play worse is that I've seen some of your posting before, and I wasn't overwhelemed. (Re: Mafia Discussion etc.) You need to explain yourself.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: Korts

-----
Also, dramonic and several others are right, claiming anything at all in your first post is very anti-town. There is no reason to do it, and it eats away at the number of potential players that have power roles for scum to target.

That being said, I've seen enough players do it now as ACTUALLY vanilla town that wagoning him to death is not a good move, and should depend on how he plays. If he and another player come out equal, that should be the tipping point, but otherwise I'd see fit to ignore it.

[Magister Ludi]

Whats the differnece in your mind between pacman and kiwi, and Low Key (@ Darox) I consider all three pretty much have the same play style.

[Magister Ludi]

So you think all three are 'bad' players, and want to policy lynch them ("lynching on principle") but then you say it is unprecedented to vote lowkey? What about pushing a policy lynch is unprecedented, and why did you vote Lowkey over the other two (which was the crux of my question towards you, since you consider all the same)

And using open ended ambigious words like 'uneasy' is not pro-town. What about those posts don't you like? (Btw, You happen to also suspect a player I identified as scum. )

[Magister Ludi]

Didn't see that post. What about Korts do you read as being town, and explain why my vote is 'lazy' when yours is a vote park on a player whom you admit is 'bad', and is probably going to be an easy mislynch target no matter that game.

[Magister Ludi]

That was excessively long winded to say a rather simple statment.

I like Tajos post a lot. His reads are what I was thinking as I read each post.

I also agree that asking questions, being active and sticking a finger in the honey is much more likely to come from town. I think empking is pretty solidly town at this point.

[Magister Ludi]

So I take it you either think Tajo's reads are wrong, (which ones?) and Empking is scum. In either case, I am almost sure you're wrong.

[Magister Ludi]

If by 'deflective bullshit' you mean 'inquiring into why he made that particular read' then you are right.

And asking for explanations on peoples thoughts on other players isn't scummy at all (especially when it is yourself).

[Magister Ludi]

Because I think tajos reads are right and empking is town (zmuffin).

[Magister Ludi]

POOKY

The goal of the game is to catch scum.

You do this by looking for actions that are "scummy" and voting for people who commit them.

Saying someone is behaving in a "town" way does not really help because you can't win the game by catching townspeople. In fact if you are town and making a geniune remark that Person A has solidified himself as a townsperson because of so and so, you make him an easy target for the scum.... example: (Hey everyone thinks Darox is a townsperson! He's not in our scumgroup, this means he probly wont get lynched, we better get rid of him! at night)

Your opening statement is correct, the goal of this game is to catch scum and then lynch them. I don't think anyone is denying this. However, your second statement about declaring other people town is clearly wrong, and if that is your primary reason for voting me, (which it appears to be based on your long case) your vote is flawed and wrong.

Declaring lists of town reads with explanations is very town. For one, if enough people agree on this read (like you stated) then this person comes to effectively act as confirmed town, allowing them greater leeway to attack people doing scummy actions without being worried about retributions or 'omgus' or any other such thing. And, this presents a great problem for the scum, as they now have to weigh whether to kill a player people read as 'town' or try and hunt down the power roles. Infact, appearing so town that scum have to nightkill you after already catching scum is 100% optimal play.

Now, if you get enough of these people with mutual town reads on eachother, you form an extremely powerful pro-town voting block that scum cannot crack. Combined with other power roles out there, and town is in a very powerful position. In this case, scum are probably going to lose.

Why would a townsperson want to do this? Makes no sense to me, far better to keep notes on who you think is town privately and only share if the person is getting close to being lynched or seriously considered as a lynch possibility.

So it's much more likely that you're a scumbag trying to buddy up to a townsperson by saying how you agree with them and how you think they r town. Hence my vote on you Ludi.

Read the above section. Also, if people disagree with your read, and you get them to explain it, you can either convince them of the players townniess, which is a definite plus, or they can convince you to stop viewing a this player as town when you shouldnt be.

Pooky, what you have defined as a 'problem' is what I define as optimal town play, and extremely pro-town. I dont think anyone will disagree with me on this

And as you stated, this is why your vote is on me. I view this as a absolute terrible reason for a vote. It is compltely anti-town, and actually quite hyopcritical, because what you accuse as a 'scum action', undoubtably you yourself have commited in countless games yourself, and countless other players are doing in this game.

[Magister Ludi]

Korts

You're largely sheeping and echoing others and spouting game theory platitudes, and the rest of your actions aren't particularly pro-town either. You're doing to Pooky what you tried doing to Darox earlier: interpret a vague or even implicit statement either as something you can easily debunk, or as something discrediting in the eyes of the town.

No, actually, what i've been doing is giving my reads and then backing them up. As I voted you first off, you can hardly call that sheeping (though you appear to anyways), and you are obviously a good enough player to understand that about half a game has to agree on something entirely subjective (whether a particular action by a particular player was anti-town enough to lynch them over), so agree with other people is not a scum tell. I hardly believe I have been echoing other players, despite this.

What i've been doing is essentially cutting out the implict twisting statements people make and lay them bare. They only come off as 'scummy souding' when they are, infact, that.

If you make direct statements about some player, it is hard to interpret. It is only when, like you say, these statements are intentionally 'vague' and hard to understand (in an effort to imply an action is scummy without stating it or attaching yourself to that position,) can they be exposed.

Anyways, your logic here I disagree with, and throwing out a few nice sounding words against me does not a case make. I think my vote is in a good place here.

[Magister Ludi]

Pooky, the point is, you begin building a list of mutual town reads and pro-town block. I stated this when I explained and answered your post.

Secret Project (replacing evilpacman?), I format it that way to make it exceedingly clear what I am talking about with it being washed away as so often happens.

[Magister Ludi]

Anyways, I still believe Korts is scum, and the only thing that might shake this outside of his own play is the fact that LowKey is now on this wagon, and I don't have a solid town read on lowkey at all.

Kiwieagle is a definite strong second choice for scum as well. Generally weak reasoning, and I haven't seen him take a firm stance on anything or push really hard on anyone, something I interpret as scum not wanting to stick their neck out.

[Magister Ludi]

Usually I just use those boxes to organize my thoughts and respond to a specfic point. It definently helps focus myself. I'd rather not stop if I can avoid it. If I am specfically adressing you, I will not use the boxes, if that makes it easier. (If you really actually hinders your ability to play this game, I can stop using them.)

I just reread kiwieagle, and it is even more terrible than before. There needs to be an L-2 wagon here, and not on low-key. I've looked him over. Low-key doesn't have the feeling of scum (he is too sincere, and looks to be actively trying to help) and this wagon has grown rather too quickly for my liking.

Who are his buddies?
Where is the counterwagon?

This doesn't look like a typical scum lynch at all, unless you want to argue that all his buddies are bussing him because they consider him an inferior player (which I think is unlikely, considering there is a goodly number of other viable people to attempt to lynch that isnt their buddy)

[Magister Ludi]

(kiwi I dont understand your question. Prozac, I hate quote boxes, really.)

[Magister Ludi]

The fact that you were so timid about it, without directly establishing a point or drive behind it. If you had said, "well pacman claimed, I think he is scum because of X", then there would be something there. But you didn't, you asked a question for no apparent purpose, without an attempt to really establish yourself one way or the other. That is scummy. And you haven't done anything since then)

Bringing this up on page 14 after I first introduced this on page five is too large of a time lag. Did you just read it the first time because prozac quoted it?

[Magister Ludi]

That seems to me like hoping that someones (mine) suspicion of you would blow over without anybody noticing it. Thats not town mentality of proving my attack against you unfounded, its a scum mentality of trying to slip through unnoticed.

Can you give me someone you think is scum? Do you still think low-key is scum?

[Magister Ludi]

So your only read is that low-key is not scummy enough to hammer? This is terrible play.

[Magister Ludi]

You just said that about three posts ago, kiwi, when you stated

"Also I feel lowkey has done some scummy things, but not enough for me to hammer him him tbh."

So I don't know why you are denying that.

And you have shown that you have no other reads on anyone in any way shape or form in this game because multiple times I have asked and all you give back is, 'well... lowkey is scummy..... I could hammer....derp??'

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, I'd still prefer a Korts wagon, but that doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Kiwi needs to die.

Unvote

Vote: Kiwi

Also, Dana this statement, "there's no way we can keep this guy around, honestly, even if he's town"

is clearly incorrect. If someone is town, then you should do everything possible to keep them around, not try and kill them. Not to mention randomly self-metaing against another player isn't the greatest case I have ever seen before.

[Magister Ludi]

You have had and have no reads and seemingly come 'alive' when a vote is placed on you.

Who are your top two candidates for scum?
Who are the two most protown people in the game?

[Magister Ludi]

Flameaxe, I think you missed my vote for kiwieagle several pages ago. If abreviations don't count,

Unvote
Vote: kiwieagle

Kiwi has still not answered the simple question I proposed to him about scum reads, and is actively doing nothing (and wants dram killed out of the blue for no apparent reason)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I still dont understand why there is a wagon on lowkey.

No one has really been able to answer who his scumbuddies are or why there is no counterwagon (unless lie I said the scum think he is so bad as to bus him into oblivion for no town cred)

His role is actually useful and not worth lynching over in the abstract on day 1. If at anypoint he is nightkilled, he gets his shot anyway. If he is still around on day 3 or four and people want to lynch him because he is the scummiest person (note, I actually think he is pretty town), we lynch him and have him shot the next scummiest person.

On both fronts, play and role, I see no reason lowkey should be lynched over such other beautiful butterflies as kiwieagle, Korts, or even pooky (who has gone missing).

[Magister Ludi]

Seraphim, I don't understand how this statement is helpful at all, and I don't particularly like it: "Are you trying to goad me into hammering? I'm already voting you, dumbass."

What were you hoping to achieve by simply calling him scum again and then threatening a hammer (which you then note you can't deliver because you're already on the wagon)?

And that particular post came two posts after you said you were going to respond to The Fonz about whatever after 'mowing the lawn'. Which never seemed to materialize. What happened to that?

[Magister Ludi]

Can you give me someone you think is scum? Do you still think low-key is scum?

Who are your top two candidates for scum?
Who are the two most protown people in the game?

He asked us who would we lynch and my answer was Dram.
If you want me to explain all you needed to do is

ask

and I will get back to you with scum reads either tommorow or when I get home today.

By the way, its a vengekill, not a lynch.

I have asked, you never responded once, but now you want to lynch dram? Thats scummy.

You say I never asked before, when I did.

So you scum reads (obviously implying you knew I asked) (negating your own earlier statement), like dram, but dont have time to explain them even though you just said you could explain them??

Lynch here people.

[Magister Ludi]

I don't have a lot of time over next few days. Going to be NO Access until Saturday night. (pacific standard time.)

Anyways, the pop kill was really interesting and town-sided because pop didn't think he was going to die so suddenly and thus didn't have a chance to hide his intentions on who he was pushing on and calling town. What's better, he left a list for us.

THE "I THINK YOU ARE TOWN BUT ONE OF YOU IS PROB FOOLING ME" LIST
1. Darox
3. The Fonz
4. Empking
9. Oman
12. Magister Ludi
15. evilpacman18

I'm almost sure that all of the people in here are town, and if not all, then maximum one scum buddy. Assuming a team of 4 or 5 (five being way over the top but meh..) with tajo being scum himself, leaves around 3 scumbuddies for him to pocket in. I actually don't think he put any in here, and all of these people have been playing pretty pro-townish. Its certainly where I

won't

be looking for scum.

THE "DIESCUMSUCKDIESCUMSUCKDIESCUMDIESUCK" LIST
10. Dramonic
13. kiwieagle
16. [Low Key]
17. Korts

There is probably only one buddy in here as well. Lowkey obviously wasn't it, and he was pushing VERY heavily (second suspect) on kiwi as well. I actually think now kiwi has a less chance of being scum. Dramonic he also mentioned a bit as being scum. The only person that he didn't mention or push hard but shows up here is Korts.

I think it is highly likely he is scum. (Reasons are earlier in iso as well)

Vote: Korts

THE "YOU NEED MOAR INPUT AND HUGZ" LIST
5. danakillsu
6. andrew94
7. Prozac
8. Lowell
11. Seraphim

18. zMuffinMan

19. Maxous

Two or more lie in here. I'll give some people of interest a read, but more likely focused on dana. (and a few others.)

[Magister Ludi]

Unvote
Vote: dana

Just back from v/la. Based on Dana's play This wagon makes me happy.

I still think korts is scum, and possibly with pooky as well.

[Magister Ludi]

I'm not of the opinion that we should allow players to lurk simply because they may produce 'awesome results/town reads/etc' at some undetermined time in the future. If they are town, they should start producing scum reads now, and help argue against the voting of people they think are town.

I'm not entirely sure where the town reads on pooky are coming from, as nothing I can see so far argues for the fact that he has a town win condition. Just because people are semi-lurking doesn't mean that they get town reads from me, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

In that regard, it would be very helpful if lowell, andrew, pooky and a few others began posting more

As for kiwi scum, I have since come away from that based on tajo's scum list, which I think could be quite useful to track down the scum. He was pushing on kiwi when there was no reason to bus a buddy in that situation, even stating simply 'kiwi is scum'.

I am pretty certain in the reads I posted when I went over that list. Most certain of korts. Among other reasons, There is no way a player as well versed as tajo makes a scum list with no scum in the scum section.

[Magister Ludi]

huh? Tajo flipped scum, and a basic assumption I make when someone flips scum is that they know who their buddies are.

And if we assume that he knew his buddies, then it is very unlikely he was trying to push lynches on the select 'weaker player' out of the entire pool of them that happened to be his scum buddy.

[Magister Ludi]

You're wrong. Having someone as your second suspect is indeed advocating for their lynch, as tajo was doing with kiwi.

kiwieagle +1 for random not scumhunting question

what kind of quesstion is this?? +2 (directed at kiwi)

oh you (kiwi)

THE "DIESCUMSUCKDIESCUMSUCKDIESCUMDIESUCK" LIST
10. Dramonic
13. kiwieagle
16. [Low Key]
17. Korts

hint: kiwi is scum

next scumpick is one of kiwieagle, korts or dram

[Magister Ludi]

I would have enjoyed more of this kiwi suspicion day one and less of the lowkey suspicion, but at this time I am not sold on him being scum anymore. Suspicion seems forced. I also disagree with the tajo-kiwi buddy speculation. It doesn't come across as that.

I would still like these questions answered Kiwi:
Your top two scum reads
Your top three town reads

[Magister Ludi]

I'm with Empking here. Magister Ludi, you've been around long enough to know about 'scumbuddy second' right? Tajo did not expend one iota of effort to get Kiwi lynched. Not one. He said Kiwi was scummy, but that's not the same thing at all. He put kiwi on a 'scummy list' along with two other players and LK, but he didn't put any pressure on Kiwi or ask any questions or say anything along the lines of 'Kiwi tomorrow, regardless of Low Key's flip.' I would disagree with the notion that Tajo 'pushed' any of Korts, Kiwi and Dram. He left it open so that he could push any of them the following day.

Yeah, he did leave it open. However, one of the players he never mentioned in his entire iso except putting him in that 'scummy' slot, that being Korts, and the other one in kiwieagle he many times called out as being scum. I still think his play here is horrible and not very pro-town at all, but based on his interaction with tajo I'm uncomfortable with lynching him.

And I also don't really find dramonic very scummy, or town for that matter, but I'm not of the opinion he should be wagoned here today.

You're not one of the three stooges nor one of the "going to read up and provide some stuff at an indeterminate future date" crowd
Why did you vote danakillsu? Don't spare on any of the juicy details. Protip: Try to avoid "Because Fonz said..."

Who are the three stooges in this game? (And why would I be saying "because the fonz said so...?")

At the time of my joining this wagon, the following players were on it. Darox, empking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Seraphim, Fonz. Four out of the five players already on this wagon I had town reads on (excluding pooky), and when four of my town reads agree on something I generally find that a very good sign to join the wagon. I also disagreed with a lot of the things he was saying on day one, and I didn't really read him as pro-town at all, hence why I was happy with voting him at the time.

Example --->

Urrrgh. There's no way I can even begin to read LowKey's recent posts when I get sick just looking at the number and length of them. There's no way we can keep this guy around, honestly, even if he's town (which I REALLY don't think he is). BTW, I had a brief period in some game way back where I was scum and I got accused of some things, and suddenly my posting tripled in size and length. I think that's what's going on here. He thinks a lot of content will look pro-town.

[Magister Ludi]

Actually,

Unvote

for now.

Yeah. So apparently, you knew I was Anya Stewart, but didn't think that made me not a werewolf?

The preceeding quote by dana implies he thinks the entire scum team is werewolfs, when in fact we have nothing backing this statement up or not. The fact that a cursed villager flipped scum may mean the entire scum team is cursed villager, or some hybrid.

Am I alone in this thinking that dana unknowingly proved he has no insight (by the fact he thinks all scum = werewofl) into the composition of the scum team? Thus, not scum?

[Magister Ludi]

So cursed village equals werewolf in your opinion? I thought werewolves would flip just that, as werewolves.

Notice how dana made the same mistake I did (unless I'm reading it wrong)

[Magister Ludi]

Dana, can you give your top reads and some other information you think is worth sharing?

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: dana

Trying is pro-town.

Simply tossing out a few unbased reads and not following up on them is the hallmark of mafia play.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: XRECKONERX

[Magister Ludi]

xReck, we haven't actually lynched a scum, our vengeful townie shot one (out of spite almost), which is a huge distinction.

I would like to hear your reads on the four players who you said you would be looking over before 'Saturday'.

[Magister Ludi]

Reck, who is the scum on your wagon then?

~~~

Yeah, I don't see how town can not not lynch you Reck for a multitude of reasons, but If you are town right now, I am interested in your reads, especially on dramonic.

~~~

I was toying with the idea that maybe the werewolves don't have a kill, and can only win by steadily increasing their numbers and then taking control of the town.

[Magister Ludi]

xReck needs to die.

But, I am interested in every player at least having a chance to post today for a multitude of reasons, opinions on topics, potential role anything, town reads, so this wagon should not be hammered home yet.

In that time frame, Reck, you have a chance again 'to help town' like you want to do by providing reads on players you know well, played with before or whatever. I'd like a gut opinion on dramonic beyond simply 'null'.

~~~
I'm not a big fan of pacman throwing out who is scum on the xReck wagon with no basis and on a wagon that he is going to be joing (or if he isn't its because it was already hammered and he didnt get on in time).

~~~
I'll also give kiwi wagon/push a reread, in conjunction with the Lowkey wagon and see if any similarities are there.

Kiwi push on day two was pretty bad in my opinion considering what we got from Tajo, and there probably exsists the opportunity of scum hoping on there to avoid being on the dana mislynch.

[Magister Ludi]

Why are you asking what happens to xReck after he essentially becomes cult-recruited onto the scum team?

[Magister Ludi]

Are you guys insane or scum? I told you not to hammer without at least everyone posting, and actually getting more discussion.

[Magister Ludi]

Vote: Maxous

[Magister Ludi]

[Low Key] [10] (

Darox,

Korts,

Seraphim,

populartajo,

Lowell,

danakillsu

, empking, evilpacman18,

Prozac

,

[Low Key])

Kiwieagle [2] (andrew94,

Magister Ludi

)
Seraphim [2] (

The Fonz

, Maxous)
evilpacman18 [1] (dramonic)
danakillsu [1] (zMuffinMan)
Magister Ludi [1] (PookyTheMagicalBear)
Maxous [1] (Oman)

Explanation coming soon. I think it is highly likely that there are two scum with empking, pooky, and Maxous (and maybe an outside chance of seraphim.

Also, vote counts color coded below.
~~~

danakillsu [9] (

Darox

, empking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Seraphim,

Fonz

,

Lowell,

xRECKONERx

,

Magister Ludi, kiwieagle

)
kiwieagle [3] (andrew94,

Prozac

, Oman)
Seraphim [1] (Maxous)
evilpacman18 [1] (

danakillsu

)

Not Voting [2] (dramonic, evilpacman18)

xRECKONERx [8] (

Magister Ludi

, Pooky, Maxous,

Darox

, Empking,

Prozac

, Oman,

The Fonz

)

Not Voting [6] (

xRECKONERx

, Seraphim (V/LA), Lowell, andrew94, dramonic, evilpacman18)

[Magister Ludi]

Eh, that didn't format correctly.

Explanation coming soon. I think it is highly likely that there are two scum with empking, pooky, and Maxous (and maybe an outside chance of seraphim.

Also, vote counts color coded below.
~~~

[Low Key] [10] (

Darox,

Korts,

Seraphim,

populartajo,

Lowell,

danakillsu

, empking, evilpacman18,

Prozac

,

[Low Key])

Kiwieagle [2] (andrew94,

Magister Ludi

)
Seraphim [2] (

The Fonz

, Maxous)
evilpacman18 [1] (dramonic)
danakillsu [1] (

zMuffinMan

)
Magister Ludi [1] (PookyTheMagicalBear)
Maxous [1] (Oman)

danakillsu [9] (

Darox

, empking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Seraphim,

Fonz

,

Lowell,

xRECKONERx

,

Magister Ludi, kiwieagle

)
kiwieagle [3] (andrew94,

Prozac

, Oman)
Seraphim [1] (Maxous)
evilpacman18 [1] (

danakillsu

)

Not Voting [2] (dramonic, evilpacman18)

xRECKONERx [8] (

Magister Ludi

, Pooky, Maxous,

Darox

, Empking,

Prozac

, Oman,

The Fonz

)

Not Voting [6] (

xRECKONERx

, Seraphim (V/LA), Lowell, andrew94, dramonic, evilpacman18)

[Magister Ludi]

Also, pooky voting for andrew with no actually inclination or care that he maybe be a werewolf is pretty scummy.

[Magister Ludi]

Fonz, this quote by pooky:

we should kill andrew in memory of darox


vote andrew

Implies to me that he would rather lynch andrew than lynch scum, because he hasn't expressed any interest in lynching andrew before and doesn't give a reason he is doing so now.

Dana wagon may or may not have been towndriven. But the fact remains that three of my biggest scum reads were ON the wagon in an early position. Its quite possible three were on, (but note, maxous was off)

And, I'll color code just how I please!

~~~

Fonz, whats your read on empking? I'm leaning scum here, and the more I read, the worse it gets.

~~~

Empking, why are you voting evilpacman?

[Magister Ludi]

unvote
Vote: empking

[Magister Ludi]

1. Because, empking, this is all the reasons you think evilpacman is not town four days into the game

1. His claim looks like a gambit.
2. Even if its true he'll just drag the town down.

2. Because you're scum.

[Magister Ludi]

For one, you push on someone I don't think is scum for very minor reasons that aren't really relevant or anti-town at all at this point.

Your push looks like scum trying to get a mislynch with exceedinly weak reasons, so yeah, I'm going to vote you over that. Even when I asked you why you thought evilpacman was scum, in case you had actually had valid reasons, you stonewalled me, not giving me any of your thoughts, and just telling me 'he's scum', as if thats should be so obvious to me and everyone else (he's had no votes since day one) that I should just drop everything and join your wagon.

[Magister Ludi]

Reason no 2, makes you look bad. This is what should happen to you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvz86Gvz53I

What in gods name has that video got to do with anything.

[Magister Ludi]

Yeah, I thought it was obvious I was mocking his rediculous reason to vote evilpacman by throwing the same reason back at him.

[Magister Ludi]

eh, I don't have a spell checker, get over yourself.

[Magister Ludi]

Fonz, you will happen to notice that Maxous fit into that same boat, off two townie lynches, on the scum one.

Also, I assume that if people don't present reasons, a la pooky, they don't really have them. Haven't played with chamber either.

Eh, I'll write out some more pointed thoughts on empking and MAxous (and pooky and sera) if needed, but its all there in the Iso, and I'm not really feeling omanscum much either.

~~~

I agree that several players are acting worse than useless, EPM, andrew, dramonic, lowell, but I think there are players who have been acting anti-town more so than these guys. They probably won't be nightkilled either, so we'll have to confront it sooner or later. Still, I don't think lynching them today is the right move. (unless you think all the remaining scum are within that group)

[Magister Ludi]

Fonz, thats hardly true at all. If I don't see reasons presented to me, I assume its because they don't have them, not because they have a wonderful super awesome case that they've typed up but just don't want to show to anyone.

[Magister Ludi]

Are lowell and dramonic still in this game?

[Magister Ludi]

uhm, yes?

[Magister Ludi]

Dramonic, the kill last night was apparently the town cop, why would I be dead over that?

~~~
Empking

1. I think his reasons for voting evilpacman are exceedingly weak. Firstly, he never really explained if pacmans claim was a gambit why he would more likely do it as scum then town, and secondly, empking never extrapolated at all the reasoning behind his statement that even if pacmans claim was true he would "drag the town down."
a. why would he drag the town down?
b. has he dragged the town down like you predicted?

2. His votes have all been pretty bad. He fosed darox and kiwi on day two, voted lowkey and dana, and called tajo a 'strong town read'. Now, it isn't necessarily a scum slam dunk tell if basically every read you have had in the game is wrong, but reading his iso gave me the feeling he was applying just enough pressure in the right places against the townies to get them lynched and/or heap suspicion upon.

3. When I asked him why evilpacman was scum, he wasn't at all interested in sharing whatever reads led him to that conclusion or and doesn't appear to be very interested in actually trying to force that wagon through. If he was town, I would expect him to be leaping from the rafters trying to convince people to join his wagon on scum, but that hasn't happen. It smells like a weak vote dump.

4.

You're voting me because you disagree with me. And you have the arrogance to attack my reasons.

No, I'm voting you because I think you are very much scum. I am not sure what you are trying to strawman here. Disagreeing with someone is not a scum tell unless it is over some piece of logic or issue that has a large chance of making someone scum. And yes, because your reasons absolutely are horrid, i'm going to attack them as a scum tell. Crap reason or no reason is anti-town.

~~~

Fonz, I didn't think i'd have to be having this argument here either. If you present no reasons for a vote, that means you don't allow other townspeople a chance to agree with you reasons and join the wagon on who you think is scum, and I strongly believe that presenting reasons is pro-town. Not doing so is anti-town.

[Magister Ludi]

3) Aside from the claim, has anything Pacman's done this game given you reason to believe he's likely town?

No, but nothing has made me think he is scum either. Sure, that is a good reason to lynch if nobody was acting more anti-town in my opinion, but because people are, I'm not willign to lynch here. Note, I'm not the only one not willing to lynch pacman, Maxous has a town read on him.(a town read that needs to be explained)

Now, I don't think he's sufficiently bad to lynch solely on the basis of that (that honour is saved for mastin who single-handedly kills town morale), but when a player who has also given you reason to think he might well be scum isn't going to be of any use if he's town anyway, that for me lowers the bar for lynching them as contrasted with a player who appears to be scumhunting and making connections etc

If we were powerlynching because of playstyles, the person I would want gone is andrew94, (followed by empking), but I don't think the is a valid way of finding mafia unless we've hit all the mafia (or wolves) except one and just want to remove the players we're worried about and also haven't actually done anything.

Fonz Argument with Ludi

And again, that's ridiculous and I can't believe an actually competent mafia player, and one who's probably town barring a massive Reckgambit is coming out with such drivel.

If I came out and said FOS: Lowell, do you disagree that I probably don't have awesomes reasons, because if I did, I would have provided them? Especially is the reasons still aren't forthcoming after prompting. Because if I prompt someone (empking) to try and convince me why evilpacman is scum, and then still don't get any reasons, I assume he had no real reason for his intial vote, and having no reasons for a vote seems much more likely to come from scum trying to hit a mislynch than town honestly convinced they've found scum.

~~~

Also, for oman, I'm not really seeing the reasons he is scum. I've reread him, and while there isn't much there, there isn't much there that I disagree with. I'm not of the school of thought that we should assign scum points to somebody because they didn't help town, in fact it should be the opposite. He was actually trying to rally as was I against the terribad lowkey wagon, and the dana wagon, and then he was on the reckoner scum wagon, but lets be honest, if he had been away for 10 hours more reckoner was being voted down anyways.

[Magister Ludi]

Darox, empking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Seraphim, Fonz, Lowell, xRECKONERx, Magister Ludi, kiwieagle

I still maintain that there are probably two scum there.

~~~
Actually, hold on.

Oman, can you state why you were on the kiwi wagon day two?

[Magister Ludi]

opps. It should read, "I'm not of the school of thought that we should assign scumpoints to somebody because they DID help the town, in fact it should be the opposite".

What I was trying to say is being off of the town wagons on Lowkey and Dana (like Oman was) does make me naturally inclined to read them more as scum than town. (This may be a difference with you.) I usually find it more suspicious when somebody is on both town wagons, but then off of a scum wagon. (and I don't really count the reckoner wagon one way or the other)

Now, thats not to say I can't find fault with his reasons and justifications for not being on those wagons, but in the abstract, I think it is a weak argument to pin someone as scum for being "too right".

[Magister Ludi]

Seraphim, catch up?

Pooky, anything?

Lowell, got some reads?

andrew94, who is scum?

[Magister Ludi]

Andrew, why do you need some link to normal roles? This is a theme game for one, so that hardly applies. Also, can you lay out your day one reasons for suspecting dramonic again?

~~~

Evilpacman, so you think there are two scum out of Seraphim, Maxous and Empking like me then? Awesome, vote one.

[Magister Ludi]

Pooky, I haven't. In general though, if I vote without saying anything, but then am prompted, I'm happy to give reasons.

~~~

Andrew, what people are 'cleared' that shouldn't be cleared, and why?

~~~~

Not Voting [5] (evilpacman18, Oman, Prozac, andrew94, dramonic)

VOTE OR DIE

[Magister Ludi]

Cool, then they should vote.

[Magister Ludi]

Fonz, yeah, Oman being on that terrible kiwi wagon day two is perhaps the only thing that would make me switch over to him.

Andrew, why aren't you voting? Are there any questions still outstanding that you want answered?

[Magister Ludi]

Also, I'm now happy to wagon either seraphim, or Maxous as well, though I prefer empking of course.

[Magister Ludi]

I could probably take some time to do them, but when I've already explained a rather lengthy case for my vote on empking, who I am most sure of being scum of, I think I am justified in not spending hours on the other two people (you and Seraphim).

~~~

Plus, you missed the crux of that argument. It's anti-town when you provide no reads and then when asked for explaination/follow up you still provide no case.

[Magister Ludi]

I have no idea on pooky, though I can say right now I wish to god he was playing better/making more effort.

Andrew, just to confirm, this is you reasoning for voting dramonic:

"dramonic, who just quotes the first useless part of dana's post, and completely ignores his vote."

[Magister Ludi]

porochaz, you realize the votecount actually looks like this:

danakillsu [9] (

Darox

, empking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Seraphim,

Fonz

,

Lowell,

xRECKONERx

,

Magister Ludi, kiwieagle

)

so its not 9 suspects, i'm actually talking about three in particular.

[Magister Ludi]

Lowell, are you even reading this game?

~~~

Why does this game feel so slow? why aren't people posting anything.

[Magister Ludi]

Lets wagon empking and have a festival while doing it.

[Magister Ludi]

Finally some action.

[Magister Ludi]

um, Dramonic, What are you talking about?

Pacman is pretty obviously a VI, any votes on him will be met with a sadface an frustration from me.

Sooo, you don't like the empking wagon, but you say anyone voting pacman will be met with fustration (and possible a vote), but empking voted pacman. How do you reconcile these two things?

ML is pants-on-head non-town.

Hardly. I've acted in a way I believe that is probably the most pro-town of anyone in this game. What pages of this thread have you read?

@ML: Your reason for suspecting Maxous is basically contradictory to your belief that the wagon on Reck cannot be analyzed. However, he is scum. How do you explain your read? Also, why do you provide wagon analysis that has been tampered with and try to use it as evidence to condemn Emp/Seraph/Pooky?

What are you talking about? When did I connect the two? Why are you saying Maxous is scum but not voting him? When did that become the reason for me wanting maxous dead? What analysis has been tampered with? Darox died as a cop (I assume) and he made some pretty pointed statements about two players being town. I have no idea where this is coming from.

If someone can provide a concise case as to why Emp is the leading wagon I'd like it.

I posted a pretty nice one about 3 pages ago, well within the 10 pages you claim to have read.

Vote empking. Or die.

[Magister Ludi]

It's a forward-facing thing, if the people on EPM don't remove their votes they'll get flak. I wasn't "there" earlier to establish EPM's status as a VI, but I'm there now and I confirm he's a VI and doesn't have half the smarts to come up with fakeclaiming townie in his first post as scum.

I think evilpacman is town anyways, what I'm pointing out to you is that you're not voting empking despite him fitting the criteria you've already established.

~~~

Well, the post makes a ton of sense and is hardly the nefarious beast you make it out to be when you realize a 'not' is missing, specifically:

What I was trying to say is being off of the town wagons on Lowkey and Dana (like Oman was) does

NOT

make me naturally inclined to read them more as scum than town. (This may be a difference with you.) I usually find it more suspicious when somebody is on both town wagons, but then off of a scum wagon. (and I don't really count the reckoner wagon one way or the other)

I think Fonz covered this already (?)

Spoiler: Green

Also, counting yourself as green in votecount analysis and then giving that to the town saying "oh look, these three are special there must be evil in there!" is pathetic in the way that you are just as likely scum as any other in there (and for that matter are more likely) and yet try to provide evidence that pretend it's not the case. Your evidence is tampered with in that it ignores your own existence and treats you as confirmed town. Considering oneself town is fine, presenting evidence for the town to use that would indicate you are is scummy as fuck.

I basically brought up and destroyed Reckoner (with some help from himself) single handed, so, yes, I considered myself way more town than most people in this game. I've seen you play with DGB before several times as well, and I don't notice that you complain as loudly or as longly about her including herself as confirmed town in her 'scumputer', so this argument from yours is bunk on several levels.

And yes, Darox called Fonz and Lowell town in all likelihood, what's your point?

erm, he flipped cop. So they are confirmed innocent? What are you implying?

Is your case 882? It's just the same point 3 times in a row. "Emp says Pacman is either awful town or gambiting scum", "Emp won't explain his vote on pacman" (wait, didn't your point 1 just DISPROVED THAT?), "His reasons for voting Pacman (which I just said in point 2 I didn't know, but I disgress) don't please me so he's scum!"

No. Empking throws out no reason for voting evilpacman intially, I prompt him, he says he explained it already, I read that crap reason (which can't hardly be called a reason), and ask him if there is anything else beside that. When recieving a no, I conclude that he must be scum, because that 'reason' is so bad and almost nonexsistent that it can't come from town, something
a. you concluded yourself
b. stated you would look disapprovingly on anyone voting pacman

and thus I voted him as scum.

[Magister Ludi]

@ Mod, prod on pooky and oman

[Magister Ludi]

Dramonic, listen closely, I voted Reckoner at the start of day three, after having pressured that slot all gone, after which is when he exploded. READ the damn start of day three.

I misread it at first, but after rereading it it's not just you contradicting yourself about Maxous scummy and Reck being non-countable, it's just you contradicting yourself within a single post. Read the underlined post. The original idea with Maxous is that you seem to hunt by, VCA and indicate within your nonsense of a post that being on both town and off reck is a scummy thing. Which is exactly what Maxous did not do. Yet he's in your suspect list. Logical reasoning would say he should be in your townreads, so when you're done trying to use an argument with gapping holes in it come back.

This is your argument?

Maxous was off both town lynches and on the scum one. Yes, this isn't why I think he is scum. I have other reasons why he is. I never said this was the reason. I think I pointed it out to other people suspecting Oman for doing the same thing and commented about how rediculous this was for a scum tell. It should not be a scum tell.

Fonz, you will happen to notice that Maxous fit into that same boat, off two townie lynches, on the scum one.

Here is where I pointed it out.

I think Seraphim, Empking and Maxous are the most probable candidates for scum, but all for different reasons (some overlap, yes)

My criterias are based on aknowledging my possession of what I consider reliable experience with said Pacman, I don't expect people to know of this before it's mentionned.

So people can commit said scumtells before you mention it, thats all fine and dandy and you won't get on their back, but after you mention that you will 'frown upon it', you will immediatly FOS and vote anyone who does said action? No, this doesn't add up. If something is a scumtell to you, its a scumtell no matter when it happens. If pacman is always an easy lynch and scummy players always push it, and empking pushed it, than that should be a scum tell to you.

No. Because a player does it does not justify another doing it.

I am saying that you are picking and choosing what to make an issue of. In all likelyhood, you may not find an issue with DGB because you are town in those games and see no reason too, but as scum (not leaning here but still ???) in this game you will try and find something that is rather null and blow it into a huge scum tell.

You brought it up?

Cop breadcumbs two innocents, I believe him. You don't?

oh hi twisted words, how are you today!

So you don't find empking scummy? What did I twist?

[Magister Ludi]

He exploded because he thought you were softclaiming cop, which is a pretty silly thing to do. Please stop pretending you somehow pulled off a great reveal, he just fucked up his shit.

But if we were buddies together, he would know I wasn't softclaiming cop, and thus, wouldn't have exploded! You dispute this? (Are you actually trying to fish what I was softclaiming, by the way?) your whole logic goes to tank.

Why do I need to give reasons for maxous being scum when I have given several for candidate number one empking?

Are you DGB?
I don't think you are.

So you pick and choose between games what to find scummy, and in your town games with DGB you didn't find it scummy. Gotcha.

Also, why do you provide wagon analysis that has been tampered with

Did I ever call him (Darox and his investigations) into question?

hmm.

Do you expect me to call the people voting you for claiming scum, unaware that it's your idiocy and not you being scum that provoked your claim?

Lets see. If scum always push on him when he fakeclaims scum as vigilante (as you imply happens with EPM), and people push on him when he claims scum, then yes, I expect you to call those people pushing on him scum.

~~~

I can't believe all this illogic I am seeing before me.

[Magister Ludi]

traitors don't know that now do they?

He flipped straight werewolf (who are the scum in this game!), not traitor, read the damn thread and death column of the first post, he fakeclaimed traitor to save him self (unsuccessfully)

Because you are hardcore pushing against not providing reasons.

I push against this when someone votes someone else their primary target and then when prompted does nothing. I'm far more concerned with empking right now, why waste time scribbiling up walls on Maxous when I want empking lynched?

[Magister Ludi]

I never said I was the best, only the player who has acted as arguably the most pro-town. Plus, if/when I get nightkilled, people will still have my suspicion and push on maxous (and sera, and empking, and some of pooky,) left. You can iso them yourself in that case. Now, if empking isn't being lynched, and Maxous needs to be, i'll do something.

He flipped straight werewolf (who are the scum in this game!), not traitor, read the damn thread and death column of the first post, he fakeclaimed traitor to save him self (unsuccessfully)

Did you miss the bit where your logic is destroyed?

[Magister Ludi]

it's not scum, it's uninformed mass.

So if people do said scummy thing before you ride down on your unicorn to inform them, they are 'uniformed masses' but if they do said scummy thing after you tell them, they are 'scum'. This doesn't work dramonic, and you know it.

[Magister Ludi]

Reck's flip is irrelevant. The way he mentionned the mechanic could be factual, in which case he became a wolf and he is a traitor flipping his new role. OR you could, I don't know

, bus

?

ALERT: HE FLIPPED WEREWOLF

. He did not flip modified scum traitor nonsence. He was LYING.

So i'm bussing, but I'm also third party? (Also, I was bussing, and reckoner knew this and decided to just claim scum and die when he knew I was scum with him? This is so bad its funny)

He's ringing my third party bells.

~~~

It's cute how you try to use meta against me but when I use meta to explain something you say it's bullshit <<

Wtf does this even mean?
~~~

What are you even saying here? Your logic and reasoning is so warped the gods are crying. The reason you thought I was scum was me missing a word on something that I wasn't even calling Maxous scum for, and you're being deliberatly obtuse on several things, (why is it you've settle on Maxous out of my four scum reads, why is it you want a case on him when I'm voting empking), I caught Rekoner scum, called lowkey and the day two kiwi wagon town correctly, have been generally protown (my opinion I guess, but I think others could back this up), and you decided I am the most scummy out of every player here and vote me? Do you have any other

thirdparty

scum reads you would like to share with us?

Maybe the fonz is my scummybuddy?

Anyways,

Fos dramonic

[Magister Ludi]

reread left me lacking any opinion on Prozac which worries me.

Well, he did claim vig, and did claim to shoot kiwi, thats pretty towney to me.

Oh deadlines friday, I should probably put my vote down at some point.

empking..... ?

[Magister Ludi]

I actually agree with that line of thought by Maxous.

~~~

Where did dramonic disappear to after his flurry of posts? Back into hiding and hoping one of these lynches goes through over the other?

~~~

Empking, I think i've provided pretty damn spanking good reasons for voting you, just because you disagree with them doesn't mean they're any less valid. You're not the most verbose poster, by from time to time giving it a shot could do wonders for me getting a town read on you.

[Magister Ludi]

Soooooo... who's going to be the deadline lynch?

[Magister Ludi]

I wish you would vote empking.

[Magister Ludi]

FOS: Dramonic andrew94 Seraphim

As cult recruits (Where in gods name did a cult in this game come from)

FOS: empking, dramonic, Seraphim and Maxous

As mafia.

meh

Vote: dramonic

Maybe this will get more traction than empking. Willing to wagon most of them.

[Magister Ludi]

I like how Ludi is thinking me and Seraphim are both mafia and cult.
You'd think a cult recruiter would die if he tries recruiting mafia, for balance purpose.

What I did was FOS everyone not on the Oman wagon as being possible cult recruits (seeing as how it would be pretty stupid of them to hammer their cult recruiter nobody knew about.) You happened to not be on the wagon. Don't get grumpy with me about that.

I also pointed out each player I thought was doing the most anti-town things as likely mafia. I also notice how you specifically dodged our conversation at the end of the day there yesterday, and now pop up with a vote. Reread my lost post addressed to you please.

~~~

andrew, why did you say no cult recruiter would want you?

[Magister Ludi]

Woooosh. A wagon!

Unvote
Vote: Andrew94

[Magister Ludi]

@Ludi: Btw, how exactly did your opinion on me change from "prob town" to "scum and/or cult" during the night?

This is a pretty bad statement. My last several posts of the day all concerned you, and I think I was pretty clear with my suspicions of you by end of day yesterday, and you STILL haven't explained the several questions I posed towards you.

Why are we assuming one cult/one scum? Im assuming 2 cults given the diseased townie aspect.

It makes a ton more sense if we have one semi-weak cult and a regular mafia group. You were in succession mafia with Flay (that contained two cult groups), and you know the level of town power roles that was evident there to counteract cult that is not at all aparent here. (re: no power roels counteracting cult that I can see so far)

Magister Ludi: When you said "willing to wagon most of them"1050 - who were you not willing to wagon?
Also is Andrew not voting Oman your only reason for thinking he is cult?

I'm willing to wagon all of them.

Thats one reason to think he may be cult (and its a very good reason actually), but the way he came out and self-depreciated his own skills makes me think he is cult who got recrutied by wants to prove he didn't by saying he 'sucks' essentially. I'm willing to vote down any anti-town faction there is (I guess he could be mafia as well, but it seems less likely)

I'd still prefer a wagon on someone I actually think is mafia, but I'm willing to take out anti-town players one by one as well.

~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, I think either Dramonic or Ludi is cult but not both of them.

eh? Can you explain this a little more.

[Magister Ludi]

Mate, its (shrug).

Hammer then.

[Magister Ludi]

And all that jazz *doo doo da doo doo doo doo.*

[Magister Ludi]

heh, Mafia had to use a kill on Lowell, the 18 post wonder.

A wagon!

Vote: Dramonic

Back to reading this game.

[Magister Ludi]

You're the only one who has ever pushed me, and I think thats because you're scum trying to push a mislynch, as you still haven't answered a few of my questions and my logic that disproved your case near the end of day three.

Also you're trying to appeal to fear now (no Ludi wagons, means XXXX!) when there is no reason you should probably be going down that path at all if yo uare town.

Whats your read on
1. Empking
2. Seraphim
3. Maxous?

[Magister Ludi]

Erm

[Magister Ludi]

Holy cow six anti-town among 19 players.

[Magister Ludi]

May I request to know who reviewed this.

[Magister Ludi]

Fix your final votecount, it should read as ....pooky, empking, dramonic.

[Magister Ludi]

Well, town got basically the optimal result from its power-roles, and still lost, I'm kind of bummed right now. Its not often I lose without realizing its LYLO.

Plus, that cult recruiter flip was such a monkey wrench its not even funny.

[Magister Ludi]

Fonz, ITT we realize that unexplained reads, are, in fact, scummy (re: empking and pooky)

[Magister Ludi]

Meh, andrew probably needed to die one way or the other. There was an outside chance of being mafia or cult (or so I thought), and I didn't particularly want him around at lylo based on his play and play this game (little did I realize Lylo was the next day).

And the next day was Lylo and no one realized, and scum quicklynched out of nowhere, plus I was voting for scum. I thought my reads were pretty good after getting andrew out of the way, having empking and dramonic as a team (I guess I didn't think of pooky yet, but that was many days down the track).

~~~~

I agree almost 100% on the cult thoughts.

[Magister Ludi]

No wonder Oman was so apathetic to this game, he had a very low chance of victory.

[Magister Ludi]

Well its not just five scum vs town, there is a cult thrown against town as well. Now, in the middle of the game, town would have no idea what modified meant, and I think justifiably (given how many cults there are running around these days), thought about lynching cult, which bought the mafia even more time to win.

Maybe if you had changed the name, or revealed the win condition upon dying (since he lost already) or something would have helped out a little bit.

[Magister Ludi]

Well essentially the cult leader lost when he died, because the only way for him to win would be to have recruited two or three town players, have them all survive until lylo, and then lynch the scum and Oman would win because he's got all town alive and his win condition was met. If he recruited a solitary scum bag, he would probably lose, because as soon as the scum won a lylo battle the game would be over with one town vs one scum and the scum wouldn't need to kill the town to win anymore.

Maybe release his role pm at the beginning of the game, or something along those lines.

[Magister Ludi]

Other than my few issues with the setup, the modding was great, and I enjoyed many of the players in this game.

~~~~

Who remembers the low-key train wreck all the way back on day one? Oh man, there were some fun times to be had in this thread

[Magister Ludi]

Thats because you were scum....

[Magister Ludi]

Hey I got reck!