Final Fantasy 6 Mafia - Game Over

[TheFool]

VOTE: Twilight Sparkle
Hooray for bandwagons!

Timeater, why the claim?

[TheFool]

Considering the magicite/relics stuff mentioned in the rules, it seems kinda silly to assume that everyone also has their own active ability.

[TheFool]

VOTE: Zeek

I think his discussion (in 13) of Theamateur's point seems less like idiocy and more like a self-conscious, inappropriate attempt to justify a "serious" page 1 vote. I also think his referencing of key arguments to other players/games is inappropriate, and not benignly.

Also, the notion that Gogo would at least start VT should not be surprising to anyone who knows FFVI. Not sure what the status all the players who seem confused by the claim is re: this detail.

Now I will read page 2.

Also agreed, something feels off about the way he's pushing the point.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zeek

[TheFool]

Whoops.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zeek

[TheFool]

Zeek, if you've never played the game, flavor speculation is probably not the way to go. Flavor speculation in a game 4 pages in with no flips that was specifically referenced as a bastard game in the sign-ups is incredibly silly.

pidgey's 104 is pretty weak, regurgitating points without actually taking a stance.

amatuer's 105/115 is fun. More games need completely unfounded jester speculation.

So are people not seeing Zeek's desperate measures

Where?

I still dont get how trying to out as many power roles as possible page 1 is town.

In all fairness, it's reasonable to assume that claiming VT isn't going to cause everyone else to go HOLY CRAP NOT ME!!

Do you think his play is both jesterish and devious enough to manipulate role reveals?

I wish I had like 6 votes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pidgey

[TheFool]

Now im interested to know what's your opinion on the vanilla town claim. You probably have a strong stance on whether he is town or scum since you found my post weak

Getting a town vibe from it, personally, not buying the scum motivation there.

Point taken, though.

As for the rest of the game, I'm having serious trouble discerning VI from scummy here, and all the flavor speculation is dull. Feysal is town for good points and a bitchin avatar, MacDougall is town for whatever the hell happened there, and Iec is scummy for making posts like 202 while cearly not being a VI.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Iecerint

Zeek is also scummy for previous reasons, but until he posts more there's not much to yell about.

[TheFool]

Oh right, I forgot, TS is also town.

[TheFool]

What is the VI-y part?

Mostly summed up by Parama in 203. Why are you following the weird Kise-slipped-the-mafia-QT-inthread train of thought?

[TheFool]

Then I am confused.

[TheFool]

Parama's 203 is based on a misreading of my 202. I address the discrepancies in 211 and the Kise back-and-forth.

I completely misread much of that conversation, and I apologize. D:

Reads as per request:

Scum: Mist Beauty, funkybike
Town: Feysal, TS (and MacDougall)

More content from redff, dddin, and funkybike would be awesome.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike1

[TheFool]

Man, I lost touch with this game for a couple days and am having serious trouble getting back into it. Apologies for the lack of posts.

I'm thinking Zeek looks pretty town right now, though I don't agree with the case on Feysal it looks like legit scumhunting to me.

I like the bike lynch, not as sold on the theam wagon, but the people on the wagon are vaguely townie, so I dunno.

Pidgey, could you sum up your suspicion of theam?

[TheFool]

Oh hey, that's pretty cool.

[TheFool]

I honestly don't have much to say about the Fenrir thing. The sort of gambit you're talking about seems crazy to me, and I have trouble even understanding why I'd do something like that, but that whole argument is WIFOM so I'm not sure what to say.

If you're looking at weird power role usage, I still think MacDougall's insistence that he be the one to hammer Kublai, and his subsequent self-watch (instead of watching any of the 4 claimed power roles (one of which died that night)) is seriously shifty. I just don't see that as a town move.

Mist's recent post would be kinda scummy if it hadn't been posted by Mist. MacD's shrug and wagon hop irks me.

I am prepared to vote MacDougall, and doubt my mind will change soon short of some crazy revelation. That said, this has kinda been a game of crazy revelations, so I agree with WC that more discussion is good.

Feysal, if you're reading this, the archive is totally badass. Anyone here who hasn't checked it out yet should, I was picturing something way clunkier than this. I love the avatars.

[TheFool]

I'm feeling pretty sure we've only got one scum left, if only because so many pairs don't make sense. I've also got a pretty good town read on SoO, strengthened by how he kept things moving post-crash. If we're looking for a a duo, I'd wager on MacD-Mist first, maybe MacD-WC.

Why MacD-SoO specifically? Is there some connection I missed?

MacD - then why are you voting for me?

[TheFool]

I think diddin is scum because SoO and TheFool look town through play and claim respectively, despite both being more likely.

By claim, you presumably mean my doc claim in regards to the no-kill night 7. You realize, though, that I protected diddin?

Also, how is SoO 'more likely' scum if his play itself is what dissuades you?

[TheFool]

Please keep in mind, WC, that I had no way of knowing in advance that MB wasn't going to jail. The hypothetical no-kill would thus have false-cleared me OR Mist.

Carbuncle would've landed in TE's hands, IIRC. He didn't mention it before he died.

[TheFool]

N1- innocent on redFF
N2- innocent on Zeek
N3- Tried to investigate SoO, no result
N4- Tried to investigate amateur, no result
N5- guilty on TS
N6- innocent on Wrath
N7- innocent on Mist
N8- tried to investigate McD, no result

[TheFool]

Wow, Ghostlin, thanks for stepping in. Good luck on the readthrough, it's a bit large.

SoO makes some good points about Mist. For what it's worth, TE did confirm that Mist was itemless (page 111). Would being a flavor godfather be a passive thing?

I've had trouble reading Mist all game. There's so much there to focus on that I'm not really sure any of it's scum-driven as opposed to crazy playstyle tells.

I could see a Mist lynch, though I prefer a MacD lynch. I think the case is better there, and I think the positioning is better as well, since most of the possible remaining teams of two have a MacDougall in them.

[TheFool]

Yeah, I've been thinking Carbunkle may have been their roleblock, and got degraded to uselessness bouncing to Timeater and back.

Getting pissy and trading out would be a bizarre thing for a scum player to do though.

From the looks of it, Mist siteflaked, so her disappearance might not be game-related.

It makes sense that a GF would be passive, since diddin's a flavor cop so an innocent would just have a different name.

Hopefully bigger post tomorrow.

[TheFool]

To clarify, I thought MD was town for how he handled the reveal (brought it up early in response to a wagon he disagreed with, used it to dissuade said wagon, left the third member unmentioned). My "MD is town for that" post comes in before the mod-punishment happened; it was thoroughly TS pushing the "losing your vote = town" concept.

I've been doing a re-skim of the thread that I'd hoped to finish today, might get it done tomorrow. Early game WC reads pretty town in retrospect, and Day 3 Mist seriously, SERIOUSLY deserves a lynch, but:

Funkybike's flip of "Powerhouse Leader" seems to indicate a godfather there

Embarrassingly, I hadn't noticed he'd flipped 'Leader' until just now, and I can see the argument there. I'm also reluctant to be the idiot that mislynches a cop-confirmed innocent twice in one game. :P

More notes tomorrow-ish when I finish the re-skim, but at the very least I feel like it's strengthening the "MD or Mist" dichotomy.

[TheFool]

spyrex being a light switch where he can switch on and off his ascetic buff is baloney.

Could somebody look at pages 143-145 and tell me where Mist gets the idea that the ascetic is switchable? SpyreX mentions it turning off if he uses his active ability, but specifically mentions he hasn't, and that's not really the same as 'switch on and off'.

Which might be relevant, since it possibly explains the 'mistake' about SpyreX's ability: SRG turned it off, and Spy wasn't informed or forgot.

Am I reading too much into this?

[TheFool]

Finished my re-skim today. Thoughts (sorry for the wall):

MacD really does look town surrounding the neighbor-reveal. Uses it to dissuade a wagon on town-Kise.

Interactions between MacD and TS early on are probably important, but I don't know what to make of them. Biggest question there is, "Would TS goes to such lengths to call a scumbuddy obv-town?"

During TE's 2 town, 2 scum plan, TS lists funky and Wrath as scum, not sure he'd go for a double bus there
Between that and the way TS sets up a WC lynch if funky flips scum makes me really feel like WC is town.

Did town ever come to some conclusion on why Kise was offed? If it was over his TS case, that hints towards scum in the neighborhood to have seen the bulk of it.

Mist claims scum, TE believes it is out of character.

Mist thinking Pidgey 'knows' that her role is a fakeclaim for Kefka is still seriously weird.
...her reaction to the nameclaim starts out town-soundy, but becomes both waffley ("nameclaim might be bad, but it's okay if people agree") and a bit fearmongery ("there may be crazy recruitment roles waiting in the wings")
...and then she claims scum again a page later.
...and the disconnect between being Strago and thinking Pidgey knew Strago was a fakeclaim is seriously understated at the time.

What is up with page 70? MacD is sure Mist is scum, she self-votes, he backs off?

Interesting that Mist almost gets lynched with (assuming SoO is town) the first five votes at least being town.
And then it peters out in favor of three different town wagons.
Later on she pops up again, to saved at the last moment by a KK lynch, led by herself and TS.

SpyreX comes in, says town-MD and scum-MB. Scumlist is Mist, Wrath, Fool, Iec, Zeek.

MacD's huge case on TE is interesting. The fact that both SpyreX and TS step in to explicitly point out that it makes him town is also interesting.

SpyreX pretty directly sold on MD-town, and prodding at MB-scum.

diddin thinks MacD is "very very likely town"..

Mist faux-replaces out, but doesn't follow through even with a willing replacee on hand. Very interesting.

SoO pegs both TS and Spy as scum on page 117, before either hits significant scrutiny. Cool.

MacD's constant back-and-forth during Wc vs. Fool still concerns me. It's like he picks a different stance every post.
Switches stance again after the doc claim; WC's anger that the wagon is dissolving over it reads legit and town.

TS vs. MacD is pretty fierce, but since it comes after a point where TS seems to legitimately believe MacD is 'caught', could easily be bussing. Fits with how TS slammed funky early on, as well.

Hmm.. right after TS's first big volley, MacD says "Lol looks like I have no friends left then. What's the point of trying to defend myself." Commentary about scummate betrayal?

Whereas SpyreX continues on with Mist, even pointing out the deflected wagon.

I STILL hate MacD's post at the bottom of 141. "I'm not scum but if I was someone would be bussing me, but who?", what does that mean? (also, the answer was "TS")

And how he defends SpyreX and tries to implicate TE with a hypothetical bus. (which is earmarked by TS)

Post SpyreX and TS being caught, both MacD and Mist seem strangely defeatist. Mist keeps trying to divert the wagons.

[TheFool]

tl;dr: scum is between MacD and MB, either one or maybe both.

WC and SoO look pretty town on the reread. diddin also has townie moments, wish he were more visible. But name cop/item cop/voyeur feels right to me setup-spec wise.

Mist would get my vote in a heartbeat if it weren't for the investigation. There's a lot of bad stuff there, even ignoring the acerbic playstyle.

She might have just not believed his claim that his passive ability deactivates when he uses an active ability, which makes sense for her not to believe, because it's uhh not believable?

He also stated that he was absolutely certain that he was ascetic; why would her assumption be that he turned it off?

[TheFool]

Why would MacD self-target on a watch? It's like the worst play ever, only slightly less if you are scum. Why did that item disappear after one use while all others remained with less effectiveness. Something is wrong with that story. It doesn't feel right.

Agreed, it especially doesn't match up with Mist's every-other-day JK, considering the Queen's Guard should have degraded twice (Iec > TS > Mist).

@WC, to your point about MacD's claim of his magicite being a 1 time...yeh that is strange, but no more stranger than Fool's claim of going from BP to a steal ability...

If SpyreX's claim was even half-honest, it's possible that Fenrir was also both a passive bulletproof and an active item thief. I'd say maybe Fenrir was never bulletproof at all, but bulletproof is such a dumb fakeclaim I dunno.

..I wish Timeater had been able to tell us about Carbunkle before he died.

also, i think this was reason for Kise's death on N1 (i think the Fool asked about it recently?) :

Ah, good catch.

when it got pretty crazy (page 151 - 153) MB faked her vote change to TS, to make it look like she was trying to vote with town. When Pidgey called her out on it she said, yeh that makes Pidge town...So instead of really voting for TS or even Spyrex, MB instead pushed real hard on page 153 with a WoT case on TheAm...she tried hard to divert both cases over to TheAm.

If I remember right, she makes a brief diddin push around the same time, and then claims to have been kidding.

I'd like to hear something from Ghostlin; his thoughts could be useful.

[TheFool]

Why would MacD self-target on a watch? It's like the worst play ever, only slightly less if you are scum. Why did that item disappear after one use while all others remained with less effectiveness. Something is wrong with that story. It doesn't feel right.

Agreed, it especially doesn't match up with Mist's every-other-day JK, considering the Queen's Guard should have degraded twice (Iec > TS > Mist).

Mist lied then.

Possibly. The whole thing's weird, really. We've got:

Doc: Unlimited use --> every other day use
Jailkeeper: Unlimited use --> ??? --> every other day, but not the first
Voyeur: Unlimited use --> one-shot
Item cop: Crazy algebraic equation, 'how many items' --> unlimited single targets, 'do they have items'

[TheFool]

General Leo, Devoted Soldier.

[TheFool]

Agreed, he softclaimed Day 2 and hardclaimed Day 3, both times to try to prevent the lynch of a townie.

[TheFool]

I started out without items, TE confirmed that Mist did as well, my steal confirms SoO is currently itemless, and he also claimed VT.

TS had Kise's Magitek And Iec's Queen's Guard. If we assume he did all the killings up to his death, Parama was probably VT. Pidgey didn't claim getting anything from Nexus (I forget if he explicitly claimed getting nothing), so probably VT there as well.

So for the original setup, we've got:

Confirmed Town:
Item Cop
Voyeur
Doctor
Modified Jailkeeper
Vig
1 Neighbor
3 Vanillas
2 Probably Vanillas

Unconfirmed:
Name Cop
2 Neighbors
3 Vanillas

Confirmed Scum:
Item Thief/Bulletproof?
Strongman
"Carbunkle"

Can any one else compile the other night actions?

Doc Protects
Zeek:
N1 Pidgey
N2 Pidgey
Fool:
N3 Diddin
N4 ---
N5 Timeater
N6 ---
N7 Diddin
N8 ---

[TheFool]

Did some digging, found Iec's claim.

Jailkeeper:
Iec:
N1 Timeater
N2 Katsuki
N3 Pidgey
N4 ???
TS:
N5 ???
Mist:
N6 couldn't use
N7 didn't use
N8 diddin

[TheFool]

Voyeur:
Feysal/KK:
N1 Kise was mafia killed
N2 Iec was not targetted
N3 Mist was item copped
MacD:
N4 MacD was not targetted
(item dissapeared)

Name Cop
diddin:
N1- innocent on redFF
N2- innocent on Zeek
N3- Tried to investigate SoO, no result
N4- Tried to investigate amateur, no result
N5- guilty on TS
N6- innocent on Wrath
N7- innocent on Mist
N8- tried to investigate McD, no result

Don't have the time to brave going through every Timeater post for Item Cop results right now.

[TheFool]

The mod stated that the modkill functioned like a lynch, item-wise. Going by the theory that it alternates between wagon leader and hammerer, Carbunkle should have gone to Timeater, and then presumably back to scum when they night killed him.

[TheFool]

It said that I received no items.

4 days until deadline, by the way.

[TheFool]

True, but when Mist asks the mod how the modkill worked with items, TE mentioned that that was a bad question to ask. I think he was trying to keep quiet about where Carbunkle ended up, for some reason.

Also, those two days were the really fast TS/Matias lynches, we basically zipped in and out of night phases there.

[TheFool]

@Fool, so your pm didn't say that i had nothing, just that you rec'd nothing, right?

Correct.

[TheFool]

The mod confirmed that items passed the same as usual, but it is true that we don't know for certain that TE ended up with it.

TS had Bahamut, Fenrir, Magitek, and Queen's Guard. Which, according to claims, ended up with diddin, Fool, theam (confirmed), and Mist, respectively.

Incidentally, those people were last, first, second, and second to last on the wagon, respectively.

I'm also curious where SoO is going with this.

[TheFool]

Also since when does having scum reads on everyone make me scum?

Well yeah, leaving yourself open for basically every possible avenue is kinda scummy.

Your focus on diddin is interesting as well, especially when you're still pushing him but voting for an easier target. It fits well with MacDougall-scum trying to push the town to get rid of diddin-town for him before diddin's next result comes in.

Your vote for Kunk with nothing more than 'simply the most likely' seems bus-ish to me, coming in right after Mist goes under deeper scrutiny. You've indicated nothing in the past about wanting to lynch Mist/Kunk that I can find. Even as far as godfather-hunting goes, you've indicated before that you find WC scummier than Mist. What happened?

...come to look at it, it's even WC you're arguing with in that very post. Your Kunk vote is seriously out of nowhere.

I would vote MacD right now if it wouldn't stick him at L-1. I'd be okay with a Kunk lynch as well. If possible, SoO should be the wagon leader.

[TheFool]

Agreed that posts from SoO/diddin would be nice, less than a day until deadline though.

[TheFool]

The fact that neither WC and SoO quickhammered, and diddin pulled off to prevent it makes me feel pretty good about this.

VOTE: MacDougall

[TheFool]

Huh? I knew that wasn't a hammer. The last vote count was half a page ago, how would I miscount that?

We're 13 hours from deadline, dude. Voting for the person I've been talking about voting for weeks is justified.

[TheFool]

Heading to work now though, be back later tonight.

[TheFool]

Ah damn. Knew I should've went for Kunk, doubt I would've aimed for diddin after that anyway. Sorry town :(

Did you guys just not think of the fake guilty for the win Night 8?

I also want to see the Dead QT, I've been wondering how bad it must be for weeks now.

[TheFool]

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/Jf6XdCYUyZt knock yourself out.
btw heres from post 1.http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/Jf6XdCYUyZt/p015.001

Thanks, that was a fun read. Less rage than I'd expected, actually.

From the Desk of the 'I'm going to be kicking myself post-game' department -

An unknown source (yeah, right) sent me the following Night action PM:

"I will use Fenrir's item steal ability on sword_of_omens tonight.

..and swallow my paranoia at some sort of diddin/Mist scumteam."

Yeah, pretty much. Of course, I was thinking 'Mist deliberately "forgets" to action so diddin's survival is justified for longer". Apparently the truth is more painful?

[TheFool]

Of course, this can be hard to do when you're not sure who else is scum. Also, town had to deduce that the no-kills were caused by scum choosing or failing to make a kill.

Having seen the extent of the setup, I don't feel too bad about feeling left in the dark. Looks like we were wrong on just about everything to some degree. I should've heeded my own early-game warnings about the set-up being too bastardy to predict.

Thanks for modding MoI, I had fun. That's a really interesting setup there that we kinda managed to gut by lynching the cop, lynching the doc, and outing every single town power role by the end of Day 4.

Also agreed, SoO played a good game there.