Imperial Intrigue (Endgame, OUT OF NOWHERE)

[AGar]

VOTE: David Xanatos

Seven pages in and it seems like a lot has gone on.. but it really hasn't.

- SK fakes a daykill and tries to bait people into claiming alignments.
Anyone who buys the daykill is an idiot.
Anyone with half a brain should've read the OP and the sample VT role PMs and would've known "Hey, don't claim shit."
- DX tries to latch on to these as "scummy" plays and comes up with a million and one bullshit reasons as to why we should lynch SK, none of which are valid.
- Gandalf claims survivor bastard
People try and push to lynch him based on the fact that his alignment *might* change. They are stupid.

Townie brownies go to SK, Otolia, Gand, and NC for what they've put in.
Scum cum goes to DX so far. Vezok and shinki can be added to the list of borderline scumbags.

[AGar]

Gand... he's prob-town, so I'd drop that. He does point out a good point about Magua, though.

Still, DXanatos needs the lynching first.

[AGar]

Still, DXanatos needs the lynching first.

does he need it now? asap?

im going to echo what i said earlier: what exactly do we as town gain by rushing into a lynch when we have so much time left day 1? why are you supportive of that?

In the not-so-distant future, yes.

[AGar]

Aaaand we have a bunch of maroons here, I tell ya!

[AGar]

Yeah I'm calling bullshit on DX. He needs to die sooner and quicker.

[AGar]

Can someone please outline the case against David Xanatos.

Let's start with stretches in logic as long as the grand canyon and claiming a role that reeks of bullshit to me.

SK starts off day with daykill gambit (lulz, in retrospect) and asking for bogus claims that if anyone took the 30 seconds to read their role PM or the sample VT role PMs, would have known was fake.

DXanatos jumps to the conclusion that SK = Scum because SK 'liiiieeeeeeedddd OMG'. Really, SK sparked discussion that forced his scumbag ass to play along and not lurklurklurk for 62 pages of RVS bullshit. If daykill gambits are scummy, start lynching Fate every fucking game because that's pretty much all he does early game.

We move to now SK's real daykill. The one he offered people to vote for, no one bought into, so he shot one of the two people he said he was going to. Now DXanatos is pushing scum with a 1-shot dayvig? And he's scummy because he shot

one of the two people he said he was going to shoot

.

Finally, the claim reeks of doctored fake-claim shenanigans. "Real heir to the throne?" We've been over this. There are multiple heirs to the god damned throne. Why does him saying he is "the one" make any sense? ANY AT ALL?

Lynch it with fire.

[AGar]

To the people voting for SK - please explain WHY he is scum, more than 'gambitzzz' or 'daykill omg'

[AGar]

well, monk did confirm it. so if david flips scum (which I highly doubt) monk would be a great target.

SleepyKrew is really hard to read, but I have to think he is town.

Vote: AGar

Haven't heard much from you. Where do you stand amidst all this?

So wait.. you're reading the thread? Because... I've been posting pretty regularly. I'll let you do the legwork.

---

To the people voting for SK - please explain WHY he is scum, more than 'gambitzzz' or 'daykill omg'

My main gripe other than those is that I don't like his interactions with David Xanatos regarding what exactly a loyalist is.

So you're going to side with the player who freaked out and panicked because he couldn't properly read a sample role PM and twisted facts way out of context over the player who actually read the facts and knew what he was talking about.

Aaaand you're voting for someone over gambits and a daykill...

Please start... y'know... playing.

---

Not buying the mason claim. Confirmation from Monk isn't going to do much to change that. Yeahno.

[AGar]

well, monk did confirm it. so if david flips scum (which I highly doubt) monk would be a great target.

SleepyKrew is really hard to read, but I have to think he is town.

Vote: AGar

Haven't heard much from you. Where do you stand amidst all this?

So wait.. you're reading the thread? Because... I've been posting pretty regularly. I'll let you do the legwork.

---

To the people voting for SK - please explain WHY he is scum, more than 'gambitzzz' or 'daykill omg'

My main gripe other than those is that I don't like his interactions with David Xanatos regarding what exactly a loyalist is.

So you're going to side with the player who freaked out and panicked because he couldn't properly read a sample role PM and twisted facts way out of context over the player who actually read the facts and knew what he was talking about.

Aaaand you're voting for someone over gambits and a daykill...

Please start... y'know... playing.

---

Not buying the mason claim. Confirmation from Monk isn't going to do much to change that. Yeahno.

[AGar]

Yay double post.

[AGar]

Uuh, AGar. Are you denying that in the sample PM, showing a VT, the ROLE is LOYALIST?

To me, that implied that VTs were loyalists, to man.

I feel like a broken record here. How are you not grasping this?

Read this post

Also, if you weren't lying, your role PM would have also passed similar information along to you.

But your scum soooooo

[AGar]

VOTE: MacDougall

I was going to get into this before night fell, but I missed it. His whole "I don't buy into any of the cases here" was complete bullshit then to turn around and hammer for "Meh, I guess" reasoning was bullshit and a half. Scumbag needs to die right now.

[AGar]

VOTE: MacDougall

I was going to get into this before night fell, but I missed it. His whole "I don't buy into any of the cases here" was complete bullshit then to turn around and hammer for "Meh, I guess" reasoning was bullshit and a half. Scumbag needs to die right now.

No, I actually didn't buy into any of the cases. Then I apprehensively hammered scum out of luck. What more do you want me to do? If I was scum and hammering Empking for town cred why would I have been so blatantly apprehensive?

No, it's not that you didn't buy into the cases. It's that you a) didn't buy into the cases and then b) did nothing to do your own leg work to find a suspicion. You were content to ride the wave of the crowds and did nothing proactively yourself when you didn't see what you liked.

That's not town behavior.

And the apprehensiveness? Probably that Emp was the big PR on your team.

[AGar]

AGar: I had done all my day 1 leg work on other players.

No you didn't, and there's a post of yours that perfectly illustrates this.

unvote;vote:Emp

So wait, it's not okay for me to vote no lynch because I find the cases on everyone absurd

No, it's not. If you're town, you find someone you think is scum and you vote for that scumbag. On Day 1 of all days, you DO NOT VOTE A NO LYNCH UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

---

And the apprehensiveness? Probably that Emp was the big PR on your team.

Care to explain the use of

you

r here ? Since Empking is dead and was town, are you suggesting Mac Dougall is town or are you suggesting you are not aligned with Empking.

I still need to understand how Empking could be town, SK post fury may have blurry his defense but I am still puzzled by what I pushed for. I am still as bad in D1 as ever.

Do you still want this answered now?

[AGar]

Oh, right.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: StrangerCoug

[AGar]

VOTE: SodaSpirit

No consistency in his reads whatsoever
Going with the popular flow
Not providing any real or tangible and correct content.

Hi scum, die scum.

Oh and lolmaguausobadatthissticktobeingdaysk.

[AGar]

Ah right... MacDougall is in this game.

Man I wish I had a double dayvig right now.

And no, Vezok. That is the shittiest logic I have ever seen anyone use. And this isn't your first game. Jesus christ start playing like you have a brain please?

[AGar]

1-Shot BP is a pretty common modifier for an SK sooooooooooooooooo.

[AGar]

oh damn I forgot about vezok. He's definitely scum. Don't like AGar still.

Day 2, I was worth a vote because I "wasn't providing content" supposedly.
Day 4, I'm still suspicious, but MattP is the leading bandwagon for god only knows what reason (didn't know what a gunsmith is? c'monnnn) so he gets voted.

Also, all of his suspicions align with people who have votes.

Please note this, and lynch the fuck out of him with fire now?

[AGar]

Ah right... MacDougall is in this game.

Man I wish I had a double dayvig right now.

And no, Vezok. That is the shittiest logic I have ever seen anyone use. And this isn't your first game. Jesus christ start playing like you have a brain please?

What on Earth does this mean? I make a post pointing out the flaws in Vezok's play so you suggest day vigging both of us while insinuating that I should be day killed for being me and follow it up with having a go at Vezok for poor play?

Am I reading into that correctly?

No. I'm suggesting I would dayvig yourself and SodaSpirit, and simply implying that Vezok's line of thought is flawed.

You've been scumming it up since Day 1, and I've already pointed this kind of thing out. You've pretty much just slid by on flawed logic and a lack of motivation to provide your own proper lines of thought so far in this game. You're scum, and I know this, so why don't you just do us a favor and out your buddies?

[AGar]

VOTE: SodaSpirit

No consistency in his reads whatsoever
Going with the popular flow
Not providing any real or tangible and correct content.

Hi scum, die scum.

Oh and lolmaguausobadatthissticktobeingdaysk.

Magua suggests that you are scum, so instead of actually posting anything of worth to convince us otherwise you just disregard his entire post?

Yes, because honestly his case is "Among the people who believed the cop claim, two of them are arbitrarily scum, and these two are the two I say are scum."

Ah right... MacDougall is in this game.

Man I wish I had a double dayvig right now.

And no, Vezok. That is the shittiest logic I have ever seen anyone use. And this isn't your first game. Jesus christ start playing like you have a brain please?

What on Earth does this mean? I make a post pointing out the flaws in Vezok's play so you suggest day vigging both of us while insinuating that I should be day killed for being me and follow it up with having a go at Vezok for poor play?

Am I reading into that correctly?

No. I'm suggesting I would dayvig yourself and SodaSpirit, and simply implying that Vezok's line of thought is flawed.

You've been scumming it up since Day 1, and I've already pointed this kind of thing out. You've pretty much just slid by on flawed logic and a lack of motivation to provide your own proper lines of thought so far in this game. You're scum, and I know this, so why don't you just do us a favor and out your buddies?

Point out the flawed logic?

So you don't think Vezok is scum? How could you not think he was scum? He has the scummiest post history in the game. Anyone with no role knowledge would have to assume he was scum. You're given a chance to, and you opt to suggest he has a "flawed line of thinking" instead of being scum. Bad play scum guy. Bad play.

Hmm. Flawed logic is things like on D4 voting for a well-known VI for having a "scummy" post-history (lol context? NOT IMPORTANT BRO, FULL SPEED AHEAD!). Flawed logic is things like "I'm not behind either of the cases on current wagon leaders, so instead of finding my own suspects and pushing them, I'm going to vote to no-lynch." If you're town, neither of these things are acceptable.

No, I don't think Vezok is scum. He's well-known as being a VI on the site, and he tends to have scummy post histories on the surface. If you can't read through that, then that blows for you, but I'm pretty confident in him just being failtown right now.

[AGar]

How is me (a second gamer) voting for a player with a scummy post history, flawed logic? That just goes without saying? How am I to know that he is a well known village idiot? As for the no-lynch... I still don't get the problem. I was unaware that no lynch is auto scum. If no lynch is auto scum then why is it even there? I'm sorry but both of your points are simply a case of me being new to the play on this site. I figured that if I had nobody to vote for, then I'd be better off not voting at all than voting for someone for a bullshit reason. I guess I should have just left my vote off completely, but it never occurred to me that doing that was any different to voting for a no lynch. Besides, I ended up voting anyway.

So he has scummy post histories on the surface? Okay then, since I am seeing them at face value, and am not alone in that, I guess it means you are the one that should explain why the reads we are making on his posts are what you say they are. He only has about 7 posts, so it won't take long.

If you're town, lynches are your strongest weapon. Stronger than any cop, doc, vig or anything else, a lynch is the only way to kill scum surefire. By no-lynching in a situation where there isn't reasonable cause, you are wasting towns strongest weapon. Unless you yourself are a vig, you should assume that there is no vig and the only way for town to kill scum is by lynching. If you are not satisfied with the lynch options, you

find a new lynch and push it until it either goes through or utterly fails and you merge to a compromise wagon.

Vezok, there is no solid "explanation." You just know after playing umpteen games with him whether it's time for him to die or not. He posts with failing logic on a repetitive basis and generally does things that make you smack your head in frustration. People mistake this for scumplay but he pretty much does it regardless of alignment. He could be a mod-confirmed innocent child and he's still. post. the. same. way. Statistically the odds are in favor of him being town over scum, so - as with any general VI - your best course of action 9 times out of 10 is to leave him be and force scum to waste their kill on him or wait for him to slip hard and lead you to his buddies. They play in an characteristically unreadable manner, and you simply look for that one 'aha' moment.

[AGar]

EC's not knowing what a gunsmith is seems fake. He's been here since 2009.

As have I, yet I only learned of the role itself since earlier this year. Let's not pick random bullshit out of thin air here.

This post and this post are both really really bad.

Don't answer questions for other players.

Conditionally, if mbstokem is scum, there is an improved chance of MattP scum as well. Independently, I'm not sold on MattP. Tcl gave me null vibes, so I'm not 100% on this theory yet.

Magua just seems more and more off as time goes by. Especially with the whole drop in, make some bold statements, and then activate his turbolurk. Plus Peregrine reads as townier than scummier here.

By the way, how exactly is MacDougall not mafia?

He is. But SodaSpirit is more in need of rope right now.

MattP wagon is a bad wagon, please & thank you. Either that or someone bring in a case better than "He's trying to coast!"

[AGar]

@ MOD

Could you kindly fix my closing url tag in #921? That would rock if you could (I forgot the L). Thanks broseph.

[AGar]

Lol I am not Mafia. I am a loyalist and I get the feeling I might be the only one.

Guys, this defense is so convincing. What was I ever thinking, suspecting this guy? We should all just follow his reads and sheep him till death do us part.

(the beware players bemoaning night kills tell)

This tell.. is so inaccurate it's not even laughable anymore.

Except that it's obvious that if I were scum I would not point out that fact as that would laughably stupid.

(cue Quake announcer voice)

W-W-W-W-WIFOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

---

- Oh look, MacDougall has conveniently decided to lynch Soda now that he's been called on the carpet about his bullshit Vezok push. Good to know.
- I like manho. I'd like him better with a bit more content. But I like manho.
- Boger is good too.
- Soda has gone turbolurk now. Magua's turbolurk is noted too. Nicely found enough time to drop 4 posts on his Mini Theme, couldn't even drop one here. Been 55ish hours since he posted.

---

- Key note in post 888, where MacDougall posts his "case" on Vezok. Vezok ISO#5 (860), Vezok states that he isn't sure about Shinki's claim, and the play surrounding it is sketchy. Vezok pretty clearly notes that he is doubtful of the claim. Accurate or not, not important. The clarity is. He makes this abundantly clear ("Shinki is playing so fail with that claim [...] I never saw a cop that didn't want a guilty lynched"). In Vezok ISO#7, Vezok announces that Shinki never outright claimed to be a cop ("

HE NEVER SAID HE IS A COP

"). Consistent with his earlier beliefs, but MacDougall attempts to paint this otherwise, announcing that Vezok was "happy to let us all roll with Shinki being a cop" (no he wasn't) and that he "flip flopped on an important issue." (lolnope). Also note that MacDougall said that "this has been the scummiest player since day 1, gotta go imo." But oh wait, Vezok isn't mentioned until ISO#25 (Day 1) where he's be "willing to vote for Vezok, too" in consideration between DX and Vezok, and then he never votes until ISO#82 (888, the post I'm ripping to shreds right now) on

the third day phase we had.

But the guy has been the scummiest player since Day 1?

MacDougall casted a vote to no-lynch on Day 1 when he wasn't comfortable with the lynch choices. If Vezok has been the scummiest player since Day 1, why did he not try and push a case on him then, instead of voting no-lynch?

Soda today, MacDougall tomorrow, profit.

[AGar]

Complete and Total 100% Unfounded Setup Speculation

Take this with a grain of salt.

We have had two anti-town flips - Empking as Terran mafia, and StrangerCoug as House Bremburg. Now there are two possible theories to draw here.

- Night 1, we had 3 kills. SleepyKrew's death was claimed as a 1-shot kill by vigKdowns.
- Night 2, we had 1 kill. David Xanatos was fairly easy to work out as a Beloved Princess, however, and as such could have easily drawn two shots from multiple scumteams.
- Night 3, we have 2 kills. Shinki was an obvious kill as a gunsmith, and monk was obvious as a mason.

Option 1: We are in a two scum, no 3rd party setup. This is the one I feel more likely about, reflecting on the night kills and where they fell. JDGA was a fairly neutral kill, as was gandalf. SKs usually make bold, vocal kills because they want to avoid

all

attention, so as long as their target wasn't onto them - it's a solid choice. This would mean that House Bremburg is a mafia faction (and SC would have been a limited modified Godfather), and the likely numbers (based on common balance) would be 3 mafia left in each faction. 16:4:4 is a fairly balanced way to go for a setup. Worst case scenario for a really bad town, you're in a 6:4:4 pseudo-MYLO after 3 nights of play, assuming you suck at lynching scum, the 1-shot shoots wrong, and both scum factions shoot a different town player every night.

Option 2: We are in a two-scum, 1 SK setup. SC was the SK, by this logic. Tough sell on this is that two of the four killers on Night 1 (1-shot Vig, Terran Mafia, Other Mafia, SK-SC) stacked up their kill. Given the 3 deaths, I find it highly unlikely. I'd still say 15:4:4:1, but maybe 17:3:3:1 depending on how powerful the mafia are.

TL;DR: I'm bored and slightly intrigued by setup possibilities and figured I'd put them out in writing in case anyone actually cared to take an insight.

P-Edit: I'll get to you scum-man.

[AGar]

I'm so far down the rabbit hole of muddled understanding and some of you have tunneled me so far that nothing I do is ever going to pull me free and I've been on the hook for days. Oh well, I'll give it a shot.

That's not true at all. But you're going to have to actually, y'know, prove that your town through something other than "OMG I'M TOWN GUYS!" or picking on the easy lynch. Rookie scum mistakes.

"Guys, this defense is laughable?" I didn't even say that, you are taking my words and bending them to your own means.

I was mocking the fact that you were defending yourself with "OMG I'M TOWN GUYS AND AM I THE ONLY ONE?"

Called on the what? You are the only one actively defending Vezok so it's not like your opinion is the only opinion floating around.

Oh really now.

I said you were called on your bullshit, as in your weak attempt to get Vezok lynched to have an easy lynch. There are three posts calling you on your pisspoor logic.

Vezok has very few posts in the game but they are all bad... I agree with your point that he could just be town with no clue, but I still think he's a great lynch candidate.

Could be town. Great lynch candidate.

Could you, y'know, NOT make this so easy?

I had a read of Soda's ISO and from the first post he reads badly and a Soda lynch will give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch. Of course that won't be the case if you just assume "MacDougall busing another scum buddy." I don't really care to paint my read clearly because a quick glance at his ISO will give you all the same reads that I now have. Are you suggesting that I am busing Soda? That would mean that my hammer on Empking, my first vote on StrangerCoug and now my wagon vote on Soda are all bus votes. Sure, it's possible that I hate my own team that much but eventually I will run out of teammates if I keep voting to get them lynched. Soda isn't even the vote leader right now, so why would I bus him if he were my teammate?

- You conveniently read Soda's ISO after Vezok's lynch support all but failed.
- Actually, Soda lynch will still give us more to work with than a Vezok lynch, because Soda is more likely to be town.
- So you want a lynch.... without putting effort in.
- I'm suggesting you could very well be bussing soda.
- No, it would mean that one of either your hammer on Empking or your

2nd

(key point here) "follow-the-cop" vote on StrangerCoug was bussing (either is a prime bus vote) and then your vote on Soda could be a bus, or could be multiball scum-on-different-scum action.
- Besides, I bussed all 3 of my partners aggressively in one game (and then proceeded to pretty much coast on massive town-cred), and have a habit of "KILL ALL PARTNERS" syndrome when I'm scum. It happens, it's not as unlikely as you think.

It's interesting to note that that reads post I made on Vezok was when I was forced to. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best (or more experienced) mafia player, especially when it comes to making town posts that seem town. Everything I do as town has a scum tinge and I don't really know why. But I read Vezok as scum. I find it difficult to explain why at times because I make reads more on word choice, phrasing etc. than actual words. Words can be faked, the way it's phrased is much harder to fake. Unfortunately all I can say in response to your breaking of my Vezok argument, is that I read him incorrectly. The first post you quoted read to me like he was suggesting that Shinki was fake claiming cop, while now you have pointed out that he was trying to suggest that Shinki wasn't a cop at all. I'm sure I wasn't alone at the time misreading that. The latter, then seemed to me like a back pedal. I'm sure it's believable that I would read Vezok incorrectly.

Believable? Yes. It's also believable that you - as scum - saw an open opportunity to try and jump on a player that doesn't play well, but has a higher likelihood of being town than scum, and decided to try and push invalid points as a case against him to get town cred, and didn't expect it to backfire quite like this.

Anyway, I'm not scum... But if you're already convinced, you can stop tunneling me now and try to focus on some other players... you might actually find some real scum if you look at someone other than me.

If you were more focused on "scumhunting" instead of not dying (another scumtell, oh by the way - since scum have a harder time winning when their team dies [osnap]), you'd realized that I've pointed out several players leaning either way on my reads. Manho, town. Peregrine, townish. Vezok, townish. MattP, not likely to be scum so townish. Soda, scum. Magua, scum. I won't give you a list of every read I've got, but I've given you plenty to work with.

P-Edit1: Because there were two kills last night, and we've killed two anti-town players from different factions. WOAH.
P-Edit2:Because a rolecop isn't a role you give to a lone 3rd party. A lone rolecop is kinda dick since, y'know, he's just a neutral rolecop. No mod would do that unless this was bastard modding - which Wraith did not warn us of.

[AGar]

Edit :

@AGar : Do you think we could be in a LyLy situation after 2 consecutive days of lynching non town-aligned ? You speculation kinda makes me wonder what time is still available ... And also why Soda instead of MacDougall ? Sure Soda looks scummy like all the people who voted for MattP, but does he deserve special treatment ?

I'm assuming you mean LYLO, to which I think no. If we were in a 16:4:4, we are in fairly alright position. But again, that was completely baseless in a sense - I was going off of a feel for what would be balanced based on the claimed/flipped roles, past games and night actions that are unconfirmed.

As for Soda over MacDougall? I could lynch either, they're both solid choices. But I was more ambitious about Soda, who has flip-flopped on his reads extraordinarily since Day 1.

[AGar]

wtf. everyone is voting me for sheeping MattP or whatever, but I had suspicions of him before!!!

You mentioned one weak, unsupported FoS of MattP on Day 2, while not actually casting a vote. So how convinced were you of your suspicion really, when you didn't even have enough fortitude to put it into a vote when you had no higher suspicion, seemingly.

You had high-ranking suspicion of me on Day 1 enough to vote me, which was lost on Day 2, and then completely forsaken on Day 3 while you happily bandwagoned MattP. Now that you have lost the steam behind your MattP wagon, you are not doing anything proactive about either securing a MattP lynch (if that is your top suspicion) or moving towards another lynch that you have faith in.

These are major inconsistencies that you need to die for.

I believe set up 1 is more likely. Vezok is a better lynch than MacDougall, but depending on how the day goes, I'd be willing to support a MacDougall lynch as well.
If anyone strikes me as VI, it's soda.

Elaborate, because this is... incomprehensible.

---

@MacDougall

First, please stop the quote walls. They're a nightmare to read, and I'm to the point of just not bothering to respond after this one.

- Get better at explaining yourself. Read ISOs. If Vezok is the only scum player you can find, then you're either scum, not trying, or need to bring a more convincing case on Vezok.
- I think you're confusing two points here. I'm referring to #925. Which was the most pathetic attempt at defending yourself I have ever seen.
- I never said anyone was defending Vezok. I said they called you on your bullshit logic. These are not one in the same.
- No, there's nothing out of context here. You said he could be town, but you think he's a good lynch candidate. If you are not with conviction in a scumread, you need to re-evaluate whether you should continue to push that lynch.
- Only point from this chunk worth addressing is my swapping - Vezok is more likely to be town, Soda is more likely to be scum. Fairly simple point to comprehend, people's minds do move faster than their hands at times. The other responses you make are weak and unsupported, and I'm not going to waste the text space (except you still can't stick to "BUSSING ALL MY PARTNERS" since SC and Emp were

different factions

- Scumhunting and not dying are not "hand-in-hand." When have I once been worried about dying? Shinki didn't seemed to worried about not dying. Nor did Skrew. Averting a mislynch? Understandable, but there comes a point where your focus gravitates too heavily in one way or another, and this is one of those times.
- Also, scumhunt like you actually mean it, and provide valid points, and I'll have nothing to "undermine" now will I?
- Setup spec: 3 kills Night 1. 1 is claimed 1-shot vig. 1 kill night 2, on beloved princess that was fairly obvious. 2 kills on Night 3. Two known anti-town factions. Still thinking bomb or double killer? (Hint: I'm not).

---

Question, if everyone is so positive that SodaSprite is mafia, why are contemplating lynching MacNoodles and eWok? I mean, I'm not saying we

shouldn't

be, but what's all the holdup on the Sprite lynch? Plus, does anyone have any unanswered questions from Sprite, and where the heck is he?

He's gone turbolurk, and I'm fully set for a Soda lynch. I'll still aggressively attack our other scum so that they feel the heat and realize their end is nigh.

[AGar]

3. You pull bullshit arguments against Vezok. People call you on bad logic. I say you vote conveniently after being called on said bullshit. You said I was the only one defending Vezok. I said that I wasn't insinuating anyone defended Vezok, only that they called you out on bad logic.

How hard is that to follow.

As for 5... scumslip?

*You vote Soda because "he seems like a good lynch."
*I continue to press you.
*You claim to be town, assume that because one read is off, all must be off and your scum read on Soda is invalid.

If you're town... how does this work?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MacDougall

@Town/MacD's scumbuddies/other anti-town factions

Mr. MacDougall here just handed us his head on a silver platter. Assist me in lynching the shit out of this scumbag with much much fire.

[AGar]

What I see from the defense of MacDougall :

• He is trying to deflect the lynch unto vezokpiraka. That means he thinks he is valuable than vezokpiraka. He is either a town PR, or a scum.
  
• He is using the frustration argument, one I know perfectly. Whereas most of the time, it is used by frustrated townies, it is a general appeal to emotion. It is not an argument but a testimony of weakness.
  
• Whereas he seems to like walls, he isn't prone to quote himself. When you speak the truth, you can quote yourself easily. When you are not ...

What do you think of his last point in #967, and the flaws I pointed out in #968.

Oh and lolmaguausobadatthissticktobeingdaysk.

Ok.

Daykill: AGar

Before you die, kindly explain where you see PeregrineV as town, because I'm not seeing it, whereas I am seeing MacDougall town. Especially in light of your (correct) vezokpiraka-playing-as-VI-does-not-imply mafia, but you don't apply that same standard to MacDougall even though it's obvious you should.

Peregrine seems to be putting honest effort in. Peregrine is putting out logical thoughts that are easy to follow. This is one of the biggest town-tells out there - you can follow from Point A to Point B what they're thinking and why.

MacDougall as VI? I'm afraid you're confusing caught rookie scum with VI. VI isn't something you establish after one game. You know this. You don't just say "Oh wow, this guy is bad, he's a VI." Vezok plays in a similar manner every single game. If you don't know how to handle VI players by now, that's pretty bad. It's the same for all of them - unless they are acting outrightly scummy in a way that is different from their normal, subpar play, you leave them be and force scum to handle them or let them lead you to their scumbuddies - because they will be apparent after a period of time.

[AGar]

As for you Agar, how does me giving up on arguing with you all of a sudden equate to "he definitely scum now". If you really think that, then you aren't as smart as you think you are. I legitimately have had enough of breaking down points with you because it gets me nowhere. You don't believe anything I say and furthermore you use my attempts at defense as new reasons to attack me so why would I bother?

Follow me here:

- You open voting Vezok with a case behind it.
- Case on Vezok is torn apart.
- You switch vote to Soda, who is being wagonned. This implies that you are at the very least suspicious of him, but probably believe him to be scum.
- You continue to be pressured by me.
- You assume that because I am supposedly wrong in my read on you, that my reads on EVERYONE MUST BE WRONG, and you unvote the guy you were voting.

So either you didn't believe Soda in the first place to be scum (which only would make sense if you were scum and he was town) or you are simply voting opposite of my reads to spite me or something (which isn't a townie thing to do).

If you think Peregrine is easier to understand than me then fine, but the difference in our diction and clarity is negligible and under no circumstances could you apply that argument to him, and not hold me to the same conditions, because, and I firmly believe this, everything I say/mean is obvious and clear, even possibly MORESO than Peregrine. I'm not speaking in code, I haven't been caught out lying. I could sit here and argue with you all day, because I'm right and you'll never crack me. Just because I don't have the patience/time/skill/ambition/commitment to do so, doesn't mean that you are right. Realistically You just didn't like the way I went about the Empking lynch. That's the only thing I've done that realistically could equate to me being lynched. My thoughts are logical and easy to follow, you just disagree with them.

And to continue, I don't believe I'm a VI. I'm new to the game as you play it but a VI I am not, and eventually I hope to be somewhat competent at the game. Even thought I'm not a VI in my mind, that doesn't mean that I'm caught rookie scum either. It's not like "bad player = caught rookie scum or VI" there's also the third option, which from my limited experience tends to end up being the most likely, which is "accused rookie townie". So, wise guy, I'm afraid, YOU are mistaking "accused rookie townie" with "caught rookie scum".

Anywho... what's the deal here? Has Magua legitimately killed you or was that just some joke I don't get?

Paragraph 1: I don't follow your thought process. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I can follow why Peregrine thinks what he's thinking. Nothing so far he's said has come across as a skewed interpretation of the way things really happened, like I've pointed out several times in your posting. I see logical flaws in your posting, twists on events. And as for the Empking lynch? I don't care how you went about it. The biggest indicator was "I'm not content with any lynches, so I'm voting no-lynch." when you were supposedly so suspicious of Vezok that he was the "scummiest player since D1" (your words, not mine).

Paragraph 2: I don't think you're a VI. Again - and this is what's so bothering me - my read is my read. Sitting there and going "YOU'RE WRONG!" isn't going to change it. You've done nothing so far since I've attacked to give me reason to pause in my belief of you being scum. Your focus has swung back and forth between "AGar is attacking me, I must defend!" and pushing your extremely weak case on Vezok. If you were town, by now you should have been pushing either a more solid case on Vezok, or going after a new suspect (which you should have more than 1) with a case. You aren't doing either, and you're latest flip because "YOUR READ ON ME IS WRONG SO THEY MUST ALL BE WRONG AND I DON'T TRUST MYSELF ENOUGH TO STICK WITH MY OWN READS!" is easily one of the biggest scumslips I've seen. Ever.

Paragraph 3: I believe it was a play on my "lolmaguausobadatthiswhydon'tyoujuststicktobeingadaysk" which was referring to an exceptional performance Magua had earlier this year as a Day SK in a *cough*bastard-mod*cough* large theme game.

[AGar]

Bogre I gave reasoning to the MattP vote, granted it wasn't today, it was yesterday.

Do you wanna, y'know, contribute anytime soon?

You were kinda up to 5 votes at one point and that suspicion hasn't entirely left the building. You're not scott free at all.

[AGar]

You hardly tore my case on Vezok apart. Your case against him being scum is worse than the case for him, even though they're both similar. I changed my vote away from him because it looked likely that no Vezok lynch was going to eventuate.

I switched to Soda because I was suspicious of him, yes.

But because I'm wrong on a read supposedly, you're just going to unvote him now and declare him town, your suspicion (which should be based on his actions, or lack thereof) null and void because AGar is wrong on one read you claim?

Now, I've explained this to you before... but it didn't occur to me to just unvote. It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. In hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently (we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444. Check your iso.

I find this highly doubtful. If you would read my ISO in a unbias colour then you will find my will rather unwavering. My supposed scumslips you think you've found are nothing more than me getting pissed off with this eternal struggle to redeem myself. Unfortunately, and this has still continued... I don't see scum as clearly as you think you do (which ironically, you don't and will find eventually). If I don't see people running around with their scum dicks hanging out for the world to see, am I supposed to go and find someone who I think is town and just paint them scum? Is that what you're implying? Why is it irrational for you to feel that the scum players are just playing so well than a rookie like myself can't see them? In fact, if I were to take a random pot shot at the scum right now it'd be Team 1 = Vezok and you. Team 2 = SodaSpirit and MattP. If, there are 3/3 mafia teams. MattP hasn't done a great deal to earn my ire, and you are so aggressively tunneling me that if I started trying to paint you scum, you'd shout OMGUS so loud the whole world would hear it. If that's one of the biggest scumslips you've ever seen, then you've seen not a single one, because that's not a scum slip.

Here's the problem. You say the only scum player you see is Vezok. We've had two scum-flips. Are you really saying that after that, and a handful of townflips as well, you have NO scumreads beyond Vezok? You find NOTHING suspicious about ANYONE?

If you're town, you should already see the issue here.

If not, then carry on and eventually you're going to die, whether I live to see the lynch itself or not.

[AGar]

If you can't read Peregrine and follow the same pattern I do logically, me pointing it out isn't going to help you see it. You know this.

As for the second part, I said MacDougall

can't be read as a VI

based off of one game.

As for your whole "Why would rookie scum do this?" Hmmm... he's staying off any wagons and can make a push that he wanted to try and avoid a mislynch (oh, look, he's said something like that already!) and decided to vote for a no-lynch. Look town. All of the usual reasonings behind that.

The last point makes no sense: hammers his partner (loltowncred?) or "someone he would have every right to believe is just as much town as the wagons he was avoiding earlier" - he knows who is town and who isn't...

Also, what about Soda? Thoughts there?

[AGar]

The last point makes no sense: hammers his partner (loltowncred?) or "someone he would have every right to believe is just as much town as the wagons he was avoiding earlier" - he knows who is town and who isn't

Not if it's a multiscum game he doesn't.

The point was, why vote no lynch? Your theory is (I assume) that he's rookie scum who voted no lynch to avoid being on a town lynch wagon. But that doesn't work because he hammered on Empking. So the question is, did he hammer on Empking because he's Empking's partner? That's not something that rookie scum would ever do. Did he hammer on Empking because he wanted to lynch someone on his team? If so, why do you think he was voting no lynch earlier?

Rookie scum don't bus? Since when? He also hammered Emp after significant push had been made on the Emp wagon, whereas when he unvotes SK, the only wagons are DX and SK, who both had multiple people claiming them as town. Do you not see why a rookie scum - on Emp's team or not - would unvote in that situation?

@MacDougall

Now, I've explained this to you before... but it didn't occur to me to just unvote. It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. In hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently (we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444. Check your iso.

I expect an answer in your next post.

[AGar]

@MOD

Wanna be awesome and fix my bold tag up there? Please, thanks, you're awesome.

[AGar]

No, rookie scum do not bus unless they're forced.

Forcing yourself into absolutes and definitives like this are terrible. Also, if I recall correctly, MacDougall was pretty well forced to hammer Emp. So again, this line of thought is valid.

[AGar]

Now, I've explained this to you before...

but it didn't occur to me to just unvote.

It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. In hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently (we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444.

Check your iso.

Your point? After I voted SK and then decided to unvote him I had been left with nobody firm to put a vote on. I didn't become aware of Vezok until later when David pointed it out because he had posted so fleetingly and pointlessly that his posts had just fallen between the cracks to me.

Read the bolded parts.

Then come back to me.

(Hint: You say it "didn't occur to you to unvote [and you voted no lynch instead]" when you moved your vote SK -> unvote -> No Lynch. See the problem here? The context of this line of questioning is not in regards to Vezok, it's in regards to you blatantly voting to No Lynch rather than push a wagon.)

Also, if I recall correctly, MacDougall was pretty well forced to hammer Emp.

Show me where this was the case. Show me where he was even mentioned in regards to Empking.

Sept 24th, 1847 EDT - In this post, MacDougall says that Emp doesn't strike him as scummy.
Sept 24th, 1901 EDT - In this post, Otolia tells MacDougall to vote for someone and pushes towards Emp.
Sept 24th, 1902 EDT - In this post, MacDougall says he is not voting for someone he feels is town.
Sept 25th, 0026 EDT - In this post, MacDougall insinuates he still finds Empking to be town, but asks SK if he will stop shitposting if Emp is hammered and flips town.
Sept 25th, 1800 EDT - In this post, MacDougall still insists that Empking is not scummy aside from his cop claim, and that we should be lynching other players first. Empking is at L-1 right now.
Sept 25th, 1943 EDT - In this post, MacDougall now re-reads #668 and decides that Empking is scummy. Players have been saying "Empking needs to die" more or less for a few pages. MacDougall asks to hammer. Empking has not posted anything new. MacDougall now just finds a scummy hint in a post he had posted at least twice since.
Sept 26th, 0044 EDT - In this post, MacDougall hammers, still hesitant to do so.

Tell me, does this not look EXACTLY like the situation you're describing? New scum who doesn't want to bus their partner, and yet is put in a situation where it is almost 100% necessary?

[AGar]

Now, I've explained this to you before...

but it didn't occur to me to just unvote.

It was a simple error. I play on other forums and I didn't realise I could unvote and leave it. I

n hindsight I did know I could do it but where I play most commonly, the play beckons no lynches frequently

(we don't have hammer, we have deadline based lynches). If I had have just unvoted, then this would not even be happening. I had no plans to NOT VOTE. I didn't want a no lynch. I just didn't want my vote on anything at that time, so I thought I had to put it on no lynch.

Except you unvoted from SK in post #344, and then voted to no-lynch in post #444.

Check your iso.

Your point? After I voted SK and then decided to unvote him I had been left with nobody firm to put a vote on. I didn't become aware of Vezok until later when David pointed it out because he had posted so fleetingly and pointlessly that his posts had just fallen between the cracks to me.

Read the bolded parts.

Then come back to me.

(Hint: You say it "didn't occur to you to unvote [and you voted no lynch instead]" when you moved your vote SK -> unvote -> No Lynch. See the problem here? The context of this line of questioning is not in regards to Vezok, it's in regards to you blatantly voting to No Lynch rather than push a wagon.)

Yeah I see that. I wasn't saying I didn't know that I could unvote, just that the fact that I commonly vote no lynch in the meta at the other forum I play so I and others there usually don't move from a vote to a blank unvote, but rather to a no lynch, in that scenario. Bolded to point out that I mentioned this.

Let's try this again:

You were unsatisfied with both SK and DX lynches. You unvote. Then, 100 gameposts later, you vote no lynch.

Which means either you legitimately wanted a no lynch and are backing off of the position now, or you weren't keeping track of your vote.

So come again - why did you vote No Lynch. Please try and not lie to us this time, it makes finding your buddies that much easier.

---

@Andrius

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this.

@Magua

#1029. Respond please. Even if it's just "Wow AGar, you're so right!" I'll be satisfied with the recognition.

@MOD

Prod on Vezok please? And also, putting the notice out there now;

V/LA from October 28th to 31st

[AGar]

I voted no lynch because I didn't want my vote to count for anything at that time and I felt inclined to let the fact that I had no scum read be known to the world. I said this before but I didn't want my vote being somewhere I didn't believe in, in case a lynch occured while I was afk

YOU WERE ALREADY UNVOTED. WHAT I AM ASKING IS WHY IT WAS NECESSARY TO MOVE FROM UNVOTE TO NO LYNCH.

[AGar]

VOTE: AGar

Why are you making such a big deal about the "no lynch". I've seen newbies do the same thing more than once. I think Dougall is town.

Because every time I've seen someone new vote No Lynch in the past year and a half it's been a new scum player trying to look protown by going "Look, I don't wanna risk lynching town so no lynch guys!" No lynching on D1 puts scum at a HUUUUGE advantage as they get to skate by on a free day with no associative reads being able to be established off of lynch patterns, and yet they get a day of game-content to pore over for PR tells, breadcrumbs, vanilla tells and the like. If you can't see why this makes no lynching a valuable D1 play for scum, you're already a detriment to the twon.

---

Here we go, gonna pull one out of Fate's book here.

MacDougall, I'm pulling the 1v1 card here. Quite simple.

We lynch you today. If you flip scum, I'm right and booyah, go me. If you flip town, we lynch me tomorrow. Quite simple. If you're town, you realize that you dying, while not a great move, provides a wealth of information and is not a huge detriment to the town.

@The Rest of the Town: This is how confident I am in this read. Time for you all to nut up or shut up and stop pussyfooting around the fact that we have a viable lynch here and start doing something about it.

[AGar]

Also, I'm a bit concerned how AGar says it's either him or Mcdougall. I want both of them to claim now. If needbe I can claim with them as well.

MattP- why do you think i'm scum?

There's no need for me to claim at this point. I'm not being lynched today, MacDougall is.

I'm not gonna play that game with you Agar when you are like a no read to me. All of my scumread on you I keep putting down to OMGUS and I'm not willing to justify allowing myself to be lynched just to have you lynched tomorrow, and allow the other, more scummy players, a free ride.

If you want to lynch me fine, but my dying request won't be for Agar's lynch. It will be for Vezok's.

Thanks scum, this is all I needed to see.

[AGar]

No, in my "weirdo" world a town player would have more than 1 scumread by day 4 and wouldn't be afraid of dying since you keep underhandedly hinting that I'm suspicious to you.

[AGar]

Also, if you're going to try and meta me to craft a scumread, you should probably pick more than 4 games, since I've played over 50.

[AGar]

VOTE: MacDougall

It should already be known that I'm down with this.

V/LA Oct 28th - 31st

I'll be back on Monday.

[AGar]

So wait... Why is MacDougall town? Because he claimed BR? Ummm.... For fucks sake will people start actually thinking? It's a hard null-tell.

[AGar]

He's town for the same reason SodaSpirit was so obviously town.
New to the game/ VI Behavior =/= Scum.
We're five days into the game. Voting pattern and activity patterns are much better indicators of scum.

Behavior that is consistent with scum players and their ulterior motivations > voting patterns based off of two scum flips for separate factions.

Buuut if you're

soooo

set on voting patterns and activity patterns leading the way to finding scum, well then why aren't you analyzing votecounts or activity?

It'd be great if someone wanted to shoot EC or Magua tonight, as one of them is surefire scum as well.

[AGar]

Buuut if you're soooo set on voting patterns and activity patterns leading the way to finding scum, well then why aren't you analyzing votecounts or activity?

Ehrm.
I have?
It's one of my reasons for voting Magua, buddy. Thanks for reading, though!

I'd hardly call any of your posting "voting pattern analysis" at all. The post where you vote Magua is so narrow-minded and ingenuine, it's terribly unfunny.

[AGar]

Well if we aren't getting a MacDougall lynch, I propose an Andrius or Magua lynch.

You're easier to like when you aren't doing stupid shit.

Just sayin'.

Also, EC - your vote is on Magua, you're calling for a Vezok lynch and you're exaggerating the fact that "everyone is suspicious" of Vezok. Try again.

{MacDougall, Magua, EC}

[AGar]

I'm sorry Agar, are you suggesting that my wanting an Andrius or Magua lynch is dumb shit?

I'm suggesting that going "LOLZ LETS LYNCH THEM INSTEAD" and being generally facetious about the game is dumb shit.

Hey AGar what do you think of EC_NonBlueScum?

I see EC-Scum. I haven't tried to pin him down to a particular faction, I'd just rather kill

all of the scums

.

@TOWN

Ok, let's sit down for a second. We need to fucking focus. This "OMG HE DID X LITTLE MINISCULE THING, VOTE!" shit needs to fucking stop. Now. Think about this. It's Day fucking 5. Not 1. Not 2. 5. We need to be pushing CONCRETE cases against people that can be listed off in a convincing manner. If you want someone lynched, you'd better be fucking pushing a solid case with an actual effort to get that bastard lynched. No more "LOLZ VOTES FOR PRESSURE!!!" Quit the ADD, cut the shit and start playing like you actually plan on fucking winning and not just jumping at every little twitch. Note these things, put them down and point them out, but for the love of god do not just go fucking ADD with your vote. MacDougall should be DEAD by all rights at this point. He's been at L-1 multiple times. He should have been at L-0 and lynched to death. Get your shit together please.

[AGar]

I'm sorry Agar, are you suggesting that my wanting an Andrius or Magua lynch is dumb shit?

I'm suggesting that going "LOLZ LETS LYNCH THEM INSTEAD" and being generally facetious about the game is dumb shit.

Hey AGar what do you think of EC_NonBlueScum?

I see EC-Scum. I haven't tried to pin him down to a particular faction, I'd just rather kill

all of the scums

.

@TOWN

Ok, let's sit down for a second. We need to fucking focus. This "OMG HE DID X LITTLE MINISCULE THING, VOTE!" shit needs to fucking stop. Now. Think about this. It's Day fucking 5. Not 1. Not 2. 5. We need to be pushing CONCRETE cases against people that can be listed off in a convincing manner. If you want someone lynched, you'd better be fucking pushing a solid case with an actual effort to get that bastard lynched. No more "LOLZ VOTES FOR PRESSURE!!!" Quit the ADD, cut the shit and start playing like you actually plan on fucking winning and not just jumping at every little twitch. Note these things, put them down and point them out, but for the love of god do not just go fucking ADD with your vote. MacDougall should be DEAD by all rights at this point. He's been at L-1 multiple times. He should have been at L-0 and lynched to death. Get your shit together please.

You do realize that this is your primary case on MacDougall? He voted No Lynch at some point day 1, thereby proving himself to be "newbscum instead of just new."

You do realize that that is not my only case against MacDougall?

- General non-committal attitude on Day 1, enforced by the no-lynch vote, but also proven through apprehensiveness about making concrete statements and decisions.
- Overall lack of proactive and forward thinking play throughout the entire game, content to sit and ride on the coattails of others
- Early choosing of weak or easy targets as his "lynch preferences" rather than actively scumhunting.
- Lack of confidence in his own play or reads, leading me to believe that they are simply made up. See his post where he decides that because my read on him is wrong, that my read on other players must be wrong too (even a player he was voting for - implying that he believed that player was scum) and switching his vote from a player we mutually read to be scum to a player I felt to be town because all of my reads must be the opposite -

even though he had casted a vote for a player he had read to be scum, my opinion so greatly influenced his reads to cause him to lose confidence in that read.

[AGar]

Yes, Agar. I suggested the notion of lynching Vezok while keeping my vote on Magua. Sue me.I wanted some reactions first.

It's Day 5. Gauging for reactions is a play reserved for Days 1 or 2. Not Day 5.

[AGar]

Furthermore how on Earth does doing something just to spite you make me scum?

Ignoring the whole "WAAAH I'M A NOOB" part.

How does this make you scum? Because it shows absolutely 0 effort to actually help the town succeed and instead points to you playing to your own personal motivations, which obviously are NOT the town win-con.

[AGar]

How can you say that Agars reads suck while also calling her a good town player and calling her scum just now?

I'm a dude... dude.

I was unaware that the towns win-con was "get MacDougall lynched". At least I am looking at everyone with the same rationale.

Lynching scum furthers the town's win-con by killing threats to the town. Derp.

Besides. Voting for Player A, then deciding that because Player B has a wrong read on you that your personal read on Player A is wrong - because it is in sync with Player B's read - is so ass backwards and NOT scumhunting, it's ridiculous.

[AGar]

EmpKing behaved in a very VI manner too, and op, he was scum. Being bad doesn't make you town.

Your idea of a VI is... off.

[AGar]

I didn't do any of that junk you're suggesting.

5. .... this isn't worth it anymore. I'm done arguing with you. No matter what I say to defend myself you're just gonna run along with your incorrect read. You know what, you're wrong about me so I'm just gonna assume you're wrong about Soda as well, and MattP and Vezok and return my vote to where it should be.

[AGar]

Hey. AGar. Who besides MacDougall[1] are you willing to lynch? How about Andrius?

No one's going to hammer a MacDougall lynch. Let's get a counterwagon going.

[1] And me. Smartass.

EtherealCookie.

Not Andrius.

Maybe PeregrineV. Potentially Bogre.

Obviously you and MacDougall.

And if town isn't going to hammer a MacDougall lynch... then we're fucked and we might as well pack it in now.

[AGar]

Peregrine's town. EtherealCookie I can really only see as a buddy to Andrius, so I'm very curious how you're ok with lynching EC but not with lynching Andrius.

Bogre can die, though, that one I can agree with.

Because you're scum, so of course my town-thought processes will "confuse" you.

[AGar]

I'm not "confused" by your "thought" processes. I'm curious as to how you think EC is scum and Andrius is town, given EC's repeated "Andrius is scum" cries followed by EC's complete refusal to actually vote Andrius.

Because EC also said Vezok was scum but refused to vote him.
And did the same with you iirc.

He's doing it rampantly, not just with one person.

You can't just isolate one incident and say "Aha! That's his scumbuddy."

[AGar]

You already had your vote on me Matt.

He took it off to let someone else put you at L-1 so he will be the hammer. Pay attention scumbag.

[AGar]

Because EC also said Vezok was scum but refused to vote him.
And did the same with you iirc.

You do not remember correctly.

EtherealCookie votes Magua (#1138)
EthereaCookie votes vezokpiraka (#1270)

For you, no.

He had been calling Vezok scum while still voting you - however - until I called him on the carpet and he fast-switched his vote.

He also has said something to the effect of "everyone is scum." so I take his "reads" and "voting patterns" with a grain of salt and just figure he's going to flip non-town.

I still would much prefer MacDougall dead though (whoever his scumbuddy is? Nice try to get him to coyly move away from attacking me. Coaching is pretty apparent if you watch his posting.)

[AGar]

Quotes as to where you're being coached? Won't happen. It's not quotes I'm seeing, not specific phrases. Rather trends in your posting topics and tone where you move from one topic to the next somewhat sharply and don't transition things smoothly. As if you had ADD with your posting.

[AGar]

Pfft surely you can give us a brief example. How about you elaborate on the one you just suggested? That would be easy! I didn't ask for a case, I asked for some quotes. Why you fail to do this is confusing.

Why would I need to "transition things smoothly"? That would imply that I am selecting my words over cautiously and trying not to trap myself. Which would be a scum thing to do. So you're saying that because I'm not behaving scummily that I'm being coached and am scum? Because I am being boisterous, "ADD" as you say, I am being coached and am scum? I find that the loud, pig headed players are generally town, which is why I have a town read on you.

Why do you not entertain the idea that you are wrong on this? You have been adamant the entire time and have given me no quarter once. Just TRY to have a town read on me. Read my ISO as though you WANT me to be town. You'll make a stronger case to yourself than the one you currently have I assure you. I did just have a look at your ISO in the Upick game and noticed that you used a suicide bomber kill on a townie. So it's not like you're showing great form at the moment. Be at the head of my lynch mob and soon you're gonna start to develop a reputation...

Let's go with your posting content this day;

Starts off voting Andrius for "WoT" and some other shit. Transitions hard to defending hard against me, almost completely dropping your pursuit of an Andrius lynch, instead posting "I'd have killed AGar!" But suddenly, that line of thought just stops. Not progresses or regresses. Just stops. After that you move to "Lol I'm at L-1, just lynch me!" But then that just stops with a hard jolt. Then after the whole "Lol I'm dead, no wait no I'm not" thing, it's "Well AGar and Andrius... they're scum!" But literally your next post (with no posts from me or Andrius between them) says we're both town. Looks like someone checked into the QT, huh? Back to "Ok, I'm going to die, just let it happen." after that, and then back off of that wagon again. After a few more weak tosses at me, you move to MattP "because I wasn't around" even though it logically follows no progression.

No one else really sees this? Am I really alone here?

Maybe I'm stark raving mad, but I'm damn sure that MacDougall is scum.

Also, I really don't give a fuck about my reputation here.

P-Edit: I'd support EC. Not whole-heartedly, but I can agree to it.

[AGar]

VOTE: MattP

If only you read the rest of 1410 you would see that he said "Jokes on you. I'm VT"

Your reaction is clearly scum.

If you paid attention, you'd realize that you're an idiot and basically MattP was valid to a point.

@Vezok

Shut up, you're wrong.

VOTE: Magua

I'd much rather kill him today than fight with everyone about how Macdougall is scum (he still is), because no one is going to actually listen so.

Why is Agar so low on your list Nero? What makes vociferously targeting a player that you think is town such a town read?

Am I a scumread this minute or a townread?


...

..

How about this minute?

Magua, you're at L-1. Someone should hopefully smash your face in sooner than later.

[AGar]

Am I scum with Macdougall? If so, why do you think Macdougall is bussing me instead of me bussing him?If not, why do you think I'm defending Macdougall?

Likelihood of you being scum with Macdougall doesn't matter.

You've been playing in a manner that I've found suspect since either D3 or 4 now. Your attacks have been contrived and you've been "sure" of all sorts of wrong reads while defending players without logistical cause. Claiming to be able to read new players is not a logical reason to out and out defend someone while ignoring the actual points being brought up against someone.

@MattP

If you find me to be scummy, then so be it. But right now, town is likely in a 5:2:2 scenario, and I can 100% guarantee that you are not lynching me today. With absolute certainty to the fullest extent. So right now, I'd suggest focusing on finding another lynch.

My lynchpool is {Magua, EC, Mac}

I'd be shocked if we lynched any less than 2 scum out of those three. Mac has been outlined a million and one times. Magua has his consistent shady play with reasonings behind everything that have seemed extremely contrived, including some severe unexplicable frustration when his lynch-of-choice in Andrius stalls out at one point yesterday. EC has set this game on lol-control and basically just poked in on what he thinks he can fly by on.

Vezok has been completely and utterly disengaged from this game to the point of him actually playing against his wincon right now if he's scum. NC has been a consistently positive read I've had thus far in the game, one of the few I haven't had any wavering feelings on. Kdowns is 99.99999999% conf-town. Bogre and MattP have been conclusively wild-card reads for me, which concerns me, but I'd rather take a shot at a read I have confidence in - an EC, Magua or Mac - rather than one of these two right now.

[AGar]

That's complete bullshit, and is a symptom of you not bothering to think these things through. Even your grouping of (Magua, EtherealCookie, MacDougall) reads like you picking three names out of a hat, and is already prepping for "Magua flips town, need to go after the next target."

Why do your interactions with an unflipped player matter if your isolated actions read as scum-motivated?

[AGar]

If I'm scum, why am I defending MacDougall as town? What is my motivation?

If this really needs an answer (you're a better player than this Magua), there is a plethora of it, starting with dropping WIFOM and red herrings all over and ending with simple town credit and everything in between. A million and one.

---

@MattP

Honestly, Magua is with more likely - imo - with the wildcard remaining scum. I hold to four scum with the flipped traitors and I'd say the Mac-EC pairing would make sense, complete with Mac's late "Oh shit" flips.

@EC

I'd suggest you claim in your next post. In the next 12 hours. I'm off from work, I have all eyes on this game. Fullclaim. Actions. Everything.

Or I smash your little head in.

[AGar]

Two things: 1) Magua's claim is fairly extremely damning.
2) Bogre, your Argelev "family" claim is bullshit.

VOTE: Bogre

[AGar]

Ok. So I am someone else are confirmed town. That persons knows itself and can come out. Only if they want to.
kdows was considered town by most so he is out of the list.

That leaves Nero cain , Mattp and agar.

One of these is confirmed town probably.
Lynch one then tomorrow the other and the game is won.

What is this I don't even...

Vezok, explain to me why Nero is scum. I, as I had stated, planned to vote you today. However, we will be in lylo tomorrow if we mislynch so I'm giving you a chance. Go ahead, tell me.

"Justify my vote for me!"

I'm leaning Vezok, but goddamn Matt, that last post was awful.

[AGar]

Slightly. Not great, but slightly.

[AGar]

Then what the fuck happened.

So let's state the facts.

Last I got blocked again. I started to think it was a jailkeep so someone thought I was town and saved me twice. Because I got blocked two nights in a row it's clear I can't be the last scum.

Kdows was pretty townie all game so I dn't believe he is one of the last scum.

That leaves NC, Agar and Matt.

I thought agar was the jailkeeper whatever and one of either NC or matt.

Assuming Vezok isn't lying, this narrows things down a bit atm.

I know I'm town. Vezok is hypothetical-town right now. Kdowns is fairly-all-but-confirmed-town.

Leaving MattP or Nero Cain.

VOTE: MattP

Nero has been one of my strongest town-reads throughout the game.

Kdowns, your vote should be cast between myself, MattP or NC at this point.

I'd personally advise MattP, unless you have some kind of guilty investigation on myself or NC (which you obv don't).

[AGar]

Hold on a sec, how the heck did you deduce that vezok was town from his post? There is no way to know he was even roleblocked, or who roleblocked him.

I'm preeeetty sure I said "Assuming Vezok is lying" and given the amount I've played with him, he usually doesn't. So at least hypothetically speaking, he isn't scum. I took him off the table for today since we DO seem to have an extra, almost freebie-type lynch going right now.

AGaR, you're being opportunistic as hell. I tried pushing you before but it didn't work out. Just saying everyone, after you lynch me tonight itll be lylo. Don't be so sure it's not AGaR tomorrow. We were sure Magua wasn't mafia and he ended up being mafia, so don't give AGaR the same benefit.

I didn't know getting someone most likely to be scum lynched was being opportunistic? I've been pretty straight across the board at this point have I not? Vezok isn't likely scum (been repeating that to death), Nero Cain is one of my strongest townreads (oh look, there's that again too), I'm not scum (hey look...) and kdowns is all-but confirmed (hmmm, we're seeing a pattern here, sir).

PoE. You were the most null out of all of my reads in the 5 left in this game. Ergo, you - in my eyes and by my reads - are most likely to be scum.

Besides, I had Magua penciled as scum since like... Day 2. Only yesterday did I even slightly relent on that read, and he gave us Eastern-scum on a platter anyways, so we got a two-fer out of the deal, in effect.

[AGar]

EBWOP: Question, why are we assuming there is only one mafia left when there have been three killed from both sides and the round is still going on? Shouldn't there be one more mafia from each side, making us currently be in lylo?

This post rubs me the wrong way in sooo many ways. Starting with the concept that it projects more than just "We might be in LYLO." Including, but not limited to, "Hey, I may be mafia, but shouldn't you also focus on the

other

guy!?!?"

Projection is a pretty reliable tell in multi-scum games, as the scum would like nothing better than to divert attention to the other faction when they're feeling the heat.

Just makes me feel even that much better about the lynch right now.

Aaaanyways, scumMatt does have a point in that we might be in a 3:1:1, but since I'm pretty sure we're lynching scum in Matt right now... that leaves us at 3:1 going into the night, and probably 2:1 LYLO tomorrow.

The other point to note is now Vezok is essentially confirmed as not-scum. He had pretty much the given opportunity to hammer away at Matt, and did not. Killing Matt-town would give him a nice 2:1:1 walk if it is two scum, it'd be a solid move towards LYLO if vezok were the only scum.

I implore Vezok and kdowns to make some kind of statement here. Deadline is some 3 days away, I'd like to see some kind of conversation rolling. No lynch will only end poorly for the town, so we need a lynch of some sort.

[AGar]

Going back over the thread I think that Nero is scum. He was so avid to lynch Vezok and

suddenly

, surprise surprise, as soon as I am brought up by AGaR he realizes how scummy I am and votes for me. He has been under the radar the ENTIRE round. If there is a second mafia it is important to not just drop vezok/AGaR. First off, if there are two mafia left they are of two different factions and therefore why would vezok start a hammer if he doesn't know that we are in lylo since he doesn't know if there is anyone left from the other faction. AGaR has been playing a steady town game, but there is nothing which disproves him as mafia, he pushed for a MacDougall lynch the entire round, and even though the way he did it was town, that's the thing, he seems experienced just like Magua and I think he could be that ballsy based on his ferocity.

So Nero/Vezok is my final guess.

If we are in lylo then it's time to actually try to turn this lynch around.

Vote: Nero

Vezok hammering as a mafia on second mafia? That would benefit him in that

one of the mafia factions would be eliminated, thereby allowing him to kill freely at night without fear of cross-kill.

Your entire "case" is speculation and leaves yourself more outs than Houdini in his easier tricks. Care to actually COMMIT to something?

Vezok is pretty much town, Kdowns is almost 100% conftown.

So again. You're telling me that you're town, and myself and Nero are opposing scumteams yet we've been hitting the same stride for an extremely large portion of the game.

Do you realize how absurd that sounds at ALL?

[AGar]

Did you not see the part where I said you are probs town? You guys nitpick the most absurd stuff. Also, that wouldn't be a good move for vezok, it would mean he would have to make it through two more lynches after this when he is one of the top two suspects. I would never do it.

You want me to commit to something even though I committed to voting Nero? Would you like me swear on the Bible or something that he is scum?

You're not reading what I'm typing.

Vezok is 99.9% town.

And your whole "case" is wishy washy as hell.

[AGar]

Sorry NC

To be fair, I didn't realize I'd kill you too.

[AGar]

I could be killed after the recruitment or by a non-scum shot. I also had to lynch the leader of whatever faction recruited me. I had a bitch of a role honestly.

[AGar]

Sc was the leader yeah.

I also had a 1-shot unlynchable status until I was recruited. Tradeoff was if I died.. I lost.

[AGar]

Also, go second my Paperback Writer nom for Wraith dammit.

[AGar]

Now my loyal subjects, I can grace you all with my true words.

Ok ok ok.

1) Wraith, thanks for an excellent game. Although my role was slightly bastard, and had a fairly strong side to it, I don't think people realize HOW frail my role was. If I died... GG yo. Bremburg anger is legit though. Still, this was an awesome game and it ranks up there on my favorite games list, along with the likes of MoHO. So yeah.

2) NC/Magua: Sorry guys. I feel pretty shoddy, I legit didn't know that you guys would lose in the end. I figured based on my role PM that I would win with you guys, but yeah.

I feel like I wanted to type more, but I can't think of anything now.

/pre-in for the sequel now (I BETTER GET A SPOT WRAITH. VICTOR ARGELEV IS NOT HELD DOWN BY ANYONE BUT VICTOR ARGELEV.)

Wraith and I shot like 5 PMs back and forth for me to fully understand my role, but yeah. Still was fun.

[AGar]

Your role was way to Over powered.
You were and unightkillable survivor that had a 1 shot unlynchable and could get recruited? No way man. Wraith game was awesome but this role was too much.

I wasn't completely invulnerable. If MattP had shot me and not Magua that night, I would've died.