Into Africa - Over

[ZeL1nK]

VOTE: DeityKabuto

He's always a good policy lynch.

[ZeL1nK]

@Anyone saying PLs are bad.... Even if DK is town, he's far more harmful to town than scum is. Seriously. No jokes.

[ZeL1nK]

Who should I vote for if I want to look more town?

Snarky?

[ZeL1nK]

Unvote

VOTE: Flavour Analysis

#50, #51, #53, #60, #61... Whatever, just every post he's made.

[ZeL1nK]

Hey, I'm not saying Flavour's town or anything, but c'mon, that's a bit vague/lazy, don't you think?

Yeah. It is.

Unvote

VOTE: Snarky

[ZeL1nK]

Add Llamarble for sheepin. Others too but meh.

There are sheep in Africa? I think you mean anteloping.

[ZeL1nK]

I don't think he claimed it for 'no reason'. He obviously thought he was dead and was genuinely frustrated.

[ZeL1nK]

Fate thinks you're scum and you claimed VT because you thought it was a gambit.

[ZeL1nK]

I'm with Fate here.

post 78-thinks they've been daykilled
post 80-Ellie "confirms" this suspicion
post 82-responds to "confirmation"
post 83-Finally claims

No reason to wait that long if they were going to claim. (which is the bad move. always.)

VOTE: FA

What are you on about? That happened within the space of 3 minutes.... How was that a long time? Post-wise, maybe. But context is an amazing thing.

[ZeL1nK]

Why not do it in the same post?

Because it's Ranmaru? Never seen Ranmaru play before?

[ZeL1nK]

Where was FA role fishing?

[ZeL1nK]

cirno is town. Snarky is still scum. With Amrun.

[ZeL1nK]

Ze, why is amrun scum?

#100 was bad -

"No, I am not glad Ellibreth bit you, but you are scummy, so it's okay."

Amrun acknowledging that FA is town but saying it doesn't matter because he's scummy.

#178 - fluff to jil, wants FA to 'hang' but doesn't vote for FA, says her vote on me is going nowhere but thinks bandwagoning Snarky is going to go somewhere, hops on the Snarky bandwagon for no reason

#190 - Oh look, immediate unvote of Snarky (guess that one wasn't going anywhere either) and a hop on to FA for a poor reason.

Also gut.

[ZeL1nK]

@silavor,

Situation is a bit different, here. FA is a hydra and probably expected a longer game than 4 pages. Being frustrated with a dayvig on page for is a bit different to the situation you linked. Unless you're suggesting this was an elaborate ruse by ell-scum and fa-scum? Also #121 looks like really genuine town frustration.

[ZeL1nK]

@Amrun,

What part of my post/s was/were OMGUS, and why did you find it amusing?

What part of my post/s imply that I know FA is town?

The sentence I quoted does indeed implying that you know (or at least think) FA is town. You didn't say it didn't matter because he's scum, you said it didn't matter because he's scum

my

. If you thought he was scum, you wouldn't have said you weren't happy with his vig. If you thought he was scum, you also wouldn't have cared that he didn't have a chance to claim. And if you thought he was scum, you would have found it odd that he claimed VT, and would have made a much bigger deal out of that than you did (as it stands, you haven't once mentioned his VT claim).

[ZeL1nK]

I'm tired, so pretend there are no grammar or spelling mistakes in that post. ty.

[ZeL1nK]

@Amrun,

Also, assuming you really did think FA was scum, why did you not vote him in #178? What about Snarky's wagon did you think was going places as opposed to FA's wagon?

--

@Snarky,

Flavour Analysis (6) - earworm, vezokpiraka, HezLucky, elvis_knits, Fate, Amrun

null->scum, town, null, null->town, town, scum

[ZeL1nK]

@ZeL1nK: So in general you think FA's wagon is legit and generally led by town... Then I really can't figure out why you defend him.

Uh...

"Legit"? No.

Led by town? No. I have town reads on that wagon, but I wouldn't say it's being "led by town". And even if it were "led by town", if I have a town read on FA, why wouldn't I defend him? Or are you saying that you think I should just antelope my town reads without considering my own reads?

P-edit: mmm I beleive Ellis claim. I find him generally town, and DK is a good player to investigate, 'cause he is unanalysable

Do you actually believe Ell daycopped DK?

DK isnt' "unanalysable", he's just VI. Still very readable. Also still a very good policy lynch, regardless of alignment. #254!! #272!!!!!!! #272 is especially funny after he notes that scum "always" claim VT.

[ZeL1nK]

also pacman is town

[ZeL1nK]

I've played with DK a few times now (though never with DK-scum) and found him easy to read each time. There are certain aspects (like his aggression and how he reacts to suspicions of himself) that make it rather obvious to me. That said, I don't have a strong read on him yet, but it's still early times.

[ZeL1nK]

There is a point where DK's presence actively harms the town.

Yes, and that point is from the moment he enters the game right up until he exits it.

But that doesn't mean he's hard to read. It does mean he's a good PL, though.

[ZeL1nK]

@silavor,

There's just a lot of crap here to sift through.

To whoever had issues with someone's antelope claim, go read the thread again.

I chuckled at the irony here. You don't even know who said what about who (and no, vezok's claim wasn't a continuation of my joke). It looks like you're only just now 'sifting through the crap', yet you ask others to read thread again.

Woah woah woah. Slow down. You suggesting we've got a five-man scum team?

Was Pere having 5 scum suspects really the only thing that stood out to you here?

[ZeL1nK]

Woah woah woah. Slow down. You suggesting we've got a five-man scum team?

Was Pere having 5 scum suspects really the only thing that stood out to you here?

Also not seeing where Pere implied it was a 5-man team...

[ZeL1nK]

@ZeL1nk: OK, if you can read DK easily why would you want to lynch him? I get his play is bad, but if you could possibly get a town read on him later and be fairly confident of this why would you want him gone now?

DK is the kind of player that will vote instantly at LyLo/MyLo without regard to what's going on in the game.

I'll give you an example.

O307, the game went to LyLo and scum self-hammered after slipping up horribly. What does DK do? He comes into the thread (here), votes for someone that is already dead (flipped town), then says "Whoops" and votes for the only other townie alive at LyLo. The game was already over, thankfully, but this is an example of why you really don't want DK around, even if you're sure he's town (and they were pretty sure he was town on D1 - it didn't stop him from being deadweight, though).

That's 5.

Yeah, but he didn't imply it was a 5-man scum team.

[ZeL1nK]

elvis, can you read silavor in ISO and tell me what you think?

I was getting massive scum vibes from him even before his "slow down..." post to pere. Interested in why you thought he was town prior to that.

[ZeL1nK]

But you don't defend him or answer the questions for him,

HE IS TOWN, he can answer alone.

Not sure where I answered questions for him, mind quoting that for me? If I think someone is town, I'll point it out when someone is attacking them.

That said, I've bolded the part that I find really, really interesting here. The big statement "HE IS TOWN" looks like a slip to me.

[ZeL1nK]

Actually, looking back, I might be taking that out of context, but it still caught my attention when I read your post.

[ZeL1nK]

You haven't been drawing much attention to yourself. It's easy to overlook someone in the heat of the arguments taking place.

Calling it OMGUS doesn't lessen the fact that you've posted virtually nothing but fluff. I'd go so far as to say you're active lurking.

[ZeL1nK]

Neither Fate nor earworm asked any questions. I was pointing out why I thought they were both incorrect on things they'd said, not answering questions for FA...

How is that any different to what other people have done anyway? And why is it a bad thing to do?

[ZeL1nK]

I never voted you. And I don't see how it was OMGUS. That term gets thrown around way too much.

[ZeL1nK]

ugh

Prior to #338, I was about to unvote Snarky and vote silavor. But that. That makes me want to keep my vote where it is.

On silavor

,

I've read him in ISO twice now (it's a really, really short ISO).

It's void of any real content.

A vote on me for 'trying to look town', fluff, fluff, more fluff, insistence that I'm still scummy, hasn't read the thread properly in ISO#10 (essentially making this

another

fluff post), ISO#11 the only thing he has to comment on is that Pere has 5 scum suspects and silavor thinks Pere is implying it's a 5-man scum team, since then no comments or responses on anything to do with this, and suggesting that I'm OMGUSing for pointing out that he's really scummy, as though that lessens the accusation in any way.

No scum hunting, no real contributions. Looks like he's coasting scum.

How are people getting a town read on him?

Actually, screw Snarky.

Unvote

VOTE: silavor

[ZeL1nK]

@silavor,

It was not a roleclaim, but vezok clearly claimed Antelope. You said he was joking about his Antelope claim, Seacore was correcting you.

@elvis,

1) There are a few people that I'll suggest a PL on every game I'm in with them. DK is one. andrew94 is another. But I don't ever seriously push it. I just suggest it for discussion/reaction purposes.
2) It was a joke, clearly.

[ZeL1nK]

I don't think PL's are inherently scummy. I don't really agree on PL's, since I'd rather keep and work with a dumb townie than waste the lynch, but I know people who agree with you and I understand. I do think it can be exploited by scum, but it's not inherently scummy. Early game I saw more talk of PL's than scum hunting, which is what worried me.

I was dipping my feet in the pool and checking the temperature before I dived in.

That, and I'm lazy, and discussing PLs always generates some sort of discussion. Plus I don't mind looking 'scummy' early. I find I read the game better when people are attacking me.

[ZeL1nK]

Seriously, when you make a case on someone, you expect THIS PERSON to respond to it.

No, actually, when I make a case on someone, it's open for discussion, and in fact, I encourage people to discuss any case I make. Pick it apart, tell me what you do or don't agree with, it'll help me get a better read on you.

On the other hand, there are times when I'll ask someone a question and want only a response from them, not speculation from other players. But I didn't answer any questions on FA's behalf, so this isn't the case.

[ZeL1nK]

Oh, DK.

[ZeL1nK]

That was actually a claim in a different game, though. He's already claimed VT twice this game.

[ZeL1nK]

@Hez,

I just want to make sure... Are you suggesting that you can't possibly see any way that FA could be town after his claim? And what are you going to do if FA flips town?

You're asking unnecessary questions (I'm just waiting for you to "catch me in a slipup" like you claimed before) and distracting me
from scumhunting (in fact, your consistent asking of pointless questions that have already been answered is distracting from the case at hand). I don't really care much for this exchange either.

Are you actually going to do any scum hunting or are you just going to sit on FA all day explaining that he can't possibly be town while complaining that ckd is distracting you from finding scum?

[ZeL1nK]

Amrun, DK, Cirno are probtown. The rest of your shady list I'm OK with.

[ZeL1nK]

Amrun has been looking more town to me in her recent posts. I've never played with Amrun-scum, but her reads/reasoning and the other things she's been saying lately make me think this is Amrun-town.

DK is DK. Honestly, he's a special case, and has special town tells for me. Aggression against aggressors (OMGUS and anger) is a town tell for DK - he legitimately thinks this is scum hunting, no joke. Although, this is a really weak town read for me right now. He's not playing obv-town like I've seen him be before, but then again, he's not getting as much pressure as he usually does (I think he gets lynched D1 like half the games he's in...)

Cirno is town for me based on gut.

[ZeL1nK]

Well, that's good to know. Just make sure you don't stop believing it.

In other news, posts like #400 are why Cirno is the strongest town read I have. Not really, but I felt like making a pun.

[ZeL1nK]

can you be more concise with what reads and reasoning do you agree with?

Amrun's ISO#13 (mostly the last part) and ISO#15 in particular.

Why is she shady for you? All I see is "she attacked easy target FA".

i assume you have played with him before, can you point out where he has showed this behavior?

Any game he's town, which is most of his games so far. I've only seen him flip scum once, and there was none of the OMGUS-aggression that he displays when he's town.

Just off the top of my head, Open302 which recently finished had him telling everyone that if they thought he was scum, they were scum, because he was a VT. It's hilarious... but sad at the same time.

this is not a valid answer for page 16, try harder.

Sure it is. I don't particularly care whether you agree with me on this.

[ZeL1nK]

@earworm,

ISO#1&#4

[ZeL1nK]

I'm pretty sure Amrun is saying that silavor is scum and is throwing a temper tantrum because elvis's reason for suspecting him isn't legitimate. That's how I read it.

[ZeL1nK]

Someone link me to one post with silacase or something with silascumz please?

My ISO#30 is why I'm voting him. Summary: Haven't seen any real scum hunting from him, no real contributions or content, he just looks like he's coasting scum.

[ZeL1nK]

I've got to catch up on what's happened in the last day after some sleep, but #497 made me laugh hard. silavor has expressed no suspicion of Snarky all game...

What right does silavor have to say the line, "hoping that we'll just forget about snarky"?

[ZeL1nK]

@GI,

You have to tell me that you have town reads on half this wagon, name which players, and then give me reasons why. 'cause this wagon is radioactive.

Since I still think silavor is a good lynch, I'll anwer this, too. pacman and seacore I'm sort of null on, but the middle of the wagon (elvis_knits, Amrun, populartajo, Llamarble) looks town to me. The end of the wagon gives me bad vibes, but that's more a probably-bussing-for-town-cred feeling than a scum-seeing-an-easy-mislynch feeling. Llarmable's #498 is exactly what I was thinking when I read silavor's #497.

Do you have a town read on silavor for any other reason than looking at the wagon? Do you have specific scum reads on the wagon apart from Snarky, or is a gut thing?

--

@silavor,

Re: #504,

So you explained why

other people

are voting for Snarky (because some of Snarky's earlier posts "

seem like

subtle rolefishing"), but you didn't actually express your own opinion on the matter.

Others have already asked you this, but I'm going to repeat their questions anyway.

Do you think Snarky is scum? Why/why not?

What are your reasons for thinking earworm is scum?

If you think Snarky is scum, why did you vote for earworm? More specifically, if you think this wagon on you is to distract from the Snarky wagon, then why are you also distracting from the Snarky wagon by voting for earworm?

[ZeL1nK]

earworm is the 9th person in the silavor wagon.

[ZeL1nK]

Is it consistent with hezlucky's meta to rely so much on meta reads?

He claims he can't be meta'd, so I'd say no. He at least hates when people try to use meta against him (as he's already stated in this game).

He's trying so hard not to get lynched

And this, dear herbivores, is why earworm is scum.

You have no idea how many times I just face-palmed.

This still doesn't answer any of the questions asked of you, because you still haven't explained why you initially voted for earworm (that post came a page ago; unless you're a psychic, I'm going to need a bit more explanation than this), and you still haven't answered any of the questions regarding Snarky. Plus that's not even a good reason to think he's scum.

Stop dodging the issues and start answering the questions.

[ZeL1nK]

Hrm, Silavor townmeta 1156 does provide an example of "how does this thing I did make me scum?"
I can see Silatown now.

What does this even mean? I get that you're referring to mini 1156 but after that you lost me.

I had a quick look through his ISO there, and surprise, surprise, he actually hunts scum and he actually plays like a townie there. Is there something in particular in that game that makes you think he's town here?

[ZeL1nK]

DK is easily readable. He was my RVS vote and I gave him being a good policy lynch as the reason for this. I've also explained already how DK being easily readable doesn't make him any less harmful to keep around.

If you wanted explanations for my reads, you could have asked (hint: others have, and I've answered them).

Your argument about me caring about town opinion makes no sense, considering I was voting you well before anyone but pacman did. But yeah, I did want to make sure that people would be OK with it because durrrrrrrrrrrrr I personally can't vote 13 times.

You have been active lurking. Saying you were stupid-posting doesn't make this any less true. You weren't posting your thoughts on everything, and you've blatantly avoided answering almost all questions posed to you. A prime example of this is you claiming you had shown suspicion of Snarky at an earlier stage of the game when you really hadn't. There's no scum hunting in your posts prior to #557. It

is

active lurking.

You're right that I had my vote on Snarky for a while. What of it? Are you asking me to explain it, or are you just saying it's scummy because you said so?

I made a case against Amrun, but she was never more suspicious to me than Snarky was. The only reason I made a case against Amrun is because someone asked me to explain why I said what I said (hint: yes, this does indeed work. I will answer you if you ask me to explain something). She later became a town read based on her responses and other posts by her (and based on experience with her in other games, I'm reading her as Amrun-town, which I've already explained). I'm not seeing how this was adjusted to go with the flow when very few people were calling her town.

And yes, I am focusing on you. I thought that was pretty obvious that I want you dead. You're still scum after that post. You're just scum that's trying slightly harder to avoid being the D1 lynch.

[ZeL1nK]

although it could be from scum who realized his current playstyle isn’t working…

This.

[ZeL1nK]

elvis, how can you think vezok and pacman are town for their clams/townslips but not FA? pacman's 'townslip' was based on FA's zebra claim. Unless you're talking about a different town slip here. Like yeah, I can understand that you have problems with his play, but he's town.

On another note, I count 4 VT claims so far on top of a VT being day-vigged. That can't be a good thing.

And really... Why wasn't DK day-vigged?

[ZeL1nK]

ebwop: claims even, though I'm sure their clams are very nice.

[ZeL1nK]

No, it's nothing to do with whether or not he's useless, GI.

Fact is, he's the only person who has claimed VT so far that has not claimed an animal, and he also tells us that scum always claim VT.

If any useless lurker needs to die, why not DK? At least pere hasn't been actively working against the town. Like, really,

Do you or anybody have an idea of who might have vigged the guy?

Vezok's Antelope claim was dumb, now scum know the VT role.

This guy was kept around? Really?

[ZeL1nK]

I think in his mind, he was claiming to defend FA. Which does make me think it was indeed a townslip.

[ZeL1nK]

L-2 is pretty close to L-1. I think. I haven't played many games so I could be wrong about that.

[ZeL1nK]

If whoever killed pere was a day-vig, and wasn't a 1-shot, DK would be a good kill any time soon. He's still the only VT claim that hasn't claimed an animal (which I'm finding more and more suspicious in combination with his "scum always claim VT" post), and he's still the most anti-town player in this game.

I still think pacman is town. At the very least, his hammer doesn't make me feel any different about him.

Interested to see where GI goes with this ckd vote.

I want to take a bit of time to read over the end of yesterday and the beginning of today again. A lot of people have come out hard against derp-hammer-without-claim, and people are ignoring Snarky right now, when just about everyone seemed to want his blood yesterday.

And VOTE: Hezlucky because this bandwagon gives me an enormous erection. And because he's scum.

PS: Don't pull this "I saw you there" crap, FA.

[ZeL1nK]

Zelink, you aren't worried that Pacman didn't even consider what role Silavor may have had?

No.

Why exactly are you trying to deflect from Pacman to Snarky?

I'll let you try and put two and two together, here.

Hint: town read on Pacman, scum read on Snarky

[ZeL1nK]

Step 1) Kill elli
Step 2) Accuse anyone who says you're scummy of framing you
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit

No.

Although if I'm allowed to vote multiple times, I'll gladly put a vote on both you and Hez.

[ZeL1nK]

Okay, can we examine then why Snarky thought it necessary to go on the defence, using WIFOM against a non-existent attack?

It kind of came out of left field.

So I comment on how I find it strange that people are attacking derp-hammer when everyone was so sure Snarky was scum yesterday.

And then I get a tyrade about how I'm scum and yes, it looks like he killed Elli, and yes, he had every reason to kill Elli, but I'm scum because... I dunno, I sorta got lost here.

His post made me giggle like a little girl.

[ZeL1nK]

Earlier I recall Pacman making a related statement. What do you think of this

Wait, are you comparing pacman making a WIFOM prediction D1 to Snarky saying he was framed and it just

looks like

he's scum because he had every reason to kill Elli last night?

These aren't similar at all.

lulz ZeLink, I love how you fake to not understand step 3, for it's the most important.

That one went way over your head.

If you just had plainly voted me, I wouldn't have a problem. It's the fact you said "hey guys, remember Snarky exists" without voting that makes my theory work.

What theory? And does this theory extend to you "liking" the llarmable wagon without actually voting for llarmable?

[ZeL1nK]

I read your theory. The summary is this: I think you're scummy, but I haven't fully explained why, and I'm not voting for you, so I must be scum.

Congratulations. You've built a solid case on me. I shouldn't have been so obvious.

[ZeL1nK]

So who on the ckd wagon actually thinks ckd is scum and why?

[ZeL1nK]

I think I wet myself

#826-#828 is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time

--

.

The underlined is wifom too.

Ya, and? The two things share nothing else in common.

pacman, on D1, said he thought scum would NK Fate to frame him.
Snarky, on D2, said zel1nk-scum

DID

NK Elli to frame him.

Completely different.

Btw Zelink, besides Hezlucky, who do you feel is scum now?

I suppose you mean apart from Snarky? I'd look at the people with little content next. There's probably scum somewhere there. I can't really be more specific than that without reading up on each of them.

You said you were going to re-read, how is that going?

It.... will happen... I am very, very lazy.

--

You're voting a DEAD PERSON YOU FUCK

That actually makes me think this is DKtown. Yes. He votes for dead people as town. He's also (as town) accused me of being a serial killer in an open setup with no serial killer. And he also votes for people he's not suspicious of just to be on the bandwagon.

[ZeL1nK]

I think I have the most valid reason for voting Hez out of that lot. And I see no problem with any of those reasons. They are all legit.

Yeah but, what do you feel about Pacman's wifom prediction? What is the purpose of saying that?
It's coming soon, right? What do you think of Atil?

pacman's wifom prediction means nothing. If he's town, the purpose of saying it would be because he felt it's true, I guess. If he's scum, the purpose of saying it would be to look like the town version of this. Why are you asking me? Ask pacman.

As for my analysis, it's coming. In the next 24-48 hours. If all goes well. Don't get your hopes too high, though. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to analysis.

As for Altil, I don't know. I haven't really looked at him. I'll put this on my to-do list.

[ZeL1nK]

VOTE: GreyIce

[ZeL1nK]

I don't think ckd is scum, at best SK, but I'm not entirely sure. Hyena flavour could be predator, but there's been a lion flip, so day vig kind of makes sense. Don't hyenas steal prey from lions?

I don't really see the point in killing him now, anyway. He's a restricted day vig, we know about his role. Even if he's third party or scum, what's the worst he can do? If he day vigs someone we don't want him to day vig, he's as good as dead, anyway.

What I do want is ckd's full role claim (well, specifically the restrictions on his role that he hinted at yesterday). As far as I can tell, it has something to do with post quantity?

Anyway, GI is scum. I took no notice of him D1 because he was playing like I've seen GI normally play, but the vote on Hez D2 was just bad (derp fate is bussing derp), and looking back on his play, it's been really unimpressive.

[ZeL1nK]

btw, this wagon here:

{Llamarble (3) - elvis_knits, Lowell, snarky}

Had scum on it. Fo sho.

I'd say Snarky is the most likely of the three. Snarky just continues to be unimpressive in every way.

Lowell's lurking as hard as he can get away with, and he would be a good shot for ckd, depending on what the post restrictions he has actually are. Although I'd like to talk through this one after I hear what ckd's restrictions are.

GreyIce still a good lynch today. So very, very, very underwhelmed by his D2 play and he looks like the most likely bus on the Hez wagon.

[ZeL1nK]

Actually, looking back, I don't want ckd to full claim.

This was enough

should read I may ONLY kill lurkers....though I will not provide the length of time they have to lurk before I can scavenge them.

And confirms my flavour suspicions. The fact he used "scavenge" makes me think that he is a day vig who scavenges from lions, and this fits the lion flip flavour.

At the very least, he's a terrible lynch today.

[ZeL1nK]

Also, I know I'm gaming the flavour a lot here, but this:

A old threat has emerged a new, and it will take many different creatures working as a collective to defeat it.

Makes me think it's a single scum faction (lions) and no SK.

[ZeL1nK]

What slip?

[ZeL1nK]

How does that make hyena a town role? Zebras and Antelopes eat grass. Hyenas eat zebra and antelope. They are not buddies.

You act like I said Hyena is a town role, when I didn't. I said it makes sense, based on game flavour.

In any case, what do I, as scum, have to gain from calling ckd town? Unless you think I'm scum with him or something? In which case, you'd still need to explain why I'd be so blatant about it and you'd also have to explain why ckd counter-claimed Hez like that yesterday.

Just getting this straight: You don't think there's any way a Hyena could be town-aligned (even with the lion flip)? And you think the day vigs were done by ckd-scum?

"I don't really see the point in killing a person that might be scum or third party and can kill."

So you read all my posts, and that's your interpretation of what I was saying? Really?

[ZeL1nK]

Your post led me to believe that you were arguing that hyena was most likely to be a town-aligned day vig. Is that not what you were saying?

You know I wasn't saying that because I still suggested the possibility of him being scum/SK.

To be clear, the two possibilities I'm really considering are:

1) This is Lions v Everyone. Hyena is the day-vig (makes sense based on game flavour in general. Also, only a carnivore would make sense as a town-aligned vig).
2) Hyena is a SK. Self-explanatory. They aren't sided with Lions, they aren't sided with town.

I don't think Hyenas are scum with lions. I guess there's the possibility that Hyenas are a separate scum faction with no NK ability.

Regardless, CKD is not a threat at this point, and therefore not a good lynch today.

No. Hyena are carnivores. We have yet to see a town flip that wasn't a herbivore.

We haven't seen a PR flip, either. Does that mean we're looking at a mountainous setup?

Derp, not a good argument.

Hyena are known to eat even lions and vice versa, so I do not believe they are aligned. But neither are town aligned.

This I'll concede as likely. But he's not an immediate threat.

--

Grey (he switched from ckd to hez at a crucial time. Tajo started it, but Grey got it going)

No. He didn't switch at a crucial time. He switched after the ckd wagon collapsed. Specifically after Fate and vezok abandoned it. The ckd wagon was dead and gone at that point. Hez was the only one left on it after GI abandoned it.

You need to re-evaluate this. Go back and look at GI D2...

[ZeL1nK]

@elvis,

It went tajo->fate->vezok->GI(derp "fate is bussing"). Atil joined after that, too. Hez was the only one left on ckd after GI abandoned it.

[ZeL1nK]

I don't have time for anything other than this right now

3. Zelink: why attack the Llamarble wagon and not the CKD wagon?

Because Hez was on that wagon and I don't see his buddies sticking to it when he was a sinking ship. More likely they were on other wagons or bussing him, not so obviously associating themselves with him.

Although I could be very wrong, because he did claim cop, and one of his buddies could have been like "derp I can make it look like I'm sheeping town cop here while pushing a counter-wagon for my buddy". I dunno, it's not something I'm really paying attention to right now.

[ZeL1nK]

I think the seacore wagon is crap. As was the llarmable wagon yesterday.

Which reminds me, I need to go back and look at how the llarmable wagon developed at some point.

Not saying that either of them is necessarily town, but the reasoning here is pretty weak. Although I would like to see them actually participate, and you know... post something... I don't want either of them lynched today.

[ZeL1nK]

Woo post #1000

[ZeL1nK]

No, my criticism of GI isn't that he 'hasn't done much'. There are a lot of players who haven't done much. I think GI is actually scum.

Summary of his D1 play: come in and attack the silavor wagon, back-and-forth with Fate, more attacking of the silavor wagon, and er, yeah, that's it.
Summary of his D2 play: more back-and-forth with Fate, jump on ckd because he smells something, unwillingly votes Hez after the ckd wagon collapses, and er, yeah, that's it.

There's a distinct lack of scum hunting in his play so far, and his reads have been terrible. I get the feeling he didn't actually care about the silavor wagon, despite his 'objections' to it - he never actually pushed a different wagon, he just coasted through the day saying the silavor wagon is bad. D2, his vote on ckd looks like a chainsaw, and the apathetic way he moved to the Hez wagon looks like bussing.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have seacore, who just hasn't posted much worth reading, but hasn't done anything particularly scummy, and llarmable who's virtually the same as seacore. Both of them make easy targets, and while they might actually be scum, I'd rather have them actually post content than lynch them for not posting content.

My scum reads?

GI.

And his buddies.

[ZeL1nK]

GI is scum. vezok is town. Overall, I agree with your VCA.

I'll elaborate on this later. Don't have time just now.

It's mostly to do with the fact GI hasn't strongly pushed a single case on anyone. He's just been coasting by D1/D2, and his 'case' on Cirno is bad. This isn't GI-town.

[ZeL1nK]

I realized that even though Hez's reaction vs CKD can be explained and traced back to FA's claim, it is still scummy that Hez focused solely and heavily on matters related to that claim. His "I can't scumhunt because you're questioning me, CKD" looked much more scummy in that context. That's why I was convinced he was scummy again.

This actually makes me feel better about you. It's the exact same reason I thought Hez was scum, and it's an issue I brought up with him D1 that he never responded to.

--

I'd prefer people slow down with this Seacore wagon. He really hasn't done anything overtly scummy. I'm not a fan of his lurking, and I do want to see what he has to say when he finally catches up, but I don't have any strong feelings that he's scum.

Also, any wagon Snarky jumps on, I'm automatically going to second guess.

As far as GI goes, I'd like people to actually read him in ISO and tell me whether they can agree with this. It helps if you've played with GI before, which I assume most people have.

So D1, we have him come into the game with his spoiler wall, which was lacking in any real content. Criticisms of the silavor wagon straight away based on who is on the wagon.

This here:

So lemme see, obvscum:

EvilPacman
Vezok
Snarky

Probscum:
Llamarble for voting for Silavor. Something doesn't equal four.
Inhim - ISO

Was why he thought the silavor wagon was bad.

But he never strongly pushed a case on any of these 'obvscum' players. All he did was some back-and-forth with Fate, asked a few people to analyse the silavor wagon, and then... nothing. There was no conviction to see this silavor wagon die. There was no conviction to see another wagon start. It was just "the silavor wagon sucks" and that's it.

As an aside, anyone who's played with GI before, have you ever seen him do this as town? Have you ever seen him coast by and not strongly push a case on one or more of his scum picks?

D2, what do we get? Much of the same. More Fate crap, followed by his CKD vote, based on something smelling... He coasts by for a while on the CKD wagon before it collapses, at which point he follows Fate to the Hez wagon, explaining that Fate is bussing. Yeah. No suspicion of Hez, no comment on Hez's play. This kind of sheeping comes from GI-scum. He was mostly inactive for the rest of D2 (not going to fault him or this, I don't think it had anything to do with his alignment in this game), but the one other post he made was a joke to DK, which really wasn't helpful at all.

This is GI-scum. Fo sho. I'm much too lazy to look at GI's scum meta and find out if this actually matches his scum play, but I'm very, very sure this doesn't match his town play and it's just scummy play regardless of his meta.

His case on Cirno is pretty dodgy, and Cirno is still looking town to me in this GI-Cirno exchange. Like he has a point about Cirno's flavour reasoning, but I'm not seeing how it necessarily follows that Cirno is scum...

Also, if GI is scum, I'm pretty sure Seacore is town. Looks similar to D1 "silavor=town" stuff.

[ZeL1nK]

FA – Feels like scum. A lot of the pointed questions feel like trying to get other players to make cases on his targets, or alternatively getting other players to go defending other players. Maybe I just don’t like the style, but it reads as scum to me.

That would be his style.

GreyIce – Apart from GI’s predictable rage against fate, he’s playing one of the strongest town games I’ve seen him play in a while. I just finished a game where we were both town and I’m getting the same vibes off him.

Elaborate on this. Would help if you directly respond to the points I've mentioned about GI while you elaborate.

--

Anyone who's saying they think CKD-Hyena is SK, I want an explanation for why you think he's a gimped day-killing SK with a restriction on who he can actually day-kill. Do you think he's lying about his restriction? Also why do you think he so confidently claimed Hyena?

Re: llarmable and "lion-scum", he really was only suggesting that if CKD is scum, he's not scum with Hez. Although he later suggests CKD isn't mafia. I personally am assuming this is lions v everyone, so I don't really have a problem with this, anyway.

[ZeL1nK]

Because I am entertaining the idea that it's it's lions vs everyone and the Hyena role was designed to look suspicious.

If it's not lions vs everyone, I think it could be a Hyena team that doesn't have a night kill. But then I ask myself why he would claim Hyena if that were the case.

Also, I'm just reading him as town and I don't see him being a SK. Unless he's a day-killing SK lying about his restriction for WIFOM reasons. At the very least, I think he's a stupid lynch today. And you should really consider putting your vote somewhere it actually matters.

[ZeL1nK]

I'm not looking too much into "predator-prey" meaning Hyena is necessarily scum. I mean, looking at game flavour alone:

A old threat has emerged a new, and it will take many different creatures working as a collective to defeat it.

That suggests to me "it" is a single scum faction. But I'm not going to argue it any further with what little information we have.

Do you think he's part of a scum team? Or do you think he's SK? What are your thoughts on lynching him today?

[ZeL1nK]

He's already said he's not scavenging anymore, unless 'everyone comments on it'. I assume he means unless there's a general consensus.

Also, any comment on the 'scavenging' thing. Or do you think Hyena is a 'scavenger' and a 'predator'?

As for pacman, why do you think he's more likely scum than bad? Or is the possibility of 'bad scum' the reason you're voting him?

[ZeL1nK]

CKD has revealed exactly what it is. #951 - he said he's a town-aligned day-vig with a restriction that means he can only day-vig people who haven't posted for 72 hours. Or are you talking about something else when you talk about the "mechanic"?

I don't actually think pacman has done anything scummy. Bad play, yes. Not scummy, though. Although.... Reading back through his ISO, he did say yesterday that he thought one of Fate/GI is scum, and given the Fate-town flip, I would have expected him to at least give some indication that he thought GI is scum. Plus he pretty much active-lurked through D2. I'll look at his ISO properly some time soon, but I kind of overlooked him D2 and D1 I got town vibes from him (even if his posts were bad).

[ZeL1nK]

I'm... not...?

I called him a bad lynch today. I said move your vote to somewhere it will actually be doing something.

[ZeL1nK]

tbh, #1074 was all in response to Seacore's big read post, but it was a general question since almost everyone seems to agree CKD is scum of some sort.

[ZeL1nK]

96 hours for good measure

[ZeL1nK]

I can't believe I read that whole VCA.

Why did I read that whole VCA?

[ZeL1nK]

Oh, god... vezok's ISO#13 and ISO#14. My eyes are bleeding. The rest isn't much better but wow. But that reminds me, vezok is V/LA until the 9th if people want to discuss scavenging him (as underhanded as this may seem). I've kind of ignored him this game and don't really have any strong feelings about his alignment.

As for pacman, ISO#4 is really making me lean town, especially in light of the lion cub flip. Like, no offense to pacman, but this isn't the kind of semi-gambit-WIFOM-whatever-you-want-to-call-it thing I could see pacman-scum capable of pulling off. zebra claim + humans-v-animal crap = pacman-town

The rest of his ISO just reinforces a VI-town read on him. His D2 play was utter crap (there's no content in it, he just pretty much active lurked through D2) but I don't think that's an alignment tell.

And short of him dropping scum tells left, right and centre, there's really not that much that can happen to change my read on him.

I'm liking Seacore's recent burst of activity. I've still yet to see anything from him that makes me think he's scum.

[ZeL1nK]

tbh, I don't see Lowell as scum, either, Seacore. lol. One of us is way off in our reads.

Like this D2:

Are people actually bailing on the llamarble wagon? Why?

... and this D3:

The llamarble wagon totally fell apart yesterday. Anyone want to explain why? Certainly isn't because he actually did something useful.

... after we lynched Hez D2?

I'm having trouble seeing Lowell-scum in the same way I'm having trouble seeing Seacore-scum blatantly sheeping Hez's cop claim. Like their actions make no sense if they're scum.

01 Amrun
04 GreyICE
08 Calcifer
17 snarky
19 DietyKabuto
24 earworm

I'm thinking remaining scum lies in this list. I have too many town reads though, and I'm probably wrong about 1 or 2.

And, oh yes, DK is a very strong contender for scum now. I have never seen DK-town be this stupid and I have never seen DK-town sheep this badly. I'm not seeing any of the aggression I'm use to seeing from DK when he's town. Passive, sheeping DK looks like DK-scum.

[ZeL1nK]

If you'd rather see vezok vigged more than Lowell, why are you voting for Lowell?

How does this not make sense to you?

[ZeL1nK]

@GI

I didn't see Seacore say he thought the vig was more likely to hit scum with vezok. I'm not seeing how his thought process about vezok is different from your thought process about lowell.

@Seacore

Well, Lowell is eligible for vigging now. vezok still has a day to go.

[ZeL1nK]

I think EK is both strong (because the player is good) and town.

Agreed. I keep thinking at the back of my mind, "but what if she's scum?" and then she goes and makes another town post and it's like, "well, whatever, it's not something I really need to worry about now."

Maybe if she's still alive further down the line, and we've been unsuccessful in finding scum, then it would start to be something worth worrying about.

But on the other hand he has some forthright honest sounding stuff. Blergh.

Yeah, as much as I've been saying Snarky is scum all game, I have my reservations about it for the same reason.

It's like he's unintentionally dropping town posts here and there to counter-act the scumminess.

last weekend bad for me. will catch up.

Expecting another promise from you 72 hours from the time of this post.

--

@earworm,

Can I see your top 3 scum picks in order? Like #1, #2, #3, not a list of people you think are scum. Preferably with reasoning included.

a) who is the scum(s) in Lllamarble wagon?

b) who is the scum(s) bussing in Hez wagon?

a) One of Lowell or Snarky
b) One or two of GI, DK, vezok

--

Reading through those vezok links was fun.

On a side note, kind of related, I think DK is more likely scum than vezok for claiming VT

but not claiming an animal

. In contrast with his "scum always claim VT". Combined with him acting completely opposite to how I'm used to seeing DK town act and just being generally useless (well, he's useless regardless of alignment, but this is a special kind of useless).

--

On the recent GI developments. I think CKD is asking the wrong questions and it's affording GI some leeway in defending himself.

Some questions I want GI to answer:

1) Why do you think the Elli NK was because town's reads were off? The first thing I thought when I saw Elli dead was that scum thought she was the day vig.
2) Do you think CKD is scum? You seemed to share my sentiments a few pages back that a gimped SK was unlikely, and you've called CKD town a few times. Is he scummy town?
3) Do you think elvis is scum? Just asking because of #1152.
4) Wanna tell me why I'm wrong in #1046? Preferably with a bit more than something like "I'm town" or "it's stupid".

Also would like to hear your answer to elvis's #1161 above. Like, it's fair enough if you're saying that this CKD-Hez thing didn't look like town on town, but why CKD over anyone else in the game? And, more importantly, why didn't you explain this yesterday? Like, you know... when you were voting for CKD?

--

And, oh god, DK. hmm.

[ZeL1nK]

caustic greyice is town greyice

Yeah, except GI hasn't been "caustic" until today...

[ZeL1nK]

How bout 50 lines instead?

#1046

[ZeL1nK]

@GI,

Re: 1) So why would this implicate CKD?

Re: 2) But you think CKD is scummy, right? Or at least that he's playing like scum?

Re: 3) Why did you suggest she looks like scum jumping on your wagon?

Re: 4) Firstly, I don't see how your evolving reads reflect the fact that you didn't push any of your scum reads D1 (or D2 for that matter). My issue isn't with what your reads are, but with you not trying to push or pressure them like I'm used to seeing you do as town. And I never said Ithink your play matches your scum meta. But from what I've seen of your town meta, this game has been vastly different. At least today you've reverted to the somewhat aggressive style I'm more used to seeing.

Elvis #1161 was interesting and your answers are even more interesting.

Re: Elvis's 1) Not buying that you voted for pressure. Considering you had this to say about CKD:

1) What smelled off about you? Your contributions to the game were an enormous pig fart. You tunneled on one player and didn't even comment on ANYTHING else happening. Every post was just more whining about that one player. Apparently you have turned that into a playstyle. Good job. It's scummy, it's useless, and it accomplishes nothing.

So, I reiterate,

And, more importantly, why didn't you explain this yesterday? Like, you know... when you were voting for CKD?

Re: Elvis's 2) Hez didn't claim cop with a guilty when you voted him. This isn't a valid reason for your vote shift. In fact, I don't think you posted in between the time he claimed cop with a guilty and the time he was lynched...

[ZeL1nK]

@GI,

I'm not going to argue with you about your meta. I think you're scummy regardless of meta. It just so happens that this doesn't matter what I've seen of your town meta.

But, there are questions you're still ignoring, and they're the most important ones.

The first question you've been largely ignoring is: Why didn't you bring up your problems with CKD's play yesterday? I quoted it in my last post.

1) What smelled off about you? Your contributions to the game were an enormous pig fart. You tunneled on one player and didn't even comment on ANYTHING else happening. Every post was just more whining about that one player.

Why couldn't you say this yesterday?

The second question you've been largely ignoring is: Why did you switch to Hez? Now, you claim you thought Hez was scum because of his cop claim, but that's bullshit, because you swapped to Hez long before he claimed cop and you didn't post anywhere between when Hez claimed cop and when Hez was lynched.

And the third question you've been largely ignoring is: Why haven't you been pushing any cases in this game? Regardless of your "meta", this is just weak play. I think the criticisms of your play I outlined in #1046 are valid without even looking at your meta, and you've yet to respond to it properly. You went on about evolving reads and such but that still doesn't explain it.

Although right now I'm more interested in you giving a full list of your scum reads with reasoning.

--

@Seacore,

No. Amrun shouldn't get a pass for wanting to PL DK. I mean, wow. Really? Even though she claims she is scum hunting while voting DK who she thinks is probably town?

????

???????????

--

GI is at L-1, FTR, although that should be fairly obvious from the last votecount. No derphammers.

[ZeL1nK]

ebwop: doesn't match*

[ZeL1nK]

It's something amrun would do as either alignment, IMO. For consistency reasons.

[ZeL1nK]

eh, you can call me bad all you want, GI. My biggest problem with you is that you kept avoiding explaining your actions. Like you answered maybe half the questions people asked you, and the rest you ignored. Just looked like you were trying to answer the easy questions.

[ZeL1nK]

I don't particularly care about EK's or CKD's questions.

The ones I wanted you to answer were why you didn't mention anything about why you thought CKD was scummy yesterday and why you thought Hez was scum. You didn't vote Hez after his claim. You weren't even around to mention him after his claim.

[ZeL1nK]

Hez claimed in #879. You voted him in #824...

[ZeL1nK]

...

I'm not even arguing with you.

You never explained why you voted for Hez. You kept going on about voting for him because he claimed cop, but you voted him way before his claim.

And you also never explained what you thought was scummy about CKD yesterday.

It's nothing to do with whether or not I'm dumb, you are wrong.

[ZeL1nK]

No, dude, you didn't.

You only mentioned what you thought was scummy about CKD today. The question was why you didn't mention it yesterday.

And you never explained your initial reasons for switching to Hez. You just said it was because of the cop claim. And it wasn't, because he claimed cop 50 posts after you voted for him.

How can you not see the problem I had here?

As for why I'm not even considering the possibility that you're messing with me, it' because it doesn't matter. You're dead now.

[ZeL1nK]

I'm not arguing with you. There's no argument to be had. Nothing I've said is incorrect.

[ZeL1nK]

I was mostly calling CKD town because he wasn't part of the NKing team and him being alive meant no more daykills could occur if he was part of a hyena team, which I briefly touched on at some point I think. As soon as I died, it should have become plainly obvious that the game was mountainous (I was like the 8th consecutive VT death and 5 more claimed VTs alive, with NO PR results to speak of?)

I'm actually surprised scum even killed CKD. Town would have figured out he was scum if they ever massclaimed so he was a wasted kill. And if you killed Elvis before CKD, town would have pretty much insta-lynched CKD, which would have bought an extra NK/possible mislynch. Which also makes me wonder why CKD claimed Hyena..... If Elvis died (and Elvis was a strong town read for a lot of players), he was pretty much condemned to death.

Town lucked out in this game, but scum misplayed here and there. This is one of those games I'd rather forget ever happened.