Driving Mafia - GAME OVER - Kentic controls all the cock!

[Fishythefish]

Confirming replacement, real post should be coming within a few hours.

[Fishythefish]

Confirming replacement, real post should be coming within a few hours.

Yeah, not happening tonight I'm afraid. Pretty well caught up, but need to organise my thoughts and write a post tomorrow. For now,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DeasVail
Anda was scummy. I don't think much of the other wagons.

[Fishythefish]

Some thoughts on some people:

farside

The early TM (me) wagon was generally ok, but farside's part in it I didn't like:

ank vezok hasn't muffed up as badly.

vote mask.

for the sake of arguement mask are you trying to policy RBT?

Nah, Mask is null.

Why would you say this is a null tell for mask?

This is a slimy sort of way to push a wagon – without saying so, it implies that what TM was done is scummy unless there's something specific in his meta, and puts an odd burden of proof on Anda. Farside generally gives me a bad feeling. Early on, she asked questions, but not in a way that really looked like she was trying to do anything much. Her case on scooby looks pretty forced. Near the beginning I got the feeling she was really trying to pick a fight, and the case she ends up with is pretty crap. See this post. Farside's interpretation of scooby is unreasonably literal – he clearly didn't mean anything along the lines of “TM's scumtell was so strong that he was 100% scum”, and I struggle to believe that's what farside understood. Her posts on CoolDog make a bit more sense, but they're

lazy

– I get no sense that farside cares that much about lynching anyone in particular. This isn't what I expect from townfarside at all. She's my only strong scumread.

anka

I think ank's play was pretty scummy. He voted vezok, which looked totally random, and then voted kiwi, which he said wasn't, but was for the same reason. This is a pretty minor contradiction, but I didn't like his reaction to being called out on it – rather than admitting he'd made a mistake or explaining, he said “I'll explain my votes when it becomes relevant”, which is just trying to shut down discussion. Then he rather tied himself up in knots, and ended up claiming that his first vote wasn't random. Which it really clearly was – vezok hadn't even posted yet. He then claimed that the reason was that vezok hadn't taken a stance. After no posts, and 3 hours.

This whole affair started out as a triviality, but ank never turned round and said “yeah, my bad, I didn't quite mean that.” To me, that smacks of scum who is afraid of being seen to backtrack. His only vote was a straight up OMGUS on Cooldog.

Deas hasn't affected this read much. Defending Ank/himself is much what you'd expect from town or scum here. Overall, this slot is scummy.

CoolDog

CD's stance on Anka seems fine to me. I really don't see why people think he's scum.

Stevie

Miller point: meh. Disbelieving two millers is probably wrong, doesn't seem all that scummy.
Shift to other reasons for Kcda with no reasoning: meh. He gave reasons in iso 7, they weren't awful.
Slow and steady shift to CD: pretty convincing, actually. Looks planned. Stevie got angry when people questioned his switch, which kind of fits with him thinking “I've prepared the ground, noone can question this switch.”

For the wagons, I'm pretty sure that I'll vote Anka >> Stevie >> CD.

I'll read some other people more thoroughly, hopefully tomorrow. A good few people in this game look town, which is nice.

[Fishythefish]

No. I think we should be able to get a better lynch than that.

[Fishythefish]

Ank said this about his vote on vezok:

I will not answer your question since you answered yourself in your last post. I will, however, state why they weren't RVS. The connection is that both were players that had yet to have a significant stance. The first vote was partly RVS in that regard, since near everyone was in that list. When I voted for Kiwieagle, all he had was a vote with nothing else. I was getting reactions so I could more easily get reads.

Overall, it succeeded.

This seems a massive stretch to me. When Ank voted vezok, half the players in the game hadn't. To say his vote was non-random is just ridiculous. He then linked this to his second vote. I think he felt the need to justify that, and so had to come up a reason for his original, totally random votes.

"The reactions to it would be interesting" is an excuse for anything. Ank was evading the question.

I don't think OMGUS is a scumtell. But pure OMGUS being your only vote means you haven't done much scumhunting, which is a scumtell.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy seems really undedicated. Calls Far his only strong scum read but doesn't even try to push a waggon on her but goes all "which existing waggon could I hop on?"....

Look at the votecount, and the deadline. Replacing in at this point in the day, I'm not going to try to start a new wagon.

@Fishy in regards to post 375:

Ummm I asked Anak my question because his post told me nothing. It was fluff in my view at the time.
It had nothing to do with The Mask.
Unreasonable literal? He said no town would ever overanalisys. He voted for TM. How else would you interpret it?

I care about lynching CD. I believe he is scum. I made a case. I'm just not screaming and ranting because it has never done me a lick of good in any game and I'm too busy to argue with people about why they are wrong and I'm right.

I can't believe people are holding onto Anka for early votes but said nothing about Vail. I'm sensing some bad pushing for weak reasoning from players that can player better *coughfishycough*

re: Anka question; so why did you ask the question like that? "Why is this a null tell for Mask"? Maybe I'm being touchy about wagons on me, but it sure sounds like you're implying it's not generally a null tell.

---

re: scooby
He said no town would ever overanalyse, in the course of discussing whether overanalysis is a scumtell. When he had already said that his first vote was for pretty weak reasons, as you'd expect on Day 1. I think it's pretty clear he didn't mean anything as strong as the interpretation you put on it. He later said "Town should never do it. Do you seriously think only scum make scumtells?" - making it clear that he's treating overanalysis as any other scumtell - indicative of scum, but not 100%. I think your interpretation is a stretch.

---

re: CD
I'm not expecting you "scream and rant". I am expecting you to argue with people about why they are wrong and you are right, or make a solid case. I never felt here you've said "CD's scum, here's why, vote him". You originally voted him over unexplained bandwagonning, and since then you've been gradually building on the case with minor points. Your points seem to be:
- Pushing case on ank too hard for too long. (199)
- Unexplained vote on Stevie. (207)
- "Cherry picking" in his catchup post (303)
- Hypocrisy (criticising weak reads when his reads were weak). (362)
- Contradiction (saying he was reading, but knowing people's reads were weak). (362)
I understand the first, thought I don't agree with it, but the rest of these points vary between meh and awful. The second is a weak scumtell at best - unexplained bandwagonning is hardly rare. The third is very generic - can you explain what you mean here please? The fourth isn't a scumtell for two obvious reasons - CD wouldn't think his own reads are weak, and hypocrisy just isn't any sort of scumtell anyway. The last is a pretty non-existent contradiction; no reason you shouldn't know something about the game, but need to reread.

This drip, drip of weak points isn't something I'd expect from a town player who I consider competent. It's something I'd expect from scum trying to justify their position.

A note on the third point: CD's catchup post seemed ok to me, but I haven't been through it following links and thinking hard about each - I don't have the time. I'd very much like an answer to the question of what you mean by cherry picking.

---
re: Anka

Anka's scumminess came early, but that doesn't make it weak. He tangled himself up to the point where he told a pretty clear lie about his first vote.
*Rereads DV*
Yeah, DV looks pretty good here. His defence is as a townie's should be; I feel he's trying to understand and respond to the case on him, rather than just avoid a lynch. Nothing overwhelming, but makes me less up for his lynch.

Hmmmm. That makes DV closer to null to me. But I still rather him to CD; mostly because I think the wagon on CD is scumdriven.

@RBT:

at this stage of the day, the lynch is CD or DV. Come vote DV!

[Fishythefish]

Where are you saying scooby backtracked? From his initial vote on TM, or from post 175 (when he said "that's something town never do" or w/e)?

---

On the Stevie vote: at that point, there were three bandwagons bigger than CD's, and his only voters were two of them. Hardly a position to be scared of the lynch. I don't see a reason to disbelieve CD when he says it was a pressure vote. And if it was, he wasn't really following RBT anyway. I guess I can see why you dislike this, though.

On post 303: oops, missed the bottom of 362 at some point. I agree with you there that what he called you defending wasn't. Your question then about why he didn't call out another instance of defending is also a stretch; it's not defending either. Him calling your posting fluff is a bit off. It's how I felt at the beginning of the game, but definitely not by that point.

362 seems to be defending the points against you, which to be fair are pretty bad. I don't think it shows at all that his whole reread post is cherry picking, or not reading the game.

His ranty post said he was going to reread! It can be summarised as "meta is BS, there's little content around, that's partly my fault, I'll do more soon". You can accuse CD of being pretty useless for a while, and I'd agree, but it's just not true that he was ranting about other people's weak cases while avoiding rereading himself.

[Fishythefish]

Some of the case on CD is ok. Most is pretty crap.

As for something that looks town; "something that scum would never ever say" is a tough ask, and there's nothing about CD's play that makes me think he's town. But what makes me think he probably is going to flip town is the wagon on him. There's one core reason for it - CD's attack on Anka - and the wagon on him has been pushed really hard. I don't think it feels like a scum wagon at all.

[Fishythefish]

WHY IF THERE ARE SCUM ON HIS WAGON AND THEY AREN'T BUSSING WHY ARE THEY NOT KEEPING HIM AROUND FOR HIM TO SCREW UP AND BECOME LYNCH FODDER IN LYLO?

One obvious reason: if Anka is scum.

[Fishythefish]

Yep, DV looks fairly town. Anka looked fairly scummy. As a slot, I think they look scummy than CD. If you're implying I should be voting only on what DV has done, I totally disagree.

[Fishythefish]

Agreed. For me, DV is a bit more likely to be scum than the average; I think his performance has been townish but not spectacularly so, while Anka was fairly scummy.

[Fishythefish]

Yep, SC is scum. At the end of yesterday, SC said he was happy with DV's answer to his questions. I didn't at all get the impression he thought DV was “flailing like mad”, but that's what he called him this morning. And then he backtracked on that, saying:

Then, SC seems satisfied with Deus' answer in 449, and hammers CD. Followed by a sudden vote back on Deus as Day 2 starts.

The timing of the votes, as well as the way SC becomes satisfied with DV and then votes back immeidately just doesn't go as town votes to me. I don't know if its bussing a partner or not, but it's definitely a scum vote.

One action is insufficient to get you off my suspect list. You have to have a general town play, which Ankamius and DeasVail do not have.

This doesn't fit in at all with saying that DV was flailing like mad yesterday. I'm really not liking SC's response here; he tries to fob the wagon off with "I'll respond when there's a case on me", and then goes back to "DV is generally scummy, so it's fine, OK?", rather than answer what people are actually saying.

@SC: when do you think DV was flailing? What has DV (not Anka) done that makes you think that slot is scum?

VOTE: SC

Questions for other people:

NS abandons strong reads a lot; he's moved from a strong scumread on Stevie, to pushing for the DV lynch, to voting CD, and now to declaring SC is scum.

@NS: what do you now think of Stevie, and why haven't you mentioned him? Why did you want DV dead? Why did you change to CD? Why is SC scum?

@DV: why Nocmen?

@vezok: why do you think 469 is bussing?

[Fishythefish]

@Fishy, I still get the feeling that he's scum for some reason and I'm not liking how quickly this SC wagon has formed.

Can you expand at all on what that reason is?

What changed between 481 and 489 to make you happy with voting SC again?

[Fishythefish]

Why did you move your vote for a bit, then move it back?

@NS: please respond to my question in 487.

@kiwi: you had strong scumreads on anka and stevie yesterday. Why haven't you mentioned either today? It seems particularly odd that you would vote NS right after Stevie did the same, and not mention your scumread on him at all.

[Fishythefish]

@DV: OK.

Questions for other people:

NS abandons strong reads a lot; he's moved from a strong scumread on Stevie, to pushing for the DV lynch, to voting CD, and now to declaring SC is scum.

@NS: what do you now think of Stevie, and why haven't you mentioned him? Why did you want DV dead? Why did you change to CD? Why is SC scum?

Haven't looked at Stevie lately; will do that later, in tandem with other players.

DV is scummish for voting with no reasoning immediately upon replacing in.

I re-read; CD needed my vote. Simple as that.

SC is almost always scum.

All these read changes seem really sudden. You have a strong scumread, then you drop it without a backward glance. It doesn't feel like you really believe in your reads.

[Fishythefish]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NS

SC's looking good on the last couple of pages. NS still hasn't said anything that convinces me that he believes a word he says.

[Fishythefish]

I updated my list

like
ankamius
stevie
kiwieafle
fishy
petroleum

undecided
NS
Shadow dancer

dont like
vezo
rice
nocmen
strangercoug

Not many changes. The two replacementes are stil town. I think Coug is still scum and I would like a claim.

Vote: StrangerCoug.

Why? A list with no reasons is completely useless, and just a way of not actually telling us what you think about anything.

[Fishythefish]

Next time I should not post anything. Would it be better?

It would be about the same. If you don't tell us your reasons, we don't know which players are scummiest, noone can discuss or argue with your reads and you can't persuade anyone. I look forward to seeing your reasoning.

As for why I unvoted; SC has looked pretty good today. The way he's backtracked over DV since he's been attacked (513, 532, 534) a) fits very well with my picture of this game, and b) is the kind of thing that would draw attention to scum. I'd expect scum here to be explaining themselves, and trying to be consistent from here on; SC looks like he's actually trying to work out who's scum. Also, I think NS is really scummy.

[Fishythefish]

Prod dodge.

kiwi here reminds me of my last game with him, where I was convinced he was scum and I was wrong. I'll look into that when I get some time (most likely Monday).

[Fishythefish]

@NS: do you have flavour? What's your name?

[Fishythefish]

@NS: if you had an innocent on Stevie, why did you post these:

Haven't looked at Stevie lately; will do that later, in tandem with other players.

These two shining examples of scumminess far outshine Stevie, who, while less luminous, is still in my notes to be watched.

Aside from your claim, what do you now think of DV? You said he was a "shining example of scumminess" - why haven't you mentioned him today?

I'm very surprised about the number of people who believe NS without question. I think he could easily be scum trying to avoid the lynch. He's still given bugger all to back up his reads. There's nothing about his claim that makes it particularly likely to be true. Sure, it explains away one of his unexplained shifts of reads, but aside from that it doesn't make him any less likely to be scum.

@RBT, SC, vezok, kiwi: why do you believe NS? "There isn't a reason not to" is a pretty crap reason - what makes you think it isn't a fakeclaim?

kiwi should respond to PJ's questions in 620. I'm having great difficulty deciding about kiwi - rather clouded by my recent game with him. Not at all sure that anything he's doing here is a scumtell for him.

[Fishythefish]

@RBT, SC, vezok, kiwi: why do you believe NS? "There isn't a reason not to" is a pretty crap reason - what makes you think it isn't a fakeclaim?

As I remember saying, it explains why he stopped pursuing StevieT92.

Yes, it does. But it's hardly a claim that would be surprising from scum under pressure for flipping on Stevie. It's pretty obvious to me that this claim could come either from scumNS or townNS - what about the claim means that scum wouldn't have made it?